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I woke up in like this morning

Johnny Dickshot Apr 04 2006 06:18 AM

I like Paul LoDuca. He shouldnta dropped the ball but did everything else right. Deception is perfectly acceptable in baseball, and the real screwup on that play was sending Sorryanus in the first place (not to mention Royce Clayton failing to remove the bat from the basepath). LoDuca: He's one of us.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 04 2006 06:24 AM

You beginnning to appreciate the advantages of having a catcher who plays gritty, competitive defense without a care for contact? Sometimes having that quality might win a game or two for you. Some day.

sharpie Apr 04 2006 06:59 AM

I've always been in Lo Duca's corner. Born in Brooklyn with a Brooklyn kind of name (even though he moved to Arizona when he was like, 2), what's not to like? He's not Mike Piazza, but I liked him better than the alternatives in Hernandez and Molina.

metirish Apr 04 2006 07:06 AM

No doubt that Lo Duca will become a fan fave, in the papers this morning he's getting described as "gritty and hard nosed",a " do all it takes to win" kinda player, and he's honest...on the Soriano play he said this.. ] "I'll be honest, I think Soriano's a real good player but with a chance to be second-and-third and no outs, you've got to know that's not a good play,"

Edgy DC Apr 04 2006 07:15 AM

Paciorek couldn't say enough about how foolish the head-first slide was there. He comes in with his spikes and the ball winds up in Bloomberg's lap.

Frayed Knot Apr 04 2006 08:59 AM

LoDuca to have a weekly spot on Joe Badabingo's show; Tuesdays at noon starting today.

KC Apr 04 2006 11:23 AM

BS: >>>You beginnning to appreciate the advantages of having a catcher who plays gritty, competitive defense without a care for contact?<<< Brightens my day when Bret takes a condescending tone with long-time posters. Personally, I'll take a player smart enough to get the out without reckless rough stuff that may not be needed and injury preventing. (and Piazza was fine defensive catcher sans his throwing arm for the Mets imo)

Bret Sabermetric Apr 04 2006 11:33 AM

KC PROTECTOR OF THE WEAK AND DEFENSELESS POSTERS wrote: (and Piazza was fine defensive catcher sans his throwing arm for the Mets imo) He never would have made that play, probably would not have tried. He would have given it the arm's-length swipe tag that he made famous. Just saying he was a good defensive catcher doesn't make him one, though you can try. He sucked eggs as a defensive catcher, as a team leader, as a baserunner and in many, many, many other ways. As you used to delight in reminding me, I used to assure you that the Mets never had a chance to win their division again with Piazza on the team. How'd that work out? If the Mets had Piazza catching yesterday, their record is now 0-1. Spin that.

Rotblatt Apr 04 2006 11:49 AM

In an alternate universe somewhere, Piazza DIDN'T run over Sal's puppy, Sal's handle is PIAZZAS#1FAN, and he posts endlessly about why Piazza is the greatest Met ever. What I wouldn't give to hear Sal & bizarro-Sal go head-to-head . . .

KC Apr 04 2006 11:50 AM

Speaking of spin, I'd hardly call Mr. Dickshot a weak and defenseless poster. It just seems that nearly everything you write is to remind us of how smart you are how dumb we are. I'm not the only person who has made this ob- servation.

Willets Point Apr 04 2006 11:51 AM

]If the Mets had Piazza catching yesterday, their record is now 0-1. Not true. Piazza homered yesterday so the Mets would win 4-3.

Elster88 Apr 04 2006 11:54 AM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="KC PROTECTOR OF THE WEAK AND DEFENSELESS POSTERS"](and Piazza was fine defensive catcher sans his throwing arm for the Mets imo) He never would have made that play, probably would not have tried. He would have given it the arm's-length swipe tag that he made famous. Just saying he was a good defensive catcher doesn't make him one, though you can try. He sucked eggs as a defensive catcher, as a team leader, as a baserunner and in many, many, many other ways. As you used to delight in reminding me, I used to assure you that the Mets never had a chance to win their division again with Piazza on the team. How'd that work out? If the Mets had Piazza catching yesterday, their record is now 0-1. Spin that. Spin that? Simple. You're wrong.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 04 2006 12:20 PM

KC wrote: Speaking of spin, I'd hardly call Mr. Dickshot a weak and defenseless poster. It just seems that nearly everything you write is to remind us of how smart you are how dumb we are. I'm not the only person who has made this ob- servation. Are you really so dumb you can't recognize sarcasm, or are you so belligerent you'll take any excuse to start a fight? Dickshot can defend himself if he thinks he needs defending, he doesn't need your capacious skirt to hide behind. (Isn't it getting kind of crowded with Edgy already hiding back there?) I think he has the sense to take my remark for what it was instead of looking to make a tedious argument out of every post I make. Who appointed you the fucking expert anyway on how my posts "seem"? Who fucking cares? Your posts have begun to seem lilke they were written by a douchebag with a infected pimple deep up his ass, but I usualy don't think that's worth reading about here, where we're supposedly discussing baseball. but I'll discuss the way your asinine posts "seem" to me if you really think that's what everyone's interested in reading about. Your call. Elster, I'm wrong? Maybe so. But no one has convinced me that Piazza was anything other than a weak defensive catcher far more generally than in the one quantifiable area, his throwing arm, which sucked so badly even his fans had to concede that point. He also sucked defensively protecting the dish, calling pitches, and was only so-so on bunts and pop flies. If you want to argue otherwise, do so. If all you want is to stick out your tongue and say "Mikey never sucked a single egg"---well, your tongue could get stuck like that, and then where would you be? It will be interesting to read what the Mets pitchers have to say in praise of Lo Duca's game-calling ability. Of course none of them have any interest in trashing Piazza, but if you listen closely to what they say, things like "Really knows how to call a game" or "understands each pitcher's stuff and gets in your face when you're throwing pitches that aren't breaking right" or "lets you know loud and clear when you're making poor decisions" will give you pretty good clues as to what was lacking in Piazza's pitch-calling, if you have any interest in learning.

KC Apr 04 2006 12:41 PM

I'm not being belligerent at all and generally you're the one who escalates even the smallest observations into something ten times what it actually was. You turned my saying one little thing into calling me dumb, getting a shot in on Edgemeister, saying I wear a skirt (and that I'm fat), call me tedious, a douchebag, pimple assed, and basically rip me a new asshole. Over what? Saying that you sounded condescending. You tell us all the time to get over ourselves? Uh, perhaps you're projecting.

metirish Apr 04 2006 01:00 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 04 2006 01:06 PM

Back to Lo Duca.....he's sponsored by a Rock Band at Baseball reference. http://www.baseball-reference.com/l/loducpa01.shtml how cool is that?

Bret Sabermetric Apr 04 2006 01:01 PM

No one needs defending against my condescension. If Edgy's too wussy to respond to my posts, then let him learn to tolerate my critiques of his wussiness. What are you, his handpuppet? Butt out, and let's talk baseball. If you prefer the style in which I express myself, I have some manuscripts here in need of editing. Do you think Lo Duca's a defensive improvement over Piazza? In case you think he's not, I pointed out that he rarely even tried to make that tag play at the plate. You're going to see a sharp defensive improvement at catcher this year, and I don't even think Lo Duca's at the top of his own game anymore. But at his worst, he's a professional catcher, the likes of which you haven't seen in a long time.

KC Apr 04 2006 01:07 PM

What does this have to with Edgy? Yes, let's get back to baseball and how you're smarter than we are about it. Sheesh, you're awfully sensitive for such a loud mouth.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 04 2006 02:31 PM

KC wrote: What does this have to with Edgy?. Your obsession wiht protecting people from the harshness of my posts, that's what. It's bad enough you're oversensitive to every post I make when it concerns you, but do you really have to get in my face when I condescend to other posters? Who elected you the condescension police? So I got a little snotty with Dickshot over a subject he and I have discussed before, contact at home plate? He didn't give a shit, and neither did the other posters who disregarded my throwaway line. Again, I was praising Lo Duca in a backhanded way, for his hard-nosed play, and you have to turn this into another "I Love Mikey" thread? Haven't we had enough of those the last decade? I'm not smarter than anyone else, I just don't break out into hives when reality intrudes on my daydreams. When I see a shitty looking baseball club, mismanaged and mis-selected, something stops me from saying "I think this looks like a terrific squad of playoff-bound immortals." Maybe it's just having been dropped on my head as a child.

KC Apr 04 2006 02:49 PM

Yes, we've all discussed contact at home plate with you. Your constant mischaracterization of what goes on here is a joke. I barely have any communication with Edgy off-board and I assure you when we do we have better things to talk about than you (back to get over yourself). Re last post: I'm not obsessed with anything more than a baseball team, you're over- senstive yet call me so, I didn't get in your face, I didn't say you were snotty, no one turned it into a Love Mikey thread, you're the one constantly belittling people here, and you severely mis-read the posters on this forum if you think they all say all this squad is a terrific playoff bounds group of immortals. Just because you type shit doesn't make it so. You change directions five times a thread as it suits your fancy and it's transparent and annoying.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 04 2006 04:57 PM

KC wrote: Yes, we've all discussed contact at home plate with you. Your constant mischaracterization of what goes on here is a joke. I barely have any communication with Edgy off-board and I assure you when we do we have better things to talk about than you (back to get over yourself). Re last post: I'm not obsessed with anything more than a baseball team, you're over- senstive yet call me so, I didn't get in your face, I didn't say you were snotty, no one turned it into a Love Mikey thread, you're the one constantly belittling people here, and you severely mis-read the posters on this forum if you think they all say all this squad is a terrific playoff bounds group of immortals. Just because you type shit doesn't make it so. You change directions five times a thread as it suits your fancy and it's transparent and annoying. Your illiteracy is a barrier to communication. You didn't say I was snotty- but you did say I was condescending. If you need me to explain how the one is a colloquialism for the other, I;ll need to charge you my hourly rate. I also didn't say you were in any sort of communication with Edgy, so I have no idea what you're rattling on about there either. You're totally not transparent but you;re still annoying. I'm so fucking disgusted with you and wasting my time like this that I feel like taking a break from posting here, but I think you'll just conclude you drove me out, so I'm going to force myself to stick around because you don't deserve to pat yourself on the back over your clever strategy of being a non-stop dick. I really wish you'd take this crap over to the Red Light forum instead of crapping in Dickshot's thread (and blaming it on me) but the rules don;t apply to you, so you leave me with the options of answering you here or leaving your nasty personal attacks unanswered, neither of which I like to do. I don;t understand what you get out of trainwrecking thread after thread, but it doesn't seem like you know how to stop. Why not ignore me completely? It's a wonderful strategy, and it's working out so well for your fellow admin.

Zvon Apr 04 2006 05:05 PM

So bret and KC- ....that was a real kool deek he pulled on that ump tho, wasnt it?

KC Apr 04 2006 05:25 PM

Mind your own business, 'von. >>>Your illiteracy is a barrier to communication.<<< As is your table turning manipulative use of the English language. >>>I'm so fucking disgusted with you<<< It amazes me how nasty you get. The abuse ratio in this thread is like 15-1 for you - but I disgust you?. Might I remind you that all I said was that you were being condescending. Ooooooooooo, four killer sylables. I don't plan on ignoring anyone or anything that goes on here any time soon, and I'm not trying to drive you out. You wouldn't be posting here if it wasn't for me. We'll see what that disclosure does for my approval rating.

Rockin' Doc Apr 04 2006 07:04 PM

Rotblatt - "In an alternate universe somewhere, Piazza DIDN'T run over Sal's puppy, Sal's handle is PIAZZAS#1FAN, and he posts endlessly about why Piazza is the greatest Met ever. What I wouldn't give to hear Sal & bizarro-Sal go head-to-head . . ." Rotblatt, too bad you weren't around to witness Ms. Met and doc g (Sal) go at it on the old MOFO. She was Piazza's number one fan and "the defender of all catchers". Sal, well he was the bane of her existense and argued extensively with her on a multitude of topics. She seemed to infuriate Sal with her persistance and circular logic that generally ended with her stating her belief while affirming her right to her opinion as she played the victim card. Sometimes, I think Sal misses his adversary of old.

Elster88 Apr 04 2006 07:15 PM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Elster, I'm wrong? Maybe so. But no one has convinced me that Piazza was anything other than a weak defensive catcher far more generally than in the one quantifiable area, his throwing arm, which sucked so badly even his fans had to concede that point. He also sucked defensively protecting the dish, calling pitches, and was only so-so on bunts and pop flies. If you want to argue otherwise, do so. If all you want is to stick out your tongue and say "Mikey never sucked a single egg"---well, your tongue could get stuck like that, and then where would you be? My "tongue sticking out" defense of Piazza's catching ability is very similar to your "tongue sticking out" attack on Piazza's catching ability. It has been well-documented here and in other places that Piazza was an above average defender at everything related to catching except throwing out base stealers. I don't want to have that same discussion for the 1,000th time. The only reason I responded was because it's very annoying that praise of our new catcher is immediately used as a reason to drop a (very) thinly-veiled insult against our old catcher. Lots of topics have provided you with the same excuse. Why do it again?

Bret Sabermetric Apr 04 2006 08:00 PM

Elster88 wrote: [Piazza was an above average defender at everything related to catching except throwing out base stealers. All you'll have to do, as I said, is read between the lines when Mets pitchers discuss Lo Duca's skills as a catcher this season, and if you're willing to see, you'll see what they thought of Piazza's defense. I don't expect you'll be convinced but I'll take comfort from it. It's amazing that you still think Piazza was a good catcher. If he was even an average catcher, there would have been no reason at all for the Mets not to have signed him again this year, and I would have endorsed the move, but he isn't, and they didn't, so I didn;t have to. But your opinion identifies you as stubbornly deluded, and I'll preserve it as Exhibit A if anyone tries to claim that I;'ve overstated the degree of denial around here. Let's try some elementary logic: Is Lo Duca an improvement defensively over Piazza? Is he a big improvement? Yes and yes. Does Lo Duca have a prayer of winning a Gold Glove this season? No. Final Question: does this make Piazza anywhere near average?

Elster88 Apr 04 2006 08:05 PM

Like I said, I don't want to get into it again. My question remains: Why bring it up again? Your feelings are well known.

metirish Apr 04 2006 08:13 PM

Ok I had to use this.....

Elster88 Apr 04 2006 08:14 PM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="Elster88"][Piazza was an above average defender at everything related to catching except throwing out base stealers. All you'll have to do, as I said, is read between the lines when Mets pitchers discuss Lo Duca's skills as a catcher this season, and if you're willing to see, you'll see what they thought of Piazza's defense. From what I've seen, your ability at "reading between the lines" leaves a lot to be desired.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 04 2006 08:29 PM

Elster88 wrote: Like I said, I don't want to get into it again. My question remains: Why bring it up again? Your feelings are well known. Because Lo Duca made a good play the other day I haven't seen very much in the last decade. Instead of going with the Lo Duca compliment (in contrast with the implicit comparison) this thread got hijacked into a whole Piazza-defense thing. I certainly wasn;t going to make it into a Piazza thread, which wasn't even the main point of my post about Lo Duca. If my views are so well known, and I repeat myself so much, you';d think you'd just roll your eyes and limit the damage. But you can't let it go, can you? "Bret says smack about my man, I'm going to get into his ugly face, and bring up stuff he wrote elsewhere, years ago, and make up stuff he never said."--a winning strategy if ever I heard one. All I'm really saying is watch Lo Duca behind the plate and see what a real catcher looks like. Couple that realization with the understanding that Lo Duca probably hit his defensive peak two or three years ago, and he was never the greatest catcher in the game anyway, and when you're done, I think you'll understand something of Piazza's defensive prowess, if you;re willing to see it. If you're not (and I think at this point that's a safe assumption), you'll never see it, and you'll keep trashing me for pointing it out. I can live with it just fine, but you;ve said your piece about 1000 times already and you haven';t introduced a shred of evidence to back it up, so it gets tiresome.

soupcan Apr 04 2006 08:44 PM

="Bret Sabermetric"]All you'll have to do, as I said, is read between the lines when Mets pitchers discuss Lo Duca's skills as a catcher this season, and if you're willing to see, you'll see what they thought of Piazza's defense. I don't expect you'll be convinced but I'll take comfort from it. It's amazing that you still think Piazza was a good catcher. If he was even an average catcher, there would have been no reason at all for the Mets not to have signed him again this year, and I would have endorsed the move, but he isn't, and they didn't, so I didn;t have to. But your opinion identifies you as stubbornly deluded, and I'll preserve it as Exhibit A if anyone tries to claim that I;'ve overstated the degree of denial around here. Ah what the hell - I'll jump in. How can you be so sure that that when the pitchers are talking about LoDuca that there are in fact things to read inbetween those lines? Can't they just like him without disliking Piazza or are these ideas not mutually exclusive of one another? Now maybe you are right, maybe they never wanted to criticize Piazza because, well, he was Piazza and maybe they think that LoDuca is just a much, much, much, much, much better catcher in every single way. But you don't know that. You can opine and that's fine (I'm a poet and I know it), but we all know what happens when we assume don't we? And why is it wrong to simply believe that the Mets didn't want to invest another year and $$$ in an aging catcher who seemed as if he was starting to break down physically? Perhaps they weighed their options and thought 'Yes Piazza is fine defensively and calls a satisfactory game but he is getting older and is getting hurt more. He's not as consistent a hitter and can't throw anybody out. His contract is up why don't we just let him go and start fresh?' Why is this so unbelievable? I understand your point but you are pounding it home as if its the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth and all you have is your belief that he couldn't stop a 15 mph tumbleweed rolling lazily towards him coupled with your inbetween the lines theory. Give me something more concrete and maybe I'll come over to the dark side but until you've got Tom Glavine on a tape recorder telling me that Mikey P. had hands like a spaghetti strainer I'm not buying what your selling . ="Bret Sabermetric"] Let's try some elementary logic: Is Lo Duca an improvement defensively over Piazza? Yes. ="Bret Sabermetric"] Is he a big improvement? He's an improvement. ="Bret Sabermetric"]Does Lo Duca have a prayer of winning a Gold Glove this season? A guy has to win a gold glove to be considered 'above average'? ="Bret Sabermetric"]Final Question: does this make Piazza anywhere near average? I've never heard anyone, anywhere, besides you, deride Piazza's defensive ability so much. We know the guy can't throw but after years of watching him I think I would've noticed an overabundance of passed balls and a tendency to get out of the way of runners barreling down on him. I didn't. Take away his noodle arm and yeah, I think Piazza is an average defensive catcher.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 04 2006 08:55 PM

KC wrote: Personally, I'll take a player smart enough to get the out without reckless rough stuff Sounds like you're implying Lo Duca is dumb. [Just imagine I'm doing a lot of very funny stuff, mimicing your defense of Mikey, in a mock-outraged defense of Lo Duca's intelligence here. Imagine it goes on and on and gets all tedious and pointless eventually, and I make up shit you never said just for fun.] Hey, when you said that I owe my being allowed to post here to you, did that mean that Edgy wants to ban me? Can we see the secret transcripts of your conversations (that don't exist, of course) about banning me from this site? Or did you mean something else? Sometimes it's hard to decipher your posts since they lack that quality known to most as "comprehensibilty" and known to you as "manipulative use of the English language." I could try using French, if that will help. My Spanish is kind of rusty. If I get banned, could you slap a banner across the front page explaining how you don't want any criticism of the Mets players or organization being brought up here, though? That will scare off future Met-haters and manipulators of any Indo-European language.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 04 2006 09:09 PM

soupcan wrote: ="Bret Sabermetric"]"]Does Lo Duca have a prayer of winning a Gold Glove this season? A guy has to win a gold glove to be considered 'above average'? Of course not. But Lo Duca is, I don;t know, the fourth or fifth best defesnive catcher in the league. No prayer of winning a Gold Glove or anything, but he's clearly better than average. If there weren';t a huge difference between LoDuca and Piazaz defensively, it wouldn't make a shred of sense to dump Piazza, who's clearly still better offensively than Lo Duca. But even the Mets, who've twisted themselves into pretzels excusing Piazza's defense, couldn;t do that. Does that tell you nothing? Proof isn;t forthcoming from either side in this discussion, which should be a comfort to those committed to hanging on to their opinions. Mets who actually say damaging things about ex-teammates, or the organization (see Mientkiewicz) are characterized as malcontents with agendas, so "proof" tend to be taken as meaningless by those who prefer to do so. If I somehow got Glavine to say damaging stuff about Piazza, you'd find some way to spin it as irrelevant or misquoted or kidding around because you don't want to accept it. That's cool. Think what you like. I don;'t have to agree with it, do I? You're the guy who never saw Piazza shy away from contact at home plate--if you don;t believe your eyes, or don't believe KC's claim to prefer catchers who through their supreme intelligence avoid risking injury, what could my words possibly tell you?

Zvon Apr 04 2006 09:16 PM

KC wrote: Mind your own business, 'von. lmao,....okeedoke.

Elster88 Apr 04 2006 09:17 PM Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Apr 04 2006 09:35 PM

="Bret Sabermetric"] ="Elster88"]Like I said, I don't want to get into it again. My question remains: Why bring it up again? Your feelings are well known. I certainly wasn;t going to make it into a Piazza thread, Yes you did. ="Bret Sabermetric"]which wasn't even the main point of my post about Lo Duca. Yes it was. ]you;ve said your piece about 1000 times already and you haven';t introduced a shred of evidence to back it up, so it gets tiresome. As opposed to your hard evidence: "read between the lines when Mets pitchers discuss Lo Duca's skills as a catcher this season, and if you're willing to see, you'll see what they thought of Piazza's defense". This is what you call evidence? A second point: What I say is tiresome???? Are you insane? ____________________________ Seriously what was the point of your first post? You said this >>"You beginnning to appreciate the advantages of having a catcher who plays gritty, competitive defense without a care for contact? Sometimes having that quality might win a game or two for you." So were you really wondering if JD was just now learning how to appreciate "gritty, competitive defense"? No, you were taking a shot at Piazza. To argue otherwise is to be full of shit. Are you full of shit? If you aren't, then congratulations on fooling 95% of the people here into thinking you are.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 04 2006 09:30 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 04 2006 09:38 PM

Piazza was implied. To cite Lo Duca for knowing what he was doing behind the dish without acknowledging that such knowledge was lacking for the last few years would be hypocritical, and blind. Which would be perfectly consistent with the rah-rah crap around this place. When you have an awkward unskilled catcher in a Mets uni, go on about how defense is overrated and our guy is pretty damned good anyway because it's hard to prove that he sucks though everyone can see it with their own lying eyes. But when you get a skilled catcher in a Mets uni, suddenly you're full of praise for his defensive skills, the ones that werent important, and were hard to see, and harder to measure, and unprovable in the past. Hey, if you want to root for the friggen laundry, be my guest. But let me out that such analysis is heavily biased towards the laundry and isn;t really saying much about the baseball player wearing it. Are you saying much besides "I like the Mets' catcher, whatever his name is, and will find something to praise"? Is this really worth reading? If you can recognize that Lo Duca is a good catcher, you have to recognize that Piazza is a bad one, if you're being remotely honest, or analytical, or objective, three qualities I don;t see much of here. We all saw the HRs and the doubles and oohed and ahhed. But I also saw the arm's length tags at home plate for years and years, that let dozens (maybe hundreds) of opposing runners score who might have been tagged out. God only knows how many pitchers would have thrown better if Piazza's personality had been one inclined to challenge them. He was soft, and I think it cost the team a lot. He conned people into valuing him way above his actual contribution, which is still going on today.

Rotblatt Apr 04 2006 09:30 PM

I shouldn't do this, but like Soup says, what the hell? Here's data for you, Sal. You may have seen most or all of this in the past--I'm not sure what I've seen on CPF or what I've found elsewhere. Basestealing Piazza sucks. He cost us [url=http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/bp/1202793.html]18 runs[/url] between 1998 & 2001. I'm sure he's declined since then. Calling games [url=http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=432]This study[/url] is from 2000. Basically, it finds that "catchers do not have significant differences among their game-calling abilities." Now, lest someone call that a cop-out, Piazza led the league in CERA (the metric they designed to measure the ability of play-calling) in 2006, and did NOT crack their bottom 10 Career Catchers--although he also didn't crack their top 10 Career Catchers. Basically, if there's an ability to call games, Piazza's probably in the middle third according to this study. Blocking balls According to [url=http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/quantifying-catcher-defense-and-other-stuff-like-that]this study[/url] from HT, he was neither in the top 10 nor the bottom 10 in 2005. Again, call it the middle third. If anyone's got any other articles to point to, I'd be interested. I should reference some of the other BP findings, which basically call the defensive impact of a catcher negligible: ]However, if we believe the results from this study, namely that catchers do not have significant differences among their game-calling abilities, the implications are staggering. First of all, the much-maligned stats we’ve been using for years to evaluate catchers--runners thrown out and passed balls, might actually quantify their defensive value. Furthermore, the relative unimportance of the running game could prompt teams to shift better offensive players to catcher without hurting the team’s defense. You open up another position on the field besides first base for prospects who don’t have the reflexes to play the infield, nor the speed or instincts to play the outfield. The positional is still physically demanding to play, but you could potential keep two dynamite offensive players in the lineup--say Mike Piazza and Frank Thomas, but swapping them between C and 1B so neither gets overworked behind the plate. Far from being the position with the lowest expected offense, it could flip to the other side of the defensive spectrum entirely, and become a place to hide a slow-footed slugger.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 04 2006 09:49 PM

If that's true of course the Mets are doing themselves damage wasting a lineup spot (in the #2 hole) on a guy whose main talent is while wearing a mask. And the Mets used to kill themselves by starting Jerry Grote all those years, who couldn't hit a lick. Basically if catcher's D is really meaningless, then managers have been playing the game wrong for 100 years. Bill James's WIN SHARES rated Piazza at a C+ through 2000--I think it's safe to say he got worse, much worse, after 2000 and C+ isn't very good to begin with..

martin Apr 05 2006 01:54 AM

ouch, that was a tough read.

KC Apr 05 2006 05:08 AM

>>>>Sounds like you're implying Lo Duca is dumb. [Just imagine I'm doing a lot of very funny stuff, mimicing your defense of Mikey, in a mock-outraged defense of Lo Duca's intelligence here. Imagine it goes on and on and gets all tedious and pointless eventually, and I make up shit you never said just for fun.<<<< No, I mean that wreckless abandonment is foolish and I didn't say Lo was being wreckless in this instance. Word twister. >>>>Hey, when you said that I owe my being allowed to post here to you, did that mean that Edgy wants to ban me? Can we see the secret transcripts of your conversations (that don't exist, of course) about banning me from this site? Or did you mean something else? Sometimes it's hard to decipher your posts since they lack that quality known to most as "comprehensibilty" and known to you as "manipulative use of the English language." I could try using French, if that will help. My Spanish is kind of rusty.<<<< I've gotten about a dozen requests for you be banned. Some subtle ones and all the way to nuke the bastard off the board NOW!!! . You're really Edgy obsessed this week. >>>>If I get banned, could you slap a banner across the front page explaining how you don't want any criticism of the Mets players or organization being brought up here, though? That will scare off future Met-haters and manipulators of any Indo-European language.<<< There will be no banning or banners, although you deserve a caustic fucktard plaque somewhere on the site for sure.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 05 2006 06:07 AM

KC wrote: No, I mean that wreckless abandonment is foolish and I didn't say Lo was being wreckless in this instance. Word twister. Oh, so you were just saying that deliberately risking injury with no possible gain is dumb baseball. Radical thinking. I'll have to reconsider my proposed rule-change, mandating that each player must carry a plugged-in electric saw or welding tool on the field at all times. So why DID you bring it up in this instance where we were discussing Lo Duca's play at the plate? Just one of those random Tourette's things that happens to you now and then? Sorry to jump to the conclusion that you intended to imply that a catcher who courts contact is being reckless. (Note spelling. If you're reckless you're probably not wreckless. Talk about twisting words to mean their opposite.)

Bret Sabermetric Apr 05 2006 06:27 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 05 2006 06:47 AM

KC wrote: I've gotten about a dozen requests for you be banned. Some subtle ones and all the way to nuke the bastard off the board NOW!!! . Oh, that. I get that all the time, right on this board. Cooby's made that argument, I think, and ABG's tried making it for sure. Who are the other tattletales, I wonder. "Oh, KC, how you suffer at that base ruffian's vile hands! This mockery cannot go on. In the name of all that's good and holy and Metly, send him to the outer darkness so we can have conversations about the Mets wtihout all those horrible reminders of the real world. We can't be bullied by him any longer--he makes fun of us for saying stupid shit, and I insist on my right to say all the stupid shit I want to without challenge or question. He also reminds us of stupid shit we've said in the past that never came anywhere near reality--I hate this man and demand that he be silenced immediately. Let's make the CPF a place where we all agree that stupid shit must be tolerated, in the name of freedom and justice and brotherhood. Ban him! Ban him NOW!! Ban him yesterday, and make his posts all disappear, and let us do our happy dance around the bonfire of his despised memory, please, KC, please, please, please..." Have I captured the spirit of these requests? Get over yourselves. If I can't comment on Lo Duca's improved D over Piazza in his first Met game without a firestorm of defensiveness erupting, The CpF has gone around the bend for good. I mean, what's next? We get a series of injuries to our starting rotation, giving fulltime starting jobs to Bannister, Heilman, Pelfrey, Humber and Maine who go on to HOF careers and I get blasted for pointing out how the Mets got forced to introduce some youth into their plans unwillingly and didnt that work out well? Every smart move the Mets make, and I'm willing to point them out, implies some cluelessness if they had resisted making that move for years and years, Piazza being a perfect example. "We can';t deal Mike because we won't get full value for an MVP-type catcher." Well, no, you won;t get value if you insist that you need an MVP in exchange for Piazza at age 35, but this team would have improved if they'd shipped him out years ago and rebuilt the team. You';ve just experienced a half-decade of suckitude because the Mets tried to pawn off a WIN NOW team on you that needed a Back Up the Truck program. David Wright has been the Mets' best offensive player for a year now, and Willie doesn't trust him to bear up under the pressure of the 3-hole. He's batting Hernandez in the 2-hole, he's committed to batting REYEs leadoff forever, no matter how low his OBP gets. He's giving away at-bats, IOW, based on very little outside of his stubborn stupidity, yet you guys refuse to see that tolerating Willie's ineptitude is just killing this team. The Mets have the core of a winning team finally but the organization and its fans are so tolerant of cluelessness, schmuckiness, poor baseball, posturing, and CYA as sound principles to follow that I think these will outweigh having some decent ballplayers.

KC Apr 05 2006 06:39 AM

>>>Have I captured the spirit of these requests?<<< Not in the slightest. You know what would be amusing (I don't have time to research it) is if we found that Bret was against picking up LoDuca when it happened only to find him wrapping him in swaddling clothes and laying him in the Gold Glove manger and calling The Three Kings to come see him because he blocked the plate on a play on opening day and dropped the ball but looked tough doing it a few months later. I'm probably wrong though, as I am about everything.

Rotblatt Apr 05 2006 07:46 AM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: He's batting Hernandez in the 2-hole Actually, he's batting mighty LoDuca in the 2-hole. Do I cut to the quick of your argument or what?

Bret Sabermetric Apr 05 2006 08:10 AM

Not sure where the quick is. I forget where the idea of batting Hernandez came from, Willie himself or what (though that was his favored spot for Kaz and Cairo last year). it's a disadvantage to have a fairly dumb, very inexperienced bozo managing your team, especially when it's neither a last-place team, on which his mismanagement doesn't really matter, or a dominating power, on which maybe you can get away with a dropped card or two. The 2006 Mets are probably going to be in a pennant fight the first few months of the season at least, and the few games Willie's dumbth or his inexperience will cost you will really cost you. Batting Piazza in the middle of the order early last year probably cost a game or two, and was done for no other reason than conservatism, hopefulness, timidity, and pleasing the attendance, not good principles on which to base a managerial career. I don't feel very well understood around here, which is partly my fault. I want Willie to do well, honestly, and I had hoped he would be that rara avis, a first-time manager who really knew how to manage, but he's showing only his limitations so far. I don';t see signs of improvement at all. Does anyone have a tangible reason to think he's getting better at this job?

Benjamin Grimm Apr 05 2006 08:18 AM

Well, we're only one game into the new season, and I liked his choices of pitchers in that game. (He removed Glavine when I would have, and gave Heilman the two innings I requested in the IGT.) But that's no evidence that he's smarter; it's only one game. But hopefully he'll grow into the position, and sooner rather than later. I'm not sure, but doesn't he have a new bench coach this season? I seem to think that Alomar and Manuel switched jobs. If so, that may help. I wouldn't say I'm optimistic that Willie will become a better manager, but it's a possibility, and as I said, I'm hopeful that it will happen.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 05 2006 08:18 AM

="KCif we found that Bret was against picking up LoDuca when it happened .... I'm probably wrong though, as I am about everything. I don;'t think I voiced an opinion one way or the other. Six of one. The thing I did like was Omar's strategy of not getting played by the FA catchers. I liked that move a lot, though not specifically Lo Duca, whom I didn'[t know that well. But go ahead, paint this as another caustic fucktard move of mine. I don't mind. It's not like I expect a whole lot of even handedness.

soupcan Apr 05 2006 08:34 AM

="Bret Sabermetric"] ="soupcan"] ="Bret Sabermetric"]"]Does Lo Duca have a prayer of winning a Gold Glove this season? A guy has to win a gold glove to be considered 'above average'? Of course not. Then if LoDuca is above average and better defensively than Piazza, then Piazza can be considered average. ="Bret Sabermetric"]But Lo Duca is, I don;t know, the fourth or fifth best defesnive catcher in the league. No prayer of winning a Gold Glove or anything, but he's clearly better than average. If there weren';t a huge difference between LoDuca and Piazaz defensively, it wouldn't make a shred of sense to dump Piazza, who's clearly still better offensively than Lo Duca. But even the Mets, who've twisted themselves into pretzels excusing Piazza's defense, couldn;t do that. Does that tell you nothing? I addressed this in my previous post - .And why is it wrong to simply believe that the Mets didn't want to invest another year and $$$ in an aging catcher who seemed as if he was starting to break down physically? Perhaps they weighed their options and thought 'Yes Piazza is fine defensively and calls a satisfactory game but he is getting older and is getting hurt more. He's not as consistent a hitter and can't throw anybody out. His contract is up why don't we just let him go and start fresh?' Do you want a rational debate or do you just want to keep posting the same things until I just simply agree? You make your points and I'm making mine, how about giving my opinions some thought as well? You're bitching and moaning that no one wants to simply debate the issue with you but you don't seem to want to read or take into consideration other people's points. ="Bret Sabermetric"]Proof isn;t forthcoming from either side in this discussion, which should be a comfort to those committed to hanging on to their opinions. Including you.. ="Bret Sabermetric"]Mets who actually say damaging things about ex-teammates, or the organization (see Mientkiewicz) are characterized as malcontents with agendas, so "proof" tend to be taken as meaningless by those who prefer to do so. If I somehow got Glavine to say damaging stuff about Piazza, you'd find some way to spin it as irrelevant or misquoted or kidding around because you don't want to accept it. That's quite a large assumption you are making about me. You sure do like to assume things but get really upset when other people do. ="Bret Sabermetric"]That's cool. Think what you like. I don;'t have to agree with it, do I? You're the guy who never saw Piazza shy away from contact at home plate--if you don;t believe your eyes, or don't believe KC's claim to prefer catchers who through their supreme intelligence avoid risking injury, what could my words possibly tell you? See, I didn't say that. What I said was that if there were an overabundance of Piazza's shying away from contact or passed balls I think I would've noticed. I didn't notice it. Why is it so important to you that we all believe Piazza was a bad catcher? I think we would all agree that he was not gold glove caliber or even necessarilly above average. But why does it rankle you so much that the majority of Mets fans liked the guy and considerd him an adequate backstop? You didn't? Great. I did.

KC Apr 05 2006 08:45 AM

BS: It's not like I expect a whole lot of even handedness. And I don't expect you to change, play nice with others, or stop portraying your- self as some kind of victim in this whole bizarre situation.

Rotblatt Apr 05 2006 09:09 AM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: I don't see signs of improvement at all. Does anyone have a tangible reason to think he's getting better at this job? Like Yance says, the way he managed the first game gave me a little hope, as did his decision to give Bannister a slot in the rotation. My biggest gripe last year was his use of pitchers, and if he's TRUELY made strides there, I'm pleased. I'd still rather have Bobby V., but what can you do? (Speaking of Bobby, on the Opening Day broadcast, Keith said Bobby should've won manager of the year in 2000, which surprised me a bit. For some reason, I thought Keith didn't like Bobby.) And somewhat to my surprise, I'm less angry about LoDuca batting 2nd than I thought I'd be. I mean, I'd rather have Beltran there and LoDuca batting 7th, but if LoDuca gets on base at around his career .330 OBP clip, it's at least a significant improvement over last year--and far, far better than putting Hernandez there. I'm also coming around to the whole "batting order is meaningless" argument, although the aesthetic of the batting order still appeals to me. I'm far less convinced of the argument that contributions defensivly--at any position--are negligible, despite studies to the contrary. I'm fascinated by the idea of the Fielding Bible--I really need to pick up a copy of that. Once I do, I'll post whatever they say about Piazza here--should be interesting.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 05 2006 09:54 AM

We’d been over the blocking the plate question a million times, and that’s certainly not what I intended to discuss in this thread – mine was a simple observation that I liked his presence of mind to have sold a tag he didn’t make. That said: 1) You never showed Piazza blocked the plate any less than other catchers even though we agreed two years ago at that Met game that you’d need to in order to continue with a point of view this argument. How is that coming? 2) You also have yet to offer any proof that blocking and/or not blocking the plate is a conscious style choice that wouldn’t change from play to play, as I would guess, which might also be divined from from study before a conclusion is reached. 3) That LoDuca is probably better than Piazza defensively is certainly a nice thing, but hardly the only one, in a comparison. Most of what I’d read about LoDuca leads me to believe he’s average or a little below. 4) Your contention above that If he was even an average catcher, there would have been no reason at all for the Mets not to have signed him again this year overlooks that the Mets would have been prevented from re-signing him for something less than $10 million. That’s a pretty good reason, just to start. The well-documented declines in offensive production, his age, injuries, etc etc are other considerations. It’s not like they looked at fielding in the vacuum in which you’re framed this decision. 5) I get the impression that most observers would consider Piazza average were it not for throwing out baserunners, which gets back to your unfinished study of plate-blocking, passed-ball prevention and popup-catching (you may as well add relay-throw catching now that you have a start; LoDuca is 0-1). Kindly get to that before bringing this up again, not because I’m preparing to deny it but that I’ve watched more Mike Piazza catching than you (or Bill James for that matter) since 1998 and just don’t see a) A pattern of intentional avoidance of contact or b) That fact that it matters but in odd cases.

Elster88 Apr 05 2006 10:00 AM

Edit: FUCK IT

MFS62 Apr 05 2006 10:09 AM

I've stayed out of this so far. But ]Then if LoDuca is above average and better defensively than Piazza, then Piazza can be considered average. This caught my eye. It is not necessarily true, from either a logic or mathematical standpoint. Using a non-baseball example I'm 6'1" tall The average height of an American male is 5'10" tall. So, I'm "taller than average" I'm taller than Fred. Fred is 5"7" tall. He is not average. Only if Fred were 5'10" tall would he be "average". Later

Elster88 Apr 05 2006 10:11 AM

That's exactly the point of the text you quoted. It's not necessarily true, but it can be true. That's what the poster was trying to say.

MFS62 Apr 05 2006 10:38 AM

Elster88 wrote: That's exactly the point of the text you quoted. It's not necessarily true, but it can be true. That's what the poster was trying to say. Yes. I was using a non-baseball example to show that. I didn't saythe person who said it was wrong. (Oh, shit, I knew I should have stayed out of this. Just trying to be helpful.) Later

Elster88 Apr 05 2006 10:38 AM

I was trying to be helpful too. I feel no anger.

soupcan Apr 05 2006 10:40 AM

I understood Bret to be saying that LoDuca is 'average' because he is not a gold glove caliber catcher. Ergo, since Piazza is worse defensively than Piazza, Piazza is below average' I was using his logic.

old original jb Apr 05 2006 11:00 AM A suggestion

Since this thread has somehow been hijacked into a very tedious argument having something to do with what we all think about what KC and Bret Sabermetric are saying to each other and how they are saying it ( I literally could not bring myself to read even a fraction of any of the posts) ...could I ask Rotblatt to repost his very interesting bit on the true role of catcher's defense in another thread so it can be discussed away from all the clutter?

Elster88 Apr 05 2006 11:31 AM

It's been done. New thread: [url]http://cybermessageboard.ehost.com/getalife/viewtopic.php?t=2840[/url]

KC Apr 05 2006 11:50 AM

Sorry jb, stepping back from what goes on I'm actually embarrased to be part of it. I called a friend of mine last night. D'head, his name is Darrell but we call him D'head because he's a dickhead. Always was, always will be - I've known him forever and we've been friends with him since little league. K: D'head, what up? D: Yo K: Watch Monday? D: I saw it that night, whatya think I get cable in my truck asshole? K: Dick D: How was that box thing? Ant said he stopped by and you met Rusty. Is he still fat? K: He ain't really fat, he's large. Awesome grip for a sixty-something year old man. D: Yeah, my wife has a large ass - I say she's fat. K: D'head, we argue a lot - how do we stay friends? D: Cause ya know, I don't know, we both know we're assholes and never it no mind. K: I guess. I argue with a friend on the internet a lot - gets ugly and pisses off our other friends. D: Remember that time I lit your beard on fire at Liv's party and you knocked over a table full of drinks running around like an asshole? K: I was on fire, dick. D: You got over it though, it ain't like you don't do shit to me. Remem ... K: Pretty much we keep it simple, no family jokes, no D: No mama jokes, oh you ain't gotta a mama, she's dead K: Dick D: A don't you ever fuckin' call me condescending. K: WHAT? D: Condescending. You need to go look it up bozohead? I will rain down a shit storm on you like you've never seen if you ever did that. I'd rather you make fun of my children or my wifes large ass. K: Wow D: What? K: Nothing D: That internet shit is gonna rot your brain, you should start smoking weed again instead if you wanna rot your brain. K: I gotta go. D: See ya Saturday K: Later

cooby Apr 05 2006 12:01 PM

Is 'Ant' one of those two Tonys?

ScarletKnight41 Apr 05 2006 12:03 PM

]D: Remember that time I lit your beard on fire at Liv's party and you knocked over a table full of drinks running around like an asshole? K: I was on fire, dick. I'm dying here.

soupcan Apr 05 2006 01:12 PM

KC wrote: D: How was that box thing? Ant said he stopped by and you met Rusty. Is he still fat? K: He ain't really fat, he's large. Awesome grip for a sixty-something year old man. Is this Le Grande Orange that you are speaking of?

KC Apr 05 2006 01:31 PM

Yeah, I haven't had time to post too much about opening day - been tied up disgusting Bret and stuff - but Mr. Staub sat with us for a spell and posed for pics and signed pictures. Icing on a great big cake of a day!

soupcan Apr 05 2006 01:35 PM

That's awesome.

cooby Apr 05 2006 01:48 PM

It was pretty cool!

ScarletKnight41 Apr 05 2006 01:57 PM

Yes - incredibly so.

soupcan Apr 05 2006 02:12 PM

Regale us with Rusty stories!

Willets Point Apr 05 2006 02:17 PM

You sit and talk with Rusty Freakin' Staub and wait two freakin' days to even mention it!!! Start a new "Our Interview With Rusty Staub" thread now!!!!!

Edgy DC Apr 05 2006 02:20 PM

I hope you asked him what the deal was with him and Steve Zabriskie's wife.

cooby Apr 05 2006 02:21 PM

Edgy DC wrote: I hope you asked him what the deal was with him and Steve Zabriskie's wife. Why, are they related?

cooby Apr 05 2006 02:24 PM

Rusty was very nice. We basically stampeded when we saw him and he posed for each of us who wanted to be photographed with him, Also, he autographed pictures for us. It was a nice surprise and Scarlet swears she was just as surprised as we were.

ScarletKnight41 Apr 05 2006 02:27 PM

Shocked. Totally shocked. We didn't interview him. We were stunned and dazed to be in his aura. All except KB, who wanted to know whether Keith and Ron would be coming around next. I do have pix - I'll post some as soon as I get back from my kid chauffeuring gig. Unless Kase or cooby posts them first.

cooby Apr 05 2006 02:29 PM

Aura, that's the perfect word for it. His Majesty, Rusty. That's what that guy should have said that came to tell you he was here

ScarletKnight41 Apr 05 2006 02:31 PM

Cooby and Le Grand Orange

Edgy DC Apr 05 2006 02:32 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 05 2006 02:33 PM

]Why, are they related? According to Zabriskie, and I quote, "He's been in love with my wife for 20 years!" Excellent. Look at Kase wondering where he can find Seaver. Always looking for the upgrade.

cooby Apr 05 2006 02:33 PM

I've been in love with Rusty for 30

Edgy DC Apr 05 2006 02:33 PM

That photo has to go in the Crane Pool Companion Hall of Fame.

cooby Apr 05 2006 02:36 PM

I think there are probably better ones

Willets Point Apr 05 2006 02:36 PM

I've been in love with Cooby for 2 years.

ScarletKnight41 Apr 05 2006 02:50 PM

Here's more for the Companion HOF

cooby Apr 05 2006 02:53 PM

Wow, Rusty stood up for KC

ScarletKnight41 Apr 05 2006 02:56 PM

I think the reason that we didn't talk about this is that it just seemed so surreal. We're there, watching the game, and next thing we know we're in the company of Le Grand Orange. There was no time to prepare to think about it - he was just there. I called my friend who was there with us yesterday. She wasn't home, so I left a message on her machine that went something like, "I had the weirdest dream. Rusty Staub was at the game with us. Mr. Met too." It still feels like that.

Benjamin Grimm Apr 05 2006 03:00 PM

Rusty still looks like he can step in and play right field, doesn't he?

Willets Point Apr 05 2006 03:16 PM

Rusty and Mr. Met really deserve their own thread. May I split these posts off?

ScarletKnight41 Apr 05 2006 03:18 PM

I actually kind of like keeping it here, but I'll defer to the preferences of the others.

Benjamin Grimm Apr 05 2006 04:09 PM

Eek. Something happened to Scarlett's hyperlink.

ScarletKnight41 Apr 05 2006 04:11 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: Eek. Something happened to Scarlett's hyperlink. Which hyperlink?

Benjamin Grimm Apr 05 2006 04:11 PM

The Jon Matlack link. But now it's okay again.

ScarletKnight41 Apr 05 2006 04:12 PM

Good - it's nothing that was my fault :)

cooby Apr 05 2006 05:22 PM

Where's Scarlet and Rusty?

ScarletKnight41 Apr 05 2006 05:24 PM

Here -

Willets Point Apr 05 2006 07:49 PM

ScarletKnight41 wrote: I actually kind of like keeping it here, but I'll defer to the preferences of the others. As you wish.

Edgy DC Apr 05 2006 07:57 PM

"...and this is my son, Le Petit Orange."

Johnny Dickshot Apr 25 2006 10:48 AM

I'm falling out of like with Paul LoDuca. Not just the slumping bat, tho that would allay a lot of pain. But he just doesn't look around the plate blocking stuff, got his mitt knocked off by a Tom Glavine pitch, and hasn't thrown out a runner yet.

Centerfield Apr 25 2006 11:02 AM

One thing I'm noticing about LoDuca...announcers will speculate about the great advice he is giving a pitcher, and then cite to it as an example of his leadership. Fictitious Example: Gary: "LoDuca out to the mound. He's probably telling him to calm down and focus on the batter. Trying to get him to settle down..." Keith: "Well, that is his reputation. People say he's a leader..." Gary: "And that's the type of thing you just can't measure. Paul LoDuca has really brought that leadership to this team bla bla bla."