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I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

A Boy Named Seo Feb 15 2018 04:33 PM

Metsblog sez the Mets are interested in 35-year old lefty Jason Vargas. He won't cost a second-round pick like Lance Lynn or Alex Cobb and new pitching coach Dave Eiland worked with him last year and apparently likes him enough to not pour cold water on whatever level of interest we have. Not a strikeout guy at all (6.71 K/9 last year), he was probably way too good in the first half (2.62 ERA) and way too crappy in the second half (6.38 ERA). Overall he put up a 4.16 ERA, but FIP (4.67), xFIP (4.94) and SIERA (4.86) all indicate he probably should have been a little worse off. He hasn't worked out of the bullpen since 2005, so this guy would be brought in as a 5th/6th starter. Can't say there's a lot of Jason Vargas excitement from where I sit. What about you?

Ceetar Feb 15 2018 04:44 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

No. If I had to pick, Colin McHugh

Edgy MD Feb 15 2018 04:44 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

The split between those two halves is hard to get past, i'n't it? It's interesting that Omar Minaya has returned and the Mets are re-opening files on Omar-era properties such as Matt den Dekker and Jason Vargas.

Nymr83 Feb 15 2018 04:53 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

is this a guy who gets a decent contract? then no. if he gets league minimum and released assuming we exit spring training healthy, sure.

A Boy Named Seo Feb 15 2018 05:33 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Nymr83 wrote: is this a guy who gets a decent contract? then no. if he gets league minimum and released assuming we exit spring training healthy, sure. I would say very unlikely he gets anywhere near minimum.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 15 2018 05:47 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

I guess signing him is better than not signing him because he would add a bit of depth that the Mets might ultimately need, but I'd feel much better if they'd set their sights higher.

Centerfield Feb 15 2018 06:22 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

This whole offseason is about as satisfying as a dry hump.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 15 2018 06:25 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Hopefully the season itself will be more of a wet hump.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 15 2018 08:07 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

I had completely forgotten that Jason Vargas was once a Met. Traded with Adam Bostick by the Florida Marlins to the New York Mets in exchange for Henry Owens and Matt Lindstrom on November 20, 2006. Traded by the New York Mets to the Seattle Mariners with Aaron Heilman, Endy Chavez, Joe Smith, Maikel Cleto, Ezequiel Carrera and Mike Carp in exchange for Sean Green, J. J. Putz and Jeremy Reed on December 11, 2008. He started two games for the Mets in 2007, one in May and one in July. As a Met, he has a 12.19 ERA in 10.1 innings. If he becomes a Met again, that ERA can only come down. I hope!

Valadius Feb 15 2018 08:31 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Why?

Vic Sage Feb 15 2018 09:11 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

i'd rather grab a Dickey.

Edgy MD Feb 15 2018 10:00 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I had completely forgotten that Jason Vargas was once a Met. Traded with Adam Bostick by the Florida Marlins to the New York Mets in exchange for Henry Owens and Matt Lindstrom on November 20, 2006. Traded by the New York Mets to the Seattle Mariners with Aaron Heilman, Endy Chavez, Joe Smith, Maikel Cleto, Ezequiel Carrera and Mike Carp in exchange for Sean Green, J. J. Putz and Jeremy Reed on December 11, 2008. He started two games for the Mets in 2007, one in May and one in July. As a Met, he has a 12.19 ERA in 10.1 innings. If he becomes a Met again, that ERA can only come down. I hope! Sheesh, I thought that second trade to be unforgettable. The most Omariffic of trades.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 15 2018 10:02 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

I do remember that trade with Seattle. I just don't remember Jason Vargas being part of it.

Nymr83 Feb 16 2018 01:18 AM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

I'll say this nice thing about Vargas: the upside is lower, but I think he has a better chance than Matt Harvey, a guy who is currently supposedly in our rotation, to give a team 15-20 starts of 90-100 ERA+ (by which i mean better than replacement level but a little below average).

smg58 Feb 16 2018 01:45 AM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

A lot would depend on how optimistic I am about getting 175+ quality innings from at least four of DeGrom/Syndergaard/Harvey/Matz/Wheeler. He'd be an acceptable #5. He'd also be useful as a fill-in starter/long relief option/second lefty in the pen, but his track record says he'll want (and most likely get) more than that role normally goes for. He's not exciting, especially with better options still available, but he has a high floor compared to some of our staff.

Gwreck Feb 16 2018 02:33 AM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Vargas was the starting pitcher in what turned out to be a big comeback win against the Cubs in May 2007.

Fman99 Feb 16 2018 11:16 AM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

You had me at "wet hump."

dgwphotography Feb 16 2018 03:51 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

According to Heyman, it's done pending a physical. https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/964525477309419521

bmfc1 Feb 16 2018 03:57 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

I hope that Dave Eiland saw enough in Vargas to recommend the signing. You would think that Sandy checked with him first.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 16 2018 04:09 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

ESPN wrote: The New York Mets and starting pitcher Jason Vargas have reached agreement on a two-year, $16 million deal, a source confirmed to ESPN on Friday. The deal, which is pending a physical, includes a club option for 2020, a MLB source told ESPN's Jerry Crasnick. The agreement was first reported by FanRag Sports, and the length of the contract was first reported by MLB.com. I wasn't expecting it to be two years.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 16 2018 04:11 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

I think Vargas is a good get for the Mets. He alone won the JJ Putz trade, not to mention giving away Joe Smith and Endy Chavez and Heilman and Cleto and who knows what else. That was really the very moment the Omar Era jumped the shark.

HahnSolo Feb 16 2018 04:14 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Two years is a surprise.

Vic Sage Feb 16 2018 04:16 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Right now, all of our starters are in ST and preparing to start, with no particular injury limitations. I don't think they signed Vargas to 2yr/$16m deal to be a spot-starter/long man out of the pen, so who does go to the pen? Wheeler? Or is this going to be an open competition to win that 5th starter role out of ST? or 7-9 guys competing for the 3 slots behind Syndy and DeGrom, with the 4th guy going into the pen?

Benjamin Grimm Feb 16 2018 04:20 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

I think that it's an open competition for the three spots behind deGrom and Syndergaard.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Feb 16 2018 04:22 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

I don't think they signed Vargas to 2yr/$16m deal to be a spot-starter/long man out of the pen I do. I mean, I think we're rapidly evolving toward a post starter/reliever world with most guys anyway. 34 year old journeymen who don't get signed till February don't get to make the rules.

A Boy Named Seo Feb 16 2018 04:23 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

two years is kind of a surprise. Is Wheeler slated for the bully now? 6-man rotation to keep all the hurty guys less hurt?

RealityChuck Feb 16 2018 04:45 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

I will say that with this, it's been a pretty good off-season.

Ceetar Feb 16 2018 05:01 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I don't think they signed Vargas to 2yr/$16m deal to be a spot-starter/long man out of the pen I do. I mean, I think we're rapidly evolving toward a post starter/reliever world with most guys anyway. 34 year old journeymen who don't get signed till February don't get to make the rules. agreed, though they're publicly saying he'll start. Long time to OD. Mickey's stated he's open to a starter in the pen, so there's still some time for that too. I assume Montero and Gsellman are going to be technically in competition but the Mets have them starting in AAA. So Vargas, Harvey, Lugo, Wheeler, Matz for three roster spots? if everyone stays healthy. Vargas cause they just signed him, Harvey on personality, matz for the lefty. Wheeler and Lugo start in AAA?

Nymr83 Feb 16 2018 05:29 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

I think Lugo was the one already slated for AAA of that group. If everyone is healthy, I hope it is Harvey not Wheeler losing the rotation spot out of the gate.

Vic Sage Feb 16 2018 05:30 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Feb 20 2018 08:34 PM

Montero is out of options; he'd have to clear waivers to go down. As we go into ST, i think it's: 1) Syndy 2) deGrom 3) Harvey (if healthy) 4) Matz (if healthy) 5) _____? ...with Wheeler, Vargas, Lugo, Gsellman, Montero, Flexen and Oswalt (in that order) dueling it out for the 5th slot. The runner-up goes in the pen. Everybody else goes down (or, in Montero's case, goes through waivers). I think we'll end up with Vargas & Wheeler, in either order, but i wouldn't be shocked if Lugo and/or Gsellman forced their way into the discussion. Is it possible that Harvey and/or Matz could pitch themselves out of the OD rotation? Yeah, but that will depend on their health and mechanics, not production in ST. I think our new manager and pitching coach were brought in specifically to fix those guys, not to bury them based on ST innings, so there's going to have to be some severe issues for them not to be in the rotation right out of the gate. In other words, its their slots to lose. I don't think its an open competition.

Nymr83 Feb 16 2018 05:32 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Options have a funny way of making roster decisions. Montero likely the long man just to avoid exposing him. Sorry Lugo/Gsellman

Vic Sage Feb 16 2018 05:35 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Nymr83 wrote: Options have a funny way of making roster decisions. Montero likely the long man just to avoid exposing him. Sorry Lugo/Gsellman i agree with that, but its a mistake. Montero sucks. Lugo has had good production coming out of the pen, and games you lose in April count just as much as those in October.

Nymr83 Feb 16 2018 06:44 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

yes, its a mistake. i have pretty mixed feelings about the Vargas deal. he is an improvement over Harvey, but will the Mets really replace Harvey or will they replace someone who Vargas is NOT an improvement over? the other issue - this is "real money" as in "the owner just shelled out his money and guaranteed this guy will play" not like Gonzalez who was cheap enough to be easily discarded if a better options comes along. This is basically an admission that the Mets are not in the running for Arrieta, Cobb, or Lynn. i dont like that part. i guess i am ok with the signing in a vacuum but dont like the implications.

Ceetar Feb 16 2018 06:56 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Nymr83 wrote: yes, its a mistake. i have pretty mixed feelings about the Vargas deal. he is an improvement over Harvey, but will the Mets really replace Harvey or will they replace someone who Vargas is NOT an improvement over? the other issue - this is "real money" as in "the owner just shelled out his money and guaranteed this guy will play" not like Gonzalez who was cheap enough to be easily discarded if a better options comes along. This is basically an admission that the Mets are not in the running for Arrieta, Cobb, or Lynn. i dont like that part. i guess i am ok with the signing in a vacuum but dont like the implications. Vargas is better than Cobb or Lynn.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 16 2018 06:59 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Ceetar wrote: Vargas is better than Cobb or Lynn. Really? I hope so. If true, then this is a brilliant move. Vargas was an All-Star last year, but he was terrible in the second half. That second-half dropoff is concerning. Hopefully it has a benign explanation.

A Boy Named Seo Feb 16 2018 07:03 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Ceetar wrote: Vargas is better than Cobb or Lynn. Really? I hope so. If true, then this is a brilliant move. Vargas was an All-Star last year, but he was terrible in the second half. That second-half dropoff is concerning. Hopefully it has a benign explanation. Nah, I don't think that's close to true. His WAR and expected ERAs were close to Lynn's last season, but both players have been better and are younger than Vargas. He might be a better value in the end than one or both, but he will most certainly be cheaper and didn't cost the Mets a pick.

Ceetar Feb 16 2018 07:06 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

no, i'm wrong. I must've been thinking of something else. Lynn and Cobb did do okay last year, though I don't particularly bank on any of the three being particularly good.

Edgy MD Feb 16 2018 07:09 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

The Mets started last season seemingly in excellent position, with seven guys primed for the rotation, but instead ended up using 12, of whom 1 1/3 were healthy and effective enough to pitch contender-quality baseball, maybe 1 1/2, if you distinguish Montero's occasional runs of goodness in there and give him 1/6 of a point. Firing on five cylinders is always elusive, but I understand why they want to prime nine guys this year instead of seven, and if somehow injuries don't make the decisions for them, two end up in the minors and two in the bullpen. The main problem is that this cuts against the manager's expressed wish that he have a couple of bullpen backenders with options.

Frayed Knot Feb 16 2018 08:00 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Vargas was an All-Star last year, but he was terrible in the second half. That second-half dropoff is concerning. Hopefully it has a benign explanation. When in doubt, go to the old stand-by: He was tipping his pitches

Benjamin Grimm Feb 16 2018 08:05 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Or that he needs Tommy John surgery.

Lefty Specialist Feb 16 2018 08:55 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

I don't like this. A two-year deal for a 35-year-old who faded in the second half. So there are too many clowns in this car; someone has to go. Possible that injuries will do that, but right now you have Thor/DeGrom/Matz/Vargas/Harvey/Wheeler. If they all want to start, then they're going to have to battle for it. I'm guessing Wheeler will be the one left without a chair when the music stops. But just not sold on Vargas.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 16 2018 08:56 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

I'm okay with them having to battle for it. If enough of the other guys are healthy and pitching well, then maybe Vargas becomes the long man/swing man. A modern-day Pat Mahomes.

seawolf17 Feb 16 2018 08:58 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Proof that pitcher wins don't mean anything: Vargas led the AL with 18 last year.

A Boy Named Seo Feb 16 2018 09:05 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Not sold on Vargas either, but like Edge said, we tried to have SP coverage last year and torched through it in, like, 3 games. All these dudes are gonna their innings still, I bet. If Wheeler starts in the pen, he could be a bad-ass reliever getting high-leverage outs in early innings (5th/6th) and we'll still have Ramos/Blevins/Sleestak/Familia. If Harv/Matz gets hurt, Wheeler will be in there for those starts. The 10-day DL gave starters extra days off a lot last year, too. Wheeler could still get 140-150 IP.

Vic Sage Feb 16 2018 09:09 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Edgy MD wrote: The Mets started last season seemingly in excellent position, with seven guys primed for the rotation, but instead ended up using 12, of whom 1 1/3 were healthy and effective enough to pitch contender-quality baseball, maybe 1 1/2, if you distinguish Montero's occasional runs of goodness in there and give him 1/6 of a point. Firing on five cylinders is always elusive, but I understand why they want to prime nine guys this year instead of seven, and if somehow injuries don't make the decisions for them, two end up in the minors and two in the bullpen. The main problem is that this cuts against the manager's expressed wish that he have a couple of bullpen backenders with options. all true, but my problem is which 9 guys. They've chosen Vargas over other options in the market, eliminating Cobb and Lynn (for example). so instead of getting a 3rd starter, we'll have Harvey or Matz getting the 3rd slot in the rotation by default, instead of having them compete for the the 4th and 5th, and we've spent our last $$ to fill in the back end or end up in the pen. That's disappointing. It's not tragic, and i'm not upset about it, but it is what it is.

Valadius Feb 16 2018 09:28 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Best we can hope for is Glendon Rusch.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 16 2018 09:30 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Well, we can hope for R.A. Dickey 2012, can't we?

Vic Sage Feb 16 2018 09:36 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Well, we can hope for R.A. Dickey 2012, can't we? did Vargas learn a knuckleball?

Benjamin Grimm Feb 16 2018 09:37 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Well, we can hope that he learned a knuckleball!

MFS62 Feb 17 2018 02:21 AM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Or that he needs Tommy John surgery. He HAD TJ surgery - about 2 or 3 years ago. Last year was his first full year back after that surgery. He faded in the second half because, as his pitching coach said. "He just ran out of gas".* His pitching coach last year? Dave Eiland. I think its reasonable that the Mets signed Vargas because of Eiland's recommendation. I also think that because he (hopefully) won't have to start more than, say, 20-25 games, he'll stay strong and be a positive contributor to the team. And having that second lefty in the bullpen won't hurt, either. I like this signing. Later * Heard this on WFAN today.

41Forever Feb 17 2018 03:28 AM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Or, are they planning to deal a starter as part of a deal for another player? Matz or Wheeler get traded?

Fman99 Feb 17 2018 03:54 AM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Vargas had a rotten 2nd half, but, BUT, if you look, his September numbers (albeit against callups, sure) were better than the July/August shitfest he put out there. I'm a "half full" guy, though.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Feb 17 2018 07:47 AM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Valadius wrote: Best we can hope for is Glendon Rusch. That's not a bad thing, if we're talking Metly GR; I mean, it's unlikely, given that Vargas strikes out fewer, walks a few more, and is generally not as... good as Good Rusch was. But if we get 1/2-to-2/3 of that (20 starts at 2 fWAR), even, it's a good deal. Even in a depressed market, Cobb and Lynn likely will go for significantly more. This isn't a bad signing, if you consider that it's probably a depth move and that it probably indicates that we weren't going to be shopping in that aisle. But it does make me a little nervous bringing him-- a pitch-to-contact guy AND a pretty extreme flyball guy-- to a team with iffy OF defense, at a time when every other team is focusing on hitting pitches higher and harder.

seawolf17 Feb 17 2018 12:40 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

MFS62 wrote: His pitching coach last year? Dave Eiland. You know? I didn't even think of that. If there was something wrong with him, Eiland would know it. Maybe this is a better deal than we think.

G-Fafif Feb 19 2018 10:53 PM Re: I guess we should probably talk about Jason Vargas, huh

Occasionally the Mets bring in guys coming off 18-win seasons. Or guys who have 18-win seasons in their past. Jason Vargas is the hook for this exploration of the subject.