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Youth baseball, modern pitching trends, and the DH.

Mex17 Jul 29 2018 02:10 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 29 2018 03:15 PM

I know that this is a pretty traditionalist crowd, so I expect a lot of resistance, but let me lay out the logic here. For most of my baseball fandom I have been stanchly anti-DH, thinking of it as a blight on the "true game". All things being equal, I would still feel this way. All of those arguments on both sides have been played out. But I am also a realist, and as such, I cannot ignore how circumstances have changed over the last 30+ years. Back in the day, people would play multiple sports (football or track in the fall, basketball or wrestling in the winter, baseball in the spring) while maybe also doing other things in their lives (working on the family farm, serving in the military). That was when complete games (or going at least seven or eight innings) was the norm and bullpens were much smaller on account of much more "bullets" being left in the arms of pitchers on the major league level. Now, there is so much earning potential in the game if you make it, kids are now pushed to specialize early on. This leads to more pitches being thrown at younger ages prior to any sort of major league or even professional career, which is why "bullpening" is now a thing. Is there any way to change things back to the way they were on the youth level? If there is, MLB would certainly not be the point organization charged with making it happen. They could influence a few things on the fringes maybe, but for that to happen it would have to be more of an overall cultural change in the country and it would have to happen from the bottom up as opposed to top down, if it happens at all. All MLB can really do is react to the situation that it is being presented with. If arm micromanagement, strict innings limits and pitch counts, and bullpening is here to stay, then it stands to reason that you would want one less variable in the mix that could potentially muck things up. You probably don't want a pitcher's time at bat to influence carefully laid out plans with regard to when and how these pitchers are used and for how long each time out. This is why the DH is probably coming across the board, and it may be time. Another reason is that I also, for reasons separate from the logic that I presented above, think that the leagues are obsolete and are also going away. If there is only going to be a single "MLB" as opposed to the AL and NL, then you then need one standard set of rules. Were it not for all of the above (and the fact that the MLBPA would never stand for it), I would say that the standard ought to be the elimination of the DH across the board in favor of the "real" game. But that is not the real world. The flip side to all of this is that I think that we may be seeing more two-way players coming up in the years to come. Ohtani is already here and the Rays have a guy named Brendon McKay coming who is a top prospect as both a 1B and a LHP. Who knows, maybe you will see certain pitchers (such as Syndergaard) pinch hitting on their non pitching days more often in the years to come?

MFS62 Jul 29 2018 02:25 PM Re: Youth baseball, modern pitching trends, and the DH.

You're preaching to the choir here. Now convince the Players' Union and the agents. Later

Mex17 Jul 29 2018 02:31 PM Re: Youth baseball, modern pitching trends, and the DH.

MFS62 wrote: Now convince the Players' Union and the agents. That should be an easy sell, they would absolutely want 15 more jobs for aging hitters. In my world, you offer DH across the board and 26-man active rosters in exchange for pace of play concessions along with less sabre rattling and collusion accusations on account of the free agent market not going your client's way every single time.

Edgy MD Jul 29 2018 03:11 PM Re: Youth baseball, modern pitching trends, and the DH.

Mex17 wrote: MFS62 wrote: Now convince the Players' Union and the agents. That should be an easy sell, they would absolutely want 15 more jobs for aging hitters. I've always thought this is overstated. Mean salaries between the National League and American League do not split meaningfully from year to year. Some years, the NL leads. Some years, the AL leads. It's always close. In my world, you offer universal pitcher batting, and everybody celebrates, because it is a good thing.

Mex17 Jul 29 2018 03:35 PM Re: Youth baseball, modern pitching trends, and the DH.

Edgy MD wrote: Mean salaries between the National League and American League do not split meaningfully from year to year. Assuming that this data is accurate (I have no reason to believe that it is not), I still think that you are interpreting it in order to confirm your bias. Maybe the NL pitchers get compensated more because they appear more effective due to the luxury of pitching to the pitchers, and that throws off the mean? My view is that the MLBPA would (and should) be more concerned with higher salaries at the top. Why? Because if you can extend the careers of more name recognizable players, you attract more people to watch and attend the games. The heightened revenue from that will then drive up the mean. So the utility infielders and middle inning loogys benefit financially from the aging sluggers hanging on for a year or two more. Although none of that is directly related to the original point of the thread, which is that the way pitchers are used is a result of the fact that what MLB is getting from the amateur ranks is now fundamentally different as from decades past, which should result in a logic adjustment in kind with regard to the DH.

Edgy MD Jul 29 2018 07:46 PM Re: Youth baseball, modern pitching trends, and the DH.

Mex17 wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Mean salaries between the National League and American League do not split meaningfully from year to year. Assuming that this data is accurate (I have no reason to believe that it is not), I still think that you are interpreting it in order to confirm your bias. Maybe the NL pitchers get compensated more because they appear more effective due to the luxury of pitching to the pitchers, and that throws off the mena. Even if that's true and not you absolutely guessing with nothing to back you up, in order to confirm your bias, so what?

dgwphotography Jul 29 2018 11:19 PM Re: Youth baseball, modern pitching trends, and the DH.

In my world: Abolish the DH: do this gradually, eliminating it starting in the low minors, progressing one level each year until it reaches the majors. Increase rosters to 27. With the increased drug testing, including uppers, these players need more days off than ever before. Eliminate Sunday night baseball. Instead have one national game on Monday night (with a back up in case of rain), and everyone else is off on Monday. Hold the Hall of Fame induction in conjunction with the All-Star break. It makes no sense that everyone is playing during the ceremony. Want to increase speed of play? Call the regulation strike zone from nipples to knees. Eliminate inter league play.

Frayed Knot Jul 30 2018 12:55 AM Re: Youth baseball, modern pitching trends, and the DH.

Without turning this into a laundry list of ways to tweak the game, I just don't see any connection between youth sports and the DH rule. They may eventually go full-time DH but it won't be because of how American yutes are being raised these days. Basically the split rule remains because the AL owners know nothing else at this point and like the rule while the majority of NL ones still don't. Talk about how much the union does or doesn't want it or what they'd give up to keep it is purely speculation at this point as it's a topic that never even comes up in CBA negotiations.

MFS62 Jul 30 2018 02:12 AM Re: Youth baseball, modern pitching trends, and the DH. Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 30 2018 01:56 PM

dgwphotography wrote: Want to increase speed of play? Call the regulation strike zone from nipples to knees. Re; Increasing speed of play- I was at a AA game today - New Hampshire (Jays farm) at Hartford (Rockies farm). They use a 20 second pitch clock. But when the pitcher gets into the set position, the clock was turned off. I didn't notice any abuses of this (pitchers coming to a set, then holding the ball for a long time waiting for a sign or looking back a runner). Bottom line, it worked. What made the game last a long time were the endless silly promotions every half inning Mascot races, product races, etc. I guess they think they need to entertain the kids, but the players and fans were getting itchy by the fifth inning. OE: I've copied some of this post into my thread in the On The Road Again forum) Later

d'Kong76 Jul 30 2018 03:00 AM Re: Youth baseball, modern pitching trends, and the DH.

Minor league games are like The Gong Show. You often have to time your concession-breaks and pee-times to miss as much nonsense as possible.

Edgy MD Jul 30 2018 11:59 AM Re: Youth baseball, modern pitching trends, and the DH.

I like the between-innings goofiness. It gives you a good look at the small town you're visiting. On the other hand, I like The Gong Show.

MFS62 Jul 30 2018 12:53 PM Re: Youth baseball, modern pitching trends, and the DH. Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 30 2018 01:56 PM

Edgy MD wrote: I like the between-innings goofiness. It gives you a good look at the small town you're visiting. . Small town? Hartford is the state Capital, so I had to look that up. Population 124,000 (2018 number), so "small" depends on your measuring stick. I've moved the rest of this post to the On The Road Again forum. Later

Ceetar Jul 30 2018 01:17 PM Re: Youth baseball, modern pitching trends, and the DH.

it seems almost a given that the DH is going to happen along with expansion (And possibly some sort of realignment associated with that). Personally I hope it's 4 teams (2 in say, Mexico, 1 in southwestern canada to help travel considerations all around) but either way that's 50-100 more player jobs, and it's going to shift the percentage of revenue going to the players at least for a few years. (Or maybe not. Do two new teams generate 200 million in revenue for the league? they might..) Might serve to dilute to the pitcher pool some, which might help balls in play if that's a concern. We might actually get more playoffs this way. I don't see MLB wanting to abandon the one-game wild card thing so I think you gotta keep the division even. I'd favor four 8 team divisions over 8 4 team ones, but I can see them going the NFL way and it'll make some weird divisions and a lot of teeth gnashing over some division winners in the future. But byes don't really work in baseball. But with 2 8 team divisions you might have to eliminate 'winning the division' as super meaningful. NHL style with the top 3 winning? four wildcards (per league) they each play each other in a 1-game elimination and then play the division winner?