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Hall of Fame Ballot


I VOTED (PLEASE SELECT THIS EVEN IF YOU VOTE FOR NOBODY) 23 votes

Barry Bonds 17 votes

Chris Carpenter 0 votes

Roger Clemens 11 votes

Johnny Damon 0 votes

Vladimir Guerrero 20 votes

Livan Hernandez 0 votes

Trevor Hoffman 13 votes

Orlando Hudson 0 votes

Aubrey Huff 0 votes

Jason Isringhausen 0 votes

Andruw Jones 5 votes

Chipper Jones 26 votes

Jeff Kent 8 votes

Carlos Lee 0 votes

Brad Lidge 0 votes

Edgar Martinez 16 votes

Hideki Matsui 1 votes

Fred McGriff 2 votes

Kevin Millwood 0 votes

Jamie Moyer 1 votes

Mike Mussina 8 votes

Manny Ramirez 13 votes

Scott Rolen 4 votes

Johan Santana 5 votes

Curt Schilling 11 votes

Gary Sheffield 6 votes

Sammy Sosa 5 votes

Jim Thome 23 votes

Omar Vizquel 4 votes

Billy Wagner 3 votes

Larry Walker 13 votes

Kerry Wood 0 votes

Carlos Zambrano 0 votes

41Forever
Nov 20 2017 06:13 PM

Lots of Mets connections on the HOF ballot!


Barry Bonds
Chris Carpenter
Roger Clemens
Johnny Damon
Vladimir Guerrero
Livan Hernandez
Trevor Hoffman
Orlando Hudson
Aubrey Huff
Jason Isringhausen
Andruw Jones
Chipper Jones
Jeff Kent
Carlos Lee
Brad Lidge
Edgar Martinez
Hideki Matsui
Fred McGriff
Kevin Millwood
Jamie Moyer
Mike Mussina
Manny Ramirez
Scott Rolen
Johan Santana
Curt Schilling
Gary Sheffield
Sammy Sosa
Jim Thome
Omar Vizquel
Billy Wagner
Larry Walker
Kerry Wood
Carlos Zambrano

seawolf17
Nov 20 2017 07:33 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Bonds, Guerrero, Hoffman, Chipper, Kent, Edgar, Manny, Sosa, Thome, Walker.

I've come full circle on Bonds (and Sosa and Manny, for that matter). I don't think you can leave them out. (At the same time, I recognize my hypocrisy in keeping Clemens off my list just because I don't like him.)

dgwphotography
Nov 20 2017 07:45 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Guerrero, Hoffman, Chipper, Kent, Thome.

d'Kong76
Nov 20 2017 07:47 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

The HOF should appoint a temporary Super Special Situation Committee that
has full power to elect all the super-'roiders in at the same time without voting
and be done with it. Make it clear that going forward no one with a 'roided history
will be eligible for the HOF ever again. Bing, bang, boom...

Fuck it, put Rose in too... sick of that whole saga as well.

Centerfield
Nov 20 2017 07:53 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Are you allowed to consider Matsui's career in Japan? His US career doesn't put him anywhere near the HoF.

I wonder how they will treat that.

Frayed Knot
Nov 20 2017 07:59 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

It should be MLB only.
Ichiro gets in via that, Matsui not.

Centerfield
Nov 20 2017 08:02 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Frayed Knot wrote:
It should be MLB only.
Ichiro gets in via that, Matsui not.


I tend to agree. I just wonder how writers will treat it. Him being an MFY and all, I can see some bending backwards to stretch it.

For what it's worth, it's the National Baseball Hall of Fame:

The National Baseball Hall of Fame is a nonprofit committed to preserving the history of America’s pastime and celebrating the legendary players, managers, umpires and executives who have made the game a fan favorite for more than a century. Help the memories live on and celebrate the game you love!


This is part of why you can distinguish between the Negro Leagues, and the leagues in Japan.

Ceetar
Nov 20 2017 08:07 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

must be Bonds first time on the ballot, he's a shoe in.

Frayed Knot
Nov 20 2017 08:14 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Centerfield wrote:
Frayed Knot wrote:
It should be MLB only.
Ichiro gets in via that, Matsui not.


I tend to agree. I just wonder how writers will treat it. Him being an MFY and all, I can see some bending backwards to stretch it.


He had the bare minimum 10 seasons* to qualify and if you're going to get in without longevity that shortened career needs to be better than just good, it needs to be Koufax / Kiner / Jackie / Hack Wilson good.
Instead, in a hitter's era he amassed 175 HRs, .282 BA, two back of the ballot MVP notices, and led the league in nothing ever except games played his first three seasons (probably tied w/others)

He had a nice run for a guy who didn't show up here until age 29, but I don't see how he gets remotely close to induction.




* really only 8 full ones, with 1 season under 200 ABs and another < 100

86-Dreamer
Nov 20 2017 08:23 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

bonds, clemens, chipper, schilling, mussina, walker, thome, rolen, andruw and Vlad

Edgy MD
Nov 20 2017 08:30 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edited for polling.

seawolf17
Nov 20 2017 08:46 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy MD wrote:
Edited for polling.

Added "I VOTED" at the top so we can get a true percentage.

G-Fafif
Nov 20 2017 08:47 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Johan Santana's comeback, which he was still talking up as recently as 2015, never gained traction, and here he is on the ballot five years after Nohan. Hope he beats 5%, at the very least.

Nymr83
Nov 20 2017 08:52 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Bonds Kent Chipper Vlad Manny Vizquel Schilling Sosa Mussina Walker.

That's 10. I still can't vote for a full time DH over any if these guys. I also wont consider relievers when there is such a glut on the ballot. Or Clemens, he deserves it, but I dont like him, so he can wait until I have ballot space.

Andruw would be a strong consideration as well, if I had more room or if you talked me out of someone. Vizquel was probably my last one in in that regard.

Ceetar
Nov 20 2017 09:13 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Nymr83 wrote:

Andruw would be a strong consideration as well, if I had more room or if you talked me out of someone. Vizquel was probably my last one in in that regard.


It's a subjective contest, a way to remember guys, and a way to honor baseball. Curt Schilling is a garbage human and doesn't deserve any attention or audience. Throw Jones or Omar in there.

41Forever
Nov 20 2017 09:20 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy MD wrote:
Edited for polling.



Thank you, Edgy!

This will be an interesting vote, because there are two guys -- Hoffman (74 percent) and Vlad (72 percent) -- who fell just short last year, and you think they'd walk in this year. But you have two guys -- Larry Boy and Thome -- who are legit first ballots guys, and you almost never see the writers put four players in at once. I wouldn't be stunned if the writers make Vlad wait another year, though that would be a shame. (If they wanted to make Larry wait a year and ponder his fate, I'm OK with that.)

Also, the Roid crowd is starting to make gains, so I think we're not too far from seeing one of them get elected. I'm not there yet, so I went with: Vlad, Hoffman, Chipper, Thome, Edgar, Schilling, Johan, McGriff and Omar.

I know Johan's not going to make it, but I looked at his stats again, and those Minnesota years were incredible. Two unanimous Cy Youngs, and I think he was in the top 5 three more years. Career winning percentage of .641.

Vizquel is an interesting case, with all those Gold Gloves. A better offensive player than I remembered.

Gwreck
Nov 20 2017 09:33 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 20 2017 09:39 PM

Bonds
Clemens
Guerrero
L. Jones
Martinez
Mussina
Schilling
Sheffield
Thome
Walker

Might have also voted for if not for 10 player limit: Hoffman, Sosa

---
The PED nonsense is tiresome. Players who did not fail tests or were not subject to testing with penalties need to be considered. If you want to hold Manny Ramirez's two failed tests (after he had plenty of advance notice as to the ramifications, fine).

Schilling is a vile person but his baseball career is hall of fame worthy. Compares favorably to, say, a Ty Cobb, who did all manner of bad things while playing; and Schilling, who started that crap after his playing days were over.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 20 2017 09:37 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Chipper has, at the moment, been named on almost 117 per cent of the ballots. (7 out of 6.)

Would that be enough to get in?

Edgy MD
Nov 20 2017 09:37 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I'm the only vote for Andruw Jones.

Most valuable defensive centerfielder ever plus a great peak on the offensive side.

metsmarathon
Nov 20 2017 09:45 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

comparison of the hof ballot's players JAWS score (average of career WAR and the WAR from the 7 seasons with the highest WAR) and Jpos - the JAWS score for the average hall of famer at that position.

top 10 in bold.

NameJAWSJposcompare
Barry Bonds117.653.32.21
Roger Clemens103.362.11.66
Chipper Jones65.855.21.19
Jim Thome57.254.61.05
Curt Schilling64.562.11.04
Scott Rolen56.855.21.03
Mike Mussina63.862.11.03
Manny Ramirez54.653.31.02
Edgar Martinez5655.21.01
Larry Walker58.658.11.01
Andruw Jones54.657.90.94
Sammy Sosa5158.10.88
Vladimir Guerrero50.258.10.86
Gary Sheffield49.158.10.85
Fred McGriff44.154.60.81
Jeff Kent45.456.90.80
Johan Santana48.162.10.77
Kerry Wood26.434.40.77
Johnny Damon44.457.90.77
Trevor Hoffman2434.40.70
Billy Wagner2434.40.70
Carlos Zambrano41.862.10.67
Jamie Moyer41.862.10.67
Omar Vizquel3654.80.66
Chris Carpenter32.162.10.52
Orlando Hudson29.156.90.51
Carlos Lee25.853.30.48
Livan Hernandez29.462.10.47
Kevin Millwood27.162.10.44
Hideki Matsui21.353.30.40
Aubrey Huff21.454.60.39
Jason Isringhausen12.734.40.37
Brad Lidge10.334.40.30


also, noteworthily, the top 10 players are all above average - their JAWSes are better than the average hall of famer at the same position.

which means that you could elect 10 players and NOT lower the standards of the hall of fame, such is the depth of the current backlog.

Edgy MD
Nov 20 2017 10:07 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Gwreck wrote:
The PED nonsense is tiresome. Players who did not fail tests or were not subject to testing with penalties need to be considered.

They are considered.

Interesting that, among tainted players, Bonds is getting five votes out of seven but Clemens and Sheffield have gotten three and Sosa two.

Gwreck
Nov 20 2017 10:12 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I think you understand what I meant.

For the avoidance of doubt, surely we can agree that:
1. But for the issue of Bonds having taken PEDs, he would be a lock for the hall of fame; and
2. The lack of voting support for Bonds is because many voters think his career is tainted for having used PEDs.

Nymr83
Nov 20 2017 10:17 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I am not interested in the Schilling-character-assassination game. He definitely keeps my vote.

Scott Rolen is an interesting one and I think he gets overlooked a lot.

We have at least one person who didnt check "I voted" right now, assuming support for Larry Wayne is unanimous.

Nobody disagrees that Bonds would be in on stats alone. He isn't exactly in the Palmiero (failed a test) category buy he isn't in the Bagwell (nothing but suspicion) category either. I'd let him in, enough already.

To be clear, Clemens is just as deserving as Bonds. I just dont like him. I'd vote for him if there wasn't a 10 player limit.

dgwphotography
Nov 20 2017 10:21 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Gwreck wrote:
I think you understand what I meant.

For the avoidance of doubt, surely we can agree that:
1. But for the issue of Bonds having taken PEDs, he would be a lock for the hall of fame; and
2. The lack of voting support for Bonds is because many voters think his career is tainted for having used PEDs.


That's the shame of Bonds - he was already HOF worthy before when it's generally acknowledged he started taking PEDs.

Ashie62
Nov 20 2017 11:26 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

BONDS, VLAD, LARRY, EDGAR AND THOME.

Edgy MD
Nov 20 2017 11:57 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Chipper Jones' support has reached 125% of the electorate.

I'm pretty sure that would beat Ken Griffey's total.

d'Kong76
Nov 21 2017 12:00 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

VOTED, Bonds, Clemens, Vlad, Chipper, Sosa and Thome...

Nymr83
Nov 21 2017 12:54 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy MD wrote:
Chipper Jones' support has reached 125% of the electorate.

I'm pretty sure that would beat Ken Griffey's total.


the "I voted" option may actually be counter-productive. if someone doesnt read it they can throw off our totals AND vote for an 11th player :)

cooby
Nov 21 2017 01:00 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Isringhausen? He actually eventually played?

I voted Manny and Andruw Jones

d'Kong76
Nov 21 2017 01:15 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Jason was a pretty good relief pitcher in the post-Met afterlife.

Edgy MD
Nov 21 2017 02:00 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Indeed. And a pretty mediocre one in the Met after-after-life.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 21 2017 02:10 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Hoffman, Vlad, Chipper. Thome makes it next year.

Nymr83
Nov 21 2017 02:15 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Chipper is now 3 votes over the "i voted" tag

MFS62
Nov 21 2017 02:34 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 23 2017 06:20 PM

Trevor Hoffman
Omar Vizquel - If Mazeroski is in for exceptional fielding , so should he be.
Larry Jones (I hate myself, but the fucker deserves it )
Jim Thome (the first player who made OPS make sense to me - walks and power.)
Manny Ramirez (Washington Heights is under represented, so Homey gets my vote)
Larry Walker (so is Canada)
Jeff Kent (so is second base)

Later

41Forever
Nov 21 2017 02:40 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Nymr83 wrote:
Chipper Jones' support has reached 125% of the electorate.

I'm pretty sure that would beat Ken Griffey's total.


the "I voted" option may actually be counter-productive. if someone doesnt read it they can throw off our totals AND vote for an 11th player :)



Guilty. Oops.

d'Kong76
Nov 21 2017 02:44 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

So if we voted were we not to click on voted?

Edgy MD
Nov 21 2017 04:08 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

No, the idea was that all folks voting, if even it it's just an empty ballot, should click "I VOTED" because that way we'd (in theory) have a meaningful denominator with which to calculate percentages.

Because the polling system stinks in this regard.

Ceetar
Nov 21 2017 03:04 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Hall rejects a mandatory open ballot initiative by the BBWAA.

Joe Morgan sends letter to voters to try to influence their vote.

G-Fafif
Nov 21 2017 03:12 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy MD wrote:
Chipper Jones' support has reached 125% of the electorate.


In tune with Jones's 1999 appraisal, some Mets fan went home, put on his MFY stuff, and voted for him again.

d'Kong76
Nov 21 2017 03:22 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy MD wrote:
No, the idea was that all folks voting, even if it it's just an empty ballot, should click "I VOTED"

I clicked on it in addition to my votes, but now I just removed my 'VOTED' click.
Could we always un-vote and change votes mid-poll?

metsmarathon
Nov 21 2017 06:09 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

If you vote for anyone, or if you intend to vote for no one, you should still check the “I voted” button so that we have an accurate tally of the number of ballots cast.

dgwphotography
Nov 21 2017 06:48 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I always got a kick out of Chipper. Yeah, I hated what he did to the Mets on the field, but I always got the sense that he played the role of the heel with a wink, that he was just having fun with the whole thing. I never could get to hating him like I did others, *cough*Utley*cough*Saint Derek*cough*cough*

Nymr83
Nov 21 2017 06:57 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Is there any player you dislike more than Jeter? I'd probably say Tom Brady is the only competition.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 21 2017 06:59 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Well, there's John Rocker and Roger Clemens.

dgwphotography
Nov 21 2017 07:06 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Pete Rose
Roger Clemens
John Rocker
Yadier %$#&ing Molina
Tony Fernandez
Lenny Dykstra
Roger MacDowell
Tom Glavine

Edgy MD
Nov 21 2017 07:12 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I'm kind of surprised that Chipper didn't get 3,000 hits. He faded late in his career, as players do, and lost some time to injury, but his next bad season will be his first.

cooby
Nov 21 2017 07:14 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

There. I clicked I hired though I voted yesterday. And not for Chipper Chapped Lips Jones.

41Forever
Nov 22 2017 05:52 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot



Adam Rubin posted his ballot.

cooby
Nov 22 2017 06:59 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Just added Jim Thome, because I just noticed Jim Thome

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 22 2017 07:06 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

It looks like not everybody is understanding the denominator thing. Chipper Jones has now been selected on 19 ballots out of a total of 14 that were cast.

If you've voted, please edit your choices to include a check next to the I VOTED option.

cooby
Nov 22 2017 07:19 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

He prolly voted for himself 5 times the douchebag

Edgy MD
Nov 22 2017 09:28 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
It looks like not everybody is understanding the denominator thing. Chipper Jones has now been selected on 19 ballots out of a total of 14 that were cast.

If you've voted, please edit your choices to include a check next to the I VOTED option.

To get this request on the next page.

d'Kong76
Nov 22 2017 11:21 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I re-fixed mine.

MFS62
Nov 22 2017 11:59 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

cooby wrote:
He prolly voted for himself 5 times the douchebag


I wish we still had the BOC, because if any post ever deserved one, that one did.

Later

seawolf17
Nov 23 2017 01:24 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

cooby wrote:
He prolly voted for himself 5 times the douchebag

That literally made me LOL.

Edgy MD
Nov 23 2017 02:28 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Chipper lost a vote! He's down to 119%!

MFS62
Nov 23 2017 04:41 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

While we're voting, the BBWAA voting will begin soon. And voters will be receiving a letter signed by Joe Morgan. In case you missed it, here is Jeff Passan's article about the letter.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/giving-hal ... 38128.html

Later

Valadius
Nov 23 2017 04:43 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Joe Morgan can kiss my ass, the pretentious douchebag. How many greenies did you do, Joe?

My ballot:

Bonds
Clemens
Guerrero
Hoffman
Larry Jones
Martinez
Mussina
Ramirez
Thome
Vizquel

Would also vote for if the Hall would do away with its ridiculous 10-person limit:

Kent
Schilling
Sheffield
Sosa
Walker

Not ready to put on my ballot but think they deserve consideration:

Andruw Jones
Rolen

Vic Sage
Nov 23 2017 05:00 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

[u:1kkqzqe9]My ballot[/u:1kkqzqe9]:
Bonds
Clemens
Guerrero
L.Jones
Martinez
Mussina
Ramirez
Schilling
Thome
Walker

[u:1kkqzqe9]borderline:[/u:1kkqzqe9]
Hoffman
A. Jones
Kent
Sheffield
Sosa
Vizquel
Wagner

Vic Sage
Nov 23 2017 05:01 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

i keep checking the "i voted" box, but it doesn't register.
never mind.

Edgy MD
Nov 23 2017 05:43 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Well, you probably have to eliminate one of your ballot votes. You can only check 11 boxes, man.

MFS62
Nov 26 2017 05:21 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

This made me change my mind on Chipper.
Let others vote for them if they will, and he'll probably make it on his first attempt. But his comments about Sandy Hook (even though he later retracted them) don't sit well with me. Let him not be unanimous. And this voter feels the same way:
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/will-past- ... 15891.html

Later

41Forever
Nov 26 2017 06:19 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

MFS62 wrote:
While we're voting, the BBWAA voting will begin soon. And voters will be receiving a letter signed by Joe Morgan. In case you missed it, here is Jeff Passan's article about the letter.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/giving-hal ... 38128.html

Later



That's an odd column from Passan. It seems like he is accusing the Hall itself of drafting the letter and getting Morgan to sign it.

This particular paragraph struck me:

My ballot will arrive this week. I will not fill it out. I will not participate in this charade where the shepherds charged with telling the story of baseball want to avoid telling the ugly parts. I will not even though players like Edgar Martinez really could use my vote. Sorry, Edgar. Blame Joe Morgan’s sanctimony for this one.


Hopefully he's just throwing it out and not sending in a blank ballot, which lowers everyone's percentage. Think about that when a guy like Trevor Hoffman falls five votes short.

And telling Edgar to blame Joe Morgan's sanctimony is ridiculous. It's Jeff Passan's sanctimony that's hurting him.

Voting for the Hall of Fame is a privilege. You're going to pass on that privilege because one goofball sends a letter? Please.

As for Chipper, a nice thing about social media is that we get to know people a little better. The downside is that we get to know people a little better -- and we don't always like what we see. Not sure if that should reflect how we think about his on-field performance.

Edgy MD
Nov 26 2017 06:33 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm particularly comfortable with factoring in character (or lack thereof) a player displays after his career. I mean, I'm a supporter of Curt Schilling, and he's been a public jerk since the day he retired.

That said, I don't reject that line of thinking either. Isn't the argument for Buck O'Neil largely rooted in the public profile he displayed after his retirement? I wouldn't particularly blame the Hall of Fame if they tossed out Rabbit Maranville if he turned into a terrorist turncoat subsequent to his induction.

41Forever
Nov 28 2017 04:20 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 28 2017 05:29 PM

On one hand, I love reading Hall of Fame ballot columns, because for some reason, I actually care about these things.

But on the other hand, I hate reading these because the writers jump at the chance to show us how smug, condescending and sanctimonious some of them can be. Today's exhibit is Lynn Henning.

[url]http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/columnists/lynn-henning/2017/11/27/henning-eight-deserving-hall-fame-enshrinement/108080420/

He's voting for: Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Vladimir Guerrero, Chipper Jones, Edgar Martinez, Mike Mussina, Curt Schilling and Jim Thome.

On Vlad, "a vote cast too soon?" The five years between his retirement and ballot appearance were not enough? Do his stats get better over time?

Guerrero just missed my list last year, his first on the ballot, for reasons not regretted. I wanted more time to think and talk about his candidacy. It got a bit sticky, comparing his WAR (wins above replacement) with a player such as Walker. Rather than invite second thoughts about a vote cast too soon, it was decided here to spend extra time assessing his case. This year, he makes it.


On Chipper, who is "the Ned Flanders crowd?" People of faith? Are there any pastors out there calling for Jones to be kept out? People care that he had an affair?

Jones is an easy first-ballot pick, even if some of the Ned Flanders crowd wants to make past marital indiscretions a reason for lopping him. Others don’t appreciate his views on issues of simple human harmony that seemingly were resolved in the Stone Age. Jones isn’t always a subscriber there, but his career and his career WAR (85.0) are first-ballot good.


He also goes on a rant about the 10-player limit:

With a silly, anachronistic 10-man limit, too many of us began the disgraceful process of figuring out which Hall of Famer was less worthy than others.


But note that he's voting for just eight players, not casting a ballot for Trevor Hoffman and changing his vote for Jeff Kent from a yes to a no.

And we get Buster Olney, joining Passan in not voting.

[url]http://www.espn.com/blog/buster-olney/insider/post/_/id/17691/how-worthy-hall-of-fame-candidates-become-collateral-damage

Last week, Joe Morgan sent a letter to voters lobbying for them to keep steroid users out of the Hall of Fame. This is the most transparent evidence we've seen of the Hall's gerrymandering to keep Clemens and Bonds, in particular, from being elected. Given that many performance-enhancing drug users have already been inducted, the Hall of Fame's targeting of those two players (and Sosa and McGwire) seems strange -- particularly for an institution that had long served as a museum, impartial in presenting history. The folks who oversee the place will have to make their own peace with the decision to publicly demonize a very small handful of players for the sins of generations of baseball PED users.


I don't think Buster understands what gerrymandering is. Morgan's letter, even if it was, as he suspects, penned by the Hall leadership, has no real impact on this ability to vote. In theory, it's one guy's opinion to influence the writer's ballot decisions. We used to call those endorsements or editorials. Campaigning can be annoying, but it's still Buster's choice on which box he checks off. And if he wants to vote for Bonds or Bat-chucker -- and his column says he would, had he not been overcome with outrage -- then Joe Morgan's letter won't stop him.

cooby
Nov 28 2017 05:19 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy MD wrote:
Chipper lost a vote! He's down to 119%!



Yay!

Edgy MD
Nov 28 2017 05:34 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

He's down to 117%.

Come on, folks, if you've voted, click the I VOTED box on the ballot!

G-Fafif
Nov 28 2017 07:28 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

41Forever wrote:
I don't think Buster understands what gerrymandering is.


It's when you replace your manager overnight with Gerry Manuel.

Edgy MD
Nov 28 2017 07:47 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Using Chipper's vote total (21) as our denominator, we're looking at a two-man year, with Chipper (100%) and Vladdy (81%) crossing the magic threshhold.

It seems like cooby is not a Chipper supporter, though, so using a denominator of 22, we get Chipper (95%) and Vladdy (77%) still squeaking in.

Third place and out of the money is Barry Bonds with either 71% or 68% of the Crane vote.

Voters get accused of setting sweeping policies for or against apparent steroid-era malefactors, but I think as things develop, it's more true to say they (and we) are making nuanced moral distinctions among Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, McGwire, and Giambi and such, and I think that's good.

Ceetar
Nov 28 2017 07:53 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

i didn't check off Chipper either.

41Forever
Nov 28 2017 08:09 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

G-Fafif wrote:
41Forever wrote:
I don't think Buster understands what gerrymandering is.


It's when you replace your manager overnight with Gerry Manuel.



Bang! Bullet of cool!

Edgy MD
Nov 28 2017 08:18 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Well, that gets Vladdy down to 73.9% and out of the money!

41Forever
Nov 28 2017 08:21 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I'm surprised by the lack of love for Trevor Hoffman. I thought he was a shoe-in. What am I missing?

Frayed Knot
Nov 28 2017 08:25 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

41Forever wrote:
I'm surprised by the lack of love for Trevor Hoffman. I thought he was a shoe-in. What am I missing?


That most fans in both the eastern & central time zones were examining the inside of their eyelids by the time he even entered the game 95% of the time, and that his post-season appearances were
both limited and not of his usual character.
Are those good reasons? Not very, but they do play a role.

I think he also played the 1B role to Mariano's 1A in the same way that Raines did to Rickey; same role but a cut below an almost perfect contemporary in that same role.

Edgy MD
Nov 28 2017 08:43 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

East Coast elites think recycled Metallica > AC/DC.

Nymr83
Nov 28 2017 09:12 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

41Forever wrote:
I'm surprised by the lack of love for Trevor Hoffman. I thought he was a shoe-in. What am I missing?


There were 10 guys I felt more deserving. Even the best reliever won't get my vote over a deserving starter who had to face lineups 2 or 3 times and pitched 3 times more innings. When Clemens, Schilling, Mussina, and all the deserving position players are in, i'd think about him.

Edgy MD
Nov 28 2017 09:40 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I voted for Mussina. His legacy is weird. He spent 10 years with Baltimore and eight with the Yanks, and neither fanbase really rushes to claim him as their own. He seemed to be suffering from the Don Sutton/Bert Blyleven lack-of-20-win-seasons tag, when at 39, seemingly in decline, he suddenly went 20-9 with a 3.37 ERA.

Crediting pitchers with wins being the misleading practice that it is, this was actually perhaps his eighth-best season, but it seemed to have cemented his legacy, and he was all fuck it, I'm outa here, perhaps hoping to leave the voters with the best possible memory of him. But it ain't working yet.

Valadius
Dec 20 2017 04:53 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Where we stand at the moment, via Ryan Thibodaux's ballot tracker:

73 public votes (estimated 17.5% of the total)

Chipper Jones - 97.3%
Jim Thome - 97.3%
Vladimir Guerrero - 91.8%
Edgar Martinez - 84.9%
Trevor Hoffman - 75.3%
Roger Clemens - 72.6%
Barry Bonds - 71.2%
Mike Mussina - 69.9%
Curt Schilling - 69.9%
Larry Walker - 41.1%
Omar Vizquel - 34.2%
Manny Ramirez - 31.5%
Fred McGriff - 16.4%
Scott Rolen - 13.7%
Sammy Sosa - 11.0%
Andruw Jones - 9.6%
Gary Sheffield - 8.2%
Billy Wagner - 8.2%
Jeff Kent - 5.5%

Biggest movers thus far: Walker (+16 votes), Guerrero (+11), Martinez (+11), Schilling (+7)

I think we're looking at a class of at least Guerrero, Jones, and Thome. Hoffman missed election by 5 votes last year but hasn't gained any net votes so far. Martinez has gained 11 votes out of a needed 73 and seems to currently project at finishing just outside of election, with next year being his final year on the ballot.

The story, as always, is that the steroid era has resulted in a logjam on the ballot, and absent lifting the 10-man restriction, we will continue to see voters focused more on who they have to leave off their ballots rather than voting for everyone they believe deserves it.

Edgy MD
Dec 20 2017 05:37 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

The era has also given us a surfeit of sluggers at the top of the ballot relative to starting pitchers.

Maybe we need those detached old cranks that were swept out of the electorate after all.

I disagree that folks are more focused on who they leave off their ballots.

MFS62
Dec 20 2017 09:31 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy MD wrote:
I disagree that folks are more focused on who they leave off their ballots.

I'm hoping a few more voters leave Edgar Martinez off their ballots, because I believe that silly AL rule kept him a regular in the majors long after he would have been before that rule.


Later

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 20 2017 09:34 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

If I had a ballot, I don't imaging that I would ever ever vote for ten people. I think the Hall of Fame should be very exclusive, and there are probably quite a few that I would remove if I had the chance. (Don Sutton is one who comes to mind.)

dgwphotography
Dec 20 2017 09:43 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
If I had a ballot, I don't imaging that I would ever ever vote for ten people. I think the Hall of Fame should be very exclusive, and there are probably quite a few that I would remove if I had the chance. (Don Sutton is one who comes to mind.)


Agreed - I'd remove Phil Rizzuto before Don Sutton, though.

MFS62 wrote:
I'm hoping a few more voters leave Edgar Martinez off their ballots, because I believe that silly AL rule kept him a regular in the majors long after he would have been before that rule.


Same here. I don't care how good of a hitter he was. A career DH does not a hall of famer make.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 20 2017 09:49 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I agree on Rizzuto.

Edgy MD
Dec 20 2017 09:50 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

If pitchers who never hit are eligible and are enshrined, why not hitters who never fielded (though Martinez actually played over 500 games on defense)?

41Forever
Dec 20 2017 09:50 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

dgwphotography wrote:
Same here. I don't care how good of a hitter he was. A career DH does not a hall of famer make.


That's a tough one -- especially when you have guys like David Ortiz on the horizon! Frank Thomas is in the Hall -- and deservedly so! -- and he spent a lot of time at DH.

MFS62
Dec 20 2017 10:30 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy MD wrote:
If pitchers who never hit are eligible and are enshrined, why not hitters who never fielded (though Martinez actually played over 500 games on defense)?

A pitcher's ability to hit is not part of the job description of "pitcher". Martinez isn't a pitcher, and he is not being voted on as a pitcher.
But to me, "Player" involves the classic 5 tools; hit, hit with power, field, run, throw. And IMO to be a member of the Baseball Hall of Fame, a player must do those things well enough to be worthy of the Hall, even if they don't do one of them (like run) particularly well. But he must DO them.
When the rule was first announced, I thought it might have an effect on career statistics by keeping players around at the end of their careers who would otherwise have retired. I was right.
Look at the numbers Paul Milotor put up after his final year as a player (at age 34). Those extra stats put him into HOF consideration by a wide margin.
In the case of Martinez, those 500 games as a position player don't cut it for me.

Later

Nymr83
Dec 20 2017 10:59 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

DH isnt an automatic disqualification for me, but I will treat the guy as if he were a worse-than-Jeter level defender when considering his career.

Edgy MD
Dec 20 2017 11:36 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

MFS62 wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
If pitchers who never hit are eligible and are enshrined, why not hitters who never fielded (though Martinez actually played over 500 games on defense)?

A pitcher's ability to hit is not part of the job description of "pitcher".

That seems arbitrary. A hitter's ability to field is not part of the job description of "hitter." But both are part of the job description of player. One guy gets protected from his weakness by a rule he never asked for, and isn't penalized. Another guy gets protected from his weakness by a rule he never asked for, and is penalized — indeed, disqualified from the Hall of Fame. Why?

We have no real evidence to conclude that, had the DH rule not been available to his managers, he wouldn't have been in the lineup. Nor do we have any reason to conclude that he played the field any more or less than Honus Wagner or Ron Santo or George Kell would have, had the DH rule been available to their managers.

The only fair thing to do is to give him a zero on defense for the years he didn't play, and judge him by his bat alone. You can even give him less than a zero, believing that his lack of a glove and presence at DH puts a lesser hitter into the game on average. This puts him at a disadvantage to Mike Schmidt and George Brett (and Wagner and Santo and George Kell), but doesn't exclude him outright.

I don't like the rule either. But to declare year in and year out that he's never going to get your vote in order to make a point about a rule he had nothing to do with creating seems miserly.

What if he hit 1,000 homers and stole 1,500 bases? We're still going to screw him because five years into his career, his manager had a lineup that just fit together best with him DH'ing, and the rest just went along with it?

Edgy MD
Dec 20 2017 11:44 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

MFS62 wrote:
But to me, "Player" involves the classic 5 tools; hit, hit with power, field, run, throw. And IMO to be a member of the Baseball Hall of Fame, a player must do those things well enough to be worthy of the Hall, even if they don't do one of them (like run) particularly well.

This is inherently contradictory. A player must do all five of these things "well enough to be worthy of the Hall" while not doing them "particularly well"? That's impossible. If a failure to do any one of these at a Hall of Fame level is disqualiftying, then 80% of the guys already in are disqualified.

Hank Aaron didn't field particularly well. Who knows how early he'd've been moved to DH, with or without his consent. He's also one of the greatest players ever to wear a pair of underpants.

MFS62 wrote:
But he must DO them.

It's just untrue that he didn't field.

Nymr83
Dec 20 2017 11:56 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy MD wrote:
He's also one of the greatest players ever to wear a pair of underpants.


who is the greatest player to regularly "go commando"?

MFS62
Dec 21 2017 12:16 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy, we get into this same discussion every time Martinez' name comes up.
I would have voted for Frank Thomas, and I would vote for Big Papi.
I said "in this case" and I mean it. He stopped playing a position after about his first 8 years in the majors (only about 25% of his at bats), and went on to play 10 more years with very sporadic position play. I just don't think Martinez earns my vote.(if I had one).

As Dennis Miller used to say, "That's just my opinion and, I may be wrong."
But from the numbers above, about 15 % of eligible voters share that opinion, as do some of the other CPF-ers.

Later

Edgy MD
Dec 21 2017 12:31 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

MFS62 wrote:
Edgy, we get into this same discussion every time Martinez' name comes up.

Well, if you choose to make a point of it, that's what you choose to do.

MFS62 wrote:
But from the numbers above, about 15 % of eligible voters share that opinion, as do some of the other CPF-ers.

Not voting for Edgar Martinez is not the same as excluding him outright because he's a DH.

Edgy MD
Dec 21 2017 12:32 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Nymr83 wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
He's also one of the greatest players ever to wear a pair of underpants.


who is the greatest player to regularly "go commando"?

Kevin Mitchell, I would think.

seawolf17
Dec 21 2017 02:27 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Nymr83 wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
He's also one of the greatest players ever to wear a pair of underpants.


who is the greatest player to regularly "go commando"?

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Dec 21 2017 10:21 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

There's almost no good time not to bust out the Harvey bathrobe series but that was an especially good one. I am LOLing at the office

Edgy MD
Dec 28 2017 07:50 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Is voting for a one-inning reliever OK?

41Forever
Dec 28 2017 08:24 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

The ballot tracker as of right now:

Chipper Jones - 98%
Jim Thome - 96%
Vladimir Guerrero - 94%
Edgar Martinez - 79.5%
Trevor Hoffman - 78%
Roger Clemens - 73%
Barry Bonds - 72%
Mike Mussina - 70%
Curt Schilling - 67%
Larry Walker - 40%
Omar Vizquel - 25%
Manny Ramirez - 29%
Fred McGriff - 15%
Sammy Sosa - 14%
Gary Sheffield - 12%
Scott Rolen - 10%
Billy Wagner - 10%
Andruw Jones - 7%
Jeff Kent - 8%
Johan Santana -- 1.6%
Johnny Damon -- 0.8%


This is with 119 ballots. My guess is that Martinez and Hoffman will fall short, giving us a class of three, (plus Morris and Trammell)

Surprised to see Clemens and Bonds on the cusp. For all the love I'm reading for Rolen, he's barely in double digits. A little surprised that Johan, despite two unanimous Cy Youngs, could be a one-and-done guy.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 28 2017 08:39 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

41Forever wrote:
Surprised to see Clemens and Bonds on the cusp.


I'm surprised too. And displeased as well.

Has Mark McGwire's time on the ballot expired?

Edgy MD
Dec 28 2017 08:43 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Yeah, the old 15-year rule got scrapped, and MM fell off after 10, trending downward over the course of his eligibility.

2007 23.5%
2008 23.6%
2009 21.9%
2010 23.7%
2011 19.8%
2012 19.5%
2013 16.9%
2014 11.0%
2015 10.0%
2016 12.3%

He's missing out on the newfound tolerance those labeled as juicers, but who retired later, have found.

seawolf17
Dec 28 2017 09:01 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy MD wrote:
He's missing out on the newfound tolerance those labeled as juicers, but who retired later, have found.

Once Bonds and Clemens get over the hump, he'll follow as some sort of vet's pick.

Nymr83
Dec 28 2017 11:54 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Johan is suffering from the ballot glut - he had a Koufax-ian run of dominance, a 5 year peak like almost nobody has achieved. keep him on the ballot!

Valadius
Dec 31 2017 03:47 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Looking at the numbers and the historical trends, my gut tells me we get a class of 4 - Jones, Thome, Guerrero, and Hoffman. Martinez falls just short with one year left to go. I hope I'm pleasantly surprised and Martinez makes it.

41Forever
Jan 05 2018 06:01 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I noticed a couple of things while looking at the Hall of Fame ballot tracker today.

First, I saw that of the 163 ballots recorded so far, the average number of players per ballot was 8.99. I was happily surprised by this, since we all know of the writers who provoke outrage by not voting. Then I got curious about who might be dragging down that average.

Prepare for some outrage.

Bill Livingston of the Plain Dealer and Cleveland.com votes for just two players, Jim Thome and Omar Vizquel.



Confronted with the usual ballot of suspected steroid abusers who were eligible and other players who were never mentioned in connection with the performance-enhancing drugs, I said last year that I had had enough of Major League Baseball's refusal to make any ruling on the steroid era to guide voters.

Most writers refused to vote for the usual suspects - Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Sammy Sosa, the whole rogues' gallery.

I spent a couple of years voting for all of them, because the inconvenient truth was that rampant cheating actually did take place, that these players were the best of a corrupt era, and that the head-in-sand approach to a time of widespread corruption solved nothing by ignoring the problem.
The trouble with that, of course, was it crowded out players who were probably clean.

Abstention, I decided, was the way out, but it had to be principled abstention, informing the Hall of Fame why on my ballot I could not vote for anyone.

I felt the same moral purity that I am sure people of dreamy political ideology felt who voted for alternative candidates and thus enabled the Presidential election result of 2016.

Now the debate wasn't so much about the head and the reasonable objection I had to failure to set criteria for the steroid era or even try to define it.

Now it was a recollection of how happy were the 1990s here when the Cleveland Indians had an All-Star at every position, went to two world Series, dominated their division, and, in the vacuum left by the deserting Cleveland Browns, won back the love of the city.

How in good conscience could I not vote for Omar Vizquel, the best shortstop I ever saw, the winner of a Fort Knox vault full of Gold Gloves, the defensive mainstay of those slugging teams? Vizquel is one of my favorite players in any sport ever.

How were 600-plus home runs by Jim Thome not enough, for all that he traveled the land as a mercenary after saying they would have to tear the Indians shirt off his back?

On the rest of the field, I didn't make a call due to the absence of policy on the steroid era.


Then there were a couple guys voting for four. Steve Marcus of Newsday voted for Guerrero, Hoffman, Chipper and Thome.

And, our old friend Murray Chass, who, a year after a blank ballot, voted for Guerrero, Chipper, Martinez and Thome.

Chass' column is worth reading, if for nothing else his exaggerated sense of self-importance and the way he attacks a radio guy, calling him a jerk while displaying jerky qualities himself. Chass gold.

AFTER BLANK BALLOT, WHAT NEXT?

After my infamous blank Hall of Fame ballot last year, I seriously considered an even more striking gesture this year. Having absolutely nothing to do with the blank ballot, I seriously considered giving up voting for the Hall of Fame altogether.

Before taking up that issue, though, I want to get back to the blank ballot and the reaction to it, especially from a jerk of a television commentator named Casey Stern.

Stern had a radio show and thought it would be great fun to ridicule me for submitting a blank ballot. Stern, however, was either too lazy or too dumb to do his homework.

He reacted as if my blank ballot was the first ever submitted in a HOF vote. Had he cared to find out and was not out just to have childish fun at my expense, he would have learned that my blank ballot was not the first submitted last year. He also could have found out from Ryan Thibodaux, the master of HOF voting record keeping, that eight blank ballots had been cast in the previous five years.

That information, though, would have spoiled Stern’s play day. When I tried to reach Stern to enlighten him, I was told he was on vacation, and he never returned my calls. This is a class guy, an announcer who was once so careless between innings of a playoff game that he uttered a notorious “M.F.” into an open microphone. As I said, a real class guy.

Now about that blank ballot, if memory serves me correctly, three former players were elected – Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines and Ivan Rodriguez. If I had voted for anyone, I would not have voted for any of that trio.

I have been clear in my position on cheaters. I don’t vote for them. Whether or not they have been caught using steroids or other PEDS, Bagwell and Rodriguez have long been associated with steroids. Raines was an admitted cocaine user. Cocaine might not do for a player what steroids do, but they are and have been illegal, and Raines testified under oath that he began sliding headfirst because he kept a packet of cocaine in his back pocket and didn’t want to mess it up by sliding on it. Honesty on the witness stand does not excuse a player’s use of illegal drugs.

So much for last year’s ballot. As I said, there wasn’t going to be a ballot this year. As I wrote here recently, I don’t think any writers should be voting for the Hall of Fame. Jane Forbes Clark, its chairman and gatekeeper, doesn’t deserve our assistance. Among other reasons for that view, she has kept Marvin Miller out of the Hall for more than 15 years, and that is unconscionable.

So I initially ignored the ballot on my desk, planning to do nothing with it but keeping it for reference when results are announced Jan. 24.

But I bungled my plan, mentioning it to my youngest son and oldest grandson. Separately, they made a strong case for not executing my plan. I kept the ballot on my desk and three days before the deadline invited them to register their best arguments. The result: I voted.

HOF Vote (2017-12-31)But whom did I vote for? All I can say is, if Edgar Martinez, Chipper Jones, Vladimir Guerrero and Jim Thome ever used steroids, I have never heard about it.

Martinez is the only vote worth explaining. In his first eight years on the ballot, I didn’t vote for Martinez but in retrospect probably think I should have. But then, had I voted for him a year ago, how would Stern have filled his air time?

I was about to seal the envelope when I decided to rethink Jones, Guerrero and Thome. I didn’t want to vote for four; that’s at least one or two too many to be inducted in a single year; it dilutes the honor. But I found it difficult to separate the three additions to my ballot. Many, if not most, writers these days would find it easy to vote for four players. They would find it easy to vote for 10 and more, if they could.

I strongly disagree with that thinking. There is just no way 10 players are good enough to be worthy of induction. Writers who vote for 10 are taking the easy way out. They don’t want to take the time and effort to separate the players into the best and others.

The Hall of Fame should be for the elite of the elite. Otherwise the honor is diluted. We can disagree on whom we think the elite of the elite are, but one thing I know is they aren’t all of the players on voters’ lists of 10.

A few years ago Hall officials pared the voting rolls by about 100, knocking off older writers who were no long active or covering baseball on a daily basis. That was a mistake. I know of several writers who are no longer working but covered the players who are now eligible for the Hall of Fame. They would serve as more intelligent and conscientious voters than many of those voting.

I am in the group of writers who have been stricken from the voting rolls, but I understand I am exempt because I won the J.G. Taylor Spink award about 15 years ago. I frankly don’t think the award warrants an exemption. I’d rather that it gives me the right to designate two or three writers who should still be voting. Maybe that will happen when Miller is elected to the Hall.

Nymr83
Jan 05 2018 07:03 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

First, I saw that of the 163 ballots recorded so far, the average number of players per ballot was 8.99. I was happily surprised by this, since we all know of the writers who provoke outrage by not voting. Then I got curious about who might be dragging down that average.


I strongly suspect that the guys whose ballots are known ahead of time skew younger and tend to be more in the "more is merrier" camp. the ballots with one or two votes tend to not get published ahead of time.

Bill Livingston of the Plain Dealer and Cleveland.com votes for just two players, Jim Thome and Omar Vizquel.


seriously, strip this clown of his ballot.

Edgy MD
Jan 05 2018 07:17 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Nymr83 wrote:
I strongly suspect that the guys whose ballots are known ahead of time skew younger and tend to be more in the "more is merrier" camp. the ballots with one or two votes tend to not get published ahead of time.

The older guys tend to be semi-retired and not have a regular outlet to post their ballots in.

41Forever
Jan 05 2018 07:30 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I was pleased that so many guys were turning in ballots with 10 selections.

sharpie
Jan 05 2018 08:13 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Manny Ramirez was pretty key on those Indians teams of the '90's. Livingston should've found a way to vote for him, too.

41Forever
Jan 05 2018 08:19 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

sharpie wrote:
Manny Ramirez was pretty key on those Indians teams of the '90's. Livingston should've found a way to vote for him, too.


Good call. And I thought this was a cheap shot:

How were 600-plus home runs by Jim Thome not enough, for all that he traveled the land as a mercenary after saying they would have to tear the Indians shirt off his back?


Thome played 12 seasons for the Indians, so it's not like he rushed out of town as fast as he could. And he was trades three times, so not all of that "traveling" was his call. It's like these guys have to find a way to tear someone down even while building him up.

Zvon
Jan 06 2018 05:10 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I thought Thome only topped 500. I must have heard that he passed 600!

Zvon
Jan 06 2018 05:24 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

If I add Thome will that mess things up? Actually, 500 should have gotten my vote. (^See Rick James meme above)

41Forever
Jan 08 2018 03:49 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

[url]http://www.mlive.com/tigers/index.ssf/2013/01/will_jack_morris_make_the_hall.html

This popped up on Facebook today -- with some familiar faces involved. Turns out we were off by a few years. Was nice to have Phil Regan involved.

Edgy MD
Jan 08 2018 04:07 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I tend to think that Bonds was Hall-worthy when (it's generally accepted) he started juicing. I tend to think Clemens wasn't quite there. So I tend to disagree that Clemens is just as worthy as Bonds. Following 1996, the Sox recognized that he was declining, and as he moved on the Jays, he needed one or two more excellent seasons to put him over the top. He started juicing and had, like, seven or eight.

In fact, shelving the whole issue of PEDs, I disagree that Clemens is just as worthy. Bonds was unstoppable.

dgwphotography
Jan 08 2018 05:16 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

seawolf17 wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
He's missing out on the newfound tolerance those labeled as juicers, but who retired later, have found.

Once Bonds and Clemens get over the hump, he'll follow as some sort of vet's pick.



God, I hope not. Without the Steroids, he's Dave Kingman

Ceetar
Jan 08 2018 08:36 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

What's Dave Kingman without the steroids?

41Forever
Jan 11 2018 03:05 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Dan Shaughnessy of the Boston Globe is voting for just three players -- Vlad, Thome and Chipper.

Three guys. That’s it. I don’t want the Hall of Fame to turn into the Hall of Very Good. I’m not coming down off the Steroid Wall, which is an increasingly difficult and unpopular position. And I’m not letting the analytics army tell me that WAR is the perfect barometer for Hall worthiness.


I think Hoffman is going to fall just short again, for reasoning like this:

Trevor Hoffman is going to Cooperstown this year. He was five votes short last year. So it’s done. He will be in a large class with Thome, Jones, Guerrero, plus ex-Tigers Jack Morris and Alan Trammell, who were selected by a veterans committee last month.

But I don’t vote for closers unless they are Rich Gossage (three-inning guys), Bruce Sutter (changed the game with a unique pitch), or Mariano Rivera (the greatest of all time). There are simply too many cheesy saves these days. Hello, Craig Kimbrel.

I don’t vote for Edgar Martinez, not because he was a DH, but simply because he falls a little shy as a dangerous hitter. Martinez should not be penalized because he was on a team with Ken Griffey Jr. and Alex Rodriguez, but he fails simply on my Potter Stewart “I know it when I see it” test. Sorry, Edgar fans.


Of course, his colleague Rob Hohler is the one voting for Johnny Damon.

Cue the ridicule. I’m voting for Johnny Damon.

His body of work is borderline at best for induction into the Hall of Fame. But voters have long shown their standards are as squishy as Silly Putty, and I’m straying from convention this year to recognize Damon’s transformative role in Red Sox history.


Looking at the ballot tracker, I think Andruw Jones will join Johan in the club of players unjustly bounced after one year on the ballot.

Edgy MD
Jan 11 2018 04:04 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I realize Gossage played a million years and spanned eras, but to describe him as the last of the three-inning closers is less true than it is to describe him as the first of the one-inning closers.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Jan 11 2018 04:20 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

That, um, honor belongs to, like, Franco or Eck, no?

And if you're voting for closers... well... these guys don't seem to register that in every other way but counting stats, Wagner was a significantly more dominant closer than Trevor Hoffman.

Edgy MD
Jan 11 2018 04:58 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
That, um, honor belongs to, like, Franco or Eck, no?

Gossage was pulling off the one-inning act while Eck was still starting and Franco was trying to get Chris Mullin to hang out with him at St. John's.

metsmarathon
Jan 11 2018 01:47 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
And if you're voting for closers... well... these guys don't seem to register that in every other way but counting stats, Wagner was a significantly more dominant closer than Trevor Hoffman.


it's not the be-all, end-all, but if you look at fangraphs, and run tehir war graphs tool, where it stacks their seasons from most to least fWAR, you'll find that billy wagner's curve is below trevor hoffman's for all but one data point. meaning wagner's best season was better than hoffman's best season. but hoffman's second-best season was better than wagners second best, and hoffmans third best was better than wagners third best. so on so forth.

the difference is within the margin of error for war, to be sure, but it's just not true to say that wagner was more dominant than hoffman. except if you're measuring fastball velocity, i guess.

OE: hmm... wagner does have a far better ERA, ERA+. unsure how the WAR calculation is coming in so evenly. maybe it's the higher walk rate...?

Edgy MD
Jan 11 2018 07:24 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I'm not particularly comfortable with WAR for relievers. A big part of WAR is to treat all events as equal (all homers as equal, all walks ... etc.), no matter the context. I tend to be distrustful of that, but accept it. But with guys whose whole role is about situations (pinch-hitters, spot relievers), it's seems deeply unreliable.

That may be largely ironed out when comparing two guys with essentially the same role, but I still am slow to surrender.

Ceetar
Jan 11 2018 07:36 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

i mean, WAR is an estimate and relievers are the kings of small samples.

I feel like once you've accumulated a careers worth though, it's at least fairly useful. noise balances out, etc.

metsmarathon
Jan 12 2018 02:17 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

yeah, i'm willing to back off on the above. a bit.

i think the difference in their WAR is most likely due to playing time. and if i scale wagner's career WAR to hoffmans same IP, then i get about 29 WAR for wagner. meaning he was more dominant for the amount that he played than was hoffman.

wagner has the third lowest ERA+ of any reliever ever, behind only mariano and kimbrel, and better than current notables kenley jansen and aroldis chapman. he's sixth in career saves, though its likely the three players immediately ahead of him never sniff the hall. lee smith, k-rod, and john franco.

i guess if i was compiling a list of the best relievers ever, wagner would be near the top. might probably be ahead of hoffman (who has a higher WPA, btw). i just don't know where the cut line is on my list for then making the hall of fame.

Vic Sage
Jan 12 2018 03:46 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

A reliever has the same problem a DH has when considering HOF credentials, in that they're specialists whose roles require greater contextualization in order to evaluate them. But i think its absurd that some voters think that, because they're specialists, they don't deserve HOF consideration at all. First, they didn't necessarily choose their roles. Secondly, the presumption that they couldn't perform just as well as players with more generalized roles is just that... a presumption. In any event, you don't get to evaluate their credentials based on what you think they would have failed to do in another role. Of course, nor do they get credit for those roles they did NOT perform, so a DH doesn't have his defensive ability to weigh in his favor, and his bat has to carry the whole load. That being said, Edgar Martinez's bat DID carry the load. And a reliever doesn't have the IPs that a starter has, so they have to be even more dominant in their roles than a SP to earn consideration, like Mariano. But to rule them out entirely? Voters making up those sorts of rules for themselves should be stripped of their vote. Same with those voters who won't vote for more than a few candidates in a year because they refuse to consider each player on their own merits but have made up an arbitrary numerical definition of greatness that precludes them from voting for more than 2 or 3 guys. The PED thing is a separate matter, because the criteria for HOF selection does include a "character" element, regardless of how its been exercised in the past.

HahnSolo
Jan 12 2018 04:06 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I can be convinced that Hoffman may have been better than Wagner, but not as big of a gap as 78% to 9% would indicate.

Edgy MD
Jan 12 2018 04:21 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

It's just my impression, but Hoffman may have made a few more friends along the way, with Wagner alienating folks in both Philly and New York.

Hoffman's brand also gets some helium from spending 16 years with one team, while Wagner was more of a hired gun.

41Forever
Jan 13 2018 03:17 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Retired Mercury News columnist Mark Purdy Tweets:

Mark Purdy
‏
Top candidates are on the ballot for 10 years. I vote for two or three per year. I don’t want 7 or 8 inductees each year like pro football. Small classes make Cooperstown the most elite HOF, IMO.


Votes for: Guerrero, Hoffman ... and Omar Vizquel?

Jim Thome's 600 homers don't make him worthy? At lease we know Chipper won't be unanimous.

metsmarathon
Jan 13 2018 04:40 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

if all the voters would vote for who they actually thought merited enshrinement, just for like one or two years, the problem would go away all by itself, and we'd go right on with our small hall inductee classes after going through the correction.

Rockin' Doc
Jan 13 2018 03:09 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I'm a rather stingy HOF voter. I think far too many people have been enshrined over the years. So I tend to vote for fewer players each year. I also have a personal bias against players that have been proven (or whom I strongly suspect) of having cheated to obtain their numbers. So as a result there is no Bonds or Clemens on my ballot. I respect other voters right to feel differently regarding this matter. With that said, I would vote for the following individuals if I had a vote.

Vladimir Guerrero
Jim Thome
Larry Walker
Chipper Jones
Trevor Hoffman

Close calls that I can see a case for are:
Mike Mussina
Fred McGriff
Edgar Martinez

41Forever
Jan 16 2018 02:26 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Today's ballot atrocity comes courtesy of Bill Ballou of the Nashua Telegram. He votes for five: Clemens, Bonds, Manny Ramierz, Chipper Jones and Vlad Guerrero.

Manny Ramierz and not Thome?

Some pearls of wisdom:

The Baseball Hall of Fame provides detailed background information on each candidate on each ballot for each season, and as a voter, I appreciate the effort. As a voter, I ignore it. The difference between Fame and Skill cannot be quantified. Either a player’s name hits me in the gut or does not, and no amount of research can change that.


The names of Bonds, Clemens and Ramirez have all been connected with PEDs. Ramirez actually was suspended for failing drug tests. I have explained at length my feelings on PEDs — I am not smart enough to parse the cheating.

If it was OK for Gaylord Perry to break the rules and throw spitballs yet get into the Hall of Fame, why not PEDs? And what about the amphetamine users of the 1970s and ’80s? They didn’t grow muscles, but is it only cheating if it’s obvious?


I get more mail about Martinez than any other candidate, and he was a great player, no doubt. And yes, it’s not fair that David Ortiz got into so many more postseason games than did Martinez, and thus became larger than life. But that’s the Hall of Fame — larger than life, full of players who can fill a stadium just because they are in the lineup.

Schilling? A stadium filler by the end of his career, but just not good enough over the length and breadth of that career. Thome? Reminds me of Sammy Sosa or Rafael Palmeiro. He was always one of the best, never the very best.

Nymr83
Jan 16 2018 03:05 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Thome? Reminds me of Sammy Sosa or Rafael Palmeiro. He was always one of the best, never the very best


"one of the best" doesnt belong in the hall?

i bet he was a Morris voter too.

never of heard of Ballou before today, now i know to stop reading if i see his name in the byline.

Vic Sage
Jan 17 2018 04:08 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

most of his points are dubious, but i agree with this one:


The names of Bonds, Clemens and Ramirez have all been connected with PEDs. Ramirez actually was suspended for failing drug tests. I have explained at length my feelings on PEDs — I am not smart enough to parse the cheating.

If it was OK for Gaylord Perry to break the rules and throw spitballs yet get into the Hall of Fame, why not PEDs? And what about the amphetamine users of the 1970s and ’80s? They didn’t grow muscles, but is it only cheating if it’s obvious?

Edgy MD
Jan 17 2018 04:58 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Yeah, but it's rife with whataboutism. He may consider all competitive transgressions equal, but I don't think we should just take that at face value.

Some guys broke rules. Some guys have broken laws. Some have sworn back and forth on their honor that they weren't cheating while they were cheating like fiends. Some lied before Congress. Some maliciously slandered perfectly honorable folks.

Nuance, man. Nuance.

41Forever
Jan 17 2018 06:00 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Interesting perspective from Newsday's Jim Baumbach:


Jim Baumbach‏Verified account
@jimbaumbach
Abstained from voting in baseball Hall of Fame for 3rd straight year. Don't believe reporters should make news. (I do like getting ballot.)


I'm fine with this as long as his abstaining is not turning in a blank ballot. If he's turning in a blank ballot, then that is making news -- and hurting qualified candidates.

Vic Sage
Jan 18 2018 09:51 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgy MD wrote:
Yeah, but it's rife with whataboutism. He may consider all competitive transgressions equal, but I don't think we should just take that at face value.

Some guys broke rules. Some guys have broken laws. Some have sworn back and forth on their honor that they weren't cheating while they were cheating like fiends. Some lied before Congress. Some maliciously slandered perfectly honorable folks.

Nuance, man. Nuance.


i agree that not all transgressions are created equal and one must make these independent assessments as a voter, without a blanket objection to anybody for any reason (including what position they played). I just think his point illustrates the hypocrisy surrounding the PEDS folks.

41Forever
Jan 18 2018 11:53 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Announced tonight, right?

I’m predicting Chipper, Thome and Vlad, with Hoffman falling just shy. Ballot tracker has Edgar at 80 percent. I don’t trust that, thinking old-timers who fon’t Post ballots don’t go for him and he falls just shy. Hope i’m wrong.

OE: The announcement is next week, Jan. 24. Oops.

41Forever
Jan 22 2018 07:47 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

One more odd Hall of Fame ballot to digest and vent about. This one courtesy Jose de Jesus Ortiz of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

[url]http://www.stltoday.com/sports/columns/jose-de-jesus-ortiz/ortiz-integrity-and-character-matter-when-weighing-hof-vote/article_dc7d1422-176a-5b4f-b837-600878a334ee.html

Clemens, Guerrero, Hoffman, Kent, Martinez, McGriff, Mussina, Thome, Vizquel and Wagner.

So, Clemens but not Bonds? Thome but not Chipper?

He's basing votes around integrity and character.

The tide began to change significantly once Piazza, who was plagued by PED accusations throughout his career, was elected in the 2016 class. Then Ivan Rodriguez became the first player plagued by steroids allegations to be a first-ballot Hall of Famer in the 2017 class.


Was Piazza plagued throughout his career? Other than the infamous bacne incident later in his career, has there ever been anyone with credibility taking a shot at Piazza?

On Chipper, whom we as a group have no love for. His objection is based on offensive tweets.

But if you’re going to focus on character, Jones is quite lacking.

“Y’all think if they took all them gators they trap in Fla and La and put them in the Rio Grande, it wud stop the illegals from crossing? Jk” Jones tweeted on June 8, 2013.

Then on Feb. 6, 2015, Jones tweeted this gem: “So the FBI comes out and confirms that Sandy Hook was a hoax! Where is the outrage? What else are we being lied about? Waco? JFK? Pfff …”

Many people die crossing the border in an attempt to find a better life in America. A man of character and integrity doesn’t dehumanize immigrants with jokes about migrants serving as gator bait.

Jones eventually apologized for his truther tweet about the Sandy Hook massacre in which 20 children and six adults were killed.

To be clear, Jones will not be the first despicable person inducted into the Hall of Fame, which already has inducted racists, spousal abusers and cheats in the past.

As the trite saying goes, it’s the Hall of Fame not the Hall of Saints.

Jones will cruise to induction based on his playing career, but his tweets show a tremendous lack of character and integrity, not to mention class.


And, on including Clemens but not Bonds:

I’ll consider character, integrity and Morgan’s request, so I’ll stop voting for Bonds this year.

I’ll continue to vote for Clemens because he has done everything possible to clear his name, taking his fight all the way to the halls of Congress and then eventually to federal court, where he was acquitted on six counts of perjury.

I’ll also continue to vote for Guerrero, Hoffman, Jeff Kent and Billy Wagner. I’ll add Mussina, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Jim Thome and Omar Vizquel. Walker barely missed the cut. Ramirez, Sosa and Sheffield fell short of the standards Morgan and several Hall of Famers have set in their request that we keep steroid cheats out.

Edgy MD
Jan 22 2018 08:09 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Well, he's being thoughtful, and trying to make nuanced distinctions. I'll give him that.

Clemens didn't take "his fight all the way to the halls of Congress." He was called there.

metsmarathon
Jan 23 2018 03:59 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

this whole 10-person limit on the ballot irks me to no end.

in 1939, the MLB had 16 teams. we now have 30 teams. would it not make any sense to scale the number of ballot-spaces with the approximate size of the player pool, if not get rid of the limit outright?

and maybe then issue some guidance to the electorate that they should vote for anyone they think merits enshrinement, not simply those who they feel should be enshrined in that given year. becasue that's fucking ridiculous.

metirish
Jan 23 2018 04:04 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

The numbers inside the bubble indicate what?, amount of voters??

Edgy MD
Jan 23 2018 04:37 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

They should, yeah.

Valadius
Jan 24 2018 03:46 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Today's the day.

Here's the tracker through 239 votes (56.4% of the expected total):

Chipper Jones - 98.3%
Vladimir Guerrero - 95.0%
Jim Thome - 93.3%
Trevor Hoffman - 78.7%
Edgar Martinez -77.4%
Mike Mussina - 70.7%
Barry Bonds - 64.0%
Roger Clemens - 64.0%
Curt Schilling - 59.4%
Larry Walker - 38.5%
Omar Vizquel - 33.1%
Manny Ramirez - 22.2%
Fred McGriff - 19.2%
Jeff Kent - 13.4%
Scott Rolen - 12.6%
Sammy Sosa - 10.9%
Billy Wagner - 10.9%
Gary Sheffield - 10.5%
Andruw Jones - 5.4%
Johnny Damon - 1.3%
Johan Santana - 1.3%
Jamie Moyer - 0.8%
Hideki Matsui - 0.4%

I'm projecting a class of Jones, Guerrero, Thome, and Hoffman. Edgar would have to add twice as many new voters from the pool of votes we haven't seen yet as has from the votes that have already been made public in order to get over the hump. Guerrero needed 15 new votes and has gotten 44 so far; Hoffman needed 5 and has picked up 11. Edgar needs 73 and has picked up 25 with less than half the vote outstanding.

Next year's class could consist of Mariano Rivera, the late Roy Halladay, Edgar Martinez, and Mike Mussina. Other new names on the ballot include Todd Helton and Andy Pettitte.

Vic Sage
Jan 24 2018 04:00 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

i don't think Hoffman or Edgar will make it. My feeling is that the more traditionalist voters will come in later (with the progressive voters having already put in their ballots so they could write about them and put forth their arguments), and they'll tend to overlook the value of relief pitchers and DHs, dragging down their percentage as we get down to the end. Just a hunch.

Chipper, Vlad, and Thome this year, methinks.

Nymr83
Jan 24 2018 05:12 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Vic Sage wrote:
i don't think Hoffman or Edgar will make it. My feeling is that the more traditionalist voters will come in later (with the progressive voters having already put in their ballots so they could write about them and put forth their arguments), and they'll tend to overlook the value of relief pitchers and DHs, dragging down their percentage as we get down to the end. Just a hunch.

Chipper, Vlad, and Thome this year, methinks.


wouldn't it be the less traditional/more statistically oriented voters who put less value on relief pitchers and the bullshit Save stat?

Valadius
Jan 24 2018 05:31 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Nymr83 wrote:
Vic Sage wrote:
i don't think Hoffman or Edgar will make it. My feeling is that the more traditionalist voters will come in later (with the progressive voters having already put in their ballots so they could write about them and put forth their arguments), and they'll tend to overlook the value of relief pitchers and DHs, dragging down their percentage as we get down to the end. Just a hunch.

Chipper, Vlad, and Thome this year, methinks.


wouldn't it be the less traditional/more statistically oriented voters who put less value on relief pitchers and the bullshit Save stat?

This seems to be correct. Hoffman received a greater share of votes last year from people who didn't make their ballots public prior to the vote (older, more traditional voters) than among those who did. His percentage went up 1.3%. Assuming a largely stable electorate, we can expect a similar trend.

Vic Sage
Jan 24 2018 06:06 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Valadius wrote:
Nymr83 wrote:
Vic Sage wrote:
i don't think Hoffman or Edgar will make it. My feeling is that the more traditionalist voters will come in later (with the progressive voters having already put in their ballots so they could write about them and put forth their arguments), and they'll tend to overlook the value of relief pitchers and DHs, dragging down their percentage as we get down to the end. Just a hunch.

Chipper, Vlad, and Thome this year, methinks.


wouldn't it be the less traditional/more statistically oriented voters who put less value on relief pitchers and the bullshit Save stat?

This seems to be correct. Hoffman received a greater share of votes last year from people who didn't make their ballots public prior to the vote (older, more traditional voters) than among those who did. His percentage went up 1.3%. Assuming a largely stable electorate, we can expect a similar trend.


While i agree that Hoffman (specifically) has greater appeal to traditional voters, i think a greater appreciation of specialists exists among the more statistically-oriented voters. For example, they are more likely to vote for Wagner than Hoffman, and less likely to simply deem relievers and DHs irrelevant to HOF voting, as many traditionalists are wont to do.

41Forever
Jan 24 2018 11:16 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Chipper is the first named.

41Forever
Jan 24 2018 11:17 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Vlad is the second named!

41Forever
Jan 24 2018 11:18 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Jim Thome is the third named!

41Forever
Jan 24 2018 11:19 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Trevor Hoffman gets it!!!! That's four!

41Forever
Jan 24 2018 11:20 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

And we're done. Looks like Edgar has to wait.

Zvon
Jan 24 2018 11:28 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Niiiiiice!

Frayed Knot
Jan 24 2018 11:51 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I thought it was really embarrassing when the guy from Cooperstown briefly announced that La La Land had gained entry.

41Forever
Jan 25 2018 12:13 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Edgar’s going to need 5 more percent in his final year.

Nymr83
Jan 25 2018 12:27 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Mussina made a big jump - its pretty hard to keep him out with Morris in, but then you can say the same about another dozen guys.

Morris really didnt belong.

Edgy MD
Jan 25 2018 02:03 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Nymr83 wrote:
Mussina made a big jump - its pretty hard to keep him out with Morris in, but then you can say the same about another dozen guys.

The Koosman Klub.

MFS62
Jan 25 2018 02:16 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

41Forever wrote:
Edgar’s going to need 5 more percent in his final year.

There will be a guy elected next year who hit and didn't field - Derek Jeter.

Later

seawolf17
Jan 25 2018 02:39 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

MFS62 wrote:
41Forever wrote:
Edgar’s going to need 5 more percent in his final year.

There will be a guy elected next year who hit and didn't field - Derek Jeter.

Later

Oh, no. I am SO not mentally ready for that.

Nymr83
Jan 25 2018 03:19 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

MFS62 wrote:
41Forever wrote:
Edgar’s going to need 5 more percent in his final year.

There will be a guy elected next year who hit and didn't field - Derek Jeter.

Later


Jeter's "fielding" - the joke that will NEVER get old.

Valadius
Jan 25 2018 01:31 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Jeter's not on the ballot next year. He's up in 2020. Rivera is on next year's ballot.

MFS62
Jan 25 2018 02:29 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Valadius wrote:
Jeter's not on the ballot next year. He's up in 2020. Rivera is on next year's ballot.

He'll get in because his supporters will write him in.

Later

Edgy MD
Jan 25 2018 07:03 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

[tweet:352vbk3y]https://twitter.com/VladGuerrero27/status/956308827665813506[/tweet:352vbk3y]

G-Fafif
Jan 25 2018 08:15 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Vladdy goes in as an Angel, the first to represent the franchise now entering its 58th season.

41Forever
Jan 25 2018 08:18 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

G-Fafif wrote:
Vladdy goes in as an Angel, the first to represent the franchise now entering its 58th season.


Makes sense! Expos have three already in Dawson, Raines and Carter.

G-Fafif
Jan 25 2018 08:27 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

MVP in Anaheim, went to the postseason, raised his profile. Not crazy, but kind of sad as a reminder that the Expos should have been able to keep him (and continued to exist).

Valadius
Jan 25 2018 08:40 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Guerrero's decision seems to close the book on representation of the Expos in the Hall of Fame. Larry Walker, should be be elected, would naturally be a Rockie.

Nymr83
Jan 25 2018 09:00 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Carter should have been a Met!

Frayed Knot
Jan 25 2018 09:31 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Nymr83 wrote:
Carter should have been a Met!


He was. One of the better trades of the entire 1980s

Edgy MD
Jan 26 2018 05:01 AM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

Met Totals

Jeff Kent: 61 votes (14.5%)
Gary Sheffield: 47 votes (11.1%)
Billy Wagner: 47 votes (11.1%)

----------------------------------

Johan Santana: 10 votes (2.4%)
Livan Hernandez: 1 vote (0.2%)
Jason Isringhausen: 0 votes

metirish
Jan 26 2018 01:34 PM
Re: Hall of Fame Ballot

I guess for Vlad going in as an Angel represents a smarter $$ choice too, along with the other stuff.

Absolutely loved him as an Expo, always seemed happy out there.