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Hall of Fame Questions

MFS62 Mar 28 2006 07:47 AM

This morning on ESPN radio, Steve Phillips was asked if he thought Jeff Bagwell is a Hall of Famer. He replied that he thought so, because not only were his numbers good and he won several awards, but that he has been thought of as someone who has stayed "clean" (meaning not taking steroids). Questions: Do you think Bagwell is a Hall of Famer? AND Do you think future voters will consider whether players took steroids when they are being considered for the Hall, or will they chalk it up to "well, everyone was taking them in that era"? Later

Frayed Knot Mar 28 2006 09:51 AM

"Do you think Bagwell is a Hall of Famer?" Not a slam-dunk because he ended so poorly, but Yes. He did so many things well; great OBP (over .400 lifetime); great fielder, baserunner, etc, in addition to all the usual counting stat totals. May have been baseball's most complete 1st baseman throughout the '90s "Do you think future voters will consider whether players took steroids when they are being considered for the Hall, or will they chalk it up to "well, everyone was taking them in that era"? " Most will consider - though not automatically disqualify - whether a player was "using" but that gets into a dangerous area because it involves an awful lot of speculation. - We all "KNOW" Sosa was using ... but it's based on a whole lotta speculation and virtually zero evidence - If we're going to use the 'sudden jump' in power test then let's convict Davey Johnson and wipe out Maris's record also (he never hit as many as 40 either before or after his 61) and go back to calling Ruth the single-season champ - If Palmiero had passed last Spring's test he probably finishes out his career with the squeakiest, cleanest image - And how do we know that Bagwell was clean btw? Boston traded him because he showed little power in the minors ... then suddenly he had it and later develops physical problems that can't be fixed.

Johnny Dickshot Mar 28 2006 09:55 AM

Not for nothing, but what makes Bagwell clean? Everyone is a suspect as far as I'm concerned.

metirish Mar 28 2006 10:05 AM

Yeah really, I'd suspect Bagwell as much as any of them, arms like tree trunks, built like a shit brick house, late career injuries.....

MFS62 Mar 28 2006 10:10 AM

metirish wrote: Yeah really, I'd suspect Bagwell as much as any of them, arms like tree trunks, built like a shit brick house, late career injuries..... Shit brick house? Interesting turn of phrase. How do we know Bagwell is clean? I'm just reporting what Phillips said. Apparently he may have known that as part of his GM duties when assessing players on other clubs. In any event, he seemed (from his tone of voice) to be positive about it. Later

Frayed Knot Mar 28 2006 10:14 AM

But that's part of the problem, that 'conventional wisdom' has decided that certain guys are absolutely guilty despite a lack of evidence, and that certain others are clean based on nothing more than some vauge rep.

metsmarathon Mar 28 2006 10:27 AM

they also compared him to a few of his contemporaries. i picked up on the conversation late, and might not have heard the entire list: Frank Thomas Raffy Palmiero Fred McGriff Mark McGwire the opinion presented was that if you keep the crime dog out, you prolly shouldn't let bags in. or something like that, on account of relatively similar numbers. they were looking at homers, hits, average and slugging, i think i thought, hey, wouldn't it be fun if we looked at it through the eye of baseball prospectus' WARP3! bagwell: 125.3 / 3 thomas: 114.7 / 5 palmiero: 137.7 / 3 mcgriff: 96 / 1 mcgwire: 101.8 / 1 and just for fun... piazza: 96.5 / 3 helton: 75.3 / 4 griffey: 130.1 / 6 giambi: 76.2 / 3 so.. based on this test... bagwell's candidacy looks pretty good. especially if you then tack on all the 9 WARP seasons he had mixed in with those 10's. i think the only way to really question bagwell's HOF worth is to look at career totals instead of a collection of superb single seasons, all in a row, and also to focus on simply the home run.

Edgy DC Mar 28 2006 10:57 AM

I don't know if they changed the walls or the air-conditioning or what, but he was the first year-in-year-out home-run-slugger ever to call the Astrodome home. No offense to Glenn Davis. The team has had good hitters, but nobody you could pencil for 30 homers. Not there.

mlbaseballtalk Mar 28 2006 12:15 PM

Because of his injuries, in 2004 like Giambi, Bagwell showed up for ST lighter and was featured in SI alongside Giambi as evidence of "The Incredible Shrinking Sluggers" Chris Russo and Mike Francesa picked up on it and said it looks VERRRY interesting and incriminating. Then off the air Jeff's mom (who was watching via DirecTV) called Mike and explained that Jeff had long conversations with family members about taking performance inhancing substances and decided it wasn't worth jepordizing his future and the possiblity of having children down the line. He lost the bulk because he wasn't lifting that offseason due to the injuries. Also I've heard Tom Keegan suggest that Frank Thomas and Morris Ensberg are clean because they have both been such ardent anti-steriod guys. But then again Gary Sheffield has stated the same anti-steroid comments, on Tom Keegan's own radio show and Keegan never moved Sheffield into the group with Thomas and Ensberg. Steve

Frayed Knot Mar 28 2006 01:31 PM

The Astrodome in the Bagwell era had been altered (late '80s I think) and - while still a pitcher's park - was somewhat less punative than in it's earlier days. They probably upgraded the lighting also (as if hitting Nolan in good lighting wasn't tough enough). That deal with Bagwell's mom 2 years back was kinda funny. But, like you said, personal (or family) denials is hardly proof of non-use.

MFS62 Mar 28 2006 01:39 PM

Edgy DC wrote: The team has had good hitters, but nobody you could pencil for 30 homers. Not there. Jimmy Wynn: http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wynnji01.shtml Not every year, but darn close enough. Later

Zvon Mar 28 2006 03:12 PM Re: Hall of Fame Questions

Do you think Bagwell is a Hall of Famer? Yea. Close but he gets the cigar. Do you think future voters will consider whether players took steroids when they are being considered for the Hall, or will they chalk it up to "well, everyone was taking them in that era"? I dont think voters should speculate, if thats what you mean. If there is documented proof, no matter how it comes to light, yes, it should be considered in a negative light. If future disclosures or investigations reveal that "everyone in that era" was on the juice, then none of them should find their way into the Hall. I certainly dont think everyone was.

rpackrat Mar 28 2006 03:25 PM

I don't think it's a particularly close call. Career .297-.408-.540, gold glove defense, 1 MVP award and 4 other top 5 finishes. 44th alltime in OBP (10th among 1B), 35th alltime in SLG (11th among 1B) 25th alltime OPS, 55th alltime total bases, 51st alltime doubles, 28th alltime HRs. There is little doubt that Bagwell is among the 50 best hitters ever to play the game. There should be no debate on his hall-worthiness.

TheOldMole Mar 28 2006 05:59 PM

Bagwell looks like a solid choice to me. The WARP numbers confirmed my gut instinct.