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So Now What?

Centerfield
May 14 2018 02:03 PM

We are six weeks into the season, and we're pretty bad. A game over .500, but we have a negative run differential. The offense is non-existent. One of the worst in all of baseball. The pitching has been inconsistent, good at times, bad at times, resulting in an ERA right around league average. If things continue like this, we'll soon fall out of the race and likely end up with a losing record.

We've had a few injuries here and there (Plawecki, Swarzak, deGrom missing a start), but for the most part we've been relatively healthy. Even Conforto came back earlier than expected. The optimists said coming into the season that as long as the Mets stayed healthy, they would contend. It doesn't look like that is the case.

I mean, I'm sure they'll play better than they've played during this stretch, but I don't see where we are going to see enough improvement to compete long-term.

Offensively, Conforto, we hope, will pick things up. At .686 he's well below his career OPS of .827. So you figure that will help us out. Jay Bruce will uptick closer to his career average we hope, but he's had off years where he hovers in the low .700's before. Cabrera is actually over-performing and is likely to regress. Frazier, Gonzalez, Rosario, our catchers, I think what you see is what you're going to get.

Dom Smith? Call up Alonso? Make a trade for Realmuto? Maybe if Cecchini were healthy he could fake it at SS.

As for pitching, I don't see help coming from anywhere in the organization. I guess you could try moving Gsellman or Lugo back into the rotation, but then our bullpen would suck.

I don't know. How do we fix this?

MFS62
May 14 2018 02:19 PM
Re: So Now What?

Bring in a Shaman to remove the curse put on the team when they built Citi Field on a Native American Burial Grounds.

Later

Benjamin Grimm
May 14 2018 02:33 PM
Re: So Now What?

Did the Native American spirits not have an objection to the Shea Stadium parking lot?

Ceetar
May 14 2018 02:50 PM
Re: So Now What?

Plawecki coming back will help. As will Frazier, who was very good. Let's hope for no set backs.


Gonzalez will better, as the peripherals are there, or Dom Smith will help.

(stop playing Bruce so much and get more Nimmo)

You gotta hope Rosario shows some of that prospect shine soon, even if it's not by walking, at least by making better contact. When Frazier is back you might have to consider working Flores in more (and Cabrera at SS?), though Flores isn't great.

Vargas isn't good, but he's not bad either. Matz and Wheeler are competitive for the most part. The pitching looks worse than it is because of the Vargas disaster so far and Harvey. Really it's been the offense.

They'll be better though, but it sucks that they squandered the bad start. On the other hand, they went/are going through these struggles and are still above .500 and within striking distance of the Nats. The Nats are flawed, especially where depth is concerned. Scherzer is awesome and probably has been underrated and remarkably healthy.

I think they could use a better infield bench guy than Reyes, but I think the writings on the wall for Reyes and he'll go away soon. Or he'll wake up and have a second half like last year?

There is a lot of time left. But they're definitely squandering some opportunities here, and it's time to get back to playing above average baseball.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
May 14 2018 03:17 PM
Re: So Now What?

If you want to be optimistic there's more guys expected to improve than regress from here on in, and I'm including Rosario, whose suckiness is real but is magnified by the others' struggles. They addressed the monthlong weakness of the catching situation already and the return of Plawecki could help that along further.

But yeah it sort of gets to the heart of the Mets' problem that so few of their main guys (Gonzalez, Frazier, Bruce, Cabrera and even Cespedes) have "big upsides" -- they are sort of counting on the boring but effective baseball card seasons from them.

If you're ready to shelf Rosario (I'm not; his D is perfectly fine and he and Conforto are the few who capable of posting "upside") then you're just going with another offensive question mark.

I don't believe Vargas will suck all year, and there's Oswalt and Flexy, Gsellman and Lugo, if things get too worse with him. If you want to be super optimistic last year's No. 1 pick David Peterson is off to a good start and he's a 6-6 lefty college-bred start and could come quick (that's what she said).

If you also wanna be optimistic you can dream on Smith or Alonso proving too good for their leagues.

In sum, we need the 5 vets to put up average seasons, Conforto and Rosario to improve, and the catching not to suck.

The pitching has been okay, could be better

Edgy MD
May 14 2018 03:24 PM
Re: So Now What?

And commit to an on-basing (and even small-ball) strategy to offset the feast-or-famine nature of a power-tool offense.

A Boy Named Seo
May 14 2018 03:46 PM
Re: So Now What?

Maybe we have to realize that as constructed, we're not championship caliber and should think hard about blowing it up. Certainty: Ownership is not going to pump Red Sox-level payroll into this team, and maybe they shouldn't. I think we have 1-2 years of peak deGrom left and he'd be the guy I would entertain trading to loot the top 2 or 3 guys from another team's system, like the White Sox did for Chris Sale, getting Yoan Moncada and Michael Kopech and some other dudes. I love deGrom, but if we can't get over with him, we're prob not going to get over with him when he starts to decline, and if we could get a guy like Walker Buehler with a pre-hype Clay Bellinger for deGrom, a mediocre team like the Mets that wants to build a long-term winner should prob do a trade like that. Move Yo to a contender and you could land another nice, young piece. Trade Bruce again at the deadline (and Frazier and whatever reliever is pitching well) and try to get a bunch of middling dudes and hope 1 or 2 of em stick. Trade Familia. Trade Cabrera. Trade Dom Smith! Trade em all!

It will be super unpopular, but being mediocre and signing Adrian Gonzalez and Jay Bruce is unfulfilling too. But if we're aggressive and cleared everyone out at the same time, in a few years we could be the Astros 2.0 with young stars all over the field and a rotation led by 30-year old Syndergaard. Then trade him, too.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
May 14 2018 03:49 PM
Re: So Now What?

I like it, a little, but it's too early to make that call as the division is winnable so far, and the Mets to my knowledge have never really committed so hard to a plan like that.

Ceetar
May 14 2018 03:54 PM
Re: So Now What?

That's because it's a bad plan, that could end up meaning 'just suck' for years and years. There's no guarantee prospects turn into a good core. Hell, if Smith and Rosario were as good as once projected we'd be running away with this thing.

But on that same front, the Braves and Phillies rebuild looks okay, but it's not necessarily complete and the Nats window is probably closing. The time seems ripe to double-down. Though that's what I felt like they should do in the offseason with Darvish and/or Ohtani.

batmagadanleadoff
May 14 2018 03:59 PM
Re: So Now What?

Astros 2.0? Intelligent rebuild? This organization is so dogshit dumb, it'll probably sign David Wright all over again when his current contract expires. Eff Wilpon took over in the early 90s and within two or three years, squandered away every last ounce of the Mets good will; it's been a Yankee town ever since. And it's only gotten worse because now, Run For the Hills Wilpon gets to make big decisions as well.

A Boy Named Seo
May 14 2018 05:06 PM
Re: So Now What?

Ceetar wrote:
That's because it's a bad plan, that could end up meaning 'just suck' for years and years. There's no guarantee prospects turn into a good core. Hell, if Smith and Rosario were as good as once projected we'd be running away with this thing.

But on that same front, the Braves and Phillies rebuild looks okay, but it's not necessarily complete and the Nats window is probably closing. The time seems ripe to double-down. Though that's what I felt like they should do in the offseason with Darvish and/or Ohtani.


Yeah we could suck, or we could be like we've been the last 10 or 20 years, decidedly mediocre with winning seasons about half the time and a few playoff appearances that didn't quite work out. The nuke was great for the Astros and the White Sox are still shitty, but have accumulated a mass of elite prospects that they'll control for a long time. I think it's ballsy to recognize you're not as good as you wish you were and realistic to acknowledge that $100M of immediate spending is not on the horizon. Then when it comes time to spending, an acquisition like Verlander on the Astros makes so much more sense than say, Arrieta on this year's Mets team does.

Centerfield
May 14 2018 05:37 PM
Re: So Now What?

The thought of trading away deGrom or Syndergaard or Conforto is painful right? But yeah, I think you have to commit to one or another. Either go big and spend money and be like the Red Sox/Yankees/Dodgers, or embrace the small market mentality and go the nuclear route.

Like Mr. Miyagi famously said:

"Daniel-san, must talk. Walk on road. Walk right side, safe. Walk left side, safe. Walk middle, sooner or later, get squish, just like grape. Here baseball payroll, same thing. Either spend money, yes, or spend money, no. You do spend money 'guess so', squish just like grape."

I don't know that we're at that point yet. But I agree, once we realize we're not good enough, we should commit to rebuilding. Are we at that point?

41Forever
May 14 2018 05:50 PM
Re: So Now What?

I'm not willing to concede that this isn't a championship caliber team. We might not be as good as when we were 12-1, but we're not as bad as we were during this recent stretch.

A Boy Named Seo
May 14 2018 05:56 PM
Re: So Now What?

I don't think we're necessarily at that point. This team will prob, hopefully get hot one more good time, and could win 83-86 games. Maybe catch a wild card. Maybe get lucky from there. I don't think they're currently built for sustained greatness (or very goodness) though.

dgwphotography
May 14 2018 05:58 PM
Re: So Now What?

A Boy Named Seo wrote:
I don't think we're necessarily at that point. This team will prob, hopefully get hot one more good time, and could win 83-86 games. Maybe catch a wild card. Maybe get lucky from there. I don't think they're currently built for sustained greatness (or very goodness) though.

This is what the Wilponzis want their fans to think. Be just good enough, on the cheap, for some hope. They will never build a sustainable winning team as long as they own the Mets

d'Kong76
May 14 2018 06:25 PM
Re: So Now What?

[fimg=80]https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/uploaded/slockrem/20160127_IMG_20160127_192201.jpg[/fimg][fimg=80]https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/uploaded/slockrem/20160127_IMG_20160127_192201.jpg[/fimg]
What the Mets should have done this off-season is old and boring already.
Why they didn't, couldn't or wouldn't is equally yawn-worthy to me. Backing
up the truck is July talk. It's mid May in both cases.

No one liked the Monday Morning Misery thread? hmpfff

G-Fafif
May 14 2018 06:26 PM
Re: So Now What?

Go 1-0 tomorrow night, that's what.

Lefty Specialist
May 14 2018 07:20 PM
Re: So Now What?

The Mets half-ass it.

They can't commit to a full teardown like Philly or Houston or Atlanta have done because they're in New York. I full teardown would have required 4-5 years of losing, and losing badly. They can't do that in New York.

They don't have the money or roster-building skill to create a sustainable winner, so you get the Half-ass. Where you hope that David Wright will come back or the 5 guys who were supposed to be good actually pitch good at the same time, which never, ever happened. Where you pick an Adrian Gonzalez or a Jose Reyes off the scrap heap. Where an Eric Campbell or Ty Kelly get far more playing time than they ever deserved on a major league team.

Problem with the Half-ass is that occasionally things go right, like in 2015. You then think that justifies continuing on the way you have because maybe this year we'll catch lightning in a bottle again. That usually engenders lots of blah seasons with a team going nowhere.

Edgy MD
May 14 2018 07:30 PM
Re: So Now What?

If Philadelphia is some sort of model of what the Mets should be doing, Ty Kelly has gotten more playing time, while playing worse, with the Phils.

If 2015 is the problem, then give me more problems.

Lefty Specialist
May 14 2018 07:58 PM
Re: So Now What?

Well, the problem is 2009-2014 and 2017 with an end date to be determined.

Benjamin Grimm
May 14 2018 08:08 PM
Re: So Now What?

To me, calling for a complete teardown seems overly masochistic. A smart team (yeah, I know) should be able to improve without taking that big backwards step. Nurture your strengths and get the best players available to fill your weaknesses.

Ceetar
May 14 2018 08:13 PM
Re: So Now What?

Lefty Specialist wrote:
Well, the problem is 2009-2014 and 2017 with an end date to be determined.


2009 and 2010 were the last ditch efforts to keep the last window open after the injuries started caving it in.

they drafted deGrom in 2010 and fleeced the Giants for Wheeler in 2011. in 2011 they signed Nimmo.

in 2012 they fleeced the Blue Jays for Syndergaard and d'Arnaud and drafted Plawecki. They extended the contract of their Hall of Fame caliber 3Bman. They signed Rosario

They drafted Conforto in 2014. They extended Lagares.

So really that period you're talking about IS the rebuild. They made the playoffs in 2015 and 2016, and were extremely injuried in 2017. They did a lot last offseason, despite it maybe not being exactly what some people think was best, to make this part of the 2015+ window and not the end of it. And it shouldn't be! Conforto, deGrom, Thor, Plawecki, Frazier, Rosario, Smith, Cespedes are all still here. they're all good pieces, and it's unlikely all the rest of them will suddenly be worthless.

We're in the damn window, let's stop pretending they're not good enough just because we're in the middle of a rough patch.

Frayed Knot
May 14 2018 08:27 PM
Re: So Now What?

Also, the "one of the worst offenses in all of baseball" thing is exaggerated by the fact that we're tied for second fewest games played so far this season (and the Saturday rain plus upcoming Monday/Thursday
off days this week ain't gonna help).
Four different teams have played as many of five more at this point while only the two Chicagos have played as few (37) and only Minnesota (36) less, all of which I assume is due to multiple April snow-outs in
the upper midwest.
Anyway, the point being, that if instead of looking just at runs scored (where they're 28th) they creep up to 20th when you consider RS/G - still solidly below average but also ahead of 10 different squads rather
than dredging the bottom ahead of only the ChiSox and Miami.

A Boy Named Seo
May 14 2018 08:47 PM
Re: So Now What?

Ceetar wrote:
Lefty Specialist wrote:
Well, the problem is 2009-2014 and 2017 with an end date to be determined.


2009 and 2010 were the last ditch efforts to keep the last window open after the injuries started caving it in.

they drafted deGrom in 2010 and fleeced the Giants for Wheeler in 2011. in 2011 they signed Nimmo.

in 2012 they fleeced the Blue Jays for Syndergaard and d'Arnaud and drafted Plawecki. They extended the contract of their Hall of Fame caliber 3Bman. They signed Rosario

They drafted Conforto in 2014. They extended Lagares.

So really that period you're talking about IS the rebuild. They made the playoffs in 2015 and 2016, and were extremely injuried in 2017. They did a lot last offseason, despite it maybe not being exactly what some people think was best, to make this part of the 2015+ window and not the end of it. And it shouldn't be! Conforto, deGrom, Thor, Plawecki, Frazier, Rosario, Smith, Cespedes are all still here. they're all good pieces, and it's unlikely all the rest of them will suddenly be worthless.

We're in the damn window, let's stop pretending they're not good enough just because we're in the middle of a rough patch.


I think you could argue that drafting Nimmo was more of a fuck up, not a clever part of a rebuild. They passed on Jose Fernandez to draft a guy who didn't even play formal baseball in high school. Wheeler has worked well in our favor so far, but I wouldn't call it a fleecing. Good trade, though. I don't know that extending Lagares should be viewed as necessarily a positive move either. I think and hope Conforto will be a great pick. deGrom genius. Syndergaard = fleecing.

We suck. Blow it up. #TrustTheProcess. Sell the Team NOW!!!!

Edgy MD
May 14 2018 08:57 PM
Re: So Now What?

It may have been a fuckup. But the point is the strategic intent.

You could argue that drafting José Fernandez was a fuckup.

Ceetar
May 14 2018 08:57 PM
Re: So Now What?

You can't knock the process in Nimmo and ignore his major league value and also not call the Wheeler acquisition/process a fleecing. They got a talented arm for literally nothing but some sentimental AB.

A Boy Named Seo
May 14 2018 09:05 PM
Re: So Now What?

Edgy MD wrote:
It may have been a fuckup. But the point is the strategic intent.

You can argue that drafting José Fernandez was a fuckup.


Of all the things the Marlins and their fans regret about Jose Fernandez, I bet drafting him is not one of them.

Ceetar wrote:
You can't knock the process in Nimmo and ignore his major league value and also not call the Wheeler acquisition/process a fleecing. They got a talented arm for literally nothing but some sentimental AB.


I'm not knocking the process on Nimmo, but I do think the direction of the franchise might have been better served (in hindsight of course) by drafting someone else who was more of a known quantity. I hope Nimmo shuts me up and gets 2500 hits and becomes Wyoming's most famous citizen while leading the Mets to a bunch of trophies. But Jose Fernandez would've been pretty nice #4 starter in the 2015 World Series, too. All I'm sayin.

Edgy MD
May 14 2018 09:17 PM
Re: So Now What?

Well, I certainly don't regret the team drafting Nimmo. If anything, I lament his marginalization.

But if what constitutes a fuckup is based not on intent but on the eventual outcome, José Fernandez is no object lesson.

Centerfield
May 14 2018 09:31 PM
Re: So Now What?

Frayed Knot wrote:
Also, the "one of the worst offenses in all of baseball" thing is exaggerated by the fact that we're tied for second fewest games played so far this season (and the Saturday rain plus upcoming Monday/Thursday
off days this week ain't gonna help).
Four different teams have played as many of five more at this point while only the two Chicagos have played as few (37) and only Minnesota (36) less, all of which I assume is due to multiple April snow-outs in
the upper midwest.
Anyway, the point being, that if instead of looking just at runs scored (where they're 28th) they creep up to 20th when you consider RS/G - still solidly below average but also ahead of 10 different squads rather
than dredging the bottom ahead of only the ChiSox and Miami.


20th in runs per game.

23rd in BA

20th in OBP.

28th in slugging

27th in team OPS.

24th in Stolen Bases

25th in HR's.

Can you win with a terrible offense? Sure. If your team has amazing pitching. But if your pitching is league average and your offense is well below average, you sir, are looking at a losing season.

Centerfield
May 14 2018 09:51 PM
Re: So Now What?

Lefty Specialist wrote:
The Mets half-ass it.

They can't commit to a full teardown like Philly or Houston or Atlanta have done because they're in New York. I full teardown would have required 4-5 years of losing, and losing badly. They can't do that in New York.

They don't have the money or roster-building skill to create a sustainable winner, so you get the Half-ass. Where you hope that David Wright will come back or the 5 guys who were supposed to be good actually pitch good at the same time, which never, ever happened. Where you pick an Adrian Gonzalez or a Jose Reyes off the scrap heap. Where an Eric Campbell or Ty Kelly get far more playing time than they ever deserved on a major league team.

Problem with the Half-ass is that occasionally things go right, like in 2015. You then think that justifies continuing on the way you have because maybe this year we'll catch lightning in a bottle again. That usually engenders lots of blah seasons with a team going nowhere.


I think we are getting caught up in some minutia here. This is the point and this is the inescapable reality of being a Mets fan since 2009. Until 2015, one could argue that the approach was one of rebuilding. (Even if they never committed to it the way the Astros did.) What's become evident the last few years is that the team will ever return to its pre-Madoff spending days.

41Forever
May 15 2018 12:06 AM
Re: So Now What?

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 15 2018 02:57 PM

Centerfield wrote:
Lefty Specialist wrote:
The Mets half-ass it.

They can't commit to a full teardown like Philly or Houston or Atlanta have done because they're in New York. I full teardown would have required 4-5 years of losing, and losing badly. They can't do that in New York.

They don't have the money or roster-building skill to create a sustainable winner, so you get the Half-ass. Where you hope that David Wright will come back or the 5 guys who were supposed to be good actually pitch good at the same time, which never, ever happened. Where you pick an Adrian Gonzalez or a Jose Reyes off the scrap heap. Where an Eric Campbell or Ty Kelly get far more playing time than they ever deserved on a major league team.

Problem with the Half-ass is that occasionally things go right, like in 2015. You then think that justifies continuing on the way you have because maybe this year we'll catch lightning in a bottle again. That usually engenders lots of blah seasons with a team going nowhere.


I think we are getting caught up in some minutia here. This is the point and this is the inescapable reality of being a Mets fan since 2009. Until 2015, one could argue that the approach was one of rebuilding. (Even if they never committed to it the way the Astros did.) What's become evident the last few years is that the team will ever return to its pre-Madoff spending days.


I think you guys get too hung up on payroll. Astros last year were 18th, and are 11th this year. Tigers have been a top-5 payroll team since 2012. We went to the World Series with the 21st highest payroll.

The Mets have been to the playoffs twice in the last three seasons. Last year's injuries were a fluke. We were in first place this season until about a week ago. The division is wide open. This is a good season to be Mets fan.

Centerfield
May 15 2018 01:00 PM
Re: So Now What?

41Forever wrote:
Centerfield wrote:
Lefty Specialist wrote:
The Mets half-ass it.

They can't commit to a full teardown like Philly or Houston or Atlanta have done because they're in New York. I full teardown would have required 4-5 years of losing, and losing badly. They can't do that in New York.

They don't have the money or roster-building skill to create a sustainable winner, so you get the Half-ass. Where you hope that David Wright will come back or the 5 guys who were supposed to be good actually pitch good at the same time, which never, ever happened. Where you pick an Adrian Gonzalez or a Jose Reyes off the scrap heap. Where an Eric Campbell or Ty Kelly get far more playing time than they ever deserved on a major league team.

Problem with the Half-ass is that occasionally things go right, like in 2015. You then think that justifies continuing on the way you have because maybe this year we'll catch lightning in a bottle again. That usually engenders lots of blah seasons with a team going nowhere.


I think we are getting caught up in some minutia here. This is the point and this is the inescapable reality of being a Mets fan since 2009. Until 2015, one could argue that the approach was one of rebuilding. (Even if they never committed to it the way the Astros did.) What's become evident the last few years is that the team will ever return to its pre-Madoff spending days.


I think you guys get too hung up on payroll. Astros last year were 18th, and are 11th this year. Tigers have been a top-5 payroll team since 2012. We went to the World Series with the 21st highest payroll.

The Mets have been to the playoffs twice in the last three seasons. Last year's injuries were a fluke. We were in first place this season until about a week ago. The division is wide open. This is a good season to be Mets fan.


This post is so stupid and lazy. People here take the time to think through their ideas before posting. When you write something this lazy you're going to piss people off. You talk about the Wilpons being tone deaf? Holy crap.

No one here ever said you need a high payroll to win. No one here ever said that high payrolls guarantee winning. So stop citing to facts that refute theories that are not offered.

If you read this thread, you'd see that the Astros approach was raised several times as an effective way to win. Blow it up. Lose, rebuild, then go for it. It is specifically cited as an effective method for small market teams. The downside is that you get peaks and valleys. Years of awful baseball followed by a brief period of contention, but if done right, you at least get a small window of greatness. Like Houston or Kansas City.

The other way is to go big market. Develop talent and bolster it with high priced talent. If done correctly, it can lead to long periods of sustained success. Like the Yankees, or Red Sox, or Dodgers, or Cubs etc.

If you do either method poorly, you will lose, regardless of your payroll.

But hey, look, another post for you to gloss over. Let's start the stopwatch on the next "But payroll doesn't guarantee winning" post.

Rockin' Doc
May 15 2018 01:48 PM
Re: So Now What?

I agree with CF, it isn't necessarily the amount of money spent on the player payroll, but rather the wisdom with which that money is invested. The Mets haven't spent their money wisely. They have generally spent their money on slow, veteran sluggers that are past their prime. The team needs an infusion of young talent that has speed and can get on base. Most importantly, the Mets need to add players that are in their prime (or whose best years are likely to be ahead of them) not prior stars whose best years are past.

Ceetar
May 15 2018 01:53 PM
Re: So Now What?

Rockin' Doc wrote:
Most importantly, the Mets need to add players that are in their prime (or whose best years are likely to be ahead of them) not prior stars whose best years are past.


Like Todd Frazier and Cespedes and Lagares?


The only guy who is old and past his prime (one year past) is Gonzalez, who's actually been somewhat fine and unlucky. Jason Vargas and Jay Bruce too, but the Mets have some depth there and it's not like they're relying on these guys to carry the team.

MFS62
May 15 2018 02:01 PM
Re: So Now What?

Start rebuilding the pipeline as well as making moves at the major league level.
The next step will be the draft. Success builds on success. Draft players who have had success at winning programs, players who have performed, not those who they think might perform. And I would concentrate with the first few picks on college players who could be closer to major league ready than high school players. (I also posted other thoughts in the draft thread.)
Later

Edgy MD
May 15 2018 02:20 PM
Re: So Now What?

Seven of the Mets' first eight picks last year were college players, from winning programs (Stanford, Oregon, Oklahoma State) too.

The idea that you want players that have played good, rather than players you think will play good, kind of undercuts the argument to believe in the scouting of Omar Minaya and the like.

MFS62
May 15 2018 02:43 PM
Re: So Now What?

Seven of the Mets' first eight picks last year were college players, from winning programs (Stanford, Oregon, Oklahoma State) too.

I originally had specified position players, but it must have been accidentally deleted when I made some other edits.
From the scouting thread about Bart:
The Mets have gone the college route recently, taking three college arms with first-round picks in 2017 and two in 2016. The last college bat they took was Michael Conforto in 2014, and he got to the big leagues in a hurry.


Later

Centerfield
May 15 2018 05:46 PM
Re: So Now What?

To illustrate what I mean, I feel like this is more or less a successful rebuild:

1. Step 1: Tear it down
During these years, it's expected that you won't win. You lose, you try to draft Bryce Harper and Steven Strassburg. You sign Ronald Acuna Jr. as an international free agent. You trade your valuable players for more prospects, or international pool money, and you build a core of young talent. You slash payroll to nothing. It's low, attendance is low, and you go into the season expecting to lose, a lot.

Win Expectation: 60-70.

2. Step 2: Develop the Talent
Eventually, your prospects make their way through the system and start making their debuts. You find useful players having good years, and maybe you sell them off to get more young talent. Attendance picks up as people start to buy in. People want to see the debut of Harper, or Acuna, etc. Payroll remains dirt low. So maybe with the increased attendance you make a few bucks and can store some of that away. Hell, maybe if everything goes right you snag a Wild Card and go on a surprise run. It's a bonus. You're not done yet.

Win Expectation: 75-85 games.

3. Step 3: Go for it.
Your prospects have all arrived. They are tearing it up. You start to increase payroll. You have to since some of your guys are arbitration eligible. For the first time in years, you sign free agents to fill out your roster. You trade minor leaguers to bring in Justin Verlander, or Andrew Miller. You keep this core together and try to win it all. The goal is to win the division and win the World Series. Unquestionably, you are one of the best teams in baseball.

Win Expectation: 95-100 games.

4. Step 4: Decline
You've lost some of your top guys but you remain competitive. You're already maxed out on payroll, but you try to catch lightning in a bottle and take a chance on some question marks. Coming back from TJ surgery? Let's try that guy for cheap. If we get a few breaks maybe we can steal the division, or snag a wild card. We're not deep though, so a few injuries will probably sink us.

Win Expectation: 80-85 games.

5. Step 5: Tear it down again
Your window as closed. Trade away your talent for prospects. Start over again.

I fee like the Mets will forever be stuck in Step 4.

seawolf17
May 15 2018 05:56 PM
Re: So Now What?

I think we were all kind of hoping that we were somewhere in Step IV and II right now. Yes, there are older pieces, but the rotation is/was young and exciting, there were young guys all up and down the lineup (Rosario, Nimmo, Dom, Conforto) who had potential to break out, stud in the middle (Yo), and complementary pieces around them (Frazier, Lagares, Cabrera).

Part of the problem is none of those guys are/were "can't-miss" the way that the Harpers and Machados and Trouts and Acunas are, and the pitching is ephemeral, and Yo is dinged up, which means we're relying on Todd Frazier and Asdrubal Cabrera and Jason Vargas to lead us to the promised land.

Benjamin Grimm
May 15 2018 06:11 PM
Re: So Now What?

I don't want the Mets to ever be in Step One. I don't think it's necessary. They should be always be doing Steps Two and Three simultaneously, like the Braves did so successfully in the 1990s.

Under the five-step scenario, those few years that you're in Step Three will probably get you a few playoff appearances, but won't guarantee a World Series win before Step Four takes over. The end result may not be any different from the cycle we've seen with the Mets.

Centerfield
May 15 2018 06:20 PM
Re: So Now What?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I don't want the Mets to ever be in Step One. I don't think it's necessary. They should be always be doing Steps Two and Three simultaneously, like the Braves did so successfully in the 1990s.

Under the five-step scenario, those few years that you're in Step Three will probably get you a few playoff appearances, but won't guarantee a World Series win before Step Four takes over. The end result may not be any different from the cycle we've seen with the Mets.


I would love to always be in Steps 2 and 3 too. The problem with that model is that it requires the club to spend money. During the 1990's, Atlanta consistently had one of the top payrolls in baseball. I'm resigned to the fact that they won't spend like that again.

I know Step 1 sucks, but I'd be all for if it meant we got a Step 3.

I don't even remember the last time I felt like we were in Step 3.

A Boy Named Seo
May 15 2018 06:27 PM
Re: So Now What?

I think what CF came up with is about right, although drafting a Bryce Harper or Steven Strasburg depends a lot on how bad you tank and how high your picks are, and signing a Ronald Acuña or Vlad Jr. depends on how committed the team is to dumping resources (human and financial) into international scouting. And luck! Lots of luck! The Astros swung and missed on Mark Appel (along with every other draft prognosticator) but they struck gold with George Springer, Carlos Correa and Alex Bregman with more studs waiting in the wings. Good fortune, for sure, but they had a plan and were committed to it and good things happened. I'm sure if they only got 1 ring out of this reboot, they'd be disappointed given the collection of talent, but they still got a ring out it.

And the supposed advantage of being a New York team is that if you could tie up your new budding stars to long-term deals in pre-arb, you could make your trade for Verlander or Andrew Miller, but could still do something outrageous like trade for Manny Machado and get right up to the luxury tax line if you needed to. That's something the Astros, or another small- to mid-market rebuilding team just couldn't do.

41Forever
May 15 2018 06:33 PM
Re: So Now What?

Centerfield wrote:
I don't want the Mets to ever be in Step One. I don't think it's necessary. They should be always be doing Steps Two and Three simultaneously, like the Braves did so successfully in the 1990s.

Under the five-step scenario, those few years that you're in Step Three will probably get you a few playoff appearances, but won't guarantee a World Series win before Step Four takes over. The end result may not be any different from the cycle we've seen with the Mets.


I would love to always be in Steps 2 and 3 too. The problem with that model is that it requires the club to spend money. During the 1990's, Atlanta consistently had one of the top payrolls in baseball. I'm resigned to the fact that they won't spend like that again.

I know Step 1 sucks, but I'd be all for if it meant we got a Step 3.

I don't even remember the last time I felt like we were in Step 3.


Lest I get called stupid and lazy again, but one hand you say this:

No one here ever said you need a high payroll to win.


Then this:

The problem with that model is that it requires the club to spend money. During the 1990's, Atlanta consistently had one of the top payrolls in baseball. I'm resigned to the fact that they won't spend like that again.


I think they were in step three in 2015, with the stud pitchers coming of age and adding Cespedes late in the season. I think we could say the same about 2016, adding Neil Walker prior to the season. Last season everything that could go wrong did go wrong. I think things are better now. They'll come out of this funk. Maybe I'm a Pollyanna, but I'm enjoying this season.

It also seemed like a weak-ish free agent class last year. Let's give them a chance in this upcoming year.

Centerfield
May 15 2018 06:47 PM
Re: So Now What?

Centerfield wrote:
I think you have to commit to one or another. Either go big and spend money and be like the Red Sox/Yankees/Dodgers, or embrace the small market mentality and go the nuclear route.


If you have a top payroll, you can try to win every year like the teams I mention.

If you don't, and you're a small market team, the best way to go for a championship is to do a nuclear rebuild.

The steps I mention above are the general steps of a successful nuclear rebuild.

There are teams that spend a lot of money but fail. Winning is hard.

There are teams that try a nuclear rebuild but fail. Winning is hard.

In my opinion, if you do neither of the two (don't spend money, never rebuild) you will forever be in no-man's land, where you win around 75-85 games year after year. You will never have any sustained success, and you only win once in a blue moon when everything happens to break the right way.

seawolf17
May 15 2018 06:50 PM
Re: So Now What?

The case is made, though, and it makes some reasonable semblance of sense, that "New York fans need to have a winner." A Mets team that wins 60 games a year for three or four seasons doesn't sell season tickets, whereas "THIS MIGHT BE THE YEAR" does, at least a little bit.

Benjamin Grimm
May 15 2018 06:52 PM
Re: So Now What?

I would never advocate for the Mets to do the tear-down thing. I would have them, each year, say where are our weaknesses and how can we best address them? And the option to spend big on a free agent or two has to be on the table.

And I think that this is what the Mets have been doing, but in a too wishy-washy manner. They went big on Cespedes, but they mix in too much bargain hunting. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with bargain hunting, but it's been a larger part of the plan than it should be.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
May 15 2018 06:58 PM
Re: So Now What?

I'm dubious of the tear down and I think fans badly underestimate their patience for such a thing, and I also think they more or less did a stealth one between 09-2015 and its results illustrate the trickiness of pulling it off.

I sorta wish they were more creative is all.

Centerfield
May 15 2018 07:11 PM
Re: So Now What?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I would never advocate for the Mets to do the tear-down thing. I would have them, each year, say where are our weaknesses and how can we best address them? And the option to spend big on a free agent or two has to be on the table.

And I think that this is what the Mets have been doing, but in a too wishy-washy manner. They went big on Cespedes, but they mix in too much bargain hunting. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with bargain hunting, but it's been a larger part of the plan than it should be.


So spend more? Or spend more wisely? (Forego the Fraziers, Vargases and Bruces and go for one big ticket FA?)

I mean, I'd be on board with what you propose. Sure as hell beats a tear down. But do you think the Wilpons can afford this?

Benjamin Grimm
May 15 2018 07:15 PM
Re: So Now What?

I don't know if the Wilpons can afford it. That, of course, is the rub. But it's the approach that a New York team should take. And if the Wilpons can't do it, then they should sell the team. But that's a whole 'nother topic.

I suspect they can afford to spend more than they've been spending. I wish they would.

So spend more? Or spend more wisely? (Forego the Fraziers, Vargases and Bruces and go for one big ticket FA?)


Maybe sign a Frazier and/or a Gonzalez (but skip Vargas and Bruce) and also go for a big ticket guy. Some bargains are okay, but as I said, they're leaning too heavily in that direction.

batmagadanleadoff
May 15 2018 07:27 PM
Re: So Now What?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
I'm dubious of the tear down and I think fans badly underestimate their patience for such a thing, and I also think they more or less did a stealth one between 09-2015 and its results illustrate the trickiness of pulling it off.

I sorta wish they were more creative is all.


Lotsa folks think the teardown method is a no-brainer but the Cubs and 'Stros, given their remarkable and unlikely success with it, probably set a terrible example --- because everything has to pan out which means you need skill and off the charts luck. Especially in the draft. High draft position. Available phenoms. And the phenom picks gotta pan out even though more often than not, they don't pan out.

And I don't wanna sound like a broken record on this point, but given that the Mets signed Wright in 2012, they're never gonna teardown. The Wright signing set this team back immeasurably. First there was the stud prospect Sandy could've presumably flipped Wright for. Then the way Wright held 3B in limbo these last years as the Mets hoped for Wright's return to all star form -- and this is 3B, on the soft end of the defensive spectrum, where in today's game, a big market team should be getting all star if not MVP offense from.

seawolf17
May 15 2018 07:39 PM
Re: So Now What?

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
The Wright signing set this team back immeasurably. First there was the stud prospect Sandy could've presumably flipped Wright for. Then the way Wright held 3B in limbo these last years as the Mets hoped for Wright's return to all star form -- and this is 3B, on the soft end of the defensive spectrum, where in today's game, a big market team should be getting all star if not MVP offense from.

This is (partially) wrong. There's no way they would have flipped Wright for prospects. None whatsoever. He was coming off a season where he finished sixth in the MVP voting, and he *was* the franchise at that point. Only once had he played in less than 144 games in a season.

Any team would offer that deal 99 times out of 100.

batmagadanleadoff
May 15 2018 07:45 PM
Re: So Now What?

seawolf17 wrote:
The Wright signing set this team back immeasurably. First there was the stud prospect Sandy could've presumably flipped Wright for. Then the way Wright held 3B in limbo these last years as the Mets hoped for Wright's return to all star form -- and this is 3B, on the soft end of the defensive spectrum, where in today's game, a big market team should be getting all star if not MVP offense from.

This is (partially) wrong. There's no way they would have flipped Wright for prospects. None whatsoever. He was coming off a season where he finished sixth in the MVP voting, and he *was* the franchise at that point. Only once had he played in less than 144 games in a season.

Any team would offer that deal 99 times out of 100.


What are you saying: that the Mets should've gotten better than prospect(s) or that they were right to keep Wright?

Centerfield
May 15 2018 07:46 PM
Re: So Now What?

The teardown method is risky, and yes, it's unlikely but I feel like it's really the only way for a small market club to compete.

Houston and KC pulled it off successfully. Other than them, the last 10 World Series winners followed the big market, spend money model. (Cubs, Giants, Red Sox, Yankees, Phils, Cardinals). The last time low payroll team won without a complete rebuild was the White Sox in 2005. (13th in payroll, no blow up rebuild).

Nymr83
May 15 2018 07:49 PM
Re: So Now What?

Bashing the Wright deal makes no fucking sense. He was a healthy all star caliber player, this was EXACTLY the type of contract the Wilpon Haters would bash the Mets for NOT handing out. You cant (credibly) just bash the result that was unforeseeable.

Where the Mets erred, and where you can more justifiably criticize them, is in the length of time it took to stop holding out hope on a Wright return and sign Frazier or someone like him. The Dodgers or Yankees would have treated it as a completely sunk cost much sooner.

Nymr83
May 15 2018 07:52 PM
Re: So Now What?

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 15 2018 07:52 PM

Centerfield wrote:
The teardown method is risky, and yes, it's unlikely but I feel like it's really the only way for a small market club to compete.

Houston and KC pulled it off successfully. Other than them, the last 10 World Series winners followed the big market, spend money model. (Cubs, Giants, Red Sox, Yankees, Phils, Cardinals). The last time low payroll team won without a complete rebuild was the White Sox in 2005. (13th in payroll, no blow up rebuild).


I would say the Cubs followed the tear down method too to get the top prospects only available at the top of the draft, but they followed that up with spending. Call it the "Big Market Tear Down" - Philly is trying to do the same.

d'Kong76
May 15 2018 07:52 PM
Re: So Now What?

I suppose one could Wilpon-bash for not reinvesting the insurance money
they've collected on Wright's non participation though. Right?

batmagadanleadoff
May 15 2018 07:52 PM
Re: So Now What?

Centerfield wrote:
The teardown method is risky, and yes, it's unlikely but I feel like it's really the only way for a small market club to compete.

Houston and KC pulled it off successfully. Other than them, the last 10 World Series winners followed the big market, spend money model. (Cubs, Giants, Red Sox, Yankees, Phils, Cardinals). The last time low payroll team won without a complete rebuild was the White Sox in 2005. (13th in payroll, no blow up rebuild).


There's a good reason for this. Several reliable recent studies were conducted, including by MLB itself. They all show that the more money a team in today's game spends, the more it wins and the more it draws in revenues. Even when their spending exceeds the luxury tax. That a team could also win by spending less is beside the point and as Alfred Hitchcock would say, a big MacGuffin.

Nymr83
May 15 2018 07:53 PM
Re: So Now What?

d'Kong76 wrote:
I suppose one could Wilpon-bash for not reinvesting the insurance money
they've collected on Wright's non participation though. Right?


Oh 1000%

But that is not an indictment of the original deal

d'Kong76
May 15 2018 07:55 PM
Re: So Now What?

Just throwing it out there, not specifically responding to anything. Who
could possible keep up! hahahah

batmagadanleadoff
May 15 2018 07:56 PM
Re: So Now What?

Nymr83 wrote:
Bashing the Wright deal makes no fucking sense. He was a healthy all star caliber player, this was EXACTLY the type of contract the Wilpon Haters would bash the Mets for NOT handing out. You cant (credibly) just bash the result that was unforeseeable.

Where the Mets erred, and where you can more justifiably criticize them, is in the length of time it took to stop holding out hope on a Wright return and sign Frazier or someone like him. The Dodgers or Yankees would have treated it as a completely sunk cost much sooner.


They were four or five years away from contending in 2012, 2015 notwithstanding. The team was putrid, even with the NL's Cy Young pitcher (who wouldn't be returning). Degrom was an infielder. And Wright was in his 30s, past his prime and already with an injury history. This was a dumb signing. A chickenshit signing by a chickenshit ownership group.

Edgy MD
May 15 2018 08:16 PM
Re: So Now What?

But almost none of that is true.

They weren't four or five years from contending. The team wasn't putrid. Dickey was secured for the coming season, or available to trade, as they did. deGrom wasn't an infielder, but a talented pitcher in the Mets organization. Wright wasn't in his 30s, and wouldn't, in fact, turn 30 until December of that season, after the contract was signed.

batmagadanleadoff
May 15 2018 08:27 PM
Re: So Now What?

41Forever wrote:


I think they were in step three in 2015, with the stud pitchers coming of age and adding Cespedes late in the season. I think we could say the same about 2016....



Oh, give me a break already with 2016. In a 15 team league, the Mets had a better record than just 10 of those teams. That's not bad, but don't make it out like it's some historical finish that's supposed to be one of the proudest and most memorable seasons in Mets history. They played in the one game elimination game in a watered down playoff system.

Once in a blue moon, the Wilpons spend like a big market team, and then they lord that season over us to justify all those other years when they spend like the Mets play in Kalamazoo. And that's what you do with 2016.

Ceetar
May 15 2018 08:39 PM
Re: So Now What?

They got outpitched in the play-in game, big deal. They should've started Duda, but whatever. more watered down than it was in years past but still deserved.

If they make the playoffs this year, and they should, that'll be 3 years in 4 they made the postseason. And you'd have to think they'd be poised to do it again in 2019. And they capitalized off 2017 where they could, bringing in some live arms for expiring contracts. Like it or not, they're in it.

Frayed Knot
May 15 2018 09:06 PM
Re: So Now What?

During the stretch where Houston had the top pick three years in a row, they actually wound up whiffing on two: Carlos Correa (2012), Mark Appel (2013), Brady Aiken (2014)
Appel floundered in the minors and has, at least temporarily, retired.
Aiken didn't sign after the Astros didn't like the results of his physical; lawsuits followed and he was picked the following year (#17 overall) by Cleveland. Pitched in low-A last year, hasn't pitched so far this season.
What they did do was hit big on some later picks [George Springer #7 overall; Lance McCullers #41; Dallas Keuchel 7th round) and on some imports [Brad Peacock, Charlie Morton, Collin McHugh] which were hardly obvious choices for missing pieces to a 100+ wins and a WS

The Cubs (currently only 1-1/2 games better than the Mets btw] hit big on Kris Bryant (#2 overall) and well on Addison Russell (11th) but then mainly on a whole lot of international FAs: Baez, Contreras, Almora -- a 'strategy' which may be part money (I don't know if any or all of them were big-ticket signings or not) part scouting skill, and, as always, part luck.


So to tack onto what JCL said about fans not necessarily having the patience for a rebuild, there's also the problem of the iffy-ness of it even working.
Some fans have convinced themselves that finding the next generation of stars is simply a matter of adjusting mindset and choosing to do so. Except it's not that easy.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
May 15 2018 09:25 PM
Re: So Now What?

Wright obviously was a bad outcome on the results and would be a difficult decision to make disapassionately but once in a while you get those guys who make it hard. I think everyone understood Wright was getting paid for being such a great representative of the club and an important figure in the history of the team and now and again if you're lucky you have to make a call like that.

It's true the club was not financially able to reasonably contend paying him that much but again that wasn't his fault. The fans gave the Mets a mountain of crap for letting Reyes go under similar circumstances.

I think the Wilpons figured they'd find a way to get lucky with the other 24 guys. Plus, the severity of Wright's injuries could not have been guessed even if you figured on a regression.

Centerfield
May 15 2018 10:07 PM
Re: So Now What?

Right. I was on board with the Wright extension as well. The rebuild was done by 2015, and Wright was still productive even then. If he hadn't had the SS, he would have been productive for a few years after even. Plus at that point I had no idea that the Mets never intended to spend like they had in the past.

I understand that results are not guaranteed by a blow up rebuild. But it seems like unless you do a blow up rebuild, a smaller market team doesn't stand a chance. In order to defeat a big market juggernaut, you have to blow it up, then hope to win the lottery on a good number of prospects.

I don't know. Maybe it can be done another way. What I can tell you is that the Mets way ain't working.

batmagadanleadoff
May 15 2018 10:29 PM
Re: So Now What?

It wasn't necessary to foresee Wright's terrible injuries to come. The Mets were dreadful when Wright was re-signed. So bad that if Wright had a Ruthian MVP season in 2013, the Mets wouldve still lost more than half their games.

Of course you could justify the signing on Wright's outstanding citizenship, but after letting the batting champ and then the Cy Young award winner walk away, the Mets had no balls to trade Wright --- and that's the difference between an ordinary organization and a thoughtful cutting-edge franchise.

cooby
May 15 2018 11:38 PM
Re: So Now What?

It’s time to drop our collective sentimentalities (Wright, 95% of the pitching staff) Nimmo, Jay Bruce (has any man ever taken off so damn much paternity time?) (I dropped him from my fantasy team, the asshole), Conforto, 95% of the pitching staff (oh I mentioned that? I mean EVERYONE except DeGrom and Thor including EVERY SINGLE effing bullpen pitcher.)

There. Thet’s my strategy

Oh wait. Reyes, whom dad loved but fuck him*. And honestly beyond that I can’t name a regular.

I was so proud when my dad drilled me on regulars in the early 70s

These guys suck

*jose, not dad. That would be creepy

Edgy MD
May 16 2018 02:10 AM
Re: So Now What?

cooby wrote:
Jay Bruce (has any man ever taken off so damn much paternity time?)

It was like two games.

d'Kong76
May 16 2018 02:16 AM
Re: So Now What?

cooby be like gettin' all in our faces

Frayed Knot
May 16 2018 02:47 AM
Re: So Now What?

Paternity leave is three days with (to my knowledge anyway) no variations in either direction.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
May 16 2018 03:36 AM
Re: So Now What?

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
It wasn't necessary to foresee Wright's terrible injuries to come. The Mets were dreadful when Wright was re-signed. So bad that if Wright had a Ruthian MVP season in 2013, the Mets wouldve still lost more than half their games.

Of course you could justify the signing on Wright's outstanding citizenship, but after letting the batting champ and then the Cy Young award winner walk away, the Mets had no balls to trade Wright --- and that's the difference between an ordinary organization and a thoughtful cutting-edge franchise.


It would have been bold. The Cards more or less did it with Pujols.

The Wilpons also would have been crucified had they not made the offer. I suspect that, deep down, "risk avoidance"-- PR-wise, rather than actual, onfield risk avoidance-- probably had a decent amount to do with the decision.

batmagadanleadoff
May 16 2018 04:38 AM
Re: So Now What?

I always thought that the Wright re-signing was mostly to avoid the inevitable tabloid PR shitstorm that would follow otherwise. My own theory is that Sandy, left to his own devices, would have flipped Wright for younger talent but for the Wilpons meddling.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
May 16 2018 04:41 AM
Re: So Now What?

that's entirely possible and probably true at some level. otoh, Wright was a good player and no harm in having too many of those.

cooby
May 16 2018 12:29 PM
Re: So Now What?

d'Kong76 wrote:
cooby be like gettin' all in our faces



Ah I’m just frustrated. I can’t watch and it makes Me cranky.


And if Bruce was only off for two games than yahoo fantasy is the one I should be mad at because I swear they listed him as inactive for five days

Lefty Specialist
May 16 2018 12:44 PM
Re: So Now What?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
batmagadanleadoff wrote:
It wasn't necessary to foresee Wright's terrible injuries to come. The Mets were dreadful when Wright was re-signed. So bad that if Wright had a Ruthian MVP season in 2013, the Mets wouldve still lost more than half their games.

Of course you could justify the signing on Wright's outstanding citizenship, but after letting the batting champ and then the Cy Young award winner walk away, the Mets had no balls to trade Wright --- and that's the difference between an ordinary organization and a thoughtful cutting-edge franchise.


It would have been bold. The Cards more or less did it with Pujols.

The Wilpons also would have been crucified had they not made the offer. I suspect that, deep down, "risk avoidance"-- PR-wise, rather than actual, onfield risk avoidance-- probably had a decent amount to do with the decision.


This. They'd let Reyes walk after 2011 and a batting title. To let Wright walk, the Golden Boy face of the franchise who'd been a Met fan since he was a little kid watching Tides games in Norfolk, would have been a public relations disaster. It would have been akin to trading Tom Seaver in his prime, and we all know how that worked out. This was risk avoidance, pure and simple.

seawolf17
May 16 2018 01:21 PM
Re: So Now What?

I'm sort of fascinated by the new cussin' Cooby. Good times.

Ceetar
May 16 2018 01:26 PM
Re: So Now What?

If Wright doesn't get/have Stenosis he's a fucking hall of famer. It was absolutely the right move, he by all logical accounts had years and years left of high, perhaps great, production, especially given that his profile fits so well into the juiced ball era. The guy would've hit 40 home runs in 2016.

It was absolutely the right move, on any level, to re-sign him. Only a team doing a complete tear down we actively want to lose games for 4 years to get picks would even consider it.

seawolf17
May 16 2018 02:07 PM
Re: So Now What?

Ceetar wrote:
If Wright doesn't get/have Stenosis he's a fucking hall of famer. It was absolutely the right move, he by all logical accounts had years and years left of high, perhaps great, production, especially given that his profile fits so well into the juiced ball era. The guy would've hit 40 home runs in 2016.

It was absolutely the right move, on any level, to re-sign him. Only a team doing a complete tear down we actively want to lose games for 4 years to get picks would even consider it.

Absolutely.

Centerfield
May 16 2018 09:07 PM
Re: So Now What?

I think it's time to pull Wheeler from the rotation. Insert either Lugo or Gsellman.

Give Vargas another turn or two, and if he doesn't pick it up, insert the other one. Hope that Swarzak coming back fills a hole in the bullpen.

Play Nimmo every day since Ces is out. Try to mix in more Lagares. His .339 looks like luck, but let's give him some AB's until we find out.

Hope that Ces and Frazier get healthy soon. See if Peter Alonso is still crushing it at the end of June. If so, call him up.

Play Devin Mesoraco more. Call Tampa Bay and take Wilson Ramos' contract off their hands.

If all this fails, sell in July.

Fman99
May 17 2018 01:27 AM
Re: So Now What?

Cooby is jacked up. Good. I admire the enthusiasm.

d'Kong76
May 17 2018 01:45 AM
Re: So Now What?

cooby wrote:
d'Kong76 wrote:
cooby be like gettin' all in our faces

Ah I’m just frustrated. I can’t watch and it makes Me cranky.
And if Bruce was only off for two games than yahoo fantasy is the one I should be mad at because I swear they listed him as inactive for five days

Lol, I just saw this.
We're all cranky. The Mets, the prez and the overall general forum divisiveness?
I hate him and she hates me. You're a dick, I'm a dick, everyone's a dick dick. And
don't even start on cunt, cunts or cunt's!
I don't care about the fantasy stuff. I can't and don't gamble on baseball,
it's in my contract.

Benjamin Grimm
May 18 2018 01:02 PM
Re: So Now What?

This is about as nauseating a cover as I've ever seen.

Ceetar
May 18 2018 01:10 PM
Re: So Now What?

Harper is a troll and a bad writer. You literally couldn't do less analysis and end up with a stupider click-baity post. Please no one link to it.

Edgy MD
May 18 2018 01:23 PM
Re: So Now What?

Daily News trollling Met fans on behalf of the Yankees. Nothing new.

A Boy Named Seo
May 18 2018 04:44 PM
Re: So Now What?

Sorry, guys, I clicked it. Harper gets his paycheck this week. Of course it's ridiculous, but 3 elite prospects is just the kind of haul for deGrom I think the Mets should think about if they continue to be shitty. Just not, you know, them.

41Forever
May 18 2018 05:23 PM
Re: So Now What?

LOL Harper. He should wait until we actually have a losing record before we start talking about trading anyone.

Benjamin Grimm
May 18 2018 05:26 PM
Re: So Now What?

So he was about two days early?

metirish
May 18 2018 05:31 PM
Re: So Now What?

I am starting to tune out with the Mets, next month of games crucial for me to stick for the season.

Benjamin Grimm
May 18 2018 05:41 PM
Re: So Now What?

Me too. I've taken a step or two back as well. I should have made more of an effort to get to Citi Field in April. I haven't been there since 2016. I got discouraged too early in the 2017 season. It looked for a while like that wouldn't happen (at least not very quickly) in 2018 but things are looking a lot less promising.

Edgy MD
May 18 2018 05:52 PM
Re: So Now What?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
So he was about two days early?

YGB, man. It's the weekend, and we've got an undefeated guy on the mound who is second in the league in ERA.

Benjamin Grimm
May 18 2018 05:54 PM
Re: So Now What?

True. Hopefully the Mets will use their three hits wisely and score a couple of runs.

41Forever
May 18 2018 05:57 PM
Re: So Now What?

Edgy MD wrote:
Benjamin Grimm wrote:
So he was about two days early?

YGB, man. It's the weekend, and we've got an undefeated guy on the mound who is second in the league in ERA.



I can't believe some of you guys are talking about bailing because they've had a rough stretch. The 12-1 stretch should show what the team is capable of. Nothing but a rough stretch. Some orange barrels on the road to a vacation.

Chad Ochoseis
May 19 2018 01:49 AM
Re: So Now What?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
True. Hopefully the Mets will use their three hits wisely and score a couple of runs.


SIX, BABY, SIX!!!

Centerfield
May 19 2018 09:58 AM
Re: So Now What?

41Forever wrote:
Edgy MD wrote:
Benjamin Grimm wrote:
So he was about two days early?

YGB, man. It's the weekend, and we've got an undefeated guy on the mound who is second in the league in ERA.



I can't believe some of you guys are talking about bailing because they've had a rough stretch. The 12-1 stretch should show what the team is capable of. Nothing but a rough stretch. Some orange barrels on the road to a vacation.


There are a couple ways to look at this team.

The team opened with a 12 game period where they went 11-1.

They then followed with an 18 game period where they went 10-18.

Overall they are 21-19.

One could say they are a good team that hit a rough patch, like 41 says above. This might well be true since the story of the 2018 Mets has yet to be written. But it’s the least likely to be true. It’s hard to buy this logic when the “rough patch” is 50% longer than the stretch that “shows what the team is capable of”.

Another way to look at it is to say they are a bad team that had a 12 game lucky streak. This is also not the best answer, but at least better than the prior take. As mentioned above, the bad streak is much longer than the good streak. Also all of the stats suggest this team is more bad than good.

The best take is to look at all 40 games and say that this is a mediocre team, capable of good streaks and bad, but ultimately ending up mediocre in the long run. The slightly over .500 record is consistent with nearly all projections. The stats project to a team slightly below .500, but it’s early and you figure there is some room to shift those numbers a bit.

Now, I know that this is painting with a broad brush and a lot of preconceived notions but I just can’t help but feel that 41’s take is such a typical Republican point of view.

Come in with the notion you want to believe and stick to it. Even when logic and data suggest otherwise. Focus on numbers that support your thinking, even if those numbers are belied by better, more exhaustive information.

Mix in a hint of inaccuracy (the team was never 12-1). Remember to be judgmental (“I can’t believe you guys are talking about bailing”). And you are almost there.

Finally, before you leave the house, check if your opinion justifies the behavior of rich white men. Yes? Congratulations! You’re ready to be a Republican!

Ceetar
May 19 2018 12:54 PM
Re: So Now What?

the data that suggests they're a bad team is fraught though.

Benjamin Grimm
May 19 2018 01:55 PM
Re: So Now What?

Look at this....I hadn't realized that the Mets haven't won back-to-back games since their nine-game winning streak came to an end about a month ago.

Rockin' Doc
May 19 2018 03:32 PM
Re: So Now What?

I’m on vacation at the beach and using an IPad (which I find to be a pain) so I’m too lazy to actually look it up, but I don’t think the Mets have won a series since their hot streak came to an end. It’s tough to win a series when you can’t manage to win back to back games. The Mets need to start winning some series. This series with Arizona would be a great time to start.

Chad Ochoseis
May 19 2018 06:24 PM
Re: So Now What?

Centerfield wrote:


Now, I know that this is painting with a broad brush and a lot of preconceived notions but I just can’t help but feel that 41’s take is such a typical Republican point of view.

Come in with the notion you want to believe and stick to it. Even when logic and data suggest otherwise. Focus on numbers that support your thinking, even if those numbers are belied by better, more exhaustive information.

Mix in a hint of inaccuracy (the team was never 12-1). Remember to be judgmental (“I can’t believe you guys are talking about bailing”). And you are almost there.

Finally, before you leave the house, check if your opinion justifies the behavior of rich white men. Yes? Congratulations! You’re ready to be a Republican!


In defense of 41F's baseball views, it's true that defending the Mets justifies the behavior of rich white men. But that's also true of defenders of the behaviors of the Yankees, Royals, Indians, Diamondbacks, Red Sox, White Sox, Cubs, and Rumble Ponies, as well as more or less anyone else who has earned money from owning or being in the front office of a professional baseball team. And pessimism is fine, and really the only sane choice if you root for the Mets, but not-bailing is part of the life of being a fan. It's why I ignore football, basketball, and hockey. Rooting for 1 1/2 baseball teams is draining enough.

And what a 21-19 record tells us about the Mets is that the Mets are 21-19. The fact that they were extremely fantastic over their first 12 games and rather crappy over the following 28 doesn't provide any extra information on the surface. You could dig a little and maybe see that the competition was different. That was true last year when we started 7-3 by beating up on weak teams, but I don't think it's true this year. We won series against the Nats and Cardinals during the 11-1 stretch, and lost series to the Reds and Padres during the 10-18.

You can argue that it's a different Mets team now than it was at the beginning of the season. This is true to some degree. The slide downhill began when we lost both our catchers in two or three days. Catching is subtle. We all know it's one of the two most important non-pitching positions on the field, but I can't tell much difference between "good" and "bad" catchers by watching them. The Mets have been looking better since the Mesoraco trade. Could be the change from Plawecki/D'Arnaud to Lobaton/Nido was creating a bigger hole than we realized. So maybe things start picking up again now.

All in all, though, I think the 21-19 record is about what the Mets are right now - a .525 team. Closer to good than bad, and maybe able to go deep into the postseason with some luck, health, and good trades, but not the best team in baseball by a long shot.

As far as why the Mets are mediocre, can we tie a rock to the idea that The Yankees Are A Big Market Team That Acts Like One And The Wilpons Are Cheap and toss it into a very deep lake? First, sustained excellence in baseball is nearly impossible. The only teams that have been consistently reasonably competitive over the past fifteen years are the Yankees and Cardinals, and even that's giving the phrase "reasonably competitive" a very broad interpretation. Every other team, including the other Big Market teams (say, the Dodgers, Giants, Red Sox, and Cubs, and maybe throw in the White Sox, A's, and Angels) has had ups and downs, just like the Mets.

Second, as far as the Yankees going big and the Mets going small, I call bullshit. The Yankees' payroll is $166.1 million. The Mets' payroll is $150.6 million. Does anyone really think that the difference between the Yankees and the Mets can be explained by $15.5 million? The players signed by the Yankees to multi-year contracts for more than $10M per year are Giancarlo Stanton, Masahiro Tanaka, Jacoby Ellsbury, Brett Gardner, and Aroldis Chapman. That's one new signing, one mediocre signing, one signing that makes Jason Bay look like a smart deal, one aging centerfielder finishing out a middling career, and a very good closer.

This isn't why the Yankees win and the Mets don't. The Yankees win because they drafted Luis Severino, Aaron Judge, Dellin Betances, Gary Sanchez, and Gleyber Torres, and because they somehow figured out that Didi Gregorius was good at baseball. Or, at least, that he was good enough to hit pop-up home runs in that joke of a ballpark they play in. The key players the Mets drafted or made early-career trades for are DeGrom, Syndergaard, Flores, Lagares, Conforto, Rosario, D'Arnaud, Plawecki, and Familia. Other than DeGrom and possibly Syndergaard, those guys aren't as good as the players the Yankees drafted, at least not yet. And the Yankees have a deep pool of talented young players in the pipeline. We have two first basemen who maybe possibly might could turn out to be pretty good if we're lucky.

It sucks to have to admit it, but the Yankees win because they've been smarter. Or luckier. I'm not sure which. I've spent plenty of time wondering about whether the Mets inability to develop top quality players within the org is due to bad luck or bad skills, and I have absolutely no clue. But I am convinced that the core problem with the org is player development, not some refusal to act like a Big Market Team.

And, for what it's worth, I think the Stanton trade/contract takeover was monumentally stupid and arrogant, and may be the beginning of the end of Yankee dominance. Way too much can go wrong at $30M+ per year (for the later years), even for the MFYs. It'll be tragic to those who feel (MFY bandwagoners) and comic to those who think (that's us).

Benjamin Grimm
May 25 2018 05:14 PM
Re: So Now What?

Maybe the Mets can try more Rhame and less Ramos?

Have there been any firm updates on Anthony Swarzak? Any chance that he'll be back in the next couple of weeks?

smg58
May 25 2018 05:48 PM
Re: So Now What?

Swarzak's injury and Ramos' inability to pitch two good games in a row made it hard to consider moving Lugo or Gsellman back into the rotation. Every starter has pitched well this week, thankfully, which means the need to consider such a move has diminished at least for now. But Rhame and Sewald have both pitched better than Ramos to this point.

In hindsight, the Mets could have spent their resources better. The Ramos deal looks very bad right now -- it didn't seem totally awful to me at the time, but nobody was paying me to anticipate a buyers' market in the offseason. The biggest allocation of resources went to Jay Bruce, but Brandon Nimmo turned out not to be the area where the Mets needed an upgrade.

Chad, I agree with your post 100%. The one thing I would add is that the Mets have been in the habit of rushing hurt players back and making things worse, but I think the culture behind the scenes is changing. Somebody pulled the brakes on DeGrom coming back from the elbow injury without even missing a start, and the Mets didn't push him when that first inning didn't go so well, and Jake has bounced back with two super starts. They have eased up on Vargas (who could not have been less ready to pitch when he was first reactivated) and Matz (who last year pitched through pain he had no business pitching through, with dreadful results), and they are starting to respond. Cespedes, Frazier, and Plawecki are not being rushed back, either. Sometimes it's not the bad luck, but how you handle it.

Rockin' Doc
May 26 2018 03:28 AM
Re: So Now What?

The Mets can't move Gsellman and/or Lugo into the rotation, they are the most reliable relievers the team has. Beyond the two of them, the only one I have much faith in is Sewald.

Edgy MD
May 26 2018 07:49 PM
Re: So Now What?

Well, if one of them provides quality starting, they won't be as needed in the pen.

Rockin' Doc
May 26 2018 09:03 PM
Re: So Now What?

With the way most managers, Callaway included, cautiously use starting pitchers (pitch counts & limiting third time through order) there will still be a great deal of bullpen innings. Which with Lugo and/or Gsellman in the rotation, that we likely lead for even more innings for Ramos/Blevins/Robles et al. If Vargas, Wheeler, and Matz can't give the Mets some consistent pitching, then I guess have to pick their poison.

MFS62
May 27 2018 12:52 AM
Re: So Now What?

Move the franchise to Montreal and apply for an expansion team.
At least there would be an excuse for playing like they did tonight.
(My sarcasm meter didn't move very far)

I've lived through it once already and I think the pain wouldn't hurt as much the second time.

Later

Centerfield
May 28 2018 03:35 AM
Re: So Now What?

Vargas and Wheeler cannot start anymore.

Gwreck
May 28 2018 03:57 AM
Re: So Now What?

Wheeler was actually decent. Occasional untimely homers will happen. He’s also one of our best hitters.

Vargas has no value at all that I can discern.

Centerfield
May 28 2018 01:27 PM
Re: So Now What?

Wheeler is terrible. ERA over 5. WHIP around 1.5.

Rockin' Doc
May 29 2018 12:02 AM
Re: So Now What?

Good teams make plays, limit mistakes, and find ways to win. The Mets are not a good team.

Nymr83
May 29 2018 01:12 AM
Re: So Now What?

Centerfield wrote:
Wheeler is terrible. ERA over 5. WHIP around 1.5.


ERA lies, his FIP is not horrible

seawolf17
May 29 2018 12:28 PM
Re: So Now What?

I think Wheeler still has something there, but I've been done with Vargas since day one.

Edgy MD
May 29 2018 01:06 PM
Re: So Now What?

Nymr83 wrote:
ERA lies


[fimg=550]https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ab/1e/72/ab1e7216d311a93651362535d760ebff.png[/fimg]
I wrote 63 songs this year. They're all about ERA, and I'm going to play every single
one of them tonight.

smg58
May 29 2018 02:54 PM
Re: So Now What?

Wheeler has not been good, but he's only pitched too poorly to give the team a chance twice. Relative to last year, his strikeouts are up while home runs and walks are down. I'm not giving up on him yet.

Vargas -- the Miami start was encouraging, but then he regressed again. He was brought in because he's made a long career out of being dependably decent, and I can't wait to see it. I'm not convinced he's healthy.

Maybe Matz can give us a second straight good start tonight.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
May 30 2018 03:45 AM
Re: So Now What?

We don't have the men. We don't have anywhere near the men.

The window, it's closed. I understand the arguments for doing otherwise, but it would behoove us to sell everyone of significant worth whose prime is now to replenish... deGrom inclusive.

batmagadanleadoff
May 30 2018 03:51 AM
Re: So Now What?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
We don't have the men. We don't have anywhere near the men.

The window, it's closed. I understand the arguments for doing otherwise, but it would behoove us to sell everyone of significant worth whose prime is now to replenish... deGrom inclusive.


Yeah, right. What's likelier to happen is that instead, they'll extend David "Godot" Wright.

d'Kong76
May 30 2018 03:58 AM
Re: So Now What?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
We don't have the men. We don't have anywhere near the men.
The window, it's closed. I understand the arguments for doing otherwise, but it would behoove us to sell everyone of significant worth whose prime is now to replenish... deGrom inclusive.

You also understand considering backing up the truck consideratioins
don't start before the summer solstice. They're not gonna start shopping
stuff now and doing so in July to teams in need (if the Mets' need be)
will garner better stuff. Right? Just nod.

I know it'll drive all the spreadsheet guys bonkers, but the Mets are a
good half-dozen-game bad-luck losers so far and that's a lot in the cur-
rent standings and how we feel about this team.

batmagadanleadoff
May 30 2018 04:07 AM
Re: So Now What?

d'Kong76 wrote:


I know it'll drive all the spreadsheet guys bonkers, but the Mets are a
good half-dozen-game bad-luck losers so far and that's a lot in the cur-
rent standings and how we feel about this team.


The Mets are at .500, true, but they've been outscored 220-239, so Pythagoras sez they should be a coupl'a games under .500. Which means that they've been exceedingly lucky this season, rather than a bad luck team. Me, personally, I happen to agree with what I just finished writing about ol' Pythagoras and luck. I remember scrutinizing the Mets cumulative stats when they were riding high last April, and I couldn't figure out how the hell they were winning so much. The stats didn't justify the results. So take .500 with a grain of salt. Pythagoras sez the Mets should be closer to the last place Marlins than to the top of the division.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
May 30 2018 04:12 AM
Re: So Now What?

They'd been good-luck winners in 8-10 games last month. They're .500 now, their run differential says they should be 24-28.

I kinda felt this way last year, and coming into the season. I thought they had one last hurrah in them before the long, nasty decline. I thought they could have one year of health luck. I was wrong. (I kinda thought they should sell deGrom last year; I'm pretty sure I said so here somewhere.)

The team isn't close to good enough for the types of in-season acquisitions they can afford to make a real difference.

Nymr83
May 30 2018 04:31 AM
Re: So Now What?

The Mets had good reason to believe they could strongly improve on last year with just a little health. That hasn't happened. If the Mets dont put up a strong showing (85+ wins) then it is probably time to "blow it up" this off-season. Unless they want to get Machado and some pitching. That's fine too. But standing pat would be terrible.

d'Kong76
May 30 2018 12:30 PM
Re: So Now What?

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
Pythagoras sez they should be a coupl'a games under .500.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
their run differential says they should be 24-28.

It's still May and I'm sticking with unlucky for a few more weeks. Take
away a few dinks, danks and dunks and they're a few games over .500.
The numbers are fun, and I get it all much more than I let on but if you
watch every pitch of every game those numbers lie so far in 2018.

And the BBB is off the charts in 2018 as mentioned in another thread.

Edgy MD
May 30 2018 01:04 PM
Re: So Now What?

Yeah, the upside to blowing multiple games is understanding that, hey, they were in a position to win every tame in this trip, except for the blowout.

Now for the winning part.

Frayed Knot
May 30 2018 01:27 PM
Re: So Now What?

The Mets and Pythagorus don't really match up well this year.

A .500 record with a negative run differential usually implies a lot of close wins and larger losses. The large losses they have: seven of them by seven or more runs [8, 8, 10, 7, 11, 11, 11] -- that's a shitload
of extraneous runs-against in just 26 defeats -- and by contrast those losses are offset by only two big wins: [10, 12]

On the other side, a better than expected Pythag tends to imply you've grabbed more than your share of close wins, yet the Mets (like you haven't noticed) are now 7-11 in those so it's not like they've been
on some kind of unsustainable roll of good luck just to get to the treading water level. Were they in the first two week of the year? ... of course they were, 11-1 type of streaks don't exist without a dose
of luck. But I think the 'a run is a run is a run' system named after Mr. Pythagorus can get skewed in this still-small-ish sample of 52 games. It's still just an estimate, not a scientific law.

MFS62
May 30 2018 01:56 PM
Re: So Now What?

"I'd rather be lucky than good" is not a safe position for someone on blood pressure medication.
Luck is the residue of design.
And this team has not been designed well.

Later

Centerfield
May 30 2018 01:59 PM
Re: So Now What?

Sure. It's just an estimate. But when it's suggested that the Mets have just been unlucky, the estimate suggests just the opposite.

Anyway, back to to the main point. There's no point in blowing up a .500 team in May. At the least, we have another few weeks to see how this plays out. And that is more or less the frustration. There really isn't anything we can do. We can't upgrade, we can't rebuild. We just have to watch this excruciating story repeat itself over and over again.

This is the Mets existence.

One more consideration, if the Mets do decide to rebuild, I don't see how Sandy Alderson can be allowed to continue.

Centerfield
May 30 2018 02:04 PM
Re: So Now What?

What is BBB?

Benjamin Grimm
May 30 2018 02:11 PM
Re: So Now What?

Centerfield wrote:
What is BBB?


Better Business Bureau?

d'Kong76
May 30 2018 02:14 PM
Re: So Now What?

MFS62 wrote:
Luck is the residue of design.

Blanche Rickey, right? She was the best!
Centerfield wrote:
What is BBB?

Bothersome Boneheaded Blunders, it was brought up in the 'what bothers me' thread.
BP uses bothersome, BR uses bewildering... they're pretty much interchangeable.

batmagadanleadoff
May 30 2018 03:27 PM
Re: So Now What?

The Mets and Pythagorus don't really match up well this year.

A .500 record with a negative run differential usually implies a lot of close wins and larger losses. The large losses they have: seven of them by seven or more runs [8, 8, 10, 7, 11, 11, 11] -- that's a shitload
of extraneous runs-against in just 26 defeats -- and by contrast those losses are offset by only two big wins: [10, 12]


On the other side, a better than expected Pythag tends to imply you've grabbed more than your share of close wins, yet the Mets (like you haven't noticed) are now 7-11 in those so it's not like they've been
on some kind of unsustainable roll of good luck just to get to the treading water level. Were they in the first two week of the year? ... of course they were, 11-1 type of streaks don't exist without a dose
of luck. But I think the 'a run is a run is a run' system named after Mr. Pythagorus can get skewed in this still-small-ish sample of 52 games. It's still just an estimate, not a scientific law.


Going by memory here, but it wasn't so much blowouts as incredibly timely hitting. Maximum gains from big hits. Disproportionately high number of home runs happening with two and three ruinners on, for example. And those blowout losses that are outnumbering the blowout wins -- that's the absolute hallmark of a bad team.

MFS62
May 31 2018 11:05 AM
Re: So Now What?

Slogan:
Vargas and Lugo
We're in this race in a ... Yugo?

Oh well, let's just win.

Later

Centerfield
May 31 2018 01:59 PM
Re: So Now What?

You know, if Conforto and Nimmo are for real (and they absolutely are) then those are two good outfielders to build around. Add Alonso to the mix and you've got a thumper in the middle of your lineup. Rosario is still young with the world of potential. And Plawecki may be coming around. TJ Rivera has a career .780 OPS.

David Peterson has an ERA of 2.06 and a WHIP of 1.04 in his minor league career. 45 strikeouts in 48 IP. Thomas Szapucki will be back from TJ surgery later this year. And of course, we have Jake and Noah under control for a few more years.

Which means that if the Mets could just supplement this young core with a few free agents, they could be terrific. Does anyone know if there are any good 3B and corner outfielders in this coming free agent class?

Nymr83
May 31 2018 04:37 PM
Re: So Now What?

Centerfield wrote:
You know, if Conforto and Nimmo are for real (and they absolutely are) then those are two good outfielders to build around. Add Alonso to the mix and you've got a thumper in the middle of your lineup. Rosario is still young with the world of potential. And Plawecki may be coming around. TJ Rivera has a career .780 OPS.

David Peterson has an ERA of 2.06 and a WHIP of 1.04 in his minor league career. 45 strikeouts in 48 IP. Thomas Szapucki will be back from TJ surgery later this year. And of course, we have Jake and Noah under control for a few more years.

Which means that if the Mets could just supplement this young core with a few free agents, they could be terrific. Does anyone know if there are any good 3B and corner outfielders in this coming free agent class?


Machado. Machado. Machado.

Lefty Specialist
May 31 2018 05:58 PM
Re: So Now What?

Would love to have Manny but it's just. not. happening.

Benjamin Grimm
May 31 2018 06:01 PM
Re: So Now What?

I don't think so either, but I hope they surprise us. It would involve moving Rosario to second base, wouldn't it, since Manny has made it clear he only wants to sign as a shortstop.

Edgy MD
May 31 2018 06:36 PM
Re: So Now What?

Offseason worries.

Benjamin Grimm
May 31 2018 06:37 PM
Re: So Now What?

Offseason hopes.

A Boy Named Seo
Jun 06 2018 07:45 PM
Re: So Now What?

Benjamin Grimm
Jun 06 2018 08:02 PM
Re: So Now What?

I won't ever advocate "blowing it up" but maybe the wise thing to do is trade Familia and Cabrera. I'd also trade Bruce and/or Cespedes, but that's a trickier proposition because of suckiness on Bruce's part and injury and a no-trade clause for Cespedes.

d'Kong76
Jun 06 2018 08:22 PM
Re: So Now What?

Sweep the Yankees. No pressure.

A Boy Named Seo
Jun 06 2018 08:34 PM
Re: So Now What?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I won't ever advocate "blowing it up" but maybe the wise thing to do is trade Familia and Cabrera. I'd also trade Bruce and/or Cespedes, but that's a trickier proposition because of suckiness on Bruce's part and injury and a no-trade clause for Cespedes.


Sandy said as much, that a drastic rebuild won't happen on his watch. But yeah, I agree with all of Familia, Cabrera, Bruce, Cespedes, Ramos (if you could somehow string, like, 4 clean innings in a row out of him). Especially true of Cabrera. He is probably at his peak right now (or maybe a week or so ago). Trade him for useful youngins before he, too, catches the suck.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 06 2018 08:41 PM
Re: So Now What?

I want to blow up the offense (never warmed to Frazier especially with Bruce there) could easily part with Cabrera and Gonzo, and retain the starting pitchers. But geez imagine the haul if we dangled deGrom.

Edgy MD
Jun 06 2018 09:04 PM
Re: So Now What?

Parting with Gonzo is probably not going to be an issue for many. In fact, he's been such a dead man walking from day one, he's sort of like Schröedinger's cat, in that he's simultaneously still a Met and already released.

He's, like, a QUANTUM Met.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Jun 06 2018 09:21 PM
Re: So Now What?

Yeah I know and at the same time he's not totally worthless at his price. He's just becoming that way for us as we lose relevancy. But if a contender needs a Vet LH bat, or especially loses their 1B to an 3 week+ injury he might be worth something.

smg58
Jun 07 2018 02:22 AM
Re: So Now What?

Unfortunately the D-Backs just traded for John Jay -- they had been winging it in right field all season and could have been a suitor for Bruce.

Cabrera -- I think he's already had his best two months with the bat, and his glove is not helping. Sell high while you can, let Guillorme and Cecchini (when he's healthy) handle second.

Familia -- today wasn't the first time that bad luck and bad defense conspired against him. He's fine. That being said, the free agent market will once again be full of relievers, so I wouldn't cling to him too tightly. It's not to early to see what his market is.

Cespedes -- the combination of injuries and a huge salary make it very tough to get more than pennies on the dollar for him. You hope he gets well and stays well, and upgrade other positions in the meantime.

DeGrom -- you're already punting next year if you offer him up. You could get Vlad Jr. in return and that would be a hard sell. Anything less than Vlad Jr. would cause a riot. I think an extension would serve the team better.