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Bad Parenting

Centerfield
May 10 2018 03:35 PM

Last night, during his baseball practice, I heard my son get it from his teammates about the Mets losing and batting out of order. There is one other Mets fan on the team, the rest root for the Yankees. As we were leaving the cage, all of them stopped to watch the exciting (and very relevant) Yankees-Red Sox game. My son glanced at the TV, then walked out. That game doesn't concern him, and he clearly doesn't want to stick around to get the ribbing they'll throw at him. It's good natured, but even at 12 years old, I can see it starting to get old. This morning, I watched him put on his Mets hat again and walk out the door. I'm sure he'll hear it again today about the high-flying Yankees, his friends will rightfully tell him that the Mets will be irrelevant again before the end of May.

And as a parent, you wonder. What the fuck have I done.

There are very few Mets fans his age. If I had to guess, I'd say less than 20% of his age group root for the Mets. And all of those kids have parents that are Mets fans. In other words, if the parents aren't Mets fans, there is virtually no chance a kid his age will root for the Mets. (There are plenty of Met fan parents who say their kids root for the Yankees, almost none the other way around.)

And this makes all the sense in the world. In what universe would a kid voluntarily root for this team? ShortCenter will be 13 this year. Since was born, the Mets have made the post-season three times (including the one game WC in 2016). The first one was in 2006, when he was one, and too young to know what was going on. He started understanding the game of baseball at age 4, and then grew up watching 6 straight losing seasons. During that time, I told him to be patient. Losing was part of baseball. The Mets were building to something. That something came in the second half of 2015, when the Mets caught fire all the way to the World Series. They followed that with a respectable 87 win season in 2016. Since then, misery again. That's his payoff. That's the extent of his baseball joy as a kid. One real post-season, one Wild Card game. He's gone to 1 post-season game. And sure yes, there's joy to be taken from winning and losing. But at the end, you want to see your team fucking win.

His buddy, a big Yankee fan, was born a month earlier than him. During his lifetime, the Yankees have made the post-season 9 of his 12 years. He's gone to at least a dozen post-season games. Just when SC was starting his run of 6 losing seasons, his buddy went to the World Series parade.

And the thing is, it's not going to change. Not as long as the Wilpons are owners. The Mets will never commit to winning above all else, so this is what it's going to be from now on. Why on earth would I make him a fan of this team when there are teams (not just the Yankees) that commit to winning each year?

It's one thing if you live in Cleveland, or Pittsburgh, where the team is limited by geography. You can justify the David vs. Goliath angle. You can teach your kids the value of getting the most of what you are given. But there are no lessons to be learned from self-imposed financial restrictions caused by participation in an illegal Ponzi-scheme. There is no nobility in handicaps arising from one's own wrongdoing.

I used to say for years "Well the Yankees just buy their championships. There's no pride to be gained from that." You know, that's not at all true. The Yankees, and the Dodgers and the Red Sox, and the Cubs have all developed terrific home-grown talent. Then taken advantage of the rules of their sport to supplement that talent with high-priced acquisitions to create kick ass teams. The Mets, with their "let's try to be good enough to get a wildcard" outlook, will never be able to compete with that. Get lucky here and there? Maybe. But on a long-term basis? No.

So why the fuck do we root for them?

Sure son. Winning seasons and post-season baseball may be good for some. And other people might like rooting for clubs who show a commitment to being the best. But instead, come with me to CitiField, where we can root for a second-tier team owned by guys who lost money participating in fraud. All because daddy decided to root for a player named "Strawberry" when he was 8 years old.

Benjamin Grimm
May 10 2018 03:38 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Your son makes his own decisions. As you said, there are other Mets fan parents whose kids have decided to root for the Yankees. Yours didn't. Maybe he's rightfully put off by the smug attitude of their fans and decided he doesn't want to be one of them.

cooby
May 10 2018 03:39 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

CF where were you again? A TV at practice.

But yeah, razzing by the other teams fans’ kids’ is rotten

Centerfield
May 10 2018 03:44 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Oh, his team had a session at the batting cage. Indoor place on 74th street. They have TVs in the hallway and lobby.

Ceetar
May 10 2018 03:50 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Just make sure you he's not being a jerk about in in August when the Yankees are 3 games out of a wild card and the Mets just crushed the Nationals to take a 4 game lead in the division, what goes around comes around.

cooby
May 10 2018 03:51 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Lol okay. I thought you had a heck of a swanky ballpark!

I applaud your boy for sticking with the Mets :)

A Boy Named Seo
May 10 2018 03:57 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Like G said in the 67 v. 87 yearbook matchup, it's easy to get excited about a championship team. We all wish the Mets were great at baseball and won all the time, but the pain of failure grows us as humans and makes us genuinely appreciate the things in our lives that will make us pause and remember them before we die. This includes the sweet windows of time that cracked open for the briefest moments to let us experience this weirdly powerful and irrational joy that sprung from watching a baseball team beat all the other baseball teams one year. Your kid will remember that stuff one day. I'm sure some of these Yankee kids are fine children who get good grades, don't litter, and are generally nice to their parents. But they won't have the strength of character your kid will have from growing up loving the shitty New York Mets.

PS - I thought you were gonna say you punched out a dad wearing a Paul O'Neill jersey. That would be bad parenting.

d'Kong76
May 10 2018 04:04 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Centerfield wrote:
So why the fuck do we root for them?

I got an irreversible DNA implant in the early 70's.

In another year or two, when you think your son is ready, you can teach
him about YLD's and he'll see the light! hahahaha

Centerfield
May 10 2018 04:04 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Your son makes his own decisions. As you said, there are other Mets fan parents whose kids have decided to root for the Yankees. Yours didn't. Maybe he's rightfully put off by the smug attitude of their fans and decided he doesn't want to be one of them.


For most things yes. But I don't know that I ever gave him the chance on this one. Most of the Met parent fans whose kids root for other teams are not nearly as active as me. SC was dressed in Mets clothes as a baby, he got a teddy bear named Mookie. We watch or listen to at least a 100 games per year and go to Citi at least 3-4 times each season. My brother is a big fan and they text each other about it. I don't know if he ever had a real choice here. I am seriously considering sitting him down and telling him that everything I told him about the nobility of rooting for this team was wrong. He should root for whoever he wants. I mean, I'm guessing it's way too late now. But I feel like I should at least say something.

ceetar wrote:
Just make sure you he's not being a jerk about in in August when the Yankees are 3 games out of a wild card and the Mets just crushed the Nationals to take a 4 game lead in the division, what goes around comes around.


I would love for this to be true. And this is what I told him during his entire childhood. Wait until next year. Wait until the rebuild is done. But let's face it. This is never going to happen. Not on any sustained level. The process is wrong. Unless there is a wholesale change in philosophy, there will never, ever be a 5 year stretch where the Mets outperform the Yankees.

Ceetar
May 10 2018 04:13 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Centerfield wrote:


I would love for this to be true. And this is what I told him during his entire childhood. Wait until next year. Wait until the rebuild is done. But let's face it. This is never going to happen. Not on any sustained level. The process is wrong. Unless there is a wholesale change in philosophy, there will never, ever be a 5 year stretch where the Mets outperform the Yankees.


Well, do you mean every year or as an aggregate? because damn, the Mets have had more success over the last 5 years. both made playoffs twice. Mets won two series to their one. Mets went to the World Series, with a real shot to win it.

If the Mets do in fact go farther in the playoffs this year than them, you could extend to more than 5 years.



But whatever, it's not about RINGZ! baseball is a social thing. Right now he's, presumably, having fun with you on your Mets outings, watching the games. There might come a time when all his friends want to go to Yankee stadium and he wants to not be a grouch about it. Maybe that's okay. That's not his collection of little league

Like, forced narratives aside, real talk, Yankees fans and Mets fans are roughly the same people, to like, the 99th %tile.

It's hard being so invested in something outside your control, but like, that's kinda life too.

Centerfield
May 10 2018 04:28 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

I know it's not about the RINGZ. Neither the Mets nor Yankees have any titles in the last 5 years. But the Mets have had losing seasons in 3 of those last 5 years. The Yankees last losing season was 1995.

G-Fafif
May 10 2018 04:28 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

CF, sounds like you're raising a real mensch. You wouldn't have it in you to parent a frontrunning jerk.

Centerfield
May 10 2018 04:55 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

G-Fafif wrote:
CF, sounds like you're raising a real mensch. You wouldn't have it in you to parent a frontrunning jerk.


He's really the sweetest kid around. Hell of a lot nicer than me. He's at the age where baseball still means the world to him, but he won't be there for long. The Mets could have won back to back championships when I was in college, but it wouldn't have meant nearly as much to me as that '86 team.

I don't know. I just feel like I did him a real disservice. His entire childhood has been three months of 2015, one decent year in 2016, and the rest of it hearing how the Mets suck. When I was growing up, I got to see a Mets team that was competitive for 7 straight years. 6 times they won 90 games. 2 times, they won 100. A World Championship. '85 Gooden. He's never going to see anything like that.

G-Fafif
May 10 2018 05:03 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Centerfield wrote:
I just feel like I did him a real disservice. His entire childhood has been three months of 2015, one decent year in 2016, and the rest of it hearing how the Mets suck. When I was growing up, I got to see a Mets team that was competitive for 7 straight years. 6 times they won 90 games. 2 times, they won 100. A World Championship. '85 Gooden. He's never going to see anything like that.


The past is the luck of the draw; the future is you never know. You did good.

41Forever
May 10 2018 05:57 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

You did well.

Yankee fans are entitled. They expect to win, they expect the best players to go there and they expect lavish praise even when they don't deserve it -- see Jeter, Derek F. When they don't get those things, they feel screwed. They look down on all others. There is no joy in their celebrations. Not real joy, anyway.

Mets fans appreciate the good times better because they earn them. Nothing comes easy. When the championships come, they are savored and appreciated. You think those guys remember and celebrate the 25th man of those Torre dynasty teams the way we talk about Ed Hearn and Rick Anderson Randy Niemann? Not a chance.

And that's what life is like. Struggle and hard work leading to success.

It is far better to be this guy:



Than this guy:

d'Kong76
May 10 2018 06:07 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Benjamin Grimm
May 10 2018 06:13 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Centerfield wrote:
Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Your son makes his own decisions. As you said, there are other Mets fan parents whose kids have decided to root for the Yankees. Yours didn't. Maybe he's rightfully put off by the smug attitude of their fans and decided he doesn't want to be one of them.


For most things yes. But I don't know that I ever gave him the chance on this one.


I really and truly believe that kids shares interests with their parents if they're by nature inclined to do so. Certainly that's true by the time they're 13 years old. Would he have been a Mets fan if you weren't? Maybe not. But he certainly had a choice.

Methead
May 10 2018 06:20 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

I don't know where I got it, but I had a Yankees jacket when I was a little kid.

I'm thankful that shit didn't stick to me.

Centerfield
May 10 2018 06:44 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Your son makes his own decisions. As you said, there are other Mets fan parents whose kids have decided to root for the Yankees. Yours didn't. Maybe he's rightfully put off by the smug attitude of their fans and decided he doesn't want to be one of them.


For most things yes. But I don't know that I ever gave him the chance on this one.


I really and truly believe that kids shares interests with their parents if they're by nature inclined to do so. Certainly that's true by the time they're 13 years old. Would he have been a Mets fan if you weren't? Maybe not. But he certainly had a choice.


This is ShortCenter when he was zero. And Mookie. This isn't too much pressure to root for the Mets?

Benjamin Grimm
May 10 2018 06:50 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

I got dragged to church every Sunday and every Holy Day of Obligation. I had eight years of catechism. I never really felt it, never believed it, never wanted it, and when I was old enough I walked away from it. Your son is a free-thinking human being and if he didn't want this, he'd know he had options.

DocTee
May 10 2018 07:52 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

My wife and I are Mets fans. We lived in the SF Bay Area for 15+ years-- both our daughters were born and raised there.

The Giants won three titles in six years, and we often went to their gorgeous stadium as a family. One day, the kids came home from school with "important news"-- they were Giants fans. I can't say I blame them.

sharpie
May 10 2018 08:22 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

My son, the long-ago poster Lenny Harris, grew up a Mets fan in the midst of the Yankee late '90s early 2000s run of WS titles. He was 8 and a big Met fan for the 2000 World Series. We went to the stupid Met-Yankee rally in Bryant Park. Most of the kids he knew were Yankee fans although his best friend was not a baseball fan.

I do think being a Met fan in Yankee ascendant times teaches good lessons: the rich shouldn't have everything; gloating is obnoxious; be skeptical of idiot traditions.

Being a Met fan builds character in a way that being a Yankee fan doesn't. He's not a real baseball fan anymore but is a good person -- he doesn't gloat, he is skeptical of idiot traditions, he was there at the beginning of Occupy Wall Street so he certainly isn't a fan of the rich.

Your son will be fine, CF. LGM.

Lefty Specialist
May 10 2018 08:33 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

My son, born in 1995, had a similar path. He could barely comprehend baseball when the Yankees beat the Mets in 2000. He was crushed by a frozen Carlos Beltran when he was 11, then doubly crushed when he was 12 and 13 by Mets collapses. Yankee fans made his life miserable. But it also taught him to appreciate the good times when they were so fleeting. We Skyped game 3 of the World Series in 2015 with him, as we were having a party and he wanted to be a part of it even though he was 200 miles away at college. It was awesome.

This year, at 11-1, he said he was leery of the start. He knows the pain. But he could never be a Yankee fan. Living in Washington now, he says that one of the best things about the city is the lack of YLDB's. :)

John Cougar Lunchbucket
May 10 2018 08:47 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

sharpie wrote:
My son, the long-ago poster Lenny Harris, grew up a Mets fan in the midst of the Yankee late '90s early 2000s run of WS titles. He was 8 and a big Met fan for the 2000 World Series. We went to the stupid Met-Yankee rally in Bryant Park. Most of the kids he knew were Yankee fans although his best friend was not a baseball fan.

I do think being a Met fan in Yankee ascendant times teaches good lessons: the rich shouldn't have everything; gloating is obnoxious; be skeptical of idiot traditions.

Being a Met fan builds character in a way that being a Yankee fan doesn't. He's not a real baseball fan anymore but is a good person -- he doesn't gloat, he is skeptical of idiot traditions, he was there at the beginning of Occupy Wall Street so he certainly isn't a fan of the rich.

Your son will be fine, CF. LGM.


Off the Keyspan sign

seawolf17
May 11 2018 01:29 AM
Re: Bad Parenting

sharpie wrote:
My son, the long-ago poster Lenny Harris, grew up a Mets fan in the midst of the Yankee late '90s early 2000s run of WS titles. He was 8 and a big Met fan for the 2000 World Series. We went to the stupid Met-Yankee rally in Bryant Park. Most of the kids he knew were Yankee fans although his best friend was not a baseball fan.

I do think being a Met fan in Yankee ascendant times teaches good lessons: the rich shouldn't have everything; gloating is obnoxious; be skeptical of idiot traditions.

Being a Met fan builds character in a way that being a Yankee fan doesn't. He's not a real baseball fan anymore but is a good person -- he doesn't gloat, he is skeptical of idiot traditions, he was there at the beginning of Occupy Wall Street so he certainly isn't a fan of the rich.

Your son will be fine, CF. LGM.

This is it for me. There's a reason the quote says "rooting for the MFYs is like rooting for US Steel."

Fman99
May 11 2018 01:43 AM
Re: Bad Parenting

My son is 13 too. He also loves the Mets. He elates when they win and curses (in a non profane, 13 year old adorable fashion) when they lose or when they suffer injuries. And he's taken some shit, in little league (when he was wearing a bright compression sleeve like Yo only to get ribbed for it), and probably at school. He wore his Cespedes shirt today. The Mets swag is in regular rotation, regardless of the team's record. He does it because it's part of who he is. He's a Mets fan.

Having said that, it's easier, up in the 'Cuse, than I suspect it is in the boroughs. It's just less prevalent here. There are Mets and Yankee fans, his age and mine, but it all takes a backseat to other sports, Syracuse basketball, Bills football, local minor league hockey and baseball, etc. I'd say there are more MFY fans than Mets fans up here but we've closed the gap with the 2015-2016 successes, plus the impending arrival of the Syracuse Mets AAA ballclub.

Here's the thing, though. It's not about how much more likely some other team's fans are to get to experience the joy of being champions. It's about the bond you forge with your child over baseball, rooting for the same team.

Your son, I am sure, wants to be like you. If you're doing it right, or, really, even if you're not. That's how they do it. He'll live and die with the Mets, same as Fboy, and you and me. He won't abandon his fandom if you don't.

And I'm not giving up mine.

Because it's the bond I shared with my dad, as a kid.

(My dad grew up a MFY fan, in the 1950s, but living in Flushing, he gravitated to the team after Shea opened (he was 19 in 1964) and gave up on the MFYs when the Steinbrenner era kicked in.)

We drove to Shea to watch games, first as a four person family with Fbro and Fmom, and then, once I was older, just he and I (as my mom and brother were never huge baseball fans). And he's gone now, and I can't talk about the Mets with him, so that is just a thing that I have in my heart, that I still think about. We went to our last game together at Shea, in 2006-2007 sometime.

And now my son and I go and repeat the process. We watch the games on TV. We drive 1-2 times per year to Flushing to see it live. Someday, Fboy will (Lord willing) be a father to Fgrandson and they will drive down to see the Dominic Smith Rotunda and count the rings on display, and he'll tell his son the stories about how his dad took him to Citi Field, and the time Mr. Met waved to him, and the time he got to try on a real deal World Series championship ring, and 30 other stories from his childhood, and the dream will perpetuate.

And you know what? They'll be 38-51 that year and it won't matter one damn bit.

Keep doing what you do.

seawolf17
May 11 2018 02:00 AM
Re: Bad Parenting

no YOU'RE crying

cooby
May 11 2018 02:41 AM
Re: Bad Parenting

My daughter played junior high basketball

One of her best friends (Katie) was a Yankees fan. My son (named for Tony Pena) is a Cleveland Indians fan.

Sometime in the mid 90’s, after the Indians beat the Yankees in a playoff, my grammar school aged little boy walked into the gym for a big-sister b-ball game in his full Indians regalia, and Katie saying ‘aw, Tony ’

Sweet memories. CF all these things will eventually become the best things of your life. It all interweaves.

metsmarathon
May 11 2018 12:04 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

in the words of john kennedy:

"We choose to root for the Mets. We choose root for the Mets to win and do the other things, not because it is easy, but because it is hard."

Mets fandom builds character. yankee fandom builds douchebaggery - as the other kids are so helpfully demonstrating. choose character.

Edgy MD
May 11 2018 12:19 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Sheesh guys, you've made this a Game Six of a thread.

dgwphotography
May 11 2018 01:52 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Youse guys make me proud to be a Mets fan...

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
May 11 2018 02:03 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

You know how there's been a shift in childbearing philosophy over the last decade or two away from praising results ("good score," "nice grades") and toward praising effort?

Baseball fandom isn't about the winning... not at ne plus ultra, anyhow. (Right?) It's about getting up after a strikeout or a gut-punch loss or a brushback and, well, continuing. Persisting. Maintaining faith that tomorrow may be different, and working accordingly. The joys are in the tickertape and high-fives... but also embedded in the journey, of course. The point isn't just also the persistence... it is the persistence. It's about learning to find and appreciate the joy in the mundane, not just the highest highs (or operatic lows).

Some of the best people I know are Yankee fans. But I guaran-damn-tee you that-- whether they know it or not-- I got a hell of a lot more out of my fandom than they did.

A Boy Named Seo
May 11 2018 03:39 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Fboy in the Yo compression sleeve is one of my favorite tidbits of all the cool stuff in this thread.

Centerfield
May 14 2018 10:05 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

So in the end, what it comes down to is the ability to separate the Mets from the Wilpons.

The Mets organization is owned by the Wilpons, and for the foreseeable future, they always will be. So how do you separate them out? You can't root for the Wilpons. They are crooks and despicable people. So how does one root for their organization.

But if you separate the Mets and the Wilpons, and view the Wilpons as just another obstacle for this noble team to overcome, I guess one can still justify rooting for the Mets.

I mean, in that case, we really are rooting for laundry.

Edgy MD
May 14 2018 10:43 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

If the issue is that Wilpons are dispicable, you're not going to find a whole lot of true honorable types out there among sports owning billionaires.

You may differ, but beyond the Wilpons, I think there's a lot more to root for, to associate with, and take joy in associating with, than the laundry.

Centerfield
May 14 2018 10:47 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Both your points are correct.

The reasons the Wilpons are special, is that few owners actually hurt the on-field product through their despicable actions.

I rooted for the Indians even when that ex-showgirl wanted to move them to Miami. Precedent has been set.

41Forever
May 14 2018 10:49 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 15 2018 12:50 PM

Centerfield wrote:
So in the end, what it comes down to is the ability to separate the Mets from the Wilpons.

The Mets organization is owned by the Wilpons, and for the foreseeable future, they always will be. So how do you separate them out? You can't root for the Wilpons. They are crooks and despicable people. So how does one root for their organization.

But if you separate the Mets and the Wilpons, and view the Wilpons as just another obstacle for this noble team to overcome, I guess one can still justify rooting for the Mets.

I mean, in that case, we really are rooting for laundry.


I take it you are too young to remember M. Donald Grant?

That gentleman was so out of touch that he allowed surrogates to beat down his best player -- the franchise icon in his prime -- in the press then trade him, and others, in a spit of spite. Then he refused to accept that the game had changed since the 1950s, thought a racing donkey would appeal to fans and could have realistically shut down the upper deck for two seasons. If I can survive that, you can survive these guys. There is no comparison.

If the alternative is the Steinbrenners, I'll take the Wilpons. Every day. Fred's never been given a lifetime ban for paying people to round up dirt on his own star players, or hired the same manager five times, or been suspended for other abuses or belittled a player as a "fat toad" or any of the other things the people owning the other team have been responsible for.

batmagadanleadoff
May 14 2018 11:56 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Oh, please ferchrissakes, before I throw up in my mouth. Steinbrenner never knowingly put his and the Yankees money in the history of the world's biggest Ponzi scheme ever, blinded by greed and figgering his good friend Bernie Madoff would protect him when the shit hit the fan and the redemptions came a callin'. The only reason the Wilpons still own their MLB team and Frank McCourt doesn't is because eff Wilpon has better social skills.

Zip a dee doo dah, what a wonderful delusion world you see where eff Wilpon, Donald Trump and count Betsy Devos are the good guys.

Centerfield
May 14 2018 11:59 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

I am too young to know Grant. I’ve read terrible things.

If I had to choose between the Wilpons and Steinbrenners I’d choose Steinbrenners any day.

George was disgraceful sure. But at the least he never wavered in his commitment to win. That’s the number one trait an owner should have.

And now that he’s gone the organization is top notch. Smart people at the helm. Well funded. No scandals. Give me that any day.

batmagadanleadoff
May 15 2018 12:08 AM
Re: Bad Parenting

Centerfield wrote:
I am too young to know Grant. I’ve read terrible things.

If I had to choose between the Wilpons and Steinbrenners I’d choose Steinbrenners any day.

George was disgraceful sure. But at the least he never wavered in his commitment to win. That’s the number one trait an owner should have.


Grant was awful, but pales in awfulness next to eff Wilpon, which is the worst thing to happen to the Mets in their entire history, not even close. And Grant's reign was limited to a handful of years until Doubleday bought the Mets.

And you nailed Steinbrenner-- above all, he wanted to win and to be the top NY dog. His plan wasn't to assemble an 83 win team and hope for lotsa luck. And Madoff. (see my post above yours).

Nymr83
May 15 2018 01:05 AM
Re: Bad Parenting

George might have sone some sleazy shit, but Hal Steinbrenner is pretty much the model of good ownership

Ceetar
May 15 2018 02:16 AM
Re: Bad Parenting

Nymr83 wrote:
George might have sone some sleazy shit, but Hal Steinbrenner is pretty much the model of good ownership



lol. he's a sleezy rich profit-monger just like the rest of them.

seawolf17
May 15 2018 12:44 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Ceetar wrote:
Nymr83 wrote:
George might have sone some sleazy shit, but Hal Steinbrenner is pretty much the model of good ownership



lol. he's a sleezy rich profit-monger just like the rest of them.

Unquestionably, yes, but he doesn't seem to let it affect the product on the field. If Cashman goes to him and says "I need $400M for Harper" next off-season, he'll get it.

41Forever
May 15 2018 12:51 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

What's a profit-monger?

seawolf17
May 15 2018 12:54 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

41Forever wrote:
What's a profit-monger?

Profit uber alles. And admittedly, that's their job as owners. But that doesn't mean we have to swear blind allegiance. Even though I still totally do.

metirish
May 15 2018 01:04 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

For whatever reason at Lorcan's school( St. Theresa Bronx) several of the teachers are big Mets fans, his current 5th Grade teacher a die hard, so that helps...also helps that the only reason why Lorcan likes the Mets is because of me....but honestly he doesn't watch when they are on, never asks me the score...so in that respect it doesn't bother him and that is good.

Ceetar
May 15 2018 01:20 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

41Forever wrote:
What's a profit-monger?


Hal would cut payroll to 4 million and tell MLB to fuck off with the complaining about them taking money and not spending it on the team if he felt like a 4 million payroll makes him more money than a 204 million one. Without a hesitation.

seawolf17 wrote:

Unquestionably, yes, but he doesn't seem to let it affect the product on the field. If Cashman goes to him and says "I need $400M for Harper" next off-season, he'll get it.


maybe. I still don't see that, especially given the Stanton trade.(Machado would actually be their guy unless these prospects really really work out) But it helps to have 'acquired' the team when he did. Already running with a huge profit margin. And if you think he's not making all sorts of investments all over the place that are skirting laws and loopholes, you're kidding yourself. It's just that his 'Madoff' is slightly to the otherside of the legality line. So far. Well, if there exists a line anymore. Certain people are working to make sure people like Steinbrenner and Wilpon get much much richer, but that's more for the politics thread.

Edgy MD
May 15 2018 01:31 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

I'm not sure what we're talking about.

If we prefer the Yankees, we prefer the Yankees. If not, why lionize Hal Steinbrenner?

Ceetar
May 15 2018 01:34 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Edgy MD wrote:
I'm not sure what we're talking about.

If we prefer the Yankees, we prefer the Yankees. If not, why lionize Hal Steinbrenner?


there's a strong, large, and persistent faction of the Mets fanbase that wishes they were Yankee fans and it's only stubborn pride, opportunity, or tradition that keeps them from making the switch.

Rockin' Doc
May 15 2018 01:54 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

I would give up my interest in MLB, before I would become a Yankee fan.

Centerfield
May 15 2018 02:00 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

The original point is whether making our kids Mets fans was the right thing to do. We subject them to losing and ridicule. Is it worth it?

Overcoming adversity and teaching against entitlement are good life lessons. And I can definitely get behind that. But with the Mets, it’s clouded once you realize that the adversity they have to overcome is self-inflicted by fraudulent behavior.

So I think the emotional connection comes from whether you can separate the Mets (the team? The laundry? The history?) from their owners.

An argument was made that our owners were better than the owners across town. That argument was shot down. Our owners are much worse. It’s not even close. I guess that qualifies as “lionizing”.

And now the familiar argument comes up that if we want our owners to act like the Yankee owners, we secretly want to be Yankee fans.

No dumbass. We want our organization to have good, smart owners who are committed to winning and don’t engage in fraud.

Ceetar
May 15 2018 02:08 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

I mean, hell, it's tough. The Wilpons are not good people, and if that's enough for you to not want to support the product that's fine. Same could be said for quite a few corporations, and it's a tough road sometimes. Hobby Lobby, Chick Fil-A, Walmart, etc. I'm reluctant to support those, which are probably worse than the Wilpons.

But then there are the other people. the employees, the players, the workers at the stadium. They benefit by your support of the team. exponentially less than the Wilpons sure, but that's life. Do we stop watching House of Cards because Spacey is a predator? What about all the other actors, the behind the scenes people working on the set, the writers, that might just be flat out out of a job if we don't?

I don't know what to tell you. The difference between the Wilpons and the Steinbrenners, the Mets and the Yankees, hell the Mets and the Padres, is way less than you're making it out to be, and the reasons to follow the Mets/baseball is generally so far removed from overall record during the years you follow and the owners pocketbooks. But if it's not, sure, step away.

Edgy MD
May 15 2018 02:12 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Centerfield, you've come at one guy this morning as being "stupid and lazy," and another as a "dumbass."

I'm sorry the team has played poorly of late, but please lets try to be cool to one another.

d'Kong76
May 15 2018 04:36 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

This thread is really all over the map. I kinda didn't keep up because I felt
like the underlying premise by CF was that he did something wrong to his
wonderful sounding kid by thrusting Met fandom on him and I guess I find
that notion kind of absurd.
Ceetar wrote:
there's a strong, large, and persistent faction of the Mets fanbase that wishes they were Yankee fans and it's only stubborn pride, opportunity, or tradition that keeps them from making the switch.

Absof'nlutely!

Two more cents, the only time I ever think about the Wilpons is when they
come up here.

A Boy Named Seo
May 15 2018 05:25 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

I am also conflicted as to whether my parenting is any good. My friends brought this gift for my pooch, Willie Nelson, but now I am a person who has put clothes on a dog. #conflicted



Centerfield
May 15 2018 05:25 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Edgy MD wrote:
Centerfield, you've come at one guy this morning as being "stupid and lazy," and another as a "dumbass."

I'm sorry the team has played poorly of late, but please lets try to be cool to one another.


I agree that we should be cool to one another. But "cool" should go beyond "don't use bad words".

At the end of this thread, after reading all the feedback, I accepted that you can justify rooting for the Mets by teaching your kid the lesson of overcoming adversity. And if you can separate the club from its owners, the Madoff scandal, the Castergine lawsuit, etc., then all the shortcomings of the Wilpons, can be viewed as obstacles facing the Mets, rather than character traits of the Mets.

Simply put:

Scenario A: The Mets engaged in fraud, and have now put themselves at a disadvantage competitively. They also tend to be dicks to pregnant women. Can you justify rooting for the Mets? No way.

Scenario B: The Mets are a noble team that have been handcuffed by their crooked owners. Can you justify rooting for the Mets? Absolutely.

End of discussion really, for my purposes.

Then, it was suggested that the Wilpons are not so bad. In fact, they are better than the owners across town. This is patently not true. Even during the George years, you never questioned his desire to win above all else, even if the method was crooked. And certainly since then, they have not been anything but a solid, well run team. Pointing this out is not "lionizing" anyone. Nor is it indicative of some secret desire to be a Yankee fan. Both ideas are an insult far worse than "dumbass". You don't have to use potty words to be a jerk.

So when I say that the person who conveyed this idea is a dumbass, it's an expression of anger reacting to a stupid accusation.

I want my team to have smart, ethical, trustworthy, competent ownership. That doesn't make me a secret Yankee fan.

I stand by the idea that the post in the other thread is stupid and lazy. There are two pages of posts all talking about the need to commit to one philosophy or the other. A post the comes in and refutes a theory that literally no one has proposed is dumb and a waste of time.

Edgy MD
May 15 2018 05:29 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Centerfield wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
Centerfield, you've come at one guy this morning as being "stupid and lazy," and another as a "dumbass."

I'm sorry the team has played poorly of late, but please lets try to be cool to one another.


I agree that we should be cool to one another. But "cool" should go beyond "don't use bad words".

Resisting such attacks would be a lovely place to start. It's pretty much all we've ever asked.

d'Kong76
May 15 2018 05:44 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

[fimg=250:2fqzr8sf]http://i.imgur.com/3f1BBVDl.jpg[/fimg:2fqzr8sf][fimg=250:2fqzr8sf]http://i.imgur.com/aqGqH6ul.jpg[/fimg:2fqzr8sf]
I just love these, great shots!

Fman99
May 15 2018 05:46 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

A Boy Named Seo wrote:
I am also conflicted as to whether my parenting is any good. My friends brought this gift for my pooch, Willie Nelson, but now I am a person who has put clothes on a dog. #conflicted




Can he play SS?

G-Fafif
May 15 2018 05:58 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

A Boy Named Seo wrote:
I am a person who has put clothes on a dog.


I am a person who attempted dozens of times to put a hat on a cat, yet rarely succeeded. But Bernie did allow it...once.

[fimg=500]http://i65.tinypic.com/2drcbw5.jpg[/fimg]

Centerfield
May 15 2018 06:07 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Edgy MD wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
Centerfield, you've come at one guy this morning as being "stupid and lazy," and another as a "dumbass."

I'm sorry the team has played poorly of late, but please lets try to be cool to one another.


I agree that we should be cool to one another. But "cool" should go beyond "don't use bad words".

Resisting such attacks would be a lovely place to start. It's pretty much all we've ever asked.


Sure. That's fair. But I am asking you, and everyone else, to be cognizant of attacks that come in different forms.

"there's a strong, large, and persistent faction of the Mets fanbase that wishes they were Yankee fans and it's only stubborn pride, opportunity, or tradition that keeps them from making the switch."

"You're stupid. You secretly want to be a Yankee fan. We all know it."


These two convey the same insult. One insult is just wearing fancier clothes.

"I would counter that there are's a large contingent of Mets fans who feel any criticism of the team reveals a secret desire to root for another team. This preposterous idea helps justify their blind devotion to the Mets while willfully refusing to see any flaws."

"No dumbass. We want our organization to have good, smart owners who are committed to winning and don’t engage in fraud."


Same insult. Fancier clothes.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
May 16 2018 03:42 AM
Re: Bad Parenting

I mean, if you want to go WAAAAY macro, recriminations-wise, you probably shouldn't get your kids into sports. Watching 'em, anyway. There are, like, a lot more productive/rewarding pathways towards which you could guide their leisure time.

We went this way, because this is the way we went.

d'Kong76
May 16 2018 03:54 AM
Re: Bad Parenting

Centerfield wrote:
Sure. That's fair. But I am asking you, and everyone else, to be cognizant of attacks that come in different forms.
"there's a strong, large, and persistent faction of the Mets fanbase that wishes they were Yankee fans and it's only stubborn pride, opportunity, or tradition that keeps them from making the switch."

I didn't view this as an attack on anyone here, and I agreed with it because
I believe it to be true. Soon as someone starts flipping the Yankees do this
and the Yankees do that cards I'll always say well go root for the Yankees if
you are in such an envy of the crosstown doings.

Centerfield
May 16 2018 02:03 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

It was an insult directed at me.

Because I complained that are owners are shit people. Then someone else brought up the Steinbrenners, and said they were worse. And I said no, they're not, pointing out the obvious.

But now that makes me a wannabe Yankee fan.

At least my insults are direct and personal, rather than that passive aggressive shit.

41Forever
May 16 2018 02:51 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 16 2018 03:05 PM

I brought up the Steinbrenners. If you're too young to remember M. Donald Grant, then you definitely didn't live through the utter nonsense of the Steinbrenners in the 1970s and early 1980s

I've touched on this before, but as I've gotten older, I see more of the gray, and not just sticking out from under my Mets cap.

I think when we start deciding that people are "shit people," it's as if we're saying they're all bad. I don't agree with everything the owners have done, but I've also lived through far worse. I'll always be grateful that the Wilpons bought the team from the previous group. We've had some amazing periods of success -- maybe more than a bunch of other teams -- and some awful down years. There are far, far worse owners and very few perfect ones.

But hey, I'm a glass half full kind of guy. I try to look for the good. We kicked some butt last night.

I do like the pet photos. My cat, Tug, won't wear anything cool.

d'Kong76
May 16 2018 03:01 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Centerfield wrote:
It was an insult directed at me.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I respectfully have to disagree.

Centerfield
May 16 2018 03:14 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

41Forever wrote:
I brought up the Steinbrenners. If you're too young to remember M. Donald Grant, then you definitely didn't live through the utter nonsense of the Steinbrenners in the 1970s and early 1980s

I've touched on this before, but as I've gotten older, I see more of the gray, and not just sticking out from under my Mets cap.

I think when we start deciding that people are "shit people," it's as if we're saying they're all bad. I don't agree with everything the owners have done, but I've also lived through far worse. I'll always be grateful that the Wilpons bought the team from the previous group. We've had some amazing periods of success -- maybe more than a bunch of other teams -- and some awful down years. There are far, far worse owners and very few perfect ones.

But hey, I'm a glass half full kind of guy. I try to look for the good. We kicked some butt last night.

I do like the pet photos. My cat, Tug, won't wear anything cool.


I get that it's a tough call between the two.

On the one hand, you have Fred and Jeff Wilpon who fail to spend like a big market team, throw tantrums when others do, meddle in medical decisions, alienate beloved former players, criticize a female employee for getting pregnant out of wedlock, fire her, and eventually settle with her when she brings a lawsuit, criticize their own players in a New Yorker article, build a ballpark in homage to the ballpark of another team, name their rotunda after a great player from that other team, take part in the biggest Ponzi scheme in history, get sued as a result of it, negotiate a secret loan from their buddy the Commissioner, and take out personal loans against the franchise, crippling the on-field product for the foreseeable future.

And on the other hand, Hal Steinbrenner is George's son.

I mean. How do you choose?

d'Kong76
May 16 2018 04:06 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

41Forever wrote:
I'll always be grateful that the Wilpons bought the team from the previous group.

My brain just exploded; now if you'll excuse me, I have quite a mess here
to attend to...

Benjamin Grimm
May 16 2018 05:06 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

I know. It's not like the Mets were on the verge of folding or relocating. If the Doubleday-Wilpon team hadn't bought the Mets, someone else would have. And we might have been better off under Robert Abplanalp. (Anyone else remember that name?)

41Forever
May 16 2018 05:09 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

d'Kong76 wrote:
41Forever wrote:
I'll always be grateful that the Wilpons bought the team from the previous group.

My brain just exploded; now if you'll excuse me, I have quite a mess here
to attend to...


Hey, M. Donald Grant scarred my childhood. I'm not over it yet.

Centerfield
May 16 2018 05:30 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Wasn't he a minority owner who had already been fired as team president by then?

My pre-'83 Mets history stinks. But that's what I understood.

Really this problem started when Joan Payson failed to raise her children as avid Mets fans. Bad parenting.

batmagadanleadoff
May 16 2018 05:46 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Oh! So now eff Wilpon is getting the undeserved credit of saving the Mets from the de Roulets and M. Donald Grant? He had a tiny ONE percent stake in the Mets as a courtesy favor from Nelson Doubleday when the Doubleday Group bought the Mets in 1980 ferchrissakes. You think Doubleday was so strapped for cash that he needed eff's 1% to complete the sale? It was eff Wilpon who didn't have the money for a larger stake in 1980 and in fact, probably never had the money when he took over the team years later, cutthroatting his way to full ownership and screwing Doubleday, the man that gave Wilpon access, relying instead on bogus exaggerated financial statements based on non existent Madoff gains-- the investment vehicle that Wilpon absolutely knew or had to know was a scam. He knowingly invested in humanity's biggest scam and Steinbrenner's worse because he fired his fucking managers? (Firing his fucking managers all the way to the World Series every fucking year while the Mets played Funiculi Funicula with Tom Hausman). Steinbrenner got Reggie Fucking Jackson and we got Tom Hausman.

G-Fafif
May 16 2018 05:57 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
He had a tiny ONE percent stake in the Mets


Five percent, I believe.

It took several decades for my goodwill toward Mets owners for simply not being deRoulet (or Steinbrenner) to completely wear away, so I understand the impulse toward vestigial gratitude. It may not be operative at this stage of the franchise's development, but I get it in a vacuum.

Edgy MD
May 16 2018 06:00 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

The case against Steinbrenner is certainly not limited to the fact that he impulsively fired his managers. But if you like him, you like him.

batmagadanleadoff
May 16 2018 06:06 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

G-Fafif wrote:
batmagadanleadoff wrote:
He had a tiny ONE percent stake in the Mets


Five percent, I believe.

It took several decades for my goodwill toward Mets owners for simply not being deRoulet (or Steinbrenner) to completely wear away, so I understand the impulse toward vestigial gratitude. It may not be operative at this stage of the franchise's development, but I get it in a vacuum.


I thought so. But I googled a few pieces to write that post and they said one percent. Actually, I thought it was closer to 10%.

batmagadanleadoff
May 16 2018 06:08 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Edgy MD wrote:
The case against Steinbrenner is certainly not limited to the fact that he impulsively not that he fired his managers. But if you like him, you like him.


Agree. I was being customarily and stylistically snarky. But Madoff. Likely knowingly. Top that.

batmagadanleadoff
May 16 2018 06:12 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Steinbrenner was an asshole whose teams made the playoffs. Wilpon's a douchebag whose teams usually never make the playoffs. The douchebaggy character flaws cancel each other out and whaddya got left? Reggie and Catfish and Winfield against Michael Cuddyer and Jason Vargas.

d'Kong76
May 16 2018 06:16 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Edgy MD wrote:
The case against Steinbrenner is certainly not limited to the fact that he impulsively fired his managers.

I think of Steiney and I think of the pussy grabber in the WH.

Edgy MD
May 16 2018 06:36 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

You're hardly alone. The president himself has called Steinbrenner his best friend.

[fimg=500:2m8rst26]https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/images/1998-George-Steinbrenner-wife-Joan-Donald-Trump-05936993.jpg[/fimg:2m8rst26]

Centerfield
May 16 2018 07:04 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Edgy MD wrote:
You're hardly alone. The president himself has called Steinbrenner his best friend.

[fimg=500]https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/images/1998-George-Steinbrenner-wife-Joan-Donald-Trump-05936993.jpg[/fimg]


If there was a Mt. Rushmore of detestable, I feel like those two would be the first two heads.

In fact, I'm struggling to think of two more that are comparable.

Centerfield
May 16 2018 07:07 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Back to the larger point, the Mets owners are shit people. Just because there may have been other shit owners doesn't change that.

seawolf17
May 16 2018 07:08 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Centerfield wrote:
Back to the larger point, the Mets owners are shit people. Just because there may have been other shit owners doesn't change that.

True.

cooby
May 16 2018 07:09 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Centerfield wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
You're hardly alone. The president himself has called Steinbrenner his best friend.

[fimg=500]https://cdn-s3.si.com/s3fs-public/images/1998-George-Steinbrenner-wife-Joan-Donald-Trump-05936993.jpg[/fimg]


If there was a Mt. Rushmore of detestable, I feel like those two would be the first two heads.

In fact, I'm struggling to think of two more that are comparable.



Please, put it somewhere even more remote than South Dakota

Ceetar
May 16 2018 08:10 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
The case against Steinbrenner is certainly not limited to the fact that he impulsively not that he fired his managers. But if you like him, you like him.


Agree. I was being customarily and stylistically snarky. But Madoff. Likely knowingly. Top that.


If only Steinbrenner had cared enough about winning to do whatever it took to make a few extra bucks for years. It's impossible to know because these are all private finances, but maybe Mike Piazza doesn't happen without Madoff.

batmagadanleadoff
May 16 2018 08:23 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

Ceetar wrote:
batmagadanleadoff wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
The case against Steinbrenner is certainly not limited to the fact that he impulsively not that he fired his managers. But if you like him, you like him.


Agree. I was being customarily and stylistically snarky. But Madoff. Likely knowingly. Top that.


If only Steinbrenner had cared enough about winning to do whatever it took to make a few extra bucks for years. It's impossible to know because these are all private finances, but maybe Mike Piazza doesn't happen without Madoff.


If you can justify investing with Madoff knowing it was a scam all along because it yielded Piazza, then where do you get off panning anything Steinbrenner ever did?

Ceetar
May 16 2018 08:27 PM
Re: Bad Parenting

I'm really doing neither, I think they are/were both out of touch old white men that cared primarily about status and profit. Like many rich folk, their various successes have a lot to do with already being rich, luck, and circumstance.