Master Index of Archived Threads


Bully for Beltran (split from Appreciation for Santana)

Centerfield Jan 25 2018 03:26 PM

Zvon wrote: Nymr83 wrote: Even in a tight pennant race there will be a blowout game one way or the other he can come into! That's true. I'll root for whatever he wants to do with the rest of his life, until the end of time itself. Sign me up for this too. Imagine the reception he'd get from the fans the minute he comes into the game. I've always thought it was interesting how different Santana and Beltran are perceived by Mets fans. Both were superstars hampered by injury. Both gave us some of the best performances we have seen. But Santana is royalty, largely because of one game. Beltran draws mixed reactions, with many viewing him in a negative light, because of one at bat.

Frayed Knot Jan 25 2018 07:59 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

I have better memories of Beltran than of Santana

Rockin' Doc Jan 26 2018 12:21 AM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

I am thankful for what both Santana and Beltran did for the Mets during their respective tenures. I was big fan of Beltran, in particular..

Zvon Jan 26 2018 01:58 AM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

Centerfield wrote: Zvon wrote: Nymr83 wrote: Even in a tight pennant race there will be a blowout game one way or the other he can come into! That's true. I'll root for whatever he wants to do with the rest of his life, until the end of time itself. Sign me up for this too. Imagine the reception he'd get from the fans the minute he comes into the game. I've always thought it was interesting how different Santana and Beltran are perceived by Mets fans. Both were superstars hampered by injury. Both gave us some of the best performances we have seen. But Santana is royalty, largely because of one game. Beltran draws mixed reactions, with many viewing him in a negative light, because of one at bat. Man, that one at bat was a powerfully traumatic moment, though. Like when Rogers walked right off the mound after that walk (99?). That's all I'll remember about him. I do recall Beltran's goodness tho. I really wanted the Mets to go get him and they did. He did not disappoint me at all in the long run. But then there's that one at bat.... Craw/< *cough!

smg58 Jan 26 2018 12:06 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

It's human nature. Some games are more important than others, some plays are more important than others. Bill Buckner had an extremely enviable career. Ron Swoboda was considered a defensive liability. Al Weis didn't hit home runs. Every time I hear somebody mention how great Beltran was in the postseason -- and to be fair, he WAS -- it's like a knife twisting in my heart. You know what pitch is coming, get ready to swing at it!

Centerfield Jan 26 2018 02:36 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

smg58 wrote: It's human nature. Some games are more important than others, some plays are more important than others. Bill Buckner had an extremely enviable career. Ron Swoboda was considered a defensive liability. Al Weis didn't hit home runs. Every time I hear somebody mention how great Beltran was in the postseason -- and to be fair, he WAS -- it's like a knife twisting in my heart. You know what pitch is coming, get ready to swing at it! Fully understand that there are big moments etc. But I have never seen a batter receive so much blame for one at-bat. Buckner made an error. Closers give up game-winning HR's. Batters who make outs, just make outs. Hitting is hard. Especially against closers. Mike Piazza made the last out of the 2000 World Series. People hardly remember that. When he was inducted into the Hall of Fame, no Met fan said, "Yeah, but that last out against Mariano..." So much is made of the manner of out. A called strike three. Like this is indicative of a character flaw or that it demonstrates a lack of desire. I will never understand this. Being selective is a huge part of what made him great. That year he had a .388 OBP against a .275 BA. He didn't chase bad pitches. Over the long run I'd much rather a selective hitter than someone who chases. What's the downside to that? If someone drops a filthy buckle the knees curveball, Beltran was vulnerable to that. He was beat. It happens. I don't believe for a second that his take is indicative of a lack of effort. "At least swing." I hear that all the time. Anyone going up against Wainright with the philosophy that he has to swing is toast. He'd take advantage of that. And for Beltran, who had put together a legendary year and was crushing it in October, why would you change anything with the season on the line. His line in that series? 1.054 OPS, with 3 HR's. Anytime anyone mentions Carlos Beltran in 2006, this is what I think of. And by the way, if everyone knew what Wainright was bringing, it didn't help them much. That October Wainright was 1-0, with a 0.00 ERA in 9.2 innings pitched. 15 strikeouts in those outings. So I'm guessing that the "They should have put me in, I'd at least swing" critics wouldn't have fared much better.

metsmarathon Jan 26 2018 03:55 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

also worth considering.... i've heard cliff floyd talk about that at bat a few times on the sirius mlb channel. he tells that the mets batters had NO IDEA wainwright had that nasty curve. which seems somewhat inconceivable... but to listen to him tell it, it sounds credible.

Ceetar Jan 26 2018 04:21 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

he was a rookie reliever. he'd thrown ~300 curveballs on the season/career. I"m sure they scouted him some but to that extent? who knows..

Centerfield Jan 26 2018 05:08 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

Also important to note, a Carlos Beltran double, followed by a Wright RBI single had accounted for the only Mets run of the game. Adding on, the Mets had only 4 hits that game. Beltran's was the only extra-base hit. He also walked, making him and Delgado the only Mets to reach twice. Even in that game, you can hardly call him a goat. For the series only Delgado was more productive. LoDuca was terrible. Wright had an OPS of .596. Endy, great catch aside, was stupid bad. (.444 OPS). If anyone should have been a goat, it would be Valentin. .667 OPS including whiffing during our best scoring opportunity.

Frayed Knot Jan 26 2018 07:55 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

Centerfield wrote: ... I have never seen a batter receive so much blame for one at-bat. A lot of that has to do with Beltran not being all that popular with a certain segment of NYM fans prior to that. iow, those blaming Beltran for that AB probably weren't pre-disposed to give him a break anyway.

Centerfield Jan 26 2018 08:39 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

That's probably true. I don't understand that segment of fans. We finally got a star player to sign with us and for some reason some fans didn't take to him. Seriously. Sometimes I wonder if some Met fans just like being miserable. Understood that he got off to a slow start, but the minute he breaks his face and comes back to the lineup, I think you have to throw any disappointment out the window. I imagine anyone's numbers would dip if he suffers a broken face and a concussion. You'd think, by the treatment he got, that he was the one that never made it back that season. And once he lit the world on fire in 2006, all sins, real or perceived, should have been forgiven. Makes me so mad. The treatment of Beltran is an embarrassment for Mets fans.

Edgy MD Jan 26 2018 09:02 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

A whole lot of racism was tied up in that. Zero percent will admit it, but hiring an Afro-Dominican-ish GM who made his first big splash by going out and signing an Afro-Rican-ish star, who then himself had the audacity to take the first question at his introductory press conference in Spanish brought to the surface a whole lot of Trumptastic Los Mets bullshit in the fanbase. Self-styled forgotten white men were acting all durr .... my team is being taken from me! Blacks and Latinos have always been welcome in Metland, but suddenly it was becoming apparent in an ugly way that their cultural ascendency was not particularly welcome at all. Nor was them merely expressing themselves as the people they were. The stupid stupidness of the Walter Reed debacle only confirmed the distrust such fans had held him in since day one. At another site, I was told that he "never went full extension" in pursuit of a ball (unlike true Americans like Lenny Dykstra, apparently, was the undercurrent). I posted 10 shots of him going full extension, including full extension into Mike Cameron's face, as well as glorious catches going over the wall and climbing Tal's hill, and the guy turned around and attacked my fucking patriotism.

41Forever Jan 26 2018 09:07 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

I don't know if I agree with that, Edgy. I just think people had unrealistic expectations. They probably thought they were getting the otherworldly guy they saw in the playoffs and were let down that they got a guy who was merely excellent. Met fans embraced Gooden and Strawberry and other African American players.

Ceetar Jan 26 2018 09:08 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

I wouldn't say zero percent will admit it. It was a meme for a while. Wagner made an offhand comment and it caught fire after that.

Centerfield Jan 26 2018 09:16 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

I don't know if I agree with that, Edgy. I just think people had unrealistic expectations. They probably thought they were getting the otherworldly guy they saw in the playoffs and were let down that they got a guy who was merely excellent. Met fans embraced Gooden and Strawberry and other African American players. BREAKING NEWS: WHITE MALE REPUBLICAN SKEPTICAL OF RACISM Details at 11

Frayed Knot Jan 26 2018 09:20 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

- Beltran was imported, rather than home-grown like Goodenberry - The hiring of Omar combined with his early acquisitions of Beltran, Delgado, et al was seen by some as a 'No Gringos Need Apply' move ... They're taking our jobs!!!!! - There was a sense that he was too cool for school, aka: not fiery enough [see Edgy's post] - he got off to a bad start (1st season was some 150 points of OPS under his previous seasons) - he got injured a lot ... don't dismiss how much fans hold it against injured players - Mets didn't win it all with him - the strikeout

Centerfield Jan 26 2018 09:24 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

Frayed Knot wrote: - - There was a sense that he was too cool for school, aka: not fiery enough [see Edgy's post] I do believe there is some truth to this. Basically he made everything look so easy some didn't really appreciate how tough these plays were. I've said it before, Torii Hunter got more credit for missing the ball and falling into the Boston bullpen than Beltran did for catching it, bouncing off, and then throwing it back in. He did it with such grace it was impossible to know that he hurt his ribs on that play.

Edgy MD Jan 26 2018 09:59 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

41Forever wrote: I don't know if I agree with that, Edgy. I just think people had unrealistic expectations. They probably thought they were getting the otherworldly guy they saw in the playoffs and were let down that they got a guy who was merely excellent. Met fans embraced Gooden and Strawberry and other African American players. Well, as I wrote, "Blacks and Latinos have always been welcome in Metland, but ... ." Big but, but if you haven't heard thinly veiled racist attacks on Strawberry and Gooden, you've led a happier life than I have. (First guy I met when I got to college called Mookie Wilson "Spooky.") But don't ask 2017 me what went down in 2005, ask 2005 Omar Minaya. Or ask T.C.!

smg58 Jan 26 2018 11:09 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

I think the reaction to the strikeout is more of a gut emotional reaction than anything else; it was a heartbreaking moment that I still cringe to think about. Is it fair? Fuck no. Carlos Beltran is human, and so am I. That being said, Beltran was a superb player before, during, and after his tenure with the Mets. I was happy to get him, I'm still happy we got him, and I wished him well when he left.

Zvon Jan 27 2018 07:35 AM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

This is boo-koo kaboomin'! ^Caption for that one was unnecessarily cruel. It was an awesome effort. ^It's a fact. A matter of record. He was sitting on one pitch. He didn't have the gumption to just get a piece of it and foul it off, like Mex would have. But I have come to the conclusion that I personally will no longer focus on that moment. No longer dwell on that very traumatic ending. I do this in appreciation of the therapy I have received in this thread. The turning point in that series should rightfully trump Beltran's frozen moment every time: OR: lol @previous post^. Yea, back to Santana

Benjamin Grimm Jan 27 2018 12:39 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

He didn't have the gumption to just get a piece of it and foul it off, like Mex would have. You're saying that Carlos Beltran was afraid to hit a foul ball?

Zvon Jan 27 2018 06:12 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

Benjamin Grimm wrote: He didn't have the gumption to just get a piece of it and foul it off, like Mex would have. You're saying that Carlos Beltran was afraid to hit a foul ball? It's very possible that I am. What # definition of gumption are you looking at? ;)

Zvon Jan 28 2018 03:12 AM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

dgwphotography Jan 28 2018 07:59 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

Centerfield wrote: - - There was a sense that he was too cool for school, aka: not fiery enough [see Edgy's post] I do believe there is some truth to this. Basically he made everything look so easy some didn't really appreciate how tough these plays were. I've said it before, Torii Hunter got more credit for missing the ball and falling into the Boston bullpen than Beltran did for catching it, bouncing off, and then throwing it back in. He did it with such grace it was impossible to know that he hurt his ribs on that play. This. He made everything look so effortless. He easily is the best CF the Mets have had.

Centerfield Jan 29 2018 03:51 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

I just want to point out that even McReynolds got his own thread and I'm still buried in Johan's.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Jan 30 2018 02:47 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

I'd just like to point out that for all this Beltranning in Johan' s thread... there hasn't been one mention that his was the one hit in Johan's no-hitter.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 30 2018 02:48 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

And that disproves Zvon's claim that Beltran is afraid to hit a foul ball.

SteveJRogers Jan 30 2018 03:17 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

Just hitting me how anti-the trade Val was back in the day. At least in thinking that the haul of Carlos Gomez, Philip Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra was too rich to give up. And now he’s the Santana Appreciation thread starter ;)

Benjamin Grimm Jan 30 2018 03:26 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

I remember that too. He hated the deal because it included Kevin Mulvey.

seawolf17 Jan 30 2018 03:28 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

In Val's defense, he had a *GREAT* nickname ready for Mulvey when he got promoted.

Edgy MD Jan 30 2018 03:41 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

One of those (Guerra?) was a favorite of our dgw too, I think.

dgwphotography Jan 30 2018 05:33 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

Edgy MD wrote: One of those (Guerra?) was a favorite of our dgw too, I think. I don’t really remember Guerra. I remember being high on Gomez, but it was a trade that had to be made

Edgy MD Jan 30 2018 05:47 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

Amazin' that Guerra didn't even debut until three seasons after Johan had thrown his last big league pitch. He has a modest little career going for himself now with the Angels, and is still only 28 going on 29.

Frayed Knot Jan 30 2018 07:50 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

Guerra was the youngest guy with the potentially high ceiling but was so far off that I had no problem including him. Mulvey was a 2nd round pick, 62nd overall (2006) but was never on the fast track to anywhere. Gomez wound up better than I thought he was going to be, so I didn't have a problem with his inclusion either. And if Humber had lived up to his 3rd overall pick status he wouldn't have been included ... but then again if he had lived up to the status you likely wouldn't have needed to deal for Johan.

Edgy MD Feb 02 2018 03:18 AM Re: Bully for Beltran (split from Appreciation for Santana)

MetsJetsFTW wrote: I absolutely HATE Carlos Beltran. He is my least favorite player on any team in all of sports. .... If there were some way to kill Carlos Beltran and get away with it or have him disappear permanently, I would do it. http://www.fieldchatter.com/forum/Threa ... ?pid=19391

Centerfield Feb 02 2018 03:18 PM Re: Bully for Beltran (split from Appreciation for Santana)

How did you find that? Do you post on other forums?

MFS62 Feb 02 2018 03:21 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

Benjamin Grimm wrote: And that disproves Zvon's claim that Beltran is afraid to hit a foul ball. OOOOOOOOOH! Later

Benjamin Grimm Feb 02 2018 03:22 PM Re: Bully for Beltran (split from Appreciation for Santana)

Centerfield wrote: How did you find that? Do you post on other forums? WHAT??? Is Edgy cheating on us? And... I'm thinking we probably shouldn't invite MetsJetsFTW to join us here.

Edgy MD Feb 02 2018 04:07 PM Re: Bully for Beltran (split from Appreciation for Santana)

I found it with The Google.

Vic Sage Feb 02 2018 06:11 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

I don't know if I agree with that, Edgy. I just think people had unrealistic expectations. They probably thought they were getting the otherworldly guy they saw in the playoffs and were let down that they got a guy who was merely excellent. Met fans embraced Gooden and Strawberry and other African American players. BREAKING NEWS: WHITE MALE REPUBLICAN SKEPTICAL OF RACISM Details at 11 this. If you didn't see the racism underlying alot of the negative attitude toward Beltran, then you are actively trying NOT to see it. The response to "Los Mets" was a matter of public record and historical fact. But right, what do facts matter? and yes, the called third strike was heartbreaking, but his selectivity was part of what made him a great hitter. He wasn't going to change his approach in that one AB. He is the best CFer, and one of the top 10 players, ever to wear the blue and orange.

Edgy MD Feb 02 2018 06:18 PM Re: Appreciation for Johan Santana

Edgy MD wrote: Or ask T.C.! Anybody follow that link? T.C. is white and says he has no problem with hispanic players. As a matter of fact, he cites Keith Hernandez as being one of his all-time favorites. “But they not only changed the roster when Omar was here, they also forced everything Spanish down our throats at Shea Satdium (sic).” I have no problem with hispanic players because Keith Hernandez is an all-time favorite is about as rich as it gets.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 02 2018 06:31 PM Re: Bully for Beltran (split from Appreciation for Santana)

There was a lot of complaining about how Omar was making the Mets "too Hispanic". I'm sure that there are references to it (if not examples of it) here in our own archives from 2005 and 2006. ON EDIT: Oops, maybe not. Our archives only go back to June 2005, months after Omar signed Beltran and Pedro. I would imagine that the biggest anti-Hispanic backlash would have been during the 2004-05 offseason.

Ceetar Feb 02 2018 07:04 PM Re: Bully for Beltran (split from Appreciation for Santana)

There was a lot of complaining about how Omar was making the Mets "too Hispanic". I'm sure that there are references to it (if not examples of it) here in our own archives from 2005 and 2006. ON EDIT: Oops, maybe not. Our archives only go back to June 2005, months after Omar signed Beltran and Pedro. I would imagine that the biggest anti-Hispanic backlash would have been during the 2004-05 offseason. Try May 16th+ 2008. That's when Billy Wagner made the "Ask those guys questions, they speak English, believe me." comments. Which I don't think were racially tinged on Wagner's side, more that "ask the guys that actually played and aren't always standing here after games. They all can answer your questions too" Many saw that as confirmation of a clubhouse divide when really it was Wagner being tired of answering questions about losses he mostly twiddled his thumbs during.

Nymr83 Feb 02 2018 07:21 PM Re: Bully for Beltran (split from Appreciation for Santana)

the Wagner comment can be taken a lot of different ways, but racism on Wagner's part is probably the least likely intent. #1 - Those asshole players can talk to you too, they choose not to, but why don't you go try talking to them - i dont need to stand here and answer questions for all the assholes who cant stand in front of their lockers after they went 0-4 #2 - You asshole reporters should stop asking me all the questions just because I'm white. go talk to those guys, they speak English too, you know?

Nymr83 Feb 02 2018 07:23 PM Re: Bully for Beltran (split from Appreciation for Santana)

As for the "Los Mets" thing - I didnt think there was a lot of racism going around against the latino stars, Mets fans fell in love with Pedro especially in a very short time period. Omar was the one taking the racist flak.

Ceetar Feb 02 2018 07:41 PM Re: Bully for Beltran (split from Appreciation for Santana)

Of course, Willie floated some of it on his way out too.

Frayed Knot Feb 02 2018 07:43 PM Re: Bully for Beltran (split from Appreciation for Santana)

I remember, in the midst of one of the [u:3sszliut]Los Mets[/u:3sszliut] screeds, finding pictures from a Los Mets promotion back during sometime in the 1970s Kinda shot a hole in those arguments that it was all a creation of Omar Racist Productions Inc.

SteveJRogers Feb 02 2018 08:17 PM Re: Bully for Beltran (split from Appreciation for Santana)

Frayed Knot wrote: I remember, in the midst of one of the Los Mets screeds, finding pictures from a Los Mets promotion back during sometime in the 1970s Kinda shot a hole in those arguments that it was all a creation of Omar Racist Productions Inc. I usually went with a better observation, from the mid-1980s through the early 1990s the Mets produced a Spanish version of the yearbook. Its hard to find bigger examples from a PR perspective when it comes to courting the Latin American audience!

Edgy MD Feb 02 2018 09:04 PM Re: Bully for Beltran (split from Appreciation for Santana)

Yes, and they've had Spanish-language broadcasts since 1962, but a minority marketing sideline was easily ignorable for Johnny Budweiser Whiteguy. When Beltran answered that first question in Spanish, it was a new regime that was IN JOHNNY'S FACE. And Johnny didn't forget.