Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

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Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

41Forever
Jan 19 2019 03:23 PM

Ballot Tracker has just under half the ballots and has Rivera, Halladay, Martinez and Mussina being inducted, with Schilling, Clemens and Bonds just falling short.

The inductees are being announced Jan. 22, so it's a shame that he's been able to collect just under half. Doesn't he usually get a larger percentage? My guess is that while some of the writers revel in their ballots and attracting attention for controversial selections or lack of selection, some this year are keeping their head low, fearing some kind of pushback. There was one writer who said he didn't want to vote for Rivera, so he's not voting at all this year, which is a cop out.

I don't think Rivera is going to be the first unanimous selection. Someone in those 200 remaining ballots isn't going to vote for him. I think we've seen in the past that when all the ballots are counted, the percentages drop a little bit, especially on the guys on the fence. I would not be surprised if Mussina drops below 75 percent and will probably get in next year. I think Martinez will make it, but his percentage will drop into the 80s.

Imagine if Schilling, Clemens and Bonds all go in next year. The most unpopular class ever?

Larry Walker has one more year of eligibility after this, and is within striking distance for next year. Todd Helton seems a little low. He might be one of those guys who slowly gains over a decade.

Mariano Rivera 100.0%

Roy Halladay 94.1%

Edgar Martinez 91.0%

Mike Mussina 82.4%

Curt Schilling 73.9%

Roger Clemens 72.9%

Barry Bonds 72.3%

Larry Walker 67.0%

Omar Vizquel 37.2%

Fred McGriff 36.7%

Manny Ramirez 26.1%

Scott Rolen 21.3%

Todd Helton 19.7%

Billy Wagner 16.0%

Jeff Kent 15.4%

Sammy Sosa 12.8%

Gary Sheffield 12.8%

Andruw Jones 9.0%

Andy Pettitte 6.4%

I'm always curious about the writers who only vote for one or two players. Their justification columns are usually pretty infuriating. Here's one from Paul Daugherty of the Cincinnati Enquirer, who buried his ballot at the end of a column on other things. He doesn't like designated hitters, and thinks Mussina and Halladay are similar, but voted for Halladay, in part, because he pitched more complete games.

MY HOF BALLOT IS IN THE MAIL. I voted for exactly two guys: Mariano Rivera and Roy Halladay.

This admission will provoke various reactions from the know-it-all stats brigade, none of them pleasant. Yeah? So?

i'm gonna write a whole TM column explaining myself. Suffice to say here that I am a bit of a grinch when it comes to the Hall, and I don't apologize for it. I don't vote for guys who were very good, because it's not the Hall of Very Good. Maybe baseball should open a new place for guys who are borderline. The HOVG would include Mike Mussina, Larry Walker, Gary Sheffield and Curt Schilling. A statue out front, for Fred McGriff.

Mussina likely will make the cut this year. I have no big issue with that, nor with the metrics employed in his defense. But here's the thing: Who feared Mike Mussina? What team of hitters went into a big September series saying, “Man, I'm glad we miss Mussina?''

There are numbers that suggest in some ways, Mussina was better than Bob Gibson. Which shows how easily maneuvered numbers can be.

To be a HOFer as a pitcher, you better have been the sheriff at high noon. Mussina wasn't. Besides, if he makes it, he'll go in with the 2nd-highest ERA of any pitcher in the Hall.

Folks like to cite that Mussina worked his whole career in the big-bat AL East. OK. He also worked for two teams (Orioles, Yankees) that were mostly successful. Did they not help him compile those numbers?

Halladay was Mussina with fewer years. Halladay won two Cys and threw a no-hitter in October. Remember? Halladay was a horse. Between 2006 and 2011, he never pitched fewer than 220 innings a year. He led the league in complete games seven times, five of them in a row.

What's a complete game, Doc?

Exactly.

He had eight in 2011. Since then, no pitcher has had more than six. In this era of “openers'' and 5-inning aces, that's big stuff.

I also didn't vote for Edgar Martinez. Longtime DHs don't get my vote.

The Newsday guys were pretty skimpy, too. David Lennon voted for three players, Steven Marcus for two. Lennon is pissed about Harold Baines getting in, and limited his ballot to Rivera, Clemens and Bonds as a result. Marcus voted for Rivera and Martinez and didn't discuss any of the other players in his column.

A guy from Forbes as a ballot, and I didn't even know Forbes covers sports. He voted for Hallady, Helton, McGriff, Rivera, and Gary Sheffield.

Rob Parker lost his Detroit News gig after controversial comments that were perceived as attacking the daughter of the Lions' coach. But he's still got a ballot, I guess because he has a radio show on I Heart Radio. He voted for five players: Bonds, Clemens, Rivera, Sheffield and Sammy Sosa, almost an all-juicer ballot. Somewhere Manny Ramierz must be pissed off.

Edgy MD
Jan 19 2019 11:07 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

I don't vote for guys who were very good, because it's not the Hall of Very Good.

...

But here's the thing: Who feared Mike Mussina?

While I'm sure SOME-body feared Mike Mussina, it's not the Hall of the Feared, either.

In fact, give me a Hall of the Very Good over a Hall of the Feared any day.

Frayed Knot
Jan 20 2019 06:57 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

I don't get all bent out of shape over how many votes guys cast. There's no 'correct' number and I can make a case for the extra stingy crowd as much as the extra generous ones.

=41Forever post_id=1429 time=1547936587 user_id=69]
A guy from Forbes as a ballot, and I didn't even know Forbes covers sports. He voted for Hallady, Helton, McGriff, Rivera, and Gary Sheffield.

Rob Parker lost his Detroit News gig after controversial comments that were perceived as attacking the daughter of the Lions' coach. But he's still got a ballot, I guess because he has a radio show on I Heart Radio. He voted for five players: Bonds, Clemens, Rivera, Sheffield and Sammy Sosa, almost an all-juicer ballot. Somewhere Manny Ramierz must be pissed off.

That said, Rob Parker's ballot is an embarrassment but that's to be expected as so is he.

First of all it shocks me that he ever covered baseball much less that he had done so for ten or more years which is (I think) the requirement to get a ballot. And that he's most recently, at least when he's not being canned for saying or writing stupid shit, been yakking his way via the dregs of talk TV/radio such as ESPN's 'First Take' or as a regular guest of the likes Colin Cowherd and Skip Bayless on FOX Sport's pollution of the airwaves means I know he doesn't get called upon to discuss the sport and likely hasn't even seen a baseball game in many years. Didn't they change the standards a few years back so as to take away votes from those who no longer cover the sport? After all, stupid ballots aren't just confined to old guys.

bmfc1
Jan 22 2019 04:21 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

"Mariano, we'll see you and most of New York, in Cooperstown." F U.

Frayed Knot
Jan 22 2019 04:27 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Rivera, Edgar, Halladay, and Mussina

And, yes, Rivera hit on all ballots.

A little surprised that Halladay went in first time, but I have no problem with any of the results.

Schilling was the highest non-electee and around 60%

ashie62
Jan 22 2019 04:29 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

So we got an MFY, a dope fiend and a DH. Woozer

Edgy MD
Jan 22 2019 05:29 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Amazing how, in a few short years, we've gone from a Hall electorate that resisted all but a very few relievers (and even the ones they elected, such as Wilhelm and Eckersley, spent good portions of their careers starting) to a reliever being the first unanimous electee.

nymr83
Jan 22 2019 06:19 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Frayed Knot wrote:

Rivera, Edgar, Halladay, and Mussina

And, yes, Rivera hit on all ballots.

A little surprised that Halladay went in first time, but I have no problem with any of the results.

Schilling was the highest non-electee and around 60%

Halladay definitely got in on the first ballot because he died in a plane crash. You are really splitting hairs to distinguish between him, Mussina, and Schilling.

McGriff's eligibility ran out, but he'l be one of those guys like Baines that the veterans committee puts in and we all shake our heads at the lowering of HOF standards (well, at least he'll better than Baines!)

and I wish they'd cut the crap with Bonds* already, if electric pool man is unanimous why are we even discussing steroids?

*but not Clemens, fuck the MFY!

MFS62
Jan 22 2019 07:03 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Would you elect the best H-O-R-S-E player to the basketball Hall of Fame?

Would you invite the Pitch and Putt (par 3) champion to the Masters?

Of course not, because they have not demonstrated their ability to perform other key elements of their sports.

And for that reason I believe a DH should not be in the Baseball Hall of Fame with the other players. Maybe in a separate wing.

Later

41Forever
Jan 22 2019 07:18 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Saw an interesting breakdown of the votes.

Bonds, Clemens and Schilling all had just over 70 percent of the ballots collected by the Ballot Tracker guys, and they collected about 55 percent of the ballots. But Bonds, Clemens and Schilling actually received just about 60 percent of the votes. So the people who kept their votes private in large numbers didn't vote for these guys. I wonder of that's because they feared a backlash of some kind, or if they are super old-school types who don't think they should have to share with readers/listeners/viewers how they voted.

Edgy MD
Jan 22 2019 07:35 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Edgar Martinez was not a HORSE player. He played 4605 innings at third and another 224 at first.

Nonetheless, I imagine the greatest HORSE player is in the Basketball Hall of Fame.

MFS62
Jan 22 2019 07:49 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

And he played 2055 games and had 8674 plate appearances. I translate that into about 8.5 innings per game.(more or less)

2055 X 8.5 = 17, 467 innings "played".

So, his 4605 + 224 = 4,829, or he played defense in 27.64% of his innings. And how bad must he have been that he wasn't asked to wear a glove more?

Maybe not a H-O-R-S-E, but maybe a Shetland pony.

Sounds like a neigh vote to me.(or was that a whinny?)

Later

Edgy MD
Jan 22 2019 08:14 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

And how bad must he have been that he wasn't asked to wear a glove more?

That's speculative. It was his manager's job to deploy him. It was his job to perform. And he did.

Even after docking him for not playing defense year after year, Fangraphs still credited him with 65.5 fWAR. That's comparable to a lot of non Hall-of-Famers, but it's also comparable to Tony Gwynn, Craig Biggio, Harmon Killebrew, and Tim Raines.

It's also comparable to a lot of non-Hall-of-Famers. But it's easy enough intellectually to discredit him for not playing more defense without having to judge him as part of an arbitrary class of players who will never be allowed.

What if a guy DH's for half his career and hits 1,000 homers? If you don't want to vote for the guy, don't. There's plenty of reason not to. But refusing consideration because he DH'd is way too easy for me. He didn't make the rule.

nymr83
Jan 22 2019 08:53 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

=41Forever post_id=1590 time=1548209921 user_id=69]
Saw an interesting breakdown of the votes.

Bonds, Clemens and Schilling all had just over 70 percent of the ballots collected by the Ballot Tracker guys, and they collected about 55 percent of the ballots. But Bonds, Clemens and Schilling actually received just about 60 percent of the votes. So the people who kept their votes private in large numbers didn't vote for these guys. I wonder of that's because they feared a backlash of some kind, or if they are super old-school types who don't think they should have to share with readers/listeners/viewers how they voted.

All ballots should be public, it is a GAME not a political election! if you aren't willing to take some scrutiny from the fans you shouldn't be voting!

Fman99
Jan 23 2019 04:10 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

I don't care about the percentages, that's just numerical jerking off (which is, trust me, only like the 93rd best type of jerking off, having reviewed many others). Whether you got 75.0% or 100% doesn't really matter except to bored sportswriters (and forum discussion panels).

I think it distracts from what is the bigger story, to me, which is Clemens and Bonds resurfacing as legitimately having a chance to get in to the HOF sometime soon, despite being very widely considered the pitcher and hitter most emblematic of using drugs to cheat.

Frayed Knot
Jan 23 2019 05:05 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

=Fman99 post_id=1607 time=1548241857 user_id=86]
I don't care about the percentages, that's just numerical jerking off (which is, trust me, only like the 93rd best type of jerking off, having reviewed many others). Whether you got 75.0% or 100% doesn't really matter except to bored sportswriters (and forum discussion panels).

Yup!

Some HoF player (forget who) said that he's never heard any HoF'er asked what percentage of votes got you in and no one ever talks about how many years it took one to get elected. Either in or you're not' there aren't 'tiers' at Cooperstown no matter how hard some fans/writers try to create them.

And now that the unanimous 'barrier' has been crashed it would be nice if the whole topic can be put to bed. And, no, Mariano was not the perfect person to be the first one, he just happens the first one multiple decades and multiple candidates after it should have happened.

Frayed Knot
Jan 23 2019 05:22 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Edgar Martinez career numbers vs his fellow 2019 HoF inductees: 42 for 112 including 10 doubles, 2 triples, 8 HRs, 9 walks (+ 2 IW) .375/.416/.714

41Forever
Jan 23 2019 06:16 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 23 2019 09:08 AM

Frayed Knot wrote:

=Fman99 post_id=1607 time=1548241857 user_id=86]
I don't care about the percentages, that's just numerical jerking off (which is, trust me, only like the 93rd best type of jerking off, having reviewed many others). Whether you got 75.0% or 100% doesn't really matter except to bored sportswriters (and forum discussion panels).

Yup!

Some HoF player (forget who) said that he's never heard any HoF'er asked what percentage of votes got you in and no one ever talks about how many years it took one to get elected. Either in or you're not' there aren't 'tiers' at Cooperstown no matter how hard some fans/writers try to create them.

And now that the unanimous 'barrier' has been crashed it would be nice if the whole topic can be put to bed. And, no, Mariano was not the perfect person to be the first one, he just happens the first one multiple decades and multiple candidates after it should have happened.

I was looking at the percentages in the context of whether or not they'd ever get in. There's a significant group of voters who don't appear to ever want to vote for the Bonds and Clemens -- and Schilling now, for different reasons -- and I thought it was curious that those are the voters who declined to make their ballots public.

MFS62
Jan 23 2019 07:00 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Edgy MD wrote:

And how bad must he have been that he wasn't asked to wear a glove more?

That's speculative. It was his manager's job to deploy him. It was his job to perform. And he did.

Even after docking him for not playing defense year after year, Fangraphs still credited him with 65.5 fWAR.

His career DWAR was -9.0. And that is for the (roughly) 27% of his potential innings played. That projects to -33.33 for a career, or a net WAR (65.5 - 33.33) of 32.17 if he had played in the field for his entire career.

Later

batmagadanleadoff
Jan 23 2019 07:23 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Edgy MD wrote:

And how bad must he have been that he wasn't asked to wear a glove more?

That's speculative. It was his manager's job to deploy him. It was his job to perform. And he did.

Even after docking him for not playing defense year after year, Fangraphs still credited him with 65.5 fWAR.

His career DWAR was -9.0. And that is for the (roughly) 27% of his potential innings played. That projects to -33.33 for a career, or a net WAR (65.5 - 33.33) of 32.17 if he had played in the field for his entire career.

Later

Oh. So now we're projecting? Because Martinez's full career isn't enough for you? We're supposed to evaluate HOF candidates on what they might've done? If Bud Harrelson played for 900 seasons, he'd project to having hit more HR's than Hank Aaron. Jesus H. Christ on a stick. Tbe DH has been around for almost half a century and EM is probably the greatest DH in baseball history. He didn't field? And Tom Seaver couldn't hit. (lifetime.154 BA). Fans are smart enough to make adjustments for position. EM's career fWAR is about the same as Gary Carter's. You think Carter would be in if he racked up his hitting stats as a left fielder. No. He'd be off the ballot in six minutes and you wouldn't ever again hear a peep about his HOf case. But fans are smart enough to adjust becaus they know that the position is so demanding that catchers wear down earlier. They'll make the same adjustment for DH as they've been making for catcher and shortstop and relief pitcher.

MFS62
Jan 23 2019 07:33 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 23 2019 07:41 AM

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=1621 time=1548253380 user_id=68]
[Tbe DH has been around for almost half a century and EM is probably the greatest DH in baseball history.

When the rule was first introduced 50 years ago, I thought of the implications to the record books of having player careers prolonged beyond when they would have retired before the rule was implemented, and sooner or later this would come up. I understand the distinction between a player whose numbers have declined over the years due to wear and tear versus a player who has their glove taken away because they just were terrible in the field.

You're right, Edgar was a great hitter. But IMO he wasn't a ballplayer. You want to put him in the Hall? Fine. But put him with players who spent more than 50 % of their time as a DH in their own wing.

Finally, I ask this question. When he was in his prime, after he was a full time DH, would you have wanted the Mets to acquire him?

Later

nymr83
Jan 23 2019 07:40 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

=MFS62 post_id=1623 time=1548254026 user_id=60]
=batmagadanleadoff post_id=1621 time=1548253380 user_id=68]
[Tbe DH has been around for almost half a century and EM is probably the greatest DH in baseball history.

When the rule was first introduced 50 years ago, I thought of the implications to the record books of having player careers prolonged beyond when they would have retired before the rule was implemented, and sooner or later this would come up. I understand the distinction between a player whose numbers have declined over the years due to wear and tear versus a player who has their glove taken away because they just were terrible in the field.

You want to put him in the Hall? Fine. But put him with players who spent more than 50 % of their time as a DH in their own wing.

Just my opinion.

Later

First we need a wing for all the not-up-to-par players put in over the years by various incarnations of the 'veterans committee'. Then we need a wing for old-timers whose stats suck and none of us can really figure out why they even got thought of. after that, we can create a relief pitcher wing - you think not fielding is an advantage? try not having to go through a lineup for a 2nd and 3rd time. Lastly, there should be a wing for the MFY - their fans must go in through a separate entrance and are not allowed to speak to the rest of us - and we won't have to smell them.

MFS62
Jan 23 2019 07:44 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

NYMR83, LOL!

You might not be too far from wrong, just like the have different exhibit rooms in the Museum of Natural History.

MFY Bleacher Creatures already have their own room. Its called the holding pen at Rikers.

Later

seawolf17
Jan 23 2019 07:55 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Like it or not, the DH is a rule. I have no qualms putting Edgar in, because he's absolutely worthy. Same with Ortiz when his time comes.

Halladay is a no-brainer to me.

Mussina? I guess. I'm not going to die on that hill.

Rivera, for all his faults (electrified pool joke!), is a no-brainer too. The *only* drawback to his election is insufferable MFY fans with the 100% thing. (Get over yourselves.)

nymr83
Jan 23 2019 08:13 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

=seawolf17 post_id=1628 time=1548255306 user_id=91]
Like it or not, the DH is a rule. I have no qualms putting Edgar in, because he's absolutely worthy. Same with Ortiz when his time comes.

Halladay is a no-brainer to me.

Mussina? I guess. I'm not going to die on that hill.

Rivera, for all his faults (electrified pool joke!), is a no-brainer too. The *only* drawback to his election is insufferable MFY fans with the 100% thing. (Get over yourselves.)

the 100% thing is kinda dumb, but also shows how dumb some of the writers are. I'd like to know who voted for Rivera but didn't vote for Griffey Jr only a few years ago? take their ballots away.

Centerfield
Jan 23 2019 08:16 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Yeah. It's annoying that the unanimous thing had to be a Yankee. But I guess it's better that it's Rivera instead of Jeter. I was hoping Griffey would have been the one to do it. Stupid writers.

It's silly that it took this long to get a unanimous vote. I said way back when that if a writer doesn't recognize that Rickey Henderson is a Hall of Famer, then he's too stupid to get a vote. And I think the only reason that a unanimous vote resulted is not because of the greatness of Rivera, but because vote shaming has become a thing.

I have to admit, I am legitimately jealous of Yankee fans when it comes to the Hall of Fame. Going to Cooperstown is a blast. Taking the kids, showing them the special exhibit for Mike Piazza. Taking them to see the plaques. Yankee fans will get to do that this year with Rivera and Mussina. They'll get that experience again with Jeter, and then A-Rod after that. It's a regular thing for them. My kids will experience it once during their childhood. And sure, I've heard the argument that doing it once makes it more special. It's bullshit. If something is great, you want to do it more than once.

Maybe someday with deGrom. I don't know. Can you make the Hall with 84 career wins and a 1.89 ERA?

batmagadanleadoff
Jan 23 2019 08:27 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

=Centerfield post_id=1635 time=1548256573 user_id=65]

Maybe someday with deGrom. I don't know. Can you make the Hall with 84 career wins and a 1.89 ERA?

If deGrom's next five years are as good as his first five, he's a legit candidate..

seawolf17
Jan 23 2019 08:47 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

=nymr83 post_id=1634 time=1548256380 user_id=54]the 100% thing is kinda dumb, but also shows how dumb some of the writers are. I'd like to know who voted for Rivera but didn't vote for Griffey Jr only a few years ago? take their ballots away.

Seriously.

metsmarathon
Jan 23 2019 10:50 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

looking forward, 2021 is going to be the opportunity to maybe possibly clear the board of some of the backlog. the first year candidate list is headed by such luminaries as aramis ramirez, torii hunter, mark buehrle, and tim hudson. none of whom are hall of famers.

and after derek jeter, there's really also no 2020 guys who should merit much consideration, unless you have an unhealthy hankering for jason giambi, alfonso soriano, or bobby abreu.

seawolf17
Jan 23 2019 11:14 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

and after derek jeter, there's really also no 2020 guys who should merit much consideration, unless you have an unhealthy hankering for jason giambi, alfonso soriano, or bobby abreu.

The big pre-list from BR: https://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2020.shtml

Rk Name YoB

1 Curt Schilling 8th

2 Roger Clemens 8th

3 Barry Bonds 8th

4 Larry Walker 10th

5 Omar Vizquel 3rd

6 Manny Ramirez 4th

7 Jeff Kent 7th

8 Scott Rolen 3rd

9 Billy Wagner 5th

10 Todd Helton 2nd

11 Gary Sheffield 6th

12 Andy Pettitte 2nd

13 Sammy Sosa 8th

14 Andruw Jones 3rd

15 Derek Jeter 1st

16 Bobby Abreu 1st

17 Jason Giambi 1st

18 Cliff Lee 1st

19 Rafael Furcal 1st

20 Eric Chavez 1st

21 Josh Beckett 1st

22 Brian Roberts 1st

23 Alfonso Soriano 1st

24 Carlos Pena 1st

25 Paul Konerko 1st

26 Chone Figgins 1st

27 Marco Scutaro 1st

28 Brad Penny 1st

29 Raul Ibanez 1st

30 Jason Bartlett 1st

31 Adam Dunn 1st

32 Lyle Overbay 1st

33 J.J. Putz 1st

34 Ryan Ludwick 1st

35 Jose Valverde 1st

36 Alex Gonzalez 1st

37 Jamey Wright 1st

38 Joe Saunders 1st

39 Nate McLouth 1st

40 Heath Bell 1st

41 Kyle Farnsworth 1st

Not all of those guys will make the actual ballot, of course. But Cap'n Intangibles will get in, and the drumbeat will start to get really loud for the Bonds/Clemens contingent, as well as for Walker and Schilling.

nymr83
Jan 23 2019 11:22 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

i hope Schilling, Bonds, (not Clemens), Walker, Vizquel, Ramirez, Kent, Rolen, Wagner, 10 veterans committee guys, a few umpires, and Mr Met all get in too. anything to take the spotlight away from jeter.

wait for the articles that all these guys should "wait for next year" so as to give Saint Derek his solo enshrinement

metirish
Jan 23 2019 11:23 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

I was at the gym last night with two Yankees fans, one, Charlie is a die hard, as the voting came in he was thrilled that Moose made it...I started taking the piss saying how he was borderline etc....Charlie filliped out , like frothing at the mouth mad....really, if you are getting that upset then you know he is borderline , he starts screaming about how the Mets only have two HOF players...it was all rather funny.....

Gwreck
Jan 23 2019 11:30 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Each year these ballots come out, I am surprised to see Roger Clemens getting slightly more votes than Barry Bonds. It's happened every year (this year Clemens was only +2; it's ranged from +1 to +8).

I understand (even if I disagree) why voters omit both from their ballots. But I can find no legitimate basis to find one but not the other worthy.

Edgy MD
Jan 23 2019 11:37 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Edgy MD wrote:

And how bad must he have been that he wasn't asked to wear a glove more?

That's speculative. It was his manager's job to deploy him. It was his job to perform. And he did.

Even after docking him for not playing defense year after year, Fangraphs still credited him with 65.5 fWAR.

His career DWAR was -9.0. And that is for the (roughly) 27% of his potential innings played. That projects to -33.33 for a career, or a net WAR (65.5 - 33.33) of 32.17 if he had played in the field for his entire career.

Later

That 65.5 number is with defense factored in, which I thought was pretty clear. You're double-taxing him.

Edgy MD
Jan 23 2019 11:43 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

=Centerfield post_id=1635 time=1548256573 user_id=65]And I think the only reason that a unanimous vote resulted is not because of the greatness of Rivera, but because vote shaming has become a thing.

I think it's far more about the Hall scrubbing the electorate of fringe members of the BBWAA.

seawolf17
Jan 23 2019 11:48 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Let's take a look at the defense thing for a second.

He played third base, primarily, coming up. From 1990-92, he was their primary 3B. After some shortened seasons (on the DL, I'm assuming) by 1996, he was a full-time DH. In 1996, Russ Davis took over at third and was mostly, admittedly, terrible, but had some pop. By 2000, it was David Bell, and then Jeff Cirillo, both of whom were very good defensively, and even if you say he's too old to play 3B at that point because he's in his late 30s, well, John Olerud was at first. So he really was perfectly positioned.

Frayed Knot
Jan 23 2019 11:50 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

=Gwreck post_id=1659 time=1548268213 user_id=56]
Each year these ballots come out, I am surprised to see Roger Clemens getting slightly more votes than Barry Bonds. It's happened every year (this year Clemens was only +2; it's ranged from +1 to +8).

I understand (even if I disagree) why voters omit both from their ballots. But I can find no legitimate basis to find one but not the other worthy.

One explanation I've heard is that while Bonds (eventually/reluctantly/kinda/sorta) admitted to being a steroids user, there's no such 'proof' that's been hung onto Clemens.

nymr83
Jan 23 2019 11:58 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Frayed Knot wrote:

=Gwreck post_id=1659 time=1548268213 user_id=56]
Each year these ballots come out, I am surprised to see Roger Clemens getting slightly more votes than Barry Bonds. It's happened every year (this year Clemens was only +2; it's ranged from +1 to +8).

I understand (even if I disagree) why voters omit both from their ballots. But I can find no legitimate basis to find one but not the other worthy.

One explanation I've heard is that while Bonds (eventually/reluctantly/kinda/sorta) admitted to being a steroids user, there's no such 'proof' that's been hung onto Clemens.

Other factors: yankee-ness, media image, race, public perception that steroids help hitters more than pitchers

the vote is so close that its hard to pin to anything specific. could just be a handful of yankee-loving idiots.

41Forever
Jan 23 2019 12:29 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

=Gwreck post_id=1659 time=1548268213 user_id=56]
Each year these ballots come out, I am surprised to see Roger Clemens getting slightly more votes than Barry Bonds. It's happened every year (this year Clemens was only +2; it's ranged from +1 to +8).

I understand (even if I disagree) why voters omit both from their ballots. But I can find no legitimate basis to find one but not the other worthy.

If I recall, Bonds was famously difficult for reporters to deal with. While that shouldn't be a factor, I bet it is for a handful of guys.

Edgy MD
Jan 23 2019 01:03 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

I can make an argument for Bonds and not Clemens. If you accept the generally accepted timeline, that Clemens began juicing after leaving the Sox following a couple of pedestrian seasons, and Bonds began juicing in 1999 following jealousy ver the McGwire/Sosa charade, then Bonds is already a Hall of Famer before cheating, while Clemens is not quite.

I can't make an argument for Clemens and not Bonds — at least, not one I can pretend to get behind.

batmagadanleadoff
Jan 23 2019 01:11 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Edgy MD wrote:

I can make an argument for Bonds and not Clemens. If you accept the generally accepted timeline, that Clemens began juicing after leaving the Sox following a couple of pedestrian seasons, and Bonds began juicing in 1999 following jealousy ver the McGwire/Sosa charade, then Bonds is already a Hall of Famer before cheating, while Clemens is not quite.

I can't make an argument for Clemens and not Bonds — at least, not one I can pretend to get behind.

I dunno. If you take the view that taking steroids is essentially cheating, then you're saying that its OK to cheat once you've reached a certain level of achievement. What's next? Players with 500 career HR's are permitted to gamble on their own baseball games?

Edgy MD
Jan 23 2019 02:03 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Yeah, but that's not the view I'm taking. At least, not for the sake of the argument.

batmagadanleadoff
Jan 23 2019 02:10 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Edgy MD wrote:

Yeah, but that's not the view I'm taking....

Why not?

G-Fafif
Jan 23 2019 02:29 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 23 2019 05:08 PM

While Rivera broke the unanimity barrier, the writers must go one better in 2020 and elect Jeter not only unanimously but alone. Any ballot that has more than one check mark should be considered a desecration of true immortality and therefore marked invalid by the BBWAA. Baseball's most sacred star cannot be compared to peers, for he is peerless. Jeff Idelson, Jane Forbes Clark and the other Cooperstown decisionmakers need to inform previous Hall of Famers that they may be seated for the Captain's induction, but down in the audience, looking up at Derek -- the way a nation of baseball-loving fans always have and always will view him. Due respect to every living inductee from Aaron to Yount, but no one can share a stage with Derek Jeter. He is singular.

41Forever
Jan 23 2019 03:38 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

=G-Fafif post_id=1688 time=1548278951 user_id=55]
While Rivera broke the unanimity barrier, the writers must go one better in 2020 and elect Jeter not only unanimously but alone. Any ballot that has more than one check mark should be considered a desecration of true immortality and therefore marked invalid by the BBWAA. Baseball's most sacred star cannot be compared to peers, for he is peerless. Jeff Idelson, Jane Clark Forbes and the other Cooperstown decisionmakers need to inform previous Hall of Famers that they may be seated for the Captain's induction, but down in the audience, looking up at Derek -- the way a nation of baseball-loving fans always have and always will view him. Due respect to every living inductee from Aaron to Yount, but no one can share a stage with Derek Jeter. He is singular.

Bad ass. Brilliant!

Edgy MD
Jan 23 2019 04:36 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Andy Pettitte has already pledged to release his delegates so his 9.9% vote could be added to Derek Jeter's total and he can get more than 100%.

whippoorwill
Jan 23 2019 04:59 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Okay with all four, surprising Rivera is the first unanimous

MFS62
Jan 23 2019 06:46 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 24 2019 06:08 AM

Edgy MD wrote:

That 65.5 number is with defense factored in, which I thought was pretty clear. You're double-taxing him.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I still don't think he belongs.

But, me being me, I'd still want to see what would happen if they invite a pitch and putt champion to play in the Masters.

Later

41Forever
Jan 23 2019 07:44 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Edgy MD wrote:

Andy Pettitte has already pledged to release his delegates so his 9.9% vote could be added to Derek Jeter's total and he can get more than 100%.

The forum is on fire tonight!!! Nice!!

Lefty Specialist
Jan 24 2019 07:08 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Rivera was basically the best at his job of anybody in baseball over an 18-year period. I don't begrudge him the 100%. I won't be within 200 miles of Cooperstown next July, though.

seawolf17
Jan 24 2019 08:02 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Lefty Specialist wrote:

Rivera was basically the best at his job of anybody in baseball over an 18-year period. I don't begrudge him the 100%. I won't be within 200 miles of Cooperstown next July, though.

I'd say "me neither," but Rochester appears to be juuuust less than 200 miles from Cooperstown.

41Forever
Jan 24 2019 08:30 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Halladay's family requested tha this plaque not have a team logo on it. One columnist thinks none of the people enshrined moving forward should have a cap logo:

[url]https://mlb.nbcsports.com/2019/01/23/hall-of-fame-should-do-away-with-cap-logos-on-plaques/

stevejrogers
Jan 24 2019 03:30 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Lefty Specialist wrote:

Rivera was basically the best at his job of anybody in baseball over an 18-year period. I don't begrudge him the 100%. I won't be within 200 miles of Cooperstown next July, though.

I'd say "me neither," but Rochester appears to be juuuust less than 200 miles from Cooperstown.

Mets are in San Francisco that weekend.

Sounds like a good time for a Wolfies Family Trip to Northern California! ;)

Johnny Lunchbucket
Jan 24 2019 03:34 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Hey Rogers, vote in the Tabloid Derby!

Benjamin Grimm
Jan 24 2019 04:03 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote:

Hey Rogers, vote in the Tabloid Derby!

That may have backfired.

batmagadanleadoff
Jan 24 2019 04:37 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

Benjamin Grimm wrote:

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote:

Hey Rogers, vote in the Tabloid Derby!

That may have backfired.

I coulda told you that. He's an uplifter.

Johnny Lunchbucket
Jan 25 2019 04:46 AM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

I have Kompromat on Rogers

Frayed Knot
Jan 25 2019 05:06 PM
Re: Hall of Fame 2019 balloting

So Mussina has joined Roy Halladay -- not that he crashed a plane after hot-shotting around the Gulf of Mexico but that he, like Halladay's family, has chosen to go into the HoF with a logo-less hat.

He was an Oriole slightly longer than he was a Yank-me [10 seasons to 8; 147 wins to 123; 288 starts to 248] but he's opting for choice C 'None of the Above'

Not sure how things ended with him in Baltimore but since last week's vote Mussina is not coming off as being the most popular guy ever to ply his trade in da Bronx.

Part of it probably has to do with the obvious attention for Mariano, but Michael Kay, a few days ago, basically said Mussina was an ass (difficult in interviews) and, to boot, he doesn't even

deserve to be in the Hall. Also when Saint Derek penned a public congrats to Rivera after the vote he failed to even mention that Mussina was involved in the same vote.

And while none of this by itself proves that there's a serious club/player strain, I tend to think none of this kind of stuff happens in Yanqui-land without being part of a larger plan.

Sounds like somebody's not going to be thought of as a 'TY' and that wall/number status isn't in his future despite his Cooperstown status.