Master Index of Archived Threads
So Now What?
Centerfield May 14 2018 02:03 PM |
We are six weeks into the season, and we're pretty bad. A game over .500, but we have a negative run differential. The offense is non-existent. One of the worst in all of baseball. The pitching has been inconsistent, good at times, bad at times, resulting in an ERA right around league average. If things continue like this, we'll soon fall out of the race and likely end up with a losing record.
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MFS62 May 14 2018 02:19 PM Re: So Now What? |
Bring in a Shaman to remove the curse put on the team when they built Citi Field on a Native American Burial Grounds.
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Benjamin Grimm May 14 2018 02:33 PM Re: So Now What? |
Did the Native American spirits not have an objection to the Shea Stadium parking lot?
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Ceetar May 14 2018 02:50 PM Re: So Now What? |
Plawecki coming back will help. As will Frazier, who was very good. Let's hope for no set backs.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket May 14 2018 03:17 PM Re: So Now What? |
If you want to be optimistic there's more guys expected to improve than regress from here on in, and I'm including Rosario, whose suckiness is real but is magnified by the others' struggles. They addressed the monthlong weakness of the catching situation already and the return of Plawecki could help that along further.
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Edgy MD May 14 2018 03:24 PM Re: So Now What? |
And commit to an on-basing (and even small-ball) strategy to offset the feast-or-famine nature of a power-tool offense.
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A Boy Named Seo May 14 2018 03:46 PM Re: So Now What? |
Maybe we have to realize that as constructed, we're not championship caliber and should think hard about blowing it up. Certainty: Ownership is not going to pump Red Sox-level payroll into this team, and maybe they shouldn't. I think we have 1-2 years of peak deGrom left and he'd be the guy I would entertain trading to loot the top 2 or 3 guys from another team's system, like the White Sox did for Chris Sale, getting Yoan Moncada and Michael Kopech and some other dudes. I love deGrom, but if we can't get over with him, we're prob not going to get over with him when he starts to decline, and if we could get a guy like Walker Buehler with a pre-hype Clay Bellinger for deGrom, a mediocre team like the Mets that wants to build a long-term winner should prob do a trade like that. Move Yo to a contender and you could land another nice, young piece. Trade Bruce again at the deadline (and Frazier and whatever reliever is pitching well) and try to get a bunch of middling dudes and hope 1 or 2 of em stick. Trade Familia. Trade Cabrera. Trade Dom Smith! Trade em all!
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John Cougar Lunchbucket May 14 2018 03:49 PM Re: So Now What? |
I like it, a little, but it's too early to make that call as the division is winnable so far, and the Mets to my knowledge have never really committed so hard to a plan like that.
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Ceetar May 14 2018 03:54 PM Re: So Now What? |
That's because it's a bad plan, that could end up meaning 'just suck' for years and years. There's no guarantee prospects turn into a good core. Hell, if Smith and Rosario were as good as once projected we'd be running away with this thing.
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batmagadanleadoff May 14 2018 03:59 PM Re: So Now What? |
Astros 2.0? Intelligent rebuild? This organization is so dogshit dumb, it'll probably sign David Wright all over again when his current contract expires. Eff Wilpon took over in the early 90s and within two or three years, squandered away every last ounce of the Mets good will; it's been a Yankee town ever since. And it's only gotten worse because now, Run For the Hills Wilpon gets to make big decisions as well.
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A Boy Named Seo May 14 2018 05:06 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Yeah we could suck, or we could be like we've been the last 10 or 20 years, decidedly mediocre with winning seasons about half the time and a few playoff appearances that didn't quite work out. The nuke was great for the Astros and the White Sox are still shitty, but have accumulated a mass of elite prospects that they'll control for a long time. I think it's ballsy to recognize you're not as good as you wish you were and realistic to acknowledge that $100M of immediate spending is not on the horizon. Then when it comes time to spending, an acquisition like Verlander on the Astros makes so much more sense than say, Arrieta on this year's Mets team does.
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Centerfield May 14 2018 05:37 PM Re: So Now What? |
The thought of trading away deGrom or Syndergaard or Conforto is painful right? But yeah, I think you have to commit to one or another. Either go big and spend money and be like the Red Sox/Yankees/Dodgers, or embrace the small market mentality and go the nuclear route.
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41Forever May 14 2018 05:50 PM Re: So Now What? |
I'm not willing to concede that this isn't a championship caliber team. We might not be as good as when we were 12-1, but we're not as bad as we were during this recent stretch.
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A Boy Named Seo May 14 2018 05:56 PM Re: So Now What? |
I don't think we're necessarily at that point. This team will prob, hopefully get hot one more good time, and could win 83-86 games. Maybe catch a wild card. Maybe get lucky from there. I don't think they're currently built for sustained greatness (or very goodness) though.
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dgwphotography May 14 2018 05:58 PM Re: So Now What? |
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This is what the Wilponzis want their fans to think. Be just good enough, on the cheap, for some hope. They will never build a sustainable winning team as long as they own the Mets
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d'Kong76 May 14 2018 06:25 PM Re: So Now What? |
[fimg=80]https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/uploaded/slockrem/20160127_IMG_20160127_192201.jpg[/fimg][fimg=80]https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/uploaded/slockrem/20160127_IMG_20160127_192201.jpg[/fimg]
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G-Fafif May 14 2018 06:26 PM Re: So Now What? |
Go 1-0 tomorrow night, that's what.
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Lefty Specialist May 14 2018 07:20 PM Re: So Now What? |
The Mets half-ass it.
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Edgy MD May 14 2018 07:30 PM Re: So Now What? |
If Philadelphia is some sort of model of what the Mets should be doing, Ty Kelly has gotten more playing time, while playing worse, with the Phils.
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Lefty Specialist May 14 2018 07:58 PM Re: So Now What? |
Well, the problem is 2009-2014 and 2017 with an end date to be determined.
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Benjamin Grimm May 14 2018 08:08 PM Re: So Now What? |
To me, calling for a complete teardown seems overly masochistic. A smart team (yeah, I know) should be able to improve without taking that big backwards step. Nurture your strengths and get the best players available to fill your weaknesses.
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Ceetar May 14 2018 08:13 PM Re: So Now What? |
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2009 and 2010 were the last ditch efforts to keep the last window open after the injuries started caving it in. they drafted deGrom in 2010 and fleeced the Giants for Wheeler in 2011. in 2011 they signed Nimmo. in 2012 they fleeced the Blue Jays for Syndergaard and d'Arnaud and drafted Plawecki. They extended the contract of their Hall of Fame caliber 3Bman. They signed Rosario They drafted Conforto in 2014. They extended Lagares. So really that period you're talking about IS the rebuild. They made the playoffs in 2015 and 2016, and were extremely injuried in 2017. They did a lot last offseason, despite it maybe not being exactly what some people think was best, to make this part of the 2015+ window and not the end of it. And it shouldn't be! Conforto, deGrom, Thor, Plawecki, Frazier, Rosario, Smith, Cespedes are all still here. they're all good pieces, and it's unlikely all the rest of them will suddenly be worthless. We're in the damn window, let's stop pretending they're not good enough just because we're in the middle of a rough patch.
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Frayed Knot May 14 2018 08:27 PM Re: So Now What? |
Also, the "one of the worst offenses in all of baseball" thing is exaggerated by the fact that we're tied for second fewest games played so far this season (and the Saturday rain plus upcoming Monday/Thursday
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A Boy Named Seo May 14 2018 08:47 PM Re: So Now What? |
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I think you could argue that drafting Nimmo was more of a fuck up, not a clever part of a rebuild. They passed on Jose Fernandez to draft a guy who didn't even play formal baseball in high school. Wheeler has worked well in our favor so far, but I wouldn't call it a fleecing. Good trade, though. I don't know that extending Lagares should be viewed as necessarily a positive move either. I think and hope Conforto will be a great pick. deGrom genius. Syndergaard = fleecing. We suck. Blow it up. #TrustTheProcess. Sell the Team NOW!!!!
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Edgy MD May 14 2018 08:57 PM Re: So Now What? |
It may have been a fuckup. But the point is the strategic intent.
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Ceetar May 14 2018 08:57 PM Re: So Now What? |
You can't knock the process in Nimmo and ignore his major league value and also not call the Wheeler acquisition/process a fleecing. They got a talented arm for literally nothing but some sentimental AB.
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A Boy Named Seo May 14 2018 09:05 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Of all the things the Marlins and their fans regret about Jose Fernandez, I bet drafting him is not one of them.
I'm not knocking the process on Nimmo, but I do think the direction of the franchise might have been better served (in hindsight of course) by drafting someone else who was more of a known quantity. I hope Nimmo shuts me up and gets 2500 hits and becomes Wyoming's most famous citizen while leading the Mets to a bunch of trophies. But Jose Fernandez would've been pretty nice #4 starter in the 2015 World Series, too. All I'm sayin.
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Edgy MD May 14 2018 09:17 PM Re: So Now What? |
Well, I certainly don't regret the team drafting Nimmo. If anything, I lament his marginalization.
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Centerfield May 14 2018 09:31 PM Re: So Now What? |
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20th in runs per game. 23rd in BA 20th in OBP. 28th in slugging 27th in team OPS. 24th in Stolen Bases 25th in HR's. Can you win with a terrible offense? Sure. If your team has amazing pitching. But if your pitching is league average and your offense is well below average, you sir, are looking at a losing season.
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Centerfield May 14 2018 09:51 PM Re: So Now What? |
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I think we are getting caught up in some minutia here. This is the point and this is the inescapable reality of being a Mets fan since 2009. Until 2015, one could argue that the approach was one of rebuilding. (Even if they never committed to it the way the Astros did.) What's become evident the last few years is that the team will ever return to its pre-Madoff spending days.
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41Forever May 15 2018 12:06 AM Re: So Now What? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 15 2018 02:57 PM |
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I think you guys get too hung up on payroll. Astros last year were 18th, and are 11th this year. Tigers have been a top-5 payroll team since 2012. We went to the World Series with the 21st highest payroll. The Mets have been to the playoffs twice in the last three seasons. Last year's injuries were a fluke. We were in first place this season until about a week ago. The division is wide open. This is a good season to be Mets fan.
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Centerfield May 15 2018 01:00 PM Re: So Now What? |
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This post is so stupid and lazy. People here take the time to think through their ideas before posting. When you write something this lazy you're going to piss people off. You talk about the Wilpons being tone deaf? Holy crap. No one here ever said you need a high payroll to win. No one here ever said that high payrolls guarantee winning. So stop citing to facts that refute theories that are not offered. If you read this thread, you'd see that the Astros approach was raised several times as an effective way to win. Blow it up. Lose, rebuild, then go for it. It is specifically cited as an effective method for small market teams. The downside is that you get peaks and valleys. Years of awful baseball followed by a brief period of contention, but if done right, you at least get a small window of greatness. Like Houston or Kansas City. The other way is to go big market. Develop talent and bolster it with high priced talent. If done correctly, it can lead to long periods of sustained success. Like the Yankees, or Red Sox, or Dodgers, or Cubs etc. If you do either method poorly, you will lose, regardless of your payroll. But hey, look, another post for you to gloss over. Let's start the stopwatch on the next "But payroll doesn't guarantee winning" post.
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Rockin' Doc May 15 2018 01:48 PM Re: So Now What? |
I agree with CF, it isn't necessarily the amount of money spent on the player payroll, but rather the wisdom with which that money is invested. The Mets haven't spent their money wisely. They have generally spent their money on slow, veteran sluggers that are past their prime. The team needs an infusion of young talent that has speed and can get on base. Most importantly, the Mets need to add players that are in their prime (or whose best years are likely to be ahead of them) not prior stars whose best years are past.
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Ceetar May 15 2018 01:53 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Like Todd Frazier and Cespedes and Lagares? The only guy who is old and past his prime (one year past) is Gonzalez, who's actually been somewhat fine and unlucky. Jason Vargas and Jay Bruce too, but the Mets have some depth there and it's not like they're relying on these guys to carry the team.
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MFS62 May 15 2018 02:01 PM Re: So Now What? |
Start rebuilding the pipeline as well as making moves at the major league level.
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Edgy MD May 15 2018 02:20 PM Re: So Now What? |
Seven of the Mets' first eight picks last year were college players, from winning programs (Stanford, Oregon, Oklahoma State) too.
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MFS62 May 15 2018 02:43 PM Re: So Now What? |
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I originally had specified position players, but it must have been accidentally deleted when I made some other edits. From the scouting thread about Bart:
Later
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Centerfield May 15 2018 05:46 PM Re: So Now What? |
To illustrate what I mean, I feel like this is more or less a successful rebuild:
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seawolf17 May 15 2018 05:56 PM Re: So Now What? |
I think we were all kind of hoping that we were somewhere in Step IV and II right now. Yes, there are older pieces, but the rotation is/was young and exciting, there were young guys all up and down the lineup (Rosario, Nimmo, Dom, Conforto) who had potential to break out, stud in the middle (Yo), and complementary pieces around them (Frazier, Lagares, Cabrera).
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Benjamin Grimm May 15 2018 06:11 PM Re: So Now What? |
I don't want the Mets to ever be in Step One. I don't think it's necessary. They should be always be doing Steps Two and Three simultaneously, like the Braves did so successfully in the 1990s.
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Centerfield May 15 2018 06:20 PM Re: So Now What? |
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I would love to always be in Steps 2 and 3 too. The problem with that model is that it requires the club to spend money. During the 1990's, Atlanta consistently had one of the top payrolls in baseball. I'm resigned to the fact that they won't spend like that again. I know Step 1 sucks, but I'd be all for if it meant we got a Step 3. I don't even remember the last time I felt like we were in Step 3.
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A Boy Named Seo May 15 2018 06:27 PM Re: So Now What? |
I think what CF came up with is about right, although drafting a Bryce Harper or Steven Strasburg depends a lot on how bad you tank and how high your picks are, and signing a Ronald Acuña or Vlad Jr. depends on how committed the team is to dumping resources (human and financial) into international scouting. And luck! Lots of luck! The Astros swung and missed on Mark Appel (along with every other draft prognosticator) but they struck gold with George Springer, Carlos Correa and Alex Bregman with more studs waiting in the wings. Good fortune, for sure, but they had a plan and were committed to it and good things happened. I'm sure if they only got 1 ring out of this reboot, they'd be disappointed given the collection of talent, but they still got a ring out it.
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41Forever May 15 2018 06:33 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Lest I get called stupid and lazy again, but one hand you say this:
Then this:
I think they were in step three in 2015, with the stud pitchers coming of age and adding Cespedes late in the season. I think we could say the same about 2016, adding Neil Walker prior to the season. Last season everything that could go wrong did go wrong. I think things are better now. They'll come out of this funk. Maybe I'm a Pollyanna, but I'm enjoying this season. It also seemed like a weak-ish free agent class last year. Let's give them a chance in this upcoming year.
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Centerfield May 15 2018 06:47 PM Re: So Now What? |
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If you have a top payroll, you can try to win every year like the teams I mention. If you don't, and you're a small market team, the best way to go for a championship is to do a nuclear rebuild. The steps I mention above are the general steps of a successful nuclear rebuild. There are teams that spend a lot of money but fail. Winning is hard. There are teams that try a nuclear rebuild but fail. Winning is hard. In my opinion, if you do neither of the two (don't spend money, never rebuild) you will forever be in no-man's land, where you win around 75-85 games year after year. You will never have any sustained success, and you only win once in a blue moon when everything happens to break the right way.
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seawolf17 May 15 2018 06:50 PM Re: So Now What? |
The case is made, though, and it makes some reasonable semblance of sense, that "New York fans need to have a winner." A Mets team that wins 60 games a year for three or four seasons doesn't sell season tickets, whereas "THIS MIGHT BE THE YEAR" does, at least a little bit.
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Benjamin Grimm May 15 2018 06:52 PM Re: So Now What? |
I would never advocate for the Mets to do the tear-down thing. I would have them, each year, say where are our weaknesses and how can we best address them? And the option to spend big on a free agent or two has to be on the table.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket May 15 2018 06:58 PM Re: So Now What? |
I'm dubious of the tear down and I think fans badly underestimate their patience for such a thing, and I also think they more or less did a stealth one between 09-2015 and its results illustrate the trickiness of pulling it off.
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Centerfield May 15 2018 07:11 PM Re: So Now What? |
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So spend more? Or spend more wisely? (Forego the Fraziers, Vargases and Bruces and go for one big ticket FA?) I mean, I'd be on board with what you propose. Sure as hell beats a tear down. But do you think the Wilpons can afford this?
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Benjamin Grimm May 15 2018 07:15 PM Re: So Now What? |
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I don't know if the Wilpons can afford it. That, of course, is the rub. But it's the approach that a New York team should take. And if the Wilpons can't do it, then they should sell the team. But that's a whole 'nother topic.
Maybe sign a Frazier and/or a Gonzalez (but skip Vargas and Bruce) and also go for a big ticket guy. Some bargains are okay, but as I said, they're leaning too heavily in that direction.
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batmagadanleadoff May 15 2018 07:27 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Lotsa folks think the teardown method is a no-brainer but the Cubs and 'Stros, given their remarkable and unlikely success with it, probably set a terrible example --- because everything has to pan out which means you need skill and off the charts luck. Especially in the draft. High draft position. Available phenoms. And the phenom picks gotta pan out even though more often than not, they don't pan out. And I don't wanna sound like a broken record on this point, but given that the Mets signed Wright in 2012, they're never gonna teardown. The Wright signing set this team back immeasurably. First there was the stud prospect Sandy could've presumably flipped Wright for. Then the way Wright held 3B in limbo these last years as the Mets hoped for Wright's return to all star form -- and this is 3B, on the soft end of the defensive spectrum, where in today's game, a big market team should be getting all star if not MVP offense from.
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seawolf17 May 15 2018 07:39 PM Re: So Now What? |
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This is (partially) wrong. There's no way they would have flipped Wright for prospects. None whatsoever. He was coming off a season where he finished sixth in the MVP voting, and he *was* the franchise at that point. Only once had he played in less than 144 games in a season. Any team would offer that deal 99 times out of 100.
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batmagadanleadoff May 15 2018 07:45 PM Re: So Now What? |
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What are you saying: that the Mets should've gotten better than prospect(s) or that they were right to keep Wright?
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Centerfield May 15 2018 07:46 PM Re: So Now What? |
The teardown method is risky, and yes, it's unlikely but I feel like it's really the only way for a small market club to compete.
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Nymr83 May 15 2018 07:49 PM Re: So Now What? |
Bashing the Wright deal makes no fucking sense. He was a healthy all star caliber player, this was EXACTLY the type of contract the Wilpon Haters would bash the Mets for NOT handing out. You cant (credibly) just bash the result that was unforeseeable.
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Nymr83 May 15 2018 07:52 PM Re: So Now What? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 15 2018 07:52 PM |
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I would say the Cubs followed the tear down method too to get the top prospects only available at the top of the draft, but they followed that up with spending. Call it the "Big Market Tear Down" - Philly is trying to do the same.
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d'Kong76 May 15 2018 07:52 PM Re: So Now What? |
I suppose one could Wilpon-bash for not reinvesting the insurance money
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batmagadanleadoff May 15 2018 07:52 PM Re: So Now What? |
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There's a good reason for this. Several reliable recent studies were conducted, including by MLB itself. They all show that the more money a team in today's game spends, the more it wins and the more it draws in revenues. Even when their spending exceeds the luxury tax. That a team could also win by spending less is beside the point and as Alfred Hitchcock would say, a big MacGuffin.
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Nymr83 May 15 2018 07:53 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Oh 1000% But that is not an indictment of the original deal
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d'Kong76 May 15 2018 07:55 PM Re: So Now What? |
Just throwing it out there, not specifically responding to anything. Who
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batmagadanleadoff May 15 2018 07:56 PM Re: So Now What? |
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They were four or five years away from contending in 2012, 2015 notwithstanding. The team was putrid, even with the NL's Cy Young pitcher (who wouldn't be returning). Degrom was an infielder. And Wright was in his 30s, past his prime and already with an injury history. This was a dumb signing. A chickenshit signing by a chickenshit ownership group.
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Edgy MD May 15 2018 08:16 PM Re: So Now What? |
But almost none of that is true.
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batmagadanleadoff May 15 2018 08:27 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Oh, give me a break already with 2016. In a 15 team league, the Mets had a better record than just 10 of those teams. That's not bad, but don't make it out like it's some historical finish that's supposed to be one of the proudest and most memorable seasons in Mets history. They played in the one game elimination game in a watered down playoff system. Once in a blue moon, the Wilpons spend like a big market team, and then they lord that season over us to justify all those other years when they spend like the Mets play in Kalamazoo. And that's what you do with 2016.
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Ceetar May 15 2018 08:39 PM Re: So Now What? |
They got outpitched in the play-in game, big deal. They should've started Duda, but whatever. more watered down than it was in years past but still deserved.
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Frayed Knot May 15 2018 09:06 PM Re: So Now What? |
During the stretch where Houston had the top pick three years in a row, they actually wound up whiffing on two: Carlos Correa (2012), Mark Appel (2013), Brady Aiken (2014)
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John Cougar Lunchbucket May 15 2018 09:25 PM Re: So Now What? |
Wright obviously was a bad outcome on the results and would be a difficult decision to make disapassionately but once in a while you get those guys who make it hard. I think everyone understood Wright was getting paid for being such a great representative of the club and an important figure in the history of the team and now and again if you're lucky you have to make a call like that.
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Centerfield May 15 2018 10:07 PM Re: So Now What? |
Right. I was on board with the Wright extension as well. The rebuild was done by 2015, and Wright was still productive even then. If he hadn't had the SS, he would have been productive for a few years after even. Plus at that point I had no idea that the Mets never intended to spend like they had in the past.
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batmagadanleadoff May 15 2018 10:29 PM Re: So Now What? |
It wasn't necessary to foresee Wright's terrible injuries to come. The Mets were dreadful when Wright was re-signed. So bad that if Wright had a Ruthian MVP season in 2013, the Mets wouldve still lost more than half their games.
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cooby May 15 2018 11:38 PM Re: So Now What? |
It’s time to drop our collective sentimentalities (Wright, 95% of the pitching staff) Nimmo, Jay Bruce (has any man ever taken off so damn much paternity time?) (I dropped him from my fantasy team, the asshole), Conforto, 95% of the pitching staff (oh I mentioned that? I mean EVERYONE except DeGrom and Thor including EVERY SINGLE effing bullpen pitcher.)
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Edgy MD May 16 2018 02:10 AM Re: So Now What? |
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It was like two games.
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d'Kong76 May 16 2018 02:16 AM Re: So Now What? |
cooby be like gettin' all in our faces
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Frayed Knot May 16 2018 02:47 AM Re: So Now What? |
Paternity leave is three days with (to my knowledge anyway) no variations in either direction.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 16 2018 03:36 AM Re: So Now What? |
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It would have been bold. The Cards more or less did it with Pujols. The Wilpons also would have been crucified had they not made the offer. I suspect that, deep down, "risk avoidance"-- PR-wise, rather than actual, onfield risk avoidance-- probably had a decent amount to do with the decision.
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batmagadanleadoff May 16 2018 04:38 AM Re: So Now What? |
I always thought that the Wright re-signing was mostly to avoid the inevitable tabloid PR shitstorm that would follow otherwise. My own theory is that Sandy, left to his own devices, would have flipped Wright for younger talent but for the Wilpons meddling.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket May 16 2018 04:41 AM Re: So Now What? |
that's entirely possible and probably true at some level. otoh, Wright was a good player and no harm in having too many of those.
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cooby May 16 2018 12:29 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Ah I’m just frustrated. I can’t watch and it makes Me cranky. And if Bruce was only off for two games than yahoo fantasy is the one I should be mad at because I swear they listed him as inactive for five days
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Lefty Specialist May 16 2018 12:44 PM Re: So Now What? |
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This. They'd let Reyes walk after 2011 and a batting title. To let Wright walk, the Golden Boy face of the franchise who'd been a Met fan since he was a little kid watching Tides games in Norfolk, would have been a public relations disaster. It would have been akin to trading Tom Seaver in his prime, and we all know how that worked out. This was risk avoidance, pure and simple.
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seawolf17 May 16 2018 01:21 PM Re: So Now What? |
I'm sort of fascinated by the new cussin' Cooby. Good times.
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Ceetar May 16 2018 01:26 PM Re: So Now What? |
If Wright doesn't get/have Stenosis he's a fucking hall of famer. It was absolutely the right move, he by all logical accounts had years and years left of high, perhaps great, production, especially given that his profile fits so well into the juiced ball era. The guy would've hit 40 home runs in 2016.
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seawolf17 May 16 2018 02:07 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Absolutely.
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Centerfield May 16 2018 09:07 PM Re: So Now What? |
I think it's time to pull Wheeler from the rotation. Insert either Lugo or Gsellman.
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Fman99 May 17 2018 01:27 AM Re: So Now What? |
Cooby is jacked up. Good. I admire the enthusiasm.
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d'Kong76 May 17 2018 01:45 AM Re: So Now What? |
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Lol, I just saw this. We're all cranky. The Mets, the prez and the overall general forum divisiveness? I hate him and she hates me. You're a dick, I'm a dick, everyone's a dick dick. And don't even start on cunt, cunts or cunt's! I don't care about the fantasy stuff. I can't and don't gamble on baseball, it's in my contract.
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Benjamin Grimm May 18 2018 01:02 PM Re: So Now What? |
This is about as nauseating a cover as I've ever seen.
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Ceetar May 18 2018 01:10 PM Re: So Now What? |
Harper is a troll and a bad writer. You literally couldn't do less analysis and end up with a stupider click-baity post. Please no one link to it.
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Edgy MD May 18 2018 01:23 PM Re: So Now What? |
Daily News trollling Met fans on behalf of the Yankees. Nothing new.
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A Boy Named Seo May 18 2018 04:44 PM Re: So Now What? |
Sorry, guys, I clicked it. Harper gets his paycheck this week. Of course it's ridiculous, but 3 elite prospects is just the kind of haul for deGrom I think the Mets should think about if they continue to be shitty. Just not, you know, them.
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41Forever May 18 2018 05:23 PM Re: So Now What? |
LOL Harper. He should wait until we actually have a losing record before we start talking about trading anyone.
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Benjamin Grimm May 18 2018 05:26 PM Re: So Now What? |
So he was about two days early?
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metirish May 18 2018 05:31 PM Re: So Now What? |
I am starting to tune out with the Mets, next month of games crucial for me to stick for the season.
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Benjamin Grimm May 18 2018 05:41 PM Re: So Now What? |
Me too. I've taken a step or two back as well. I should have made more of an effort to get to Citi Field in April. I haven't been there since 2016. I got discouraged too early in the 2017 season. It looked for a while like that wouldn't happen (at least not very quickly) in 2018 but things are looking a lot less promising.
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Edgy MD May 18 2018 05:52 PM Re: So Now What? |
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YGB, man. It's the weekend, and we've got an undefeated guy on the mound who is second in the league in ERA.
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Benjamin Grimm May 18 2018 05:54 PM Re: So Now What? |
True. Hopefully the Mets will use their three hits wisely and score a couple of runs.
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41Forever May 18 2018 05:57 PM Re: So Now What? |
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I can't believe some of you guys are talking about bailing because they've had a rough stretch. The 12-1 stretch should show what the team is capable of. Nothing but a rough stretch. Some orange barrels on the road to a vacation.
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Chad Ochoseis May 19 2018 01:49 AM Re: So Now What? |
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SIX, BABY, SIX!!!
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Centerfield May 19 2018 09:58 AM Re: So Now What? |
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There are a couple ways to look at this team. The team opened with a 12 game period where they went 11-1. They then followed with an 18 game period where they went 10-18. Overall they are 21-19. One could say they are a good team that hit a rough patch, like 41 says above. This might well be true since the story of the 2018 Mets has yet to be written. But it’s the least likely to be true. It’s hard to buy this logic when the “rough patch” is 50% longer than the stretch that “shows what the team is capable of”. Another way to look at it is to say they are a bad team that had a 12 game lucky streak. This is also not the best answer, but at least better than the prior take. As mentioned above, the bad streak is much longer than the good streak. Also all of the stats suggest this team is more bad than good. The best take is to look at all 40 games and say that this is a mediocre team, capable of good streaks and bad, but ultimately ending up mediocre in the long run. The slightly over .500 record is consistent with nearly all projections. The stats project to a team slightly below .500, but it’s early and you figure there is some room to shift those numbers a bit. Now, I know that this is painting with a broad brush and a lot of preconceived notions but I just can’t help but feel that 41’s take is such a typical Republican point of view. Come in with the notion you want to believe and stick to it. Even when logic and data suggest otherwise. Focus on numbers that support your thinking, even if those numbers are belied by better, more exhaustive information. Mix in a hint of inaccuracy (the team was never 12-1). Remember to be judgmental (“I can’t believe you guys are talking about bailing”). And you are almost there. Finally, before you leave the house, check if your opinion justifies the behavior of rich white men. Yes? Congratulations! You’re ready to be a Republican!
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Ceetar May 19 2018 12:54 PM Re: So Now What? |
the data that suggests they're a bad team is fraught though.
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Benjamin Grimm May 19 2018 01:55 PM Re: So Now What? |
Look at this....I hadn't realized that the Mets haven't won back-to-back games since their nine-game winning streak came to an end about a month ago.
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Rockin' Doc May 19 2018 03:32 PM Re: So Now What? |
I’m on vacation at the beach and using an IPad (which I find to be a pain) so I’m too lazy to actually look it up, but I don’t think the Mets have won a series since their hot streak came to an end. It’s tough to win a series when you can’t manage to win back to back games. The Mets need to start winning some series. This series with Arizona would be a great time to start.
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Chad Ochoseis May 19 2018 06:24 PM Re: So Now What? |
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In defense of 41F's baseball views, it's true that defending the Mets justifies the behavior of rich white men. But that's also true of defenders of the behaviors of the Yankees, Royals, Indians, Diamondbacks, Red Sox, White Sox, Cubs, and Rumble Ponies, as well as more or less anyone else who has earned money from owning or being in the front office of a professional baseball team. And pessimism is fine, and really the only sane choice if you root for the Mets, but not-bailing is part of the life of being a fan. It's why I ignore football, basketball, and hockey. Rooting for 1 1/2 baseball teams is draining enough. And what a 21-19 record tells us about the Mets is that the Mets are 21-19. The fact that they were extremely fantastic over their first 12 games and rather crappy over the following 28 doesn't provide any extra information on the surface. You could dig a little and maybe see that the competition was different. That was true last year when we started 7-3 by beating up on weak teams, but I don't think it's true this year. We won series against the Nats and Cardinals during the 11-1 stretch, and lost series to the Reds and Padres during the 10-18. You can argue that it's a different Mets team now than it was at the beginning of the season. This is true to some degree. The slide downhill began when we lost both our catchers in two or three days. Catching is subtle. We all know it's one of the two most important non-pitching positions on the field, but I can't tell much difference between "good" and "bad" catchers by watching them. The Mets have been looking better since the Mesoraco trade. Could be the change from Plawecki/D'Arnaud to Lobaton/Nido was creating a bigger hole than we realized. So maybe things start picking up again now. All in all, though, I think the 21-19 record is about what the Mets are right now - a .525 team. Closer to good than bad, and maybe able to go deep into the postseason with some luck, health, and good trades, but not the best team in baseball by a long shot. As far as why the Mets are mediocre, can we tie a rock to the idea that The Yankees Are A Big Market Team That Acts Like One And The Wilpons Are Cheap and toss it into a very deep lake? First, sustained excellence in baseball is nearly impossible. The only teams that have been consistently reasonably competitive over the past fifteen years are the Yankees and Cardinals, and even that's giving the phrase "reasonably competitive" a very broad interpretation. Every other team, including the other Big Market teams (say, the Dodgers, Giants, Red Sox, and Cubs, and maybe throw in the White Sox, A's, and Angels) has had ups and downs, just like the Mets. Second, as far as the Yankees going big and the Mets going small, I call bullshit. The Yankees' payroll is $166.1 million. The Mets' payroll is $150.6 million. Does anyone really think that the difference between the Yankees and the Mets can be explained by $15.5 million? The players signed by the Yankees to multi-year contracts for more than $10M per year are Giancarlo Stanton, Masahiro Tanaka, Jacoby Ellsbury, Brett Gardner, and Aroldis Chapman. That's one new signing, one mediocre signing, one signing that makes Jason Bay look like a smart deal, one aging centerfielder finishing out a middling career, and a very good closer. This isn't why the Yankees win and the Mets don't. The Yankees win because they drafted Luis Severino, Aaron Judge, Dellin Betances, Gary Sanchez, and Gleyber Torres, and because they somehow figured out that Didi Gregorius was good at baseball. Or, at least, that he was good enough to hit pop-up home runs in that joke of a ballpark they play in. The key players the Mets drafted or made early-career trades for are DeGrom, Syndergaard, Flores, Lagares, Conforto, Rosario, D'Arnaud, Plawecki, and Familia. Other than DeGrom and possibly Syndergaard, those guys aren't as good as the players the Yankees drafted, at least not yet. And the Yankees have a deep pool of talented young players in the pipeline. We have two first basemen who maybe possibly might could turn out to be pretty good if we're lucky. It sucks to have to admit it, but the Yankees win because they've been smarter. Or luckier. I'm not sure which. I've spent plenty of time wondering about whether the Mets inability to develop top quality players within the org is due to bad luck or bad skills, and I have absolutely no clue. But I am convinced that the core problem with the org is player development, not some refusal to act like a Big Market Team. And, for what it's worth, I think the Stanton trade/contract takeover was monumentally stupid and arrogant, and may be the beginning of the end of Yankee dominance. Way too much can go wrong at $30M+ per year (for the later years), even for the MFYs. It'll be tragic to those who feel (MFY bandwagoners) and comic to those who think (that's us).
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Benjamin Grimm May 25 2018 05:14 PM Re: So Now What? |
Maybe the Mets can try more Rhame and less Ramos?
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smg58 May 25 2018 05:48 PM Re: So Now What? |
Swarzak's injury and Ramos' inability to pitch two good games in a row made it hard to consider moving Lugo or Gsellman back into the rotation. Every starter has pitched well this week, thankfully, which means the need to consider such a move has diminished at least for now. But Rhame and Sewald have both pitched better than Ramos to this point.
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Rockin' Doc May 26 2018 03:28 AM Re: So Now What? |
The Mets can't move Gsellman and/or Lugo into the rotation, they are the most reliable relievers the team has. Beyond the two of them, the only one I have much faith in is Sewald.
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Edgy MD May 26 2018 07:49 PM Re: So Now What? |
Well, if one of them provides quality starting, they won't be as needed in the pen.
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Rockin' Doc May 26 2018 09:03 PM Re: So Now What? |
With the way most managers, Callaway included, cautiously use starting pitchers (pitch counts & limiting third time through order) there will still be a great deal of bullpen innings. Which with Lugo and/or Gsellman in the rotation, that we likely lead for even more innings for Ramos/Blevins/Robles et al. If Vargas, Wheeler, and Matz can't give the Mets some consistent pitching, then I guess have to pick their poison.
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MFS62 May 27 2018 12:52 AM Re: So Now What? |
Move the franchise to Montreal and apply for an expansion team.
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Centerfield May 28 2018 03:35 AM Re: So Now What? |
Vargas and Wheeler cannot start anymore.
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Gwreck May 28 2018 03:57 AM Re: So Now What? |
Wheeler was actually decent. Occasional untimely homers will happen. He’s also one of our best hitters.
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Centerfield May 28 2018 01:27 PM Re: So Now What? |
Wheeler is terrible. ERA over 5. WHIP around 1.5.
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Rockin' Doc May 29 2018 12:02 AM Re: So Now What? |
Good teams make plays, limit mistakes, and find ways to win. The Mets are not a good team.
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Nymr83 May 29 2018 01:12 AM Re: So Now What? |
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ERA lies, his FIP is not horrible
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seawolf17 May 29 2018 12:28 PM Re: So Now What? |
I think Wheeler still has something there, but I've been done with Vargas since day one.
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Edgy MD May 29 2018 01:06 PM Re: So Now What? |
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[fimg=550]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ab/1e/72/ab1e7216d311a93651362535d760ebff.png[/fimg] I wrote 63 songs this year. They're all about ERA, and I'm going to play every single one of them tonight.
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smg58 May 29 2018 02:54 PM Re: So Now What? |
Wheeler has not been good, but he's only pitched too poorly to give the team a chance twice. Relative to last year, his strikeouts are up while home runs and walks are down. I'm not giving up on him yet.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 30 2018 03:45 AM Re: So Now What? |
We don't have the men. We don't have anywhere near the men.
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batmagadanleadoff May 30 2018 03:51 AM Re: So Now What? |
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Yeah, right. What's likelier to happen is that instead, they'll extend David "Godot" Wright.
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d'Kong76 May 30 2018 03:58 AM Re: So Now What? |
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You also understand considering backing up the truck consideratioins don't start before the summer solstice. They're not gonna start shopping stuff now and doing so in July to teams in need (if the Mets' need be) will garner better stuff. Right? Just nod. I know it'll drive all the spreadsheet guys bonkers, but the Mets are a good half-dozen-game bad-luck losers so far and that's a lot in the cur- rent standings and how we feel about this team.
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batmagadanleadoff May 30 2018 04:07 AM Re: So Now What? |
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The Mets are at .500, true, but they've been outscored 220-239, so Pythagoras sez they should be a coupl'a games under .500. Which means that they've been exceedingly lucky this season, rather than a bad luck team. Me, personally, I happen to agree with what I just finished writing about ol' Pythagoras and luck. I remember scrutinizing the Mets cumulative stats when they were riding high last April, and I couldn't figure out how the hell they were winning so much. The stats didn't justify the results. So take .500 with a grain of salt. Pythagoras sez the Mets should be closer to the last place Marlins than to the top of the division.
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LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr May 30 2018 04:12 AM Re: So Now What? |
They'd been good-luck winners in 8-10 games last month. They're .500 now, their run differential says they should be 24-28.
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Nymr83 May 30 2018 04:31 AM Re: So Now What? |
The Mets had good reason to believe they could strongly improve on last year with just a little health. That hasn't happened. If the Mets dont put up a strong showing (85+ wins) then it is probably time to "blow it up" this off-season. Unless they want to get Machado and some pitching. That's fine too. But standing pat would be terrible.
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d'Kong76 May 30 2018 12:30 PM Re: So Now What? |
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It's still May and I'm sticking with unlucky for a few more weeks. Take away a few dinks, danks and dunks and they're a few games over .500. The numbers are fun, and I get it all much more than I let on but if you watch every pitch of every game those numbers lie so far in 2018. And the BBB is off the charts in 2018 as mentioned in another thread.
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Edgy MD May 30 2018 01:04 PM Re: So Now What? |
Yeah, the upside to blowing multiple games is understanding that, hey, they were in a position to win every tame in this trip, except for the blowout.
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Frayed Knot May 30 2018 01:27 PM Re: So Now What? |
The Mets and Pythagorus don't really match up well this year.
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MFS62 May 30 2018 01:56 PM Re: So Now What? |
"I'd rather be lucky than good" is not a safe position for someone on blood pressure medication.
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Centerfield May 30 2018 01:59 PM Re: So Now What? |
Sure. It's just an estimate. But when it's suggested that the Mets have just been unlucky, the estimate suggests just the opposite.
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Centerfield May 30 2018 02:04 PM Re: So Now What? |
What is BBB?
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Benjamin Grimm May 30 2018 02:11 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Better Business Bureau?
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d'Kong76 May 30 2018 02:14 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Blanche Rickey, right? She was the best!
Bothersome Boneheaded Blunders, it was brought up in the 'what bothers me' thread. BP uses bothersome, BR uses bewildering... they're pretty much interchangeable.
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batmagadanleadoff May 30 2018 03:27 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Going by memory here, but it wasn't so much blowouts as incredibly timely hitting. Maximum gains from big hits. Disproportionately high number of home runs happening with two and three ruinners on, for example. And those blowout losses that are outnumbering the blowout wins -- that's the absolute hallmark of a bad team.
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MFS62 May 31 2018 11:05 AM Re: So Now What? |
Slogan:
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Centerfield May 31 2018 01:59 PM Re: So Now What? |
You know, if Conforto and Nimmo are for real (and they absolutely are) then those are two good outfielders to build around. Add Alonso to the mix and you've got a thumper in the middle of your lineup. Rosario is still young with the world of potential. And Plawecki may be coming around. TJ Rivera has a career .780 OPS.
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Nymr83 May 31 2018 04:37 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Machado. Machado. Machado.
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Lefty Specialist May 31 2018 05:58 PM Re: So Now What? |
Would love to have Manny but it's just. not. happening.
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Benjamin Grimm May 31 2018 06:01 PM Re: So Now What? |
I don't think so either, but I hope they surprise us. It would involve moving Rosario to second base, wouldn't it, since Manny has made it clear he only wants to sign as a shortstop.
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Edgy MD May 31 2018 06:36 PM Re: So Now What? |
Offseason worries.
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Benjamin Grimm May 31 2018 06:37 PM Re: So Now What? |
Offseason hopes.
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A Boy Named Seo Jun 06 2018 07:45 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Benjamin Grimm Jun 06 2018 08:02 PM Re: So Now What? |
I won't ever advocate "blowing it up" but maybe the wise thing to do is trade Familia and Cabrera. I'd also trade Bruce and/or Cespedes, but that's a trickier proposition because of suckiness on Bruce's part and injury and a no-trade clause for Cespedes.
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d'Kong76 Jun 06 2018 08:22 PM Re: So Now What? |
Sweep the Yankees. No pressure.
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A Boy Named Seo Jun 06 2018 08:34 PM Re: So Now What? |
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Sandy said as much, that a drastic rebuild won't happen on his watch. But yeah, I agree with all of Familia, Cabrera, Bruce, Cespedes, Ramos (if you could somehow string, like, 4 clean innings in a row out of him). Especially true of Cabrera. He is probably at his peak right now (or maybe a week or so ago). Trade him for useful youngins before he, too, catches the suck.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 06 2018 08:41 PM Re: So Now What? |
I want to blow up the offense (never warmed to Frazier especially with Bruce there) could easily part with Cabrera and Gonzo, and retain the starting pitchers. But geez imagine the haul if we dangled deGrom.
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Edgy MD Jun 06 2018 09:04 PM Re: So Now What? |
Parting with Gonzo is probably not going to be an issue for many. In fact, he's been such a dead man walking from day one, he's sort of like Schröedinger's cat, in that he's simultaneously still a Met and already released.
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John Cougar Lunchbucket Jun 06 2018 09:21 PM Re: So Now What? |
Yeah I know and at the same time he's not totally worthless at his price. He's just becoming that way for us as we lose relevancy. But if a contender needs a Vet LH bat, or especially loses their 1B to an 3 week+ injury he might be worth something.
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smg58 Jun 07 2018 02:22 AM Re: So Now What? |
Unfortunately the D-Backs just traded for John Jay -- they had been winging it in right field all season and could have been a suitor for Bruce.
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