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How much Jeff? How much Sandy?

Mex17 Jun 30 2018 10:20 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 30 2018 12:04 PM

I have been kicking this around in my head as to how to view this. Where I land will primarily impact how I will perceive the prospects of this franchise in the years to come. On one hand, it has been pretty thoroughly documented how the Wilpons are the type of meddling owners who restrict the ability of an organization to succeed. Doubleday signed the checks and left Cashen alone and it worked. Then Fred was able to get control of 50% of the team (presumably because Doubleday received poor estate planning advice) and it began to not work, first as a slow drip, then as a cascade. On the other hand, it was Alderson who could not build a bullpen, completely eschewed defense, and relied too heavily on the "three true outcome" style towards offense. Alderson was the one who oversaw a minor league system where Dominic Smith never bunted even one time. So, if a new guy comes in with new ideas and new philosophies that are not the ones that Alderson had that did not work, can it work? Or is Jeff Wilpon's eternal presence the death knell for anything and everything? What say you?

MFS62 Jun 30 2018 11:13 AM Re: How much Jeff? How much Sandy?

(Channeling Andy Rooney) Although I would break into a happy dance if the Wilpons sold the team, they have given the General MAnager at least middle-of-the-pack budgets to use. Most years, their expenditures have been near the top in MLB. Has Sandy spent that money wisely? I've assembled as many of his free agent signings as I could fit on my desk. You be the judge. (obviously, some years may run into others, free-flowing like this, but): 2011: Taylor Buchholz, Chris Capuano, Willie Harris, Chris Young (P), Scott Hairston, Blaine Boyer, Tim Byrdak, Dale Thayer, Justin Hampson, Jason Isringhausen (remember his return?), Jeremy Hefner, Jon Rauch, Frank Francisco, Rob Johnson, Omar Quintanilla 2012: Ronny Paulino, Fred Lewis, Brad Emaus, Greg Burke, Carlos Torres, Scott Rice, Collin Cowgill 2013: Omar Quintanilla (Round 2), Dario Alvarez (his weird hat and his orchestra), Pedro Feliciano (his arm had died in his earlier term with the team), Scott Atchison, Shaun Marcum, LaTroy Hawkins, Marlon Byrd, Brandon Lyon, Sean Henn, Rick Ankiel, David Aardsma, Daisuke Matsuzaka, Aaron Harang, Bartolo Colon, Curtis Granderson 2014: Taylor Teagarden, John Lannan, Kyle Farnsworth, Dana Eveland, Buddy Carlyle, Bobby Abreu, Johnny Monell, Michael Cuddyer, John Mayberry 2015: Josh Smoker, Kirk Nieuwenhuis (Round 2), Ty Kelly, Jim Henderson, Eric O’Flaherty, Eric Young (Round 2), Asdrubal Cabrera, Alejandro de Aza 2016: Antonio Bastardo, Rene Rivera, James Loney, Kelly Johnson (Round 2), Jose Reyes (round whatever), Justin Ruggiano 2017: Neil Ramirez, Nori Aoki, Tommy Milone 2018: Anthony Swarzak, Jason Vargas, Jay Bruce, Adrian Gonzalez, Todd Frazier Some helpful, many not. 2013 was very productive, but he wiffed on some entire years. Later

Lefty Specialist Jun 30 2018 11:23 AM Re: How much Jeff? How much Sandy?

The Nori Aoki signing was an indictment of how bad the farm system was. You had a team going nowhere in September, and you sign a guy for a couple of weeks just to have a body in the outfield because you had NOBODY worth calling up. Boy, there's a lot of flotsam and jetsam on that list.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 30 2018 11:27 AM Re: How much Jeff? How much Sandy?

I think the Aoki thing was more about a lack of diversity (position-wise) on the 40-man roster. But that, in turn, may have been because of a lack of outfielders worthy of a spot on the 40.

smg58 Jun 30 2018 11:55 AM Re: How much Jeff? How much Sandy?

Well most of the GMs in the Wilpon era, Alderson included, have had some success here. A consistent high payroll would be nice, but the only big-name free agent this year who's earning what he was signed for is JD Martinez, and Boston has the luxury of playing him at his natural position. If Darvish came here he would have sucked for a while and then gotten hurt -- not because that's what happens to all Mets, but because that's exactly what the Cubs have gotten from him. But the Cubs are hanging in due to enormous depth among their position players, which comes from great scouting and development more than anything else. The Phillies and Braves have also passed the Mets on the strength of their farm systems more than what they've spent on players. Carlos Santana is predictably not outperforming a host of other comparable free agent first basemen who got signed for far less, and Jake Arrieta hasn't been better than OK (with a strikeout rate that's a major red flag), but the Phillies are in far better shape than we are. Even the Yankees are where they are this year mostly due to home-grown talent. So everything starts with scouting and development. To be fair, Alderson has gotten some value out of the farm system, and Peter Alonso might or might not change the outlook on our system single-handedly, but other teams have done better and it doesn't require asking Fred and Jeff for more money and hoping they're in a good mood.

RealityChuck Jun 30 2018 12:47 PM Re: How much Jeff? How much Sandy?

It definitely falls to the failure of the farm system, especially for position players. Alderson has concentrated on pitchers and has not been going after position players who could make a difference. Conforto and Nimmo are fine ballplayers, but they haven't had the impact that some of the young players on the Yankees have. Rosario is still not ready, and Dom Smith seems to be a flop, especially if Alonso comes along, giving him no place to play. The sell-off last year brought back nothing but middle relievers. Because the team insisted the other team take all the salary, they weren't even top prospects. Alderson should have been looking for position players. This year's free agent signings have been disastrous, but that was due to injuries. No one thought any of the signings were bad ones at the time. Even Gonzalez was considered a smart decision. There's a difference between a move not working out and a move being bad; the decisions were made based upon the best information known at the time. You don't have a crystal ball.* The fact that the farm system hasn't been producing is the bigger issue, and that's all Alderson. *One reason I don't think the Ryan for Fregosi trade was a terrible decision. If you were to ask anyone at the time who had a shot in the Hall of Fame, everyone -- GMs, sportswriters, fans, and even Sabermetricians (if they existed) -- would say it would be Fregosi. But Ryan learned how to use his talent, and Fregosi was hobbled by injuries.

Edgy MD Jun 30 2018 04:03 PM Re: How much Jeff? How much Sandy?

Dominic Smith was credited with a successful sacrifice for Savannah in 2014, so he must've squared at least once.

Mex17 Jun 30 2018 04:24 PM Re: How much Jeff? How much Sandy?

Edgy MD wrote: Dominic Smith was credited with a successful sacrifice for Savannah in 2014, so he must've squared at least once. I'm just going off what Callaway said.

Edgy MD Jun 30 2018 06:24 PM Re: How much Jeff? How much Sandy?

I'm going by the record. And Callaway, of course, oversaw a camp and the season so far in which Smith hasn't bunted If the Mets don't value that skill — even if I see it as fundamental, and I do — then they don't. Callaway has no business acting like he's counter to that philosophy but his hands are tied.