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Put up/ Shut up

Bret Sabermetric Mar 30 2006 05:43 AM

This will be a season in which Jose Reyes and Victor Zambrano need to step up their games significantly to gain credibility. Both have been regarded as potential stars for the last few seasons, while displaying signs of great skills but little dominating work. If Zambrano can't recover from Fernandez's Disease in 2006, there's very little reason to believe he ever will. Similarly Reyes needs to get on base significantly more or else learn how to do so at the tail end of the lineup, which is not a place you usually find your star players batting in their mid-twenties. Without a breakthrough by these two, IOW, I don't see the Mets in the post-season.

holychicken Mar 30 2006 05:59 AM

Dare I say it? I agree. I don't want to get into another discussion about Reyes. But yeah, get one base, please. Just do it. And Zambrano? Stay focused, you putz. Just do it.

KC Mar 30 2006 07:22 AM

I hope to see Reyes have that breakout year too, and expect it eventually. He's very young and seems like one of the nicest guys on the planet. When I read put up or shut up, I can't help but think of someone who's flappin' their gums, talking crap, and exhibiting excessive jock bravado, and pushing his own side show. Don't shut up Jose, just get on base. I don't expect much from Zambrano, anything I get will be gravy at this point.

Frayed Knot Mar 30 2006 08:11 AM

Zambrano's in more of a PU/SU situation than Reyes mainly because of age. Zambrano's already 30 y/o and nearing his FA years which is when things come to a fish or cut bait decision. Reyes is still a year away from even becoming semi-expensive (arb-elg) and guys his age are, for the most part, still in AA. It'll be disappointing if he doesn't show progress but not yet critical to his career.

Bret Sabermetric Mar 30 2006 08:11 AM

I was hoping to see suggestions for others' make or break season. Maybe this thread can become the annual "Whose performance is the most crucial to the Mets' success this season?" Actusally, KC, Jose's mild demeanor and likeable image gives him some of the slack he hasn't quite earned by his MLB performance. If he was a bragging, surly, duplicitous dickhead (in say Sheffield's style), would he be allowed to bat leadoff for so long with a .300 OBP? Would we be demanding that he get busted back in accordance with his delivered goods? Would the paper be filled with tirades harshly criticizing Willie for playing this punk, thug and general asshole? IOW, do we want to cut someone extra slack because he seems like a nice fellow? Or do want to have the best baseball decisions made? Sometimes it seems the Mets overvalue niceness. Of course, when someone ticks me off, like Rickey in '00, with his in your face arrogance, I'm the first one calling for his head on a pike, so maybe I shouldn't talk.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 30 2006 08:26 AM

I think that a lot hinges on Beltran. If he's mediocre again there will be no more reason for optimism that he'll bounce back. We'll be looking at five more years of having to vastly overpay him. If somebody has to repeat their 2005 season, I'd prefer it be Zambrano and not Beltran.

Johnny Dickshot Mar 30 2006 08:32 AM

If Beltran doesn't improve ... NOW!!!! he will be, without peer, the biggest free agent mistake the Mets ever made. Ever.

MFS62 Mar 30 2006 08:35 AM

OK, since you're looking for additional nominations, I'll add Glavine. Let's see how well his very good second half of last season, and his "I re-learned how to pitch" pronouncements carry over into this season. Later

KC Mar 30 2006 08:57 AM

BS:>>>If he was a bragging, surly, duplicitous dickhead (in say Sheffield's style), would he be allowed to bat leadoff for so long with a .300 OBP? Would we be demanding that he get busted back in accordance with his delivered goods? Would the paper be filled with tirades harshly criticizing Willie for playing this punk, thug and general asshole?<<< I would hope not for anyone with so much speed and general promise a few months short of age 23. I'm not making my determination based on his demeanor, I merely pointed out that he doesn't seem like the type of guy I'd like tell shut up.

Nymr83 Mar 30 2006 09:46 AM

Reyes isn't at that Pu/Su place yet, he's got time to mature and the Mets still have another year of paying him jackshit to see if he can do it. Zambrano, on the other hand, is definetaly at that place. At 30 years old if he can't get it done now he never will. Bannister is another guy in that category. He's 25 and was never really too highly thought of, if he doesnt impress here and now he probably won't be given another shot. Unless Kaz Matsui wants to go back to Japan he'd better show something this season as well. Xavier Nady is a utility guy that Omar fell in love with, at his age its time to finally hit well or stop being thought of as a semi-regular.

KC Mar 30 2006 09:50 AM

Right, Kaz is the poster child for put up or go home - I forgot about him, and giving him a season would be way too generous (I realize you probably don't mean season literally). I also echo the Beltran sentiments above.

Gwreck Mar 30 2006 11:57 AM

The Beltran point is good. For what it's worth, I really hope that because a LOT of attention has been moved elesewhere (Wagner, Delgado, plus more of the same for Pedro and Wright) he'll be able to settle down and start raking. In terms of the season, I think Beltran could duplicate his numbers from last year and it wouldn't affect the team nearly as much as Pedro and Glavine...and Zambrano will.

Nymr83 Mar 30 2006 12:34 PM

KC wrote: Right, Kaz is the poster child for put up or go home - I forgot about him, and giving him a season would be way too generous (I realize you probably don't mean season literally). I also echo the Beltran sentiments above. Well, i meant that he has this season, whether with the Mets or after having been traded for a bucket of balls, to avoid a trip home over the offseason.

rpackrat Mar 30 2006 12:38 PM

Disagree about Bannister. He went to college, so he only has 2+ years of pro ball behind him.His ascension through the minors has actually been pretty fast: Partial season at Brooklyn in '03, high A and AA in '04, AA and AAA in '05. Career minor league ERA of 3.32, including 2.56 in 18 starts at AA last year, and 3.18 in 8 starts at AAA. Excellent peripherals in the minors as well. It's not like he's a career minor leaguer who's getting his shot at the bigs an advanced age. He's a good pitcher who has progressed fairly quickly through the minors. There will be times when he looks like a rookie, but he is not at a PU/SU stage. BTW, I think people will be pleasantly surprised by Bannister. I got a chance to see him pitch for St. Lucie in '04 and was really impressed by how smart he pitched -- especially for someone who was only 23. He probably only has average stuff, but the kid knows how to pitch.

Nymr83 Mar 30 2006 01:18 PM

My point about Bannister wasn't really about how deserving he is of another chance if this one fails but of the likelihood of his getting one, which i deem to be poor because a 25 year old who has done well in the minors based on anything other than having "great stuff" isn't in great shape in terms of the way teams perceive him. The Mets could fall off his bandwagon as quickly as they did Heilman's in 2004 or Tyler Yates' last year.

Johnny Dickshot Mar 30 2006 01:41 PM

Is anyone yet willing to lend any credence to the idea that the Mets have stomach for just one "OK Stuff/Knows How to Pitch" slot, and that's what explains, to an extent, Bannister being here while Seo is not? IOW, I'm saying that were Seo here, Bannister wouldn't be, and that, despite past performance, they know that in either case they're getting "OK Stuff/Knows How to Pitch" and slotting that No. 5. Taking this further, I'm thinking that maybe the Mets approached the creation of the pitching staff not as brand names, necessarily, but as descriptions of product, and what they're after is the best merchandise mix? Dynamite Stuff, Really Knows How to Pitch (PM) OK Stuff, Really Knows How To Pitch (TG) Great Stuff, Doesn't Know How to Pitch (VZ) OK Stuff but Good Variety Of It, Knows How to Pitch (ST) OK Stuff, Knows How To Pitch (BB)

Bret Sabermetric Mar 30 2006 01:42 PM

What's Heilman?

Johnny Dickshot Mar 30 2006 01:53 PM

I think he's prolly a mix of Trachsel, Zambrano and Bannister: Some OK Stuff, Some Good Stuff, May or May Not Know How to Pitch If I were to continue this stupid exercise, I'd prolly come up with different descriptions of bullpenny guys too, and Heilman's Can Get Lefties Out would prolly rate as a valueable attribute. Occurs to me I think about bench guys this way too.

sharpie Mar 30 2006 01:55 PM

Why, when I think of Brian Bannister, does Bobby Jones come to mind?

Johnny Dickshot Mar 30 2006 01:56 PM

Bobby Jones Had OK Stuff, But Knew How To Pitch, that's why.

MFS62 Mar 30 2006 03:31 PM

And Rick Reed, too. I think Petit fell into that same category, despite all the minor league strikeouts. Later

*62 Apr 01 2006 09:56 AM Re: Put up/ Shut up

Bret Sabermetric wrote: This will be a season in which Jose Reyes and Victor Zambrano need to step up their games significantly to gain credibility. Both have been regarded as potential stars for the last few seasons, while displaying signs of great skills but little dominating work. If Zambrano can't recover from Fernandez's Disease in 2006, there's very little reason to believe he ever will. Similarly Reyes needs to get on base significantly more or else learn how to do so at the tail end of the lineup, which is not a place you usually find your star players batting in their mid-twenties. Without a breakthrough by these two, IOW, I don't see the Mets in the post-season. Ummmmm, yes. And throw in Beltran fulfilling some of his promise.

Edgy DC Apr 01 2006 12:08 PM

I get the feeling that Zambrano and Ishii (excellent stuff/don't know how to pitch) aren't particularly appreciated in the same rotation by the fans and probably not by the manager and the bullpen either.

cleonjones11 Apr 02 2006 01:21 PM

Edgy DC wrote: I get the feeling that Zambrano and Ishii (excellent stuff/don't know how to pitch) aren't particularly appreciated in the same rotation by the fans and probably not by the manager and the bullpen either. I totally agree. Zambrano has wicked stuff...what will it take for him to put a full season of it together? Hopefully soon. NEW SEASON GOOD LUCK ALL!!!!!!!!!

Vic Sage Apr 03 2006 09:52 AM

there was a time there, when Bobby Jones was winning 14 games a year for the Mets, and Pettitte was with the Yanks, that I was sure Jones was the better pitcher, and would have the better career, and Pettitte was merely the benificiary of great run support and being able to neutralize LHed power in Yankmee stadium. Of course, i also thought for a while there that Billy Doran was much better than that overrated Sandberg guy in ChiTown, and if they had switched parks, Doran would've been the hotshot 2bman. And i still think that, but for Doran's injuries.

Edgy DC Apr 03 2006 10:01 AM

Billy Doran had one of my favorite lines. One unfortunate season, he was mired in the deepest of slumps. When asked about it later, he said something along the line of, "Don't talk to me about that. For one thing, we don't call them slumps. Now we refer to them as 'Billy Dorans'."