Master Index of Archived Threads


Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm Aug 06 2018 11:26 AM

There will be a lot of rumors over the next few months. Let's start with this: Nick Cafardo, The Boston Globe wrote: Ben Cherington is being mentioned often as a top candidate for the Mets' GM job. He hasn't been eager to jump back into the fire, enjoying his role in Toronto. Is the Mets' job the one to jump at? One of the problems candidates and those who work with the Mets have mentioned is working for the Wilpon family. The Mets don't appear to be considering Omar Minaya, John Ricco, and J.P. Ricciardi, who are running the baseball operation as Sandy Alderson undergoes cancer treatments. Also mentioned for the job are Orioles GM Dan Duquette, former Dodgers GM Ned Colletti, and former Red Sox scouting director Jared Porter, who is now with Diamondbacks.

Lefty Specialist Aug 06 2018 11:32 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

One of the problems candidates and those who work with the Mets have mentioned is working for the Wilpon family. Says it all. Baseball people know what a shitshow this franchise is. They won't want to get involved. I'm sure they'll find somebody dumb enough, though.

Edgy MD Aug 06 2018 11:34 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Tommy Tanous! Josh Byrnes! LEIGH CASTERGINE!

d'Kong76 Aug 06 2018 11:45 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

My only early guess is it will likely be someone from the B list if not C. No one from the A list is going to come here without a solid big-market budget to work with and full autonomy. Like Big Bill said, you want me to make the dinner you have let me buy the groceries.

Edgy MD Aug 06 2018 11:51 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

He may have had his arm twisted by MLB, but it's hard to view Sandy as anything but an A-lister, and he certainly didn't have the banks open for him when he arrived. I think any number of people will be interested. The jobs are too hard to come by and no few of them will come with smaller budgets than the Mets throw around. And I imagine heavy handed owners and presidents abound also.

d'Kong76 Aug 06 2018 12:03 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Things are different now, open up the wallet or get out of Dodge.

Ceetar Aug 06 2018 12:05 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Edgy MD wrote: He may have had his arm twisted by MLB, but it's hard to view Sandy as anything but an A-lister, and he certainly didn't have the banks open for him when he arrived. I think any number of people will be interested. The jobs are too hard to come by and no few of them will come with smaller budgets than the Mets throw around. And I imagine heavy handed owners and presidents abound also. I don't think we've actually gotten clarity on that first part have we? We knew about Madoff but the lawsuit and frozen assets and the like didn't come until after Alderson was hired. Maybe he knew, maybe it ended up being worse than he thought. I mean, the Mets are roughly 12th. They spend 150 million or so, which is what, 70% of cap? They've got a lot of money coming off two years into the new GMs tenure, plus certainly the possibility they'll spend more in the interim. There's no reason someone wouldn't want that job. And sketchily written grammar about working for the Wilpons? What does that mean? All GMs have to work with the owners, and many are much less susceptible to good pitches than the Wilpons. Like, you know they've been convinced to sign all manner of players like Beltran, Bay, Santana, Wright, Cespedes, etc. Maybe some of those are bad signings, but a new GM would simply think "well, if they can be convinced to sign some of these guys, if I make the case for X good player, they'll surely come around." And beyond that, you'd obviously ask in the interview. If Jeff says "we'll see where we are in 2021 after Wright and Cespedes are off the books, in the interim try to be creative with 150 and midseason acquisitions with Wright/Cespedes insurance money if they don't get activated" then you can decline the job, but you'll still listen. Too many Mets employees seem to stick around and or come back for it to be that toxic a work place.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 06 2018 12:18 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

The Mets aren't 12th. They're bottom third. Insurance is covering a huge chunk of Wright's and Cespedes's salaries and quite frankly, I'm not even sure that what the Mets are actually paying out is more than $100M. Now if you wanna pretend, like Jeff Wilpon does, that there's no insurance for those players, then yeah, the Mets are 12th. 12th for America's largest market. Wright and Cespedes are pretty much off the books right now, as I write this post.

Ceetar Aug 06 2018 12:42 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: The Mets aren't 12th. They're bottom third. Insurance is covering a huge chunk of Wright's and Cespedes's salaries and quite frankly, I'm not even sure that what the Mets are actually paying out is more than $100M. Now if you wanna pretend, like Jeff Wilpon does, that there's no insurance for those players, then yeah, the Mets are 12th. 12th for America's largest market. Wright and Cespedes are pretty much off the books right now, as I write this post. 1. That money counts against the salary cap and they do in fact have to pay it, and hope to recoup some of it, later on. 2. They SPENT that money with the intention of, you know, paying it. Being able to spend said money is what we're concerned with when discussing a GM. 3. That money is not 'off the books'. Cespedes could be back by the all-star break. I know we pretend Wright's dead, but he's not, and is actively trying to play again.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 06 2018 01:01 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I guarantee you that the Mets will in fact recoup that money. And I hate to be the one breaking it to you, but Wright's never coming back. First of all, this attempted "comeback" is probably half a charade at least, because maybe Wright's kind of a naif who isn't as hardened as he should be and might actually be worried that there might be people out there who think he took the money and ran. And even if by some miracle, he might one day be able to plausibly play, there's no way the Mets let it happen if it risks their insurance coverage just so that Wrjght might suck for a few games and have to shut it down again. And stop sticking up for the fucking Wilpons, you maniac.

Ceetar Aug 06 2018 01:12 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I guarantee you that the Mets will in fact recoup that money. And I hate to be the one breaking it to you, but Wright's never coming back. First of all, this attempted "comeback" is probably half a charade at least, because maybe Wright's kind of a naif who isn't as hardened as he should be and might actually be worried that there might be people out there who think he took the money and ran. And even if by some miracle, he might one day be able to plausibly play, there's no way the Mets let it happen. They're not risking their insurance coverage so that Wrjght might suck for a few games and have to shut it down again. And stop sticking up for the fucking Wilpons, you maniac. I'm sticking up for the damn facts and the search for the real ones, not knee-jerk conspiracy reactions that aren't based in reality. So let's throw aside your "Jeff will personally Misery David Wright before letting him play again" conspiracy and think about it. He's legitimately on the baseball field doing baseball things. If you believe that David really does want to play again (and if you don't, have you not been watching him ever?) he can force that issue. If he gets medical clearance the CBA basically demands that he be activated after 30 days of rehab. The Mets are not going to barricade him a closet and assert that he had a setback without his consent. I'm not going to pretend to know what his prognosis is from my couch. He's standing on field now, is it really that much of a stretch to believe he could play for a few innings at a time in meaningless September games on an expanded roster even if he's bad at it? They recoup 75% of his DL time, but if he plays three weeks at the end of September that'll cost 'em a million or two more maybe? They might even recoup some of THAT via ticket sales if people are interested in a Wright swan song? Regardless of your confidence that neither will ever play baseball again and it's all sunk money that insurance will recoup, that's not how budgeting works. They have to outlay that money. I don't know what the process is for the insurance (noone bothers asking) do they get it back in a lump sum at the end? do they submit insurance paperwork every pay period with "Wright out 15/15 days" and get a refund? That's the best case, because if means if you get to Spring Training and Wright is not even pretend-healthy and can sorta budget that first 5 million of April/May without risk. But you never know what magical cure/steroid/cream/injection Wright could stumble upon to come back and play. That's not how budgets are made. you don't have to like it, agree with it, but that's how it is. It still counts against the salary cap, and arguing about that money is pointless, you can scream about the 60 million inbetween the cap and the Mets payroll though, so stick with that.

Edgy MD Aug 06 2018 01:20 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

There's a salary cap?

Benjamin Grimm Aug 06 2018 01:21 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I think he's referring to the point where the luxury tax kicks in.

Ceetar Aug 06 2018 01:53 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Indeed. If the top teams are going to salary dump to get under it, it's basically a salary cap.

d'Kong76 Aug 06 2018 02:04 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Luxury tax/salary cap, Wilpons won't sniff it no matter what one labels it.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 06 2018 02:05 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Unless they call it the "Jackie Robinson Limit".

seawolf17 Aug 06 2018 02:14 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Unless they call it the "Jackie Robinson Limit". BOC

smg58 Aug 06 2018 04:24 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I'm sure the Mets, like every team, have lost more money over the years on insurance policies than they've collected. Otherwise, what's the point in insurance companies selling them? The policies protect you from big salaries going out the window in the short term, but they don't turn a profit for anybody in the long term other than insurance companies.

smg58 Aug 06 2018 04:25 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

And they probably lost a chunk of it getting Cespedes to play that one game.

Fman99 Aug 06 2018 07:11 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

MFS62 Aug 06 2018 08:00 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Here's a candidate that checks off a lot of boxes. 1) Front Office administrative experience 2) MLB/ Commissioner's office experience. 3) "Minority" candidate (TWO EEO boxes checked) 4) Fred Wilpon's love for everything Dodgers 5) Highly respected 6) Probably will take a low salary to just get a chance 7) Has been discussed here before Only thing is, not much experience in the player part of the job. A candidate worthy of serious consideration? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Ng Discuss among yourselves. Later

Ceetar Aug 07 2018 07:15 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

smg58 wrote: I'm sure the Mets, like every team, have lost more money over the years on insurance policies than they've collected. Otherwise, what's the point in insurance companies selling them? The policies protect you from big salaries going out the window in the short term, but they don't turn a profit for anybody in the long term other than insurance companies. meh, those insurance companies are probably also insured.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 10 2018 07:18 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

In the nascent stages of the Mets’ general manager search, Gary LaRocque’s name is among those receiving consideration. LaRocque, a key component of the Cardinals front office for the past decade-plus, is hardly a whiz kid at 65, but is well respected within the game and would fit the profile of what the Mets are thought to be seeking in their next GM. Full article: Cardinals executive on radar in Mets’ GM search

Edgy MD Aug 10 2018 07:25 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

That would be an interesting back-to-the-future move. He was the scouting director when Reyes and Wright signed. Among, you know, other things.

bmfc1 Aug 10 2018 07:28 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

There is thought among team officials that perhaps the Mets became too analytics driven in recent seasons under Sandy Alderson’s watch, and a veteran leader with a pure baseball background would help shift the organization toward the center. Dear God.

seawolf17 Aug 10 2018 08:29 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

There is thought among team officials that perhaps the Mets became too analytics driven in recent seasons under Sandy Alderson’s watch, and a veteran leader with a pure baseball background would help shift the organization toward the center. TOO ANALYTICS DRIVEN!?!?!?! /flips table /points to Jose Reyes' name on roster /flips table again

Ceetar Aug 10 2018 08:37 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Don't get angry at random allusions Mike Puma of all people is making. That sentence is such bullshit considering Alderson fits the second better than the first. Was it Puma that reported the guy complaining about not knowing who he was reporting to when the Mets brought back Minaya?

Ashie62 Aug 10 2018 08:25 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

We will likely get am analytics robot as GM.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Aug 19 2018 05:09 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

incredible but incredibly unsurprising article by Jon Heyman reports Fred wants Omar and Jeff may not. also, the decision to bring back Omar -- very unpopular with the current FO, was all Fred and came against the recommendations of Alderson, who wanted Ben Cherington for that role. This is why the succession is so screwed up-- Fucking old man Fred cannot stop himself from screwing up the club.

smg58 Aug 19 2018 07:00 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

There shouldn't be a problem with the analytics per se, but you can make the argument that Alderson was married to Moneyball 1.0 and the analytics have evolved (particularly in regard to how to pitch and defend against all-or-nothing swingers).

Frayed Knot Aug 19 2018 07:12 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Even Buster Olney chimes in on the chain of command issues/questions and its effect on future GM'dom.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Aug 19 2018 07:13 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

but Omar wasn't even up to volume 1! its incredibly irresponsible to overlook that just because Fred is into the guy.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 04 2018 04:58 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Joel Sherman wrote: The Mets’ rough timeline for naming a general-manager successor to Sandy Alderson is to have a list of roughly 10 to 12 candidates by the end of this month, then pare that further to perhaps a half-dozen to be interviewed and have someone in place prior to the Nov. 4-8 GM meetings. The names on radar in Mets’ complex, intriguing GM search Sherman's article goes on to list a wide variety of names.

Edgy MD Sep 04 2018 09:10 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

This happened with the interviews that produced the Sandy Alderson hire. It's really awkward interviewing other GMs' lieutenants while their teams are in the post-season trying to win a championship.

Frayed Knot Sep 05 2018 08:08 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

From that Sherman article: "Those close to Minaya insist he does not want the GM job, but it is clear that whoever does get the position is going to inherit Minaya as an executive with — at the very least — significant say in player personnel, and someone who has the ear and trust of ownership." So if Mr. Potential GM Candidate doesn't want Minaya then he disqualifies himself from the position regardless of other assets/deficits? Either that, I guess, or he shuts up and grudgingly accepts a right-hand/rival whom he doesn't want who could potentially steer Eff & Jeff towards a move in direct opposition to his choice.

Ceetar Sep 05 2018 08:16 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

nobodies proposing that any of the three existing guys are going to be fired so of course they have the 'trust' of ownership, or they wouldn't be here. No one's taking a job that comes with the caveat, "we might just let Omar make the decisions anyway" No one's turning away advice either. It's going to be framed as "We hired Omar to do X. We trust him in this regard, and hope you'll take his immense knowledge and talent into consideration." This isn't abnormal, within baseball or outside of it. Whenever a new exec comes on board he or she has existing employees with highly regarded opinions to deal with. I imagine at first new hires get a little longer lease to 'work their magic', and the meddling comes later, but we'll see I guess.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 05 2018 08:16 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Yeah, between this (if it's true) and the promise that Mickey would be back next year (if it's true) they're making this position less desirable. It will be harder to lure a top candidate away from a good position in another organization.

Frayed Knot Sep 05 2018 08:34 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Ceetar wrote: It's going to be framed as "We hired Omar to do X. We trust him in this regard, and hope you'll take his immense knowledge and talent into consideration." But it's one thing for the new GM to take Omar's advice into consideration vs the Wilpons maybe going over the GM's head in favor of what Omar wants to do. What I think most gets the 'Pons into trouble is that they're stuck between wanting to hire a guy they can trust but then never quite letting go of the idea that at times they know better. That's what Steinbrenner used to do in the Bronx but his advancing age and Cashman having enough pull in the org to put his foot down eventually kept (at least most of) the decisions from being ping-pong-ed between the Bronx & Tampa depending on who whispered into George's ear most recently. Not coincidentally (seeing as how he and George were fast friends) I suspect this is much of what goes on in 1600 Penn Ave these days as well. Take the training wheels off and trust that the new guy isn't going to crash his brand new shiny bike by December 26th. And if you're not sure he can manage that then don't hire him.

Edgy MD Sep 05 2018 08:45 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I guess most management hires come with underlings who you didn't choose but were assured you'd accept their presence. Omar has the right idea in not throwing his hat into the ring. If he got the job, he'd be a lightning rod of controversy from day 1. Plus, lieutenants last longer than generals. Bud Harrelson said (only somewhat jokingly) that taking the job of manager was the dumbest move he ever made — that he could've stayed as a coach and become one of those institutional guys that never moves on through several regime changes.

Centerfield Sep 05 2018 09:08 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

But it's one thing for the new GM to take Omar's advice into consideration vs the Wilpons maybe going over the GM's head in favor of what Omar wants to do. Yup. What I think most gets the 'Pons into trouble is that they're stuck between wanting to hire a guy they can trust but then never quite letting go of the idea that at times they know better. That's what Steinbrenner used to do in the Bronx but his advancing age and Cashman having enough pull in the org to put his foot down eventually kept (at least most of) the decisions from being ping-pong-ed between the Bronx & Tampa depending on who whispered into George's ear most recently. Not coincidentally (seeing as how he and George were fast friends) I suspect this is much of what goes on in 1600 Penn Ave these days as well. Take the training wheels off and trust that the new guy isn't going to crash his brand new shiny bike by December 26th. And if you're not sure he can manage that then don't hire him. Yup. And give the new guy enough money to fund an adequate payroll. Sadly, I see little chance of any of this happening. Instead they will: *Hire another yes-man. *Muddle the chain of command by surrounding him with Minaya/Ricco/etc. *Meddle *Fund a mid market payroll and talk about how "Spending doesn't equate winning" *Point to the bounceback we've seen from Vargas, Bruce, Frazier and talk about how they will be strong pieces for next year's team. And if we can just stay healthy...

Ceetar Sep 05 2018 09:20 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: *Point to the bounceback we've seen from Vargas, Bruce, Frazier and talk about how they will be strong pieces for next year's team. And if we can just stay healthy... I mean, there _is_ value in players that are playing well right? The opposite is to just jettison everyone that underperforms for a bit.

Edgy MD Sep 05 2018 10:04 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I'm really surprised to read that Mark Shapiro is only 51. I don't think he's coming, but we'll see.

Frayed Knot Sep 05 2018 05:46 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Sherman's follow-up article on this topic.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 05 2018 06:41 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Frayed Knot wrote: Sherman's follow-up article on this topic. All Sherman does is get scoops and do bang-on analysis. To me that seems about an accurate a read on the Pons as possible, and far harder on out-of-touch Fred than on just-simply-unlikable Jeff.

MFS62 Sep 05 2018 07:11 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 05 2018 07:13 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: Sherman's follow-up article on this topic. Like I said (in another thread), a plan. With "what if this goes bad" contingencies. Later

Frayed Knot Sep 05 2018 07:13 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

But who's going to SHOW US THE PLAN ?!? Old timers here are chuckling right now

MFS62 Sep 05 2018 07:15 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Frayed Knot wrote: But who's going to SHOW US THE PLAN ?!? Old timers here are chuckling right now Old timers here? I joined two days after you did. Did I miss a thread about planning in those two days? Later

Frayed Knot Sep 05 2018 07:24 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I'm talking about those who go back to the old forum, the one that predated (and eventually caused) this one.

Frayed Knot Sep 05 2018 07:47 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Frayed Knot wrote: Sherman's follow-up article on this topic. All Sherman does is get scoops and do bang-on analysis. To me that seems about an accurate a read on the Pons as possible, and far harder on out-of-touch Fred than on just-simply-unlikable Jeff. Yeah, it may be fashionable for Met fans to convince themselves that the Wilpons are evil, or that they don't care, or that they'd prefer finishing 4th while making ten bucks to winning but only making five, but they're not doing themselves any favors by clinging to that. And of course nothing is easier than simply blaming everything that screws up on the rich guy's son, but that can be a misdirection as well.

MFS62 Sep 05 2018 08:09 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I asked a long time baseball fan pal in Canada about Mark Shapiro (as per Sherman's article). Here are his comments: The Mets are a large market team that spends like a small market team, so of course Shapiro's name has come up. He's a fine yes man who will toe the company line and never ask for anything more from ownership. He's built a solid career in baseball without really being a baseball guy. His strength is finding good qualified people to fill the roles underneath him, and being receptive to their ideas. There are a lot of people around MLB front offices who were once hired by Shapiro. His weakness is his loyalty. Most of his good hires move on to higher roles elsewhere, and he'll stick with his failures like Ross Atkins. That guy has never shown a competence to do anything, and it's led to him a GM role under Shapiro (he built his resumé as farm director of a system that got little to nothing for years by drafting advanced skill/low ceiling talent like Jeremy Sowers, Jeremy Guthrie and Beau Mills). The Indians were fortunate that Chris Antonetti also showed a loyalty to Cleveland. He was the baseball/sabermetric mind in the Indians front office, even while he was an assistant for years under Shapiro. He passed up multiple opportunities to become GM elsewhere, and the Indians were rewarded when Shapiro left town. I'm thrilled with how it worked out for Cleveland, but a team hiring Shapiro could do worse (although it could also do better)... just hope he builds his staff from scratch, or has a young up-and-comer under his wing to bring along. Shapiro is considered new school, but it's not that he's really an advanced stats junkie himself, he's just open-minded to the approach and will lean on his assistants. It's a more democratic/less authoritarian approach than others (as opposed to, I dunno... maybe Dombrowski?). If Atkins is also packing his bags, be worried. A yes man who will toe the company line, who hires good young people for the organization. Not bad. Later

Frayed Knot Sep 07 2018 03:06 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Sherman's march (on this topic) continues.

Centerfield Sep 11 2018 08:27 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Civil War! https://nypost.com/2018/09/10/the-inter ... gm-search/ A civil war of sorts of could be unfolding at the Mets’ highest level, with team owner Fred Wilpon and COO Jeff Wilpon disagreeing on a path to follow in hiring Sandy Alderson’s replacement to lead the front office. As The Post reported last month, the elder Wilpon favors an experienced baseball person with roots in scouting and player development over the industry trend of hiring younger executives with a slant toward analytics. The younger Wilpon would prefer a more analytics-savvy general manager, according to sources. Um. I agree with Jeff Wilpon?

Edgy MD Sep 11 2018 08:51 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Better call Saul.

Ceetar Sep 11 2018 08:55 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

does minority owner Jeff Wilpon get a say? I thought those were non-voting shares. i kid. but you know what would help this 'disagreement'? bringing in a few of each 'type' and interviewing them, and then getting together as a group and choosing one. My money's on that happening.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 11 2018 08:59 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I agree. I have to think that there's somebody out there who can combine those skills. Can't you understand and utilize analytics while also having a command of scouting and player development? Are the two things really that incompatible?

batmagadanleadoff Sep 11 2018 09:07 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I agree. I have to think that there's somebody out there who can combine those skills. Can't you understand and utilize analytics while also having a command of scouting and player development? Are the two things really that incompatible? Of course they're not incompatible. But maybe stable genius eff Wilpon, who has the final say, thinks that analytics are a hindrance?

Edgy MD Sep 11 2018 09:09 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Writers have to write stuff, so we've probably got a case of a guy getting wind of a modest difference in preference and blowing it up into a fierce struggle of incompatible and intractable wills. This is classick rainy-day copy.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 11 2018 09:10 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: Benjamin Grimm wrote: I agree. I have to think that there's somebody out there who can combine those skills. Can't you understand and utilize analytics while also having a command of scouting and player development? Are the two things really that incompatible? Of course they're not incompatible. But maybe stable genius eff Wilpon, who has the final say, thinks that analytics are a hindrance? I read a quote yesterday where Wilpon Sr. is obsessed with the Yankees and what they do. No surprise, there. But the punchline was that Wilpon doesn't understand and has no clue as to what the Yankees are doing.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 11 2018 09:23 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

It's always been very clear to me that Fred is the biggest moron in the organization and it's almost always his interference and incompetence that fucks up the club. Regular Johnny Lunchbuckets out there have trouble distinguishing those characteristics (Fred's entire career is about having "relationships" mainly with Bernie Madoff and valuing "feel" and appearance over substance and results) from the completely different set bad characteristics possessed by Jeff (snotty, insensitive, autocratic, undeserving, and probably, conflicted by having to appease his crazy old man).

batmagadanleadoff Sep 11 2018 09:27 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: It's always been very clear to me that Fred is the biggest moron in the organization and it's almost always his interference and incompetence that fucks up the club. Regular Johnny Lunchbuckets out there have trouble distinguishing those characteristics (Fred's entire career is about having "relationships" mainly with Bernie Madoff and valuing "feel" and appearance over substance and results) from the completely different set bad characteristics possessed by Jeff (snotty, insensitive, autocratic, undeserving, and probably, conflicted by having to appease his crazy old man). Hey, kid: I like your style! Bashing eff Wilpon and those hideous Citi Field scoreboards in less than 24 hours. I think you're gonna go places.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 11 2018 09:32 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: It's always been very clear to me that Fred is the biggest moron in the organization and it's almost always his interference and incompetence that fucks up the club. Maybe we need to plant a resistor in the organization to take papers off of Fred's desk.

Edgy MD Sep 11 2018 09:34 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Don't think for a minute there isn't one or more there already.

Centerfield Sep 11 2018 09:41 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: It's always been very clear to me that Fred is the biggest moron in the organization and it's almost always his interference and incompetence that fucks up the club. Regular Johnny Lunchbuckets out there have trouble distinguishing those characteristics (Fred's entire career is about having "relationships" mainly with Bernie Madoff and valuing "feel" and appearance over substance and results) from the completely different set bad characteristics possessed by Jeff (snotty, insensitive, autocratic, undeserving, and probably, conflicted by having to appease his crazy old man). Imagine if all of Jeff's shortcomings are fueled by insecurities fostered by his old man? How crazy would it be if Fred died, and suddenly Jeff became a thoughtful, analytical, sensitive owner.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 11 2018 10:06 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Well the Post article if accurate should be very distressing as it states pretty plainly that Incompetent Fred will have the say. You may recall the only time a good GM was named in the Fred Era it was basically installed by MLB in the style of an aggreived lender.

Edgy MD Sep 11 2018 10:55 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

On the other hand, I tended to think Omar was installed by MLB as well. In a different sense of the word, anyhow.

Centerfield Sep 11 2018 11:32 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Rumors are circulating about Mark Shapiro. And it's interesting the opinions on Mark Shapiro, depending on who you listen to. Andy Martino, writing for SNY, a guy who is paid by the Wilpons: Shapiro, who publicly reaffirmed his commitment to Toronto after his name first surfaced in connection to the Mets job, is close with Omar Minaya. His father, highly respected veteran agent Ron Shapiro, is friendly with Fred Wilpon. Shapiro was once GM and president of the Cleveland Indians -- an organization steeped in analytics. His resume and stature in the game lend him the gravitas to replace a towering figure like Sandy Alderson. https://www.sny.tv/mets/news/mets-gm-se ... /294168810 Steeped in analytics! Stature and gravitas! Sign me up! But wait, what do those who are not on the payroll say? When Shapiro took over — joining new owner Paul Dolan — the Indians were a team that won 90 or so games a year, had attendance of over 3 million a year and boasted a $93 million payroll. Going forward payroll was slashed, bottoming out at $34 million in 2003 and not returning to the level he inherited until 2016. Attendance fell sharply along with the Indians win total during that time too. You’d think that’d be a bad thing but Shapiro earned a promotion for that, taking over as the team’s president following the 2010 season. The promotion implied to many that, to Paul Dolan, keeping costs low was more important than winning baseball games and making fans happy. Well, that doesn't sound as good. But I'm sure it's just a coincidence that immediately after he went to the Blue Jays, the Indians won the division twice and are now on their way to a possible third. But he did great in Toronto right? The Jays were stuck with a lot of carryover money in 2016 and 2017, but they reduced payroll heading into this season and, thanks to some big trades and expiring contracts, about 2/3 of their guaranteed commitments are disappearing once the season ends. Their 2019 payroll is likely to be vastly, vastly lower than it has been for the past several years....It’s too early to say if the Blue Jays plan to add free agents or other established big league talent to complement those prospects or if, as happened in Cleveland in the early-to-mid 2000s, a bunch of third and fourth place finishes and losing records are in Toronto’s future. What we do know is this: the Blue Jays have gotten worse in each of the past three years, they will likely be bad for the next couple of years and their payroll is spiraling down as well. Shapiro is spending a lot of time focusing on increasing the Blue Jays revenue — ticket prices went up this year — and his job is in no danger whatsoever. Indeed, he’s now a hot property for the Mets. https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2018/09/11/of ... k-shapiro/ Oh. Truth is, at the end of the day, it's likely not going to matter. Whether it's Shapiro, or someone like Shapiro. Whoever it is, payroll will likely not go up enough to make a difference, and the Wilpons, Jeff and/or Fred, will meddle enough to fuck it all up anyway.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 11 2018 11:43 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Well, would you rather have wins or stature and gravitas? Wins are better than stature. And wins are better than gravitas. But stature and gravitas? Sign me up!

Centerfield Sep 11 2018 12:28 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I know that you're kidding, but it's surprising how many baseball fans lose sight of the fact that winning is the ultimate goal. I found the entire article informative, but this part stuck with me. Craig Calcaterra wrote: Sure, if you are the Yankees, the Red Sox, the Cubs or the Dodgers you pretty much have to be in the business of credibly fighting for a World Series championship, but the rest of baseball is a bit more flexible about such things. We live in an age in which keeping payroll low, eschewing expensive veterans in favor of cheap young players and, in some cases, tanking is pretty darn desirable for baseball owners and the sorts of folks who take baseball owners’ side, philosophically speaking. Everyone would like to win, but if you’re not gonna win, raking in revenue while not spending much of it on baseball players is considered a very, very noble thing. If you can do it without catching hell, all the better.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Sep 11 2018 12:31 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I don't sense there are fans who root for revenue generation. They're not investors. I do think there's a class of fan that got hardons based on how efficiently their favorite team spends.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 11 2018 12:34 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I can't imagine that those "sorts of folks" are fans of a particular team. I can see how an objective observer or an investor may understand that philosophy, but a fan should only care about revenue in the sense that it can provide the resources to build a winning team.

d'Kong76 Sep 11 2018 12:43 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Craig Calcaterra wrote: Everyone would like to win, but if you’re not gonna win, raking in revenue while not spending much of it on baseball players is considered a very, very noble thing. If you can do it without catching hell, all the better. This is like some 'some fans are from Venus and some are from Mars' kinda moment or something? I'd like to hear from just one fan that finds nobility in losing while still turning a good buck off it for Joe Ownerpants.

Valadius Sep 11 2018 01:07 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Edgy MD Sep 11 2018 01:09 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

[fimg=600:3rnoist6]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CuQyWxAWYAA06b6.jpg[/fimg:3rnoist6]

Ceetar Sep 11 2018 01:49 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

d'Kong76 wrote: Craig Calcaterra wrote: Everyone would like to win, but if you’re not gonna win, raking in revenue while not spending much of it on baseball players is considered a very, very noble thing. If you can do it without catching hell, all the better. This is like some 'some fans are from Venus and some are from Mars' kinda moment or something? I'd like to hear from just one fan that finds nobility in losing while still turning a good buck off it for Joe Ownerpants. not 'fans'. That's rich people inner circle stuff. All 30* owners would love the attention and praise that comes with winning, but all 30 would take regular profits every year over a guaranteed win this season. ALL OF THEM. These guys probably had a party when the government cut taxes and high-fived. They sing the praises of their slave labor minor league and 6 year service time agreements any chance they get. The whole lot of them. Angry Mets fans rant about MLB forcing the Wilpons out, but the entire league probably felt more sympathy for them than you feel for your coworker when he takes a week off cause his father died. It's why this second half is kinda important to the Mets. Them making the case for being within a reasonable shot is what will convince the Wilpons to go for it, as the expected return on going from average to reliably good is worth the investment. We just need someone in the interview to make that case, and to point out how a team meandering around .500 is going to be forced into overpaying long term for Thor, deGrom, etc without noticeable gain unless they invest everywhere. It's pretty obvious that they, and we, are not going to have a complete rebuild, and that they're going to have to continue to throw good money after bad year after year unless they bulk up now. And i truly believe there are guys out there that are going to make that case, make it convincingly, and get hired.

Centerfield Sep 11 2018 01:54 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I do think there's a class of fan that got hardons based on how efficiently their favorite team spends. Yup. My philosophy is this. I want the Mets to win on a sustained level and to ultimately win a championship. Whatever maximizes their chances to do this, for the most part, I'm on board. Because there are mountains of evidence that say spending more increases a team's chances at winning, I want my team to spend more. Because there are mountains of evidence that say the Wilpons are detrimental to winning, I'd like them gone. There is a large contingent of fans that, despite wanting to win, are completely indifferent to whether or not the Mets spend like a big market club. I don't really get why. Maybe they believe there is no actual advantage offered by spending? I don't know. If they do, then they're wrong. But more often than not I get the feeling they know the truth, but elect to use twisted logic to justify a logically unjustifiable position. *I'd rather they focus on scouting. (No one said they shouldn't do both) *Look at San Francisco, they have a huge payroll and they're terrible. (No one claimed spending would guarantee winning) *Look at Houston, they won it all with a mid-level payroll (No one claimed spending was a pre-requisite to winning.) Then there are some fans that want the Mets to win, but if it means spending lots of money, they'd rather not. Like JCL said, I guess they like the fact that their team wins with an economic disadvantage. I don't get this, but to each his own. At least their position is consistent. Then there are some fans that instinctively, without reason, take the side of ownership. They say questioning ownership is undermining your team. You'll hear stuff like "I'm a true fan" or "Hey, I just choose to believe". I don't really get this either.

A Boy Named Seo Sep 11 2018 02:00 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Back to Shapiro, the way he and the Jays handled Vlad Guerrerro Jr. makes me think he would fit in perfectly here. Vladdy destroyed AA (1.120 OPS) and AAA (.978 OPS), but the Jays wouldn't think of calling him up, even though Josh Donaldson (same position, since traded) could barely walk. The Union even put out a statement saying the Jays were manipulating service time to save $$ and Shapiro didn't bat an ey. Vladdy is young (19) but Ronald Acuna and Juan Soto have done alright for themselves at 19 and Guerrerro might be better than both. I fully get the service time argument from the team's side, but the financial motives to bury an elite player look pretty clear.

Edgy MD Sep 11 2018 02:04 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Big-name prospects forcibly held back from appearing until late May also kicks the Rookie of the Year race right in the teeth.

seawolf17 Sep 11 2018 02:09 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Right, but if one of our guys wins a ROY award, then they have to pay him more money. So that's a non-starter for the Wilpons.

Centerfield Sep 11 2018 02:09 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Edgy MD wrote: Big-name prospects forcibly held back from appearing until late May also kicks the Rookie of the Year race right in the teeth. I don't see a solution. Unless you say that a year of service time triggers no matter when you debut. I guess you can have a carve-out for September callups or something then.

Edgy MD Sep 11 2018 02:12 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I can see about 10 solutions. The main one is to end the six-years-of-control thing outright. Kill it with fire.

Frayed Knot Sep 12 2018 05:08 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Getting back to the supposed Eff & Jeff rift for a minute: The linked Puma article wasn't much of anything really, mostly just reiterating in short form what Sherman had written about more extensively a week or so earlier and linked a page or two earlier in this thread -- https://nypost.com/2018/09/05/what-wilp ... ets-to-win -- and it didn't around to the conclusion that Sherman did which is the need for a true baseball man to be installed between the 'Pons and their GM I'm not sure that a lot of fans outside of Chicago & Oakland realize, for instance, that Theo Epstein and Bill Beane aren't even GMs anymore. Both moved up to 'Club President' positions years ago and in turn hired their own GMs to do, well, GM stuff while they run the overall franchise and report to the owner(s). Not that every other club runs that way or needs to run that way to be successful, but when you've got owners with buttinski tendencies having a buffer would shield the GM from interference in day to day operations and, more importantly, would be the man to set the overall trend/philosophy/direction for the team. But there's little to indicate Fred is ready or willing to cede that kind of control and therein lies the problem: that you've got owners who think of themselves as baseball people as well and don't think they need someone to do what they feel they are already capable of doing themselves. Not that they're quite on a Jerry Jones/Cowboys kind of level (he's his own actual GM) but towards that end of the scale.

MFS62 Sep 12 2018 07:51 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

A Boy Named Seo wrote: Back to Shapiro, the way he and the Jays handled Vlad Guerrerro Jr. makes me think he would fit in perfectly here. You're not the only one: https://www.yahoo.com/sports/course-met ... 35371.html Later

Ceetar Sep 12 2018 08:12 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: There is a large contingent of fans that, despite wanting to win, are completely indifferent to whether or not the Mets spend like a big market club. I'm indifferent because I want to watch Mets baseball and how much they spend is so divorced from my enjoyment that it's hard to care much. I want them to bring in the right players, and it's not always straight cash. In fact it's rarely cash. It's evaluating needs and which players aren't going to break and a lot of luck involved in those too. I mean, I wanted the Mets to sign Yu Darvish, and I was skeptical about spending money on Arrieta. But the better move very well might've been Jhoulys Chacin. There was vicious attacks launched at the Mets for choosing Vargas over Arrieta or Darvish, for not winning the Ohtani sweepstakes, but no one even mentions Chacin, who costs the same as Vargas. (no one mentions the lefty aspect of Vargas, though I wonder if that played in) There's also the knowledge that teams that spend 'like a big market club' still do usually end up in a rebuild process when those mistakes they overpay for build up. You sign Darvish and he breaks and is added to the Cespedes and Wright contracts, and suddenly any owner is questioning spending more money that's going to get exponentially more expensive at the cap for possibly limited return is worth it, and then you're staring a rebuild in the face. Like going forward, the Mets should spend for Machado, it's a highly logical way to go, though it does require a few pivots with guys like Frazier. There ARE other avenues to success though, and if the Mets bring in players that I think will be fun to watch and give this team good chances to win, I'm going to enjoy 2019.

Centerfield Sep 12 2018 09:31 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Ceetar wrote: Centerfield wrote: There is a large contingent of fans that, despite wanting to win, are completely indifferent to whether or not the Mets spend like a big market club. I'm indifferent because I want to watch Mets baseball and how much they spend is so divorced from my enjoyment that it's hard to care much. I want them to bring in the right players, and it's not always straight cash. In fact it's rarely cash. It's evaluating needs and which players aren't going to break and a lot of luck involved in those too. I mean, I wanted the Mets to sign Yu Darvish, and I was skeptical about spending money on Arrieta. But the better move very well might've been Jhoulys Chacin. There was vicious attacks launched at the Mets for choosing Vargas over Arrieta or Darvish, for not winning the Ohtani sweepstakes, but no one even mentions Chacin, who costs the same as Vargas. (no one mentions the lefty aspect of Vargas, though I wonder if that played in) There's also the knowledge that teams that spend 'like a big market club' still do usually end up in a rebuild process when those mistakes they overpay for build up. You sign Darvish and he breaks and is added to the Cespedes and Wright contracts, and suddenly any owner is questioning spending more money that's going to get exponentially more expensive at the cap for possibly limited return is worth it, and then you're staring a rebuild in the face. Like going forward, the Mets should spend for Machado, it's a highly logical way to go, though it does require a few pivots with guys like Frazier. There ARE other avenues to success though, and if the Mets bring in players that I think will be fun to watch and give this team good chances to win, I'm going to enjoy 2019. Centerfield wrote: But more often than not I get the feeling they know the truth, but elect to use twisted logic to justify a logically unjustifiable position.

Ceetar Sep 12 2018 09:47 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

"The total size of the payroll is so divorced from my enjoyment" is neither twisted logic, or logically unjustified. It's subjective and an opinion.

Centerfield Sep 12 2018 09:54 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

If I engage you in this, do you promise to answer honestly?

Ceetar Sep 12 2018 09:59 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I always answer honestly.

Centerfield Sep 12 2018 10:29 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

You said you want to watch Mets baseball, do you also want the Mets to win?

Ceetar Sep 12 2018 11:32 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: You said you want to watch Mets baseball, do you also want the Mets to win? I mean, yes, that's more fun.

Centerfield Sep 12 2018 12:00 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Do you believe that a team with a higher payroll is at an advantage when it comes to winning in the regular season? *Note that I am not asking if higher payroll guarantees anything, nor am I asking if higher payroll is more important than any other factor. Just simply, do you think it's an advantage or not.

Ceetar Sep 12 2018 12:02 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: Do you believe that a team with a higher payroll is at an advantage when it comes to winning in the regular season? *Note that I am not asking if higher payroll guarantees anything, nor am I asking if higher payroll is more important than any other factor. Just simply, do you think it's an advantage or not. in any given season? no.

Centerfield Sep 12 2018 01:10 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Well, that was fast. In that case, I don't think we can have a productive discussion. We disagree on a fundamental premise. I believe increasing payroll gives teams an advantage in the regular season. I think the advantage has been well-established over the years. Although there have been discussions about how significant the advantage may be, I don't think any one in good faith believes that payroll and winning are independent of each other. If you honestly believe that, then this explains why we cannot have a productive conversation.

Ceetar Sep 12 2018 01:39 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

because it's fundamentally wrong on a season to season basis. Like, how much does Jacob deGrom make? How much does Yu Darvish make? How much does David Wright make? Shohei Ohtani? The best players in baseball are rarely the ones being paid the most money. The Giants have the ~2nd highest payroll They're 68-78. On the talent, they don't have an advantage against roughly anyone. The Rays have roughly the lowest 25 man payroll, but they're the 5th? best team in the AL. Just strictly on "who's going to win games this year?" PECOTA projected the Giants and Rays to be roughly the same. The Mets could give say, Alex Rodriguez 102 million dollars to play third next year, and they'd have the highest payroll and still not have an advantage over most teams. The Angels payroll ,according to https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/, is roughly the same as the Yankees. Does that mean they're roughly equivalent? What did the Nationals get out of their high payroll this year? average stuff? Despite the second best pitcher in baseball? If the Mets and the Nats played each other 162 times, would there be a meaningful advantage to the Nationals? probably not. to sum up, Payroll size is a symptom of a good team, but it's not the cause of a good team. It's like pitcher's wins. Typically a good pitcher will rack up a lot of them, but it's not always true, and it's not really measuring what we want to measure.

Centerfield Sep 12 2018 03:27 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Truly you have a dizzying intellect. I don't think my question is all that complicated. Let's break it down to a simple scenario. You are appointed the GM of Los Angeles Angels. You are told that you have to make the playoffs in 2019. If you do not, they will cut off your left hand. You are given two choices for your budget. Choice A: $90 Million Choice B: $180 Million. Do you pick Choice A, Choice B, or are you indifferent. Remember, you pledged to answer honestly.

Ceetar Sep 12 2018 05:49 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Obivously B. That's a different question though. I wouldn't wager my hand that a shadow team doing the exact same with choice A wouldn't end up being the better team.

Centerfield Sep 12 2018 08:24 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Why would you pick B?

Ceetar Sep 13 2018 07:29 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: Why would you pick B? I interpreted your question as a one-year, one-off type thing. A use it or lose it type situation, so why not use it? Sign two guys to fill every hole and then move 'em around or cut the ones that suck. outbid everyone by 25% for the piece you want. etc. That's not how a baseball team is run of course, and if you then told me my payroll has to be the same in 2020, I'm probably not spending anywhere near all of it in 2019.

Centerfield Sep 13 2018 07:35 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Does the extra $90 million increase the chances you make the playoffs in 2019?

Ceetar Sep 13 2018 07:42 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: Does the extra $90 million increase the chances you make the playoffs in 2019? Probably? It's impossible to tell for sure unless you're outlining the exact players. Rampant spending certainly increases your chances of signing the players you want. But signing Machado for $150 million instead of $120 doesn't make him 25% better. It's the getting the player that actually raises the playoff odds. So sure, yes, if we're only examining it in this very granular spot, having $90 more to toss around increases your chances at making the playoffs.

Centerfield Sep 13 2018 08:04 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Ok. Same scenario. You are the GM of the Angels, your left hand is on the line etc. You are now told to make the playoffs 3 out of the next five years. Your choices for a budget are $900 million over those five years, or $450 over those five years. You can mix and match that money however you see fit. Do you: 1. Still take the $900 million over the $450? 2. Does the extra $90 million each year (average) help you in attaining your goal of 3 playoff berths (or more) over the next 5 years?

Ceetar Sep 13 2018 08:21 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

yes, obviously, you haven't introduced any of the downside yet. Where's the part where they demand you trade your nearly as valuable infielder in order to afford that stud outfielder?

Centerfield Sep 13 2018 08:37 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Ceetar wrote: yes, obviously, you haven't introduced any of the downside yet. Where's the part where they demand you trade your nearly as valuable infielder in order to afford that stud outfielder? Nobody is making any demands on you. Remember, you are the GM of the Angels, not the Mets. All you are getting is extra money each year. So if you agree that extra money is an advantage to making the playoffs in one year, and extra money is an advantage to making the playoffs in a 5 year period, are you willing to agree that generally, extra money is an advantage?

seawolf17 Sep 13 2018 08:49 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Ceetar wrote: yes, obviously, you haven't introduced any of the downside yet. Where's the part where they demand you trade your nearly as valuable infielder in order to afford that stud outfielder? I don't think anyone's saying that more money is *everything.* But having a larger budget is unquestionably a benefit. I can't see how it makes any sense to say different.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 13 2018 08:52 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Yes, it's the budget that's important, not necessarily the payroll. It's certainly possible for a team to be fortunate enough to win with a primarily young and cheap roster. But success is more likely when a team has the budget flexibility to add players or swallow bad contracts when necessary.

Ceetar Sep 13 2018 09:17 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: Ceetar wrote: yes, obviously, you haven't introduced any of the downside yet. Where's the part where they demand you trade your nearly as valuable infielder in order to afford that stud outfielder? Nobody is making any demands on you. Remember, you are the GM of the Angels, not the Mets. All you are getting is extra money each year. So if you agree that extra money is an advantage to making the playoffs in one year, and extra money is an advantage to making the playoffs in a 5 year period, are you willing to agree that generally, extra money is an advantage? Or the Yankees I guess. I think I already stated extra money is obviously an advantage in building a team. That's not what you asked when you went off on this tangent. Ceetar wrote: yes, obviously, you haven't introduced any of the downside yet. Where's the part where they demand you trade your nearly as valuable infielder in order to afford that stud outfielder? I don't think anyone's saying that more money is *everything.* But having a larger budget is unquestionably a benefit. I can't see how it makes any sense to say different. I didn't. I said that the team with the larger payroll isn't necessarily the better team. They don't necessarily have the advantage, once the offseason is done and games begin, in the division/league. I mean, hell, the Mets spent more last offseason, by far, than the Nationals, though the Nationals retained the higher payroll. There's definitely a more specific advantage to a immediate spending, and given the way service time works right now, the farther removed you are from actually committing to that money the less of an advantage, and often a detriment, it is. Think Pujols. I also said that said payroll is so far removed from my actual enjoyment of the team and the game that it's importance to me is very limited.

Centerfield Sep 13 2018 09:30 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Ceetar wrote: I think I already stated extra money is obviously an advantage in building a team. Given that we agree that extra money is an advantage in building a team, please pick which applies: (a) I want the Mets GM to have extra money to build a roster. (b) I do NOT want the Mets GM to have extra money to build a roster. (c) I am indifferent to whether or not the Mets GM is given extra money to build a roster.

Ceetar Sep 13 2018 09:37 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

you're boring me. What's "Extra"? beyond the arbitrary revenue of the Mets? Sure. That'd be nice. I'm not sure what right I have to demand it though. the correct answer is C of course. I want the Mets to acquire Machado or a similarly talented level of player to add to the roster on the infield. I don't care what they pay him.

Centerfield Sep 13 2018 09:43 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield (way back on page 3) wrote: There is a large contingent of fans that, despite wanting to win, are completely indifferent to whether or not the Mets spend like a big market club. I don't really get why. Maybe they believe there is no actual advantage offered by spending? I don't know. If they do, then they're wrong. But more often than not I get the feeling they know the truth, but elect to use twisted logic to justify a logically unjustifiable position. Emphasis added.

Ceetar Sep 13 2018 09:52 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: Centerfield (way back on page 3) wrote: There is a large contingent of fans that, despite wanting to win, are completely indifferent to whether or not the Mets spend like a big market club. I don't really get why. Maybe they believe there is no actual advantage offered by spending? I don't know. If they do, then they're wrong. But more often than not I get the feeling they know the truth, but elect to use twisted logic to justify a logically unjustifiable position. Emphasis added. emphasis all you like, as long as you look in a mirror.

Centerfield Sep 13 2018 04:29 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Honestly. Sometimes I have no idea where you are going with your arguments. Anyway, I think it's apparent to you, and anyone who takes the trouble to read through our exchange, that an increased budget is an advantage. That's why I advocate for it. No one can tell you the right way to be a fan. But you, other fans like you, members of the media etc., who pretend like money doesn't matter...I don't get it. But to each his own.

Ceetar Sep 14 2018 07:32 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Never pretended money doesn't matter. It's just not a one to one relationship, and is a rather murky one at that. Also, I don't throw a fit and spike my blood pressure every time the Mets sign someone when there was someone else out there that might not even be better but would've commanded more money. Or they don't get as much back as I expected and I desperately try to find a way to blame it on the Wilpons saving 20 bucks. It's boring and sloppy, isn't based in logic, reason, or even a quote. Like the trade deadline these past two years. We've gotten zero indication that the Mets could've gotten better prospects by eating some of the salary (and no one's explained why the other team would do that) but we see assert it like it's fact. But whatever, if building up this narrative around the murky details about the Mets finances interests you, have at it. It's extremely boring to me and I'd rather just discuss the players I think they can/should/will get.

Vic Sage Sep 14 2018 09:02 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I think Grimm put his finger on the disconnect here. While a team's PLAYER PAYROLL may not have a direct cause-and-effect relationship to wins in any given year (as Ceet notes, there are teams who spend and don't win, and teams that win and don't spend), but a team's BUDGET is very much a central factor in being able to sustain winning over time. It's not what a team spends, it's what they are WILLING to spend in any given year, based on the circumstances. Are they willing to cut a big contract player who is a bust and move on to acquire another big contract player, despite the sunk costs? Are they willing to go the extra mile and overpay for a specific FA, or pick one up at the trade deadline, because the GM believes he'll put us over the top? Are they willing to eat the back-end of a big contract in order to get a middle-aged player who is great now, even if he won't be later? Does the team take its profits and invest in international scouting and player development, or do they just pocket it, or use it for their other companies? Is the team willing to spend on getting the best staff and tech to help the team win? The only way we can know what the Wilpons are willing to do, however, is to assess what they have done. And it doesn't seem to many of us that they are wiling to use the advantage of flexibility that a big-revenue franchise would otherwise provide, whether its because their money is all tied up in debt (i.e., they don't have any), or because they'd rather run at a HIGHER profit and hope to win rather than run at a lower profit and actually increase their chance win.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 14 2018 09:09 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

It's not murky. The more money a team spends, the better it does. That's a proven fact. The correlation might not be perfect, but it's positive. This holds even for teams spending enough to trigger the luxury tax. Teams also generate more revenue the more they spend on payroll. This has been proven in studies by MLB itself and by outsiders. And of course, a team can't spend more without the budget to do so. A team can succeed with a smaller payroll but it's harder to do so, and is a strategy that is more luck reliant

Ceetar Sep 14 2018 09:17 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: It's not murky. The more money a team spends, the better it does. That's a proven fact. The correlation might not be perfect, but it's positive. This holds even for teams spending enough to trigger the luxury tax. Teams also generate more revenue the more they spend on payroll. This has been proven in studies by MLB itself and by outsiders. And of course, a team can't spend more without the budget to do so. A team can succeed with a smaller payroll but it's harder to do so, and is a strategy that is more luck reliant over the long term, not in a given year. And yes, but we don't know the budget, we can only guess at the budget, it's a damn murky mess of creative accounting that no one even bothers to ask about. This offseason there are a lot of good players and the relationship between 2018-2019 spending and 2019 quality might be a little more direct, but hell the Mets were one of the bigger spenders last offseason and it didn't really work out. We don't know the budget so I don't know why it's interesting to discuss how much they'll spend over discussing that they should be targeting Machado level production as in infield acquisition. It simply being Machado is the easy way to achieve that, but there are certainly other acquisitions/trades/maneuvers that will work. (And, of course, you can never really know who is going to be perform in the future.)

Benjamin Grimm Sep 14 2018 09:27 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

But you really do have to have a sense of the budget to know whether or not a pursuit of Machado is even realistic. I'd love it if the Mets made a serious effort to sign Machado, but I don't expect it. And maybe I'm wrong not to expect it. I hope so!

Centerfield Sep 14 2018 09:49 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: But you really do have to have a sense of the budget to know whether or not a pursuit of Machado is even realistic. Yup. Also, understand this. There is no way ceetar is "indifferent" about budget and payroll. Fans who are indifferent to budget/payroll simply ignore those discussions. That's not ceetar. He actively argues against it. Goes out of his way to reiterate how little it matters. Characterizes those who care about it as hysterical by using phrases like "I don't throw a fit and spike my blood pressure". This isn't someone who doesn't care. This is someone who wants to affirmatively downplay the importance of the budget. There are those in the media who subscribe to this school of thought. I always thought they did so to endear themselves to the owners. Maybe get an inside track or something. But there are is a contingent of fans who do this also. Again, I have no explanation as to why they do this.

Ceetar Sep 14 2018 09:55 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: But you really do have to have a sense of the budget to know whether or not a pursuit of Machado is even realistic. I'd love it if the Mets made a serious effort to sign Machado, but I don't expect it. And maybe I'm wrong not to expect it. I hope so! oh, so we only talk about realistic things here in Mets fandom?

Benjamin Grimm Sep 14 2018 10:12 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

No, but it's worthwhile to know what is and isn't realistic.

Ceetar Sep 14 2018 11:41 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: No, but it's worthwhile to know what is and isn't realistic. Machado is possible. But he'll be highly sought after so 'realistic'? I dunno. depends how you define it. We start threads and debate endlessly based on a random journalist suggesting a player the Mets could acquire. That's less realistic than the talented ones that fit a need.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 03 2018 12:08 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

First up: Doug Melvin Mets kicking off GM search with longtime baseball exec Mike Puma wrote: The Mets’ general manager search will include at least one name with extensive experience in the position. Doug Melvin, the former Rangers and Brewers GM, has been contacted by the Mets and will interview with club officials either this week or next, according to an industry source. The 66-year-old Melvin has been serving as a senior adviser to the Brewers, who clinched the NL Central title on Monday.

Mex17 Oct 03 2018 01:01 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

That’s a Fred choice.

Mex17 Oct 03 2018 05:34 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

This little tidbit from Martino on Metsblog. . . https://www.sny.tv/mets/news/what-to-ex ... /296982278 "they are not necessarily looking for a general manager, but possibly for a president or executive vice president of baseball ops." There is a significant difference between "President" and "Executive Vice President". If they hire a President, that could mean that the person has more jizz in order to brush aside Jeffy. Either way, it's a higher title than what Alderson ever had. I honestly thought that he was EVP of Baseball Ops, but after looking at some old yearbooks, it turns out that all he ever was was GM. This could also mean that they are looking to give Ricco a title bump to GM while keeping him subordinate to the new hire.

Frayed Knot Oct 03 2018 08:10 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Don't get hung up on titles. If there winds up being a buffer between ownership and the GM then it's meaningful no matter what he's called. I have no idea what qualifies Melvin as 'a Fred choice'

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 03 2018 08:19 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Experienced "baseball lifer," with strong emphasis on traditional scouting (and, as a bonus, cobbling together sorta-contenders out of scrapheap pieces).

Ashie62 Oct 03 2018 08:56 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

No Korean female? shucks

Lefty Specialist Oct 04 2018 07:38 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: Experienced "baseball lifer," with strong emphasis on traditional scouting (and, as a bonus, cobbling together sorta-contenders out of scrapheap pieces). On the nose. Fred's not an outside-the-box kind of guy. I don't think he'll be the deciding factor though; Jeff will and he'll sell Fred on whatever his choice is.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 04 2018 11:16 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

It won't be Ben Cherington, according to Andy Martino. https://www.sny.tv/mets/news/sources-be ... /296999382 He's happy in Toronto and not interested in being a GM at this time.

Centerfield Oct 05 2018 10:35 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Hey Thad Levine, wanna be our GM? Nah. I'm good. Give it what weight you will, but the prevailing thought on twitter is that bring young execs aren't exactly jumping at the possibility of generally managing the Mets.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 05 2018 04:24 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

[youtube:f2zvs9wq]3dJOZgxbQJw[/youtube:f2zvs9wq] "That's quite a surprise," he intoned sardonically.

41Forever Oct 05 2018 05:58 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: It won't be Ben Cherington, according to Andy Martino. https://www.sny.tv/mets/news/sources-be ... /296999382 He's happy in Toronto and not interested in being a GM at this time. The problem with these stories is that many of these people have never expressed an interest but are included in writer speculation pieces. So now we have a piece where someone who is interested based only on “speculation” who is allegedly not interested in a job, but neither the person nor the team will confirm. This is sloppy, lazy journalism.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 05 2018 08:55 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

NorthJersey.com wrote: As first reported by NorthJersey.com and the USA TODAY NETWORK New Jersey, the team's pool of candidates appears to be shrinking due to concerns by younger, analytics-oriented candidates that the team is not willing to be a forward-thinking organization. Team owner Fred Wilpon is not a big believer in analytics, and the Mets went against the analytics' staff recommendations last winter. https://www.northjersey.com/story/sport ... 536419002/

Mex17 Oct 06 2018 02:08 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: As first reported by NorthJersey.com and the USA TODAY NETWORK New Jersey, the team's pool of candidates appears to be shrinking due to concerns by younger, analytics-oriented candidates that the team is not willing to be a forward-thinking organization. Team owner Fred Wilpon is not a big believer in analytics, and the Mets went against the analytics' staff recommendations last winter. https://www.northjersey.com/story/sport ... 536419002/ Maybe that's not a bad thing? We just had a season where there were more strikeouts than hits in MLB (I think for the first time ever). And, we are also at the same time watching game after game after game where guys flat out refuse to slap balls to the opposite field (or drag bunt down the line the opposite way) despite the opposition giving them easy hits due to these overexaggerated shifts. How much of this is due to the "analytics"? In spite of my deep mistrust of the Wilpons, maybe Fred is holding fast to the correct approach here?

smg58 Oct 06 2018 06:00 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Apparently the analytics department (following a chain of links) advised against Bruce and Vargas. I'd want a clear idea of what they DID recommend before giving them an unqualified endorsement, but that was reasonable as far as it goes.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 06 2018 06:15 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Mex17 wrote: In spite of my deep mistrust of the Wilpons, maybe Fred is holding fast to the correct approach here? Yeah, no.

Centerfield Oct 06 2018 06:31 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

As first reported by NorthJersey.com and the USA TODAY NETWORK New Jersey, the team's pool of candidates appears to be shrinking due to concerns by younger, analytics-oriented candidates that the team is not willing to be a forward-thinking organization. Team owner Fred Wilpon is not a big believer in analytics, and the Mets went against the analytics' staff recommendations last winter. https://www.northjersey.com/story/sport ... 536419002/ Maybe that's not a bad thing? We just had a season where there were more strikeouts than hits in MLB (I think for the first time ever). And, we are also at the same time watching game after game after game where guys flat out refuse to slap balls to the opposite field (or drag bunt down the line the opposite way) despite the opposition giving them easy hits due to these overexaggerated shifts. How much of this is due to the "analytics"? In spite of my deep mistrust of the Wilpons, maybe Fred is holding fast to the correct approach here? Um. No. On the laundry list of reasons why Fred sucks, his distrust of analytics is right up there with his inability to spend. Here's an article from February 2015 ranking the MLB teams that have embraced analytics. http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story? ... s-rankings There are 9 teams described as "All In". Six of those teams made the playoffs. Boston, Yankees, Cubs, Cleveland, Oakland, Houston. These six teams include 2 of the last 3 World Champions, and all three teams that won 100 games this year. The other three teams labeled as "All In" were: Tampa Bay (won 90 games, this year's biggest surprise), St. Louis (won 88 games, contends regularly) and Pittsburgh (who was not very good, but performed better than expected). And yes, it's not dispositive (Atlanta is listed as a "Skeptic"), but if the biggest winners subscribe to a theory, maybe there is something to it yes? The Budget Skeptics constantly crow "It's not how much you spend, it's whether you spend it wisely". (It's both. Duh.) Here is Fred refusing information that will allow him to spend wisely. Think about this for a minute. Fred not only refuses to spend, but also refuses to spend wisely. Two winning seasons in the last ten. Two division titles in 30 years. Since 2000, the Mets have won 90 games three times. Maybe it's time to change the philosophy.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 06 2018 07:13 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

What burns me is Jeff having suggested that going with a comparatively barebones staff was "Sandy's choice" as though they offered him 20 people and he said, no I'm good with three. I'm certain it comes down to, we'll give you 17 extra analytics people or a third baseman and a relief pitcher -- your choice. All that said, this narrative of the Mets being unable to attract young analysts were they to be offered the opportunity has also got to be bullshit. Perhaps there's circumstances with certain guys, but I'd be shocked if the personnel office isn't bombarded with resumes right now.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 07 2018 03:06 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Mike Puma wrote: The four known candidates at this point are former Rangers/Brewers GM Doug Melvin, Cardinals director player of development Gary LaRocque, MLB executive Kim Ng and Nationals special assistant De Jon Watson. All four are expected to receive an initial interview next week. Team owner Fred Wilpon’s preference, according to sources, continues to be a candidate with a deep background in scouting and player development. Melvin and LaRocque, both in their mid-60s, fit that profile. The 49-year-old Ng, a former assistant GM with the Yankees and Dodgers, would bring a blend of experience to the position. Watson, with 31 years of baseball experience, has a strong background in scouting and player development. Watson, 52, is African-American, so I'd think, oh, he's the token minority that the Mets have to interview, but I guess Ng would also fit that description? Or does minority mean "black" where this rule is concerned? I was wondering, by the way, how to pronounce "Ng". I asked Gary Cohen, and he said it's "Ning-or-reese" but I don't think I believe that. I did, however, find this: https://www.quora.com/How-do-you-pronou ... rname-Ng-1 I am a Mandarin speaker who has lived in Hong Kong for 10 years. “Ng” was one of the obstacles for learning Cantonese, even for Mandarin speakers because there is also no such sound in Mandarin. it is just a nasal sound, the best way for me to describe it is the “mmm” sound when people talk “ummmm” or “Mmmmmm”. An easy way to pronounce this is to close your lips, and stick your tip of tongue to the upper part of your mouth cavity behind the teeth (like the back gum area of upper teeth), and try exhaling through the nose. If you try to produce a sound instead of just exhaling, you should be able to produce the “Ng” sound. I'd like to think this is correct, but it's hard to imagine the guys on Mets Hot Stove talking to Kim Ng and pronouncing her name by doing what's described above.

MFS62 Oct 07 2018 04:13 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'd like to think this is correct, but it's hard to imagine the guys on Mets Hot Stove talking to Kim Ng and pronouncing her name by doing what's described above. Whenever I see a tough name like this I wonder how Ralph Kiner would have pronounced it. And then I laugh. Later

Frayed Knot Oct 07 2018 09:59 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I've most often heard it pronounced (more or less) as Ning. I believe it's Vietnamese in origin.

seawolf17 Oct 08 2018 06:13 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

My friend whose last name is Ng comes from Hong Kong. We've always pronounced it "ING," but a Vietnamese friend whose name starts with Ng tried to teach us that nasal sound that Ben referenced in the quote above. Either way, I know I'm not pronouncing it correctly myself.

Ceetar Oct 08 2018 07:28 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Anyone read the most recent Athletic piece by Eno Sarris (I didn't, i don't have access and I tried to sign up with a student account and failed) but there was some real info in there about analytics depts, more than the unsourced garbage that's been circulated I hope.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 09 2018 09:20 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Puma on the Twitter teases a scoop that Tony LaRussa is campaigning for the Mets to hire Gary "I Do" LaRoque

metirish Oct 10 2018 06:58 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Puma on the Twitter teases a scoop that Tony LaRussa is campaigning for the Mets to hire Gary "I Do" LaRoque money for old rope....read the bit, La Russa getting his old buddy a job

Edgy MD Oct 10 2018 08:38 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

"Money for old rope."

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 10 2018 09:19 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

LaRoque fwiw has a good rep and was a former Met exec in the Phillips Era. If they go with him they'll be sure to mention his role in acquiring Young David Wright.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 10 2018 01:48 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Money for new rope: Mets have interviewed 14-year Rays veteran (yet remarkably only 35 years old) Chaim Bloom. https://www.mlb.com/rays/team/front-office/chaim-bloom

Edgy MD Oct 10 2018 01:52 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Loved him in The Producers.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 10 2018 01:54 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Interesting! I also like his name, but I'd like it better if it was "Chain Boom", which is how I first read it.

Ceetar Oct 10 2018 01:57 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Jewish angle will probably go over well in the organization.

Edgy MD Oct 10 2018 01:59 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Wouldn't it be something to have a 43-year-old manager and a 35-year-old GM?

metirish Oct 10 2018 05:29 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Edgy MD wrote: "Money for old rope." My understanding of this phrase is from the hangman that did the rounds throughout Britain and Ireland , after he did his job he often sold the rope used for the hanging

Benjamin Grimm Oct 10 2018 06:24 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

If that's the case then maybe they should hire Chain Boom.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 14 2018 02:43 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Mike Puma wrote: Add Mike Chernoff to the list of established baseball executives saying, “Thanks, but no thanks” to the Mets. The Indians general manager has informed team officials of his intent to remain in Cleveland, according to an industry source, and not pursue the Mets’ opening for a head of baseball operations, replacing Sandy Alderson. https://nypost.com/2018/10/14/another-e ... mets-down/

Benjamin Grimm Oct 14 2018 03:05 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

A more appropriate title for this thread might be "Who's NOT gonna be the General Manager?" At this point, I think I'm rooting for Ng or Bloom.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 14 2018 03:58 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I don't see how anybody would want to be the Mets GM. Obviously, I don't mean that literally --- the Mets'll get somebody in the end. There aren't very many GM openings that come up in any given year, and the position is prestigious and high-paying. But I don't see how any candidate who thinks he might get a similar gig with another team down the line would want the Mets job. He'd be working for a tyrannical meddler in Jeff Wilpon and every baseball insider knows just what a colossal douchebag he is. And then he'd get the worst aspects of working in a large market --- the hyper intense scrutiny of a huge fan base and large media presence -- large markets generally mean more stupid fans and asshole media personalities ------ but without any of the advantages of a large market because the Mets are cash strapped and cheapskates on top of that who don't participate in the free agent market the way they ought to --- instead signing past their prime Joe Palooka free agents on the hail mary miracle plan. Any candidate with clout and a track record just ain't coming here. And if the candidate has clout and a track record, that means he done good somewhere else. This is mirroring the Mets managerial search of last off season. This doesn't mean the Mets won't sign a good GM in the end, but they have obstacles to landing a good one.

Edgy MD Oct 14 2018 07:07 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I would love to be the Mets GM. I've already slept with a LOT of people to better position myself. Like, a LOT.

Centerfield Oct 14 2018 07:35 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: A more appropriate title for this thread might be "Who's NOT gonna be the General Manager?" At this point, I think I'm rooting for Ng or Bloom. Me too. If I could pick, I’d go Bloom first. He seems to be dedicated to an analytic approach. Not sure if Ng is analytics driven as well, but I think that this would be a tough job for her. As the first woman GM and the first Asian American GM, I would want her to have some success. Unfortunately I feel like the Mets GM position is a setup for failure.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 14 2018 08:56 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

its incredibly disappointing to hear they can't come to as much as a decision to hire a baseball CEO and a COO, or just one, as it is to know they don't know what kind of people they need, and old school scout or a pocket protector nerd. in the end you'll know that they'll be influenced by the debate -- and so whatever they do they will do for all the wrong reasons, to make a show oneed. in fact I don't doubt that these stories are to a degree plants to take the temperature of the fans.

Ceetar Oct 15 2018 07:45 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: its incredibly disappointing to hear they can't come to as much as a decision to hire a baseball CEO and a COO, or just one, as it is to know they don't know what kind of people they need, and old school scout or a pocket protector nerd. in the end you'll know that they'll be influenced by the debate -- and so whatever they do they will do for all the wrong reasons, to make a show oneed. in fact I don't doubt that these stories are to a degree plants to take the temperature of the fans. Hopefully they'll be influenced most by the candidates, the up in your face "This is how I bring you the parade" stuff. And hopefully the guy peddling it the best it's a huckster. "We're gonna bring in the best guys, just the best guys, to work with our guys and really grind out the wins" The Wilpons might be swayed by that bravado, but they've failed that way enough too that maybe it won't be enough over the well-prepared candidate citing stats and angles. My guess as to the first part is that they really only want to hire one person, more in fear of being criticized for the "too many GMs" nonsense that's dumb because everyone does that, and less in the "I want to meddle more" because he's the owner and like all owners, will and can meddle no matter who they hire. I think they're just leaving the door open in case they really love two candidates or one demands that higher role, or demands to bring in his own GM or something like that. That's gotta be a tough sell though. You can't really interview someone for a GM job and tell them it might be the GM job in charge of it all, or it might be second fiddle to a president type role.

Centerfield Oct 15 2018 08:33 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

In addition to Chernoff, it looks like Dodgers VP Josh Byrnes also took a pass. I didn't even know we were in on him. The 37-year-old Chernoff, who grew up in New Jersey — his father, Mark, is in charge of WFAN’s programming — joins former Red Sox GM Ben Cherington and Twins GM Thad Levine among potential candidates who have told the Mets they are not interested. And The Post’s Joel Sherman reported Sunday that Dodgers vice president of baseball operations Josh Byrnes also won’t interview with the Mets. Among the issues, according to sources, is the perception that team COO Jeff Wilpon will run the baseball operations department, with the new hire as the real No. 2 in the organization. https://nypost.com/2018/10/14/another-e ... mets-down/ Who knows how this will play out, but the article ends by suggesting that Melvin and LaRocque, the old guys, seem to have the inside track.

Ceetar Oct 15 2018 08:37 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I'm not convinced some of these guys were even actual candidates rather than media candidates. Byrnes interviewed last time right? Does this count as 'reporting'. Sherman called Byrnes and asked if he had an interview. He said no. I could call you and ask you that, is that reporting or in any way useful information? Maybe all this bs about no one wanting to interview with the Mets is because the media is running around asking guys they're not interviewing if they're interviewing and getting 'no' responses. "Haha, look at all these guys that don't want to work for the Mets! Never mind that the Mets didn't really consider them either!"

metirish Oct 15 2018 08:45 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Ceetar wrote: I'm not convinced some of these guys were even actual candidates rather than media candidates. Byrnes interviewed last time right? Does this count as 'reporting'. Sherman called Byrnes and asked if he had an interview. He said no. I could call you and ask you that, is that reporting or in any way useful information? Maybe all this bs about no one wanting to interview with the Mets is because the media is running around asking guys they're not interviewing if they're interviewing and getting 'no' responses. "Haha, look at all these guys that don't want to work for the Mets! Never mind that the Mets didn't really consider them either!" yeah, the local writers really are reveling in reporting that no one wants the job , it all looks awful too , Jeff really needs to fuck off away

Ceetar Oct 15 2018 09:12 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

metirish wrote: yeah, the local writers really are reveling in reporting that no one wants the job , it all looks awful too , Jeff really needs to fuck off away Well i mean, he's gotta be the guy that hires the new guy/gal(s). It's lose/lose either way. There's no candidate that won't get criticized by some section of both the fanbase and media. There's no comment Jeff can make that will convince anyone he doesn't meddle nor will he admit that he does meddle (more than others). When he tries he ends up bashing Alderson so it's better if he shuts up, but then he's criticized for not talking enough. I guess I'm just happy the media didn't bang down the door to chemo treatments to get a counter-quote from Sandy. Although I'm a little surprised they didn't.

Edgy MD Oct 15 2018 09:26 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I agree that it's lose-lose. If he says he gave Alderson authority, he's a coward, if he says he didn't, he's a meddler. We'll see how it plays out. I have my disagreements with Alderson, but if they walk away with someone I regard as highly as him, who has the juice that he had to allow for independence, I'll be over the moon.

Centerfield Oct 15 2018 09:33 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I don't agree with the idea that Jeff is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. He could, at any time, take responsibility for what he's done and change his ways. "I'm sure you've all heard rumors about our involvement, some might call it "meddling", during the past regime. Look, we are looking for a wholesale change in philosophy. Our new GM will have full authority. Our only job will be to give him the resources that a big market GM should have, and that's what we'll do. Provide the bankroll. How he or she chooses to spend that, or not spend that, will be up to that person." Then, you know, follow through and do it.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 15 2018 09:40 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I don't think it's unreasonable for a GM to consult with his bosses before major moves, such as committing $300 million to a someone or trading a franchise player. So 100 per cent autonomy is probably too much to ask, but I agree that the Mets should hire someone whose philosophy matches what they're looking for, and give him (or her) the latitude to execute that philosophy.

Edgy MD Oct 15 2018 09:44 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I have no idea, for the most part, what Jeff Wilpon has done. And if neither yes nor no is an acceptable answer, it doesn't matter. His best bet is shutting up. Names I don't want to hear associated with the GM search: Bill Bavasi, Omar Minaya, Steve Phillips, Lee Mazzilli, John Franco, Dave Stewart. I'm trying to think if I could plausibly entertain the idea of Ruben Amaro, Jr. (Hell, maybe he's been the designated successor all along, and has just been hanging out in the first base coach's box to get the lay of the land.) There's some names I regard badly but have been associated with some success, like Allard Baird, and some I regard highly despite being associated with failed regimes, like Frank Wren. That's a hard fence to sit on.

Ceetar Oct 15 2018 09:59 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: I don't agree with the idea that Jeff is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. He could, at any time, take responsibility for what he's done and change his ways. "I'm sure you've all heard rumors about our involvement, some might call it "meddling", during the past regime. Look, we are looking for a wholesale change in philosophy. Our new GM will have full authority. Our only job will be to give him the resources that a big market GM should have, and that's what we'll do. Provide the bankroll. How he or she chooses to spend that, or not spend that, will be up to that person." Then, you know, follow through and do it. No one would believe him if he made that statement. He'd have to be really fucking candid, and self-aware. I don't think he's capable of that. He could not meddle AND not raise the budget. To be perfectly straight-forward, open and honest about the budget he'd have to open the books, which he won't do, and I'm not sure he'd even be able to on his own. And then he'd have to explain, in depth, to journalists not finance people, which he's counting as revenue, what he's counting as expenses, specifically for the Mets, and specifically for not the Mets, and which loans are on Mets stuff versus personal stuff, etc. And even if he did all that, there would still be intense criticism(and perhaps legal ones, though since no one cares about white collar financial crime anymore, maybe not) of how he decided allocate that stuff. Like if he doesn't count the naming rights for Citi Field under Mets revenue but counts the stadium loans as Mets expenses (I'm like 70% sure they do this). And of course, there's a good shot he only tangentially understands that stuff, as he has finance guys doing most of it. And really, it doesn't matter. Even an off the record quote from Jeff that's something like "I always liked Jason Kipnis" would be considered meddling if it's printed even if he never said it to the Mets front office. Meanwhile Hal Steinbrenner can say he was "hot and heavy" in the Stanton negotiations and criticize his manager's decisions with no repercussions. There is only one real way the Wilpons can get a little less heat on them. continued winning. That's it. A WS win will take the media heat off. For the fans I think they'll maybe tolerate one loss in a row, but that second loss in a row will be blood in the water, even if it's the two in a row after going 160-0.

Centerfield Oct 15 2018 10:00 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I don't think it's unreasonable for a GM to consult with his bosses before major moves, such as committing $300 million to a someone or trading a franchise player. So 100 per cent autonomy is probably too much to ask, but I agree that the Mets should hire someone whose philosophy matches what they're looking for, and give him (or her) the latitude to execute that philosophy. Of course. That's completely reasonable. I'm thinking of exchanges like: I think you should sign Jay Bruce. Ok boss, but our analytics department suggest that Jay is on the downturn of his career, and his peripherals suggest that... I think you should sign Jay Bruce. Let's get him.

Centerfield Oct 15 2018 10:04 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Edgy MD wrote: I have no idea, for the most part, what Jeff Wilpon has done. And if neither yes nor no is an acceptable answer, it doesn't matter. His best bet is shutting up. I think the truth is always an acceptable answer. And being accountable for your actions is usually a pretty good move.

Edgy MD Oct 15 2018 10:20 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

The point is that I don't know what the truth is, or what his actions are, at least as far as imposing on Sandy Alderson's role. I'm doing guesswork. Sometimes educated guesswork. And I'm not speaking to what is an acceptable answer (certainly the truth is, whatever that may be), but what he has been damned for.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 15 2018 10:22 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I don't think it's unreasonable for a GM to consult with his bosses before major moves, such as committing $300 million to a someone or trading a franchise player. So 100 per cent autonomy is probably too much to ask, but I agree that the Mets should hire someone whose philosophy matches what they're looking for, and give him (or her) the latitude to execute that philosophy. What I was trying to get at above is, the Mets have no idea what philosophy they are looking for. They only want to appear as though they are backing whatever the "right" one is. This is the Wilpons in a nutshell. They are incompetent and don't know it.

Centerfield Oct 15 2018 11:30 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I don't think it's unreasonable for a GM to consult with his bosses before major moves, such as committing $300 million to a someone or trading a franchise player. So 100 per cent autonomy is probably too much to ask, but I agree that the Mets should hire someone whose philosophy matches what they're looking for, and give him (or her) the latitude to execute that philosophy. What I was trying to get at above is, the Mets have no idea what philosophy they are looking for. They only want to appear as though they are backing whatever the "right" one is. This is the Wilpons in a nutshell. They are incompetent and don't know it. Joel Sherman. Plagiarizing JCL. The most important questions the Mets should be asking in their interview process for a new general manager are to themselves. Are they sure they know what they are offering? Are they sure they know what they want? https://nypost.com/2018/10/15/empty-vow ... arch-mess/

Ceetar Oct 15 2018 11:58 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I don't think it's unreasonable for a GM to consult with his bosses before major moves, such as committing $300 million to a someone or trading a franchise player. So 100 per cent autonomy is probably too much to ask, but I agree that the Mets should hire someone whose philosophy matches what they're looking for, and give him (or her) the latitude to execute that philosophy. Of course. That's completely reasonable. I'm thinking of exchanges like: I think you should sign Jay Bruce. Ok boss, but our analytics department suggest that Jay is on the downturn of his career, and his peripherals suggest that... I think you should sign Jay Bruce. Let's get him. The analytics didn't, and shouldn't, have said that. Bruce's numbers were suggestive of him still being a pretty useful one-dimensional player. I still think this is an Alderson failing and not a Wilpon one. if Sandy was really against him it was really easy NOT to give him that much money right? If the Wilpons are as cheap and thrifty as the narrative said, selling Nimmo as the answer over him should've been easy. Vargas was the one that was really cited as being bad analytically, but they also barely gave him any money and he actually was a pretty good fit for what Sandy claimed to be looking for. The analytics department advising (not telling) him that doesn't change anything, especially if Sandy really wanted a better analytics dept. Like, was it good enough to trust on this but not good enough as whole? Pick your narrative please, not just retroactively. And it's not like we've gotten word that the Mets really should've signed X starter over him. None of the starters were good. Did you like Vargas over Montero? that seems like a reasonable bet. But again, they could've just rolled with Montero/Lugo/Gsellman et al. There are so many logical fallacies in the damn ownership narrative it's hard to keep straight.

41Forever Oct 15 2018 12:48 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I take Sherman with a grain of salt. His part about Calloway is silly. No GM is going to want to come in and whack a manager right away, especially one with two years left on his contract. I suspect someone coming in will look with a critical eye for a year then decide whether he or she wants to bring in someone of their own choosing. It's more palatable to eat one year of a contract than two. And while Mickey certainly had some bumps in the road, I don't think he appeared over his head. A learning year, for sure. But the team did rebound. I don't think we're in Art Howe territory. I'm also not panicked at the pace. The trio is in place and we're not even to the World Series yet.

Ashie62 Oct 15 2018 07:54 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Mickey Mouse Calloway is safe. Short leash, but safe

batmagadanleadoff Oct 16 2018 05:51 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

batmagadanleadoff wrote: I don't see how anybody would want to be the Mets GM. Obviously, I don't mean that literally --- the Mets'll get somebody in the end. There aren't very many GM openings that come up in any given year, and the position is prestigious and high-paying. But I don't see how any candidate who thinks he might get a similar gig with another team down the line would want the Mets job. He'd be working for a tyrannical meddler in Jeff Wilpon and every baseball insider knows just what a colossal douchebag he is. And then he'd get the worst aspects of working in a large market --- the hyper intense scrutiny of a huge fan base and large media presence -- large markets generally mean more stupid fans and asshole media personalities ------ but without any of the advantages of a large market because the Mets are cash strapped and cheapskates on top of that who don't participate in the free agent market the way they ought to --- instead signing past their prime Joe Palooka free agents on the hail mary miracle plan. Any candidate with clout and a track record just ain't coming here. And if the candidate has clout and a track record, that means he done good somewhere else. This is mirroring the Mets managerial search of last off season. This doesn't mean the Mets won't sign a good GM in the end, but they have obstacles to landing a good one. Baseball insiders know exactly what kind of colossal douchebags the Wilpons are and just how full of total shit they are about their GM hiring process and how much supposed autonomy the new GM will really get. https://nypost.com/2018/10/15/empty-vow ... arch-mess/

Ceetar Oct 16 2018 07:25 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Sherman isn't a baseball insider, he's an idiot. All the post contains is unsourced opinions. Literally "Someone that I won't named BELIEVES this to be the case". That's literally nothing.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 16 2018 08:04 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

So what do we know so far? From what I've gathered, they've interviewed five candidates: LaRocque, Melvin, Watson, Ng, and Bloom. I hate to say it, but Watson seems like the guy that they interviewed because they had to. Of the other four, LaRocque and Melvin are the old-schoolers, Bloom is the Young Turk, and Ng is somewhere in between. (I have a hunch that she'll end up being the compromise winner.) It will be interesting to see who the Final Three are, if indeed there will be a Final Three (as has been reported) and if we get confirmation of who they are. If LaRocque and Melvin both advance, that could be a clue towards the Mets thinking. The same if Bloom is eliminated. I hope Bloom and Ng both advance. It might not be long before we learn who the finalists are. At least, I hope not.

Ceetar Oct 16 2018 08:04 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

There are others, i think they're doing more this week and I can't tell if the rumors of a "candidate we don't know" were subsequently leaked or not.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 16 2018 08:07 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

That's true. Mickey Callaway pretty much came out of nowhere last year, so the same could happen this year with the GM job.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 16 2018 08:09 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Ceetar wrote: Sherman isn't a baseball insider, he's an idiot. He tells you more about the Mets than you realize. All the post contains is unsourced opinions . Actually it is full of verifiable facts, loaded with context and perspective, and offers an informed opinion based on them.

Ceetar Oct 16 2018 08:12 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

no it's not. I actually read this one. It's full of quotes like I said. We've gotten like one non-committal second-hand quote on this entire process that was a wishy washy indictment of stats from Fred, but had nothing about whether that would actually influence decision making. I'm gonna need more than an anonymous opinion from a random person about what he or she thinks the Mets are doing to believe 99% of the press on this isn't just running off that one quote from a month ago.

Centerfield Oct 16 2018 08:15 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

You're the second poster in this thread to bring up bad journalism. Un-named sources, writer speculation, stuff like that. Certainly it's terrible not to source your information. One writer hears something from an un-named source, another writer speculates, and then next thing you know it's been "widely reported". But on things like this, a GM search, what is a writer to do? What qualifies as good journalism? And do you have any examples? I'm not in the industry. I have no idea what the standards are. The Mets are not going to make any public statements, certainly the candidates are not going to talk on the record, and no one in the organization will give their name for fear of losing their job. If good journalism requires someone to speak on the record, would we get any information at all? And this isn't just the GM search. It's basically the entire hot stove season. Free agent signings, trade talks, anything concerned with the budget. How can one report on things like this? I'm from upstate New York, and in that area Syracuse basketball is huge. The local writers there are terrific and really know the team inside out. But their style of reporting is to write about things after the fact. They will never speculate on a recruit until he has signed. They won't report progress on an injury until the team issues a statement. They report what has happened, officially. No progress reports, no speculation, nothing is known until the event is done. I would guess that's the other side of spectrum. Would be interested to hear from the journalists.

Ceetar Oct 16 2018 08:35 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I mean, maybe I'm just too analytical to be a good sports fan. It's all entertainment, and that includes all the 'who will sign where?!?' the 'lolmets' stuff. the coverage of the GM search. It's meant to illicit a reaction and engagement. It may be a little bit above the nonsense takes of sports radio, but only barely. The GM candidate I like is better than the GM candidate you like and the team is stupid to consider this or that. It's all just an extension of 'rah rah my team is better than yours'. A lot of what annoys me about LolMets coverage is that we're all supposed to be on the same side. It's maybe the only thing I envy about being a Yankees fans, the blind loyalty stuff. Ultimately, even if you think your team did something really stupid, you still want that stupid thing to work out. I want Jay Bruce to hit 45 home runs next season splitting time playing hopefully not too defense at first base and RF. So this nonsense by Sherman/Puma/others is just that. Can you believe the Mets didn't even talk to _this guy_ or _that guy_? There are two types of 'journalism' if you want to call it that. There's this kind, the entertainment kind, the talking and opining about what is happening kind. And then there's the digging stuff. The uncovering of facts. That's what's lacking from sports/the Mets. It really feels like we're going off that one quote on the GM search. And granted, we won't hear more from the team necessarily, but that's what reporting is right? digging for it? Once some of these candidates are dismissed maybe we can get one of them to talk? Another example is the Cespedes surgery. There are two surgeries but one recovery period and everyone's just re-printing press releases. No one's asking if that recovery time is total or from the second surgery, and what the intricacies of that are. No one asked which foot was first (And I was correct in my assumption that it was be his right) and if the order mattered. I was ridiculed by supposed reporter Matt Ehalt for asking for this clarification. (he's aggressively dismissive of people on Twitter and actively searches his names to get into fights..) I'm good with anonymous sources, they're necessary, but if you're going to use them you need to tell me why I should believe their opinion. Also, when you say "according to sources" instead of something like "Someone I spoke to within the Mets organization" it's pretty obvious you just mean the other reports that are out there that you're just piggybacking on. You haven't confirmed that tidbit. Sherman floats a ridiculous theory at the end of the piece, completely unsourced and just out of his own head. That's not journalism. He suggests that the search might be rigged, and hits LOLMets narrative points about the Dodgers. And wtf is this? This is the climax of his piece. This is the point he's trying to hammer home? Also, it is worth remembering that strawberries, pickles and whiskey all are delicious, but that doesn’t mean they go well together. Perhaps a gifted chef could effectively blend them.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 16 2018 08:49 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I'll say it for the millionth time, this is a great article and Sherman is a triple threat: He's a good reporter, an insightful columnist and a good writer. This column in particular relays facts and raises questions based on them, that's what a good reporter/columnist ought to do. The most important questions the Mets should be asking in their interview process for a new general manager are to themselves. Are they sure they know what they are offering? Are they sure they know what they want? This is exactly what the debate to this point has been. The Mets are nearing conclusion of a first wave of interviews to find a successor to Sandy Alderson and are expected to pare to three-ish candidates for a second round. Facts. While not commenting publicly, what the Mets want circulated is that they are unified in this process and that the person who emerges will have autonomy. Now to Ceetar this sounds as though the writer made this up but I can guarantee you the descriptor what the Mets want circulated is off-the-record/background from someone in the org who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Were someone on the record what do you suppose they would say? "We are united on this and our new kleader will have autonomy." There is nothing at all outrageous on this. But saying this does not make it true. Many qualified candidates refused interviews because they do not believe it is true. Facts. Mets ownership has promised autonomy before, but no one has ever left a Mets front-office job saying the head of baseball operations actually has unfettered power. True. Instead, they describe a situation in which, at best, the recommendations of the baseball head are followed but not until — regardless of the size of the issue — both owners are consulted (usually separately). True. As one former employee said, “Those are not two- or five-minute phone calls.” Are you doubting this? Translation: Those in charge get worn down and use a lot of the workday clock with this setup. A reasonable conclusion based on the presented facts. And this job search is not going to convince the industry that a new hire will have autonomy. A reasonable speculation based on facts Remember what Jeff Wilpon said on the final day of the regular season, that it would be his advice to retain manager Mickey Callaway and the acting GM triumvirate of Omar Minaya, J.P. Ricciardi and John Ricco, but that the ultimate decision would rest with the new GM? You could look it up. It's hyperlinked for christ's sake. Really? What candidate is going to make his first significant act dismissing people whom the owner already has said he wants back? Is this not a reasonable question? And Ricciardi and especially Minaya have been feeding candidates for this process. Fact. Would they really be proposing those who would dismiss them? Reasonable speculation based on above fact. Plus, Ricco has joined Jeff Wilpon to do the initial interviews. Fact. Ricco has stood out over the years for putting the Mets first. Fact. Still, is he going to recommend the hiring of someone who wants to fire him? So what kind of person would accept this job? Again, reasonable speculation based on the facts. What is wrong with this? In the first round, the Mets have gone pupu platter — not sure, for example, you get much different than Brewers 66-year-old senior adviser Doug Melvin and Rays 35-year-old senior VP of baseball operations Chaim Bloom. Facts. Conversely, upon dismissing GM Bobby Evans, Giants president Larry Baer said the team would pursue an analytically strong “Next Gen” GM. It has focused their search in a familiar way; they were run old-school under Evans and Brian Sabean and will go 180 degrees now. ' Facts. But what is 180 degrees for the Mets? Reasonable speculation based on facts. Fred Wilpon feels they got too analytical under Alderson — a sentiment not shared in the industry . Fact. But how does being too analytical jibe with what Jeff said in that end-of-year media briefing, that Alderson recommended not enlarging one of the smallest analytic departments in the majors? How can you be too analytical and yet have a tiny analytics department? Reasonable followup questions based on facts. And, by the way, don’t you think some good candidates noticed that Jeff put this on Alderson’s plate and also said his regime did not want to spend heavily on free agents? Speculation based on fact. Lack of appreciation/accountability from ownership also is not going to draw the best and brightest. Opinion but a reasonable one. Alderson brought stability and a strong public face at the worst of times for these owners (think Madoff), steered the Mets to an NL title, did not leave the cupboards bare of talent and — for goodness’ sake — is battling cancer. Do you think this ingratitude is not a talking point within the game? One needs to be willfully ignorant not to reach the same conclusion. So is the disconnect of what the Mets want and how they seem to be getting there, with Minaya and Terry Collins offering the old-school whispers Fred longs to hear while Ricco and Jeff canvass a wider field during interviews. What will emerge? It could be this is a rigged event and that Fred decided months ago Cardinals director of player development Gary LaRocque is getting the job . Speculation He checks all of Fred’s boxes for comfort: Worked for the Dodgers, has a relationship with Sandy Koufax, worked for the Mets, speaks the language of old-timey player development. Facts. You know what he has never done? I asked four prominent agents, and all said Larocque was not part of the Cardinals unit that negotiated contracts. I asked a half-dozen baseball ops folks who have done trades with the Cardinals, and none said LaRocque was ever part of that process. Bloom and Melvin, for example — despite their disparity in age and background — both have been instrumental in signings and trades. Reporting. I guess this is where — if the Mets go with LaRocque — they could sell Minaya, Ricciardi and Ricco, since each has served as a GM or interim GM. The Mets love to win the press conference, and I could see them trying to sell a Dream Team of Larocque on development, Minaya on international, Ricciardi on scouting, Ricco on administrative and some yet-to-be-named young analytic whiz kid. Of course, at the end of the year, Jeff Wilpon mentioned, while wanting to keep the three-headed GMs for support, that the trio were key advisers for the team’s return to awfulness. This makes complete sense given what we know about the search and the recent and distant histories of Fred and Jeff. Also, it is worth remembering that strawberries, pickles and whiskey all are delicious, but that doesn’t mean they go well together. Perhaps a gifted chef could effectively blend them. Does anyone sense the Mets have such gifted chefs leading this search? Do you really not understand the central theme of this piece? You're the idiot if so.

Ceetar Oct 16 2018 09:14 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I can't go piece by piece with this, it's too much. A lot of what you wrote as 'fact' is mostly meaningless. fact, yes, but like "And Ricciardi and especially Minaya have been feeding candidates for this process." well yeah, that's how it works, you get your employees to feed you names. They've been good names, something he basically 'confirms' with his pupu platter comment (Joel, please eat before you write next time) See, the Giants do the same thing: "While Sabean will be heavily involved in the hiring and interview process, I don’t expect him to have a big role in the front office moving forward." Here, let's take this. Conversely, upon dismissing GM Bobby Evans, Giants president Larry Baer said the team would pursue an analytically strong “Next Gen” GM. It has focused their search in a familiar way; they were run old-school under Evans and Brian Sabean and will go 180 degrees now. This seems a lot more of a hedge to me. Here's the full 'next-gen' quote. "I think we're looking for someone who's sort of a 'next-gen' general manager, if you will. Somebody who's going to be head of baseball ops," Baer said. " ... People will say 'new school vs. old school,' people will say 'analytics vs. scouting,' and I think that the new, next-generation general manager is able to do both, and will bring both." That's 180? I think Sherman should brush up on his math. Read the Giants GM search and it's literally the exact same stuff. It's the same candidates in a lot of cases (though less leaks there). some of the same snubs. From Chris Haft's article, you've even got a LOLGiants fascination with another team Due to Sabean's background in the Yankees' player personnel department, the Giants have long been viewed as a haven for members of that organization seeking a job. The Yankees' lone conceivable candidate for the Giants' opening would be Damon Oppenheimer, New York's vice president and director of amateur scouting. You can find similar quotes about decision making. The new hire would still report to Baer but have autonomy over baseball operations. I'm still trying to get my head around the idea that teams need to hire a president AND a GM for a bigger chain of command but that there are too many people involved in the decisions and it takes too long to get sign off to make them. Also the Giants have already asserted that the manager is returning, and even Evans is just being reassigned within the organization. (Something akin to what Sherman is asserting is bad that Terry Collins can still whisper in Fred's ear or whatever) I mean, if they hire a dud that hate analytics and they don't advance that cause, I'll be pissed for sure, but based on what's out there I'm not particularly worried they're going to hire that Cardinals guy Sherman's Grassy Knolling at this juncture.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 16 2018 09:25 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: Ceetar wrote: Sherman isn't a baseball insider, he's an idiot. He tells you more about the Mets than you realize. All the post contains is unsourced opinions . Actually it is full of verifiable facts, loaded with context and perspective, and offers an informed opinion based on them. By "baseball insiders", I meant Sherman's sources, not Sherman himself.

Centerfield Oct 16 2018 06:19 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I'll say it for the millionth time, this is a great article and Sherman is a triple threat: He's a good reporter, an insightful columnist and a good writer. This column in particular relays facts and raises questions based on them, that's what a good reporter/columnist ought to do. The most important questions the Mets should be asking in their interview process for a new general manager are to themselves. Are they sure they know what they are offering? Are they sure they know what they want? This is exactly what the debate to this point has been. The Mets are nearing conclusion of a first wave of interviews to find a successor to Sandy Alderson and are expected to pare to three-ish candidates for a second round. Facts. While not commenting publicly, what the Mets want circulated is that they are unified in this process and that the person who emerges will have autonomy. Now to Ceetar this sounds as though the writer made this up but I can guarantee you the descriptor what the Mets want circulated is off-the-record/background from someone in the org who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Were someone on the record what do you suppose they would say? "We are united on this and our new kleader will have autonomy." There is nothing at all outrageous on this. But saying this does not make it true. Many qualified candidates refused interviews because they do not believe it is true. Facts. Mets ownership has promised autonomy before, but no one has ever left a Mets front-office job saying the head of baseball operations actually has unfettered power. True. Instead, they describe a situation in which, at best, the recommendations of the baseball head are followed but not until — regardless of the size of the issue — both owners are consulted (usually separately). True. As one former employee said, “Those are not two- or five-minute phone calls.” Are you doubting this? Translation: Those in charge get worn down and use a lot of the workday clock with this setup. A reasonable conclusion based on the presented facts. And this job search is not going to convince the industry that a new hire will have autonomy. A reasonable speculation based on facts Remember what Jeff Wilpon said on the final day of the regular season, that it would be his advice to retain manager Mickey Callaway and the acting GM triumvirate of Omar Minaya, J.P. Ricciardi and John Ricco, but that the ultimate decision would rest with the new GM? You could look it up. It's hyperlinked for christ's sake. Really? What candidate is going to make his first significant act dismissing people whom the owner already has said he wants back? Is this not a reasonable question? And Ricciardi and especially Minaya have been feeding candidates for this process. Fact. Would they really be proposing those who would dismiss them? Reasonable speculation based on above fact. Plus, Ricco has joined Jeff Wilpon to do the initial interviews. Fact. Ricco has stood out over the years for putting the Mets first. Fact. Still, is he going to recommend the hiring of someone who wants to fire him? So what kind of person would accept this job? Again, reasonable speculation based on the facts. What is wrong with this? In the first round, the Mets have gone pupu platter — not sure, for example, you get much different than Brewers 66-year-old senior adviser Doug Melvin and Rays 35-year-old senior VP of baseball operations Chaim Bloom. Facts. Conversely, upon dismissing GM Bobby Evans, Giants president Larry Baer said the team would pursue an analytically strong “Next Gen” GM. It has focused their search in a familiar way; they were run old-school under Evans and Brian Sabean and will go 180 degrees now. ' Facts. But what is 180 degrees for the Mets? Reasonable speculation based on facts. Fred Wilpon feels they got too analytical under Alderson — a sentiment not shared in the industry . Fact. But how does being too analytical jibe with what Jeff said in that end-of-year media briefing, that Alderson recommended not enlarging one of the smallest analytic departments in the majors? How can you be too analytical and yet have a tiny analytics department? Reasonable followup questions based on facts. And, by the way, don’t you think some good candidates noticed that Jeff put this on Alderson’s plate and also said his regime did not want to spend heavily on free agents? Speculation based on fact. Lack of appreciation/accountability from ownership also is not going to draw the best and brightest. Opinion but a reasonable one. Alderson brought stability and a strong public face at the worst of times for these owners (think Madoff), steered the Mets to an NL title, did not leave the cupboards bare of talent and — for goodness’ sake — is battling cancer. Do you think this ingratitude is not a talking point within the game? One needs to be willfully ignorant not to reach the same conclusion. So is the disconnect of what the Mets want and how they seem to be getting there, with Minaya and Terry Collins offering the old-school whispers Fred longs to hear while Ricco and Jeff canvass a wider field during interviews. What will emerge? It could be this is a rigged event and that Fred decided months ago Cardinals director of player development Gary LaRocque is getting the job . Speculation He checks all of Fred’s boxes for comfort: Worked for the Dodgers, has a relationship with Sandy Koufax, worked for the Mets, speaks the language of old-timey player development. Facts. You know what he has never done? I asked four prominent agents, and all said Larocque was not part of the Cardinals unit that negotiated contracts. I asked a half-dozen baseball ops folks who have done trades with the Cardinals, and none said LaRocque was ever part of that process. Bloom and Melvin, for example — despite their disparity in age and background — both have been instrumental in signings and trades. Reporting. I guess this is where — if the Mets go with LaRocque — they could sell Minaya, Ricciardi and Ricco, since each has served as a GM or interim GM. The Mets love to win the press conference, and I could see them trying to sell a Dream Team of Larocque on development, Minaya on international, Ricciardi on scouting, Ricco on administrative and some yet-to-be-named young analytic whiz kid. Of course, at the end of the year, Jeff Wilpon mentioned, while wanting to keep the three-headed GMs for support, that the trio were key advisers for the team’s return to awfulness. This makes complete sense given what we know about the search and the recent and distant histories of Fred and Jeff. Also, it is worth remembering that strawberries, pickles and whiskey all are delicious, but that doesn’t mean they go well together. Perhaps a gifted chef could effectively blend them. Does anyone sense the Mets have such gifted chefs leading this search? Do you really not understand the central theme of this piece? You're the idiot if so. Nicely done. And it makes you want to tear your hair out when you go to the trouble of doing this and your counterpart says he doesn’t have time to go through the whole thing. Infuriating. For what it’s worth Kristie Ackert had an article in the News that said basically the same thing. And the DN has a partnership with SNY and tend to go easy on the Wilpons. I get the unnamed source criticism and I get that for some reason ceetar hates Sherman, but when everyone is basically saying the same thing.... And don’t think people haven’t noticed that these “bad journalism” complaints come out only when the article opposes the critic’s point of view.

Ceetar Oct 16 2018 07:46 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I said I didn't have time to respond piecemeal. it confuses the point. Everyone was saying the Mets were doing DAvid Wright wrong, despite him saying teh opposite, and saying it literally pained him to stand on the field. So excuse me if I don't treat aggregation of the same story as confirmation of the story. I'm hardly alone in thinking Sherman is a hack. And literally these are the exact same story lines the Giants are having. So it's hard to believe in some LOLMets thing. here, fine. Give me ONE candidate that has been cited as turning down an offer to interview with the Mets (not one that's just no on their radar) that's interviewing for another GM job. Find me the person that's actually saying "I want to be a GM, just not for the Mets" Again, a lot of people running with one or two anon quotes and talking about it does make that quote more true. One of the tricks you can use is to see if they elaborate at all, or they just repeat what was cited. Regardless, nothing about what Sherman wrote means the Mets are doomed or 'doing it wrong', as if a random writer knows what the right way to run a front office is. There's no 'right way' and half the teams in baseball disagree.

Edgy MD Oct 17 2018 07:35 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

There's certainly something impolitic — if you're the assistant GM for the Astros or head of scouting and development for the Twins and some writer asks if you'd be interested in the Mets job if you were offered it — in saying, "Would I?! Fuck, YES!" If the Mets haven't actually called, you'd be poisoning the well with your own bosses, and if they had, you'd be more circumspect so as not to compromise your status with either team and the folks you don't even know yet who you'll be working for next year. That said, there's certainly a solid argument for the management to get on the same page as far as organizational structure before undertaking the search in earnest. But often, and organization will tailor that to the person, too, and try and reconcile their vision with his.

Centerfield Oct 17 2018 08:00 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I was giving this some thought. Is it telling that they are looking at candidates from smaller market teams? Melvin is from the Brewers, Bloom is from Tampa. Gary LaRoque is from the Cardinals, and they are at least top ten. But the Mets are not entertaining candidates from any of the big hitters. Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Cubs. Now, there could be a million different reasons for this. But I wonder if the Wilpons aren't already telegraphing their unwillingness to spend going forward.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 17 2018 09:46 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Dave Littlefield, who's got a fantastic Wikipedia page, was interviewed today.

Centerfield Oct 18 2018 05:51 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

He seems...uninspiring. Don’t know anything about him. (And judging from his wiki, neither does anyone else). Maybe he’s secretly an analytical genius.

MFS62 Oct 18 2018 06:09 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: But the Mets are not entertaining candidates from any of the big hitters. Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, Cubs. Now, there could be a million different reasons for this. Ng worked for L.A. before joining the MLB office. Later

MFS62 Oct 18 2018 07:57 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager? Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Oct 18 2018 08:34 AM

Ceetar wrote: There are others, i think they're doing more this week and I can't tell if the rumors of a "candidate we don't know" were subsequently leaked or not. The free agent fishing season starts when the World Series ends. They can't do diddley squat (no pictures of Bo Diddley, please) without a GM. They'd better make a decision quickly, or it will be an off season of frustration as free agents sign elsewhere. Later

Ceetar Oct 18 2018 08:00 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

MFS62 wrote: Ceetar wrote: There are others, i think they're doing more this week and I can't tell if the rumors of a "candidate we don't know" were subsequently leaked or not. The free agent fishing season starts when the World Series ends. They can't do diddley squat (no pictures of Bo Diddley, please) without a GM. They'd better make a decision quickly, or it will be an off season of frustration as free agents sign elsewhere. Later 7 days after the WS actually. They've got people to reach out. It's not like Machado's going to sign instantly, especially not if the Mets reach out and express potential interest. bidding wars and all that.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 18 2018 08:01 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

They can do both diddly and squat. They still have the acting triumvirate in place.

MFS62 Oct 18 2018 08:33 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: They can do both diddly and squat. They still have the acting triumvirate in place. Comforting. And they probably will. Later

G-Fafif Oct 18 2018 01:18 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Adding Littlefield means bigger field at Citi Field. Well it does.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 19 2018 05:37 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

According to the New York Post, it won't be Gary LaRocque and it won't be De Jon Watson. Mets narrowing down GM search as 2nd interviews set to begin Candidates still in the running are Doug Melvin, Kim Ng, Chaim Bloom, Brodie Van Wagenen and Dave Littlefield. The Mets’ plan is to make each finalist for the general manager’s job available to the media after his or her second interview. But the team is not planning to announce the list of finalists all at once. The Mets told The Post that they consider Dave Littlefield a “fringe” candidate for general manager at this point. It’s unclear if if he has officially been eliminated from the search.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 19 2018 05:44 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

In the Daily News, Kristie Ackert includes agent Casey Close as one of the remaining candidates. Also says that Doug Melvin isn't as "old school" as we may think. Doug Melvin appears to be the ideal GM candidate to bridge the old-school vs. new-school divide within the Mets But don’t be fooled; Melvin isn’t just a recycled GM or an old-school baseball guy, according to some who worked closely with him in Milwaukee. “Doug is a fantastic human being and baseball mind,” one young Brewers’ colleague said on the condition of anonymity. “He’s patient. He’s a great listener. He galvanizes the whole group. “I think he has much more of an understanding and appreciation for analytics than (the) public gives him credit for,” he continued. “I think it would be the best thing for the Mets right now, because it sounds like they need leadership and a presence.”

Centerfield Oct 19 2018 07:52 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

That Ackert piece reads like a commercial for Melvin. I think Fred may have already picked his old guy.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 19 2018 08:04 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 19 2018 08:44 PM

I still think Brodie Van Wagenen is a made-up name. Like, he's Jeffy's "Art Vandelay."

Benjamin Grimm Oct 19 2018 08:33 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: That Ackert piece reads like a commercial for Melvin. I think Fred may have already picked his old guy. Maybe he lit up the room the way that Art Howe did.

bmfc1 Oct 20 2018 06:34 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: That Ackert piece reads like a commercial for Melvin. I think Fred may have already picked his old guy. [tweet]https://twitter.com/martinonyc/status/1053622608950894595[/tweet] Young guy with an analytic background, woman to show forward thinking, two agents to show non-traditional candidates... "we saw a lot of great people but with Doug we got the best of all worlds."

Benjamin Grimm Oct 20 2018 06:43 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

But all those candidates are alive. If they really wanted to think outside the box, they'd also consider some dead candidates.

Centerfield Oct 20 2018 06:52 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I think the dead guys turned them down.

Centerfield Oct 20 2018 06:57 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

bmfc1 wrote: That Ackert piece reads like a commercial for Melvin. I think Fred may have already picked his old guy. [tweet]https://twitter.com/martinonyc/status/1053622608950894595[/tweet] Young guy with an analytic background, woman to show forward thinking, two agents to show non-traditional candidates... "we saw a lot of great people but with Doug we got the best of all worlds." Raves for Doug Melvin: *Not as old school as you think! Very proficient with email! *Hilarious. Tells the best jokes! But don’t pull his finger! *Voted top ten in MLB of “Guys who still have moustaches”. *Definitely alive.

smg58 Oct 20 2018 08:59 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I would very much like Bloom or Ng, but I guess we'll see.

Centerfield Oct 20 2018 09:51 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Me too. But it’ll be Melvin.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 21 2018 07:50 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I agree on both counts. I want Ng or Bloom, but think it will be Melvin. And Melvin may be okay. I would be disappointed in the choice, but I don't think it will be a disaster if they hire him.

Frayed Knot Oct 21 2018 09:02 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: I think the dead guys turned them down. Or at least didn't respond when contacted.

HahnSolo Oct 21 2018 04:41 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I wish I knew a bit more about Ng. I know where she’s worked, but what’s her expertise? What is she best known for? Contracts? Personnel? Scouting?

MFS62 Oct 21 2018 04:53 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

HahnSolo wrote: I wish I knew a bit more about Ng. I know where she’s worked, but what’s her expertise? What is she best known for? Contracts? Personnel? Scouting? From Page 1 of this thread: by MFS62 » Mon Aug 06, 2018 9:00 pm Here's a candidate that checks off a lot of boxes. 1) Front Office administrative experience 2) MLB/ Commissioner's office experience. 3) "Minority" candidate (TWO EEO boxes checked) 4) Fred Wilpon's love for everything Dodgers 5) Highly respected 6) Probably will take a low salary to just get a chance 7) Has been discussed here before Only thing is, not much experience in the player part of the job. A candidate worthy of serious consideration? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Ng Hope that helps. Later

HahnSolo Oct 21 2018 05:16 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Ha. Thanks. Funny thing is I read her Wiki page before posting my question without realizing you had already done so. Yeah there’s not a lot of answers to be found there.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 22 2018 11:23 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Andy Martino wrote: If you're looking for clues into who might emerge with the job, I can tell you that the team has done considerable background work on Ng. She is under serious consideration for a second round interview. Mets set to make further cuts to GM list, begin second round

Edgy MD Oct 22 2018 11:55 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I wonder if that background will include reaching out to Bill Singer.

Centerfield Oct 22 2018 12:04 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Poor Bill Singer. Had he made those comments 20 years earlier he would have suffered no consequences. And had he made them in 2018 he probably would have gotten a standing ovation. If he had then moved from insensitive comments to sexual assault, he might have made the Supreme Court!

Benjamin Grimm Oct 22 2018 12:06 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I guess timing is everything.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 22 2018 12:09 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I had to refresh my memory on this. This is from the Los Angeles Times from November 15, 2003: PHOENIX — New York Met official Bill Singer, a former All-Star pitcher with the Dodgers and Angels, directed racially insensitive remarks at Dodger executive Kim Ng in deriding her Chinese heritage this week, baseball officials who witnessed the incident said Friday. Singer, hired last week as a special assistant to Met General Manager Jim Duquette, confronted Ng, a Dodger vice president and assistant general manager, late Tuesday night at the general manager meetings here. According to witnesses, Singer approached Ng in the bar of the hotel where the meetings occurred. After asking Ng, the highest-ranking Asian American in the major leagues, questions about her background in a sarcastic tone, Singer began speaking nonsensically in mock Chinese before eventually leaving.

Centerfield Oct 22 2018 12:09 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

In other news, Mike Puma is reporting that Ng is out, and that it's down to Melvin, Bloom and Van Wagenen. Melvin, not surprisingly, is the front-runner. I get the feeling it won't be long before it's official.

G-Fafif Oct 22 2018 12:10 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

DiComo attributes to a "source" the update that the candidates are now three: Bloom, Melvin, Van Wegenen. "All other candidates are out."

Centerfield Oct 22 2018 12:11 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I had to refresh my memory on this. This is from the Los Angeles Times from November 15, 2003: PHOENIX — New York Met official Bill Singer, a former All-Star pitcher with the Dodgers and Angels, directed racially insensitive remarks at Dodger executive Kim Ng in deriding her Chinese heritage this week, baseball officials who witnessed the incident said Friday. Singer, hired last week as a special assistant to Met General Manager Jim Duquette, confronted Ng, a Dodger vice president and assistant general manager, late Tuesday night at the general manager meetings here. According to witnesses, Singer approached Ng in the bar of the hotel where the meetings occurred. After asking Ng, the highest-ranking Asian American in the major leagues, questions about her background in a sarcastic tone, Singer began speaking nonsensically in mock Chinese before eventually leaving. If I recall, it was the "Where are you from?....No, like, where are you really from?" line of questioning that we Asian Americans so thoroughly love.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 22 2018 12:16 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I'm not familiar with this, but I totally believe it.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 22 2018 12:18 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Brodie Van Wagenen is Jacob deGrom's agent. (And also the agent of Cespedes and Syndergaard.) It would be very strange if the guy who would be negotiating deGrom's next contract suddenly moved to the other side of the table.

G-Fafif Oct 22 2018 12:29 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

"Brodie Van Wagenen" puts mind of "Earl J. Waggedorn," the best friend of Corey, son of the title character, on the groundbreaking multiracial (if painfully dull) NBC sitcom Julia. Sort of like I can't hear a reference to "Nido" and not think, "you say neato/check your libido/and roll to the church/in your new tuxedo" from Young MC's "Bust A Move". Which is not to say Van Wagenen wouldn't make a good general manager. Or that Tomas Nido won't develop into a splendid catcher, assuming Van Wegenen doesn't trade him.

41Forever Oct 22 2018 12:38 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I think the Mets tend to not be especially bold or innovative, and hiring an agent with no general manager experience seem unusually out of the box for the team. Actually, so does a young guy like Bloom. But, Mickey Callaway was sort of an out of the box pick as well, so they might surprise us.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 22 2018 01:01 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Yeah, I guess I'm behind Bloom here. It might be fun to have a guy named "Brodie" in charge, but Melvin appears the safest choice.

Lefty Specialist Oct 22 2018 01:13 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

G-Fafif wrote: "Brodie Van Wagenen" puts mind of "Earl J. Waggedorn," the best friend of Corey, son of the title character, on the groundbreaking multiracial (if painfully dull) NBC sitcom Julia. Sort of like I can't hear a reference to "Nido" and not think, "you say neato/check your libido/and roll to the church/in your new tuxedo" from Young MC's "Bust A Move". Which is not to say Van Wagenen wouldn't make a good general manager. Or that Tomas Nido won't develop into a splendid catcher, assuming Van Wegenen doesn't trade him. Brodie Van Wagenen sounds like something from a Marx Brothers movie.

Centerfield Oct 22 2018 01:15 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Lefty Specialist wrote: G-Fafif wrote: "Brodie Van Wagenen" puts mind of "Earl J. Waggedorn," the best friend of Corey, son of the title character, on the groundbreaking multiracial (if painfully dull) NBC sitcom Julia. Sort of like I can't hear a reference to "Nido" and not think, "you say neato/check your libido/and roll to the church/in your new tuxedo" from Young MC's "Bust A Move". Which is not to say Van Wagenen wouldn't make a good general manager. Or that Tomas Nido won't develop into a splendid catcher, assuming Van Wegenen doesn't trade him. Brodie Van Wagenen sounds like something from a Marx Brothers movie. Maybe Brodie could explain to us why I'd be the best man at the wedding of my best friend's brother.

metirish Oct 22 2018 01:48 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

41Forever wrote: I think the Mets tend to not be especially bold or innovative, and hiring an agent with no general manager experience seem unusually out of the box for the team. Actually, so does a young guy like Bloom. But, Mickey Callaway was sort of an out of the box pick as well, so they might surprise us. Mike Puma @NYPost_Mets I have talked to several people connected with the organization who believe Fred Wilpon will go the conservative route and pick Melvin, because the Mets' last "outside the box" pick, Mickey Callaway, has backfired somewhat.

G-Fafif Oct 22 2018 01:56 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

"We signed a player once," Wilpon told an intimate, according to a source, "and we didn't win a championship," explaining the Mets' decision to fill all their on-field positions next season with office furniture.

Centerfield Oct 22 2018 01:57 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I wonder if Kim Ng gets sick of clubs talking about how qualified she is, then proceeding on to hire another guy.

Edgy MD Oct 22 2018 02:01 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I think the same thing about De Jon Watson. Actually, I wondered it about Willie Randolph, but now I don't.

RealityChuck Oct 22 2018 02:02 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

G-Fafif wrote: "Brodie Van Wagenen" puts mind of "Earl J. Waggedorn," the best friend of Corey, son of the title character, on the groundbreaking multiracial (if painfully dull) NBC sitcom Julia. Sort of like I can't hear a reference to "Nido" and not think, "you say neato/check your libido/and roll to the church/in your new tuxedo" from Young MC's "Bust A Move". Which is not to say Van Wagenen wouldn't make a good general manager. Or that Tomas Nido won't develop into a splendid catcher, assuming Van Wegenen doesn't trade him. The conflict of interest automatically disqualifies him. Even if he stops representing ballplayers, his personal relationship with them is going to be an issue. It makes no sense to bring in someone with no experience judging talent and a limited knowledge of statistics (not really having to know them and apply them).

Edgy MD Oct 22 2018 02:10 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

It's certainly not taking the long view, but I'd hope there'd be some benefit with regard to signing Jacob deGrom if they hire his agent to run the team.

41Forever Oct 22 2018 02:31 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

G-Fafif wrote: "We signed a player once," Wilpon told an intimate, according to a source, "and we didn't win a championship," explaining the Mets' decision to fill all their on-field positions next season with office furniture. To be fair, an ottoman had more range than Derek Jeter. Heck, a sofa would have a ton more range that Jeter!

G-Fafif Oct 22 2018 02:44 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

41Forever wrote: To be fair, an ottoman had more range than Derek Jeter. Heck, a sofa would have a ton more range that Jeter! Jeter the sofa made teammates better just by their sitting on him.

41Forever Oct 22 2018 02:50 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

G-Fafif wrote: 41Forever wrote: To be fair, an ottoman had more range than Derek Jeter. Heck, a sofa would have a ton more range that Jeter! Jeter the sofa made teammates better just by their sitting on him. This would be a good project for a physics class. Here's Derek fielding a ground ball. He's not bothering to bend over, or even use his glove, for that matter. I give him a range of about a foot in either direction. Maybe a little more toward second when ARod was at third because he didn't want ARod to catch any of his intangibles. Now here's the sofa. There's gotta be a good six feet there. Probably gives better post-game interviews. Plus, it runs faster than Jorge Posada. There might even be some change under the cushions to help play off Jacoby's contract. And when it gets older or a little rough around the edges, you just fleece the Marlins or Royals for a new one.

Lefty Specialist Oct 22 2018 04:59 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

This is the more likely furniture if they hire a fossil like Bob Melvin to be GM...

MFS62 Oct 22 2018 08:21 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Hiring the agent for one of your (star) players is like hiring Bonnie and Clyde to guard your bank. Later

Edgy MD Oct 22 2018 09:37 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

How so? I mean, he clearly wouldn't represent deGrom (or Syndergaard or Céspedes) anymore. Any kickback he'd get if he signed one of 'em to an overly generous contract would clearly be illegal and hard to hide.

Lefty Specialist Oct 23 2018 06:49 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Why would any agent give up a lucrative job to work for the Wilpons? It does not make sense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwdba9C2G14

Benjamin Grimm Oct 23 2018 07:11 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

This is cover #263 in this year's Tabloid Cover Derby. It's chances of winning are... slim.

Centerfield Oct 23 2018 07:40 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I don't know where people get the idea that Melvin is "old school" or that his ideas are outdated. He's using a cell phone! And wearing sunglasses! Come on!

Benjamin Grimm Oct 23 2018 07:44 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

It's probably that Wilford Brimley mustache.

MFS62 Oct 23 2018 07:51 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Edgy MD wrote: How so? I mean, he clearly wouldn't represent deGrom (or Syndergaard or Céspedes) anymore. Any kickback he'd get if he signed one of 'em to an overly generous contract would clearly be illegal and hard to hide. Aside from my attempt at humor, his firm still would. Are those players (or some of them) still under contract with that firm? IMO, it would be like when Dick Cheney left Halliburton to become VP. Then, three major NO BID contracts were awarded to Halliburton when Desert Storm started. It might not happen overtly. And every time as GM he signed a player represented by that firm instead of another player, the fans, and the press, would have a concern. Any decision by a GM is subject to scrutiny. Why add another level of concern? I'd pick someone else. Later

Centerfield Oct 23 2018 07:56 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: It's chances of winning are... slim. And speak for yourself. This might be the Metsiest cover of 2018. "Hey staffers, listen up. These orders from directly from the boss. I need you to find me a badass picture of Doug Melvin. I want everyone to look at this picture and say "Wow, that is one cutting edge mother fucker. You have an hour. Go!"

Centerfield Oct 23 2018 07:58 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Edgy MD wrote: How so? I mean, he clearly wouldn't represent deGrom (or Syndergaard or Céspedes) anymore. Any kickback he'd get if he signed one of 'em to an overly generous contract would clearly be illegal and hard to hide. I think it's a pretty clear conflict of interest. Any information he has on any of his clients as their fiduciary could now be used to their detriment. Put it this way. You are Jacob deGrom. You've told your agent what you want in terms of a deal. How you should start the bidding, what you will ultimately accept. Now, a month later, he goes and sits on the other side of the table. Are you happy about this?

Centerfield Oct 23 2018 08:25 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Doug Melvin will interview today, then speak to the media at 1 p.m. Pretty strange for a candidate to speak to the media during the hiring process no? If the Mets want us to believe that the interviews were an actual process, and not just a charade knowing all along that they were going to hire Melvin, they are doing a pretty bad job of faking it.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 23 2018 08:29 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I think the media interaction is part of the interview. How is this guy with the press?

Benjamin Grimm Oct 23 2018 08:34 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

The plan was for all of the second-round candidates to speak to the media. So Bloom and Brodie (whose last name I may have to try to remember) will get their chances too.

Centerfield Oct 23 2018 08:48 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Got it. That makes sense. I think I'd be interested to hear Chaim Bloom speak. So far he's my favorite, but only because he's been described as smart, and subscribing to analytics. I'd like to see how he handles the NY media.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 23 2018 09:33 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I thought I heard that bullshit statement issued by Brodie yesterday was his way of doing this press interaction. He can continue to be organic for all I care

metirish Oct 23 2018 09:45 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Lord , how overplayed is the NY Media landscape? they are so demanding etc...no one loves hearing that more than the NY media I bet.

41Forever Oct 23 2018 10:39 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I think that's a pretty good idea to have that be part of the interview. If nothing else, it gives the candidate an idea what to expect. And, from the Mets perspective, if they are going to go outside the box it would give the team an idea of what type of support the person will need. Not saying doing poorly would doom a candidate -- but show where he needs some assistance to grow.

Centerfield Oct 23 2018 12:37 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Beat guys seem to think Melvin handled himself fine, but wasn't exactly spectacular. So, not surprising at all. Says he would mix scouting and analytics, believes Fred and Jeff would give him control, and would be inclined to keep Mickey. I don't see anything indicating whether or not payroll was discussed.

G-Fafif Oct 23 2018 01:42 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I believe they had the managerial candidates do a "meet the media" session last year.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 23 2018 01:58 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Wouldn't it be a hell of a thing if the Mets hire Brodie Van Wagenen and, needing a new agent, deGrom and Syndergaard sign with Scott Boras? Maybe they'd be better off with Doug Melvin. Or if they can't get him, they can call Melvyn Douglas. (They did say that they would consider some dead candidates, didn't they?) (I think this poster has it backwards. It seems to be identifying the guy on the left as Loretta Young and the woman on the right as Melvyn Douglas. Actually, the opposite is true. I just wanted to clear that up.)

Benjamin Grimm Oct 23 2018 02:02 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

FUN FACT: According to Matt Ehalt at NewJersey.com, Brodie Van Wagenen is the son-in-law of Neil Armstrong! Yes, THAT guy!

Edgy MD Oct 23 2018 02:54 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: (I think this poster has it backwards. It seems to be identifying the guy on the left as Loretta Young and the woman on the right as Melvyn Douglas. Actually, the opposite is true. I just wanted to clear that up.) For some reason, this has long been the standard with film posters, with the actors' names deliberately not positioned to correspond with their images. Maybe they think it'll make you study the poster harder. [fimg=250]https://i.etsystatic.com/17437897/r/il/d76b81/1529230467/il_570xN.1529230467_jw4b.jpg[/fimg] [fimg=350]https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/c70149c8-aba9-4524-aabf-749a990afd28_1.1266c0bcf906b4c45f042ca47c24100b.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF[/fimg]

41Forever Oct 23 2018 03:37 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

FUN FACT: According to Matt Ehalt at NewJersey.com, Brodie Van Wagenen is the son-in-law of Neil Armstrong! Yes, THAT guy! He also received a baseball scholarship from Stanford University, where he graduated with a degree in communications. Not a bad skill set to have dealing with such a huge market.

Frayed Knot Oct 23 2018 06:06 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

FUN FACT: According to Matt Ehalt at NewJersey.com, Brodie Van Wagenen is the son-in-law of Neil Armstrong! Yes, THAT guy! OK, I'm confused here. Armstrong had but one daughter who died as a child. Did Armstrong's second wife have a daughter from a previous marriage who later married BVW? If so that makes Armstrong more of a step-Father in Law?

Centerfield Oct 23 2018 06:58 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Been reading up on the days events. It’s disheartening. Maybe he’ll surprise us but if Melvin is hired it’s hard not to think this is more of the same type of backwards thinking that Has handcuffed the Mets for so long. It’s like this franchise is just doomed to incompetence.

MFS62 Oct 23 2018 07:01 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Edgy MD wrote: [fimg=350]https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/c70149c8-aba9-4524-aabf-749a990afd28_1.1266c0bcf906b4c45f042ca47c24100b.jpeg?odnHeight=450&odnWidth=450&odnBg=FFFFFF[/fimg] I really liked that movie. Later

Benjamin Grimm Oct 23 2018 08:14 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

FUN FACT: According to Matt Ehalt at NewJersey.com, Brodie Van Wagenen is the son-in-law of Neil Armstrong! Yes, THAT guy! OK, I'm confused here. Armstrong had but one daughter who died as a child. Did Armstrong's second wife have a daughter from a previous marriage who later married BVW? If so that makes Armstrong more of a step-Father in Law? Could he be married to Neil Armstrong's son???

Edgy MD Oct 23 2018 08:43 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Yes, Bodie is married to Molly, Neil's step-daughter.

MFS62 Oct 24 2018 07:07 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Matthew Cerrone's take: https://www.sny.tv/mets/news/get-to-kno ... /299527348 Later

Benjamin Grimm Oct 24 2018 07:27 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Cerrone suggests that the Mets hire both Melvin and Bloom, which is an interesting idea. I don't know how likely it is, though. Do the Mets want to hire two people? And would both candidates be willing to take the job under those conditions?

Centerfield Oct 24 2018 07:54 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Cerrone suggests that the Mets hire both Melvin and Bloom, which is an interesting idea. I don't know how likely it is, though. Do the Mets want to hire two people? And would both candidates be willing to take the job under those conditions? Hey we're the Mets! Other teams win championships, but we have FIVE GM's! Name one other club that can say that. Can't do it can ya? Can ya?

Centerfield Oct 24 2018 07:56 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

But all kidding aside, Bloom sounds smart. I'd like to get him into the organization.

41Forever Oct 24 2018 08:19 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Cerrone suggests that the Mets hire both Melvin and Bloom, which is an interesting idea. I don't know how likely it is, though. Do the Mets want to hire two people? And would both candidates be willing to take the job under those conditions? Well, Melvin is 66 and Bloom is 35. I can see a situation where we bring Melvin on board knowing that he's here a relatively short time, taking Bloom under his wing and allowing him to gain some of the experience he's missing, be the heir apparent and step into the role in two or three years. Kind of like the Emperor and Darth Vader without the black robes and Jar Jar.

Centerfield Oct 24 2018 08:26 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

How's this for a conspiracy theory. Bud Selig made the Mets hire Sandy Alderson and gave Sandy the directive to keep the budget under control. Bud Selig is now making the Mets hire Doug Melvin with the directive that the he keep the budget under control. Crazy?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 24 2018 10:14 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Don;t buy it, completely. When Sandy was hired ("installed" is more like it) the Mets were $25M in debt to MLB and Bud needed to be sure he got paid back. The Mets iirc paid back Bud by selling portions of the club to Bill Mahar, the 1800 Flowers guy, and SNY etc. One of the things that worries me now is that the Mets have been left to their own devices to figure out who to name next and that's always been a problem for the Wilpons who don't really know what they want.

vtmet Oct 24 2018 10:31 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Cerrone suggests that the Mets hire both Melvin and Bloom, which is an interesting idea. I don't know how likely it is, though. Do the Mets want to hire two people? And would both candidates be willing to take the job under those conditions? Hey we're the Mets! Other teams win championships, but we have FIVE GM's! Name one other club that can say that. Can't do it can ya? Can ya? is that much different than the Chicago Cubs front office structure? Theo Epstein gets a lot of credit for the work that he did in Boston and also in Chicago...but is he the guy making decisions in Chicago or is Jed Hoyer? Theo is technically not the GM, and Hoyer technically is the GM, but aren't both involved in major decision making? https://www.mlb.com/cubs/team/front-office Baseball Operations President, Baseball Operations - Theo Epstein Executive Vice President, General Manager - Jed Hoyer Assistant General Manager - Randy Bush Assistant General Manager - Scott Harris Assistant General Manager, Strategic Initiatives - Shiraz Rehman Director, Baseball Operations - Jeff Greenberg Director, Major League Travel - Vijay Tekchandani Senior Advisor - Billy Williams Executive Assistant to President and EVP/GM, Baseball Operations - Meghan Jones Coordinator, Baseball Operations - Greg Davey Assistant, Baseball Operations - Alex Smith Trainee, Baseball Operations - Adam Unes MLB Diversity Fellow - Katie Carlson

Frayed Knot Oct 24 2018 12:19 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

vtmet wrote: is that much different than the Chicago Cubs front office structure? Theo Epstein gets a lot of credit for the work that he did in Boston and also in Chicago...but is he the guy making decisions in Chicago or is Jed Hoyer? Theo is technically not the GM, and Hoyer technically is the GM, but aren't both involved in major decision making? A lot depends on how things are structured. The Cubs, as well as Oakland and a bunch of other teams, have, in effect, a CEO of baseball who sets the direction and philosophy for the org while the GM does the day to day handling of GM type of things (negotiations, trade talks, etc.). But if it's set up with a several-headed GM where no one is really in charge and where each might have slightly different ideas of how to go about things then the oars aren't exactly all pulling in the same direction and often whoever the owners listen to last gets his way. Steinbrenner used to act like that where he'd essentially have his Tampa-based group of advisors fight it out with the GM and his office in NY to see whose ideas he liked better, at which point he'd threaten them with "This Better Work!" and publicly name whose idea it was if/when it didn't (never himself of course). The other group was then the favorite for a while until they fell out of favor. Not surprisingly, since I think they're essentially the same person, Trump operates his management "style" that way as well. So while it's not inconceivable that a theoretical Melvin/Bloom team could succeed, you'd want to have the job descriptions separate and, even then, the main problem would still be the idea that the Wilpons don't seem willing to have the overall direction of the franchise set by anyone but themselves.

smg58 Oct 24 2018 12:55 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I'm hoping for a Bialystock/Bloom team myself. They nailed it without even trying. Of course, they wound up spending more than they brought in...

Centerfield Oct 24 2018 05:31 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

It’s just astonishing that after getting burned by not listening to the analytics team last year when they signed Vargas and Bruce, that they would double down and venture even further away. This sort of incompetence is how you end up creating a culture of losing. I am so sick of this team being a laughingstock.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 24 2018 08:35 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

It's almost as if this organization has no overarching vision for what they'd like to be. Next thing you know, they'll be eschewing homegrown traditions because they're mildly inconvenient, in favor of borrowed, warmed-over roster ideas, in-game presentation shtick, and stadium design.

Ashie62 Oct 24 2018 09:09 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Bloom performed a miracle in Tampa Bay. How can you not offer him???

Benjamin Grimm Oct 25 2018 06:59 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

A couple of days ago, Kristie Ackert had a column saying that we shouldn't assume that Doug Melvin is a no-analytics guy. Now she's telling us that we shouldn't assume the opposite about Chaim Bloom. Ackert: Chaim Bloom may be youngest candidate for Mets' GM opening, but don't assume he's just an analytics guy

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 25 2018 07:16 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Friedman performed similar wonders under similar constraint during his TB tenure. He's been doing all right (with a slightly bigger budget) since he moved on. I kinda like Doug Melvin. But I look at the job Bloom has done with player evaluation, player development AND scouting-- all under SEVERE financial duress, and I'm intrigued. Hell, Bloom even has experience with exotic, Bob-and-Carol-and-Ted-and-Alice* GM divisions-of-labor. We know what Melvin is, and that's potentially extremely useful. I know he's more than just an old-schoolbaseballliferblahblah, and I don't mean to denigrate him by pointing up Bloom. I'm just frustrated and worried that THAT would be a primary criterion for his selection. *That's one for you Melvin contemporaries out there.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 25 2018 07:24 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I think I agree. I'm not going to gnash my teeth if it's Melvin, but I prefer Bloom.

Centerfield Oct 25 2018 07:36 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

A couple of days ago, Kristie Ackert had a column saying that we shouldn't assume that Doug Melvin is a no-analytics guy. Now she's telling us that we shouldn't assume the opposite about Chaim Bloom. Ackert: Chaim Bloom may be youngest candidate for Mets' GM opening, but don't assume he's just an analytics guy I like everything I read about this guy. I really hope Fred can be convinced to go this way. I'm encouraged that Ackert has such a positive piece on him. Maybe the decision hasn't been made after all. Fingers crossed.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 25 2018 09:30 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Ackert's reporting on this story, as balanced as it is, IMO fails to wholly contextualize the situation. She notes for example that Melvin could mend the alleged disharmony in the front office but doesn't tell us why (hint: It's because Fred hired Sandy's predecessor and the manager he fired as his "special guys.")

Centerfield Oct 25 2018 10:01 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Word is that Bloom will not have a press conference. He will only issue a statement, like Brodie did earlier. Based on that it's hard not to conclude the Melvin is the guy and has been all along. Sucks if this is true. Really was hoping they would go Bloom.

HahnSolo Oct 25 2018 10:38 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I thought Bloom was going to do the conference call with the media the morning after his second interview? Has that changed?

d'Kong76 Oct 25 2018 10:45 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

They probably made Melvin an offer in September and all this other stuff has been one big Wilponion charade. Me? Bitter? Nah...

Benjamin Grimm Oct 25 2018 10:54 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Mike Puma wrote: Chaim Bloom is taking a pass on speaking publicly about his interest in the Mets’ opening for a head of baseball operations. The Rays senior VP of baseball operations is expected to issue a statement Thursday, a day after he met with Mets owner Fred Wilpon and COO Jeff Wilpon in a second interview with club officials. It’s possible Bloom’s reluctance to speak publicly stems from the fact he is still employed by the Rays, or it could signal he is no longer a serious candidate for the position. Earlier this week agent Brodie Van Wagenen issued a statement about his interview with the Mets in place of a conference call.

Centerfield Oct 25 2018 11:19 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Chaim Bloom statement: We had a productive meeting yesterday. There was a lot of baseball conversation and I enjoyed the time we spent together. Um. Ok. So I'm guessing he has either withdrawn, or he's of the mindset that he's out of the running.

metirish Oct 25 2018 11:20 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 25 2018 11:31 AM

Could be Bloom knows this is all BS and why bother doing a phony presser

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 25 2018 11:24 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

We had a productive meeting yesterday. There was a lot of baseball conversation and I enjoyed the time we spent together. oh my god

Benjamin Grimm Oct 25 2018 11:26 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I enjoyed the time we spent together. That's like a polite way to say that you're not interested in a second date. Disappointing. Imagine how we (and the Wilpons) will feel if Bloom goes to San Diego or somewhere and builds a ten-year dynasty.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 25 2018 11:30 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

[tweet:1bgzovip]https://twitter.com/AnthonyDiComo/status/1055511050249035776[/tweet:1bgzovip] [tweet:1bgzovip]https://twitter.com/AnthonyDiComo/status/1055502337647828992[/tweet:1bgzovip]

Benjamin Grimm Oct 25 2018 11:37 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Well, I hope it's the "respect for his current role" thing, but it's not like his bosses in Tampa don't know he's interviewing.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 25 2018 11:37 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I'm beginning to think Chaim turned the Mets down

d'Kong76 Oct 25 2018 12:02 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Sure sounds like it. I mean really, who'd wanna front this dysfunctional mess with Jeff and Fred breathing down your neck in the morning and pulling back your reins in the afternoon day after day week after week... #lgm #ygb #tkti

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 25 2018 12:16 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I enjoyed the time we spent together. That's like a polite way to say that you're not interested in a second date. Disappointing. Imagine how we (and the Wilpons) will feel if Bloom goes to San Diego or somewhere and builds a ten-year dynasty. See, Melvin might do well here. But I don't have any-- ANY-- concern that he would go elsewhere and build a juggernaut.

G-Fafif Oct 25 2018 12:26 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I enjoyed the time we spent together. Just to have a laugh and sing a song. Then he tugged his ear and was gone until next Saturday night at 10/9 Central.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 25 2018 12:30 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

yes the whole thing is such a downer. I'd probably prefer they promoted John Ricco

41Forever Oct 25 2018 12:38 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

G-Fafif wrote: I enjoyed the time we spent together. Just to have a laugh and sing a song. Then he tugged his ear and was gone until next Saturday night at 10/9 Central. Nice! There's also the chance the Rays didn't want him to leave and increased his duties or pay to stay there. And, I also get that he wants to be respectful to the people signing his paychecks now.

d'Kong76 Oct 25 2018 12:45 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I know you can't help it, but probably much more likely he just doesn't want work for/under the Wilpons.

Centerfield Oct 25 2018 01:01 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

d'Kong76 wrote: I know you can't help it, but probably much more likely he just doesn't want work for/under the Wilpons. Glad it's not just me.

41Forever Oct 25 2018 01:40 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Martino said it would be premature to rule anyone out. Andy Martino ✔ @martinonyc I wasn't going to weigh in on this until I had done reporting, but now I can confidently say that the Mets gave each candidate the chance to do a conference call. Melvin was fine with it, Van Wagenen and Bloom opted not to. Nothing more to it than that. 1:09 PM - Oct 25, 2018

Edgy MD Oct 25 2018 02:16 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Yeah, I understand that one could feel like it would be the equivalent of putting on Team B's hat while you're still with Team A.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 25 2018 02:34 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Andy Martino also posted how serious the Mets were about Kim Ng about an hour before they ruled her out.

Edgy MD Oct 25 2018 02:41 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

That's relevant, but my comment wasn't really in response to anything Andy Martino wrote. Besides, the real Andy Martino would've written "If the Mets aren't serious about Kim Ng, I'll wear a Speedo to Spring Training."

Benjamin Grimm Oct 25 2018 02:46 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Even though my post immediately followed yours, I wasn't responding to you. I was reacting to the quote that Michigan posted above yours.

41Forever Oct 25 2018 02:51 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Edgy MD wrote: Besides, the real Andy Martino would've written "If the Mets aren't serious about Kim Ng, I'll wear a Speedo to Spring Training." Nooooo.

bmfc1 Oct 25 2018 03:34 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

So much for the speculation: [tweet:hqirxag2]https://twitter.com/AnthonyDiComo/status/1055572389822652418[/tweet:hqirxag2]

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 25 2018 03:34 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

wow....

Benjamin Grimm Oct 25 2018 03:39 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I'm VERY surprised. Does Brodie really have a shot? Or should we start ordering our Chaim Bloom jerseys?

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 25 2018 03:51 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I'm now predicting it's Brodie-Bloom. Analytic Fred doesn't trust anyone under 60, but if you do the math...

Edgy MD Oct 25 2018 04:06 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Melvin fatalism takes it on the chin. The giant lantern chin. Very exciting. Then again, the drama ain't over. If it ends up to be BVW, there's going to be some serious howling if Tim Tebow makes the team-o.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 25 2018 05:46 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

This just got real. Does anyone here have an idea what the Brodie-peal would be? I'm trying to tamp down my burgeoning Bloomrection here.

Nymr83 Oct 25 2018 05:58 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I vote for mister Bloom mostly to watch which media clowns cant pronounce the 'ch' properly

MFS62 Oct 25 2018 06:14 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Nymr83 wrote: I vote for mister Bloom mostly to watch which media clowns cant pronounce the 'ch' properly I had the same thought. Later

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 25 2018 06:35 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I guess its Hy-em? #ignorant All I know is that's Gene Simmons' real first name Chaim Witz. I found out today Chaim is from Philly and a big Darren Daulton fan.

Centerfield Oct 25 2018 07:51 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Of course, if we hire Bloom, then it’s awkward when we sit down to negotiate deGrom’s extension...

Lefty Specialist Oct 26 2018 06:15 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote: I guess its Hy-em? #ignorant All I know is that's Gene Simmons' real first name Chaim Witz. I found out today Chaim is from Philly and a big Darren Daulton fan. Great; don't let him drive.

Edgy MD Oct 26 2018 07:12 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

If he gets hired, I nominate "The Demon" as a nickname.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 26 2018 07:17 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Please explain your nickname methodology.

Edgy MD Oct 26 2018 07:19 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I was trying to remember that poster's name.

41Forever Oct 26 2018 07:30 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Please explain your nickname methodology. Gene Simmons is the Demon in Kiss. There was a wrestler -- Jeff Torborg's son, actually -- who wore Gene's makeup and wrestled under the Demon name, too!

Benjamin Grimm Oct 26 2018 07:48 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Andy Martino wrote: Van Wagenen in lead for Mets job, Bloom not eliminated. Story up soon Andy Martino wrote: Source: Mets don’t plan to hire both Bloom and Van Wagenen

Centerfield Oct 26 2018 07:57 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

This is just nuts. Hopefully Van Wagenen is leading like the way Melvin was leading.

HahnSolo Oct 26 2018 08:05 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I don't know what to think now. The Wilpons hiring an ex-agent to run their operation really has the potential to be a comical failure. Prove me wrong Brodie.

HahnSolo Oct 26 2018 08:08 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I also think there is something to JCL's theory that the Wilpons like to float things out there to get the pulse of the fan base. That could explain why Melvin went from frontrunner after interviews, then once it got out there that he was the frontrunner, shortly thereafter he is removed from consideration. Maybe if enough noise is made about Brodie the Wilpons will change their minds again. [Edited to note that CF said something similar in the Melvin thread]

Centerfield Oct 26 2018 08:11 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

And keep in mind, these leaks are coming from Andy Martino, who cashes checks from the Wilpons. I don't get how any "journalist" can think they can continue to be a journalist, when they are paid by the people they are meant to cover. From that point on, you are now a spokesman. On Edit: Judging from Martino's twitter activity this morning, he is going full salesman on BVW this morning. Tweeting about how smart and well-respected BVW is.

smg58 Oct 26 2018 08:39 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: Of course, if we hire Bloom, then it’s awkward when we sit down to negotiate deGrom’s extension... It's pretty damn awkward either way.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 26 2018 08:50 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

There's been speculation that the Mets hope to make their announcement on Monday, the World Series travel day. (Of course, the Series may be concluded by then.) If so, we'll have our answer soon enough. Bloom seems the obvious and logical choice. It's strange to hear that Brodie is the front-runner. I'm skeptical of that.

Centerfield Oct 26 2018 11:49 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Jeff Passan also reporting through sources that say it's going to be Van Wagenen. I guess if we've learned anything it's that we won't know anything until this is all done. But what a letdown that would be. I will say this. It was nice to go to bed, even for just one night, optimistic that change might be coming for the Mets.

RealityChuck Oct 26 2018 12:40 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I can't see Van Whatisname as being successful. I suspect the main reason to hire him would be to keep the triumvirate to make baseball decisions and have him negotiating contracts. But Fred wanted a good baseball man and Jeff wanted someone versed in analytics, so they compromised and chose someone who didn't have background in either.

metirish Oct 26 2018 12:42 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

@AnthonyDiComo According to multiple sources, the Mets expect to negotiate an offer for CAA agent Brodie Van Wagenen to become their next general manager. It's not a done deal, but the job is Van Wagenen's if he and the Mets can come to an agreement. A final answer should come next week. @ryan_james1992 Replying to @AnthonyDiComo What could swing this in Bloom’s favor, if anything? Anthony DiComo ‏ Van Wagenen saying no is the only thing that would stop it.

Edgy MD Oct 26 2018 01:17 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I imagine VW has a tough agent to deal with.

d'Kong76 Oct 26 2018 01:18 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Van Whatshisnuts©? What a fucking bizarre joke if this comes to fruition. Give me Chaim, or give me death! 41Forever wrote: There was a wrestler -- Jeff Torborg's son, actually -- who wore Gene's makeup and wrestled under the Demon name, too! I don't think I ever knew Torborg had a professional wrestling son. If I once knew that, the memory resides in the fragmented portion of my noggin'.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 26 2018 01:32 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Well, if it's Van Wagenen I'll just have to say, "I hope they know what they're doing." That's not an especially comforting notion.

Edgy MD Oct 26 2018 01:40 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

d'Kong76 wrote: Van Whatshisnuts©? What a fucking bizarre joke if this comes to fruition. Give me Chaim, or give me death! 41Forever wrote: There was a wrestler -- Jeff Torborg's son, actually -- who wore Gene's makeup and wrestled under the Demon name, too! I don't think I ever knew Torborg had a professional wrestling son. If I once knew that, the memory resides in the fragmented portion of my noggin'. It came up in these parts. It hurt Torborg's tenure with the Marlins, as he hired his son to be a trainer and you can imagine how that worked out, but he's stayed in the game, has been part of two championship teams, and is still the conditioning coordinator for the Chicago White Sox.

41Forever Oct 26 2018 02:19 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Edgy MD wrote: d'Kong76 wrote: Van Whatshisnuts©? What a fucking bizarre joke if this comes to fruition. Give me Chaim, or give me death! 41Forever wrote: There was a wrestler -- Jeff Torborg's son, actually -- who wore Gene's makeup and wrestled under the Demon name, too! I don't think I ever knew Torborg had a professional wrestling son. If I once knew that, the memory resides in the fragmented portion of my noggin'. It came up in these parts. It hurt Torborg's tenure with the Marlins, as he hired his son to be a trainer and you can imagine how that worked out, but he's stayed in the game, has been part of two championship teams, and is still the conditioning coordinator for the Chicago White Sox. Dale as Demon. Dale as a White Sox trainer. Note the barbell cap!

41Forever Oct 26 2018 02:24 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Well, if it's Van Wagenen I'll just have to say, "I hope they know what they're doing." That's not an especially comforting notion. We kind of beat them up when we think they are going the traditional route with Melvin, so I think we need to give them the opportunity to try something different and innovative. I like his statement from the other day: "I have regular dialogue with all 30 teams. These conversations share a central theme; how can I help make the team better?" "In my role as an agent, my solution is to create opportunities for players to be successful both on and off the field. By creating partnerships between players and teams, the interests of all parties can be aligned. If the players are able to reach their peak potential, the fans will be rewarded with a competitive team that can contend for championships year in and year out. The Clubs benefit with compelling, sustainable and profitable entertainment franchises; and the players are rewarded with a platform to realize their childhood dreams while receiving compensation consistent with their tremendous talents." "My conversations with the Mets continue to be organic. I believe baseball is better when the Mets are competitive and successful. That success is better for the fans, players, and the economy of the sport. As Jeff and Fred continue their search for a new head of baseball operations, the players, fans and entire organization will be motivated to have a leader with the skills and commitment to win. If the Wilpon's believe I am that person, we will have that conversation."

HahnSolo Oct 26 2018 02:27 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Lot of buzzwords there. Not a lot of “this is how I will make the team better”.

Centerfield Oct 26 2018 02:38 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

41Forever wrote: We kind of beat them up when we think they are going the traditional route with Melvin, so I think we need to give them the opportunity to try something different and innovative. So first off, "we" (inclusive of you) have never beaten them up for a thing. No matter what the Wilpons do, you stretch and justify, and twist to spin it in a positive light. You do this but still claim to be neutral on the Wilpons. The act is tired and old. We (exclusive of you) panned them when it looked like they were going Melvin, because Melvin was nearly universally accepted across the board as a bad choice, or at least, not the best choice. That is why we (exclusive of you) celebrated when he was eliminated. We (presumably inclusive of you) were ready to applaud them if they picked Bloom. He seems to be head and shoulders the best candidate. And now we (exclusive of you) are wary when they try this unconventional approach. We know almost nothing about Van Wagenen. Is he versed in analytics? Does he have any experience whatsoever in scouting? Does he have any idea how to budget a team? What are his relationships with other agents? How will he resolve issues with his current clients, a few of them being very important to the Mets? And we (exclusive of you) are right to question that when there is a clearly well-qualified candidate right there for the taking. And given their history of incompetence we (inclusive of you) can rightfully be skeptical. 41Forever wrote: I like his statement from the other day: "I have regular dialogue with all 30 teams. These conversations share a central theme; how can I help make the team better?" "In my role as an agent, my solution is to create opportunities for players to be successful both on and off the field. By creating partnerships between players and teams, the interests of all parties can be aligned. If the players are able to reach their peak potential, the fans will be rewarded with a competitive team that can contend for championships year in and year out. The Clubs benefit with compelling, sustainable and profitable entertainment franchises; and the players are rewarded with a platform to realize their childhood dreams while receiving compensation consistent with their tremendous talents." "My conversations with the Mets continue to be organic. I believe baseball is better when the Mets are competitive and successful. That success is better for the fans, players, and the economy of the sport. As Jeff and Fred continue their search for a new head of baseball operations, the players, fans and entire organization will be motivated to have a leader with the skills and commitment to win. If the Wilpon's believe I am that person, we will have that conversation." It's a bullshit statement. I could write it in 5 minutes.

41Forever Oct 26 2018 03:07 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 26 2018 03:44 PM

Centerfield wrote: It's a bullshit statement. I could write it in 5 minutes. You are a very talented writer. I don't know why you continue to attack me. I'm certainly not looking for a fight. There is no reason to make these discussions personal. We can disagree and still be pleasant.

G-Fafif Oct 26 2018 03:22 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Ari Gold left agenting to run a studio, albeit on Entourage.

sharpie Oct 26 2018 03:54 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I'm actually kind of surprised that this hasn't happened before. Agents deal with players and management on a regular basis and good ones should know the business well and at least would be concerned about players staying healthy, something the Mets have been pretty bad at in recent years. They also scout talent, albeit for different reasons. If Van Wagenen is smart he'll hire people versed on the scouting side and get a good analytics team in place. Agents negotiate for a living. Transferring that skill to making trades and finding the right fit on the free agent market is not impossible I know dozens of agents. In publishing people move between agencies and the management of publishing houses all the time. Not apples to apples but there is a connection.

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 26 2018 04:30 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

yeah I'm not against Bro per se, but I'm curious as to the use case, as it were. you figure there's a financial angle, if there's a dog whistle to Fred in his statement it's when he talks about the club being profitable. I'm sure his clients just move to CAA colleagues, no bd.

d'Kong76 Oct 26 2018 04:38 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I see no attacking, still see envelopes being pushed. Good weekend to all, Go Sawx!

Frayed Knot Oct 26 2018 06:08 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Once again I am amazed by the fact that a NYM internal decision, made supposedly by a very narrow group of insiders (possibly as few as two) stays a secret FOR LIKE TEN FUCKING MINUTES!!!!

MFS62 Oct 26 2018 07:07 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

HahnSolo wrote: Lot of buzzwords there. Not a lot of “this is how I will make the team better”. And, there has been no mention of any (non-negotiating related) baseball skill he brings to the table. None. Not one. Does he have any? Player scouting? Player evaluation? Player development? Building a roster? Anything? Buehler? And (I think Kase brought this up) when he does negotiate with the players he has represented, won't conflict of interest issues arise with his ex-partners who will still be representing those players? Sounds like a SNAFU waiting to happen. Later

d'Kong76 Oct 26 2018 07:25 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

And (I think Kase brought this up) Wasn't me

MFS62 Oct 26 2018 07:30 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

d'Kong76 wrote: And (I think Kase brought this up) Wasn't me Still a good point. Later

Centerfield Oct 26 2018 07:54 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

41Forever wrote: Centerfield wrote: It's a bullshit statement. I could write it in 5 minutes. You are a very talented writer. I don't know why you continue to attack me. I'm certainly not looking for a fight. There is no reason to make these discussions personal. We can disagree and still be pleasant. I do it because it bugs the shit out of me that someone can be so dishonest without giving it a second thought. Go through your posts. Give me an example of you beating up the Wilpons over Melvin and I will gladly retract my statement.

41Forever Oct 26 2018 08:08 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: Centerfield wrote: It's a bullshit statement. I could write it in 5 minutes. You are a very talented writer. I don't know why you continue to attack me. I'm certainly not looking for a fight. There is no reason to make these discussions personal. We can disagree and still be pleasant. I do it because it bugs the shit out of me that someone can be so dishonest without giving it a second thought. Go through your posts. Give me an example of you beating up the Wilpons over Melvin and I will gladly retract my statement. Oh stop. I'm not dishonest. It was a collective "we." You know it. Just stop. This is getting creepy.

Frayed Knot Oct 26 2018 08:11 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

MFS62 wrote: HahnSolo wrote: Lot of buzzwords there. Not a lot of “this is how I will make the team better”. And, there has been no mention of any (non-negotiating related) baseball skill he brings to the table. None. Not one. Does he have any? Player scouting? Player evaluation? Player development? Building a roster? Anything? Buehler? Don't you think that agents do their share scouting, evaluating, and analyzing players?

Centerfield Oct 26 2018 08:20 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

41Forever wrote: 41Forever wrote: It's a bullshit statement. I could write it in 5 minutes. You are a very talented writer. I don't know why you continue to attack me. I'm certainly not looking for a fight. There is no reason to make these discussions personal. We can disagree and still be pleasant. I do it because it bugs the shit out of me that someone can be so dishonest without giving it a second thought. Go through your posts. Give me an example of you beating up the Wilpons over Melvin and I will gladly retract my statement. Oh stop. I'm not dishonest. It was a collective "we." You know it. Just stop. This is getting creepy. All “we”s are collective we’s. And all of them include the speaker. If you are not included in the group, the word you’re looking for is “you”. Not “we”. But if you say “you” it comes across as preachy and dislikeable. So you try to soften it with “we”. Let me pretend like I’m one of this crew. If you’re going to lecture us then fucking lecture us. Spare me the “I’m your pal” facade. I am starting to think you have some sort of disorder. I really don’t think you have any idea how dishonest you are.

MFS62 Oct 26 2018 08:24 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Let's get back to the GM search please, and take that stuff to the red light forum. Frayed Knot wrote: Don't you think that agents do their share scouting, evaluating, and analyzing players? Probably. But there have been no stories about whether or not he is one of the agents who do that, or to what extent, or if he is good at one or more of them. Not even a hint. You'd think if he were, we would have been told about it (or it would have been "leaked") in an effort of trying to sell the decision to the fans. All we've been told is that he is a good negotiator. I want to have confidence that the next GM will lead the organization to greatness. Its the absence of information about any other skills he possesses that troubles me. Later

Frayed Knot Oct 26 2018 08:36 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

ALL agents either need to scout/analyze and evaluate players or need to have that done for them. You know you else does that? ... GMs! GMs aren't out scouting players unless and until they've been recommended up the chain to them and it's time to make the final sign or trade judgement. Agents operate the same way or else they'd be really bad agents and not the head of the entire baseball division of a representative corporation.

Frayed Knot Oct 26 2018 08:50 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

More Sherman since he's been totally on this topic from the beginning. Van Wagenen is bright and energetic. Those who know him say he has a strong cooperative spirit and will recognize what he does not know and listen to experts. He was a college player at Stanford. He has extensive relationships with all 30 teams. Bloom is just 35 and has worked for the small-market Rays but has worked his way up through an MLB organization and is well-regarded by other executives in the sport. Van Wagenen is the bigger gamble. But these owners have surprised us with this process. Cardinals executive Gary Larocque was initially viewed as the favorite, then Brewers official Doug Melvin. It turns out Fred Wilpon was not wedded to older and scouty. From a hardly textbook job search, the Mets have wound up outside the box.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 26 2018 09:22 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

I work in restaurant kitchens. If we have an ace server or well-regarded sommelier who seems to have a gift for flavor and a talent for cooking, he/she might be given a shot on the line, walking before he can run. He/she's NOT getting made a sous chef, much less exec chef, in charge of the entire back-of-house operation, even if he/she is a precocious learner, and is universally well regarded, and has made their way to the top of the heap in their neck of the restaurant's org chart. There are things he/she must learn-- or prove he/she knows-- firsthand before the mantle of leadership is entrusted to him/her. That's just how it's done in a professional organization. I mean, it's great that we've got a guy with the tools to do the job. But the ashheap of can't-miss-prospects-who-missed is full of toolsy guys' figurative remains, innit? I mean, just because you have a talented guy who wants to make a career left turn interested in your job-- however translatable his skill set may be-- doesn't mean he merits the top job in your organization, does it? (At least not over a younger, similarly-talented guy who's, y'know, DONE the job.)

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 26 2018 09:40 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Maybe what's going on here is that Fred gets his way by having Omar be the scoutmaster and Brodie the dealmaker.

Centerfield Oct 26 2018 09:49 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Who does the analytics?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr Oct 26 2018 09:59 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

"I'm open to analytics."

John Cougar Lunchbucket Oct 26 2018 10:01 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

interns, duh

Frayed Knot Oct 26 2018 10:23 PM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Centerfield wrote: Who does the analytics? The analytics department. Same as with every club. It's not like even the so called "Analytic GMs" are the ones crunching the numbers. The difference is how receptive the man in charge is (or is not) to following such data. How receptive is BVW going to be to analytics? ... I have no idea, but I think it's safe to say he's certainly familiar with them.

MFS62 Oct 27 2018 05:09 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Frayed Knot wrote: ALL agents either need to scout/analyze and evaluate players or need to have that done for them. You know you else does that? ... GMs! GMs aren't out scouting players unless and until they've been recommended up the chain to them and it's time to make the final sign or trade judgement. Agents operate the same way or else they'd be really bad agents and not the head of the entire baseball division of a representative corporation. Agreed. You convinced me. But I still must ask, "to what end"? To an agent, those analytics and that skill set are used in support of negotiating the best possible contract for an individual player. You'd still have to convince me how that relates to building a balanced roster. I liken it to someone who has a PhD in Microbiology. They can use what they have learned to discover the cure for a disease or they can teach. Same skill set, two different objectives. Will he be successful? I hope so. Do I think he will be? I'm not sure. Let me put it this way: I am excited by the prospect of a team making such an outside-the-box hire. But as a Mets fan, I'd prefer to have Bloom, because I wouldn't want my team to be an experiment. Later

Benjamin Grimm Oct 27 2018 05:14 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

But is building a balanced roster all that tricky? It's not hard to identify that you need, for example, a catcher, or a right-handed bat, or a left-handed reliever. Knowing what you need is easy, finding the right player and determining if he's worth whatever it will cost (in players or money) is where the challenge lies.

smg58 Oct 27 2018 06:14 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

MFS62 wrote: Let me put it this way: I am excited by the prospect of a team making such an outside-the-box hire. But as a Mets fan, I'd prefer to have Bloom, because I wouldn't want my team to be an experiment. You summed up my feelings better than I could.

Centerfield Oct 27 2018 06:49 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

Serious question. Do agents really scout and analyze? Teams have to do it because they have limited resources and limited spots. An agent has no limit to how many clients they can have. Do they really need to discern which of the five shortstop prospects to take? Or do they market to all five? And yes I understand that even with a whole department like BVW ran there are limited hours, but do you prioritize the time on who you think is the best? Or who you think is the most receptive to a relationship?

Mex17 Oct 27 2018 07:10 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote: I work in restaurant kitchens. If we have an ace server or well-regarded sommelier who seems to have a gift for flavor and a talent for cooking, he/she might be given a shot on the line, walking before he can run. He/she's NOT getting made a sous chef, much less exec chef, in charge of the entire back-of-house operation, even if he/she is a precocious learner, and is universally well regarded, and has made their way to the top of the heap in their neck of the restaurant's org chart. There are things he/she must learn-- or prove he/she knows-- firsthand before the mantle of leadership is entrusted to him/her. That's just how it's done in a professional organization. I mean, it's great that we've got a guy with the tools to do the job. But the ashheap of can't-miss-prospects-who-missed is full of toolsy guys' figurative remains, innit? I mean, just because you have a talented guy who wants to make a career left turn interested in your job-- however translatable his skill set may be-- doesn't mean he merits the top job in your organization, does it? (At least not over a younger, similarly-talented guy who's, y'know, DONE the job.) I think that you are underestimating what "Co-head of the baseball division at CAA Sports" means. For once, I might be in alignment with Frayed Knot here.

Centerfield Oct 27 2018 07:15 AM Re: Who's gonna be the General Manager?

As for why this move is disappointing, this GM search comes down to the same basic principle as everything else discussed on this, or any other, fan board. Does this move maximize my chances for success? We know that nothing guarantees success. In this post season, we saw a number of teams that did everything right. Many won 100+ games, and in the end, only one team gets to lift the trophy. But those teams will continue to make all the right moves and continue to try to put themselves in a situation, where if they get a few bounces, they take home the prize. Why do I focus so much on budget? Because it's beyond dispute that resources maximize a team's chances at success. Choosing not to spend is foolish. Being unable to spend is incompetent, and warrants replacement. Why do we focus on analytics? Because this is just a fancy way of saying "information". The more information you have, the better your chances of making the right decision. Should we bring in Jay Bruce? Or give Nimmo more starts? The analytics guys were on this before Nimmo broke out this year. I don't care so much about the size of the analytics department, though if Sandy Alderson says he needs more guys, get him more fucking guys. But do we listen to them? Do we utilize them? Like budget, the effectiveness of using analytics is proven. So why the fuck would we not take this advantage? And so why is this GM decision disappointing? Because it does not appear that the Wilpons made the choice that best maximizes our chances for success. We are looking for a GM that can build a winning team on (presumably) a limited budget. A guy who can utilize the modern data and turn that into wins on the field. If that is our goal, there was one candidate that was head and shoulders above the others. And that guy was ready to take our job, but we deliberately decided to go in a different direction. I mean, Melvin was clearly the wrong guy. Everyone could see that. But Brodie? I don't know. He might be. But why would we take that risk? Why wouldn't we take the guy who just finished doing in Tampa exactly what we want him to do here? Now, it's possible that the Wilpons are privy to information we don't have. That they are geniuses with an ace up their sleeve, and someday we'll look back and be like, wow, those Wilpons are fucking savvy. But do you really think so? Last year, their "outside the box" move was Mickey Calloway. "We're hiring a pitching coach for a manager! Our new guy is so smart, so smart, have you met our smart new manager?" How did that work out? It wasn't the disaster it appeared to be early in the season, but at best, Mickey Calloway was just ok. If he's back this year, whatever. If he's not, I don't really care. But we didn't really have great options last season. Alex Cora preferred another job, and Brad Ausmus wasn't interested. So we did what we could. This year, we have a star GM prospect sitting at our table. And we go with an agent? Look, if you make that move, you better fucking know what you're doing. And I don't believe the Wilpons have earned any benefit of the doubt.