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USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

41Forever Feb 22 2019 10:11 AM

Interesting piece in USA Today. I think a strike would be a disaster. Some potential solutions here. And a couple Mets quoted. [url]https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/columnist/gabe-lacques/2019/02/22/mlb-collective-bargaining-agreement-strike/2948101002/

nymr83 Feb 22 2019 10:36 AM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

...t certainly makes it hard to find jobs when clubs don't wince at losing 100-plus games with a gaggle of minimum-wage performers. The Miami Marlins lost 98 games last season and in 2019 could have 16 players with less than two years of service time... The biggest problem the players should have is all the teams not trying to win as that suppresses payroll more than anything. The biggest problem is DEREK JETER.

metsmarathon Feb 22 2019 11:41 AM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

The more I think about it, the more it makes perfect sense that the first round draft pick should go to the best team that just missed the playoffs. Reward teams for trying to win, either with playoff spots or with good young players. Teams should not be punished for playing well, and players should not be punished for teams trying to win.

Centerfield Feb 22 2019 11:44 AM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

The easiest fix in the world.

Edgy MD Feb 22 2019 12:01 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

The easiest fix is to relegate the last-place teams. Everybody will have motivation to win across all six months of the season, and they'll be playing like gangbusters and signing everybody they can get their hands on right down to the wire. Baseball! Fun! Accountability! Free marketplace!

Benjamin Grimm Feb 22 2019 12:09 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

There's no way that that's an "easy" fix.

Centerfield Feb 22 2019 12:25 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

Agreed. In fact that might be the most difficult fix. But rearrange the draft. So simple.

A Boy Named Seo Feb 22 2019 12:32 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

Maybe not the easiest fix, but relegations would be the coolest. But practical changes like raising the minimum salary, letting players get to arbitration and free agency earlier also make sense (for the players). If you're not Bryce Harper, you get paid shit through pre-arb and arb, then then might get ignored for another guy getting paid shit when you finally hit FA. Maybe also a minimum salary floor, or requiring that all revenue sharing be re-invested in scouting, player development, or player acquisition (no personal debt, off-field expenses).

batmagadanleadoff Feb 22 2019 02:34 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

Oh c'mon already with relegation. Might as well talk about flying monkeys driving flying cars.

Centerfield Feb 22 2019 02:48 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

A Boy Named Seo wrote: But practical changes like raising the minimum salary, letting players get to arbitration and free agency earlier also make sense (for the players). If you're not Bryce Harper, you get paid shit through pre-arb and arb, then then might get ignored for another guy getting paid shit when you finally hit FA. Maybe also a minimum salary floor, or requiring that all revenue sharing be re-invested in scouting, player development, or player acquisition (no personal debt, off-field expenses). All of these should be on the table, and I believe they will be, for the next CBA. I wonder if the flipping of draft order is something that could get done even beforehand. Would the owners come out publicly against such an idea? It would be awful tough. "No, we'd like to continue to reward tanking." I don't know how realistic this is, but another idea is to make sure that the PA has some say in the appointment of the commissioner. Having the owners' stooge running the show isn't exactly great for the players. All this pace of play garbage. One thing never, ever mentioned is fewer commercials.

Edgy MD Feb 22 2019 02:51 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=3304 time=1550871264 user_id=68] Oh c'mon already with relegation. Might as well talk about flying monkeys driving flying cars.

Or Supreme Court packing!



OE: In fact, if you get your packed Supreme Court, all those Democratic Party-appointed judges might gang up to kill baseball's absurd anti-trust exemption, and I can get my relegation and promotion.

batmagadanleadoff Feb 22 2019 02:59 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

Edgy MD wrote: =batmagadanleadoff post_id=3304 time=1550871264 user_id=68] Oh c'mon already with relegation. Might as well talk about flying monkeys driving flying cars. Or Supreme Court packing! OE: In fact, if you get your packed Supreme Court, all those Democratic Party-appointed judges might gang up to kill baseball's absurd anti-trust exemption, and I can get my relegation and promotion.

Do you really believe that court-packing is as unrealistic as relegation is? I mean, nobody's talking or writing about relegation anywhere other than you.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 22 2019 03:03 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

Court-packing (or at least an attempt at it) is more likely because it only requires one President to give it a try, and not a fundamental restructuring of a major industry. But I think the politician most likely to do something like that is probably Donald Trump.

batmagadanleadoff Feb 22 2019 03:15 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Court-packing (or at least an attempt at it) is more likely because it only requires one President to give it a try, and not a fundamental restructuring of a major industry. But I think the politician most likely to do something like that is probably Donald Trump. I hope Trump does pack the court(s). The GOP wouldn't gain much as far as I'm concernced because they already have a reliable arch conservative majority. But it'll embolden Democrats to counter, especially the wimpy ones like Amy Klobuchar. OE: Not that Trump would be able to with the Dems taking back the House. He'd be able to after 2020 if he's reelected and the GOP takes back the House and holds the Senate. But in that scenario, he'd most likely replace RBG anyways.

Edgy MD Feb 22 2019 08:06 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=3310 time=1550872792 user_id=68] Do you really believe that court-packing is as unrealistic as relegation is? I mean, nobody's talking or writing about relegation anywhere other than you.

Not so. Really. And nothing's gonna be changed if you don't talk about it. So, when appropriate, I talk.



When talk of rewarding draft picks differently comes up, it all seems to miss the point. The whole idea of the draft is hateful bullshit, and no amount of tinkering can redeem it, and in fact only institutionalizes it's inevitability. But it's not inevitable at all, and baseball would be tons better without it.



With regard to relegation, why is it institutionalized that owners should be protected from their own failure? If you hate the owner as much as you seem to, then you should celebrate the notion that he shouldn't get to operate with this massive net — provided a cartel of wealthy dudes playing at competing with each other, but actually protecting and insuring each other's interests.

41Forever Feb 22 2019 09:55 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

On one hand, hearing players predicting a strike because they don't like a deal they themselves agreed to seems kind of weak. But I think the service time suppression is a legit issue. If the Blue Jays decide that Vlad Jr. needs some Triple-A "seasoning," yet he's suddenly well-seasoned by late April, that stinks to high heaven. If the careers of the middling guys are shorter because no one wants to pay them for their expensive, declining years, then it makes total sense to argue to move up the schedule for arbitration and free agency and raising the minimum salary.

smg58 Feb 23 2019 06:34 AM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

The league minimum hasn't been significantly adjusted for a very long time. That almost certainly has to change. If the analytics say that an aging veteran clearly on the downside of his career is no longer a good bet to outperform a player currently in AAA making the league minimum, and if what the analytics say is in fact true, don't get mad at the analytics. But if that extra money could be better spent elsewhere and instead the owners are using the analytics as an excuse to not spend it at all, the players have a reason to be angry. As long as there is some sort of minimum service time for free agent eligibility, teams will bend the rules. And I'm not sure how you avoid that, beyond signing lengthy contracts when you draft the player and eliminating team control without contracts entirely. I think there has to be some sort of salary floor in the league. The Pirates, who haven't seriously tried to contend since Barry Bonds left, are on track to shed $30M of payroll this season (down to $70M). And people think the length of the game is the reason fans aren't filling the seats? Singling out Jeter for not trying hard enough (or the Wilpons for that matter) overlooks a systemic issue.

batmagadanleadoff Feb 23 2019 07:32 AM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

=smg58 post_id=3325 time=1550928857 user_id=62] Singling out Jeter for not trying hard enough (or the Wilpons for that matter) overlooks a systemic issue.

Chicken or egg? The Mets play in the largest market in the world. If the Wilpons don't spend anywhere near the luxury tax, whaddya want from the Pirates?

duan Feb 23 2019 08:35 AM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

Can I ask something - Why does baseball have an anti-trust exemption? Why do any professional sports? I can imagine the logic when there was some broad concept of a team being part of a community, but is it really serving any purpose to allow hugely profitable organisations to be exempt from normal laws?

Johnny Lunchbucket Feb 23 2019 10:26 AM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

Goes back to a famous Supreme Court decision in a Federal League case in 1919, and the exemption has withstood years of more recent challenges. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-11/baseball-keeps-antitrust-exemption-as-high-court-rejects-appeals

Edgy MD Feb 23 2019 01:36 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

But no, it serves no interest, other than to protect the wealthy and powerful's right to more wealth and power.

Frayed Knot Feb 23 2019 03:18 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

Can I ask something - Why does baseball have an anti-trust exemption? Why do any professional sports? Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Goes back to a famous Supreme Court decision in a Federal League case in 1919, and the exemption has withstood years of more recent challenges. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-06-11/baseball-keeps-antitrust-exemption-as-high-court-rejects-appeals The 1919 case took the position that baseball was not a business but rather a sport. It is, of course, both so that decision is widely seen as an anomaly of law. When the 1972 SC decision of an appeal simply reaffirmed the 1919 one (based on nothing but nostalgia really - the opinion cited virtually no law at all except for the court's reluctance to overturn previous versions of itself) they went on to say that any further changes in the anti-trust exemption would need to come from Congress. Someone in Congress will every once in a while threaten to remove the exemption but little or nothing ever comes of it. In the movie CHARLIE WILSON'S WAR when Congressman Charlie was asked why Congress was sitting around doing nothing about Russian aggression in Afghanistan, his reply was "Habit mostly"*. I thing that applies is this case too. Most of the more egregious parts of the exemption -- namely the way they used to be able to treat their labor force -- have kind of been worn down over the years so the threats don't scare owners the way they used to anyway. The main part which does remain is the centralized control of franchises and territories but, even there, removing it wouldn't totally end control of franchises it would just make them tougher to enforce. The NFL, which does not have the same blanket protection so has been forced to get their exemptions (for the takeover of the AFL, single TV contract) on a case by case basis, was told in the Al Davis (Oakland Raiders) case that they Could deny him the right to move his franchise (to L.A.) they just had to do so with bylaws that were more reasonable than the ones they had on their books at the time [3/4 approval, no specific guidelines other than the whim of the other owners]. When that set off a chain of NFL franchise movements (along with the predictable holding up of cities for stadium fees) Commissioner Rozelle chose to claim (and often got his claims repeated as if fact) that his hands were tied by the court ruling without ever mentioning the part where it was suggested that the league simply update their criteria. What he was hoping for was to get enough cities/Congressmen pissed off if/when their teams left town that they'd break down and hand him the same sort of blanket A-T powers as MLB. That strategy didn't work but it's hardly crippled the league in the interim. * I suspect that line was more Aaron Sorkin than the actual Charlie Wilson, but you get the point

nymr83 Feb 23 2019 07:51 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=3326 time=1550932338 user_id=68] =smg58 post_id=3325 time=1550928857 user_id=62] Singling out Jeter for not trying hard enough (or the Wilpons for that matter) overlooks a systemic issue.

Chicken or egg? The Mets play in the largest market in the world. If the Wilpons don't spend anywhere near the luxury tax, whaddya want from the Pirates?


Singling out Jeter for criticism is ALWAYS worthwhile. You can go after the Wilpons next.

Frayed Knot Mar 10 2019 03:27 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

The Vladdy Jr. "conundrum" has been solved -- mainly by his pulled oblique which will keep him out for the next three weeks and, I suspect, might just be severe enough to keep him out until right about two weeks into the regular season. Of course that was going to happen anyway but at least now the Blue Jays won't look petty for doing so.

Frayed Knot Mar 27 2019 03:23 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

In addition to Alonso, Freddie Tatis Jr of the Padres and the ChiSox wunderkind Eloy Jiminez are both making their team's OD rosters and therefore will be accruing ML service time from the very beginning. In the case of Jiminez Chicago has already signed him to a L-T deal so his inclusion is less significant. In Alonso's case, he's going to be 31 y/o by the time he hits FA-gency (assuming current rules) and, as BVW pointed out, if he's good enough six years from now for this to matter then that's a first world problem. The Tatis/Padres situation is more surprising in that they're a small market team that's probably not going to win much this year anyway and that he only recently turned 20 y/o meaning they'll quite possibly be giving up a prime year on the back end. But I suppose if you're a franchise that's trying to sell tickets and are dumping money on the doorsteps of Hosmer & Machado in consecutive seasons, then you might as well go for it.

Edgy MD Mar 27 2019 03:34 PM Re: USA Today on labor strife, quoting Vargas, Frazier

=nymr83 post_id=3285 time=1550856977 user_id=54] ...t certainly makes it hard to find jobs when clubs don't wince at losing 100-plus games with a gaggle of minimum-wage performers. The Miami Marlins lost 98 games last season and in 2019 could have 16 players with less than two years of service time... The biggest problem the players should have is all the teams not trying to win as that suppresses payroll more than anything. The biggest problem is DEREK JETER.

But what consequence is there for not trying to win?



You devalue your franchise a little bit over time, but as long as you've got a monopoly on your marketplace, it may be a perfectly sound business strategy.



#RelegateJeter #EndReserveClauseNOW