Master Index of Archived Threads


This cannot go on much longer.

Mex17 Jan 20 2018 12:33 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 20 2018 04:54 PM

It's January 20th for Pete's sake, and so many guys are still out there, including most of the top ones. I understand that this new generation of executives think differently and are effectively (without colluding with one another) causing a market correction, but at some point you have to sign people and get ready for Spring Training and the season. Either there is going to be an explosion of news really soon or a lot of major league caliber players who have baseball left in them are going to be applying to their local Wal-Marts for jobs. And, on a side note, I can easily see this market correction leading to big-time labor strife down the road. If sabermetric inclined GMs are now not willing to pay for the decline years of players, then the players should then demand that they get arbitration and free agency earlier in their careers. Are the owners going to be willing to move on that, and what will the players have to give up on order to get it? Pace of play concessions maybe?

Edgy MD Jan 20 2018 01:36 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

It's a good year to try some good old collusion. Correct the market this winter because all the big prizes are hitting free agency next winter.

Mex17 Jan 20 2018 03:38 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: It's a good year to try some good old collusion. Correct the market this winter because all the big prizes are hitting free agency next winter. But if the MLBPA attempts and/or succeeds in having this labeled as collusion, I will not be a very happy camper.

Edgy MD Jan 20 2018 03:59 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Well, I'm only half serious, but I certainly object to all the ways the league puts artificial restraints on the market. Tony Clark's reign as MLBPA president hasn't impressed me so far, and if he can score one against the suits, I'm all for it.

Nymr83 Jan 20 2018 07:09 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

teams getting smarter isn't collusion and i have a feeling there'll be no talk like this next year when the Yankees/Dodgers have "reset" their luxury taxes and handed 300 million contracts to machado and harper

Zvon Jan 20 2018 09:09 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Mex17 wrote: It's January 20th for Pete's sake, and so many guys are still out there, including most of the top ones. I understand that this new generation of executives think differently and are effectively (without colluding with one another) causing a market correction, but at some point you have to sign people and get ready for Spring Training and the season. Either there is going to be an explosion of news really soon or a lot of major league caliber players who have baseball left in them are going to be applying to their local Wal-Marts for jobs. And, on a side note, I can easily see this market correction leading to big-time labor strife down the road. If sabermetric inclined GMs are now not willing to pay for the decline years of players, then the players should then demand that they get arbitration and free agency earlier in their careers. Are the owners going to be willing to move on that, and what will the players have to give up on order to get it? Pace of play concessions maybe? Mex17 wrote: It's a good year to try some good old collusion. Correct the market this winter because all the big prizes are hitting free agency next winter. But if the MLBPA attempts and/or succeeds in having this labeled as collusion, I will not be a very happy camper. Great posts. I don't care what either side does. If ticket prices go up faster than the rate of inflation, I will not be going to games anymore. As it is, as a form of protest, I've only been to a handful (maybe two handfuls) over the last decade. I have never stepped foot in Citi Field. Don't care if I never do. MLB.tv does me just fine for $99 bucks a season (I'm grandfathered in at that rate for a bit because I was an early subscriber). Like David Ortiz says: Every teeng, every gaane!

seawolf17 Jan 20 2018 09:21 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Zvon wrote: I have never stepped foot in Citi Field. Don't care if I never do. Wait, really? Not a single game since 2008?

Zvon Jan 20 2018 09:39 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

seawolf17 wrote: Zvon wrote: I have never stepped foot in Citi Field. Don't care if I never do. Wait, really? Not a single game since 2008? Nope. I see the Mets play in Philly. And down in Washington a few times. Both beautiful stadiums. Citi is too, no doubt from what I see. I won't give the Wilpons a cent of my $ aside from the caps and the occasional jacket, which might go to MLB and MLBPA anyway for all I know. When the Wilpons are gone, I will celebrate by getting a room in NYC and going to ten freakin games straight! It's just too expensive for me to bear with the way they run our beloved team. My brother took his family of 4 to a game at Citi and it cost him $400 all told, with food and beers and sodas and parking and gas and tolls ( he lives down here in SJ too) and alladat. Hey, I put my money where my mouth is. Look what spellcheck gives you for Wilpons. haha.

seawolf17 Jan 20 2018 09:47 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Zvon wrote: Zvon wrote: I have never stepped foot in Citi Field. Don't care if I never do. Wait, really? Not a single game since 2008? Nope. I see the Mets play in Philly. And down in Washington a few times. Both beautiful stadiums. Citi is too, no doubt from what I see. I won't give the Wilpons a cent of my $ aside from the caps and the occasional jacket, which might go to MLB and MLBPA anyway for all I know. When the Wilpons are gone, I will celebrate by getting a room in NYC and going to ten freakin games straight! It's just too expensive for me to bear with the way they run our beloved team. My brother took his family of 4 to a game at Citi and it cost him $400 all told, with food and beers and sodas and parking and gas and tolls ( he lives down here in SJ too) and alladat. Hey, I put my money where my mouth is. Look what spellcheck gives you for Wilpons. haha. Nice. Well done.

Zvon Jan 20 2018 10:14 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

seawolf17 wrote: Nice. Well done. Thank you sir.

Lefty Specialist Jan 20 2018 10:26 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: It's a good year to try some good old collusion. Please, we've got enough collusion already.

Mex17 Jan 20 2018 11:07 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

I just checked ESPN just to see if anybody signed anybody today. Nothing but crickets. Can you imagine J.D. Martinez having to go to work and have to say "Do you want fries with that?" following a 45 HR, 1.107 OPS season at age 29?

Nymr83 Jan 20 2018 11:42 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Do you work for the union? Why do you care how latw they sign or what they get? I am happy if more good players get priced down for Freddie Coupon

Edgy MD Jan 21 2018 08:14 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Of 166 free agents, 38 have been signed. Taking a random top 20 from CBS sports,12 of the top 20 free agents remain unsigned, including eight of the top 10. Those numbers go up to 13 and nine (!) if you don't count Shohei Ohtani.

41Forever Jan 21 2018 08:55 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

I don’t think a market correction is necessarily a sign of collusion. I also think agents have a hand in draggging things out. I wonder how many of the remaining unsigned guys are Boras clients.

Edgy MD Jan 21 2018 09:35 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

I'm not really arguing collusion, but I don't think the majority of guys left unsigned is necessarily a real and spontaneous market correction.

Mex17 Jan 21 2018 10:09 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Nymr83 wrote: Do you work for the union? Why do you care how latw they sign or what they get? Of 166 free agents, 38 have been signed. @Nymr83: You don't think that this is worthy of a general discussion on a baseball board?

Ashie62 Jan 21 2018 10:10 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

I just want 2B General Dozier. Interweb says Red Sox are offering 125 million to J.D. Martinez

Mex17 Jan 21 2018 10:12 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: I'm not really arguing collusion, but I don't think the majority of guys left unsigned is necessarily a real and spontaneous market correction. Seems to me that it would have to be one or the other. Either executives specifically agreed amongst themselves not to sign each others players or they did not.

Edgy MD Jan 21 2018 10:13 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Yeah, but I'm certainly humble enough to acknowledge that I don't know. There's a not necessarily on both sides of the question.

Frayed Knot Jan 21 2018 10:32 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Never a bad time to toss some Paul Carrack into the mix [youtube:1nsc0bbt]Vo_GMMLULXw[/youtube:1nsc0bbt]

Frayed Knot Jan 21 2018 11:54 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Maybe the players are simply holding out for too much based on recents trends that they thought were sure to continue? Joe Posnanski on mlb.com points out the most recent $150 mil or higher signings: Dec 2011, Albert Pujols -- 10 years/$240 -- that one hasn't turned out well now has it? Jan 2012, Prince Fielder -- 9/214 -- I assume Detroit/Texas got some financial relief when the injury ended his career, but the Tigers still paid chunk of the freight to make him go away only partway through the deal Dec 2013, Robinson Cano -- 10/240 -- didn't start well. Is going better now but the now 35 y/o still has six seasons to go on his deal and his team hasn't sniffed the playoffs since he got there Dec 2013, Jacoby Ellsbury -- 7/153 -- Yanx are wishing he'd just disappear Dec 2015, Jason Heyward -- 8/184 -- not off to a good start, eh? At least (Moody Blues) Justin Heyward is going into the (R&R) HoF this year. Jan 2016, Chris Davis -- 7/161 Not that this year's crop is necessarily expecting 150 million dollar deals (although who knows what Boras is whispering in their ears) but y'all know about the whole definition of insanity thing.

Nymr83 Jan 22 2018 12:59 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

This year's group can hardly expect 50 million. All the top guys have serious concerns and none play a premium position

smg58 Jan 22 2018 01:15 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Martinez at least is a Boras client. He is hoping for 6 and 150, but so far the Red Sox are standing firm at 5 and 125. After the damage done to Stephen Drew's career and earning potential when Boras rejected the QO and then refused to accept that one year was all Drew would get until the season was half over, Boras can only go so far with being stubborn and the league knows it. I don't think it is a collusion. Given the talent in next year's free agent pool and the way the luxury tax rules are written, there is a tangible reason for the big spenders to get under the tax threshold. And that has suppressed the market, although I think smaller payroll teams are scrambling to re-assess their spending plans for the offseason now that players they assumed were out of their price range no longer appear to be so.

Frayed Knot Jan 22 2018 01:21 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Nymr83 wrote: This year's group can hardly expect 50 million. All the top guys have serious concerns and none play a premium position I bet if we were to dig up one of those early off-season prediction columns baseball writers seem to be required to write each year that there'd be projections of $100mil+ contracts for several of the still-unsigned dudes. Not that that means they all should get those numbers, but judging from recent trends ... yadda yadda At some point this winter there was a rumor that the Yanx had extended a $130-ish offer to Darvish (IIRC) although the Darvish camp quickly denied that was ever the case - so who knows. But other than that there's been very little from the rumor mill even about which teams are talking (or NOT talking) to which players much less what kind of money they're talking about.

Zvon Jan 22 2018 01:55 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Never a bad time to toss some Paul Carrack into the mix Holy schma-0-ly! I know Carrack from Squeeze and his subsequent solo work (two songs I absolutely love: Tempted/Squeeze & Button Off Of My Shirt/solo), but had no inkling that he sang How Long! Amazin'. So I wiki'd him. He also did some time with ROXY MUSIC! And Mike & The Mechanics! I attended a Roger Waters/Radio K.A.O.S. concert and had the CD, so I knew he played on the disc and toured with Waters. But all this other stuff I just read...... BANG>>>ZOOM>>>BACK TO SCHOOL! [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Carrack I could swear I've posted this here before. [youtube]1UAQpXahom4[/youtube]

Mex17 Jan 22 2018 09:51 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Maybe the players are simply holding out for too much based on recents trends that they thought were sure to continue? Joe Posnanski on mlb.com points out the most recent $150 mil or higher signings: Dec 2011, Albert Pujols -- 10 years/$240 -- that one hasn't turned out well now has it? Jan 2012, Prince Fielder -- 9/214 -- I assume Detroit/Texas got some financial relief when the injury ended his career, but the Tigers still paid chunk of the freight to make him go away only partway through the deal Dec 2013, Robinson Cano -- 10/240 -- didn't start well. Is going better now but the now 35 y/o still has six seasons to go on his deal and his team hasn't sniffed the playoffs since he got there Dec 2013, Jacoby Ellsbury -- 7/153 -- Yanx are wishing he'd just disappear Dec 2015, Jason Heyward -- 8/184 -- not off to a good start, eh? At least (Moody Blues) Justin Heyward is going into the (R&R) HoF this year. Jan 2016, Chris Davis -- 7/161 Not that this year's crop is necessarily expecting 150 million dollar deals (although who knows what Boras is whispering in their ears) but y'all know about the whole definition of insanity thing. This.

Edgy MD Jan 23 2018 12:07 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

I'm not too sure about the have serious concerns/none play premium positions thing. I mean, sure, but Chris Davis, Prince Fielder, Jason Heyward ...

Frayed Knot Jan 23 2018 12:59 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Rumor has the Brewers making an offer to Darvish -- something that might make a dent in the FA logjam -- although no word yet as to how much, how long, or even how true.

Frayed Knot Feb 01 2018 08:39 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Virtually no movement on the remaining big FAs even though it's now Feb 1st and almost two weeks since this thread was started. The player's union is getting anxious with Kensley Jansen mentioning the 'strike' word as a possible resort (I don't think they're anywhere near that point as a group at this time). Also, Ken Davidoff talks today about "the hole in which the players have placed themselves after negotiating a highly unfavorable collective bargaining agreement." Not quite sure what's so unfavorable about it since the FA and revenue sharing rules are pretty much unchanged from the last few agreements. On the other hand, both Darvish and Hosmer are reportedly sitting on multiple $100+ offers but are waiting to see if better ones suddenly jump up via late interest from other clubs and Hosmer is said to be insisting on something north of seven years ... all of which makes talks of collusion a bit tougher to sell. Speculation then is that lesser FAs are waiting until the likes of Darvish & Hosmer 'set the market' before they start agreeing to anything.

seawolf17 Feb 02 2018 12:59 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

[my private fantasy world] Okay, Sandy. It's time to get Darvish, Moustakas, Arrieta, Hosmer, Lucroy, Martinez, and Lance Lynn in a room. $10M each for 2018, let's win a fucking championship, and then you can all be free agents again and make even BIGGER money. [/my private fantasy world]

MFS62 Feb 02 2018 01:18 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

seawolf17 wrote: [my private fantasy world] Okay, Sandy. It's time to get Darvish, Moustakas, Arrieta, Hosmer, Lucroy, Martinez, and Lance Lynn in a room. $10M each for 2018, let's win a fucking championship, and then you can all be free agents again and make even BIGGER money. [/my private fantasy world] And I will gladly gag Scott Boras, tie him up, and throw him in a dumpster while this is going on. And I'll keep him there until all the players are signed. Let's do it! Later OE: I'd do it even if you don't do that.

bmfc1 Feb 02 2018 04:53 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

The Players apparently agree with the title of this thread and are considering a boycott of spring training: [tweet:16juie3l]https://twitter.com/bvanwagenen/status/959461867990155265[/tweet:16juie3l]

Ceetar Feb 02 2018 05:28 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

well, i'm not sure one agency's PR speaks for the entirety of the players, especially since he doesn't even pick the number of actual unioned players and just mentions the 40 man x 30 clubs. (which also excludes the minor leaguers)

Nymr83 Feb 02 2018 05:29 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

i dont care about spring training games or who shows up to them.

Edgy MD Feb 02 2018 05:31 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

That's a shot across the bow if ever I saw one. Brodie got Yoenis Céspedes the highest annual salary of any outfielder ever (at least, until next season), got Robinson Cano his $200 million contract, and got Tim Tebow ... a job! Boras Shmoras.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 02 2018 05:33 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Whatever happened to Bean Stringfellow? Are the players thinking of boycotting spring training? Or just not playing in the games? I don't care about the games either, but if they don't get played, it will surely delay the start of the regular season, and that I do care about.

Edgy MD Feb 02 2018 05:36 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

It would also cost the owners revenue as well as the cities they made deals with.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 02 2018 05:38 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Yes. That's why I can (sort of) envision a spring training where the players do their workouts and everything, but sit out the games. They'll get in shape, and see live pitching in batting practice and stuff, but the owners would feel the pinch of the canceled games. But I think that there would have to be at least a week's worth of exhibition games before the regular season could start. Maybe a player boycott of spring training games could run until around March 20. That would definitely provide a financial hit.

Ceetar Feb 02 2018 05:40 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

This is one agent's threatening memo, if there were serious and actual discussions it'd come from a different source. The veterans all take off the early spring games after like 2 innings or so and are replaced by minor leaguers not represented by the union.

Nymr83 Feb 02 2018 05:40 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

once it affects the regular season i'd care. but to me, this one is on the players (and Jeter) - the teams have gotten wiser about where the value lies and the current CBA, which the players were happy with, has plenty of mechanisms to discourage spending with no collusion required (Encourages tanking, penalizes signing good but not great free agents with draft pick loss, and the luxury tax threshold that rests when you go under is a HUGE culprit. the Yankees might already have signed Moustakas and Walker if they werent trying to reset their tax for a year) The other big problem is letting Derek Jeter buy and gut a baseball team. the teams that traded for Stanton, Ozuna, Yelich, and Gordon could have been homes for Martinez, Walker, and others and the Marlins won't make corresponding signings. a fire sale like that one definitely depresses free agency. MLB players remember: BLAME JETER!

Benjamin Grimm Feb 02 2018 05:47 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Yeah, I don't think there's any colluding going on. But I do think that the players will be taking a tougher stance in the next CBA. I've heard talk of instituting a minimum payroll for each team.

Vic Sage Feb 02 2018 05:55 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Unless there is real evidence of collusion, any boycott or strike would be awful for the union, since it would basically be an admission that the deal that they willingly negotiated and signed is not a good one. At least in football, when a player under contract holds out, its because his deal is NOT GUARANTEED. Those deals bind one party and not the other; unilateral deals like that are inherently unfair, and the only option that players working under a bad unilateral deal like that have is to hold out. Not so in baseball. Their contracts are guaranteed, and current deals are based on a CBA that the players negotiated and willingly signed. Collusion is easy to say, but harder to prove. And there is plenty of evidence to support an alternate theory: that any competent GM would operate this way under the current CBA's rule. If they don't like how GMs are operating, then they can try to negotiate a better deal the next time.

Nymr83 Feb 02 2018 07:15 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

agree with Vic. I'd like to see the next CBA change the rules in a bunch of ways. NFL strangely enough has minimum spending but also maximum. since MLB doesnt have a hard cap maybe it shouldn't have a hard floor, but an "anti-luxury tax" where if you dont spend enough you have to pay into a pool for X (union/league can decide what the pool goes for - how about medical expenses for anyone who doesnt have the years of service time towards lifetime insurance and suffers a career ending injury? i'm sure they could think of others that wouldnt be a tough swallow)

Frayed Knot Feb 02 2018 07:31 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

- one agent saying that "a boycott of spring training may be a starting point if behavior doesn't change" isn't quite the same as saying players are considering it much less that it's a likely scenario - he might want to address those players reportedly sitting on existing offers--in some cases multiple, multiple year, six-figures-plus ones--as part of the reason for the log jam - and if the next group of players is waiting to see what the first group does (ie. establishes a market) then that can't be all on the owners either - I had previously never heard of Brodie Van Wagenen. Wonder what his non-porn name is?

Edgy MD Feb 02 2018 07:36 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Well you are missing out on all the excitement that following each and every action Brodie undertakes can bring you. The cool thing is that if anybody is sitting on an offer of that length, it's Boras client J.D. Martinez. if Boras posts that screed, it's transparently self-serving and nothing more. So Brodie is carrying water for somebody else's client. Nice work, gents.

Frayed Knot Feb 02 2018 07:41 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: ... if anybody is sitting on an offer of that length, it's Boras client J.D. Martinez. Reportedly both Darvish and Hosmer are. Hosmer is said to be holding out for eight years and one or both of them are trying to see if one or both of the Yanx and/or Dodgers will be able to create enough "cap" space left and jump in.

Nymr83 Feb 02 2018 07:58 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Hosmer's offer is supposedly from the Padres - they aren't contenders and I honestly thinks its a really bad idea for them. If I were them, I'd say the offer is on the table until Monday and then we're calling Duda/Morrison's agents about 1-2 year deals.

Ashie62 Feb 02 2018 08:00 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

IMHO Players are being offered contracts that express their value in the "here and now." Sadly, it feels like teams are doing auction fantasy with the $26 budget. It becomes very unfunny if deGrom & Noah get away from us. Should Hosmer and Moustakis get crushed on money I could see something like former Royals teammates showing up late for camp. It might be a fugly fans and players Season of Discontent. Geez, Bruce looks expensive at 39 million.

Edgy MD Feb 02 2018 08:11 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Nymr83 wrote: Hosmer's offer is supposedly from the Padres - they aren't contenders and I honestly thinks its a really bad idea for them. If I were them, I'd say the offer is on the table until Monday and then we're calling Duda/Morrison's agents about 1-2 year deals. Duda would crush it in San Diego. Just my impression based on nothing scientific, of course, but I think he'd be a baseball-mashing demigod there.

41Forever Feb 02 2018 08:55 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

It's tough to prove, or even suggest, collusion when there are $100 million contracts out there that players aren't signing.

Ashie62 Feb 02 2018 11:34 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Like who?

Frayed Knot Feb 03 2018 01:15 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Ashie62 wrote: Like who? As mentioned several times earlier in the thread, there are reports that both Yu Darvish (Milwaukee and I think at least one other) and Eric Hosmer (SD & KC) have standing offers for contracts north of $100 mil but are stalling with the idea that even better ones could be forthcoming, and that others are waiting for those two to sign before they choose to latch on with anyone lest they maybe leave dollars on the table. And that's fine if that's what they want to do, but you can't do that AND complain about the slow pace of signings.

seawolf17 Feb 03 2018 01:31 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

But has anyone from a team actually confirmed that? Have the Red Sox actually said "Hey, we offered the guy 5/125?" I don't think so. It's all "sources," which can potentially be a load of crap. I'm not saying there *is* collusion, but it's really weird that there are *this* many big names still floating around in February.

Edgy MD Feb 03 2018 02:23 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Vic Sage wrote: Unless there is real evidence of collusion, any boycott or strike would be awful for the union, since it would basically be an admission that the deal that they willingly negotiated and signed is not a good one. At least in football, when a player under contract holds out, its because his deal is NOT GUARANTEED. Those deals bind one party and not the other; unilateral deals like that are inherently unfair, and the only option that players working under a bad unilateral deal like that have is to hold out. Not so in baseball. Their contracts are guaranteed, and current deals are based on a CBA that the players negotiated and willingly signed. Collusion is easy to say, but harder to prove. And there is plenty of evidence to support an alternate theory: that any competent GM would operate this way under the current CBA's rule. If they don't like how GMs are operating, then they can try to negotiate a better deal the next time. Sure, but that's the fun part. This isn't Tony Clark making a threat that had he'd have to make good on or utterly lose face. This is an agent trying to scare up some action by stirring up shit. Yay! February drama!

Zvon Feb 03 2018 02:51 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Let'em play chicken. I don't care until things start to thaw out in a month or so. We can be pretty sure that we have what we basically have, Metswise. Even though we're not quite sure what that is.

Mex17 Feb 03 2018 01:44 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: if Boras posts that screed, it's transparently self-serving and nothing more. So Brodie is carrying water for somebody else's client. Nice work, gents. Nymr83 wrote: If I were them, I'd say the offer is on the table until Monday and then we're calling Duda/Morrison's agents about 1-2 year deals. Can collusion run both ways? What if the agents are in agreement with one another that the smaller guys are not going to sign until the bigger guys get theirs? Said differently, could Morrison and Duda's agents theoretically be in agreement with Boras that they are not going to undercut the market for Hosmer?

Edgy MD Feb 03 2018 01:54 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

No, the American way is that labor gets to organize. But Duda's agent (The Beverly Hills Sports Council, glad to meet you) is obliged to be working for Duda. And I'm not seeing an end game for him in that scenario.

Mex17 Feb 03 2018 02:06 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: Duda's agent (The Beverly Hills Sports Council, glad to meet you) is obliged to be working for Duda. There's the rub. If you were Duda and you don't know where you are headed or if you are headed anywhere at all, would you not be a little miffed that your family's future is being held up over Hosmer being a whiny bitch over not getting a guaranteed eighth year? And what if you actually did find out that your agent has a back room handshake deal with Boras saying that he is not going to shop you to KC or SD out of a concern that Hosmer won't be best served by that? All of that is speculative, of course.

Mex17 Feb 03 2018 02:12 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: And I'm not seeing an end game for him in that scenario. The end game would be the persistently escalating aggregate AAV for the players that Van Wagenen mentioned in his Twitter post. A more lucrative Hosmer contract might better serve that as opposed to a more moderate Duda contract. Hence the incentive for agents to "collude" with one another.

Edgy MD Feb 03 2018 02:39 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Maybe. That's certainly a possibility. The other view is it takes a competitive bidder off the table for Duda and reduces his leverage.

Mex17 Feb 03 2018 05:30 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Regardless, here is my idea for a compromise when the next CBA negotiation comes around. . . Players get: -Free Agency after four years (down from six). -Arbitration after two years (down from three). Owners get: -Pace of play concessions. -A hard January 15th deadline for Major League free agents to sign Major League deals, after which you cannot sign a Major League deal until June 1st (if you want to sign a minor league deal, that's your prerogative). Both get: -Performance based metrics (the same ones that the new breed of GMs are using to evaluate free agents now) to be used in arbitration hearings, shifting away from mere service time being a primary factor. This could benefit either side on a case by case basis. . .the player gets closer to market value if he performs well or a pay cut if he regresses.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 03 2018 07:21 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Mex17 wrote: -Free Agency after four years (down from six). That will never happen. Mex17 wrote: -A hard January 15th deadline for Major League free agents to sign Major League deals, after which you cannot sign a Major League deal until June 1st (if you want to sign a minor league deal, that's your prerogative). That will never never never never happen.

Ashie62 Feb 03 2018 08:32 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

seawolf17 wrote: But has anyone from a team actually confirmed that? Have the Red Sox actually said "Hey, we offered the guy 5/125?" I don't think so. It's all "sources," which can potentially be a load of crap. I'm not saying there *is* collusion, but it's really weird that there are *this* many big names still floating around in February. Pretty much. There appears to be a "glut" of mediocre ballplayers looking for a home. Good luck to them all; the times they are changing. Have not seen any 5/125 signings as of Saturday 2/3/18 Just sayin.

Frayed Knot Feb 03 2018 08:50 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Both get: -Performance based metrics (the same ones that the new breed of GMs are using to evaluate free agents now) to be used in arbitration hearings, shifting away from mere service time being a primary factor. This could benefit either side on a case by case basis. . .the player gets closer to market value if he performs well or a pay cut if he regresses. Arbitration is merely an either/or hearing in which both sides are free to make their case via whatever facts or opinions they wish. iow, there's nothing stopping anyone from using performance based metrics now. In fact I suspect most already do use them currently, at least they use the ones they think will buttress their side of the argument. Service time is but one piece of the puzzle but there's nothing codified in the process as to how big a factor it plays. If you want to diminish (or eliminate) the effect of service time you need to change the mindset of the arbiters. Again, I suspect that's something both sides already do whenever is suits their purpose. Owners: "Yeah he's sixth year but he's only averaged 120 ABs/season so has played far less than your typical final arb year guy" Agent: "Sure it's his first year of eligibility, but how many others in his position have had this level of success?"

Mex17 Feb 03 2018 11:39 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer. Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 04 2018 02:19 AM

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Mex17 wrote: -Free Agency after four years (down from six). That will never happen. Mex17 wrote: -A hard January 15th deadline for Major League free agents to sign Major League deals, after which you cannot sign a Major League deal until June 1st (if you want to sign a minor league deal, that's your prerogative). That will never never never never happen. Let me say it this way then. If I was a member of the MLBPA right now, I would be getting ready to go completely nuclear and scorch the earth if the owners do not grant free agency after four years once this CBA expires in 2021. And, since I know that in collective barbaning one side does not unilaterally give unless they get something back, the signing deadline was something I thought of. I'm sure that the GMs and managers are not happy right now not knowing the full compliment of their teams two weeks from camps opening.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 04 2018 12:46 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

I think the more likely solution is a minimum payroll.

Mex17 Feb 04 2018 01:02 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I think the more likely solution is a minimum payroll. That does not help the guys who are hitting the free market for the first time on the north end of 30.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 04 2018 01:27 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

It's much better than forcing them to accept a minor league contract. If teams are forced to spend, then some of that money will go to 30-year-old free agents.

Mex17 Feb 04 2018 01:33 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: It's much better than forcing them to accept a minor league contract. Who's doing that? If you are so stubborn so that you cannot accept how you are valued after a 2 1/2 month long process, you deserve to get screwed.

Mex17 Feb 04 2018 02:09 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: If teams are forced to spend, then some of that money will go to 30-year-old free agents. It's one thing to get paid for a season, quite another to get paid at market value over several seasons while you are in your prime. Under the current conditions, guys can now get cheapskated when they are younger and producing on the field and are powerless off of it, and then get thrown away once they attain more power but are now in the latter half or past their primes. The aggregate result is lower overall career earnings, even if you got paid top dollar for maybe a season or two in between Scylla and Charybdis. The only way to address that is to grant arbitration eligibility and free agency earlier in their careers. AAV is not the problem here, length of term is.

Edgy MD Feb 04 2018 03:05 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

And by "earlier in their careers," I'd say, "right at the start of their careers."

Ceetar Feb 04 2018 03:19 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

players got themselves into this mess at the last CBA. I'm not even sure what the players could give up in a negotiation at this point to pull things back in their favor in terms of salary cap/floor/free agency/etc. except the labor. they can withhold the labor. And the best way to do that, which they're greedily not likely to do, is to share the pot with the minor leaguers.

41Forever Feb 04 2018 03:53 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

I’m not sure what the “mess” is. It’s not like these guys are getting screwed. They are choosing between which team’s $100 million contract they will accept. And we’re talking about a handful of very, very good players. If Bryce Harper goes unsigned next year, that’s one thing. Yu Darvish is another.

Nymr83 Feb 04 2018 04:05 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

There is no mess, there is just something for agents who may have given bad advice to their clients to whine about. And something for writers to write about at a slow time of year. Assuming a guy is keeping himself in shape (and, that is their job) what does it take for a hitter to be "ready"? a week of spring training? maybe 2 weeks for the pitchers? so when we get to the point that more than a couple of good players are looking like they wont start the year on time, it'll be a "mess" - right now its a somewhat interesting talking point. As for changes to the next CBA, the union should push for a salary floor or punishment if a 'soft floor' isnt met and to eliminate rules that encourage tanking (and therefore encourage not signing players better than those you have now at prices you can afford).

Ceetar Feb 04 2018 04:27 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

41Forever wrote: I’m not sure what the “mess” is. It’s not like these guys are getting screwed. They are choosing between which team’s $100 million contract they will accept. And we’re talking about a handful of very, very good players. If Bryce Harper goes unsigned next year, that’s one thing. Yu Darvish is another. The actual numbers aren't important, it's the percentage of profits that might be the focus. It could be argued that literally 99% of the players are underpaid. A waiter in 2017 makes more in tips than in 1997, but it's the same 15-20%, meanwhile the owners are making $8 profit on a $15 hamburger instead of $2 profit on an 8 dollar burger. It doesn't go unnoticed to the players that all the teams are raking in additional cash from the MLBAM sale/dividends/whatever it is. Owners get richer and richer, and the players wealth isn't keeping up at all. They knew this, and instead their sticking point was a 4 day longer season to work in extra offdays. The owners have this salary cap/tax thing that heavily incentives not going over it. They're getting new stadiums paid for, free* labor from minor leaguers. regular payments from advanced media. record television contracts.

Frayed Knot Feb 04 2018 11:42 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Mex17 wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: It's much better than forcing them to accept a minor league contract. Who's doing that? If you are so stubborn so that you cannot accept how you are valued after a 2 1/2 month long process, you deserve to get screwed. If teams know that a player needs to sign by a certain date or risk missing half a season they'll just delay until that time to force the player's hand. That's essentially what was done with drafted players (that plus a kind of floating cap) the sole purpose of which was to take away most of their bargaining power. But those guys don't have a union and it's tough to see the ones who do agreeing to such a plan. Ceetar wrote: players got themselves into this mess at the last CBA. What changes happened during the last CBA that were detrimental to the union?

41Forever Feb 04 2018 06:01 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Ceetar wrote: 41Forever wrote: I’m not sure what the “mess” is. It’s not like these guys are getting screwed. They are choosing between which team’s $100 million contract they will accept. And we’re talking about a handful of very, very good players. If Bryce Harper goes unsigned next year, that’s one thing. Yu Darvish is another. The actual numbers aren't important, it's the percentage of profits that might be the focus. It could be argued that literally 99% of the players are underpaid. A waiter in 2017 makes more in tips than in 1997, but it's the same 15-20%, meanwhile the owners are making $8 profit on a $15 hamburger instead of $2 profit on an 8 dollar burger. It doesn't go unnoticed to the players that all the teams are raking in additional cash from the MLBAM sale/dividends/whatever it is. Owners get richer and richer, and the players wealth isn't keeping up at all. They knew this, and instead their sticking point was a 4 day longer season to work in extra offdays. The owners have this salary cap/tax thing that heavily incentives not going over it. They're getting new stadiums paid for, free* labor from minor leaguers. regular payments from advanced media. record television contracts. Interesting thought. But why do I, as a consumer, care about the profit split of the hamburger? The owner has a stake in the waiter being happy since he is the direct contact with the customer and, if he is a good businessman, will treat him fairly or lose him to a competitor. The waiter is hired to perform a task, and if he is not happy with what he is paid, he can A) Negotiate for a higher wage based on his skills and performance, or B) Take his skills and performance to someone else who will pay him what he feels is appropriate. In a competitive market, he'll do well. He also has the option of opening his own burger place. As a consumer, I care only about the quality of a $15 hamburger and the quality of the service. And if the burger becomes too expensive in relation to the quality of the product or the quality of the service, I'll start bringing my family somewhere else. Darvish is a fine pitcher, and he'll soon be very, very rich. He's entitled to what he can negotiate for his services based on what the market will bear for fine pitchers regardless of what the owner is making. Just because he's not being offered as much as he thinks he should be offered -- or is delaying signing because he thinks that is a tactic that will increase the competition for his services and inflate the value of his contract -- doesn't mean that there is collusion. Owners have an incentive to field the best team they can because winning increases attendance and presumably profits. Unless they are Derek Jeter, who seems intent on destroying a franchise and will soon learn how many fans are willing to pay to see a team with no good players or even a really cool home run sculpture, if he gets his way. Now, as a consumer, paying $50 for a seat at a Major League game limits my ability to attend Major League games. And that's a consideration of the owner, because he's still paying those contracts regardless of attendance.

Frayed Knot Feb 04 2018 07:55 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer. Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 07 2018 04:03 PM

I'm also thinking that some of our suggestions here are, to a certain extent anyway, solutions in search of a problem. While the number of unsigned FAs this late in the off-season is certainly unusual, other than the fact that we bored fans have been denied our typical helpings of hot stove fodder, there's nothing to say that November/December signings are superior to January/February ones. There are still going to be the same number of jobs as there were last season and either these guys are going to get signed in the next few weeks or they'll be replaced by rookies and pre-FA types instead which, considering that a certain segment of the fan base is always itching to "play the kids", this is kind of what some fans claim to want. But absent collusion (no evidence of it in my view - certainly not yet) and absent the idea that owners are ignoring these guys wholesale or not even returning agent phone calls in pursuit of some end I can't fathom (at least partially not true) this is merely the yearly cat-and-mouse dance that's been going on for the entirety of the FA era, just on a different timetable this year. It'll get solved. oe: a broad analogy comes to mind from earlier in the decade when some fans and writers were crying about there being too few HoF'ers inducted one year and therefore an immediate change in the whole voting process was needed. It was caused in part by the early steroid year guys and the idea that only one or two newbies, or in some cases only vet-committee inductees, was too few for some to handle and it was said to be making a mockery of the system and doing everything up to and including ruining the economic base of a small town in upstate NY (as if that's the reason the HoF exists). Since then nothing has changed except for voting becoming somewhat more restrictive (15 years on the ballot down to 10) and yet the last four years will have had more inductees than in any other four-year period in the place's existence. Results from one year (or even longer) are not the same thing as a lasting trend and certainly not proof of a broken system.

MFS62 Feb 04 2018 08:45 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

And then maybe its just THIS: https://www.crawfishboxes.com/2018/2/3/ ... -moustakas Are the "big" free agents this year really worth what they're asking? Later

Edgy MD Feb 04 2018 10:41 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

As a consumer, I care plenty about the justice behind the products and services I buy. And baseball has done everything it can to constrain the opportunities for players to offer their skills elsewhere.

Lefty Specialist Feb 05 2018 01:32 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

So if I was a fan of a normal team, I would say "Cool. We can swoop in and get some FA's on the cheap and really build up our roster." Alas, I'm a fan of the Mets, and they'll find a way to f it up.

Ceetar Feb 05 2018 02:40 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Lefty Specialist wrote: So if I was a fan of a normal team, I would say "Cool. We can swoop in and get some FA's on the cheap and really build up our roster." Alas, I'm a fan of the Mets, and they'll find a way to f it up. so called 'normal' teams aren't even doing that. you could say that that's what the Mets did with Gonzalez, Reyes, and Bruce though. Got a slugger and a veteran bench for cheap no?

Centerfield Feb 05 2018 03:18 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

If I had to summarize the Mets off-season, I'd say they signed a middle reliever, a middling hitter, and a couple of middle-age guys.

41Forever Feb 05 2018 06:01 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer. Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 05 2018 09:03 PM

Interesting story by Verducci about the free agent market and issues we've been discussing. Mets content regarding Olliver Perez's contract and Jay Bruce. Headline: The Free Agent Market is Frozen Because the Players Bargained for Luxury, not Labor [url]https://www.si.com/mlb/2018/02/02/brodie-van-wagenen-agent-free-agency-market

Benjamin Grimm Feb 05 2018 06:57 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

That is an interesting article. It's been said that Boras always relies on finding "one dumb owner" each season. If, as the article suggests, the age of dumbness is over, then he'll have to find a new methodology. And if this plays out as Verducci suggests, it doesn't mean that player's careers will be shorter, just that they'll have shorter-term contracts, and earn less money, as they get deeper into their thirties and become less productive. There have surely been many cases where a team has paid an older player for his past productive seasons spent in another organization. It had to be only a matter of time before it became clear that this doesn't make much sense.

Ceetar Feb 05 2018 08:01 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

man, that's some serious shilling for owners. Mentions younger players are more valuable but doesn't mention anything about minor leaguers or years of control or any of that. Doesn't mention the rising revenue and that contracts shouldn't compare to 2008. Different run scoring environment too. record home runs, juiced balls. Of course a guy like Chacin is going to get less than Perez did, Perez was three years younger! Poorly researched. Jason Bay was much better than Jay Bruce too.

Frayed Knot Feb 05 2018 08:52 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

'Mentions younger players are more valuable but doesn't mention anything about minor leaguers or years of control or any of that." -- Because it's not relevant to the topic, nor have those parameters changed recently. "Doesn't mention the rising revenue" --- Yes he does, twice in fact. "... and that contracts shouldn't compare to 2008." -- He's not (only) comparing the numbers on the contracts, he's comparing the mindset on offering deals "Different run scoring environment too. record home runs, juiced balls." -- Run scoring in 2007 was a shade higher than in 2017. HRs are up compared to a decade ago but run scoring is not. "Of course a guy like Chacin is going to get less than Perez did, Perez was three years younger!" -- But not merely 'less', Chacin signed for two years rather than three at a rate barely half as much despite it being a full ten years later

Nymr83 Feb 05 2018 09:01 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Thanks for posting the whole thing and denying Verducci his clicks. Come on 41, you should know better!

Vic Sage Feb 05 2018 09:04 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

yes to 83 and FK; no to 41 and Ceetar.

41Forever Feb 05 2018 09:05 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Nymr83 wrote: Thanks for posting the whole thing and denying Verducci his clicks. Come on 41, you should know better! Fixed. But on a technical aside, how do you guys change the link to make it look like a hot link -- say, the headline -- and not the URL?

Benjamin Grimm Feb 05 2018 09:10 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Paste the headline. Highlight it and click the URL button. In the tags that appear, after URL, add an = and then the hyperlink. The Free Agent Market is Frozen Because the Players Bargained for Luxury, not Labor

41Forever Feb 05 2018 09:20 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Paste the headline. Highlight it and click the URL button. In the tags that appear, after URL, add an = and then the hyperlink. The Free Agent Market is Frozen Because the Players Bargained for Luxury, not Labor Thank you!

Ceetar Feb 05 2018 09:33 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Frayed Knot wrote: 'Mentions younger players are more valuable but doesn't mention anything about minor leaguers or years of control or any of that." -- Because it's not relevant to the topic, nor have those parameters changed recently. it's relevant to his argument that owners are increasingly preferring the younger talent, and that a large portion of the productive players aren't even eligible to negotiate what they're worth. "Doesn't mention the rising revenue" --- Yes he does, twice in fact. "... and that contracts shouldn't compare to 2008." -- He's not (only) comparing the numbers on the contracts, he's comparing the mindset on offering deals I missed it I guess, but he's directly comparing numbers and the mindset he's ascribing is strictly a financial one. But that's hardly the only thing to consider. "Different run scoring environment too. record home runs, juiced balls." -- Run scoring in 2007 was a shade higher than in 2017. HRs are up compared to a decade ago but run scoring is not. right right, but Chacin and Perez gave up homers and walked too many. He at least found reasonably similar players in this comparison. They're riskier players today. "Of course a guy like Chacin is going to get less than Perez did, Perez was three years younger!" -- But not merely 'less', Chacin signed for two years rather than three at a rate barely half as much despite it being a full ten years later yes, but he's three years older! that was part of his other argument. He's also not as good, and was never as good. He's picking arbitrary end points to make them seem more similar at this juncture than they are. I mean, Perez wasn't a great signing. They really blew it on pitching that offseason all around the board, but that entire article is cherry picking and trying to ascribe an overall philosophy across the board, especially just citing a handful of examples that barely, if at all, make your point is circumspect. Notice how he didn't mention Tyler Chatwood? Because it breaks his narrative.

Edgy MD Feb 05 2018 09:41 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

If they really blew it on pitching all around the board, then that's the argument. They don't want to blow it again.

Ceetar Feb 05 2018 09:49 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: If they really blew it on pitching all around the board, then that's the argument. They don't want to blow it again. the Mets still just might sign a mid-tier guy, as reported. They've also got lots of pitchers. I'm not sure that equates to the Livan Hernandez/Tim Redding trust in Maine/Perez and maybe try Parnell as a starter mess. That was also the Putz/K-Rod offseason, and actually paying for relievers is something that's very much happening these days more than those days.

Edgy MD Feb 05 2018 09:52 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Yes, they still might. If I had to bet, I'd guess they will.

Frayed Knot Feb 05 2018 10:12 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Ceetar wrote: yes, but he's three years older! that was part of his other argument. He's also not as good, and was never as good. He's picking arbitrary end points to make them seem more similar at this juncture than they are ... But the point is that a similar-ish, if you will, pitcher is getting a deal worth only 63% when measured by AAV and just over 40% by total value. That's a BIG difference and even bigger when you add in that the newer one is after ten years of revenue and salary increases.

Ceetar Feb 05 2018 10:18 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Frayed Knot wrote: Ceetar wrote: yes, but he's three years older! that was part of his other argument. He's also not as good, and was never as good. He's picking arbitrary end points to make them seem more similar at this juncture than they are ... But the point is that a similar-ish, if you will, pitcher is getting a deal worth only 63% when measured by AAV and just over 40% by total value. That's a BIG difference and even bigger when you add in that the newer one is after ten years of revenue and salary increases. maybe they're not actually that similar-ish. Maybe there IS something that we've learned, statistically, that devalues Chacin. Hell, these guys look similar but one signed a contract more akin to Perez'

Frayed Knot Feb 05 2018 10:51 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Ceetar wrote: Maybe there IS something that we've learned, statistically, that devalues Chacin. Which was the major part of Verducci's point!!!!

Ashie62 Feb 05 2018 10:57 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Lance Lynn. A horse who eats innings. He is getting cheaper everyday.

Nymr83 Feb 06 2018 12:21 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Ashie62 wrote: Lance Lynn. A horse who eats innings. He is getting cheaper everyday. We don't know that, we only know that he remains unsigned. maybe his agent is telling hi to wait for Darvish to sign so the losers on Darvish will open up their wallets.

Ceetar Feb 06 2018 03:05 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Frayed Knot wrote: Ceetar wrote: Maybe there IS something that we've learned, statistically, that devalues Chacin. Which was the major part of Verducci's point!!!! something that devalues Chacin but NOT Perez is my point. Anyway, Verducci is the king of poorly researched points that are taken as conclusions. He's got a whole effect named for it.

Frayed Knot Feb 07 2018 04:24 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Currently unsigned -- and this isn't even the complete list, merely the most familiar names and those who have, at least more or less, been starting players recently Pedro Alvarez (age 31) Jake Arrieta (31) Jose Bautista (37) Clay Buchholz (33) Melky Cabrera (33) Chris Carter (31) Andrew Cashner (31) Alex Cobb (30) Yu Darvish (31) R A Dickey (43) Lucas Duda (32) A J Ellis (36) Yunel Escobar (31) Andre Ethiker (35) Jamie Garcia (31) Matt Garza (34) Carlos Gomez (32) Carlos Gonzalez (32) A J Griffin (30) J J Hardy (35) Greg Holland (32) Matt Holiday (38) Eric Hosmer (28) John Faso (34) Jon Jay (32) Ubaldo Jimenez (34) John Lackey (39) Adam Lind (34) Francisco Liriano (34) Jonathan Lucroy (31) Lance Lynn (30) J D Martinez (30) Cameron Maybin (30) Wade Miley (31) Logan Morrison (30) Mike Moustakas (29) Mike Napoli (36) Ricky Nolasco (35) Bud Norris (32) Eduardo Nunez (30) Mike Pelfrey (34) Oliver Perez (36) Brandon Phillips (36) Colby Rasmus (31) Ben Revere (29) Mark Reynolds (34) Sergio Romo (34) Bruce Rondon (27) Trevor Rosenthal (27) Anibal Sanchez (33) Michael Saunders (31) Geovany Soto (35) Drew Storen (30) Huston Street (34) Ichiro Suzuki (44) Chris Tillman (29) Chase Utley (39) Jason Vargas (35) Neil Walker (32) Jayson Werth (38) Chris Young (34) http://www.espn.com/mlb/freeagents

41Forever Feb 07 2018 05:41 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

That's a bigger list than I thought! But about a third of those guys might be done -- such as Ichiro, Utley, Dickey...

Benjamin Grimm Feb 07 2018 05:45 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

If the Mets don't go "second tier" with a starter, there are certainly some "third tier" and "fourth tier" starters available. And no, I'm not advocating for that, but it might be better than nothing. Maybe. I can't remember the last time I thought of Mike Pelfrey. I didn't know he was still around.

Edgy MD Feb 07 2018 05:55 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

I'm thinking about some Jon Jay.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 07 2018 05:58 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Jake Arrieta is only 31?

Centerfield Feb 07 2018 06:15 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Jake Arrieta is only 31? Pretty young. I think the Civil War beard makes him look older.

HahnSolo Feb 07 2018 06:35 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: If the Mets don't go "second tier" with a starter, there are certainly some "third tier" and "fourth tier" starters available. And no, I'm not advocating for that, but it might be better than nothing. Maybe. I can't remember the last time I thought of Mike Pelfrey. I didn't know he was still around. When I thought about 3rd/4th tier guys my eyes went to Liriano. But then I looked at his last two years stats and it looks like he's shot. Pelf is only 34. Wow.

Lefty Specialist Feb 07 2018 06:58 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Boy, you could put together a damned good team from that unsigned talent.

Vic Sage Feb 07 2018 09:31 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

you know something, as long as we're rounding up the usual suspects, i wouldn't be upset by another go-round with Mr. Dickey!

Frayed Knot Feb 07 2018 10:21 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Lefty Specialist wrote: Boy, you could put together a damned good team from that unsigned talent. The Las Vegas Golden Knights!! The expansion hockey team of that name has already set records for first year team wins/points/etc. This one could do the same.

MFS62 Feb 07 2018 10:26 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Vic Sage wrote: you know something, as long as we're rounding up the usual suspects, i wouldn't be upset by another go-round with Mr. Dickey! Where do I sign up for that? Later

Frayed Knot Feb 07 2018 10:32 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

MFS62 wrote: Vic Sage wrote: you know something, as long as we're rounding up the usual suspects, i wouldn't be upset by another go-round with Mr. Dickey! Where do I sign up for that? With Ferrari, the fat gent in the corner of the 'Blue Parrot' After all, the buying and selling of human beings is Casablanca's leading commodity.

MFS62 Feb 07 2018 10:46 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

you know something, as long as we're rounding up the usual suspects, i wouldn't be upset by another go-round with Mr. Dickey! Where do I sign up for that? With Ferrari, the fat gent in the corner of the 'Blue Parrot' After all, the buying and selling of human beings is Casablanca's leading commodity. Well, it would be Dickey's second time with the club. So we could ...... wait for it ....... play it again, Sam.* Later * i know, I know. Its wasn't really said in the movie, but people think it was. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/inde ... 318AACqtiK

Edgy MD Feb 07 2018 11:14 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Now see, I was expecting some variation on the "That's what she said" yoke.

Ashie62 Feb 07 2018 11:23 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

I am pining for Carlos Gomez. That would complete the Johan Santana trade. I believe Pelfrey, Humber and Mulvey are finished.

Edgy MD Feb 07 2018 11:45 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Pelfrey wasn't part of the Johan Santana trade. Deolis Guerra, still bringing it with the Angels, was the fourth piece of that package. Pelf took a high school coaching job this winter.

MFS62 Feb 08 2018 12:07 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: Now see, I was expecting some variation on the "That's what she said" yoke. Now see, I was expecting something more appropriate for a Casablanca reference. Later

cooby Feb 08 2018 12:55 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

I never see this title without thinking of this very old and awesome Bee Gees song... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjLeqRgfnys

Nymr83 Feb 08 2018 01:04 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Vic Sage wrote: you know something, as long as we're rounding up the usual suspects, i wouldn't be upset by another go-round with Mr. Dickey! Prediction: he would outperform Harvey

Zvon Feb 08 2018 01:05 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

cooby wrote: I never see this title without thinking of this very old and awesome Bee Gees song... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjLeqRgfnys Big Bee Gees fan here, but apparently not as big as I thought. Never heard of that song, never saw that video before. Very cool.

cooby Feb 08 2018 01:26 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

As I said, very old! My sister is 7 years older than me and I know this is from sometime in the 60s, on an album she had as a young teenager :D But the words "I can't hold on much longer" are in there

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 08 2018 07:44 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: I'm thinking about some Jon Jay. Wait. You're concerned about taking away ABs from Nimmo... and you want to ADD another middling OF? I'm still hoping for the Frazier hometown - discount money to go toward sweetening a Lynn/Cobb offer... but I'm thinking about Cashner now, too.

smg58 Feb 08 2018 12:01 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Sergio Romo finished up really well with the Rays last year after looking done with the Dodgers. At a low price, he's well worth checking into. I said in November that if Lance Lynn regains more of his old stuff the second year after TJS, he could provide comparable value to Arrietta and Darvish at half the price. I still think that's true. It's still a big if, but if you think Darvish has to learn to pitch with more guile after this past season, well, Lynn has already done that.

Zvon Feb 08 2018 12:10 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

smg58 wrote: Sergio Romo finished up really well with the Rays last year after looking done with the Dodgers. At a low price, he's well worth checking into. I save everything.

Edgy MD Feb 08 2018 02:16 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I'm thinking about some Jon Jay. Wait. You're concerned about taking away ABs from Nimmo... and you want to ADD another middling OF? Well, he would be outfielder number five, a role currently being squatted by nobody. Strictly pinch-hitting, double switching, and waiting for an injury. If by some chance everybody's healthy when Conforto returns, he can go back to the Continental Congress.

Centerfield Feb 08 2018 02:34 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

There are so many "take a flyer on" guys out there if you had the roster space. Huston Street could be a great addition if he's back to being healthy. Might be a good idea to wrap up Trevor Rosenthal on a two year deal on the cheap. Both CarGo's might have something left. Colby Rasmus seems to have cured himself of the suckitude he caught in Houston. There's hidden gold on that list somewhere. The right set of eyes will find it. LWFS, I don't see the draw of Cashner, though admittedly I'm only looking at his stats. I think he was part of a game a few years ago where (I think Syndergaard?) where they set some record for tons of strikeouts but not surviving the 4th inning or something like that. He had a 1.32 WHIP, which is not only not that good, but was his best since 2014. I'd be interested to know what makes him attractive.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 08 2018 08:39 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Used to be a nasty fastball-slider-change K guy... but seems to have reinvented himself as a sinker-reliant, worm-killer type, to xFIP-belying positive effect (.266 BABIP last year); a mid-to-high 3-ERA could actually be sustainable, even with that WHIP/decreased strikeout rate. Might work very nicely as a change-of-pace back-end starter, especially given our presumed infield defensive upgrades.

Ashie62 Feb 08 2018 10:39 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Anyone attending Tim Lincecum's workout today? Word is the freak may be freaky again.

Zvon Feb 08 2018 11:04 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Centerfield wrote: There's hidden gold on that list somewhere. The right set of eyes will find it. What a great line.

MFS62 Feb 09 2018 02:59 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Talking about the Mets budget (well, even if you weren't. This is the current number): Mets RHP Zack Wheeler has won his arbitration case against the team, reports Jerry Crasnick of ESPN. Wheeler will earn $1.9 million this coming season. The Mets had filed at $1.5 million. With Wheeler's contract figured in, the Mets' payroll is currently at $146.37 million, according to Cot's Baseball Contracts. Is there room for another pitcher? Only [crossout]Sandy knows[/crossout] the Wilpons know. Later

Zvon Feb 09 2018 03:55 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

MFS62 wrote: Is there room for another pitcher? Only [crossout]Sandy knows[/crossout] the Wilpons know. Later I love mysteries. From now on that's what I'll be calling our owners. I'm always calling them cheap or broke or dickheads or whatever... From now on, they will be deemed: Mysterious. Our mysterious owners. Hey, that's up a few notches, in my book.

A Boy Named Seo Feb 13 2018 04:35 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

So with pitchers and catchers having reported (and some position guys, unofficially), we've got the 80+ unsigned guys maybe going the 'unsigned guy spring camp coached by Bo Porter? I wonder how many dudes are gonna show up? I read Duda was hanging around Mets camp (but not working out with the Mets). Like, are we gonna see JD Martinez, Hosmer, and Arrieta and all the other big name dudes working out together? Maybe in 2018, waiting until spring starts to sign your guy might be the market inefficiency and a way to save buxxx, but if you miss this late in the game, you might be screwed. This is getting more interesting by the day.

Edgy MD Feb 13 2018 05:14 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Unsigned Player Camp is something I conceptualized years ago, but let DIE like all my other fabulous wealth-enhancing careers. [list=1][*]Get a lease on the cheap for some classic-but-abandoned facility (Dodgertown in Vero Beach? Crescent Lake Park in St. Pete?), [/*:m] [*]invite the 100 to 150 most experienced unsigned guys still looking for work, [/*:m] [*]monetize it by charging the players a modest-but-not-insubstantial-fee, possibly to be paid if and when they sign, [/*:m] [*]get some money as well from MLB, [/*:m] [*]staff it with out-of-work coaches and trainers (everybody needs to showcase their work), [/*:m] [*]cultivate a cheesey-but-perverse touristy atmosphere around the facility, with low-end carnival attractions, like haunted houses and costumed characters, that the players find initially charming but ultimately bush league, motivating them to play hard and sign with the first team that comes calling, [/*:m] [*]divide the players into four squads that scrimmage against one another or go out and battle against the MLB teams that aren't signing them, [/*:m] [*]I forget what eight was for, [/*:m] [*]broadcast the games (to who, I dunno, but it's 2018 and somebody is watching everything) with broadcasters and camera crews that are also out of work and looking to showcase their talents, [/*:m] [*]when some of these players go on to have wonderful careers despite that embarrassing no-contract spring way back when, and they are inducted into the Hall of Fame, and their memorabilia prices shoot through the roof, who will have the rarest pieces of all? I will, because I will have hung onto the Vero Beach Mercenaries jersey he wore for four games way back when. $$KA-CHING$$[/*:m][/list:o]

Nymr83 Feb 13 2018 08:24 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

#8 - FREE ADMISSION You'll make your money on concessions, but fill those stands any way you can and make it look like the fans care. Fans of 29* teams converge, pleading the unsigned to join their favorite squad. *Marlins fans wont be there, despite the shortest drive they have already become too jaded to think thwir horrible new owner will sign anyone.

Vic Sage Feb 13 2018 08:41 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

i love this idea... particularly the carny atmosphere.

Edgy MD Feb 13 2018 09:37 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Nymr83 wrote: #8 - FREE ADMISSION You'll make your money on concessions, but fill those stands any way you can and make it look like the fans care. Fans of 29* teams converge, pleading the unsigned to join their favorite squad. *Marlins fans wont be there, despite the shortest drive they have already become too jaded to think thwir horrible new owner will sign anyone. Welcome to my management team. Good thinking. 11: If you cap your invite list at (say) 150, with each camper that gets signed, you invite a new one to take his place. So you retain your 150-man camp roster (and four squadrons) throughout the spring, and can even keep workouts going two months into the season, as saps try and get minor league deals, waiting for that one injury that leads to a phone call. 12: Also, every time a camper gets signed, a bell or a trumpet fanfare resounds around the facility, keeping guys locked in to the goal at a pavlovian level.

Zvon Feb 13 2018 11:21 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: [*]cultivate a cheesey-but-perverse touristy atmosphere around the facility, with low-end carnival attractions, like haunted houses and costumed characters, that the players find initially charming but ultimately bush league, motivating them to play hard and sign with the first team that comes calling, Vic Sage wrote: i love this idea... particularly the carny atmosphere. Me too. I'd like to be in charge of this aspect. I'll work for free if there's a little shed down there I can crash in.

Frayed Knot Feb 16 2018 08:15 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Manfred doesn't name any names, but ya think he might have had some specific person in mind when he said this at a presser yesterday concerning teh remaining still-unsigned FAs?: “Drawing lines in the sand based on a perception that your market value is something different than what the market is telling you your value is, that doesn’t make a lot of sense, ... It is a fact that markets dictate value. Values are not dictated by big, thick, three-ring binders and rhetoric about who’s better than whom. They’re dictated by markets. That’s the system we negotiated.”

Vic Sage Feb 16 2018 09:00 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Manfred doesn't name any names, but ya think he might have had some specific person in mind when he said this at a presser yesterday concerning teh remaining still-unsigned FAs?: “Drawing lines in the sand based on a perception that your market value is something different than what the market is telling you your value is, that doesn’t make a lot of sense, ... It is a fact that markets dictate value. Values are not dictated by big, thick, three-ring binders and rhetoric about who’s better than whom. They’re dictated by markets. That’s the system we negotiated.” markets don't dictate value. Even in a market economy, they dictate price. Price is an objective standard, but "value" is a subjective determination. One player might actually be more valuable than another, in terms of winning for example, to one team but not as much to another, and they won't get as great a price because they have value to fewer buyers. e.g., see "Moneyball", and other examples of market inefficiencies. A market may determine that one movie makes a billion dollars and another movie, a better movie of greater value, ends up losing money. Value doesn't necessarily = price, particularly if parties are not equally situated when negotiating price.

Lefty Specialist Feb 18 2018 01:00 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Hosmer to the Padres for 8(!) years, with an opt-out after 5. They already had Wil Myers playing first. Seems like a dumb move. Always thought he'd wind up returning to KC....

Frayed Knot Feb 18 2018 01:22 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Well, rumor had it he was holding out for an eight year deal and it looks like he found someone willing to go that route. He's younger than either Pujols & Cano were (28 vs 32 & 31) when they each got [u:133l07t6]ten year deals[/u:133l07t6] so this one isn't quite as insane as those. Of course he's also not the hitter either of them were. Pujols, 3-season OPS+ leading up to his FA deal: 189, 173, 148 -- very nice numbers even though headed in the wrong direction before the deal ever started Cano: 133, 148, 147 -- plus he's a middle infielder ... even if only a middling one Hosmer: 122, 102, 132 -- nice glove (4 GG) but essentially limited to 1B/DH (5 career games/3 starts in the OF)

Centerfield Feb 18 2018 02:07 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Yeah. This one is a head scratcher. A ton of money to give to a guy, though great last year, has been inconsistent. But more so, Eric Hosmer doesn’t turn the Padres into contenders (or so I read, don’t really know them well). In fact, I hear they are years away. So you wonder how this makes sense. If he puts you over the top for the next three years, then sure. Big market clubs can afford this. But to take you from 70 to 75 wins? The timing is weird. By the time SD is done rebuilding you’d think this contract would already be an albatross.

41Forever Feb 18 2018 05:54 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

[url]http://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/mlb/tigers/2018/02/17/castellanos-players-owners-relationship-turning-uncomfortable/110529882/ Interesting comments from one of the Tigers today. Lakeland, Fla. — Nick Castellanos is normally a fun-loving guy. It takes a fair bit of antagonizing to set him off. But his blood got up pretty good as he watched his friend, former teammate and unsigned free agent J.D. Martinez get dragged through the mud on a recent talk program on MLB Network. “They were chastising J.D. and making him look like a criminal (for not accepting a contract offer from the Red Sox),” Castellanos said. “After talking to J.D., the highest offer he got was five years and $100 million.” Castellanos isn’t saying $20 million a year is chump change. And all things being equal, Martinez himself would probably jump at the chance to secure that kind of financial security for his family. But there is a much bigger issue at stake. “This is my opinion, OK?” he said. “I didn’t go to college and I am not saying my opinion is fact and I am not saying that anybody who believes something different is wrong. But if I am thinking like an owner, this is the year everybody stands together to try and lower the market. And “J.D. has a responsibility to hold his ground, so guys coming behind him can get better contracts, as well,” Castellanos said. “It would be very easy to for J.D. to say, ‘I’ll take $100 million and I will never have to work again ever.’ But it’s not about that. It’s about setting the game up for the people coming behind you.” He seems to imply that other players are pressuring guys not to take deals, thinking they would hurt the next round of free agents.

Edgy MD Feb 18 2018 06:42 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

That's a good Mike Baxter post. I wonder, in addition to Martinez potentially holding the line to potentially boost next year's Trout and Harper deals, how many Colby Rasmi are under pressure to hold the line so as not to undercut J.D. Martinez.

MFS62 Feb 18 2018 07:44 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

41Forever wrote: He seems to imply that other players are pressuring guys not to take deals, thinking they would hurt the next round of free agents. And that would be as much of a "conspiracy to set prices" as the players claim the owners are doing. They are working outside of the CBA that was singed by both sides, and isn't that a violation of some labor laws? Later

Edgy MD Feb 18 2018 08:32 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

No, acting in concert on the labor side is quite legal.

Frayed Knot Feb 18 2018 08:56 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

41Forever wrote: [Castellanos] seems to imply that other players are pressuring guys not to take deals, thinking they would hurt the next round of free agents. Nothing new there. Tony Gwynn used to get heat from the union for his rather open declarations that he wanted to stay in his home town of SD rather than challenge and possibly raise the market by auctioning himself elsewhere. According to Bobby V (to some at this site personally) Mo Vaughn had to tell the union to 'get out of my business' when he adjusted his contract to facilitate his trade to the Mets. And there are other examples. Some guys have followed the advice of their agents (who are under the same sort of pressure) and wound up with a lesser deal than one they earlier rejected. And while there's nothing specifically wrong with the union wanting to see the pay of their members trending ever upward, not every player or every year is going to do that and you'd hate to think that Martinez is risking his current (and possibly last) contract because union officials and/or agents are urging him to play chicken with maybe the only team offering him that current deal. He's free to take that strategy as far as he wants of course, but that doesn't mean he'll necessarily get the result he (or the others) want.

Nymr83 Feb 19 2018 03:00 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: No, acting in concert on the labor side is quite legal. It may be legal in an unregulated workplace, but the Collective Bargaining Agreement prohibits it so the owners could have a cause of action - good luck proving anything. edit - I didnt see the post you were responding to until now. it is not a violation of laws but a contractual violation.

Nymr83 Feb 19 2018 12:45 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Hosmer deal proves that not only aren't the owner colluding, but there are still dumb teams out there willing to give bad 8 year deals to mediocre players at the least premium position coming off a career year!

Ashie62 Feb 19 2018 11:03 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

J.D. Martinez to Red Sox 5yrs/110 million. 50 million in first two years with two opt-outs Next!

Nymr83 Feb 19 2018 11:36 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

That is an AMAZING deal for the playet there. Because its a huge number for 2 years and basically the team insuring him against injury/suck after that. He hits the market again if he hits

Mex17 Feb 19 2018 11:45 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Now with Darvish, Hosmer, and Martinez signed, is there any reason for Moustakas/Morrison/Arrieta/Lynn/Cobb to keep holding out, let alone any of the players who are below even them?

Nymr83 Feb 20 2018 12:13 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

is there a reason? i don't know! each player should or shouldn't "hold out" based on their own best interest and not some idea of whats best for other players or "the market" - hopefully they have good agents advising them as such. hopefully they don't get the bad advice Stephen Drew got after (what turned out to be) his career year. it may be time for some guys to sign and not the optimal time for others. and money isn't the only factor, maybe some guys just want to know where they are moving their family to already and that certainty is worth losing a few bucks?

Nymr83 Feb 27 2018 05:32 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Instead of making some crazy collusion claim that they cant prove, MLBPA decided to test the waters by suing the Marlins, A's, Pirates, & Rays accusig them of not meetig their obligation to spend revenue sharing money on improving the team. [url]http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/22595160/mlbpa-files-revenue-sharing-grievance-miami-marlins-oakland-pittsburgh-pirates-tampa-bay-rays Since money is fungible, and i presume each team spends at least its revenue sharing money, i dont see how they prove anything. there is nothing in the CBA (but there should be) saying the teams need to spend OTHER money! But Jeter is getting sued. awesome!

smg58 Feb 27 2018 06:32 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

I would guess that the question to ask is, has the revenue sharing money resulted in a corresponding increase in the team's payroll? And if not, is there a justifiable reason for it? But if there are any sort of clearly defined, objective criteria for evaluating this, I'm not aware of them.

Edgy MD Feb 27 2018 06:41 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

This is the silliness born of an artificial economy.

Frayed Knot Mar 05 2018 11:28 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Ichiro poised to sign with ... the Mariners.

MFS62 Mar 05 2018 11:48 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Frayed Knot wrote: Ichiro poised to sign with ... the Mariners. Birds chirping... OK, I'll go for it. Fuck Ichiro! Later

Edgy MD Mar 06 2018 12:15 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Go, Ichiro!

41Forever Mar 06 2018 02:23 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: Go, Ichiro! Yeah, I'm right there with you. This is a nice way to cap off a career. I don't know if he'll make it through the season, but going out as a Mariner seems right.

Nymr83 Mar 06 2018 02:56 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

MFS62 wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Ichiro poised to sign with ... the Mariners. Birds chirping... OK, I'll go for it. Fuck Ichiro! Later I know some Yankee fans who will say that for you in Japanese!

MFS62 Mar 07 2018 07:37 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

From Rotoworld: Mike Moustakas' agent Scott Boras suggested to Sam Mellinger of the Kansas City Star that his client might not sign until after the 2018 MLB June Amateur Draft. That would no longer tie Moustakas to draft pick compensation and could finally spring open a fruitful market for the 29-year-old third baseman, especially if he is willing to accept offers that would only carry through to the end of the 2018 season. He can not have that draft pick compensation tied to him next winter, per the CBA rules. "Watch what happens," Boras said. "This player has no picks attached to him. It goes away, because they can only put it on him once. So now it's a totally different world for Moose." Boras and Moustakas were believed to be seeking upwards of five years and $75 million when this offseason began. Boras, playing the angles again. The player will probably get as much for that first half a season as he would for a full first season if a team really wants to sign him. And teams will have a better handle on their needs mid-season. I wonder if other still unsigned free agents might have to wait that long? Later

Nymr83 Mar 07 2018 09:19 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

i could work out well for him or it could blow up in his face, certainly the riskier road.

smg58 Mar 07 2018 09:22 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

After Stephen Drew, I'm amazed that Boras still could (or would) talk anybody into going that route.

A Boy Named Seo Mar 07 2018 09:43 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

There's little incentive for a team to offer a 1-year/larger dollar contract to any of these dudes either, as most of the big name dudes left are tied to the compensatory pick. If I'm still a team with holes to fill, I just leave that low-ball offer sitting there (like Minny's 2-year/$20M offer for Lynn). I'm sure none of these dudes in their prime years (Moustakas, Lynn, Cobb) really want to sit out.

Frayed Knot Mar 07 2018 10:04 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

I don't think this is a strategy for Boras as much as it is a justification for pointing out that the compensation conditions do in fact depress the market value for those to whom it's attached. If negotiations are going to drag into the season he might as well set up his his anti-compensation pick arguments in advance just in case it gets to that point.

A Boy Named Seo Mar 07 2018 10:13 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Frayed Knot wrote: I don't think this is a strategy for Boras as much as it is a justification for pointing out that the compensation conditions do in fact depress the market value for those to whom it's attached. If negotiations are going to drag into the season he might as well set up his his anti-compensation pick arguments in advance just in case it gets to that point. Yeah, I don't think he expected this at all. MLB's de facto salary cap dictates that teams can't operate the old skool way anymore.

MFS62 Mar 10 2018 09:53 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

MLB network os reporting Lance Lynn to the Twins - 1 year, $12 million. Later

Nymr83 Mar 10 2018 11:37 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

MFS62 wrote: MLB network os reporting Lance Lynn to the Twins - 1 year, $12 million. Later crap, i had him on my NL-only team, there goes another keeper! Mets should have made that offer

bmfc1 Mar 11 2018 08:42 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

[tweet:3p6m9fo9]https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/972934295521255427[/tweet:3p6m9fo9]

smg58 Mar 11 2018 09:52 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Nymr83 wrote: MFS62 wrote: MLB network os reporting Lance Lynn to the Twins - 1 year, $12 million. Later crap, i had him on my NL-only team, there goes another keeper! Mets should have made that offer I agree. The Phillies get Arrieta for 3 and 75.

Vic Sage Mar 11 2018 09:55 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

good for the Phillies. That's a serious overpay, and it'll bite them. Arrieta is in decline; i'd take Lynn at 1/2 that price for 1 year.

Frayed Knot Mar 11 2018 10:01 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Vic Sage wrote: good for the Phillies. That's a serious overpay, and it'll bite them. Arrieta is in decline; i'd take Lynn at 1/2 that price for 1 year. Yeah, I was just about to post that how you feel about that deal depends on how much you think his trends are likely to continue. H/9: 5.9, 6.3, 8.0 [2015-2017] HR/9: 0.4, 0.7, 1.2 ERA: 1.77, 3.10, 3.53 K/BB: 4.92, 2.50, 2.96 IP: 229, 197, 168 ... and then there are the reports of reduced velocity, etc. That he only turned 32 earlier this week means that it's not out of the question that he turns things around, but the 2014-2016 portion of his career [9th, 1st, and 9th in CY voting] seems more like the outlier when compared to the 2010-2013 and then 2017 seasons.

Centerfield Mar 11 2018 11:13 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

That’s a lot more than I thought he’d get. Philly likely overpaid, but our path to any Wild Card just got harder.

Ceetar Mar 12 2018 12:12 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Centerfield wrote: That’s a lot more than I thought he’d get. Philly likely overpaid, but our path to any Wild Card just got harder. well, it's not September so we're still talking division anyway. So this was probably neutral in that regard.

Nymr83 Mar 12 2018 12:41 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

I would much rather be the team getting the steal of a Lynn deal, but i would have signed up for Arrieta too. The money is Wilpons not mine so wtf do i care if he gets 20 or 25 mil? I care mostly about length of deals - if this guy doesn't live up to the hype, how long are we stuck with him? 3 years at age 32 doesn't seem too long here.

Edgy MD Mar 12 2018 01:39 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Well, the idea is that $75 mill invested poorly in one place means $75 mill not invested wisely in another place.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 12 2018 02:00 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: Well, the idea is that $75 mill invested poorly in one place means $75 mill not invested wisely in another place. Spoken as if the Mets are on a Cincinnati budget. Which they are.

Edgy MD Mar 12 2018 02:02 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

No, it wasn't spoken that way at all.

41Forever Mar 12 2018 02:04 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

He doesn't strike me as a $25 million pitcher.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 12 2018 02:13 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer. Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Mar 12 2018 02:25 AM

Edgy MD wrote: No, it wasn't spoken that way at all. It sure comes off that way. A major market team that spends like a major market team could absorb lotsa dead money. But not Cincinnati. I have no problem with the Mets passing on Arrieta if the Mets truly think he won't be as good as he needs to be to make the signing worthwhile. But I have an enormous problem with the Mets wanting Arrrieta but not being able to afford him. Of course, with the Mets, we'll never truly know what's what because everybody there is totally full of shit what with them having to cover up the magnitude of their financial woes every time tbey open their mouths.

Nymr83 Mar 12 2018 02:14 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: Well, the idea is that $75 mill invested poorly in one place means $75 mill not invested wisely in another place. Sure, but every player is a risk and i'm saying i'd rather risk money as compared to risking years of commitment.

Zvon Mar 12 2018 02:17 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

To the Phillies!?!?!?! GAH!

Ashie62 Mar 12 2018 03:09 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Geez, the Phillies are going to scare me this season? GAK

smg58 Mar 13 2018 12:43 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

So who's left? I wouldn't mind Greg Holland for the kind of price he's likely to get at this point.

Edgy MD Mar 13 2018 01:47 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Yeah, somebody's got to get him, Brian Dozier, and Derek Holland on the same team sooner or later.

Vic Sage Mar 13 2018 05:07 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Edgy MD wrote: Yeah, somebody's got to get him, Brian Dozier, and Derek Holland on the same team sooner or later. But then they'd have nowhere to run!

41Forever Mar 13 2018 05:09 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Vic Sage wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Yeah, somebody's got to get him, Brian Dozier, and Derek Holland on the same team sooner or later. But then they'd have nowhere to run! Bam! Nice one. But they'd have a lot of hits!

MFS62 Mar 21 2018 01:01 AM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Alex Cobb to the O's - 4 year deal. http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/orio ... story.html Later

Mex17 Mar 21 2018 07:01 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

The only guys that I can think of who still needs a job, is coming a season where they legitimately provided value, and are not totally over the hill (at least not from the standpoint of a one year deal), are Melky Cabrera, Brandon Phillips, and Greg Holland. Is there anyone else other than them?

seawolf17 Mar 21 2018 07:12 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

If you move one of the outfielders to center, you could still make a team out of the guys on ESPN's list: Carlos Ruiz C Geovany Soto C Mark Reynolds 1B Michael Morse 1B Brandon Phillips 2B Stephen Drew SS Mike Aviles SS J.J. Hardy SS Yunel Escobar 3B Franklin Gutierrez LF Jayson Werth LF Melky Cabrera RF Jose Bautista RF Seth Smith RF Andre Ethier RF John Jaso RF Matt Holliday DH R.A. Dickey SP Scott Feldman SP Ubaldo Jimenez SP John Lackey SP Matt Garza SP Joe Blanton RP Jason Grilli RP Greg Holland RP Zach Putnam RP Trevor Rosenthal RP Drew Storen RP Huston Street RP

41Forever Mar 21 2018 09:03 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Some bigger names on there than I expected.

Frayed Knot Mar 21 2018 09:31 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

A few of those guys barely played in 2017 and/or were approaching the end of the line age/health-wise, but the biggest chunk of them were at least more or less full-timers last year Mark Reynolds 1B = 520 AB Brandon Phillips 2B - 572 J.J. Hardy SS - 254 Yunel Escobar 3B - 350 Jayson Werth LF - 289 Melky Cabrera RF - 238 Jose Bautista RF - 587 Seth Smith RF - 330 John Jaso RF - 256 Matt Holliday DH - 373 R.A. Dickey SP = 190 IP Scott Feldman SP - 111 Ubaldo Jimenez SP = 142 John Lackey SP = 170 Matt Garza SP = 114 Joe Blanton RP = 51 Appearances Greg Holland RP = 61 Trevor Rosenthal RP = 50 Drew Storen RP = 58

Mex17 Mar 21 2018 11:08 PM Re: This cannot go on much longer.

Frayed Knot wrote: J.J. Hardy SS - .217/.255/.323/.578 slash line going into age 35 season Jayson Werth LF - .226/.322/.393/.715 going into age 39 Jose Bautista RF - .203/.308/.366/.674 going into age 37 John Jaso RF - .211/.328/.402/.730 going into age 34 Matt Holliday DH - .231/.316/.432/.748 going into age 38 R.A. Dickey SP - Still serviceable but going into age 43. . .might just want to stay at home at this point. Scott Feldman SP - 4.77 ERA/1.35 WHIP going into age 35 Ubaldo Jimenez SP - 6.81 ERA/1.59 WHIP going into age 34 John Lackey SP - Going into age 39. Still serviceable but same classification as Dickey. Matt Garza SP - 4.94 ERA/1.44 WHIP going into age 34 Joe Blanton RP - 5.68 ERA/1.48 WHIP going into age 37 I would say that all of the above are sufficiently on the trash heap (or gracefully retired) and you ought not to realistically expect them to be signed. In addition to Holland, Phillips, and Cabrera (who I mentioned earlier) I would think that Reynolds, Escobar, Seth Smith, and Rosenthal should still have major league jobs. I'm on the fence with regard to Storen.