Master Index of Archived Threads
The Florry Story
| Edgy MD Jul 12 2018 03:08 PM |
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Homegrown, appealing, with a long résumé full of big moments, and possibly (probably?) the Mets' best hitter right now, Wilmer Flores has done everything you could hope for, short of securing a position for himself. But that's a big step he has continually failed to make, and one he has perhaps two remaining weeks to accomplish, as much or most speculation suggests he's about the most tradable commodity the Mets have.
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| seawolf17 Jul 12 2018 03:22 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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If he gets dealt, he turns into Justin Turner II. LET HIM PLAY.
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| Centerfield Jul 12 2018 03:54 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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What would we get for him? A decent young player under team control?
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| Edgy MD Jul 12 2018 03:57 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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He's arbitration eligible going into 2019 and a free agent after that. I think the idea would presumably be that they would get younger and more controllable talent.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jul 12 2018 04:05 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I envision a Flores-and-Wheeler package. I don't know what it would yield, but it should be something pretty good.
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| metirish Jul 12 2018 04:56 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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There are very few reasons to watch the Mets right now, Flores is one yet he can't hold down a starting job.
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| 41Forever Jul 12 2018 04:57 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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Isn't that the package that we nearly sent to the Brewers for Carols Gomez?
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| Benjamin Grimm Jul 12 2018 04:58 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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That's right! I had forgotten about that!
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| smg58 Jul 12 2018 05:17 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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If you think the Mets’ need for a rightanded first baseman will be less next year, and if you think that Rivera and/or Cecchini can do what Flores can do in the rest of the infield, then he’s expendable. He’s one of my favorite Mets and you wouldn’t simply take whatever you could get, but you listen to offers.
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| 41Forever Jul 12 2018 05:18 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I think that's the classic example of a deal I'm glad we didn't make!
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| metirish Jul 12 2018 05:28 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I think there is also the notion that we love Flores because we have been though so much with him, he loves the Mets etc , we feel that connection, but he's bang average and really what would you get for him? Bang average in return that's what
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| Benjamin Grimm Jul 12 2018 05:29 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I could go for an average bang.
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| Edgy MD Jul 12 2018 05:37 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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Well, a big part of why trades are made is because two teams have different assessments of some players' value. And sometimes, one of those teams is more right than the other.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 12 2018 05:44 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I like Flores quite a bit. I think he likes me.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jul 12 2018 05:54 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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A Matz-Flores package could also work. Matz, as you say, has been inconsistent, but his advantage over Wheeler is that he has more years of control. (Three more, I think.)
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| Ceetar Jul 12 2018 06:08 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I'd rather not trade our pitchers unless it's in a package for something really awesome. I don't want to shuffle Matz or Wheeler away for like a Todd Frazier "pretty decently above average but not remarkable". Then you need to find another starter of that quality and you're better off just finding that hitter.
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| seawolf17 Jul 12 2018 06:11 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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The problem with trading any of our four starters is that they're almost *exactly* what we *want* back. I'd rather ride with the horses we've got. Now, if this was a contending situation and Matz, Flores, and a prospect would get us Justin Verlander, then hey, go for it. But good young pitchers with team control are what we need, no? I don't get it.
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| John Cougar Lunchbucket Jul 12 2018 06:15 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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How about if Matz gets us next year's (or the year after's) catcher and/or second baseman? Some kid who can hit? That's what a team 15 games out needs to trade for. I'm as optimistic on the volume of pitchers the Mets have (Gzelly, Lugo, Dunn, Peterson etc) as I am suspicious of Matz as a longterm guy given his fragility. It's almost like a gift that he's done so well.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jul 12 2018 06:19 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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Speaking of next year's second baseman, they should be using the rest of the season to find out if that might be Jeff McNeil. (And I suspect that they'll be doing that in August and September. At least I hope so.)
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| Ceetar Jul 12 2018 06:25 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I mean, yeah, I guess. I like having the lefty, but if you're convinced he's fragile (well, that he's significantly more fragile than roughly every other pitcher who you might replace him with) try to swing a trade for some equal-ish value as a more stable hitter. I personally err on the side of 'keep the pitcher', but I maybe biased as both his and my daughter's first games were the same day.
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| Edgy MD Jul 12 2018 06:41 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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My money is on Mac coming up for the first game after the All-Star Break.
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| smg58 Jul 12 2018 09:46 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I think it depends on when Cabrera is traded. After all the bad breaks we've gotten over the past three seasons, I keep hoping that McNeil turns out to be the good break that turns the team around.
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| cooby Jul 12 2018 10:54 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I want Wilmer here forever. I adore the guy in a motherly sort of way
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| MFS62 Jul 13 2018 12:07 AM Re: The Florry Story |
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As I love him in a fatherly way. Later
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| MFS62 Jul 13 2018 12:16 AM Re: The Florry Story |
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I know there was an article in the NY Post (today) which talked about a Cespeded move to playing first. But with his leg and hamstring problems, I think the first time he has to stretch for a throw, it would be the last. Later
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| cooby Jul 13 2018 01:11 AM Re: The Florry Story |
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Cespedes can jump off a pier as far as I’m concerned
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| d'Kong76 Jul 13 2018 01:19 AM Re: The Florry Story |
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We're married to the man through 2020 for muchas dolares. Might as
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| seawolf17 Jul 13 2018 06:10 AM Re: The Florry Story |
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Yup. Gotta cross our fingers that he can be the lineup centerpiece he's supposed to be.
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| Ceetar Jul 13 2018 01:38 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I don't think he'd be a good 1B and I'd rather him be Jeff Francoeur in the OF defensively over playing at first. Don't waste that arm.
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| Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2018 01:53 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I agree about the arm, but first base would put less wear and tear on his legs. I'll have to trust the Mets to make the right decision. (Good grief.)
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| Centerfield Jul 13 2018 02:06 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I don't get this at all. The guy is hurt. We can be upset that he's hurt but I don't see why we would be upset at him. Plus this is Beltran all over again. The guy is hurt. Jeffy clearly thinks the injury is not as bad as he says it is. Tells his lieutenants to send a message through the media.
You know what? Fuck you Sandy. The guy is hurt. He rushed back too early last year, and he ended up getting fucked. He rushed back this year, and went back on the shelf. So I'm thinking maybe we try listening to him and wait until he's healed. I don't know who the new GM will be. But give me the guy who will tell ownership to go to hell and defend our guy: "You know what? Fuck all you guys who think Cespedes is dogging it. The guy is hurt. He's working his ass off to get back. When will that be? When he's fucking recovered. Why would anyone think he's dogging it? He played out of position in 2015 for the good of the team. He played hurt throughout that postseason. He tried playing hurt last year and it blew up on him. He even tried rushing back this year and it set him back weeks. So maybe everyone chill the fuck out and let him and our medical staff tell us when he's ready to go."
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| bmfc1 Jul 13 2018 02:13 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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CF is right. You're not getting any quotes from management about Jay Bruce's long recovery period. Sandy didn't help it by suggesting that Yoenis was dogging it.
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| smg58 Jul 13 2018 02:15 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I'm with you on this CF.
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| Ceetar Jul 13 2018 02:30 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I think the first base thing might just be a temporary "Let's get you back this year to play some games." thing. At least I hope. I'd actually worry more about the quick pivots and movements at first more than the outfield. Let him slowly lumber after balls out there if he needs.
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| Centerfield Jul 13 2018 02:34 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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A big part of my problem with Sandy is how much he was willing to spew the Wilpon rhetoric.
Hey guys. Cespedes is dogging it. He's a fucking bum.
These spoiled fucking athletes should get off their ass and start earning the money we're paying them.
See what happens when you spend money? You get a lazy-ass dog who sits around collecting paychecks for nothing. You're kidding yourself if you can't see the Wilpon coming out in those statements.
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| 41Forever Jul 13 2018 03:00 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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So, from a communications perspective, it would benefit both Cespedes and the Mets for him to talk to the media. Change the narrative. Talk about the injury, what the problems are, why the recovery period is long and express that he's excited to get back and contribute. Wright has done this periodically. I'm stunned that they didn't do this with Cespedes in Miami. An answer-all-questions presser can do wonders when there is nothing to hide, which is what I'm sure is the situation here.
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| Ceetar Jul 13 2018 03:06 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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You don't think it's possible the old white marine might have similar takes?
You're bashing me constantly in not so subtle racist ways, let me open up to you and talk to you and give you quotes? nah, fuck that. I get that it's self-perpetuating in that the media bashes a guy and that guy takes it personally and then doesn't want to talk to them and then they get pissed he's not opening up to them and bash the guy and... but let's put the pressure on the click-bait MetsBeat to gives us some real honest reporting and not "oh, guess they have to bash the guy since he won't talk".
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| Edgy MD Jul 13 2018 03:10 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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Are we on a new topic here? I think we are.
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| 41Forever Jul 13 2018 03:24 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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Then you let other people control your narrative. MetsBeat is going to be writing about it no matter what, so you want to make sure it is your narrative they are advancing. The more you do to drive the message -- and can provide for the reporters -- the better off you are. Trust me on this, saying "F 'em" doesn't work. They could even pick one reporter they are comfortable with, let that person post the story and the others will follow.
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| Centerfield Jul 13 2018 03:36 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I agree that Cespedes (and for his part, Beltran) could alleviate a lot by taking matters into their own hands and speaking directly to the press. But you are asking someone who is an athlete (not a correspondent), to speak to the press in his second language, after they have already seemingly made up their minds that they are against him, and with the full support of his employer. Just a bullshit situation to be in.
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| Ceetar Jul 13 2018 03:38 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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Meh, it's not on Cespedes to care about how the media portrays him. Even when he's healthy and fine the MetsBeat is all "why is he playing golf so much? Maybe he shouldn't buy such flashy cars?" It doesn't matter if someone ( Isabel Vincent and Melissa Klein ) does a very well written and researched piece on Yoenis in Cuba coming from nothing and how he's enjoying the freedom of America. It's literally a story of the so-called American Dream and they still bashed him being too flashy. The media doesn't need to be all "I don't know why you make me do this to you Yoenis" about it.
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| d'Kong76 Jul 13 2018 03:42 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I don't know, when 41F gets on a roll he sounds like a polished professional purveyor
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| Benjamin Grimm Jul 13 2018 03:46 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I imagine that many of the same rules apply, though. He makes a good point that the Mets haven't been good at controlling their messaging. It's not something that I particularly care about, until and unless it has some kind of impact on the results on the field. But for their own sake, the Mets should try to get better at this kind of stuff.
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| Edgy MD Jul 13 2018 03:50 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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And/or player agents should put their players in the hands of publicists who help them on their personal message.
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| Ceetar Jul 13 2018 03:53 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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It's just that it's an impossible task. The Wilpons get criticized constantly for not talking until they talk and everyone remembers they're garbage people and then they want them to shut up again. The Mets open up about injuries and then get killed when those injuries don't heal as fast as initially prognosticated. But if they're not clear on injuries they're hiding something. They literally can't win. It's why I wish they'd lean into things sometimes, but the Wilpons are too old-fashioned/stick in the muds to do that. Like have a "doors open" night to mock the bullpen gate thing. "On September 10th, the Mets will 'accidentally leave all the doors open to all the Citi Field clubs'"
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| 41Forever Jul 13 2018 03:58 PM Re: The Florry Story Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 13 2018 03:58 PM |
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I'm going to disagree. You are both thinking logically and not in a communications/message management way. First, Cespedes wouldn't be in this by himself. He's got an agent -- who has a vested interest in his client being successful -- who has a media team who would handle the logistics, such as the translator, and would work with him to develop talking points and show how to best answer questions. This is their job. Cespedes is paying them handsomely for their services. The Mets -- who I think should be the ones running such a presser -- also have people on staff to do this. A person can argue that Cespedes is in this situation in the first place because they didn't step in and do this sooner. Now it's damage control. There are many people who should be caring -- deeply -- about how Cespedes is portrayed in the media, including Cespedes himself. I suspect he -- and his agent -- enjoys his endorsement deals. The Mets should be caring about selling tickets, t-shirts, canary compression sleeves and such. Running down the reputation of your top player is a bad business decision. Edgy, sorry of this is hijacking the thread.
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| Centerfield Jul 13 2018 03:58 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I agree with this. At least for me, when I criticize the ownership (or anyone else) for bad behavior, his immediate response is not to focus on the bad behavior, but how to spin it to the public so that it sounds less bad. It's so reflexive and instinctive I don't think he notices it. Beyond disagreeing about any subject, and I am not meaning to be inciteful here, but I really think this is a poor reflection on the character of a person.
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| Centerfield Jul 13 2018 04:04 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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This is so frustrating. Yes, I agree that it's a bad business decision. The Wilpons haven't shows that they're very good at running a baseball team. But can we just take a moment and acknowledge that running down the reputation of your top (or any) player is just a shit thing to do. Unless your guy is actually dogging it, trashing him because of some latent resentment is wrong. It's morally wrong. I don't know why this is so hard for you to admit. Sometimes it's not about the message. Or perception. It's about actions, and things you should and shouldn't do. Even if no one is watching. Sometimes there is just the right thing to do, and a shit thing to do. And you shouldn't do the shit thing because that makes you a shit person.
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| 41Forever Jul 13 2018 04:06 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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And I believe I always preface it by saying, "From a communications perspective, here's what they should do." You are coming at it from a perspective of an angry fan. I was contributing to the discussion by conveying how the team should handle it professionally. And you are most certainly trying to incite and insult. Calling me a "shit person" also could be considered a poor reflection on the character of a person. I've disagreed with you, but I've never said anything like that.
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| Centerfield Jul 13 2018 04:09 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I'm not calling you a shit person. I'm calling the Wilpons shit persons.
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| Centerfield Jul 13 2018 04:12 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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Our arguments basically follow the same path.
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| 41Forever Jul 13 2018 04:22 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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I said exactly that, but without the vulgarity. I said running down the reputation of your top player is a bad thing.
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| cooby Jul 13 2018 04:40 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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My only problem wit cespedes is that he seems to have disappeared. You guys read the local rags; if I’m wrong I will certainly take my pier jumping comment back.
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| Centerfield Jul 13 2018 05:02 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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No. You said it was a bad business decision. Do you not see the difference?
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| 41Forever Jul 13 2018 05:13 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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Have the Wilpons actually said anything about Cespedes, or are you basing that on something the former general manager said, and assumed he was following their marching orders? You certainly don't need my affirmation to hate anyone. And I can't figure out why you are making it personal. Right now Cespedes has a problem. I was noting how he got there and recommending how he and the Mets should solve it. I guess I look at stuff from a problem-solving approach. I'm quirky that way.
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| Vic Sage Jul 13 2018 06:21 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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stretching for a throw at 1b is nowhere near as aggravating of his sort of injury as running hard after a line drive down the line into LF. Since we have him at big money for 2 (?) more years, it behooves us to find a way to keep him on the field. I'm good with a move to 1B as one way to do that.
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| Edgy MD Jul 13 2018 06:43 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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To the extent that stretching at first is an aggravation, I'd imagine it's more of a strain on the groin than the hammy.
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| Centerfield Jul 13 2018 07:42 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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You know, it really is shocking. How much you will dance around a simple question. Spinning and spinning and spinning, but never agreeing to (what I think) is a basic, irrefutable, truth. Whether it's the Wilpons or Alderson who believe it, it is a real shit thing to trash your own player, accuse him of dogging it, and suggest that his contract was a bad signing. You have suggested ways they can spin it, you have suggested ways Cespedes could have diffused it, you have claimed to have already agreed with me (you hadn't), and when called out, asked why I need your affirmation anyway (I don't). You have called into question why I'm "making it personal" and now you claim to be a problem solver who is "quirky". But you have never, not once, despite six responses in this thread, despite me specifically asking you a very direct question multiple times, ever said "You're right CF, that is a really shitty thing that they did." If you believe that, if you agree with that statement, it's incomprehensible why you resist saying so. It makes no sense. I mean, I guess maybe you don't agree with me. That's ok. Then own it. "Actually, CF, I disagree. I think it's totally cool to for an organization to make unwarranted attacks on their player's integrity. This is fine." I think I'd be better with that. At least that's an honest answer.
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| Centerfield Jul 13 2018 07:54 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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And vulgarity? Really? Do my bad words offend you?
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| batmagadanleadoff Jul 13 2018 08:02 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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And all Jeff Wilpon has to do to be the best executive in MLB is to learn how to pivot. Mr. Bluebird on my shoulder.
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| 41Forever Jul 13 2018 08:24 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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There is no reason to be so personal. Yes, if anyone on the team -- from the owner to the bat boy -- is accusing a player of dogging it, it's unfair to the player and harmful to the team on several levels. It also sends a bad message to players who might someday consider signing with the team. It's a bad practice personally and professionally. I should have used that as a preamble prior to discussing how the team and the player can address the problem.
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| Centerfield Jul 15 2018 12:22 AM Re: The Florry Story |
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I’m glad we were able to agree at the end.
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| 41Forever Jul 15 2018 01:44 AM Re: The Florry Story |
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We agreed at the start. My approach was to look how the Mets and Cespedes could address the communications problems they created, which apparently revealed a deep flaw in my character. Mickey today did give a more in-depth briefing into Cespedes condition and status and said he could potentially be activated and DHing in the MYF series after the break. Good news.
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| Centerfield Jul 15 2018 02:02 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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If you did agree with me from the start, it was not apparent. And when you refused to denounce those actions despite me asking you directly several times, then one can only conclude that you do not agree.
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| 41Forever Jul 15 2018 02:31 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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It’s unfortunate that my level of disdain for the owners of my favorite baseball team doesn’t meet with your approval.
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| Centerfield Jul 15 2018 04:32 PM Re: The Florry Story |
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Your level of disdain for the Wilpons is not the issue. Though that is a nice attempt to pivot.
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