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Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 26 2018 09:02 AM
Re: Winter '18-'19 Transactions - non-NYM version

Ken Rosenthal reporting that the Mariners are trying to unload Robinson Cano, and that the Mets are one of the teams that they've contacted.

This seems so unlikely to happen that it's not worth creating a "Let's Talk About Robinson Cano" thread.

Cano is 36 and there's $120 million remaining on his contract.

seawolf17
Nov 26 2018 09:21 AM
Re: Winter '18-'19 Transactions - non-NYM version

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Cano is 36 and there's $120 million remaining on his contract.

Even if they take *all* our big contracts:

Vargas: $8M
Bruce: $29M
Frazier: $9M
Lagares: $18.5M
Swarzak: $8M

Nope.

Ashie62
Nov 26 2018 11:11 AM
Re: Winter '18-'19 Transactions - non-NYM version

What if you added Cespedes to that list?

Nope

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 26 2018 11:33 AM
Re: Winter '18-'19 Transactions - non-NYM version

Bad contract... but...

[Puts on Contrarian Hat; adjusts band]

... still a good player. Like, he has been good for 3-3.5 WAR in down years while in Seattle. (The still-above-average D gives him a decent floor.) That said, I wouldn't sign the guy for 5/100 at the moment-- the operative phrase in the previous sentence may be "has been"-- so the Mets "signing" him for 5/120 without significant salary relief included is... unlikely. But he's been remarkably consistent in most aspects of his game, he'd be a weapon as long as he remained healthy, he's in reasonable shape for his age, he'd allow us to superflex Jeff McNeil (or move him to third?), and, well... there are worse financial bets to make. We have a few in our dugout and bullpen and training room.

[Removes Contrarian Hat; examines forehead welt in mirror; frowns]

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 26 2018 11:36 AM
Re: Winter '18-'19 Transactions - non-NYM version

Well, I guess if enough dollars come back from Seattle, it's worth considering, but it really doesn't seem like a likely scenario.

seawolf17
Nov 27 2018 07:47 AM
Re: Winter '18-'19 Transactions - non-NYM version

Hmm.

Wikipedia wrote:
In December 2013, Van Wagenen negotiated a $240 million, 10-year contract for Robinson Canó with the Seattle Mariners.

bmfc1
Nov 27 2018 08:27 AM

A few articles today say that the Mets are being "aggressive" on Robinson Cano talks. SEA is selling and BVW might be buying.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 27 2018 08:29 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Huh! Maybe I shouldn't have been so dismissive of the idea in the other thread.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 27 2018 08:35 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Andy Martino wrote:
As for the Mets, the idea is to capitalize on Seattle's own aggressive posture in trying to unload Cano. At 36 years old, owed $120 million over the next five seasons, and coming off a PED suspension, Cano carries significant baggage. But he remains a productive hitter.

Could the Mets use this deal to rid themselves of Jay Bruce's contract, and acquire young closer Edwin Diaz? How much would the Mariners pay of Cano's contract?

These huge unknowns mean that an actual deal is probably a longshot. But the Mets - and Yanks - are staying involved just in case.

MFS62
Nov 27 2018 08:38 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Andy Martino wrote:
But the Mets - and Yanks - are staying involved just in case.

Who cares if he's 36?
He could DH and hit home runs 'till he's 50 in that bandbox in the Bronx. I could see him going there.

Later

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 27 2018 09:00 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

I got real mixed feelings on this.

Don't wanna see McNeil uprooted, unless he winds up at 3rd base, and Cano, while good, just seems like a baggage-heavy vet with more potential to wind up regrettable. But it looks like Bruce is the dude they're trying to unload with this, and not stinky Todd Frazier. The whole thing seems weird.

That said I'll bet we can trick Seattle into paying moost of the freight on the Cano thing and Fred loves a bargain.

Also also, I'll bet Omar loves Cano. Omar is our baseball guy! Dammit

smg58
Nov 27 2018 09:42 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

to paraphrase Queen: No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 27 2018 11:33 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

How Mets’ slim Robinson Cano possibility could become reality

The Mets are hoping to take advantage of the rebuilding Mariners’ desperation to deal away Cano. SNY reports that they would include Jay Bruce, who makes $26 million over the next two seasons, in a deal and hope the Mariners would include stud closer Edwin Diaz.


Bruce for Cano and Diaz plus cash? Is that what they're saying?

bmfc1
Nov 27 2018 11:40 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Martino:

Per major league sources, here are the basic parameters of what the teams are discussing: Cano would go to the Mets, and Seattle would pay approximately $10 million annually of the $120 million owed to Cano over the next five years. That would take Cano's annual salary down to about $14 million.

The Mets are also trying to get Seattle to take on a burdensome contract like Jay Bruce's, and obtain a player like Edwin Diaz or Mitch Haniger.


https://www.sny.tv/mets/news/sources-wi ... /301154492

Lefty Specialist
Nov 27 2018 12:29 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Boy, they'd have to eat most of that contract AND take Bruce off our hands. And even then I'd be hesitant.

smg58
Nov 27 2018 12:52 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

The Mariners have already made it clear that they have no intentions of trading Diaz or Hanigan, and I can't fathom they would change their minds just to get rid of Cano. Nor would I take Cano just to get rid of Bruce (or even Cespedes). There is a whole lot of "nothing adds up" here.

On the other hand, it's also worth pointing out that any deal involving Edwin Diaz and Robinson Cano is 99% about Edwin Diaz.

Frayed Knot
Nov 27 2018 12:58 PM
Re: Winter '18-'19 Transactions - non-NYM version

seawolf17 wrote:
Hmm.

Wikipedia wrote:
In December 2013, Van Wagenen negotiated a $240 million, 10-year contract for Robinson Canó with the Seattle Mariners.


So, basically, BVW is telling Seattle, 'Hey, if we make this trade then you're gonna have to eat most of the money here cuz I'm sure not going to take on the back years of that idiot deal'

Zvon
Nov 27 2018 01:55 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

If we could get Diaz in there somehow, I like. But otherwise no thank you.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 27 2018 02:12 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Even if the M's sent $10M per year, would anyone here want Cano around for essentially a 5-year deal for ~$14M per season for his age 36-40 seasons? I sure as hell don't. They'd have to start with Haniger and Diaz to make me not hang up on em.

Centerfield
Nov 27 2018 02:19 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

If they take Bruce, then it kinda becomes a 3 year deal for 15 mil each.

Right? Or is my math off?

metsmarathon
Nov 27 2018 02:22 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

i'm intrigued by the possibility of the WATP that mlb.com just sent out...

cano | edwin diaz | mallex smith
for
andres giminez | justin dunn | dom smith | jay bruce

i'm not sure if i'm intrigued enough to pull the trigger on it, but i like that a heck of a lot more than trading noah.


OE: based on steamer projections from fangraphs, that package above would play out to about a 6-win increase for the metsies for '19

Centerfield
Nov 27 2018 02:33 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I hate the idea of trading Noah. So yeah, this is better.

If Seattle kicks in 10 million per year, you are basically signing Cano to a 5 year, $70 contract. To take this on would be foolish.

So they agree to take Bruce. Now it's like signing Cano to a 5 year, $44 million contract. (or a 3 year, or a 4 year, deal, whatever. Either way you owe him $44 million). Unless we think we can unload Jay Bruce somewhere else. Not sure if this is true or not, but anyway, let's assume that no one else wants Bruce.

The answer is still no. At best, you get maybe one or two productive years from Cano. And position-wise, and left-handedwise, he's not a great fit.

But then they throw in Edwin Diaz. A guy who I never heard of, but I guess would slot in as our closer. This means we save 3 years, $33 million on our closer (best guess at what that might cost us in the open market). So now, this deal starts to make sense.

But then you also give them Gimenez, Smith and Dunn? No way.

Am I missing something?

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 27 2018 02:43 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

You're overlooking Mallex Smith also coming to the Mets.

40 steals and 10 triples in 2018 with Tampa. Would add some speed to a slow-footed team.

I don't know if that's enough to make this a good deal, but you asked what you were missing.

Also: Smith is 25 years old, four years away from free agency. .296/.367/.406 in 141 games in 2018.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 27 2018 02:57 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

The Mets have only 2 guaranteed contracts (Bruce and Yoenis) on the books for 2019 and zero for 2020. This is kind of amazing and can give them a ton of flexibility going forward. I don't know why they'd want to take on that Cano albatross just to get rid of Bruce and get an (elite) closer. Just spend that money on 2 second tier type guys (Familia, Andrew Miller?) and try to dump Bruce. Mets R Dumb.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 27 2018 03:08 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I'm open minded but suspicious.

Frayed Knot
Nov 27 2018 03:22 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Checking in on Edwin Diaz here since us east coasters rarely ever see west coast closers due to the fact that they generally don't even start their stretching routines until after midnight EDT:
- native of Puerto Rico, was drafted in the 3rd round by Seattle in 2012
- will turn 25 during spring training '19
- has two-plus years ML service time but remains short of arbitration status until next season
- was 5th in AL RoY in 2016; 49 appearances all in relief, 23 games finished, 18 saves. So they threw him into the fire fairly quickly as he made his ML debut in June that year, was
assigned to 7th & 8th inning spots immediately, and was closing by early August. Kimbrel started closing that quickly, but not a lot of others that I can think of (K-Rod).
- 1st full season ('17) 66 games, 52 GF, 34 saves, 3.27 ERA, 1.15 WHIP
- 2018: 73 G/73.1 IP; 65 GF which led the league as did his 57 saves; 41 Hits, 1.96 ERA, 0.79 WHIP. 5.0 H/9, 0.6 HR/9, 2.1 BB/9, 15.2 K/9. So that's >3 Ks for every hit.
He was an All Star, 8th in CY, 18th in MVP


One interesting note on the 2018 Mariners, who were in the chase for a long while but faded to 3rd in the AL West: they won 89 games but were out-scored by 34 runs overall which
their pythag projection puts them at just 77 wins. Sometimes a good bullpen can help out that kind of result although a +12 win differential is pretty radical. So maybe GM Jerry DiPoto
knows 2018 was a bit of fool's gold and is looking to cash out.

So, if some sort of this deal goes through, you've got your theoretical closer for the next four years, the first of them quite cheap, from ages 25 thru 28

smg58
Nov 27 2018 03:28 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

You'd be giving up two of your four best prospects and taking on Cano. It would be win now, or else. I could understand (though not necessarily agree with) re-tooling to try to win in the early 2020s, but this deal would punt the early 2020s.

Diaz might be the best reliever in baseball right now and I like Mallex Smith, but that's still not that big of a return for the cost. And that's before you factor in the potential for Cano to disappear for a full season and embarrass the team in the process. Or that it actually makes the lineup even more left-handed than it already is.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 27 2018 03:37 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Well, if Cano replaces Bruce it doesn't make the lineup more lefthanded, except if you figure that Cano would start a lot more games than Bruce would.

smg58
Nov 27 2018 03:40 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Smith is left-handed, and Cano would either play first ahead of Alonso or third ahead of Frazier (or play second while McNeil slides over). That's five lefties out of eight.

Zvon
Nov 27 2018 08:43 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
You're overlooking Mallex Smith also coming to the Mets.

40 steals and 10 triples in 2018 with Tampa. Would add some speed to a slow-footed team.

I don't know if that's enough to make this a good deal, but you asked what you were missing.

Also: Smith is 25 years old, four years away from free agency. .296/.367/.406 in 141 games in 2018.


I like what Smith would bring.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 28 2018 12:04 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 28 2018 07:02 AM

I like Smith, I think Cano can be useful for at least 2-3 years, and I like the prospect of getting rid of Bruce. Losing Gimenez (who strikes me as a Ruben Tejada-at-his-best guy), Dunn (whose control is
... not ideal), and D-Smith (bleh) hurts from a best-prospects-in-the-system standpoint... but it's not a crazy amount of upside we're losing here.

I'm wary of the salary-flexibility thing, but if they're including guys like these, I think it'd be silly to poo-poo a trade like this. (Especially since a substantial FA addition for a new offensive weapon seems... unlikely, at best.)

Mex17
Nov 28 2018 02:08 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Here are my questions. .

-After the first two years basically being a financial wash with the money coming from Seattle and Bruce going the other way, are you good with $42 million over three years going to a guy who will be in his age 38, 39, and 40 seasons? Can you move a guy like that to an AL team at that point and take on some of that money (say something in between $12-$22 million)?
-Can Cano transition to third after maybe a year?
-Are you OK taking a pretty significant hit to a not great as it is farm system in order to get two guys (Diaz and Mallex) who are proven performers in the bigs who each have four seasons of team control left? (That's actually an easy one for me at this team's juncture.)
-Would this free up Nimmo as trade bait, perhaps to Cleveland for Yan Gomes? Do you want to do that? Do you move Conforto instead? Or keep both? How would you handle the outfield logjam if you eventually have Conforto/Nimmo/Mallex/healthy Cespedes?
-Can you survive the first 2-3 months of the season assuming Cespedes will miss at least that much time and Alonso will need AAA time? Are you too lefthanded? What if Cespedes does not come back?
-What do you do with McNeil? If the answer is "third base", then what do you do with Frazier? Is McNeil's punch and judy bat/OBP worth losing Frazier's defense at the hot corner?

Mex17
Nov 28 2018 04:31 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Let's assume this trade goes through, Alonso makes the team out of spring training, and they do not trade Nimmo for a catcher. I see some platooning in this scenario at the beginning of the year (pre-Cespedes).

-vs. RHP
Smith-cf
Nimmo-rf
Conforto-lf
Cano-2b
Alonso-1b
d'Arnaud/Plawecki-c
pitcher
Rosario-ss
McNeil-3b

-vs LHP
Nimmo-rf
Conforto-lf
Cano-2b
Frazier-3b
Alonso-1b
Lagares-cf
d'Arnaud/Plawecki-c
pitcher
Rosario-ss

Then, when Cespedes comes back, then you trade Nimmo for Gomes?

Or, you just sign Grandal, thereby adding another semi-reliable righthanded bat, and deal with the outfield logjam some other way.

Zvon
Nov 28 2018 04:45 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Nimmo is higher on my MVP list than Cespedes. Of course, not a 100% Yo, but I don't think we'll ever see that again.

Really hope he proves me wrong.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 28 2018 04:47 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

You can't really assume that the Indians, if they're looking to trade Gomes, will be willing to wait for Yoenis Cespedes to come off the DL before making a deal. If Nimmo-for-Gomes is an option now, that doesn't mean it will still be an option next summer.

Zvon
Nov 28 2018 04:51 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
You can't really assume that the Indians, if they're looking to trade Gomes, will be willing to wait for Yoenis Cespedes to come off the DL before making a deal. If Nimmo-for-Gomes is an option now, that doesn't mean it will still be an option next summer.


I feel somewhat pacified.

Mex17
Nov 28 2018 05:21 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Zvon wrote:
Nimmo is higher on my MVP list than Cespedes. Of course, not a 100% Yo, but I don't think we'll ever see that again.


What about a Conforto/Cespedes platoon at LF?

LF-Conforto/Cespedes
CF-Smith/Lagares
RF-Nimmo

This is starting to look like the '69 team.

Frayed Knot
Nov 28 2018 05:44 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

You don't want Cespedes OR Conforto to be platoon players - and certainly not in one with each other!!

41Forever
Nov 28 2018 05:55 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

A 36-year-old already busted once for PEDs with a horrible contract playing at a position currently filled by a young player who shined in his first half season? Plus all the MFY taint?

Mex17
Nov 28 2018 06:09 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Frayed Knot wrote:
You don't want Cespedes OR Conforto to be platoon players - and certainly not in one with each other!!


OK, who do you want riding the bench full time on a team that has Conforto, Cespedes, Mallex, and Nimmo?

Not wanting to do this deal at all because of the outfield logjam it would create is a perfectly acceptable answer as well.

Also, are you that confident that Cespedes can be even play full time going forward once he gets back?

Would you keep a healthy Cespedes on the bench in favor of Conforto against a tough lefty just to avoid a platoon?

Edgy MD
Nov 28 2018 06:30 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Frayed Knot wrote:
You don't want Cespedes OR Conforto to be platoon players - and certainly not in one with each other!!

And yet, that's still more appealing than giving 2/3 of the centerfield starts to Dominic Smith.

Oh, Mallex. Never mind.

Frayed Knot
Nov 28 2018 06:35 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Well, the problem at the root of all this is not having a true CF'er. That's a problem that needs to be solved by I don't solve it by making the two best hitters on the team into part-time players.

So I certainly don't add Mallex Smith with the intention of making him a full-time player if the net result is going to be that each one of his ABs takes one away from either Conforto and/or (second-half)
Cespedes. That's a downgrade rather than a solution even if it turns out that Smith one good (semi-full time 2018) season really does show who he's going to be from here on out.
Plus I'm not even sure how good a defensive CF he is. We tend to make assumptions that slappy/speedy guys make good CF gloves but that's not always the case and Smith has always split his time between
CF and a corner spot. Maybe that was due to other personnel on the teams he was on, or maybe it's because he's merely OK there which, if so, isn't really an upgrade from what Nimmo & Conforto can do.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 28 2018 07:00 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 28 2018 03:34 PM

Smith, by most measures, is an average/above-average CF glove. But he doesn't have to be better than Nimmo to be an improvement, even-- he and Nimmo just have to be better than Nimmo/Bruce, right?

41Forever wrote:
A 36-year-old already busted once for PEDs with a horrible contract playing at a position currently filled by a young player who shined in his first half season? Plus all the MFY taint?


2.9 fWAR in 80 games last year. 18 or so fWAR over the last four years, with no discernible downward trend. SSS alert, but .317/.363/.497 in 41 G post-suspension. AND he still plays a good second. He's been better in "aged" down years than Bruce has been at his best. MFY taint stinks. But he's kindasorta future HOF-y. If Bruce and Ces ARE off the books, having Cano on won't cripple the team's financial flexibility. (It shouldn't, anyway.)

Also, you're trading a couple of toolsy prospects, maybe, for developed, very good major leaguers that fill two persistent roster holes on the cheap. If you're not going to sign a Machado or Donaldson, this is how you upgrade a lineup while retooling.

Y'know? Forget devil's advocacy. I'm on board with this for real, I think.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 28 2018 07:07 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Also, proposed: if Cano DOES have something left for 2-3 years, the MFY "taint" can be a borderline asset. Can you imagine a playoff contender led by a resurgent Cano, right in the MFYs' regressing faces? Sterling having to call Cano 2-HR games during Subway Series? It'd be like Darryl in reverse.

Edgy MD
Nov 28 2018 07:16 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Just saying the name Mallex Smith improves my virility by about 34%.

So there's that.

41Forever
Nov 28 2018 08:01 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
Smith, by most measures, is an average/above-average CF glove. But he doesn't have to be better than Nimmo to be an improvement, even-- he and Nimmo just have to be better than Nimmo/Bruce, right?

41Forever wrote:
A 36-year-old already busted once for PEDs with a horrible contract playing at a position currently filled by a young player who shined in his first half season? Plus all the MFY taint?


2.9 fWAR in 80 games last year. 18 or so fWAR over the last four years, with moo discernible downward trend. SSS alert, but .317/.363/.497 in 41 G post-suspension. AND he still plays a good second. He's been better in "aged" down years than Bruce has been at his best. MFY taint stinks. But he's kindasorta future HOF-y. If Bruce and Ces ARE off the books, having Cano on won't cripple the team's financial flexibility. (It shouldn't, anyway.)

Also, you're trading a couple of toolsy prospects, maybe, for developed, very good major leaguers that fill two persistent roster holes on the cheap. If you're not going to sign a Machado or Donaldson, this is how you upgrade a lineup while retooling.

Y'know? Forget devil's advocacy. I'm on board with this for real, I think.


I just have Alomar/Baerga flashbacks.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 28 2018 08:07 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Carlos Baerga was only 28 when the Mets got him. That's not at all comparable to Cano. Roberto Alomar was 34, which is a lot closer.

seawolf17
Nov 28 2018 09:11 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

I'm trying to talk myself into this, because I feel like it's the kind of thing that might legitimately happen.

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 28 2018 09:17 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

MFY taint? What the fuck is that? Is that the latest excuse for the Wilpons to cover that they'd be too cheap to ever go in on Babe Ruth or Lou Gehrig or Mickey Mantle if those players were playing today and hitting free agency?

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 28 2018 09:21 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Any notion of "MFY taint" is coming from the fans, not the Wilpons.

We came to love Curtis Granderson, even though he has a Yankee past. We'd get over it with anyone else too, if they performed well.

Zvon
Nov 28 2018 09:22 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Mex17 wrote:
Nimmo is higher on my MVP list than Cespedes. Of course, not a 100% Yo, but I don't think we'll ever see that again.


What about a Conforto/Cespedes platoon at LF?

LF-Conforto/Cespedes
CF-Smith/Lagares
RF-Nimmo

This is starting to look like the '69 team.


You don't want Cespedes OR Conforto to be platoon players - and certainly not in one with each other!!


I agree with FK, especially in regards to Conforto.

I kinda like:
LF: Conforto
CF: Nimmo
RF: Yo @90 to 100%

bmfc1
Nov 28 2018 09:36 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

FYI: the thread title was a callback to this very old commercial
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH3Ya2rpsdY

but there's also this song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRge0RCBWSk

Frayed Knot
Nov 28 2018 09:38 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

I remember the commercial, not the song.

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 28 2018 09:50 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Any notion of "MFY taint" is coming from the fans, not the Wilpons....


Oh, that much I knew.

Centerfield
Nov 28 2018 10:06 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

After consideration again last night, I decided I'm against this deal.

When it comes down to it, I don't have much faith that Cano will continue to be productive. I keep reading that he's still a good hitter, etc. Well, he was a good hitter in 2018. We don't know what he will be in 2019, except that we know he's already 36, and he'll either be off the 'roids, or suspended. I don't think that this bodes well for him next year, and certainly not in the ensuing years. It kinda reminds me of the Bobby Bonilla or Mo Vaughn situation, where we unload a bad contract by taking on a worse one, partially because we feel like the player still has something left. I don't want to rely on this.

Diaz is certainly intriguing, but if they ask for prospects in addition to taking on Cano, then I tell them to forget it.

More than anything else, I feel like if BVW makes this trade, he will feel justified that he's upgraded the offense, and not do anything else. That's not the move I'm looking for.

Get me a power bat in his prime. Not an expensive 36 year old on his downside.

Centerfield
Nov 28 2018 10:09 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

For perspective, some thought taking a flyer on 32 year old Josh Donaldson on a 1 year deal was too much risk.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 28 2018 11:13 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Yeah, I'm pretty solidly against the idea of this proposed trade. I think the M's willingness to include Diaz shows how desperate they are to get out from underneath Cano and also how eminently replaceable a high-strikeout, hard-throwing, right-handed closer can be in 2018, talented as he may be. And Mallex Smith sounds to me like he's maybe prime Dee Gordon with less steals. No thanks, man. Main point is that I have little faith that post-PED, 36-year old Cano will continue to be highly productive this year, let alone for 5.

Edgy MD
Nov 28 2018 11:20 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Van Wagenen's Wikipedia page says that he negotiated that 10-year Cano contract. I thought that was Jay-Z's agency. Did Brodie used to work for them?

If he indeed negotiated it, it'd seemingly be a case of him buying his own bullshit to take over the back end of that deal after his client has been exposed as a PED cheat.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 28 2018 03:53 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

And Mallex Smith sounds to me like he's maybe prime Dee Gordon with less steals.


Mallex has a career . 346 OBP and .384 SLG, and both numbers are trending upward. Gordon has only topped either number twice in his career. On this matter, your hearing is flawed.

Also, re: PED weirdness... you have more to fear from aging. Braun, Marte, Cruz-- most good PED-suspended hitters have remained good hitters, post-PED suspension.

Cano. As OUR 90s-Yankees Darryl. IMAGINE THE FLOSSIBILITIES

Mex17
Nov 28 2018 05:36 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Frayed Knot wrote:
Well, the problem at the root of all this is not having a true CF'er. That's a problem that needs to be solved by I don't solve it by making the two best hitters on the team into part-time players.

So I certainly don't add Mallex Smith with the intention of making him a full-time player if the net result is going to be that each one of his ABs takes one away from either Conforto and/or (second-half)
Cespedes. That's a downgrade rather than a solution even if it turns out that Smith one good (semi-full time 2018) season really does show who he's going to be from here on out.
Plus I'm not even sure how good a defensive CF he is. We tend to make assumptions that slappy/speedy guys make good CF gloves but that's not always the case and Smith has always split his time between
CF and a corner spot. Maybe that was due to other personnel on the teams he was on, or maybe it's because he's merely OK there which, if so, isn't really an upgrade from what Nimmo & Conforto can do.


Try this out for size.

Assuming the O'Dowd version of the trade goes though, a healthy Cespedes, a promoted Alonso, and a Grandal signing. . .

-vs. RHP
Smith-cf
Nimmo-rf
Conforto-lf
Cano-2b
Grandal-c
Alonso-1b
pitcher
McNeil-3b
Rosario-ss

-vs. LHP
Nimmo-rf
Conforto-cf
Cespedes-lf
Cano-2b
Frazier-3b
Grandal-c
Alonso-1b
pitcher
Rosario-ss

With this, you keep Conforto and Nimmo in the lineup everyday. You also keep Cespedes from being overused coming off injury and place him in the best position to succeed. And you get a healthy dose of what Mallex Smith can bring to the table.

You also limit McNeil's exposure and keep Frazier involved.

It's almost like two different teams in one. You get more of a situational/speed/smallball team against rightys and more pop against leftys.

Mex17
Nov 28 2018 05:37 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Just for kicks, Mallex vs. Nimmo side by side.

https://www.fantasypros.com/mlb/compare ... -nimmo.php

Frayed Knot
Nov 28 2018 07:50 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Just to be clear here, your version of keeping a "healthy Cespedes from being overused", and of "keeping Frazier involved" for that matter, has both of them sitting out some 70-80% of the time.
I don't think that's gonna fly.

Mex17
Nov 29 2018 04:10 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Frayed Knot wrote:
Just to be clear here, your version of keeping a "healthy Cespedes from being overused", and of "keeping Frazier involved" for that matter, has both of them sitting out some 70-80% of the time.
I don't think that's gonna fly.


That's the rub. Everyone keeps saying that they need another "big bat" in the lineup, preferably a righthanded one. Where do you put that bat? The only places that I can think of are third base, second base, and the outfield. Everyone is enamored with McNeil and no one wants to sit Nimmo or Conforto. There is a still a committment to Frazier and you have to keep a spot open for Cespedes even though no one has any idea when he is coming back or what he will be when he comes back. No one really wants to trade Syndergaard and this Mariners trade (which looks like BVW is pursuing) addresses none of the above concerns.

What do you do?

HahnSolo
Nov 29 2018 10:12 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Jeff Passan says significant momentum to these talks, meanwhile two Mets prospects names surface via Rosenthal (at least I hadn't heard their names in this deal before--we'd really consider dealing Kelenic in this trade?).

[tweet:2c2eji4c]https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1068183711517220864[/tweet:2c2eji4c]

I don't know; an aging "name" player and a closer. This move has Omar's fingerprints all over it.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 29 2018 10:19 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

You said it (so did I in a different thread).

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 10:25 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

HahnSolo wrote:
Jeff Passan says significant momentum to these talks, meanwhile two Mets prospects names surface via Rosenthal (at least I hadn't heard their names in this deal before--we'd really consider dealing Kelenic in this trade?).

[tweet]https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1068183711517220864[/tweet]

I don't know; an aging "name" player and a closer. This move has Omar's fingerprints all over it.


No no no. Are you fucking kidding me?

No.

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 10:27 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
You said it (so did I in a different thread).


Maybe we can get JJ Putz again!

And the Cano contract is really not a big deal. We can spread his payments over a 100 years starting in 2031, and invest that money right now into this fund I know...

HahnSolo
Nov 29 2018 10:29 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

John Cougar Lunchbucket wrote:
You said it (so did I in a different thread).


lol when I typed that I thought "I sound just like lunchbucket"

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 29 2018 10:30 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Kristie Ackert wrote:
The Mets would also have to dip into their core of young players to get a deal of this magnitude done, the industry source said. They would likely have to send back a top prospect like shortstop Andres Gimenez, right-hander Justin Dunn or 2018 Mets top draft pick Jarred Kelenic.

A team source said that the Mets would not include more than one of those players in any deal. It would also likely include a young major leaguer and Seth Lugo has been among those floated, the source said.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 29 2018 10:30 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Jezus H.

metirish
Nov 29 2018 10:31 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Why are the Mets not just getting a closer type in the free agent market ? There are many available.....I fear Cano would come here and just stink

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 10:33 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

I feel like I'm living in some alternate universe.

We are not trading for Cano. Seattle is dumping his contract on us. Eating money, taking on Bruce, and sending us their closer is the consideration for this salary dump.

If we are asked to give up prospects, we hang up. If we're asked to give up prospects and Lugo, and a young major leaguer, whatever the fuck that means, then we hang up in a more adamant manner.

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 10:37 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

They're saying McNeil is being discussed.

OMG. Someone shoot me.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 29 2018 10:43 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Hopefully, "discussed" means that the Mariners are asking, not that the Mets are offering. But I really don't know what to think.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 29 2018 10:46 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Mets emerging as favorites for Robinson Cano, Edwin Diaz

New York Post wrote:
The Mets and Mariners have gained momentum toward a trade that would send Robinson Cano and Edwin Diaz to Flushing, Yahoo Sports reports.

However, The Post’s Joel Sherman reports that the Mets do not feel like they are close to a deal for Cano and Diaz and that the Mariners are still unsure on how to proceed. Seattle and GM Jerry DiPoto have been back and forth on whether to maximize their return for Diaz or to include Cano and the $120 million left on his contract, which would severely diminish the return.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 29 2018 11:17 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

And Mallex Smith sounds to me like he's maybe prime Dee Gordon with less steals.


Mallex has a career . 346 OBP and .384 SLG, and both numbers are trending upward. Gordon has only topped either number twice in his career. On this matter, your hearing is flawed.

Also, re: PED weirdness... you have more to fear from aging. Braun, Marte, Cruz-- most good PED-suspended hitters have remained good hitters, post-PED suspension.

Cano. As OUR 90s-Yankees Darryl. IMAGINE THE FLOSSIBILITIES




I stand corrected. Still want nothing to do with any of the rumored iterations of this turd of a trade.

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 12:06 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I'm realizing that reading about these rumors is a good way to drive myself crazy over potentially nothing.

It worries me that Andy Martino, who has his checks signed by Wilpon, is trying to justify this trade. But other than that I'll just wait and see.

I don't know what Brodie will end up doing, so judgment is reserved on him.

But rumor Brodie is really not my favorite guy.

smg58
Nov 29 2018 12:10 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Centerfield wrote:
They're saying McNeil is being discussed.

OMG. Someone shoot me.


This is what scares me. The Mariners have made a point of getting players back who may already be better than what they're giving up -- and who on the Mets would better fit that description? Especially if either Dee Gordon or Mallex Smith is part of the deal, then second base opens up for them.

Personally, if I were the Mariners, I would offer up Gordon, Cano, and Diaz for Cespedes, McNeil, Lugo, and Dom Smith, while eating $10M of the last three years of the contract. Why Cespedes? Because that might be more attractive to the Mets than Bruce, and because Cespedes will be able to DH sooner than he will be able to play left field.

My fear is that the Mets would accept such an offer.

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 12:27 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Diaz is a fucking relief pitcher. I wouldn't trade him 1 for 1 for Kelenic, or McNeil, or even Dunn.

To take on the Cano contract in addition to giving up someone is just stupid beyond words.

Atlanta is adding players.

Our offseason is sitting on pins and needles hoping we don't get worse.

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 12:29 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

And if this deal goes through, are we going to do a jersey over the suit press conference for Cano?

That might just drive me over the edge.

Lefty Specialist
Nov 29 2018 12:56 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I really, really want to believe they won't do something stupid. Afraid they will, though. Cano could be the next Robbie Alomar.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 29 2018 01:02 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Centerfield wrote:
And if this deal goes through, are we going to do a jersey over the suit press conference for Cano?


Oh, I'm sure they would.

I don't object to getting Cano and Diaz, I just worry about what the Mets will give up to get them. I do fear that it will be too much.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 29 2018 01:05 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Lefty Specialist wrote:
I really, really want to believe they won't do something stupid. Afraid they will, though. Cano could be the next Robbie Alomar.


I think the Alomar deal was a smart move that didn't work out. This one, well, until we know the details it's hard to say.

Tonight's Mets Hot Stove should be interesting.

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 01:11 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Centerfield wrote:
And if this deal goes through, are we going to do a jersey over the suit press conference for Cano?


Oh, I'm sure they would.

I don't object to getting Cano and Diaz, I just worry about what the Mets will give up to get them. I do fear that it will be too much.


That's the thing. The Mets shouldn't give up anything.

Cano is not an asset. He's a liability. A terrible liability. He's a 36 year old player on a huge 5 year deal. Even if they just gave us Cano and Diaz for free, it wouldn't be worth taking.

Diaz is an asset, but not enough to outweigh Cano. It has to be Cano, plus cash, plus Diaz, plus they take Bruce off our hands. And then we make the deal.

The minute they ask for prospects, or McNeil, the conversation should be over.

McNeil had a higher OPS than Cano last year. He's 26 and cheap. Why are we having this discussion?

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 01:12 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Lefty Specialist wrote:
I really, really want to believe they won't do something stupid. Afraid they will, though. Cano could be the next Robbie Alomar.


Alomar is not the floor here.

Cano is Alomar, except older, coming off a steroid suspension, and tied to a 5 year, $120 million contract with a no-trade clause.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 29 2018 01:19 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I wonder if they see Cano as a first baseman? Or if he'd nudge McNeil to third base?

I agree that this whole thing seems nutty. Why is Cano the first player they're targeting? Maybe this is part of some bigger plan; it's really impossible to judge an offseason until all of the dust settles, and we're a long way from that. But for now I'll remain perplexed.

I would likely be willing to trade Bruce for Cano and cash. Diaz makes the deal sweeter for the Mets, so I can see why the Mariners would want a young player to come back to them. And, in theory, I'd be okay with that too. I just worry about who that player (or players) might be.

And is Mallex Smith off the table?

Frayed Knot
Nov 29 2018 01:44 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

HahnSolo wrote:
This move has Omar's fingerprints all over it.


Throw in a few more prospects and it'll have Steve Phillips' fingerprints all over it.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 29 2018 01:50 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I think we're putting all the focus on Cano and underestimating the massive hard-on the Mets seem to have for Edwin Diaz.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 29 2018 02:06 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I'm not often the contrarian here. But... I'll channel my inner Steve Phillips and say--provided Kelenic is nowhere near this deal-- I think I like it. Or, rather, that it would suit our squad's stated purpose, especially if we get Mallex and Diaz.

#TeamCanoTrade

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 29 2018 02:10 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

A Boy Named Seo wrote:
I think we're putting all the focus on Cano and underestimating the massive hard-on the Mets seem to have for Edwin Diaz.


Yes, you're right. I meant to make that point too but forgot.

It might very well be that Cano is the bitter pill that the Mets have to swallow to get Diaz. (And to unload Bruce as well?)

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 02:14 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Frayed Knot wrote:
HahnSolo wrote:
This move has Omar's fingerprints all over it.


Throw in a few more prospects and it'll have Steve Phillips' fingerprints all over it.


As if on cue, Steve Phillips wonders in a tweet why we would trade our prospects for a closer when there are a plethora of them available as free agents.

Um. Ok Steve. I mean, he's right, but. Ya know.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 29 2018 02:20 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Diaz definitely makes the bullpen better. Cano is 10 years older than McNeil and he put up a 2.9 WAR to McNeil's 2.7 in 100 more PAs. There is no reason to assume that Cano will be better than Jeff McNeil for the next 5 years. If the Mets don't trust McNeil and want a brand name closer, go sign fucking Kimbrel (BIG SPLASH!) and get Jed Lowrie or some shit. Talking about Kelenic and Dunn and McNeil is st00pid.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 29 2018 02:25 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I'm hoping that there's room in the same infield for both Cano and McNeil.

Cano could end up playing first (which of course impacts Alonso) or second with McNeil going to third. (Or maybe Cano would play third? That seems less likely.)

Of all the possibilities, I prefer Cano at second, McNeil at third, and Frazier elsewhere.

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 02:35 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

A Boy Named Seo wrote:
Diaz definitely makes the bullpen better. Cano is 10 years older than McNeil and he put up a 2.9 WAR to McNeil's 2.7 in 100 more PAs. There is no reason to assume that Cano will be better than Jeff McNeil for the next 5 years. If the Mets don't trust McNeil and want a brand name closer, go sign fucking Kimbrel (BIG SPLASH!) and get Jed Lowrie or some shit. Talking about Kelenic and Dunn and McNeil is st00pid.


Yes yes yes.

ABNS for GM.

Frayed Knot
Nov 29 2018 02:52 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 29 2018 02:54 PM

Do keep in mind that Diaz will cost the Mets less in salary for the sum of the four years they'd have him under control than will one, maybe one-plus, seasons of Kimbrel (and you'd have to commit to
more than that) - so, if nothing else, that leaves munny available for other purposes. And, yes, you'd have to factor in what Cano will cost, etc. (not going to do any of that now as there are too many
moving parts to this - including the part about whether or not any of this is real). But the larger point is that buying closers on the open market hasn't always proven to be a good, or cost-effective,
way to go so I understand their thought process here.

The details, as they always are, will be the deciding factor as to whether or not this is a good idea.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 29 2018 02:53 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Jon Morosi (MLB.com) wrote:
A trade of Robinson Cano and Edwin Diaz to the #Mets is not imminent, sources say, but is one possible outcome of the talks Jerry Dipoto and Brodie Van Wagenen are pursuing on multiple fronts with uncommon ardor.

Sources: 2B Jeff McNeil in play for #Mariners as well as Kellenic/Dunn in potential Cano/Diaz trade with #Mets. #Phillies also talking to SEA, possibly just for Diaz, as @JoelSherman1 said. NYM names would seem difficult to top, but hard to judge without knowing $, full details.

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 02:59 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Frayed Knot wrote:
Do keep in mind that Diaz will cost the Mets less in salary for the sum of the four years they'd have him under control than will one, maybe one-plus, seasons of Kimbrel (and you'd have to commit to
more than that) - so, if nothing else, that leaves munny available for other purposes. And, yes, you'd have to factor in what Cano will cost, etc. (not going to do any of that now as there are too many
moving parts to this - including the part about whether or not any of this is real). But the larger point is that buying closers on the open market hasn't always proven to be a good, or cost-effective,
way to go so I understand their thought process here.

The details, as they always are, will be the deciding factor as to whether or not this is a good idea.


Right. The prize here is Diaz. Young, controllable closer. And what we'd be willing to give up to get him.

He is unquestionably linked to Cano. So any monetary advantage to Diaz is immediately offset. In fact, money is a net negative, as Cano costs more than any closer would.

So Seattle has to throw in money. Whether or not this is a good deal depends on how much they eat. Another factor is how good you think Cano will be. For me, I don't think he'll be good for very long. He might not be very good even for one year.

So if the deal was Cano and Diaz for nothing, I say no.

Once Seattle starts asking for McNeil or Kelenic, I hang up and move on.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 29 2018 03:04 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Cano turned 36 just last month. The odds really aren't good that he'll be productive in the last year of his contract, which will end right around the time of his 41st birthday.

They may surprise me and make a deal that I'll like, but from what we've heard so far I find I'm hoping that nothing comes of this. Brodie should direct his ardor in another direction.

Rosenthal said the Phillies are interested in Diaz without Cano. That may be one of the angles that the Mets are pursuing as well. Who knows?

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 29 2018 03:28 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Centerfield wrote:
Frayed Knot wrote:
Do keep in mind that Diaz will cost the Mets less in salary for the sum of the four years they'd have him under control than will one, maybe one-plus, seasons of Kimbrel (and you'd have to commit to
more than that) - so, if nothing else, that leaves munny available for other purposes. And, yes, you'd have to factor in what Cano will cost, etc. (not going to do any of that now as there are too many
moving parts to this - including the part about whether or not any of this is real). But the larger point is that buying closers on the open market hasn't always proven to be a good, or cost-effective,
way to go so I understand their thought process here.

The details, as they always are, will be the deciding factor as to whether or not this is a good idea.


Right. The prize here is Diaz. Young, controllable closer. And what we'd be willing to give up to get him.

He is unquestionably linked to Cano. So any monetary advantage to Diaz is immediately offset. In fact, money is a net negative, as Cano costs more than any closer would.

So Seattle has to throw in money. Whether or not this is a good deal depends on how much they eat. Another factor is how good you think Cano will be. For me, I don't think he'll be good for very long. He might not be very good even for one year.

So if the deal was Cano and Diaz for nothing, I say no.

Once Seattle starts asking for McNeil or Kelenic, I hang up and move on.


Cano has 5 years x $24M per left ($120M total). The rumor was the M's send $10M per, let's pretend that's true. It woud drop the total to $70M the Mets would owe Cano for his age 36-40 season. For the record I don't advocate signing Kimbrel at all. But I think the Mets could sign two of Familia, David Robertson, Adam Ottovino, Joe Kelly, Andrew Miller for 3 years each and around that same $70M they would owe to Cano and have a killer bullpen. And they'd get to keep McNeil, Dunn and Kelenic. Get creative from there and trade for a bat. I'm just saying, if I'm gonna be stuck with an albatross, let it be Jay Bruce ($14M x 2 seasons) rather than ~$70M for an old, post-PED Cano.

Mex17
Nov 29 2018 05:07 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I started envisioning Kelenic's Hall of Fame induction ceremony the moment his name was mentioned in all this.

At this point, they had better hope that Alonso is a top ROY candidate because they really need some reliable righthanded pop from somewhere other than Frazier (overrated in my book) and Cespedes (no idea when/if he is coming back or what to expect from him once he does).

Three years of Familia can be had probably for around $30 million. That is just one example that I have memorized from that fangraphs site that listed the projections for the top 50 FAs. Is four years of Diaz control (and possibly four years of Mallex Smith control) better than that if it comes with 5 years, $44 million ($120 - $50 coming from Seattle - $26 of Bruce going to Seattle) for an over-35 Cano? That's an $8.8 million AAV.

smg58
Nov 29 2018 05:27 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

So remember when the Phillies owner said they might even “get a little stupid” with their offers this offseason? It’s time to put your money where your mouth is, buddy.

MFS62
Nov 29 2018 05:30 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I don't want to do any of the versions of this deal I've read.
Keep Noah and spend money. Then, they'll have multiple choices at several positions and can sort them out and keep the best ones. Why weaken yourself just to make a big trade? A fireballing young right-hander for a (probably) washed up infielder from a west coast team? And giving up other young players for others who might not be as good? We've seen that before. The guy we gave up went on to a Hall of Fame career and the infielder we got just got older. This smells of a Nolan Ryan Redux. No thanks.
This would be more crash than splash.

Later

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 05:38 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

smg58 wrote:
So remember when the Phillies owner said they might even “get a little stupid” with their offers this offseason? It’s time to put your money where your mouth is, buddy.


I don't see much home.

No one outstupids the Mets.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 29 2018 05:53 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I started envisioning Kelenic's Hall of Fame induction ceremony the moment his name was mentioned in all this.

At this point, they had better hope that Alonso is a top ROY candidate because they really need some reliable righthanded pop from somewhere other than Frazier (overrated in my book) and Cespedes (no idea when/if he is coming back or what to expect from him once he does).

Three years of Familia can be had probably for around $30 million. That is just one example that I have memorized from that fangraphs site that listed the projections for the top 50 FAs. Is four years of Diaz control (and possibly four years of Mallex Smith control) better than that if it comes with 5 years, $44 million ($120 - $50 coming from Seattle - $26 of Bruce going to Seattle) for an over-35 Cano? That's an $8.8 million AAV.


BBR lists the "Earliest Arb Eligible" date for Diaz as 2020. So if he's a Met in 2019, he'll be playing for the MLB version of peanuts. This is great! If he repeats his 2018 season again (best case scenario!), he will prob earn $6-10M in arbitration anyway (still a good deal for that production). But if he's all the sudden making $6-10M or more per season every year in arbitration, then is he really so inexpensive? BTW - I got this shit here: the arbitration record for a first-time eligible relief pitcher is $6.25M, set way back in 2009 by Jonathan Papelbon. MLBTR sez it would take someone like Edwin Diaz to beat that! What a coinkydink!

TL;DR - Diaz is good. If he keeps being good, he will very soon be expensive, too, like most good players are. Don't take on Cano just to get one guaranteed cheap year out of a very good closer. Dumb.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 29 2018 06:08 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Good closers also have a habit of becoming shit closers.

I'm terrified by now.

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 06:14 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Looks like it might happen tonight. God help us.

I miss Sandy.

Mex17
Nov 29 2018 06:15 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 29 2018 06:20 PM

What if Haniger is in the deal instead of Mallex Smith?

I like Mallex, but I think Haniger would fit more of a need.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/player/stats/_/ ... ch-haniger

Mex17
Nov 29 2018 06:17 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Centerfield wrote:
Looks like it might happen tonight. God help us.


Source?

metirish
Nov 29 2018 06:26 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Mex17 wrote:
Centerfield wrote:
Looks like it might happen tonight. God help us.


Source?



All the usual twats are reporting on Twitter that it's "this" close but likely not announced tonight.... But watch this space as it might

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 29 2018 06:37 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Mex17 wrote:
What if Haniger is in the deal instead of Mallex Smith?

I like Mallex, but I think Haniger would fit more of a need.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/player/stats/_/ ... ch-haniger


Haniger and Diaz definitely changes my opinion. But it also depends what's going the other way.

Edit: I have to say none of the twitter twat stuff has Haniger's name anywhere.

Frayed Knot
Nov 29 2018 06:44 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Just to be clear here: I don't want Cano.
BUTT ... if absorbing Cano and his contract, giving us a bat who can absolutely help the lineup at least in the short run ('19 + '20?), lessens the price needed to get Diaz then it's a line worth exploring.
Yeah, good closers can turn into shit closers but those odds are smaller for a guy with 1/4 the mileage on his arm and at maybe 1/3 the price as compared to buying one on the open market.

The key is to be willing to walk away if the price gets too high. At times the problem in these big deals is that mgmt has seemingly decided before hand that they MUST get a certain player at which
point there's almost no practical limit to what you're willing to offer. Victor Zambrano comes to mind (want Kazmir? ... Sure!!), as does the deal for Kris Benson. One of the great lessons laid out in
'MONEYBALL' was that it's easier to recover from the player you fail to sign than it is to recover from the signing you make at the wrong price. I know this is a trade we're talking about here but the same
principle applies.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 29 2018 07:08 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Seems like all the assholes on twitter are crying in unison Cano + Diaz for Bruce + Swarzak + "prospects".

Mex17
Nov 29 2018 07:16 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

A Boy Named Seo wrote:
Seems like all the assholes on twitter are crying in unison Cano + Diaz for Bruce + Swarzak + "prospects".


5 years, $120M left on Cano - ($50M from Seattle + $26M of Bruce going to Seattle + $8M of Swarzak going to Seattle) = $36 million. That is now a $7.2 million AAV. More palatable.

Now does that mean that you pay more in prospects due to the increased monetary offset or does Swarzak have enough value as a player where you do not have to give up as many prospects? I have no idea.

And does losing Swarzak weaken the middle of the bullpen? I know that he had a bad 2018 but a comeback was not out of the question in my view.

Gwreck
Nov 29 2018 07:59 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Including one prospect in the deal from the Mets’ side makes sense. Diaz is established and comes with club control. And no problem with a bad-contract swap of Cano for Bruce/Swarzak. But you don’t include three key prospects in that deal.

3 key prospects is who you trade to get an impact star.

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 08:09 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Jim Duquette thinks this is too much to give up.

That should tell us something.

Mex17
Nov 29 2018 08:12 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

"Though the deal is not yet official, the trade on the table is Cano/Diaz for Jay Bruce, Anthony Swarzak, Jarred Kelenic, Jeff McNeil, and Justin Dunn. It is possible the Mets can subtract one of those younger players (Kelenic, McNeil, Dunn) before the deal becomes official."

https://www.sny.tv/mets/news

That's a lot.

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 08:18 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

This is propaganda right? So when the real trade is announced we love it more?

Ashie62
Nov 29 2018 08:24 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

BVG, Just don't do it! Stupid plus

Mex17
Nov 29 2018 08:30 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 29 2018 09:00 PM

Food for thought here. . .

Over the remainder of his contract, Cano needs to average 106 hits in order to reach 3,000 and 18 HR to reach 400. He did get nabbed for PEDs once, but it was long after the "steroid era" where a lot of achievements were called into question.

If he hits those milestones with only the one PED blemish and maintains something close to his current career .304/.355/.493 slashline, is he legitimately in the conversaion for Cooperstown?

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 29 2018 08:31 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

This sounds really bad. Is it too late to hire Chaim Bloom?

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 08:42 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

metsmarathon wrote:
i'm intrigued by the possibility of the WATP that mlb.com just sent out...

cano | edwin diaz | mallex smith
for
andres giminez | justin dunn | dom smith | jay bruce

i'm not sure if i'm intrigued enough to pull the trigger on it, but i like that a heck of a lot more than trading noah.


OE: based on steamer projections from fangraphs, that package above would play out to about a 6-win increase for the metsies for '19


I find myself pining for this deal I rejected yesterday.

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 29 2018 08:43 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Mex17 wrote:
"Though the deal is not yet official, the trade on the table is Cano/Diaz for Jay Bruce, Anthony Swarzak, Jarred Kelenic, Jeff McNeil, and Justin Dunn. It is possible the Mets can subtract one of those younger players (Kelenic, McNeil, Dunn) before the deal becomes official."

https://www.sny.tv/mets/news

That's a lot.


Not nearly enough. The Mets will probably need to throw in Jacob deGrom to bring in that haul.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 29 2018 09:04 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

that's fuckimg insane

metirish
Nov 29 2018 09:16 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Martino now reporting those players above and Bautista

EDIT McNeil not in trade

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 29 2018 09:30 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

This is getting real stupid real fast.

#TeamNotAtThisFuckingPrice

Centerfield
Nov 29 2018 09:39 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Maybe Melvin would have been better after all.

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 29 2018 10:07 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

batmagadanleadoff wrote:
"Though the deal is not yet official, the trade on the table is Cano/Diaz for Jay Bruce, Anthony Swarzak, Jarred Kelenic, Jeff McNeil, and Justin Dunn. It is possible the Mets can subtract one of those younger players (Kelenic, McNeil, Dunn) before the deal becomes official."

https://www.sny.tv/mets/news

That's a lot.


Not nearly enough. The Mets will probably need to throw in Jacob deGrom to bring in that haul.


And the thing is, I cant even figure out if that's part of a teardown, or if the Mets are going all in on 2019. On second look-see, and these being the Wilpon owned Mets, that trade looks like a teardown of the present and of the future.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 29 2018 10:25 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

[tweet:3nhbzo70]https://twitter.com/Joelsherman1/status/1068372808454029312[/tweet:3nhbzo70]

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 29 2018 10:42 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Yuck. If this gets done the next move ought to be signing Bryce Harper, I mean if you're going to go for it then go for it. And trade Matz not Syndrome

Mex17
Nov 30 2018 03:39 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Would you trade a Hall of Fame career for Jared Kelenic as a lifelong Seattle Mariner in exchange for one world championship for the Mets within the next three seasons? That is essentially the question now.

Keep in mind that we just witnessed an entire almost Cooperstown worthy (if not for injury) career of a lifelong Met come and go with no championship to show for it.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 04:21 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Mex17 wrote:
Would you trade a Hall of Fame career for Jared Kelenic as a lifelong Seattle Mariner in exchange for one world championship for the Mets within the next three seasons? That is essentially the question now.


No, that's not the question at all. While Kelenic may end up as a Hall-of-Famer, that's just one of many possible scenarios and probably not the most likely one. He could just as easily turn out to be Alex Escobar. Or Fernando Martinez. Or Shawn Abner.

I don't like this deal either (though I dislike it less if McNeil isn't involved) but the Mets apparently think it makes them a better team for 2019 (although that's far from certain) and I guess they figure that, since Kelenic may be four or five years away from playing his first big-league game, they have time to find someone else to replace him.

This trade could turn out to be a very good one, or a very bad one. It's a bold and risky move. It's kind of an answer to anyone who criticized that Sandy Alderson was too cautious. There's a new sheriff in town, and it looks like things are going to be different. For better or worse.

Mex17
Nov 30 2018 05:10 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
No, that's not the question at all.


It's precisely the question because that is what each side wants out of this. Kelenic (and, to a lesser extent, Dunn) is the prize for Seattle. The prospects of a championship for the Mets after a 30+ year drought is the prize for BVW and the Wilpons. Whether or not either or both of those actually happen is where the risk comes in.

BVW is also gambling on there being other toolsy 19 year olds coming up the pike in future years, and that his reinforcements to the FO (Baird and Guttridge) will give him an edge in finding his share of them.

Mex17
Nov 30 2018 05:14 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

-2019 Opening Day
Nimmo-rf
Flores-1b
Cano-2b
Frazier-3b
Conforto-lf
"catcher to be named later"
Lagares-cf
pitcher
Rosario-ss

-Somewhere between just 1st and the All-Star Break (hopefully)
Nimmo-cf
McNeil-3b
Cano-2b
Cespedes-lf
Conforto-rf
"catcher to be named later"
Alonso-1b
pitcher
Rosario-ss


That being said, I still have it in my head that Adam Jones could come here relatively cheap for the purpose of Cespedes injury insurance.

Centerfield
Nov 30 2018 05:31 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

How do you lose a trade where the other team is hamstrung by a full no trade.

We will see what an obstacle that is when we try to move Cano next season.

bmfc1
Nov 30 2018 05:36 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Welcome to the better side of New York!
[tweet:3knypakc]https://twitter.com/yaschwa30/status/1068480306053705730[/tweet:3knypakc]

Fman99
Nov 30 2018 05:37 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

A Boy Named Seo wrote:
[tweet]https://twitter.com/Joelsherman1/status/1068372808454029312[/tweet]


I like this deal way better with McNeil staying in NY. He showed that he can be a legit MLB bat. The prospects are just prospects, none of which have done anything at the MLB level yet.

If McNeil goes along with that package of players I like it WAAAAYYYY less.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Nov 30 2018 05:54 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Sub Gimenez in for Kelenic, and this would've been cool. As it stands... that's a "no" from me, dog. (Even if you're not a believer, Kelenic is an asset you trade for a whale, not a dry-aged Pacific salmon.)

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 06:05 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

The best I can say right now is that this deal isn't as bad as it might have been.

We still need to learn how much money Seattle is including in this deal. I'd like to know what the Mets obligation will be to Cano in the last couple of years of his contract.

G-Fafif
Nov 30 2018 06:15 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Yehuda Schwartz is either scooping everybody or jumping the gun on trade being official.

bmfc1
Nov 30 2018 06:17 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 30 2018 06:57 AM

Thinking positively: The Mets will be better in 2019 and 2020 with Cano and Diaz. You can argue about how much better but they are better. I'm upset about the 3 young players but they weren't helping short-term (Bautista perhaps but he was erratic last year). Also, they are better without Swarzak and Bruce. Bruce's departure means more playing time for Nimmo and Conforto, and it removes an impediment for Alonso and Smith. However, I hope that this ends any discussion of trading Noah (because they are in win-now mode) and it should be an interim move as they still need a right-handed bat.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 06:34 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Who's Yehuda Schwartz?

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 06:54 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

According to this page, the money in Cano's contract is evenly distributed. It won't taper off in the later years, it's an even $24 million per year for each of the next five years.

Robinson Cano Contract Details, Salaries, and Earnings | Spotrac

seawolf17
Nov 30 2018 06:57 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

bmfc1 wrote:
Welcome to the better side of New York!
[tweet]https://twitter.com/yaschwa30/status/1068480306053705730[/tweet]

If this is real, I think I mostly hate it.

MFS62
Nov 30 2018 07:06 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:

No, that's not the question at all. While Kelenic may end up as a Hall-of-Famer, that's just one of many possible scenarios and probably not the most likely one. He could just as easily turn out to be Alex Escobar. Or Fernando Martinez. Or Shawn Abner.

Like you, I don't like this trade. But if I knew that was going to happen, I'd feel a lot better about this.
But I feel he's going to go all Amos Otis on us.


OE: WAIT! Thor isn't in that trade? I feel a lot better about it.
Later

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 07:10 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Even if he's Amos Otis, he's still not a Hall-of-Famer.

And no, Syndergaard was never part of the Cano conversation.

dgwphotography
Nov 30 2018 07:19 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 30 2018 07:21 AM

I'm not crazy about this trade, but I like how proactive BVW has been so far, so I'll wait and see how the roster looks on Opening Day.

OE: I'm not sure it's really official yet. there is nothing in the At Bat app that says it is.

MFS62
Nov 30 2018 07:21 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

If this is primarily for the short term, Fangraphs is projecting McNeil and Cano to have the same WAR next year. If he were still included in the deal, it would have boiled down to all those other players for the reliever.

Later

DocTee
Nov 30 2018 07:24 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

I like this only if Cano plays 1B. McNeil showed enough to handle second (and I'm high on TJ Rivera coming back strong).

I thought Swarzak was good enough, when healthy. Bruce deserves a fresh start. This is a high risk/high reward proposition. Beats the hell out of signing Jeff Conine or whoever else is on the discount rack but I'd have rather held onto future assets than acquire past All Stars.

metirish
Nov 30 2018 08:02 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Martino saying "roughly $60M headed Mets way"

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 08:07 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

So Cano would be costing the Mets $12 million per year. That's not horrible.

86-Dreamer
Nov 30 2018 08:09 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 30 2018 08:11 AM

i think of this as two separate deals:

1. Cano as a free agent for 3 years at $x dollars (3 being the number of years i think can reasonably project his productivity). If you factor in the subtraction of Bruce and Swarzak's 36.5 million, they are at 83.5 million for 3 years of productivity right now. That is way too much of course so the real key is how much they are getting back from the M's. Murphy and Dozier are currently projected as $10 million per year guys. I think Cano is a little better than both, say $12 million. Mets hopefully have much smarter guys than me doing the math and are getting $45+ million back.

2. Kelenic, Dunn & Bautista for Diaz. Two top prospects that are years away and a flyer for an established pre-arb young star. Doesn't sound so crazy. Can anyone compare that to recent trades for a young star?

None of this means I like the deal!

HahnSolo
Nov 30 2018 08:09 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

I'm now thinking about Swarzak. I was figuring on a bounceback, or at least healthy, year.

I guess they're even more in the market for FA relievers now.

smg58
Nov 30 2018 08:26 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

The fact that McNeil is not included makes it only marginally awful. But it's still not clear where Cano and McNeil will both play. It's worth keeping in mind that Cano's bat presents a decent, but not huge, upgrade over the kind of first basemen that get claimed off waivers.

The bottom line is: you are trading your #3 and #4 prospects, plus taking on an albatross contract that belongs to a confirmed cheater that you don't yet have a position for, for a relief pitcher. Diaz is really good, and I will feel bad if the fan reaction to him is negative over this, but he is a relief pitcher.

I suppose it makes the Mets a few games better over the short term without substantially adding to the 2019 payroll. But now we need more bullpen depth (we traded two relievers and only got one back, and were shorthanded to begin with), plus we have unresolved situations at catcher and centerfield that went unaddressed. And we added a medium-impact left-handed bat when we needed a high-impact right-handed one.

And trading multiple top-5 prospects while taking on a contract that will get worse over the next five years is not a recipe for sustained success. It gets worse if the gutted farm system and burdensome contract come with no desire to add payroll.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 08:29 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Are we even sure yet that it's a "fact" that McNeil isn't included?

smg58
Nov 30 2018 08:32 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Are we even sure yet that it's a "fact" that McNeil isn't included?


Fair point. Nothing is official yet, but it's being reported that way.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 08:34 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

I know. It's very confusing. I certainly hope that McNeil isn't included, but until there's an official announcement, we're just juggling a lot of rumors.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 30 2018 08:38 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

So, um, the Mets got the best player in the trade, so we won the trade, right? Right??

Lefty Specialist
Nov 30 2018 08:59 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

This has to be the prelude to something else, because I'm not crazy about it right now. McNeil better not be in it, and there better be plenty of money coming back. Dunn and Bautista I can live with, but Kelenic really hurts.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 30 2018 09:05 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Hopefully Syndergaard is not their path to re-stocking the top of the farm system, but I think that may be likely.

Centerfield
Nov 30 2018 09:08 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

A Boy Named Seo wrote:
Hopefully Syndergaard is not their path to re-stocking the top of the farm system, but I think that may be likely.


This is scary.

Wouldn't we have been better off just making Syndergaard our closer?

dgwphotography
Nov 30 2018 09:15 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Wasn't BVW also Syndergaard's agent? Maybe he's privy to something we aren't?

Centerfield
Nov 30 2018 09:21 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

I hate this trade. Not just for what it might be if Kelenic is good, or if Diaz blows out his elbow, but because of what it signals right now.

1. Money. It always comes down to this doesn't it? Understand this. When we trade our high-priced veterans, we make the other teams pay full freight. This is why we get dick back in return. The only piece that has been useful in all of our mid-season dumps is Gerson Batista. And he's only useful because he's the throw-in for this trade. He's the piece that literally no one cares we are giving up. But when we take veterans back, we hold them up for as much money as possible. Meaning we have to give up two of our best prospects. You want to talk about sustained success? You don't trade chips like Kelenic for salary relief. And that's what it is. If we eat more money on Cano, Kelenic is not part of this deal.

2. The idea of a fair trade. I'm reading things like "If both sides think it's bad, it's a pretty good trade." Yes, this is generally true. You know when it's not true? When one side is hampered with an expensive star with a full no trade. Giancarlo Stanton. Ken Griffey Jr. These are the trades that look one-sided. And anyone says "Why couldn't the Mariners get more value for Griffey?", someone will point to the no trade clause and it all makes sense. No trade clause trades are one-sided. They handicapped team gets fleeced. This is why you try to avoid no-trades. It is unspeakably break even in a trade where the other guy has the no trade. If the returns are close enough to be deemed fair, you've lost. And here, I think we lost the trade outright. In a deal where we had all the leverage in the world and Seattle had none, we somehow came out behind. This speaks very poorly to Brodie's ability to make future trades where we don't have a mountain of leverage on our side.

On top of this, I think Cano will decline fast, and I think the Mets will not take the money they saved and spend it on elite talent. I think Kelenic is going to be a star, and we are going to regret this for years. But we can save that for another day. I hate this trade for those reasons that we know are true today.

Centerfield
Nov 30 2018 09:27 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Per Ken Rosenthal, Mariners GM DiPoto was said to be "euphoric" over the return for Cano and Diaz.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 30 2018 09:49 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

I'm sure he is. They got 2 of the Mets last 4 #1 picks and a young, 100MPH flame-thrower who can become Edwin Diaz if he learns the strike zone. Cool.

batmagadanleadoff
Nov 30 2018 10:01 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

I'm really leery of baseball players who missed most of their 35 year old seasons. I know how good Cano was up until his suspension, but even without the half a season missed at 35 years old, he's way closer to the end than to the beginning. Plus, what was already noted here -- "Who's on Second?" Obviously, the Mets didn't make this trade to platoon McNeil and Cano. Did the Mets move all these players to acquire Cano, and on top of all the question marks he already brings, the Mets intend to play Cano at a position he's practically never played at all in the Majors?

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 10:12 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Here's a view from the Seattle News Tribune that's not fully enthusiastic about the deal:

Is potential Cano-Diaz trade to Mets too costly for Mariners?

Says the Mariners are trading two superstars to get one potential superstar.

Centerfield
Nov 30 2018 10:33 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Here's a view from the Seattle News Tribune that's not fully enthusiastic about the deal:

Is potential Cano-Diaz trade to Mets too costly for Mariners?

Says the Mariners are trading two superstars to get one potential superstar.


I'm happy to give them back their two superstars.

Let's call the whole thing off.

86-Dreamer
Nov 30 2018 10:34 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

here is a comparable deal for the Diaz part of the trade:

Highly Rated Outfield Prospect (Clint Frazier / Jared Kelenic) + Highly Rated Lefthanded Starting Pitcher Prospect (Justus Sheffield / Justin Dunn) + Mid-Level Relief Prospects (Ben Heller and J.P. Feyereisen / Gerson Bautista) for Star Reliever (Andrew Miller / Edwin Diaz)

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/1718 ... -prospects

if the $60 million is true, the overall deal looks a lot better in terms of value exchanged. Whether it is the right deal for the Mets is questionable, but we will know eventually.....

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 30 2018 11:09 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

I'm not happy about it in a matter of taste.

The Mets are so crazy about getting guys at a discount; and they're so crazy about "saves" as a thing; they'll do anything to get them.

Now we have a 36-year-old ex-Yankee steroid cheat who's gonna steal the position of the one guy everyone wants to watch next year to cheer for.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 11:16 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

My hope is that somehow it's Frazier that's displaced by Cano, and not McNeil, but who knows?

Cano may end up at first base with the Mets dealing Alonso for a catcher.

86-Dreamer
Nov 30 2018 12:07 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I expect McNeil will start 3x/week for either Frazier or Alonso against RHP plus occasional starts for Cano. He will also get an outfielders glove and a picture of Ben Zobrist to hang in his locker.

now get us another top reliever, and upgrades at C & CF

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 12:50 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

There really hasn't been many updates to this story today. Does this mean they're furiously finalizing the details behind closed doors? Or could it be that it's fizzling?

Centerfield
Nov 30 2018 01:00 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I've been rooting for failed physicals.

It's saved our ass once before.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 01:02 PM
Re: Can You Cano?


Ashie62
Nov 30 2018 01:16 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Mets players who may be involved have been notified by management per Dicomo

Zvon
Nov 30 2018 01:35 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Ashie62 wrote:
Mets players who may be involved have been notified by management per Dicomo


Management: "Hello Jay? Mets management here. You may have been traded."

Bruce: "May have? Well get back to me when you know more."

Management: "Oh no, it's a done deal. It's official."

Bruce: "Ugh! Gimme the bottomline."

Management: " Okay....you may have been traded."

Frayed Knot
Nov 30 2018 01:36 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I do recall Nimmo being named as part of the Jay Bruce deal as that one was coming down to the wire.
Obviously he didn't wind up being part of it.

metirish
Nov 30 2018 01:48 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Centerfield wrote:
I've been rooting for failed physicals.

It's saved our ass once before.


BVW ass is in the jackpot right now

seawolf17
Nov 30 2018 01:56 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

metirish wrote:
Centerfield wrote:
I've been rooting for failed physicals.

It's saved our ass once before.


BVW ass is in the jackpot right now

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 30 2018 02:01 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

[tweet:mjfufzti]https://twitter.com/PSLToFlushing/status/1068538854360186880[/tweet:mjfufzti]

RealityChuck
Nov 30 2018 02:03 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Note that Cano's suspension had nothing to do with actual steroids; he was found to have a diuretic that was banned because it can be used to hide steroid use, but that doesn't seem to be the case: it was on the banned list and Cano used it without realizing it.

The best way is to think of this as two trades: Cano for Bruce and Swarzak is one. Not all that terrible; all the players involved are going into the down phase of their careers.

The second is Diaz for Dunn, Kelenic, and Bautista. Diaz is a big plus, probably their best closer since Billy Wagner. Dunn and Kelenic have a lot of potential, but by the time they make it to the majors, the chance will have passed.

Getting Diaz is a big plus for the team. Cano is probably equal or better than Bruce.

It may not be a great trade, but it's far from terrible.

41Forever
Nov 30 2018 02:04 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:



No way is he going to wear No. 24 in a Mets uniform!!!!

seawolf17
Nov 30 2018 02:11 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Yeah, that's weird. I wonder why they 'shopped him in 24. He wore 22 in Seattle.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 02:21 PM
Re: Can You Cano?



He looks much happier to be a Yankee than to be a Met.

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 02:25 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

RealityChuck wrote:
The best way is to think of this as two trades: Cano for Bruce and Swarzak is one. Not all that terrible; all the players involved are going into the down phase of their careers.

The second is Diaz for Dunn, Kelenic, and Bautista. Diaz is a big plus, probably their best closer since Billy Wagner. Dunn and Kelenic have a lot of potential, but by the time they make it to the majors, the chance will have passed.


I think that's a reasonable take. And Cano won't be nearly as much of an albatross if the reports that the Mariners are sending $60 million to the Mets are true.

Methead
Nov 30 2018 02:32 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

The feeling is fading somewhat, but I felt sick about this deal last night.

Part of it is I really have a good feeling about Kelenic, and he's one kid I was really excited to watch develop through the system. I don't even think it will take that long.

That, and I can't believe I'm going to be sitting here rooting for Cano.

John Cougar Lunchbucket
Nov 30 2018 02:37 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

seawolf17 wrote:
Yeah, that's weird. I wonder why they 'shopped him in 24. He wore 22 in Seattle.



He was 24 as a Yankee

Diaz can step into his customary 39, left vacant by Blevvy

Benjamin Grimm
Nov 30 2018 02:49 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

24 is retired in Seattle for Ken Griffey Jr.

I'd be okay with Cano wearing it as a Met. I love Willie Mays, but it's time to take that number out of mothballs.

Centerfield
Nov 30 2018 03:06 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
24 is retired in Seattle for Ken Griffey Jr.

I'd be okay with Cano wearing it as a Met. I love Willie Mays, but it's time to take that number out of mothballs.


Rickey Henderson wore it. No reason not to give it to Cano.

Except that he will fail his physical and will never be a Met so who cares about his number anyway.

Mex17
Nov 30 2018 03:30 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Mex17 wrote:
Food for thought here. . .

Over the remainder of his contract, Cano needs to average 106 hits in order to reach 3,000 and 18 HR to reach 400. He did get nabbed for PEDs once, but it was long after the "steroid era" where a lot of achievements were called into question.

If he hits those milestones with only the one PED blemish and maintains something close to his current career .304/.355/.493 slashline, is he legitimately in the conversaion for Cooperstown?


Cano is a borderline (perhaps likely) Hall of Famer. You waive the Mays rule for him.

Edgy MD
Nov 30 2018 03:33 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Mays waived the Mays rule for Henderson.

Frayed Knot
Nov 30 2018 03:35 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

The best way is to think of this as two trades: Cano for Bruce and Swarzak is one.


I was thinking of this as two separate deals as well.
If it were just Cano for the two vets I think most would be at least semi-OK with it and it certainly (likely anyway) makes us a better team for '19-'20


Which leaves the remaining question as to whether Dunn + Kelenic are too much for an established, and top line, closer.
You question the idea of giving up not just a 1st round pick but a #6 overall, and doing so so quickly. That said he's a loonggg way from the majors (220 rookie lg ABs to date) and the further away a
prospect is from the majors the higher he needs to be in potential in order to pry loose a known quantity. Dunn was a somewhat lower pick (#19th) and is further along but hasn't had a great track
record to this point (high ERAs until his final 9 starts at PSL this summer).

metirish
Nov 30 2018 05:49 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Jeff Passean

The Mets - Mariners deal as @joelsherman said , won't get done today and is likely to be pushed to Monday, sources told Yahoo Sports. The question is how much money Seattle sends to cover Robinson Cano's contract, and sources say it's likely to be in the mid $20 million range


Well, that's a lot less than has been reported earlier.....maybe the whole thing will still fall asunder

d'Kong76
Nov 30 2018 06:01 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

$60 million made this idea somewhat reasonable, $20 million makes this
a sucker deal in favor of SEA.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 30 2018 07:15 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

The 2 separate deals thing doesn't hold water for me cause I don't think the Mariners do the Edwin Diaz "deal" unless the Mets do the the Cano "deal". Also, if it's $20M dollars coming back with Cano, then LOLfuckingMETS

Mex17
Nov 30 2018 07:40 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

If the Mariners are only kicking in $20 million than Kenenic cannot be in the deal. Why would the Mets include him if they are taking on $100 million in salary for a guy who is 36? If they are doing that, then the reason for Diaz is as an enticement for the Mets bailing Seattle out of the majority of the contract.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-sA-NqMlvI

Frayed Knot
Nov 30 2018 07:48 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

A Boy Named Seo wrote:
The 2 separate deals thing doesn't hold water for me cause I don't think the Mariners do the Edwin Diaz "deal" unless the Mets do the the Cano "deal".


And I don't Actually think of it as two separate deals either (nor, I suspect, does Chuck). I was more just sort of mentally breaking it down that way for analysis purposes.
It may be possible to talk the M's into dealing just Diaz alone but the price would tend to be higher in that case and they'd have fewer incentives to make it.

Centerfield
Nov 30 2018 07:49 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Please let this deal fall apart over money. Please please.

Make them pay the whole salary Jeff! Not a penny less! Don’t you dare open that wallet!

Centerfield
Nov 30 2018 07:55 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

The best way is to think of this as two trades: Cano for Bruce and Swarzak is one.


I was thinking of this as two separate deals as well.
If it were just Cano for the two vets I think most would be at least semi-OK with it and it certainly (likely anyway) makes us a better team for '19-'20


Which leaves the remaining question as to whether Dunn + Kelenic are too much for an established, and top line, closer.
You question the idea of giving up not just a 1st round pick but a #6 overall, and doing so so quickly. That said he's a loonggg way from the majors (220 rookie lg ABs to date) and the further away a
prospect is from the majors the higher he needs to be in potential in order to pry loose a known quantity. Dunn was a somewhat lower pick (#19th) and is further along but hasn't had a great track
record to this point (high ERAs until his final 9 starts at PSL this summer).


No. This is wrong. If it were Cano alone, no one would touch him with a ten foot pole. Shouldn’t anyway.

Swarzak and Bruce combine for what, $30 million? No way you sign a 36 year old PED user to a 5 year $90 million deal. Giving him a 2 year deal is too much. We talk about spending wisely. This is absolutely the polar opposite.

So they have to give us Diaz to even consider taking this on. Diaz and Cano are consideration for each other. They cannot be separated.

So effectively, you are giving up Kelenic, and Dunn, and Batista and taking on the non Bruce/Swarzak portion of the Cano deal, for Edwin Diaz. A closer.

This is fucking insane.

metirish
Nov 30 2018 08:00 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Martino towing the company line now about the money

Whatever the money I pretty much like this trade for the Mets, even though a lot of GM's don't. Bvw stirring it up and trying to win. Which is what he said he would do. That's about to get really interesting

Frayed Knot
Nov 30 2018 08:01 PM
Re: Can You Cano?


No. This is wrong. If it were Cano alone, no one would touch him with a ten foot pole. Shouldn’t anyway.

Swarzak and Bruce combine for what, $30 million? No way you sign a 36 year old PED user to a 5 year $90 million deal. Giving him a 2 year deal is too much. We talk about spending wisely. This is absolutely the polar opposite.


I meant to write that if it were Bruce + Swarzak for Cano + $$$$ then some would be OK with it ... depending on the amount of cash of course.


And, again (although you may have been already typing prior to my 9:48 response), I didn't mean to imply that they were Actual separate deals, only that I found that it helped to mentally think of them that way.

Centerfield
Nov 30 2018 08:03 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

metirish wrote:
Martino towing the company line now about the money

Whatever the money I pretty much like this trade for the Mets, even though a lot of GM's don't. Bvw stirring it up and trying to win. Which is what he said he would do. That's about to get really interesting


It’s a shocking quote.

metirish
Nov 30 2018 08:07 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Shocking indeed , btw that last line should read "Mets about to get really interesting" , my mistake

Mex17
Nov 30 2018 08:10 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

$120M - ($26M for Bruce + $8M for Swarzak +#20M from Seattle) = $66 million. Over 5 years that is a $13.2 AAV. . .too much for a guy who is 36 now. Diaz offsets that, that's fair. Them then getting Kelenic on top of it all skews it too much in their favor.

Frayed Knot
Nov 30 2018 08:13 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

And then there's Ackert (NYDN) who writes: The Mets would also be dumping the salaries of Jay Bruce, who is owed $28 million over the next two years, and Anthony Swarzak, who is in the final year of his two-year, $14 million deal with the Mets, onto the Mariners’ payroll. That roughly leaves $85 million of Cano’s salary remaining over the next five years and the Mets sources said the Mariners will cover much of that.

[emphasis mine]


That's why I can't get too crazy over the details of these things until we actually, y'know, KNOW the details of these things. Like, for instance, how many millions is "much of" 85 million? The implication there is more than half but I don't know that.
I mentioned in another thread (or maybe earlier in this one ... I can't keep track) that Nimmo was said for a time to be included in the Jay Bruce deal ... except that he wound up not being included.

A Boy Named Seo
Nov 30 2018 09:41 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

FK - I knew you didn’t mean that it was actually two separate deals. I was saying that even mentally splitting them up didn’t work (for me) because neither team would agree to one piece without the other IMO.

And I agree on waiting to find out about the money but numbers floated call for speculation and we all are. $60M coming this way makes me only normal hate it. $20M coming this way is a cocktail of hatred and anger and hopelessness that I will choke on when I drink it this season anyway. Hopefully good news emerges.

Mex17
Dec 01 2018 04:12 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

A Boy Named Seo wrote:
$60M coming this way makes me only normal hate it. $20M coming this way is a cocktail of hatred and anger and hopelessness that I will choke on when I drink it this season anyway.


But you can't detach that from Kelenec. Either the Mets taking on the money, thereby alleviating Seattle of the financial burden, equates to less players of lesser quality going to Seattle, or Seatlle forking big money over means that they are compensated for that with a top prospect like Kelenic. You cannot quibble over the amount of dollars that the Mariners kick in without tethering Kelenic directly to those negotiations. That is how these types of trades are supposed to work.

Centerfield
Dec 01 2018 07:06 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

The remaining years left on the Cano contract are foolish. Even if you cut it in half it’s too much. It’s still a bad trade at $60 million.

At $20 million it’s incomprehensible.

Full no trade clause. Those trades are supposed to be one sided.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 01 2018 08:44 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

I read somewhere that the Commissioner's office has to approve any transaction in which more than $1 million moves from one team to another, and that they only do these kinds of approvals during normal business hours, which means that this thing won't get done until Monday at the earliest. Which gives us an extra two days for this to potentially fall apart for one reason or another, not that I think that's likely to happen.

Centerfield
Dec 01 2018 07:56 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I’ve resigned myself to the fact that this trade will happen. Nothing to do now but to hope for the best. Maybe Cano will stay productive for three years and Diaz will be as good as advertised.

Selfishly I hope that I don’t have to watch Kelenic turn into a star for Seattle, but it seems wrong to root against a kid that had nothing to do with this trade. So at least I can take solace that he’s in the AL West.

If there is one positive, it seems the overwhelming thought, even among those who like the trade, is that this move must be followed by a commitment to win by the Wilpons. No more excuses. Sign some elite players.

The bad news is that I’ve lost all confidence in Brodie Van Wagenen. If he can’t win a trade where he has this much leverage, how badly will he be fleeced on an even playing field?

But we’ll see. It’s one move. In fact, it’s not even one move yet. Long offseason. Maybe we end up with Harper still.

Centerfield
Dec 01 2018 08:03 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Looks like it just went official. It’s $20 million. Not $60.

I give up.

metsmarathon
Dec 01 2018 08:50 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

does this at least maybe hopefully mean that the wilpons aren't skinflint cheapasses for the upcoming season? i mean, if they're just gonna throw money away and all...

though i've yet to really see actual confirmation on the $20M figure. that's where i'm pegging all of my hopeful energies...

metirish
Dec 01 2018 08:50 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

A lot of the MLB writers on Twitter are saying this is 5 years for Cano at $63 million once all the $$$$$ are factored in, whatever, hope it all works out

TheOldMole
Dec 01 2018 08:52 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I absolutely do not care about the money end of it. It’s not my money. My only concern is whether this makes them a better team. And a worry that settles over me every time the Mets get a star infielder from the American League. The record is not good.

Ashie62
Dec 01 2018 09:36 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

We get an ace closer, why would Seattle even move Diaz??? Yikes

Bruce and Swarzak were expendable

I am cautiously optimistic

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Dec 01 2018 10:54 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

TheOldMole wrote:
I absolutely do not care about the money end of it. It’s not my money. My only concern is whether this makes them a better team.


Considering how this team has operated over the past decade or so, the two are inextricably related. Hell, they're causally linked.

First, if they're getting this little compensation in return for accepting Cano's salary, the prospect cost of obtaining Diaz should be a lot less than it apparently is. That it isn't affects the team's theoretical ability to compete in the near-to-long-term future by either robbing them of a future on-field asset or someone else Kelenic/Dunn could have helped bring in trade.

Second, since they're getting this little compensation in return, that impacts their ability to bring in additional players on the FA market.

That they're getting this little compensation in return makes this a trade they probably should have let others outbid them to make. The money matters.

Mex17
Dec 02 2018 05:04 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 03 2018 02:12 AM

metirish wrote:
A lot of the MLB writers on Twitter are saying this is 5 years for Cano at $63 million once all the $$$$$ are factored in, whatever, hope it all works out


Yeah, but is that going to work out in real time once Bruce and Swarzak are actually off the books? It seems to me that it all depends on how and when the $20 million is going to come over.

We would not need a penny of it this year since Bruce's $14.5 million (salary plus portion of signing bonus owed in 2019) and Swarzak's $8 million mean that Cano is effectively being paid $1.5 million by the Mets this year. In 2020, you can subtract another $14.5 for Bruce and now Cano is only owed $9.5 million, which would probably be reasonable if you are singing a 37 year old with Cano's track record to a one year contract. So I would be totally fine if Seattle sends us zero dollars over the first two years.

That leaves three more years where Cano is owed $24 million per and now you would have $20 million from Seattle to allocate over those three years. The best i can figure it is thusly. . .

2021 (age 38 season): $24 million - $4 million from Seattle = $20 million
2022 (age 39 season): $24 million - $6 million from Seattle = $18 million
2023 (age 40 season): $24 million - $10 million from Seattle = $14 million

Is that what BVW worked out? Will we ever know if he did one way or the other? I have no idea.

smg58
Dec 02 2018 05:23 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

This assumes that Bruce and Swarzak are completely valueless in the meantime, which is naive at best.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 02 2018 05:35 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Does this qualify as good news???

Edwin Diaz’s bone spur condition hasn’t been a problem yet

Mex17
Dec 02 2018 07:09 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

smg58 wrote:
This assumes that Bruce and Swarzak are completely valueless in the meantime, which is naive at best.


I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I'm talking pure dollars and cents and arithmetic.

Centerfield
Dec 02 2018 07:36 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

You’re discounting their entire salaries. This deduction is incorrect unless the players are completely valueless.

If the Mets offered to pay $20 million of Bruce’s salary, most teams would want him. And maybe even give up a prospect or two.

If that number dropped to half his salary, there would still be several teams interested. Especially in the AL where he could DH.

The Mets needed only one team to bite, so they might have been able to get away with paying even less.

So that means you can’t deduct the full salary. Only what they would have been stuck with in a prospective deal with another team.

Mex17
Dec 02 2018 07:50 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Centerfield wrote:
You’re discounting their entire salaries.


Of course I am. They are off the Mets payroll and are being paid by Seattle. In turn, Cano is off Seattle's payroll and is being paid by the Mets.

I'm not dealing with sabermetrics and speculation here, even if you are. I'm talking only about this deal, these salaries, and math.

d'Kong76
Dec 02 2018 08:38 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Put me down for a big fat UGG if this becomes official with only $20 mil coming
back. Everyone and their sisters thought Cano's contract was for way too much
when he signed and now the cash-strapped Mets are going to bail out the latter
years? It's a nightmare in the making. Diaz? Bone spurs? Jesus, Mary and Jose!

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 02 2018 08:39 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Well, the bone spur hasn't been a problem yet!

I admire the right margin in your post. Did you do that intentionally?

Chad Ochoseis
Dec 02 2018 08:40 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Much of this is about the total disconnect between cost and value in MLB.

Cano is owed $120M for 5 years. He's still good; even assuming he won't stay that way for more than a few years, the value of his service is probably about $30M.

Diaz is under team control for 3 years. Figure with arbitration, he'll cost about $6M for that period. The value of three years of his service is probably about $60M

So the Mets are taking on $126M in salary from the Mariners for about $90M of value. The "when" of this makes absolutely no difference; we're paying $126M and getting about $90M in value back. So there's a deficit of $36M.

------

Bruce is owed $28M for 2 years. He's probably still better than replacement value, but not much. Figure his value is $3M for two years of service.

Swarzak is owed $8.5M for 1 year. His actual value is probably about $1M.

The Mariners are adding $20M

So the Mets are giving up $4M of value and getting $56.5M in return, effectively gaining $52.5M.

------

So, effectively, the Mets are ahead $16.5M before considering the value of Kelenic and Dunn.

I like keeping prospects. They're low risk, high reward plays. Even if four prospects out of five wind up going to law school or becoming managers at the local Wal-Mart, the failure is more than offset by having six years of low-cost team control over the one guy who stays on and turns into a solid major leaguer, or even a star. And Kelenic has star potential. I'd say his value and Dunn's combined is a little more than $16.5M.

All in all, like most trades, this one is roughly a wash in terms of value. Maybe a little bit of an edge to Seattle. And although Diaz fills a need, Cano doesn't, though the team is improved with Cano at 2nd, McNeil at 3rd, and Frazier on the bench, if that's the plan. So I wouldn't have made this trade, though I'm not breaking out the pitchforks and torches over it.

One worry I have is that when Cano starts falling apart a few years down the road, which is inevitable, the Mets are going to be afraid to DFA him and eat his salary, forgetting that the salary he's paid was really for Edwin Diaz's services, not Cano's. Cano's just the one getting the money; Diaz is earning it. That sucks for Diaz and is great for Cano, but shouldn't matter to the rest of us.

MFS62
Dec 02 2018 08:45 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

You still have to have a lead in a game before you need a closer.
And how many times did we feel frustrated by the Mets offense last year, especially when DeGrom pitched?
Now lets see what they can do to address other needs before we assess the impact of Diaz.


Later

Centerfield
Dec 02 2018 08:47 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

If you’re talking about who is paying what, then you can’t say that the Mets are “effectively” paying Cano $1.5 million this year. Your logic doesn’t add up.

You can’t discount the full salary of Bruce and Swarzak.

If you go strictly by who is paying what, the Mets are paying $20 million for the next five years.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Dec 02 2018 08:58 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Chad Ochoseis wrote:
I'd say his value and Dunn's combined is a little more than $15.5M.


I ain't no perfesshnul baseball val-you-ate-er, er what fer... But ah 'spect this here's a MASSIVE undervaluation of two top-100 prospects, even if you build a significant amount of risk into the pricing.

Even if they end up as three years of cost-controlled bench-player/middle-reliever (right around the fattest part of the possible-results bell curve, yeah?), that in and of itself would probs be worth in the tens of millions in surplus value (assuming the FA price of WAR stays at, like, 8M per). Their real value is-- WAG alert!-- probably more in the $50-60M range. (Consider how many of these move for a guy like Paxton.)

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 02 2018 09:08 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

The only math that matters here is the math that the Wilpons are doing, regardless of whether or not it's accurate.

If they think/i] this deal gives them more money to spend, then hopefully they'll spend more money.

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr
Dec 02 2018 09:14 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Fair point. But they got significantly less money back than previously rumored/expected, Grimmy. Do you think that makes them more likely to splash the pot, FA-wise?

smg58
Dec 02 2018 09:19 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

In 2017, Bruce and Swarzak together were worth more than Cano. Last year they both played hurt. Bruce had an OPS over .800 when he returned, which was perfectly in line with what he normally does when healthy. That won't make anybody take on his full contract by itself, but he's worth a lot more than $3M over 2 years. It's also worth mentioning that they're both younger.

So Cano has hung around 3 WAR for three of the last 4 seasons. Let's start with that as his baseline. He's 36, so we'll go with 3, 2.5, 2, 1.5, and 1 WAR over his five seasons. That's 10 WAR, worth roughly $80M. The Mariners are eating $20M, so he's at -$20M by himself.

Bruce has 2.4 WAR combined over the last two seasons. We'll go with that as his median likely value, making him at -$7M by himself.

Swarzak has 2.0 WAR combined over his last two seasons. 1 WAR is worth $8M, so he's break-even.

So you're counting on four years of Diaz being worth $13M more than what Kellenic, Dunn, and Bautista can do before free agency. Diaz had 3.2 WAR in a year he's not likely to top, but we'll be optimistic and give him 12 WAR over the next 4 years. We'll also give him salaries of $0.5M, $7.2M, $10.8M, and $14.4M -- so we'll say $96M of value for a $33M cost, for a $63M net. Make no mistakes, HE'S the key to the deal. If he pitches to last year for four straight years with us, the deal will look all right. But that's not a guarantee.

The gamble is that Kellenic, Dunn, and Bautista will combine for value less than $50M, or a bit more than 6 WAR, above their pre-free agency salaries, assuming we get four years like 2017 from Diaz. Basically, two good years (or one exceptional year) from one of these guys makes it a push.

I do think it's fair to say that the deal makes the 2019 Mets better. But it's also perfectly fair to ask if the improvement could have been made in a less costly fashion.

d'Kong76
Dec 02 2018 09:31 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
I admire the right margin in your post. Did you do that intentionally?

Call me OCD, mentally ill or just plain bonkers... I like me a tidy post!

Edgy MD
Dec 02 2018 10:03 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

[fimg=450]http://www.gstatic.com/tv/thumb/persons/402/402_v9_ba.jpg[/fimg]
"I tell ya, this deal is taking a longer time to consummate than my
MARRIAGE! You kidding me?"

d'Kong76
Dec 02 2018 10:10 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Dr. Vinny Boombatz has been oddly quiet on this on the twitter this weekend.

Centerfield
Dec 02 2018 04:57 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

LeiterWagnerFasterStrongr wrote:
Fair point. But they got significantly less money back than previously rumored/expected, Grimmy. Do you think that makes them more likely to splash the pot, FA-wise?


Those in favor of the trade seem to think that this means more moves are on the way. I don’t know if they think this means elite free agents. Let’s hope so. I agree they will sign a few players. I guess we can only wait and see the quality of those players.

Personally, I think these headline grabbing trades and trade rumors mean we won’t shop at the top of the market.

But we will all soon find out.

metirish
Dec 02 2018 05:30 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Any word on when the press conference will be? Assume Mets send out official release tomorrow? Big day at CF during the week ?

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 02 2018 05:41 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

My guess is that the trade becomes official tomorrow and the press conference will be on Tuesday. But that's just a guess.

MFS62
Dec 02 2018 05:51 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Heard on the radio that the medical stuff can't be reviewed by both teams and signed off until Monday, so it could be Tuesday before they get all the paperwork in order.

Later

seawolf17
Dec 03 2018 06:32 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Does this qualify as good news???

Edwin Diaz’s bone spur condition hasn’t been a problem yet

That's because his plane hasn't landed yet in New York. By the time he gets here, I'm sure he'll have a 12-18 month injury to announce.

Centerfield
Dec 03 2018 08:30 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Keith Law thinks it was a mistake. This is from his twitter:

(Not sure how to embed), but the tweet reads:

IMO yes. I think this deal undervalued both prospects, especially Kelenic, relative to the way the rest of baseball sees them. My writeup (ESPN+)


He has an ESPN Insider article too.

http://insider.espn.com/mlb/insider/sto ... haunt-them

But it's subscription and I can only read the intro. Basically it seems like he's calling it a foolish move. Underestimated the value Kelenic among other teams. I agree with this.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 03 2018 08:38 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

And it overestimates (in my opinion) the value of a closer. If Diaz is really the best of the best it will be nice to have him, but they've paid too much to get him.

Centerfield
Dec 03 2018 08:45 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
And it overestimates (in my opinion) the value of a closer. If Diaz is really the best of the best it will be nice to have him, but they've paid too much to get him.


I mean, at some point I have to let it go. But to do all this when you have all the leverage coming from a no trade clause. It's just mind boggling.

Deep breaths.

Lefty Specialist
Dec 03 2018 08:49 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Law has never been a fan of the Mets, but I can't argue with him about the foolishness of including Kelenic in this deal. Seattle's doing a salary dump and apparently not sending that much money, which should lower the return the Mariners get. That's always the way it works when the Mets dump salary.

d'Kong76
Dec 03 2018 12:21 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

11:00 AM news conference tomorrow.

metirish
Dec 03 2018 12:44 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

#24 .....last worn by ????? i know this cos I follow Bucket on Twitter

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 03 2018 12:53 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Rickey Henderson

d'Kong76
Dec 03 2018 12:55 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I read Kelvin Torve I think somewhere recently?

G-Fafif
Dec 03 2018 01:23 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Rickey wore 24 with Willie's blessing in 1999 and 2000. Kelvin Torve wore it in 1990, presumably by bureaucratic foulup. Nobody else has had it since Mays left his coaching position following the 1979 season.

41Forever
Dec 03 2018 02:16 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 03 2018 02:18 PM

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 03 2018 02:17 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

I just got the "It's Official!" e-mail from the Mets.

I get the impression we're supposed to be happy about this.

G-Fafif
Dec 03 2018 02:19 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Press conference will dovetail with Mets' previously scheduled kids' holiday party. Cano and Diaz will double as Santa Nimmo's special helpers.

seawolf17
Dec 03 2018 02:21 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

G-Fafif wrote:
Press conference will dovetail with Mets' previously scheduled kids' holiday party. Cano and Diaz will double as Santa Nimmo's special helpers.

Wilpons allegedly thrilled to be saving money by combining both events into one.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 03 2018 02:22 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Kids will be lining up to sit on Diaz's bone spur.

A Boy Named Seo
Dec 03 2018 03:15 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Benjamin Grimm wrote:
Kids will be lining up to sit on Diaz's bone spur.


Gross

Centerfield
Dec 03 2018 03:53 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Shockingly, other executives are expressing surprise at the underwhelming returns going back to Seattle for Segura, who had a no trade clause.

Dipoto asked for one of Philadelphia's young arms. They said no. Seattle did the trade anyway.

RealityChuck
Dec 03 2018 04:17 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

An issue that needs to be addressed is the lack of outfielders now. There are currently only four on the roster (4 1/2 if you count Dom Smith), and one won't play before June.

Maybe they're serious about signing Harper and have a all-lefty outfield.

A Boy Named Seo
Dec 03 2018 06:27 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

How do we spend thy bounty?

[tweet:23jxlz12]https://twitter.com/Joelsherman1/status/1069764404386906112[/tweet:23jxlz12]

Lefty Specialist
Dec 03 2018 06:46 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

For an organization often castigated as being cheap, paying $100 million to a 36-year old seems to be a waste of resources. I mean, if you're going to pay $20 million to Robinson Cano, you'd be better off paying $30 million to either Harper or Machado, no?

Nymr83
Dec 04 2018 05:45 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Yup.

Centerfield
Dec 04 2018 08:00 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Lefty Specialist wrote:
For an organization often castigated as being cheap, paying $100 million to a 36-year old seems to be a waste of resources. I mean, if you're going to pay $20 million to Robinson Cano, you'd be better off paying $30 million to either Harper or Machado, no?


Absolutely.

I'm often criticized for harping on money. Some say it's not relevant. Others point to teams with big payrolls that are not successful. Or they say dumb things like "There's no point in spending just for spending."

Let me be clear, this is exactly the opposite of what I recommend. I recommend spending wisely, and committing $100 million to a 36 year old PED user is not spending money wisely.

I remember last winter, some of the garbage spouted by Sandy was how the Mets had spent more than other teams. You can see how wise those moves were now, when we have to give up prospects to unload those contracts.

Make no mistake of the fact that we will eventually be looking to unload the Cano contract. We'll have to eat a significant portion of it, and we may have to give up a prospect. The no-trade will make it even harder. And I can tell you, we're not getting a prospect like Kelenic back when we move him.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 04 2018 08:05 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

I agree with the above. Cano's contract is almost certain to be a burden in those last couple of years. I guess it's possible that $20 million (the amount the Mets will be on the hook for) won't seem like so much in 2023, but it's hard to imagine that Cano will be worth it even if there's salary inflation.

My guess is that the Mets will end up paying him about half of that amount, if not more, to DH for an American League team.

A Boy Named Seo
Dec 04 2018 08:37 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Now that we know the Mets are taking on $100M in salary obligations to Cano, it seems they could have signed Brian Dozier as your Cano prototype for around 1 year, $10M and still signed two closery guys (Familia, Andrew Miller, David Robertson, Ottavino whoever) for about 3 years/$30M each, $80M total in new salary obligations. They'd still have Bruce (and Swarzak) to deal with, but those guys are hardly immovable like Cano will no doubt be. Edwin Diaz better be as awesome as advertised cause this move is still a head-scratcher to me.

The Mets had zero (zero!) dollars committed to anyone after 2020! This is amazing to me. There are infinite number of ways they could have contracted the team. Now for the years 2021, 2022 and 2023, they'll start their budget forecasting with a big, fat $20M already allocated to Mr. Cano. Just a baffling way to hamstring your finances when the Mets could have been the most flexible team in MLB salary-wise going into those years.

A Boy Named Seo
Dec 04 2018 09:00 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 04 2018 09:06 AM

Press conference apparently on NOW!!!!

Edit: it hasn't started yet. It's just looping a 1-minute trailer for the guys, hyping the upcoming blockbuster summer hit.

bmfc1
Dec 04 2018 09:05 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Live on Facebook via the SNY feed.

metirish
Dec 04 2018 09:36 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

BVW is very comfortable in front of the cameras , very smooth

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 04 2018 09:38 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

I suspect that's a big part of why he got hired. Why pick a nerd like Chaim Bloom when you can have Don Draper?

Vic Sage
Dec 04 2018 09:55 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 04 2018 10:02 AM

i haven't said anything in this thread because i was hoping it was all just a horrible dream. But i just listened to parts of the press conference, so i guess it has happened.

I hated Cano when he was a MFY. I hated him as a Mariner. I hate him now. He's a low-effort guy with a history of late nights. He's getting heavier and slower and, without the `roids, his late 30s won't be pretty. And we're now stuck holding the $100m bag for him.

Sure, you can look at it as a Bruce+Swarzak/Cano+20m deal, and a Jelenic+Dunn+Bautista/Diaz deal, but both deals suck. I have no faith in Cano being significantly more useful than Bruce + Swarzak over the next 2 years, and then it seems likely he'll be a net negative in years 3-5, at $20m/year. Diaz is young and productive and will be relatively inexpensive overall (even including his arb years) but, as a RP, his production has a great degree of volatility. I am loathe to give up on a CF prospect with all-star potential (not to mention a promising pitching prospect to boot) for anybody except another everyday player that fills a need, much less a guy who is going to throw 60IP/year. Sure, prospects are prospects, not players, but he was a #6 overall pick just last year and every indicator is pointing up on this kid. Considering the number of decent BP arms on the market right now, this is a massive overpay, even to me, the former president of TITTS.

BVW has pushed his chips in the middle of the table but he's still a few chips short, so lets see if Jeffie buys him another stack.

G-Fafif
Dec 04 2018 10:00 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Van Wagenen's insistence that the Mets would be "relentless and fearless" echoed Nuke LaLoosh's interpretation of Crash Davis's advice that once Nuke got to the bigs, he must remember to show "fear and ignorance".

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 04 2018 11:39 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

New York Mets executive Jeff Wilpon said the team aggressively pushed to acquire Edwin Diaz in part to "block" the rival Philadelphia Phillies from trading for the All-Star closer.


Wilpon told reporters Tuesday that the Mets believed that if they failed to agree on a deal with the Mariners, Seattle would ultimately trade Diaz to Philadelphia.


Jeff Wilpon: Mets wanted to 'block' rival Phillies from All-Star closer Edwin Diaz

Psst! Jeff! The Phillies are also interested in Bryce and Manny!

Frayed Knot
Dec 04 2018 12:55 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Getting a player for the purpose of preventing another team from getting that player is usually a really bad idea.

HahnSolo
Dec 04 2018 01:05 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Yeah I think Jeff believes he's showing that the Mets aren't to be messed with, but in reality it sounds kind of desperate. And I'd say that might explain why the return to Seattle was pricier than many (myself included) thought it should have been.

Ann Richards quote on W kind of applies to Jeff whenever he speaks: "born with a silver foot in his mouth."

batmagadanleadoff
Dec 04 2018 01:16 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

What's the point of trying to figure Jeff out? He's a fucking idiot.

G-Fafif
Dec 04 2018 01:24 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

HahnSolo wrote:
Ann Richards quote on W kind of applies to Jeff whenever he speaks: "born with a silver foot in his mouth."


Richards said it about the elder Bush (George HW, not Prescott). Jim Hightower's appraisal that Bush was born on third and thought he hit a triple would also apply here.

Centerfield
Dec 04 2018 01:47 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

HahnSolo wrote:
Yeah I think Jeff believes he's showing that the Mets aren't to be messed with, but in reality it sounds kind of desperate. And I'd say that might explain why the return to Seattle was pricier than many (myself included) thought it should have been.

Ann Richards quote on W kind of applies to Jeff whenever he speaks: "born with a silver foot in his mouth."


I didn't watch the press conference, but the articles look like there are a lot of Jeff quotes.

So I guess we are not even pretending that Jeff is not involved anymore right?

Basically Jeff Wilpon is our GM, and Brodie is his spokesman.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 04 2018 01:49 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Centerfield wrote:
Basically Jeff Wilpon is our GM, and Brodie is his spokesman.


I doubt that that's the case. More likely it's that Jeff wants to share in the glory of the moment, and since he's there, he's going to get questions directed at him.

Edgy MD
Dec 04 2018 02:22 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Phillies Owner John Middleton: "We're going into this expecting to spend money. And maybe even be a little bit stupid about it. We just prefer not to be completely stupid."

Jeff Wilpon: "Hold my beer."

d'Kong76
Dec 04 2018 02:32 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Jeff Wilpon: "Hold my beer."

More likely, hold my pinot grigio spritzer... but, yeah...

smg58
Dec 04 2018 03:25 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

The Phillies’ deal for Segura was perfectly reasonable in comparison, especially since they moved Santana’s contract in the process. And they let the Nationals — who, last I checked, were also division rivals of the Phillies — outbid then on Corbin. Nothing stupid yet. From them, at least.

Centerfield
Dec 04 2018 04:19 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

New York Mets executive Jeff Wilpon said the team aggressively pushed to acquire Edwin Diaz in part to "block" the rival Philadelphia Phillies from trading for the All-Star closer.


Wilpon told reporters Tuesday that the Mets believed that if they failed to agree on a deal with the Mariners, Seattle would ultimately trade Diaz to Philadelphia.


Jeff Wilpon: Mets wanted to 'block' rival Phillies from All-Star closer Edwin Diaz

Psst! Jeff! The Phillies are also interested in Bryce and Manny!


JW: No way we were going to let a closer with electric stuff like that go to the Phillies. TAKE THAT YOU CHEESESTEAK LICKING MUTHAFUCKAS!!!!!

Hey Jeff, what about future Hall of Famer Bryce Harper. Are you going to block that too?

JW: Nah I'm good.

Edgy MD
Dec 04 2018 07:53 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

The paradoxical logic would almost be worth it just to hear Jeff yell "CHEESESTEAK LICKING MUTHAFUCKAS!!!!!" at a public press conference.

Benjamin Grimm
Dec 07 2018 01:26 PM
Re: Can You Cano?

Andy Martino wrote:
It's probably too soon to say that there is momentum for a universal DH, but let's put it this way -- many folks in the game believe that the change will occur before Cano's contract expires.

The Mets surely know this, and while they acquired Cano with every intention to keep him at second base until further notice, it's possible they will have an appealing option for him as he nears 40.

smg58
Dec 08 2018 05:59 AM
Re: Can You Cano?

Of course, if Cano is not that good of a hitter by the end of his contract, why would sticking him at DH be an appealing option? (Assuming people still care about baseball once the current commissioner gets through ruining it, that is.)