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Better Late Than Never

Centerfield Jun 11 2018 06:44 PM

With a career OPS of .843 and a WAR of 42.2, I think Adrian Gonzalez sits comfortably as the starter at 1B on the "Washed Up Superstars that Played for the Mets" team. Andres Galarraga had an OPS of .846 but his WAR was 31.7. Advantage Gonzalez. Plus Adrian actually played for the Mets while Galarraga only made it to spring training. I was going to name Willie Mays the captain of this team, but it looks like he had decent numbers in 1972. .848 OPS. So I think he's disqualified. Around the horn give me your starters. Criteria: Great players for their career who were old and stunk by the time they got to the Mets.

metirish Jun 11 2018 06:53 PM Re: Better Late Than Never Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 11 2018 06:55 PM

OF - Bobby Abreu

Benjamin Grimm Jun 11 2018 06:54 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Catcher: Sandy Alomar Jr. Shortstop: Larry Bowa.

Edgy MD Jun 11 2018 06:55 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Mays had excellent numbers in 1972. Probably as good as anybody his age to that point. And he was more hurt than lousy in 1973. He was Mays. But the lineup to me is: C: Berra 1b: Vaughn 2b: Alomar 3b: Boyer ss: Bowa lf: Bautista? cf: Snider rf: Sheffield? Hidalgo? Brooks?

Centerfield Jun 11 2018 06:56 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Sheffield was very good as a Met. 800+ OPS from what I remember.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 11 2018 06:58 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

I wouldn't put anybody on that team unless they played for the Wilpons, who seek these players as desperate hail Marys because they can't spend like a NYC team ought to. Berra and A-Gone just don't belong in the same category. It ain't right.

Edgy MD Jun 11 2018 07:00 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Lolich, Cone, Randy Jones, Scott Erickson, James Baldwin, and Candeleria round out the rotation. Candy pitched for a lot of years after being a lump for the Mets. He's like Tony Fernandez in that regard. He looked done and done. Sandy Alomar Jr. was almost never particularly good. Was a deserving rookie of the year and that award and his family name secured a brand that got him into a lot of All Star games, but he almost never deserved it on his play.

Centerfield Jun 11 2018 07:05 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Cone is disqualified having spent a portion of his prime with the Mets. That disqualifies 1987 Seaver as well. Just looked up Sheffield and he had an .823 OPS though I think he was injured for part of the season. I'd be inclined to put Sheffield and Alou on the "I thought they were washed up but had a little something left" team.

smg58 Jun 11 2018 07:07 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Edgy MD wrote: Lolich, Cone, Randy Jones, Scott Erickson, James Baldwin, and Candeleria round out the rotation. Not Warren Spahn?

Centerfield Jun 11 2018 07:08 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Mo Vaughn had an .805 OPS and hit 26 HR's in his first year. We'd be doing backflips if we added 2002 Mo to the 2018 Mets.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 11 2018 07:08 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Jeff Conine?

smg58 Jun 11 2018 07:22 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Centerfield wrote: Mo Vaughn had an .805 OPS and hit 26 HR's in his first year. We'd be doing backflips if we added 2002 Mo to the 2018 Mets. I remember thinking that I'd be thrilled if we got 30 HR and .270 from Vaughn, and we got 26 HR and .260 from him. He certainly didn't kill us the way our corner outfielders did that year, and we had no reason to think that Roberto Alomar would show up and suddenly be mediocre. I was just going to nominate Alomar after seeing this post, but it looks like Edgy beat me to it.

Ceetar Jun 11 2018 07:23 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I wouldn't put anybody on that team unless they played for the Wilpons, who seek these players as desperate hail Marys because they can't spend like a NYC team ought to. Berra and A-Gone just don't belong in the same category. It ain't right. Nobody else signs these guys. nobody. The Dodgers definitely didn't acquire Chase Utley and keep re-signing him. The Rangers definitely didn't sign the aged and bad last year Bartolo Colon. The Indians definitely haven't given 111 PA to the facsimile of Rajai Davis.

Bunt the First Two Jun 11 2018 07:40 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Shawn Green and Jason Bay Made the scene but couldn't play Corner outfield spots they filled Counting out the rallies killed Jason Bay said to Shawn Green "Six hunnert homers in between! But CitiField and also Shea Were places we two couldn't play" Jason, Shawn, both noble souls! But corner outfield lineup holes! They took a check straight to the bank They took the Mets straight to the tank! Shawn Green and Jason Bay Joined the Mets way past their day Not to worry, take a flyer We've got our eye upon Cuddyer.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 11 2018 08:09 PM Re: Better Late Than Never Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 11 2018 08:12 PM

Ceetar wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: I wouldn't put anybody on that team unless they played for the Wilpons, who seek these players as desperate hail Marys because they can't spend like a NYC team ought to. Berra and A-Gone just don't belong in the same category. It ain't right. Nobody else signs these guys. nobody. The Dodgers definitely didn't acquire Chase Utley and keep re-signing him. The Rangers definitely didn't sign the aged and bad last year Bartolo Colon. The Indians definitely haven't given 111 PA to the facsimile of Rajai Davis. The Mets aren't like most other teams. They play in New York City. The Dodgers get a pass because they tend to have baseball's largest payroll and it's not even close. They're not signing Utley out of desperation and then trying to fool their fans that he still has it in him to play like a superstar.. And the Rangers and Indians don't play in New York City. Please with the scamming and inept Wilpons and their two first place finishes in 30 years.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 11 2018 08:11 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Three.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 11 2018 08:14 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

29 and three fourths.

Ceetar Jun 11 2018 08:18 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

So you hold the Mets to higher standards than other teams, because you perceive some sort of obvious advantage that may not be there, despite them arguably being the most successful expansion team. So it's okay to give too many PA to a bad player because they've over paid for other bad players or what? Shouldn't this make it worse? They've spent so much more and STILL are playing bad players at 2B? Their rotation might be in shambles. The Yankees also have no pitching depth.

Lefty Specialist Jun 11 2018 08:22 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

The early '70's Mets had a 3-year run of bad third basemen. Joe Foy in 1970 was so washed up he was replaced by Bob Aspromonte in 1971, who was so washed up he was replaced by the washed-up Jim Fregosi in 1972. Fregosi, to be fair, played another 5 years but he was never the player he'd been before coming to the Mets. Yes, it's before the Wilpons but it's always been a Mets trait. Their whole 1962 team was essentially these types of players.

41Forever Jun 11 2018 08:24 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Lolich is a tough one. Easily one of the worst trades we've done, but I think also a bad match of city and player. I spoke to him about it once, and he said he hated playing in New York. "I'm just a big ole country boy." I don't know if he would have struggled as much in a place where he was comfortable.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 11 2018 08:27 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Ceetar wrote: So you hold the Mets to higher standards than other teams, because you perceive some sort of obvious advantage that may not be there, despite them arguably being the most successful expansion team. So it's okay to give too many PA to a bad player because they've over paid for other bad players or what? Shouldn't this make it worse? They've spent so much more and STILL are playing bad players at 2B? Their rotation might be in shambles. The Yankees also have no pitching depth. You're right. The Wilpons are terrific.

Ceetar Jun 11 2018 09:02 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Ceetar wrote: So you hold the Mets to higher standards than other teams, because you perceive some sort of obvious advantage that may not be there, despite them arguably being the most successful expansion team. So it's okay to give too many PA to a bad player because they've over paid for other bad players or what? Shouldn't this make it worse? They've spent so much more and STILL are playing bad players at 2B? Their rotation might be in shambles. The Yankees also have no pitching depth. You're right. The Wilpons are terrific. there exists gray areas. Adrian Gonzalez wasn't a bad flier, and showed some signs for a month or so. Hell, if it gave Smith the no-pressure situation to work on his game that he wouldn't have gotten up here? If there is any longterm value to that, Gonzalez paid off in spades.

MFS62 Jun 12 2018 01:50 AM Re: Better Late Than Never

Nice job, Bunt the first two. and As for a shortstop who really didn't deliver to our expectations (ok, so we got him to play third), don't forget that "All Star" guy we got for Nolan Ryan. Jim something. He was a case of better never than late. Later

Edgy MD Jun 12 2018 02:05 AM Re: Better Late Than Never

batmagadanleadoff wrote: The Dodgers get a pass because they tend to have baseball's largest payroll and it's not even close. I'm not sure what your source is, but Sportrac suggests this isn't even close ... to true.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 12 2018 03:29 AM Re: Better Late Than Never

Edgy MD wrote: batmagadanleadoff wrote: The Dodgers get a pass because they tend to have baseball's largest payroll and it's not even close. I'm not sure what your source is, but Sportrac suggests this isn't even close ... to true. The same source as yours. What's your source for skepticism over my post? The Dodgers have the third highest payroll this season --the top payroll in all of baseball for four straight seasons before that. So they tend to have the largest payroll. And they can do this while playing in a market smaller than the one the Mets play in. And they've developed an awesome array of talent over the past few seasons that is historical in nature, whereas the Wilpons' Mets have tended to have barren farm systems. I don't get this stretching the reasonable bounds of imagination to equate the two teams all because Utley's a Dodger. You can't expect a team to have a superstar at every position. The Dodgers might be baseball's best funded org, and certainly one of the brightest. Maybe the Mets'll get there one of these years when baseball gets the balls to give Wilpon the Frank McCourt treatment he deserves.

Edgy MD Jun 12 2018 03:57 AM Re: Better Late Than Never

Your statement is just clearly not true. Beyond that, you've hijacked yet another thread.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 12 2018 04:20 AM Re: Better Late Than Never

What's not true? That the Dodgers tend to have baseball's highest payroll -- the source of your original criticism? Of course it's true and I'm right. That LA is a smaller market than NYC? Of course I'm right again. That yet again I hijack threads. Don't know what you're talking about other than that you've gone farther off thread with this hijack talk than anyone else in this thread. Oh, and that when it's me involved, you just have to win at all costs, even if you have to contrive something as contrived as what you just contrived. My post is a natural response to Ceetar's post, which was an on topic response to my on topic post. Nobody's hijacking anything. This is how discussions in good faith flow. You just have to win these conversations against me no matter what. You'll probably spend the next two hours looking for that one study like a needle in a haystack that claims LA is the bigger market.

Edgy MD Jun 12 2018 04:25 AM Re: Better Late Than Never

I'm not interested in hearing how you're singled out again. Please don't.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 12 2018 04:37 AM Re: Better Late Than Never

Edgy MD wrote: I'm not interested in hearing how you're singled out again. Please don't. Oh please yourself. Whaddya, suddenly have amnesia In the head? You don't single me out? You suspended me for posting about the way Travis d'arnaud cocks his wrists which was especially galling since I was directly responding to your own post about d'arnaud's wrist-cock technique. I'm sure if I published a book about the Mets, you'd be giving me BOC's every time I write a wrist-cock post. You don't single me out. Crazy talk.

Centerfield Jun 12 2018 01:23 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

My 2 cents. I think what Edgy meant by "thread hijacking" was turning this into another Wilpon bashing session. Now, I hate the Wilpons as much as anyone, but this was meant to be a fun little thread about old guys playing for the Mets. I think one can turn basically every thread into a "Wilpon Sucks" thread, but I agree that we should be able to talk about other, fun lighthearted things as well. Also, for what it's worth, though not the intended topic, not every veteran signing is equal. All teams sign old players for various purposes. I see nothing wrong with signing a veteran player when you are rebuilding. They can be a mentor to younger kids. I also think a veteran signing can be great insurance for a loaded team (like Utley has been for the Dodgers). If the Mets had gone out and gotten JD Martinez or Giancarlo Stanton, a move like Gonzalez is a good one. Veteran insurance for a rookie that might not yet be ready. But when a team signs an old guy and counts on that player to be a productive, middle of the order threat, then we run into trouble. Signing an aging veteran to be a still dangerous bat off the bench is a good move. Signing an aging veteran to be your cleanup hitter during your "go for it" period is ridiculous. The best example of this is Michael Cuddyer, except that Cuddyer's prime wasn't even good enough to qualify for this thread. And that's why the Dodger comparison is silly. There is a huge difference between the Dodgers, who really know how to "go for it" and see five straight division titles, and the Mets, who's version of "go for it" means middle market players and guys past their prime.

cooby Jun 12 2018 01:32 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Well the obvious answer is Willie Mays

d'Kong76 Jun 12 2018 01:38 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

batmagadanleadoff wrote: You suspended me for posting about the way Travis d'arnaud cocks his wrists Revisionist history, once again. I know ten year olds that can go longer without saying cocks and cunts.

Centerfield Jun 12 2018 01:41 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Ceetar wrote: So you hold the Mets to higher standards than other teams, because you perceive some sort of obvious advantage that may not be there, despite them arguably being the most successful expansion team. So it's okay to give too many PA to a bad player because they've over paid for other bad players or what? Shouldn't this make it worse? They've spent so much more and STILL are playing bad players at 2B? Their rotation might be in shambles. The Yankees also have no pitching depth. This is such a terrible set of arguments it's hard to know where to start. I can't believe someone can offer this in good faith. It read like it's meant to infuriate the other side. First off, why the arbitrary category of expansion team? Being the best expansion team is something nobody cares about. Secondly, it's not a perceived advantage. It is a documented, irrefutable advantage. The Mets play in NY. The largest market in the US. Before a single move is made, they start off with a tremendous head start over the majority of their competitors. It's clear as day that there is a difference between signing an aging veteran to be insurance for a loaded team, and signing an aging veteran to be a main cog. If you're going to have a discussion, you have to exert a minimum level of effort or else it's pointless for the other side. The Yankees, with their lack of pitching depth, are 7th in team ERA. While playing in the AL. The Mets are 16th.

Ceetar Jun 12 2018 02:12 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Centerfield wrote: Ceetar wrote: So you hold the Mets to higher standards than other teams, because you perceive some sort of obvious advantage that may not be there, despite them arguably being the most successful expansion team. So it's okay to give too many PA to a bad player because they've over paid for other bad players or what? Shouldn't this make it worse? They've spent so much more and STILL are playing bad players at 2B? Their rotation might be in shambles. The Yankees also have no pitching depth. This is such a terrible set of arguments it's hard to know where to start. I can't believe someone can offer this in good faith. It read like it's meant to infuriate the other side. First off, why the arbitrary category of expansion team? Being the best expansion team is something nobody cares about. Secondly, it's not a perceived advantage. It is a documented, irrefutable advantage. The Mets play in NY. The largest market in the US. Before a single move is made, they start off with a tremendous head start over the majority of their competitors. It's clear as day that there is a difference between signing an aging veteran to be insurance for a loaded team, and signing an aging veteran to be a main cog. If you're going to have a discussion, you have to exert a minimum level of effort or else it's pointless for the other side. The Yankees, with their lack of pitching depth, are 7th in team ERA. While playing in the AL. The Mets are 16th. no of course no one cares about expansion teams, but it still represents more than half the teams. And it sounds more impressive than arbitrarily trying to rank what the 'best' franchises are (hint, the Mets still probably fall in top third or whatever). This woe is me being a Mets fan sucks stuff is tiresome. Another nebulous argument I'm also tired of is the documented advantage and what we 'deserve' as fans. Yes, we have more fans and money than most teams. Some of that is curbed by various financial decisions/cheapness/whatever. It's not like they're spending nothing Nor are they wallowing in last place for a decade. The Dodgers signed Utley to be a main cog, the Mets signed Gonzalez as insurance for a position they have a talented prospect at (who got hurt in Spring Training) and a talented prospect right behind him. The Mets clearly never intended Gonzalez to make it to midseason unless he was mashing. The Yankees, yes, on 6/12 are 7th in team ERA. They won't finish there. The depth issue is coming due now. They also lucked out with Sabathia being able to reinvent himself. You can credit their coaches with being able to help, but not all pitchers can do that. They've got depth issues. so do the Dodgers. Maybe they'll plug them successfully, but it's false to say the Mets decision to take flyers on guys like Gonzalez is a financial one or even a wrong one. The problems with Reyes are somewhat off the field ones, given that he had a reasonable second half last year it wasn't completely off base to think he could be a tolerable backup at multiple positions. It's just a cop out. you can look at most teams and find these retread type guys getting shots, and ending up with quite a few AB. unrelated to the quality of the team.

DocTee Jun 12 2018 03:10 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Carlos Baerga.

Centerfield Jun 12 2018 03:13 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

I'll be honest. I find your arguments hard to follow. Like, I think we use the same logic, but the more exchanges we have I find I'm not following anything you're saying. And I'm not saying we deserve more as Mets fans. But I do believe that every team owner has a responsibility to put winning first. There are plenty of businesses where you can maximize profits and no one will say a word. The team has a huge advantage from day 1 with the NY revenues. The fact that a great portion of that is going to satisfy the Wilpons' personal debt is a travesty.

Ceetar Jun 12 2018 03:34 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Centerfield wrote: And I'm not saying we deserve more as Mets fans. But I do believe that every team owner has a responsibility to put winning first. nope. And I don't believe any team does either. I believe the Wilpons are utilizing more of the ancillary revenue towards debts both team-based and non (though who knows how the accounting goes, maybe it's all team debt) but I don't believe for a second that say the Dodgers are spending money out of their pockets towards the team.

Nymr83 Jun 12 2018 03:48 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

I agree with CF, but for a very narrow reason: Every owner should have a public duty to fans to try and win because they have been granted an antitrust exemption and exclusive territory. If Wilpon doesn't have to try and win then the A's should be allowed to move to Brooklyn and compete wiyh him for fans.

Edgy MD Jun 12 2018 04:45 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Well, that's just one terrible downside of the anti-trust exemption and territorial exclusivity. It insures teams against failure, ultimately incentivizing it to some extent. It's a lousy exploitative system that should not be tolerated. But because it's largely the only one we've ever known, we tolerate it.

Centerfield Jun 12 2018 04:59 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Nymr83 wrote: I agree with CF, but for a very narrow reason: Every owner should have a public duty to fans to try and win because they have been granted an antitrust exemption and exclusive territory. If Wilpon doesn't have to try and win then the A's should be allowed to move to Brooklyn and compete wiyh him for fans. I think this is a very good reason.

Ceetar Jun 12 2018 05:33 PM Re: Better Late Than Never

Nymr83 wrote: I agree with CF, but for a very narrow reason: Every owner should have a public duty to fans to try and win because they have been granted an antitrust exemption and exclusive territory. If Wilpon doesn't have to try and win then the A's should be allowed to move to Brooklyn and compete wiyh him for fans. I mean, I'm against the exemption but I don't think the Wilpons would really have any real threat. Things are so established. I think this might level things out for all two/three/four teams though. The highs wouldn't be quite as high as some residual fans would cling to the other teams, and the lows wouldn't be as low because you'd have the built in rivalries and proximity bonuses coupled with the additional 'home' games for the other teams.