Master Index of Archived Threads


Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Frayed Knot Dec 03 2017 09:42 PM

The Marlins apparently have the "general framework" in place to trade G. Stanton to either the Cardinals or Giants. No details as of yet and the details are of course what's still being discussed, mostly likely the money the Marlins would have to front. Also of note is that Stanton himself has to approve any trade and that he can opt out of the deal following the 2020 season so whoever the receiving team winds up being has only three seasons of him for sure. An article a few days ago which mentioned the Giants talks heating up talked about the return looking something like IF Joe Panik plus two of SFG's better prospects (not sure how those prospects sit in the grand scheme of minor league prospects) with the Marlins eating only a small portion of the remaining $255 million guarantee on the deal running through the 2027 season w/an option for 2028. http://m.mlb.com/news/article/262789910 ... ture-home/

41Forever Dec 03 2017 11:14 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Derek Jeter intent on destroying whatever is left of the Marlins' fan base.

Lefty Specialist Dec 03 2017 11:24 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

If he opts out (a likely possibility) the Marlins would be off the hook for the rest of that salary. So you have to look at it that way- they may not be eating as much as you think.

Frayed Knot Dec 03 2017 11:44 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

If he opts out (a likely possibility) ... Hard to say. Is Stanton, as he turns 31 y/o (Nov 2020), going to be able to snag a new contract better than the one in place slated to pay him: $29, $29, $32, $32, $32, $29, $25, $25/$10 buyout? Depends on a number of conditions obviously, mainly his skills/condition after three more seasons are in the bag but also the financial state of the game. Don't think I'd go as far as "likely" at this point. the Marlins would be off the hook for the rest of that salary. So you have to look at it that way- they may not be eating as much as you think. It seems to me that whatever the Marlins are/aren't going to eat here is going to be set in stone by the terms of the trade. Now, sure, Miami would be smart to factor in that the opt-out condition exists but I don't think him opting out changes what Miami pays going forward since they'll have already sent that loot handcuffed to Giancarlo's wrist on the buggy ride over. It would then be on SF/StL to either renegotiate or punt if/when he pulls the rip cord. But, in general, I agree that I don't think Miami is going to be paying much here, certainly not what the Rangers paid to make ARod go away.

Edgy MD Dec 04 2017 12:19 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

The Giants may nab Stanton and Ohtani right on top of one another.

Edgy MD Dec 08 2017 04:47 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

So, reports are now that Stanton is holding up the deal because he doesn't want to be stupid Giant or a dumbass Cardinal. But would rather be a repulsive Yankee or a horrifying Dodger. At least that's what Ken Rosenthal is reporting behind his big dumb paywall. Stanton has a no-trade clause, and he's submitted a list of teams that he will waive that clause for, and while the Yanks, Dogies, Cubbers, and Stros are on the list, the Gigantes and Cards ain't. If experience tells me anything, using no-trade clauses to block deals is typically the mechanism by which a fat cat with a long term contract gets that option year at the end of his contract guaranteed. Whichever team guarantees that 2028 (!) season on his deal, I would guess, gets added to the list.

Lefty Specialist Dec 08 2017 07:23 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Jeez, in Houston he'd probably put that train out of commission.

Centerfield Dec 08 2017 08:04 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Edgy MD wrote: Stanton has a no-trade clause, and he's submitted a list of teams that he will waive that clause for, and while the Yanks, Dogies, Cubbers, and Stros are on the list, the Gigantes and Cards ain't. It seems like he's intent on making sure he plays in the 2017 post-season.

Frayed Knot Dec 08 2017 08:14 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

If experience tells me anything, using no-trade clauses to block deals is typically the mechanism by which a fat cat with a long term contract gets that option year at the end of his contract guaranteed. Whichever team guarantees that 2028 (!) season on his deal, I would guess, gets added to the list. Normally, yes. But this time it's Him with the options, aka: an opt-out clause after three more seasons so he has the choice as to whether or not he's even around when that final year comes around.

Frayed Knot Dec 08 2017 11:25 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Both the Cards & Giants issue statements that they are now OUT of the Giancarlo sweepstakes. Sounds just like the time I issued a statement that I was no longer intending to marry Scarlet Johansson ... a move I made right after she turned me down and threatened the restraining order.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2017 12:47 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Normally, yes. But this time it's Him with the options, aka: an opt-out clause after three more seasons so he has the choice as to whether or not he's even around when that final year comes around. There's probably still some value in getting that final year guaranteed. There's every chance he won't be in a position to opt out. His contract is really generous.

d'Kong76 Dec 09 2017 01:54 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

He'll be a Yankee before sundown Tues... a true Yankee.

Ceetar Dec 09 2017 02:51 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

d'Kong76 wrote: He'll be a Yankee before sundown Tues... a true Yankee. lol. Stanton puts them up against the competitive balance tax, with 2 outfielders under contract and Judge.

Centerfield Dec 09 2017 04:28 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

We can joke all we want, but the fact that Stanton is willing to go to the Yankees but not the Mets speaks volumes. There is only one team in NY committed to winning and Stanton knows which team that is.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2017 04:39 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

I understand, but I'm not sure what we have is a complete list of his preferred teams.

Mex17 Dec 09 2017 11:58 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

I am absolutely going to lose my shit if Stanton goes to the Yankees without them at least giving up Judge and Jeter is the one who pulls the trigger from the Marlins end.

Centerfield Dec 09 2017 12:50 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

I don’t see Judge going. Stanton/Yankees have the upper hand here and the Marlins know it. They were one win away from the World Series and they are going after Giancarlo Fucking Stanton. Check that, Giancarlo Fucking Stanton is going after them because he believes in their commitment to winning. We are a borough away and we are basically invisible. If this happens they’ll have the NL MVP and the AL MVP runner up. But hey. Brian Shaw. Woohoo.

Mex17 Dec 09 2017 01:08 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

For this to be fair trade, it would have to be Ellsbury/Judge/Torres or Ellsbury/Judge/Adams/Sheffield. From the Dodgers end, it would need to be at least Gonzalez/Puig/Buehler. Anything other than that and Jeter is a fucking moron, I don't care how financially strapped the Marlins are. And if he trades Stanton to the Yankees without getting Judge back he ought to be denied first ballot election to the HOF out of general principle for potentially throwing the entire sport out of whack for a decade in favor of his former team. There is not a Yankee fan that I know who would not tell me that the Mets would have to give up Conforto and Syndergaard if they wanted Stanton. Can you imagine those same people reacting to when a Yankee team that has both Stanton and Judge starts winning title after title (again)?

Centerfield Dec 09 2017 01:17 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Joel Sherman is reporting Starlin Castro and good, but not top, prospects going the other way. They are going to get Stanton without giving up their top prospects. But who cares about payroll right?

Centerfield Dec 09 2017 01:18 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

And I’m just thinking about the MFY fans going nuts and saying “Jeter comes through again!l” Makes me sick.

Mex17 Dec 09 2017 01:28 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Plus, I thought the entire point of Stanton playing hardball with his no-trade clause was because he wanted to orchestrate getting closer to Southern California if not directly back to LA. So then he denies a trade to San Francisco only to possibly accept one to New York?

d'Kong76 Dec 09 2017 01:31 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Heyman saying it so too, so it must be so. If this isn't an entirely fair and square trade I demand investigation.

metirish Dec 09 2017 01:36 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Ugh, this sucks but fair fucks to the MFY for getting this done , not giving up a lot , taking on $$ but they don't worry about that

Mex17 Dec 09 2017 01:48 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Financial limitations or no financial limitations, St. Derek can still show some backbone and demand Judge (or Puig). He should get more than that, but at least that while also taking on at least one bad contract for a shorter term than what Stanton is owed.

41Forever Dec 09 2017 02:14 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Stanton is going to hit 80 homers in that bandbox and with protection in the lineup. Freaking Jeter.

MFS62 Dec 09 2017 02:58 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ... Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 09 2017 03:30 PM

Fuck Derek Jeter. He just gave gift baskets to the entire Marlins fan base. Later

Edgy MD Dec 09 2017 03:06 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Mex17 wrote: Plus, I thought the entire point of Stanton playing hardball with his no-trade clause was because he wanted to orchestrate getting closer to Southern California if not directly back to LA. Why would you think that?

Mex17 Dec 09 2017 03:09 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Edgy MD wrote: Mex17 wrote: Plus, I thought the entire point of Stanton playing hardball with his no-trade clause was because he wanted to orchestrate getting closer to Southern California if not directly back to LA. Why would you think that? Because I have heard for years that he would prefer to be on the West Coast. But, in fairness, him being a dick to Jeter by vetoing the other deals with St. Louis and SF could also be in response to Jeter being a dick to him during this process.

d'Kong76 Dec 09 2017 03:39 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Mex17 wrote: Mex17 wrote: Plus, I thought the entire point of Stanton playing hardball with his no-trade clause was because he wanted to orchestrate getting closer to Southern California if not directly back to LA. Why would you think that? Because I have heard for years that he would prefer to be on the West Coast. But, in fairness, him being a dick to Jeter by vetoing the other deals with St. Louis and SF could also be in response to Jeter being a dick to him during this process. Up until last night, MLB wagering was on him becoming a Dodger. If this really turns out to be just a money thing it needs to be looked at closer by the commish's office. It's not in the best interest of baseball to have Mr. Yankee buy a baseball team and then months later 'selling' his best player to his former richer team. It stinks worse than three-day-old un-refrigerated Marlin carcass. It's like Cashman and Jeter did this last night in the bathtub over cocktails? And whatever happened to the notion that if you can't afford to do business in baseball you shouldn't own a team?

Mex17 Dec 09 2017 03:46 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

d'Kong76 wrote: Mex17 wrote: Mex17 wrote: Plus, I thought the entire point of Stanton playing hardball with his no-trade clause was because he wanted to orchestrate getting closer to Southern California if not directly back to LA. Why would you think that? Because I have heard for years that he would prefer to be on the West Coast. But, in fairness, him being a dick to Jeter by vetoing the other deals with St. Louis and SF could also be in response to Jeter being a dick to him during this process. Up until last night, MLB wagering was on him becoming a Dodger. If this really turns out to be just a money thing it needs to be looked at closer by the commish's office. It's not in the best interest of baseball to have Mr. Yankee buy a baseball team and then months later 'selling' his best player to his former richer team. It stinks worse than three-day-old un-refrigerated Marlin carcass. It's like Cashman and Jeter did this last night in the bathtub over cocktails? And whatever happened to the notion that if you can't afford to do business in baseball you shouldn't own a team? Right, what if the Giant and Cardinal proposals were nothing more that a front that Jeter put out there to cover his tracks knowing that Stanton would veto those deals. Then he has an excuse by saying "Hey, I tried to send him somewhere else first." Alright, I'll take my tin foil hat off now. . .

41Forever Dec 09 2017 03:49 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

That’s what I was wondering, too. If he wants to buy the team, then immediately slash payroll to recoup money on his investment, then why was his group the best to purchase the team? Did that mean the other groups brought even less to the table? And they wonder why the Marlins can never build a decent fan base?

batmagadanleadoff Dec 09 2017 04:20 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Centerfield wrote: Joel Sherman is reporting Starlin Castro and good, but not top, prospects going the other way. They are going to get Stanton without giving up their top prospects. But who cares about payroll right? Only on this forum do you hear the "payroll doesn't matter" bullshit mantra. And to defend the team from New York Fucking City, no less. Stanton should be playing for a team like the Yankees. Because the Yankees play in the greatest city in the world. So do the Mets. But the Mets have their fans so fucking brainwashed with their years and years of lowered expectations that to many Mets fans, the Mets might as well be playing in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

bmfc1 Dec 09 2017 04:29 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Because the Yankees play in the greatest city in the world. So do the Mets. But the Mets have their fans so fucking brainwashed with their years and years of lowered expectations that to many Mets fans, the Mets might as well be playing in Grand Rapids, Michigan. #truth

Mex17 Dec 09 2017 04:32 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ... Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 09 2017 04:47 PM

Does the Commissioner have the power to veto trades using the "best interests of baseball" clause? I just tried googling for the answer and saw nothing. I'm serious here. We don't know the players going back to Miami yet, but with that said, this cannot stand if it's going to be as lopsided as they say it is going to be. If I'm Manfred, I am telling both parties to find a way to get Judge in the deal or there is no deal.

smg58 Dec 09 2017 04:45 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

From Stanton's perspective, he probably wanted to go somewhere where he didn't have to constantly worry about whether his team could afford the contract. From the Marlin's perspective, given that Stanton missed a large chunk of two of the last three seasons, the risk of that contract becoming an albatross that would set the team back a decade was uncomfortably high. Plus, the chance to sell any higher on Stanton later on than they could do this offseason was basically zero. The question then becomes, what constitutes selling high? The Yankees, of course, had to bear the unimaginable burden of almost making the playoffs in three of four seasons from 2013-2016 as a result of taking on contracts that became albatrosses. They'll worry about that when they need to.

smg58 Dec 09 2017 04:56 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Mex17 wrote: Mex17 wrote: Plus, I thought the entire point of Stanton playing hardball with his no-trade clause was because he wanted to orchestrate getting closer to Southern California if not directly back to LA. Why would you think that? Because I have heard for years that he would prefer to be on the West Coast. The possibility of the media presenting narratives for years that turned out to be entirely wrong is too remote to even consider.

Centerfield Dec 09 2017 05:01 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

The “payroll doesn’t matter” bullshit is hardly limited to this forum. It’s rampant throughout the media and among pseudo intellectual half fans who think they are being cutting edge by saying “People don’t get it’s not about how much you spend. I’ve said it all along...it’s about spending wisely!”

dgwphotography Dec 09 2017 05:03 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

I hate baseball, and I hope this at least gets looked into by the commissioner's office..

batmagadanleadoff Dec 09 2017 05:04 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Centerfield wrote: The “payroll doesn’t matter” bullshit is hardly limited to this forum. It’s rampant throughout the media and among pseudo intellectual half fans who think they are being cutting edge by saying “People don’t get it’s not about how much you spend. I’ve said it all along...it’s about spending wisely!” Because if anyone's gonna figure out how to assemble a team that's twice as good as the Nats are, for a fraction of what the Nats spend on payroll, it's gonna be that baseball savant ........... Jeff Wilpon.

Ashie62 Dec 09 2017 05:09 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Yankees dump Jacoby Ellsbury and top prospect Estevan Florial for Stanton. Brett Gardner moves to CF. I don't bu Hal S's payroll comments one bit.

MFS62 Dec 09 2017 05:10 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Mex17 wrote: Does the Commissioner have the power to veto trades using the "best interests of baseball" clause? I just tried googling for the answer and saw nothing. I wondered the same thing. And also found nothing. Later

d'Kong76 Dec 09 2017 05:13 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Two first place finishes since 1988. Three top tier free agent signings since free agency became the law of the land. And this from the team that plays in the exact same city that the Yankees do. Preach on! Has nothing to do with the quality of the posters here nor the forum.

metsmarathon Dec 09 2017 05:16 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

mucking fets.

Ashie62 Dec 09 2017 05:22 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

MFS62 wrote: Mex17 wrote: Does the Commissioner have the power to veto trades using the "best interests of baseball" clause? I just tried googling for the answer and saw nothing. I wondered the same thing. And also found nothing. Later A commish vetoed Charlie Finley's 70's attempt to sell player I believe. However I don't know about trades.

Ashie62 Dec 09 2017 05:30 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Didn't realize it was a done deal. Starlin Castro and a few middling prospects and mabe Miami takes Ellsbury off the books. The Sports-Industrial complex never ceases to amaze me.

Lefty Specialist Dec 09 2017 06:11 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Ashie62 wrote: MFS62 wrote: Mex17 wrote: Does the Commissioner have the power to veto trades using the "best interests of baseball" clause? I just tried googling for the answer and saw nothing. I wondered the same thing. And also found nothing. Later A commish vetoed Charlie Finley's 70's attempt to sell player I believe. However I don't know about trades. The A's tried selling off Joe Rudi and Sal Bando and Bowie Kuhn put a stop to it. But now the commissioner is beholden to the owners, not to the game itself, so this'll go through without a glance.

Mex17 Dec 09 2017 06:18 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Lefty Specialist wrote: Ashie62 wrote: MFS62 wrote: Mex17 wrote: Does the Commissioner have the power to veto trades using the "best interests of baseball" clause? I just tried googling for the answer and saw nothing. I wondered the same thing. And also found nothing. Later A commish vetoed Charlie Finley's 70's attempt to sell player I believe. However I don't know about trades. The A's tried selling off Joe Rudi and Sal Bando and Bowie Kuhn put a stop to it. But now the commissioner is beholden to the owners, not to the game itself, so this'll go through without a glance. So there are 28 other owners out there who might not appreciate Jeter sending arguably the best player in the sport to his old team for a bag of balls, don't you think? I don't think that I am too far off in saying that, in the short to intermediate term, the integrity of the game is on the line here.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2017 07:14 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

I ain't pointing fingers, but weren't folks not too long ago describing his contract as untouchable?

41Forever Dec 09 2017 07:18 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Edgy MD wrote: I ain't pointing fingers, but weren't folks not too long ago describing his contract as untouchable? I might have been one of them That’s an insane contract. I’m stunned they were able to move it without taking on several bad contracts in exchange. I’m stunned there were actually several teams willing to take it! Is Sabbathia still on the Yankee payroll?

Frayed Knot Dec 09 2017 08:06 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Does the commish have the power to veto a trade? -- Yes, but he has no reason to veto this one. The Joe Rudi/Sal Bando deals were straight sales which is what got them banned. Kuhn essentially made up a retroactive limit for the sole purpose of killing those deals. But unless some team out there has evidence that Jeter was spurning other better deals in favor of this one then there's no there there. And even then you'd have to get by Stanton's approval. Ellsbury -- Why in holy hell would the Marlins want Ellsbury?!?!?! That's the kind of WATP Yanqui fans come up with. The whole purpose of dealing Stanton is to get rid of payroll not take bad ones in return. Giants/Cardinals -- If the SF/StL rumors were just ginned up as pretend trades then the Cards & Gints were in on them too. Take off the tinfoil hats folks. Sabathia -- Is a FA at the present time (and you could look it up)

Frayed Knot Dec 09 2017 08:20 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

And while I'm on the topic, how this works out is going to depend a lot on whether the Yanx get 2015 & 2017 version of Stanton where he clocked in 150 games/year and a 975 OPS or the 2013-2014, 2016 model where he averaged 103 games/year at more like 850 Not that the lesser version represents a hole in the lineup or anything, but at $30 million per for the foreseeable future as he starts to get into his 30s it's like the situation we discussed this summer with Pujols and maybe even Miggy Cabrera depending on whether his 2017 season was an outlier or merely the direction of things to come.

Centerfield Dec 09 2017 08:34 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

The Yankees carried Alex Rodriguez’s salary this season. They seemed to do fine. We can talk about these albatross contracts like ARod and AGon and try to comfort ourselves that way. But the fact of the matter is the guys guilty of these terrible deals were in the LCS and WS.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 09 2017 08:38 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

All we can do, other than lament, is hope that Stanton sucks.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 09 2017 08:40 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Centerfield wrote: We can talk about these albatross contracts like ARod and AGon and try to comfort ourselves that way. But the fact of the matter is the guys guilty of these terrible deals were in the LCS and WS. That's precisely the point! The point isn't necessarily that those contracts go bad in their final years. That's a calculated understood risk that the wealthy teams can afford to absorb. The point is that the Yankees are in the post-season virtually every single season. And so pointing out that some of those contracts went bad misses the point, entirely. The Mets play in the same exact fucking city that the Yankees do. And while the Yankees are in the post-season virtually every single season, the Mets miss the post-season virtually every single season.

Frayed Knot Dec 09 2017 08:47 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ... Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 09 2017 08:47 PM

Sure (responding to CF's 3:34 post) this deal won't break them either way - even as it likely kills their oft stated goal of getting under the lux tax threshold meaning that it will restrict them in some other manner. But this forum (and others) went through the same hair-tearing/all-is-lost/end of competitive baseball cries when ARod was dealt to a Yanqui team coming off four WS wins in a five year span, yet it resulted in just one WS win/appearance in 17 seasons since and they got multiple MVP years out of steroid boy who was both younger and better than Stanton. In the meantime, Starlin Castro isn't a "bag of balls" and the Yanx have a deep farm system at the moment which (along with Stanton's approval) is what allowed them to pull off the deal. So maybe Giancarlo will be the piece that puts them over the top or maybe they 'bought high' and he'll be a good though erratic, injured, and starting to age. Time will tell.

Centerfield Dec 09 2017 08:47 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ... Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 09 2017 08:52 PM

I think you are missing the point. The ARod contract went just as bad as everyone said it would. $21 million for a player over 40? Foolish. But they got, for years, MVP caliber performance. Post seasons nearly every year. A World Championship. And when he was no longer able to perform, they spent more and got other players. This is a win any way you slice it. The reason everyone wanted ARod then is if the Mets ever had 17 year run like the Yankees just had it would absolutely be the Golden Era of this franchise.

41Forever Dec 09 2017 08:51 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Frayed Knot wrote: Sabathia -- Is a FA at the present time (and you could look it up) Casey! Nice.

Frayed Knot Dec 09 2017 08:56 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Side note to all this, a "Met team source" said that the Mets will be contacting the Marlins about Starlin Castro once this rumored deal is complete. THAT would certainly clear up any 2nd base questions for the next two seasons and it certainly wouldn't be unheard of for the Marlins to be looking to "Piazza-Off" Castro right after trading for him.

Mex17 Dec 09 2017 08:59 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ... Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 09 2017 10:37 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: Ellsbury -- Why in holy hell would the Marlins want Ellsbury?!?!?! That's the kind of WATP Yanqui fans come up with. The whole purpose of dealing Stanton is to get rid of payroll not take bad ones in return. Ellsbury's $68-ish million comes off the books in 2021 compared to the $295 million that Stanton is owed through 2028. $68 million is less than $295 million and 2021 is earlier than 2028, so there are your answers. Plus, in my deals, Judge and more were headed back to Miami in addition to Ellsbury. That is how fire sale trades usually work. . .sometimes you take back a bad, albiet shorter term, contact in order to offset some of the cost to the acquiring tean and you almost always get back actual talent which is younger, less expensive, and team controllable that you use to build your own team back up again. Hardly any of that is supposedly happening here, and when you factor in the rather cozy relationship that Miami's pseudo-GM has with the team that is reaping this enormous benefit, and it should not be too hard to understand why this stinks to high heaven.

Centerfield Dec 09 2017 08:59 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

This is so typical Mets. Everyone is pissed off that the Yankees got Stanton for dick. Mets reaction. Hey! Maybe we can get dick!

Frayed Knot Dec 09 2017 09:19 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Mex17 wrote: Ellsbury's $68-ish million comes off the books in 2021 comparted to the $295 million that Stanton is owed through 2028. $68 million is less than $295 million and 2021 is earlier than 2028, so there are your answers. Plus, in my deals, Judge and more were headed back to Miami in addition to Ellsbury. That is how fire sale trades usually work. . .sometimes you take back a bad, albiet shorter term, contact in order to offset some of the cost to the acquiring tean and you almost always get back actual talent which is younger, less expensive, and team controllable that you use to build your own team back up again. Hardly any of that is supposedly happening here, and when you factor in the rather cozy relationship that Miami's pseudo-GM has with the team that is reaping this enormous benefit, and it should not be too hard to understand why this stinks to high heaven. So the Marlins chose a deal where they take on NONE of Ellsbury's $68 million which they obviously preferred since their stated goal going in was to cut payroll as much as possible. It's fine to make up scenarios where they take Ellsbury and therefore get Judge in the process but you're acting as if that was offered and they turned it down. The rumored SFG deal was infielder Joe Panik plus two prospects and it winds up as Castro plus two prospects. And while I'm not sure if we heard what StL was offering, the Marlins would have accepted either but couldn't get past the Stanton veto. So to believe that this was all some kind of set-up we'd have to buy that the SFG & StL deals were 'fake news' and all those teams plus the Yanx, plus Stanton, plus the offices on Park Avenue are all in on this and that Jeter's goal in his new job is to hurt his own team as much as possible.

Ashie62 Dec 09 2017 10:23 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

The MFY's play in the American League. We do not compete directly with them.

Mex17 Dec 09 2017 10:32 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ... Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 09 2017 10:53 PM

It's fine to make up scenarios where they take Ellsbury and therefore get Judge in the process but you're acting as if that was offered and they turned it down. I'm saying that this is the type of thing that a responsible and competant GM would have insisted on upon threat of walking away from the negoations if he did not get it. I'm no master negotiator, but I do know that you have to be willing to walk. It's not just "player" plus "prospects", it also the quality of the prospects. I don't know what SF and StL were offering, but from what I can tell what they are getting from the Yankees are middling at best. So, even if the packages from the other two teams were comperable, that may not speak to collusion but it does say quite a bit about Jeter's aptitude as a GM. And, if that is true, that means that now that we have finally found something that the guy is terrible at, it somehow still benefits the Yankees!!! How does that even happen? On edit: And Manfred can still get involved on the basis that a pampered entitled primma donna ex-player (who comes from a franchise that, along with their fan base, seems to actually believe that they are bigger than the game itself) being in over his head should not impinge the overall credibility of the sport.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 09 2017 10:35 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

I'd feel much better about this if Stanton was 33. But I looked it up and he's only 28!

Centerfield Dec 09 2017 10:54 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'd feel much better about this if Stanton was 33. But I looked it up and he's only 28! Yeah. It’s as bad as it can be. They have a loaded young core. Tons of money coming off the books, all of which will be reinvested. A strong farm system and smart people in charge. Any move that doesn’t work can be addressed by further moves. Players know this making them an even more attractive landing spot, even beyond their individual contracts. They are set up for years to come. Our Octobers will be much like this past one. Where we hope some team puts it together enough to keep them from winning it all.

Frayed Knot Dec 09 2017 11:02 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

... you have to be willing to walk. Depends on how desperate the Fish were to get rid of Stanton - or, more accurately, his contract. The type of deal you're proposing is A type of salary dump but it's not the only one and Miami either preferred, or was only able to get, a deal where they took less in order to get out from under virtually all the money (Yanx paying 90 some percent). Insist on too much and you might wind up walking yourself into keeping a player you don't want/can't afford. It's not just "player" plus "prospects", it also the quality of the prospects. I don't know what SF and StL were offering, but from what I can tell what they are getting from the Yankees are middling at best. So, even if the packages from the other two teams were comperable, that may not speak to collusion but it does say quite a bit about Jeter's aptitude as a GM. And, if that is true, that means that now that we have finally found something that the guy is terrible at, it somehow still benefits the Yankees!!! How does that even happen? The proposed deal from SF was an infielder plus two prospects, just like the one they took from NYY. I don't claim the knowledge as to how the prospects compare* but I do know you can't merely go by #2, #8 or whatever. The Yanx have a very deep system right now (more deep than top heavy except for #1 guy Gleyber Torres except that he's recovering from TJ surgery) so #whatever in their stable might be better than a higher prospect in a weaker system. The bottom line is that this was a very open process. Miami made it known, essentially before the season even ended, that GS was available and all 29 teams were free to contact them (or be contacted by them) and make bids. The Marlins, **under the restriction of Stanton's veto power** (a VERY important detail), decided that this one was better than any others and better than the option of hanging onto him. And, if nothing else, we can look at it this way: in the last 24 hours both Dee Gordon & Giancarlo Stanton have disappeared from our division. * here's a John Sickels evaluation of the NYY guys

Nymr83 Dec 09 2017 11:17 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

If the Dodgers made this deal I dont think we would be conplaining nearly as much. Starting from the premise that the Marlins wouldnt pay much if any salary, they got a reasonable return considering the no trade clause tying their hands - for all we know Stanton secretly gave them a list of 3 teams or less! The issues here are really 1) an ownership group being allowed to buy a team when they seemingly couldn't afford to run one 2) the impression of dirty dealing and 3) another demonstration of the Yankees willingness to spend in a way the Mets won't. I dont think the quality of the trade itself is an issue. The idea of Judge for Stanton is a joke, no team in the league trades away a guy like Judge under team control cheaply for 5 or 6 years.

Mex17 Dec 09 2017 11:47 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Nymr83 wrote: The idea of Judge for Stanton is a joke, no team in the league trades away a guy like Judge under team control cheaply for 5 or 6 years. So if not Judge than at least Clint Frazier. A backend bullpen guy and defense-first infielder, both of whom are years away, is simply not enough from the prospect end in exchange for Giancarlo Stanton, even if you are taking on all of the money for Stanton.

Frayed Knot Dec 10 2017 02:50 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

... even if you are taking on all of the money for Stanton. I think you're dismissing the value of 1/4 Billion dollars of future obligation rather cavalierly. Or, as Virgil Sollozzo once said to Vito C.: 'If you consider a million dollars in cash as mere finance, Te Salut Don Corleone' Let's look at it this way: - the Yanx essentially just signed Giancarlo Stanton to a 10-year deal FA at about $29 mil per running through his age 37 season. Except in this case he can opt out after three years -- remember it was the second ARod contract, the one he forced by opting-out, which caused all the problems, not the one the Yanx inherited. AND it's also going to cost them more than that as this prevents them from getting under the lux tax level as they had supposedly planned to do, AND they also had to pay with their starting 2nd baseman (a 27 y/o 4-time All-Star coming off maybe his best season) plus two prospects, far away ones, yes, but also potentially high ceiling guys. Now they obviously consider that a good deal and maybe it will be, but they're in a very different situation than the Marlins. - the Marlins, meanwhile, despite painting themselves into a corner by essentially pre-announcing (probably Jeter et al's biggest crime here) their inability to keep GS all while knowing that their options were limited due to his no-trade clause, came away with an above average starting middle infielder plus two prospects, or those two prospects plus whatever they can flip Castro into, AND they pay almost none of the remaining contract. All of which means that they got what they were looking for too. Now you obviously think this was a bad deal, which is fine, but it not like the Fish were swimming in better ones (and even if they could they had to get his permission to act on it/them) and they just as obviously preferred this deal to no deal at all which might have been the case once the Dodgers declared no interest and the player himself rejected the SF and StL options. Manfred is not only NOT going to halt this deal, he's barely going to give it a second thought.

Ceetar Dec 10 2017 03:23 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

lol. I'll take the Mets thanks. Gimme Thor and deGrom et al (and Darvish please) over the Yankees. It's fun how because the Yankees got lucky last year (And they did) it must mean the start of a dynasty run and not literally just a flash in the pan thing. Right off the bat I'm not sure Stanton covers the difference from the Judge dropoff and the Castro drop off (who I don't really want. sign Walker again I guess, he's better) That they offloaded Castro's contract AND had the Marlins eat a small part (which helps with the competitive balance tax) likely means they're serious about staying under, and they're pretty damn close, especially with paying 60million to their outfield and have plenty of holes elsewhere. The spray charts suggest Stanton wouldn't have hit more home runs in Yankee Stadium than Marlins Park last season. As annoying as the coverage of them is going to be, the Marlins fire sale only helps the Mets. And the Mets don't have a DH. Conforto and Cespedes are very good players. Brian Dozier is the guy you want to push the Mets to acquire, not Stanton.

Nymr83 Dec 10 2017 03:46 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

the Stanton contract is definitely more palatable to an AL team who knows they'll never need to suffer through horrible negative defensive value as long as the bat is producing - but the Yankees still had a roster built for this where a few years ago they wouldn't have because they have nobody else obviously "clogging" that spot long term.

41Forever Dec 10 2017 03:59 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

The thing about the spray chart is interesting. But I’m wondering, is MFY III a bandbox because of short fences, or is it because the ball carries well there or a combination of the two? We all hear that it’s a band box, but I don’t think I’ve heard that about Marlins Park.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Dec 10 2017 05:38 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

We should do Jeter a favor and take Christian Yelich off his hands.

Centerfield Dec 11 2017 01:51 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Or Marcelo Ozuna. I’d be down with that.

Frayed Knot Dec 11 2017 02:04 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

During our first series this past year with Miami I remember posing the question about whether you'd want Yelich or Stanton going forward if given the choice. I don't recall specifically how I dealt with the 800-lb gorilla of Stanton's contract situation but my point in bringing it up was that I saw a better future in Yelich. Well it turned out to be a bad year to vote that way as Stanton had his best -- and healthiest -- season of his career while Yelich backslid somewhat [859 OPS / 135 OPS+ in 2016 down to 807 / 117] but maybe that just means that this would be a good time to 'buy low' on him. Just turned 26 a few days ago, he has two seasons to go before hitting FA-gency and he can play CF Ozuna, one year older and with the same ML service time as Yelich, had a big step-up year in '17 but he's always been so erratic that I'd have no idea what to expect from him. Either way we're left with the question of what type of young player/prospects you'd give up for either/or and whether or not they'd be good enough to get the job done. And of course without the monster contract as part of the deal there's the possibility that either of those guys would cost more in live bodies than did Stanton.

Ceetar Dec 11 2017 02:31 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

I mean, Yelich seemingly plays/played a passable CF? So that helps.

metsmarathon Dec 11 2017 03:58 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

man, i really hate when a player i like turns to the dark side....

A Boy Named Seo Dec 11 2017 04:59 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

This is a good read about this trade, the state of the Marlins under the owner's lead, and Jeets' place in it. The Ringer --> https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2017/12/9 ... ce-sherman Seriously, who is the Marlins GM? I wonder who is/are the people that engineered this specifically? And I wonder how much Jeter's paws were all over it or not?

Ceetar Dec 11 2017 05:07 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Mafia Stooge. love it.

dgwphotography Dec 11 2017 07:01 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

This is a good read about this trade, the state of the Marlins under the owner's lead, and Jeets' place in it. The Ringer --> https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2017/12/9 ... ce-sherman Seriously, who is the Marlins GM? I wonder who is/are the people that engineered this specifically? And I wonder how much Jeter's paws were all over it or not? Some of that would ring true if you switched out Sherman for Wilpon and Jeter for Alderson

A Boy Named Seo Dec 21 2017 05:10 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Here's a very interesting, combative interview between some ESPN rock named Dan Le Batard and Commish Rob Manfred talking the Marlins sale. https://www.facebook.com/thedanlebatard ... 229197037/ Manfred vehemently defends the sale and the ownership and claims he knew nothing in advance about their plans to strip the team. Le Batard guy keeps railing on Jeter and Manfred had to remind him Bruce Sherman is the majority owner. I kept wondering throughout how ownership would evaluate our own Wilpons compared to these new turds in south Florida, and wonder if MLB's relationship w/ the Wilpons would ever change now that Selig's been gone for a bit. Very much worth a listen, regardless of if, or how many craps you give about the Marlins.

Ceetar Dec 21 2017 06:57 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

It's not just Selig I'm sure, there's very much a rich white guy inner circle thing there. Maybe they're not _as_ close to Manfred as Selig, but I'm sure they're still friendly.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 22 2017 12:34 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Mike Puma wrote: Fred Wilpon was “irate” after learning of Giancarlo Stanton’s recent trade to the Yankees, according to an industry source, continuing a pattern of hand-wringing by the Mets co-owner following a splash by his crosstown rival. Fred Wilpon ‘irate’ about Yankees getting Giancarlo Stanton

seawolf17 Dec 22 2017 12:42 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Mike Puma wrote: Fred Wilpon was “irate” after learning of Giancarlo Stanton’s recent trade to the Yankees, according to an industry source, continuing a pattern of hand-wringing by the Mets co-owner following a splash by his crosstown rival. Fred Wilpon ‘irate’ about Yankees getting Giancarlo Stanton Mets Fans 'Irate' About Incompetent Team Ownership

Centerfield Dec 22 2017 01:42 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

It says a lot about Fred that he hopes to win not by giving his all, but by hoping his opponents will be just as lackadaisical as him. Then being surprised and angry when they’re not.

Edgy MD Dec 22 2017 02:32 AM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Yeah, if that account is true, then it's one step beyond in dumbness. If he believes the Yankees model of doing business is unsustainable, then he should be delighted when they double down on it. They'll experience massive setbacks and the Mets will be there to pick up the pieces. But he doesn't believe it. He either wants to believe it. Or wants the Yankees to believe he believes it so they will restrain themselves. It's a good symbol of how baseball is a terribly modeled industry, where one owner is pissed at another for not holding the line? You're supposed to be competitors.

Ceetar Dec 22 2017 02:37 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

gee, I'm so glad Fred opened his mouth.

metirish Dec 22 2017 02:57 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Mets a laughingstock with these Wilpon is irate stories....

Ceetar Dec 22 2017 03:06 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

metirish wrote: Mets a laughingstock with these Wilpon is irate stories.... It's the offseason. When the Mets are fighting for the division and the Yankees are 8 back in July...

metirish Dec 22 2017 03:34 PM Re: Giancarlo: Going Once, Going Twice, ...

Ceetar wrote: Mets a laughingstock with these Wilpon is irate stories.... It's the offseason. When the Mets are fighting for the division and the Yankees are 8 back in July... :)