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="soupcan"]="Gwreck"] Beltran's attitude coupled with the fan suckling his teet (love that word) just riled me up.
[No entry found for teet.
Did you mean Tete?
Suggestions:
Tete
Tet
Tebet
Teest
Teret
Tevet
Tret
tenet
tweet
teeth
tee
Eet
Tuet
deet
teat
teed
tent
test
Geet
Leet
Seet
Teek
Teel
Tees
Weet
beet
feet
leet
meet
teek
teem
teen
tees
Teut.
test.
tee's
tees'
tent 1
tent 2
BOOOOOOO! I love that word. There are multiple spellings Booo, Boo Boooo and so on.
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RealityChuck
Apr 07 2006 12:54 PM
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Booing can be justified, but not in this case. Two games into the season? Come on.
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Elster88
Apr 07 2006 12:54 PM
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I don't think there will ever be less discourse regarding booing, at least not on this site. Whoever takes this site over after we all die will still be carrying on this argument, making the same points on both sides that have been made here for years. Just with different player names.
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Edgy DC
Apr 07 2006 01:03 PM
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Hey, you all. Shut up. Hillbilly is in the house and I think he deserves a teet-suckling howyabeendoin?
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soupcan
Apr 07 2006 01:13 PM
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You guys are tireless, man.
Elster88 - But seriously, how many of the booers are doing all that thinking? When someone is shouting "YOU FUCKING SUCK!!!" is he doing for the reasons you cite?
This is completely different. I can only tell you what I think. When I say 'I boo him', I mean I 'BOOOO' him. I do not yell nasty things. I make an 'O' with my mouth and the sound 'BOOOOO' comes out. I can't speak for people shouting vulgarities.
duan - Fine, but booing is probably the least likely thing to help that.
When I boo, my interest is in expressing myself not helping an overpaid supremely talented player preform better. If he needs my help he's in trouble.
Johnny Dickshot - The irony is... ironic, isn't it?
It's not stopping me from typing my responses or formulating my thoughts, though. Its just unpleasent and not necessary. I'M STILL PREFORMING BABY!
Hillbilly - No entry found for teet. Did you mean Tete?
Really? Okay, I'll take 'tit'.
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 07 2006 01:19 PM
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The spelling you meant was "teat"
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metirish
Apr 07 2006 01:26 PM
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Willets Point
Apr 07 2006 01:27 PM
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Aigh! Cow porn!!!
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soupcan
Apr 07 2006 01:32 PM
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I know that cow!
That's Elsie Rural Road 36 in a scene from 'Udder Desire'
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Centerfield
Apr 07 2006 01:44 PM
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Stop mooing Elsie soupcan.
(groan)
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 07 2006 01:53 PM
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| ="metirish"] |
Exactly what I meant by "unwashed boobs."
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Centerfield
Apr 07 2006 02:35 PM
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By the way, whatever happened to soupcan's "C"?
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soupcan
Apr 07 2006 02:37 PM
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I think I was impeached.
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rpackrat
Apr 07 2006 02:59 PM
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Almost every one of Soupcan's posts mentione Beltran's contract. It really seems like you're booing him because you're jealous of his money.
I think that signing a big contract (or any contract, for that matter) obligates the player to do only one thing: Make his best effort. A player can't control the results; he can only control his effort. If you have some evidence that Beltran is not putting in his best effort, then by all means boo him. If he is putting in his best effort but not getting the results, then what exactly do you hope to accomplish? Is your booing going to get that line drive down the line to land 2 inches fair instead of 2 inches foul? Is it going to cause the warning track fly ball to go 5 extra feet? It's just infantile petulance rooted in jealousy that this guy makes so much more money than most of us ever will.
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cooby
Apr 07 2006 03:04 PM
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silverdsl wrote:
Athletes for the most part likely have thick skin because they've heard all sorts of critcism from the fans, the media and sometimes even their teams if they aren't performing. But they are still human beings and I don't think a stadium full of people booing is always that easy to shrug off. Everyone, I don't care who they are, wants positive reenforcement, wants to feel like they are liked and that they are doing things right.
Personally, I don't boo players but I respect the right of other fans to do so. That said, I wish that some fans would give players more of a chance to do right before they turn on them, particularly in a new season. I am not just talking about Mets fans here - Yankee fans are ripping apart some players and the team right now too and if the Yankees were playing at home I'm quite sure that there would be plenty of boos on that side of town as well. |
Reread silver's post. There are some very wise words in there.
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Hillbilly
Apr 07 2006 04:10 PM
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Sorry soup, just some silly fun at your expense. I'm glad I turned this thread toward pictures of teats.
I don't boo Mets, but of course I can't stop someone else from doing so. In most cases I think it's stupid, but that's me.
I was looking at your guy's predictions for the season. No one is really expecting much from Beltran. Perhaps he'll turn it around and the booing will become a non-issue.
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 07 2006 04:11 PM
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rpackrat wrote:
Almost every one of Soupcan's posts mentione Beltran's contract. It really seems like you're booing him because you're jealous of his money.
I think that signing a big contract (or any contract, for that matter) obligates the player to do only one thing: Make his best effort. A player can't control the results; he can only control his effort. If you have some evidence that Beltran is not putting in his best effort, then by all means boo him. If he is putting in his best effort but not getting the results, then what exactly do you hope to accomplish? Is your booing going to get that line drive down the line to land 2 inches fair instead of 2 inches foul? Is it going to cause the warning track fly ball to go 5 extra feet? It's just infantile petulance rooted in jealousy that this guy makes so much more money than most of us ever will. |
It's not the money, it's the club's investment in him. By paying such a huge salary, the club (claims) it is unable to pay other players, so it has in effect tied its results closely to his. That, I believe, is what Soupy is complaining about when he complains about Beltran's salary.
And rightly so. By signing that contract, Beltran "said" not only that he would collect all that money, no matter what the actual results on the field, but he would give value for it and take criticism if he underperforms. No ballplayer has ever signed a $119 million contract and announced at his press conference "This is all about the money. Now I've got the Mets on the hook, but they can't really expect me to play particularly well or under any adverse circumstances. I might not play so well if hear boos. If I get a tweak in my gluteus maximus, I might take a month off. If my manager sticks me in the wrong slot, or rests me when I feel like playing, or expects me to motivate my lazy teammates when that's not my job, well, fuck it. Maybe I don't try to so hard if they pull any of that shit with me. if I feel like bunting for twenty straight at-bats, that is my decision, and nobody better get in my face. I've signed this contract and Im set for life." No, they promise to fulfill the contract, and it's not unreasonable to expect something like $119 million dollars worth of performance, starting with Day One of the deal. if Beltran tanks, our next seven years are going to be tough sledding, and that what the big contract represents to me, a huge commitment, for which I expect a huge performance. If I don't get it, I have no problem with Beltran living with boos. If he does, I'll switch places with him anytime. In fact, you guys are all welcome at my apartment to boo me. Bring a twenty bucks entrance fee, and you can curse me out for half a hour straight. I'll sit there and I'll smile and tip my cap the whole time.
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 07 2006 04:37 PM
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Johnny Dickshot wrote:
| ]I know you don't mean anything personally but could we stop with the name calling. It just makes it harder not to respond in kind and I'd rather this not devolve into that. |
The irony is... ironic, isn't it? |
Not really. We have the capacity to be subtle, and thoughtful, and considerate of each other here, but you're in a binary position out in the cheap seats trying to communicate something to a player. Either you shut up and or communicate something very unsubtle. If I had only a second of two of your attention, and maybe a 15,000 to 1 chance it would reach you, I'd give up on subtlety and I'd probably treat much more rudely than I otherwise would.
Celebrities of all sorts benefit enormously from their fame, not just financially, but when they complain about some of the downsides, I always want to ask them if they'd like to give up the whole package. Of course, they 'd look at you and say "Me? Go back to being a grocery clerk? I don't think so." There's a word for people who want the good parts of their lives and refuse to absorb even a little of the bad part. What word am I thinking of?
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Johnny Dickshot
Apr 07 2006 05:10 PM
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You can explain away the ugliness any way you want, but booing still embarrasses me, still makes you look like a jerk, and won't ever be particularly effective.
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KC
Apr 07 2006 06:09 PM
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Gary Cohen just mentioned message boards where fans discuss the Mets and
specifically the threads the last couple of days re: booing.
No mention of specific boards that he reads.
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 07 2006 06:25 PM
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Johnny Dickshot wrote:
You can explain away the ugliness any way you want, but booing still embarrasses me, still makes you look like a jerk, and won't ever be particularly effective. |
ADD: ...and won't ever stop.
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Nymr83
Apr 07 2006 07:03 PM
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Produce and you won't hear "boooo" its as simple as that.
I agree with Bret, pay me a fraction of what they get paid TO PLAY A FRIGGIN GAME and you can boo me all you want, i'll probably even join in booing myself if i'm playing poorly.
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KC
Apr 07 2006 07:29 PM
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Paying someone a couple of 20's and going over their house and booing
them and getting booed in your stadium on your first failed at bat by a crowd
in front of 55,000 people and broadcasted to hundreds of thousand of other
fans ON OPENING DAY is a pretty silly comparison.
The camp that plays the "they're getting paid millions to play a kids game and
I'd do if for a fraction" is silly too.
I can't decide what was dumber about the start of our season, the booing or
the Enter Sandman saga. At least the where to bat Beltran debate has some
baseball legs to it, the rest is quite yawn producing.
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soupcan
Apr 07 2006 07:55 PM
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="rpackrat"]Almost every one of Soupcan's posts mentione Beltran's contract. It really seems like you're booing him because you're jealous of his money.
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Damn straight I'm jealous of his money. Aren't you?
It's not the reason I'd boo him but it sure as hell plays into it. As I've explained the man gets paid a crapload of money to produce and as Bret has explained so well this figures into the entire makeup of the club.
If the guy lives up to his contract - and to me in this case that means give me your average career numbers - then I'll cheer louder than you, but if he doesn't I see nothing wrong with booing. If you're going to call me a jerk then I'm going to you a sycophantic idol-worshipping teat suckler.
I do understand everyone's point about not booing your hometown guy and instead encouraging and supporting him and that's cool. When Piazza first came here in '98 that was my attitude towards him. The difference then was that Piazza had no prior experience here so I was willing to give him some time to come around. Beltran has had a full season. I'm frustrated with him.
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KC
Apr 07 2006 08:01 PM
Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Apr 07 2006 08:06 PM
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I haven't read everything posted here, it's just too much and I don't have a
horse in this thread. But can we all agree that booing him after his first at
bat on opening day was a little whack? I don't care about his money, his
first season, or anything like that - Shea fans can be and often are assholes.
I offer the "Yankee Suck" chants as another example of the bone headed
contingent that creates the long beer lines and don't buy one at a time.
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Nymr83
Apr 07 2006 08:04 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 07 2006 08:08 PM
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]But can we all agree that booing him after his first at
bat on opening day was a little whack |
I think it's worth booing him the first time up as a result of last season, after that its a new year and i wont start booing him again unless he's shitty late enough into the season to form an opinion.
Although i will boo someone for a boneheaded play, like what Hermida did tonight, no matter what.
]...as another example of the bone headed
contingent that creates the long beer lines and don't buy one at a time. |
you mean the guys who keep Shea in business by dutifully shelling out $60 for 6 beers?
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soupcan
Apr 07 2006 08:04 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 07 2006 08:20 PM
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KC wrote:
But can we all agree that booing him after his first at
bat on opening day was a little whack? I don't care about his money, his
first season, or anything like that - Shea fans can be and often are assholes. |
I'll give you that.
Again the only reason I booed then was to irk a fan.
Fans of every team can be assholes though. I don't want hear about how loving Cardinal fans are. Personally I think THEY are morons for treating their athletes like kings just because they wear a St. Louis uniform.
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soupcan
Apr 07 2006 08:08 PM
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Johnny Dickshot wrote:
It bothers me when alleged supporters of the team behave like entitled illiterate schmucks, because it reflects poorly on me. |
That's crap by the way.
What I do does not reflect on you. I'm an individual and so are you. Why should you care what other people who don't know you think about you?
You sound like my 9 year-old son who gets embarrassed when I sing loudly along with the muzak in the supermarket.
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rpackrat
Apr 07 2006 08:56 PM
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| ]If you're going to call me a jerk then I'm going to you a sycophantic idol-worshipping teat suckler. |
Yes, because arguing that one should not act like a jerk toward someone else is certainly tantamount to sycophantic idol worship. In fact, I engage in sycophantic idol worship every morning when I wait for the people sitting in front of me on the bus to get out of their seats before I move into the aisle.
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Edgy DC
Apr 07 2006 09:03 PM
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| ]You sound like my 9 year-old son who gets embarrassed when I sing loudly along with the muzak in the supermarket. |
That is embarassing.
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Johnny Dickshot
Apr 07 2006 09:18 PM
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No it isn't.
| ]What I do does not reflect on you. |
Sure it does.
| ]Why should you care what other people who don't know you think about you? |
Because it undermines my pride.
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soupcan
Apr 07 2006 09:55 PM
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rpackrat wrote:
Yes, because arguing that one should not act like a jerk toward someone else is certainly tantamount to sycophantic idol worship. In fact, I engage in sycophantic idol worship every morning when I wait for the people sitting in front of me on the bus to get out of their seats before I move into the aisle. |
No idea what you're trying to say here.
| ="Edgy DC"]That is embarassing. |
For a 9 year old maybe. But I do have a very pleasant singing voice and I usually know most of the words.
| ="Johnny Dickshot"]Sure it does. |
No it doesn't.
| ="Johnny Dickshot"]Because it undermines my pride. |
Sorry, that's your problem. Give Freud a call.
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 07 2006 09:59 PM
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I apologize for ever implying that you guys all drink from the same Koolaid pitcher with equally thirst-quenching efforts.
Oh, do I love it when there's disagreement between people other than me. Such a pleasure to read and to savor. Give me more, please! Somebody, call someone else a nasty name, quick.
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Johnny Dickshot
Apr 07 2006 10:04 PM
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]Sure it does.
No it doesn't. |
Does too.
That I should. I wonder what his take might be on envious projecting.
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 07 2006 10:09 PM
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Soupy, you gonna just take that from Dickshot?
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Edgy DC
Apr 07 2006 10:31 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 07 2006 10:40 PM
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rpackrat wrote:
Yes, because arguing that one should not act like a jerk toward someone else is certainly tantamount to sycophantic idol worship. In fact, I engage in sycophantic idol worship every morning when I wait for the people sitting in front of me on the bus to get out of their seats before I move into the aisle. |
I think he's clearly using irony to say that arguing that one should not act like a jerk toward someone is not tantamount to sycophantic idol worship, a position of yours he's inferring from the teat-suckling post.
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 07 2006 10:36 PM
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This is one of those words people use when their syntax is as tangled as a bowl of spaghetti and their diction includes a negative construction plus an inferrence. "Clearly," "obviously,' "plainly," "manifestly," "naturally"--when I hear any of these, my BS detector goes wild.
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soupcan
Apr 08 2006 06:35 AM
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="Edgy DC"]| ="rpackrat"]Yes, because arguing that one should not act like a jerk toward someone else is certainly tantamount to sycophantic idol worship. In fact, I engage in sycophantic idol worship every morning when I wait for the people sitting in front of me on the bus to get out of their seats before I move into the aisle. |
I think he's clearly using irony to say that arguing that one should not act like a jerk toward someone is not tantamount to sycophantic idol worship, a position of yours he's inferring from the teat-suckling post. |
Well I never said that 'jerk' and 'sycophantic idol worshipping teat suckler' were equivalent, just that if I were going to be called one then I'd call the other person the other. What I didn't understand - and still don't - is how a person on a bus hoping someone will change seats is an idol. 'Splain that please.
]Sure it does.
No it doesn't.
Does too. |
Does not.
| ="Johnny Dickshot"]I wonder what his take might be on envious projecting. |
Sometimes Johnny, a cigar is just a cigar.
Holy Crap! I'm Willie Mays!
Say Hey!
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 08 2006 06:44 AM
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Dickshot, you gonna take that from Soupy?
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Frayed Knot
Apr 08 2006 07:55 AM
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Biggest load of horse-shit excuse to date for booing Beltran (courtesy late night WFAN caller):
'We're not booing him, we're booing the fact that he's hitting 3rd in the lineup instead of 2nd'
Yeah right!
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 08 2006 08:02 AM
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Why? It could be true, for that person.
You'll get a dozen answers to the question "Why are you booing him" if you put it to a dozen fans. Why assume that 11 of them are lying?
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old original jb
Apr 08 2006 08:11 AM
Collateral Damage
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Booing the Mets to annoy the fan next to you would be like if I called you an asshole to your face in order to piss off my aunt Minnie who doesn't like to hear me curse.
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 08 2006 08:23 AM
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I didn;t say you;d get a dozen good answers.
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Johnny Dickshot
Apr 08 2006 08:50 AM
Re: Collateral Damage
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old original jb wrote:
Booing the Mets to annoy the fan next to you would be like if I called you an asshole to your face in order to piss off my aunt Minnie who doesn't like to hear me curse. |
I'm pretty sure Aunt Minnie would agree with the senitment though. Bad example.
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 08 2006 08:56 AM
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1. he sucks
2. I'm trying to piss off my aunt Minnie by acting like an idiot
3. he didn't hit last year
4. I'm drunk
5. That guy over there started booing and I figure he had a good reason
6. Sending a message that he should try harder
7. Too damned many Latinos on this club.
8. I don't like Free Agents. The Mets should have brought up Brian Cole.
9. Willie's batting him in the wrong spot in the lineup. I'm sending Willie a message.
10. I had a bad day at work, and he got paid more for that last strikeout than I make in a week.
11. I boo everyone until we win the division--keeps them sharp.
12. I was booing?
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Nymr83
Apr 08 2006 09:34 AM
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#4 leads to half the others.
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Elster88
Apr 08 2006 10:36 AM
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3, 4, and 10 are the most likely actual reasons.
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Iubitul
Apr 08 2006 10:53 AM
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Bret Sabermetric wrote:
8. I don't like Free Agents. The Mets should have brought up Brian Cole.
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They probably would have if he was wearing his seatbelt.
RIP Brian.
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Frayed Knot
Apr 08 2006 11:07 AM
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"You'll get a dozen answers to the question "Why are you booing him" if you put it to a dozen fans. Why assume that 11 of them are lying?"
I'm not assuming that all are lying.
But I do recognize 'watch me rationalize my childish behavior by prentending to analyze game strategy' bullshit when I hear it.
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A Boy Named Seo
Apr 09 2006 12:46 PM
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| ]Fans of every team can be assholes though. I don't want hear about how loving Cardinal fans are. Personally I think THEY are morons for treating their athletes like kings just because they wear a St. Louis uniform. |
This is crazy. Cheering for the team you like does not equal "treating their athletes like kings".
In most other cities, hell, maybe every other city except Philly, fans generally like the team and the players they go to watch and respond in kind. People in other cities (like LA, where booing is extremely rare) may be viewed as passive and laid-back, but they think that booing Mets fans are fair-weathered, loud-mouthed, jerk-offs. I'm an out-of-towner and I agree.
I thought "Runaway Jury" blew, but I didn't go to the Golden Globes or anything to boo Cusack on the red carpet.
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soupcan
Apr 09 2006 06:56 PM
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="A Boy Named Seo"]| ]Fans of every team can be assholes though. I don't want hear about how loving Cardinal fans are. Personally I think THEY are morons for treating their athletes like kings just because they wear a St. Louis uniform. |
This is crazy. Cheering for the team you like does not equal "treating their athletes like kings".
In most other cities, hell, maybe every other city except Philly, fans generally like the team and the players they go to watch and respond in kind. People in other cities (like LA, where booing is extremely rare) may be viewed as passive and laid-back, but they think that booing Mets fans are fair-weathered, loud-mouthed, jerk-offs. I'm an out-of-towner and I agree.
I thought "Runaway Jury" blew, but I didn't go to the Golden Globes or anything to boo Cusack on the red carpet. |
Lot of assumptions being made in this thread. I said they treat them kings. I never equated cheering for them as treating them like kings. I meant that the pro athletes, Cardinals especially, in that town are treated like royalty on the field and off for no other reason then they play for the Cardinals. They are given carte blanche in restaurants and other establishments around town no matter what kind of person they are, reputation they have or least of which - what they do on the field. If Charles Manson had 45 ABs for the Cardinals he wouldn't have even been arrested in St. Louis much less convicted of any crime.
I like that New York and Philly and Boston and other hard-nosed towns demand more from their athletes than just throwing their gloves on the field. I couldn't care less what an L.A. Dodger fan thinks about me. What do they know anyway? They think Major League games are only 7 innings long.
No wonder players think that the St. Looey fans are the best. They don't expect anything so you can't fail them.
And if you did go to the Golden Globes and booed Cusak for making a bad movie that you spent upwards of $20 for (popcorn and soda included) I would've applauded you.
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A Boy Named Seo
Apr 09 2006 07:17 PM
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Do you think a Cardinal fan is less disappointed when their team loses or one of their guys slumps? Or do they just not immaturely whine about it as if the player were intentionally trying to ruin Johnny Lunchbucket's afternoon? Being a loudmouth doesn't make a fan more passionate or demanding. It just makes them a loudmouth.
As for making assumptions, I didn't realize you were talking about widely-known perks of the professional athlete in the greater St. Louis metropoliatan area (no assumptions made there). Those impossible-to-get Blues tickets, getting to ride the golf cart instead of walking on the Anheuser Busch tour. I'm admittedly not as familiar with the VIP treatment the St. Louis Cardinals players routinely receive at the various upscale eateries around their town, but I suppose Hector Luna getting the great table at Ruth's Criss is as good a reason for booing as any I've read in this thread.
Boo, Hector Luna! Boo!
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Elster88
Apr 09 2006 08:19 PM
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| ="soupcan"]And if you did go to the Golden Globes and booed Cusak for making a bad movie that you spent upwards of $20 for (popcorn and soda included) I would've applauded you. |
It's Cusack's fault the movie sucked? You really would applaud that?
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 09 2006 08:26 PM
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I would boo anyone who applauded you for booing Cusack.
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soupcan
Apr 09 2006 08:27 PM
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| ="A Boy Named Seo"]Do you think a Cardinal fan is less disappointed when their team loses or one of their guys slumps? Or do they just not immaturely whine about it as if the player were intentionally trying to ruin Johnny Lunchbucket's afternoon? |
I think that in some small way they are afraid to boo their home team guys. Possibly they are insecure people residing in a fly-over state and they have a small market mentality. Maybe they think that if they boo, then players won't want to come there and then all they'll have is an ugly piece of post-modern stainless steel to identify with. I don't know. It's a theory.
| ="A Boy Named Seo"]Being a loudmouth doesn't make a fan more passionate or demanding. It just makes them a loudmouth. |
Okay.
="A Boy Named Seo"]..but I suppose Hector Luna getting the great table at Ruth's Criss is as good a reason for booing as any I've read in this thread.
Boo, Hector Luna! Boo! |
I'm with you there!
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Elster88
Apr 09 2006 08:27 PM
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Well leave Cusack out of the equation. It's not [random actor]'s fault that somebody blew the $20.
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soupcan
Apr 09 2006 08:31 PM
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="Elster88"]| ="soupcan"]And if you did go to the Golden Globes and booed Cusak for making a bad movie that you spent upwards of $20 for (popcorn and soda included) I would've applauded you. |
It's Cusack's fault the movie sucked? You really would applaud that? |
I would applaud the effort and the cojones it would take to actually go to the Golden Globes just to boo an actor whose movie stunk.
| ="Bret Sabermetric"]I would boo anyone who applauded you for booing Cusack. |
And I would applaud your booing of my applause of his booing.
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 09 2006 08:34 PM
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soupcan wrote:
And I would applaud your booing of my applause of his booing. |
This has potential to get tiresome in a few days.
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TheOldMole
Apr 09 2006 08:45 PM
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Then we'll boo it.
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Rockin' Doc
Apr 10 2006 07:47 AM
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Damn, I can't believe I sat and read through this entire thread.
Personally, I would boo a lack of perceived effort by a player. I want them to play well, but I can accept lack of results as long as the player is giving an honest effort (as best I can perceive). If sub-par results persist, then I certainly would expect the team to make changes in playing time (benching, trading, cutting), but I will not boo a player that is giving their best effort.
I was a pretty vocal critic of Rey Ordonez during his time with the Mets. I thought he had no business being a starting shortstop at the major league level. He was a pathetic offensive player and defensively he was more flash than substance in my view. I was happy when the Mets finally freed themselves of him, but I would have never booed him for his lack of overall production.
I have never perceived a lack of effort on the part of Beltran.
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Johnny Dickshot
Apr 10 2006 07:52 AM
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I boo boneheaded plays, shit efforts and the other team.
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TheOldMole
Apr 10 2006 09:30 AM
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Are the boos still as heavy?
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duan
Apr 10 2006 09:31 AM
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"I think that in some small way they are afraid to boo their home team guys. Possibly they are insecure people residing in a fly-over state and they have a small market mentality. Maybe they think that if they boo, then players won't want to come there and then all they'll have is an ugly piece of post-modern stainless steel to identify with. I don't know. It's a theory."
Or maybe they recognise that by having a player friendly atmosphere they've had the opportunity to achieve far above what the Cardinals (going by market size, spending power etc) would be expected to achieve.
In Ireland the word "supporter" is interchangeable with "fan". That's how it should be isn't it?
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soupcan
Apr 10 2006 10:18 AM
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duan wrote:
Or maybe they recognise that by having a player friendly atmosphere they've had the opportunity to achieve far above what the Cardinals (going by market size, spending power etc) would be expected to achieve. |
So now we have to sacrifice our freedom of expression so our teams can be deemed worthy of throwing $100 million dollars at some underachieving jerk?
duan wrote:
In Ireland the word "supporter" is interchangeable with "fan". That's how it should be isn't it? |
Sure why not? But now that I 'support' the team I can't show dissatisfaction with them?
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Edgy DC
Apr 10 2006 10:41 AM
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I boo when a bad song wins the video juke box, when drunk people run on the field, and when stupid Mr. Burns wins the fan drawing.
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KC
Apr 10 2006 11:11 AM
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I try not to boo the Mets. I've booed the Jets and Knicks live many times.
I don't really care if someone is booing around me at a game so long as it's
not too obnoxious. We've all seen the guy $50 into Budweisers stand on his
seat and yell at player x who didn't execute something to his fancy only to
be told by someone a couple of rows back to sit down and shut up only to
have the section reminded that he paid for his beers and his tickets and
his parking and been watching for thirty beers, I mean years, only to finally
have him shut up and sit down and if you're lucky pass out.
Boo
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duan
Apr 10 2006 12:35 PM
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"So now we have to sacrifice our freedom of expression so our teams can be deemed worthy of throwing $100 million dollars at some underachieving jerk? "
No, you don't, but you'll understand why Albert PujolsJim Edmonds/Scott Rolen/Mark Mulder will sign in St. Louis for less money then they could get on the open market.
[and yes, I know Pujols hasn't been a FA but his 7 year deal was definitely a good one for the cards]
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Elster88
Apr 10 2006 12:40 PM
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soupcan wrote:
| ="duan"]Or maybe they recognise that by having a player friendly atmosphere they've had the opportunity to achieve far above what the Cardinals (going by market size, spending power etc) would be expected to achieve. |
So now we have to sacrifice our freedom of expression so our teams can be deemed worthy of throwing $100 million dollars at some underachieving jerk?
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Freedom of expression? You can't be serious. That's what you're resorting to now?
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soupcan
Apr 10 2006 02:53 PM
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Saying 'Freedom of Expression' kind of gives it a weight that I don't intend, but yeah, if my freedom to express myself (to 'BOO!') must be supressed - by me - in the interest of allowing the team I am a fan of (and a supporter of) to sign a player that otherwise wouldn't sign with my team if I did 'Boo!' - then yeah. that's what I'm resorting to.
Again I don't see why these athletes should be treated with kid gloves. They make a LOT of money and part of the reason they do is because their work environment is often times a very uncomfortable place. They are paid to produce no matter the atmosphere. And they know it and they accept it..
Maybe I'm a jerk, maybe I shouldn't boo a hometown guy, but no matter what I should be allowed to, it should be accepted and the player I'm booing should be able to deal with it and produce in spite of it.
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 10 2006 02:56 PM
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Should be able to, yes. But what if he can't? Doesn't it then become counterproductive to your interests in having a successful player on a successful team?
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Edgy DC
Apr 10 2006 02:57 PM
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Screw the rich! Their dogs, too!
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TheOldMole
Apr 10 2006 03:03 PM
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Is that screwing the pooch?
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soupcan
Apr 10 2006 03:04 PM
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Yancy Street Gang wrote:
Should be able to, yes. But what if he can't? Doesn't it then become counterproductive to your interests in having a successful player on a successful team? |
I guess it is counterproductive, yes.
| ="Edgy DC"]Screw the rich! Their dogs, too! |
I don't have issue with them making the money.I have issue with them having a sense of entitlement once they've taken money. The people in the stands are the reason they are making those sums. If they want to boo these guys, these guys should deal with it. The players are going to have the last laugh anyway.
I don't have a problem with their dogs.
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Edgy DC
Apr 10 2006 03:19 PM
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I don't make much. I think I'm entitled to not to have nasty crap screamed at me, also. Not because of what I make, simply taste, decency, and the social contract. I think everybody feels they're entitled to that. I think the people who believe they can buy their way into a new level of entitlement are fans reasoning that they bought a ticket, they're entitled to satisfying results and to abuse those who aren't able to produce them.
Even people booing the other team is often just a pantomime, rarely vile in the way of a fans turning on a struglling home-team player. And if they do turn it up --- racial abuse or villification along the order of John Rocker returning to Shea, I'm really embarrassed.
Nonetheless, they do deal with it. I'm not sure how it is you're arguing that they don't.
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soupcan
Apr 10 2006 07:29 PM
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="Edgy DC"]I don't make much. I think I'm entitled to not to have nasty crap screamed at me, also. Not because of what I make, simply taste, decency, and the social contract. I think everybody feels they're entitled to that. I think the people who believe they can buy their way into a new level of entitlement are fans reasoning that they bought a ticket, they're entitled to satisfying results and to abuse those who aren't able to produce them.
Even people booing the other team is often just a pantomime, rarely vile in the way of a fans turning on a struglling home-team player. And if they do turn it up --- racial abuse or villification along the order of John Rocker returning to Shea, I'm really embarrassed. |
I agree that you shouldn't have nasty crap screamed at you. For many reasons, not the least of which being the fact that you are not (as far as I know) a professional athlete.
I do not walk down the street yelling nasty crap at John Q. Public. As a matter of fact, as I have stated several times in this thread, I don't yell nasty crap at anyone. When I'm at the ballpark and I choose to boo, that is exactly what I do - "BOOOOOOO!". Why do you all have such difficulty believing that? I'm really not a bad guy. I don't spit in the subway, I never litter. I say hello, please and thank to pretty much everyone I come in contact with if the moment suits it.
Again - I do not agree with your use of the word 'abuse'. Especially in the context which we are discussing. Booing an athlete at a sporting event is not abuse. Screaming nasty crap, throwing things, accosting someone - THAT is abuse. Now I thought I had been defending myself booing throughout this thread but if I have to defend people that scream profanities and throw things at players, well I can't, won't and have no reason to. I'm just as appaled at those actions as any of you. I simply boo.
| ="Edgy DC"]Nonetheless, they do deal with it. I'm not sure how it is you're arguing that they don't |
I argue that they don't because Beltran obviously is taking issue with it. Dealing with it to me means accepting the fact that he did not produce what he was paid to produce last season, fans are perturbed, they are showing their pertubedness. He may not like it but he certainly should understand it. His statements and actions early last week showed that he was pissed off he was being booed. Like he did nothing at all to deserve it. He didn't do what he took money to do and he's mad he's being called on it - Booo!
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Edgy DC
Apr 10 2006 08:11 PM
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Well, I accept your distinction of booing home players from fouler verbal abuse beyond that. But it's a distinction of degree, and when home players get booed over a period of time, it generally escalates from one to the other. That doesn't make one equal the other, though
I don't accept the logic that saying "They could do better" is not dealing with it. He tries hard (you certainly can dispute this) and gets ripped by thousands, but he's allegedly not "dealing" because he says "They can do better." The fans don't try to contextualize his results or sympathize, but boo him by the third at-bat of the season when what the team they're paying to see needs is redoubled support. That's not dealing.
We're also getting again into the logic where what makes him so disgustingly boo-able is that he responded to the booing. (When interviewed about it.)
| ]I don't have issue with them making the money.I have issue with them having a sense of entitlement once they've taken money. |
| ]He didn't do what he took money to do and he's mad he's being called on it - Booo! |
We're just going in a circle.
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Elster88
Apr 10 2006 08:17 PM
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| ="soupcan"]His statements and actions early last week showed that he was pissed off he was being booed. Like he did nothing at all to deserve it. He didn't do what he took money to do and he's mad he's being called on it - Booo! |
Has their ever been a time in your life when you put in less than 100% effort at your job?
Were you booed for that entire workday by 56,000 people in a canyon-shaped building that magnifies every noise? Were you even booed by the one person (be it a customer, client, or your boss) who didn't get your best results on that day?
Beltran has. And he was trying 100% that day. In fact, he may have been playing with a goddamn broken face that day.
I'm not trying to impugn your work ethic. As human beings, we all can't focus 100% 8 hours a day at a task we perform 5+ times a week. But who deserves to be booed more? Beltran who's trying his ass off to get a base hit, or the guy who takes an hour lunch instead of a half hour and the doctor who performs less than a completely thorough examination because he's exhausted at the end of an 8 hour shift?
______________________
That's why the idea of "It's okay to boo him because he's not earning his money" is the biggest load of bullshit in sports, when the player is busting his ass. Try getting booed (just boos, not even the rest of it) by 56K people before you boo next time. Or at least try imagining it.
Here's an interesting concept: He is earning his money whether he's hitting .200 or .350. He was paid to try his hardest.
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Willets Point
Apr 10 2006 08:58 PM
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Didn't we have a discusion about booing thread around this time last year? Maybe the Long Booing Thread can be an annual Crane Pool tradition.
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Edgy DC
Apr 10 2006 09:02 PM
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| ]...when the player is busting his ass. |
Maybe it's because I just read the Funk Congress article, but I read this as "...when the player is busting he ass."
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 11 2006 12:23 AM
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If you can't accept the boos, you can't accept the cheers.
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soupcan
Apr 11 2006 06:40 AM
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Edgy DC wrote:
We're just going in a circle. |
Agreed. Can we stop now?
| ="Elster88"]Were you booed for that entire workday by 56,000 people in a canyon-shaped building that magnifies every noise? |
I'm not a pro athlete but if I were that's what I would expect.
| ="Elster88"]Were you even booed by the one person (be it a customer, client, or your boss) who didn't get your best results on that day? |
Um, yeah. I get berated by customers if something doesn't go smoothly. Happens more than I'd like to admit. And you know what my philosophy is..? The customer is always right. Even if whatever happens is no fault of mine, I don't pass the buck, I take the 'abuse' because ultimately the customer utilized my services to get what he wanted. If for whatever reason he didn't get it because of the resources I chose to use, that's MY fault. I may have been trying hard but the bottom line is the results were not there for the customer.
| ="Elster88"]Here's an interesting concept: He is earning his money whether he's hitting .200 or .350. He was paid to try his hardest. |
No he's not. The contract he signed was based on the average numbers he's produced his entire careeer. He is NOT paid for effort he is paid for results.
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Elster88
Apr 11 2006 06:58 AM
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soupcan wrote:
| ="Elster88"]Here's an interesting concept: He is earning his money whether he's hitting .200 or .350. He was paid to try his hardest. |
No he's not. The contract he signed was based on the average numbers he's produced his entire careeer. He is NOT paid for effort he is paid for results. |
You'll have to show me the spot in a contract where a player guarantees certain statistics
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 11 2006 07:00 AM
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"He is NOT paid for effort he is paid for results."
Agreed. We all have expectations whenever a FA signs, including the team (though they like to lower their expectations since they have some CYA to do if works out disasterously). These expectations vary a little, and because most of us are optimistic we may be expecting a little too much, but they're not crazy, nor is it crazy or unreasonable to have expectations.
I think if you get off the concept that fans should sit in a ballpark as silently as a Quaker prayer session, and recognize that they're free to tell "Yay," then they're free to express disapproval, too. Doesnt even have to be Booing, either. Seems to me that if it were customary to express disapproval simply by voicing nothing, you boo-haters would admonish the Silent Minority by telling them "You awful people just stayed harmfully silent when Beltran hit into that DP last night--you had to know how much Carlos depends on your screaming encouragement at him at times when he feels bad himself, and when he went into a rage after the game at not getting the love he expects from us, and said that he hates playing here because of the low level of cheers for hitting into DPs, well, I blame you for sending him that hateful message of silence."
Fans boo, and they cheer, and that's the way it is, and ballplayers need to deal with it as a part of their job, just as they need to deal with inside fastballs, and bad umpiring, and managerial decisions they happen not to like. It's a part of the game, and it's not going away any time soon. It would be swell if in addition to making more money per season and getting more perks of fame than any of us will earn in our lifetimes, the players' other ambitions were also fulfilled, but sometimes bad things happen to good athletes, and they need to accept it and stop all the whining.
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 11 2006 07:05 AM
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I absolutely agree that they shouldn't whine about being booed. It doesn't help their cause at all, and they should understand that, fair or not, it's part of the package.
I also agree that it's unrealistic to expect only Yay and never Boo. You can't have yin without yang. But booing a guy when he steps up to the plate sends a different message than booing him when he pops up with a runner on third. The latter says, "We don't like that you didn't get the job done" and the former says, "We don't like YOU!"
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Elster88
Apr 11 2006 07:08 AM
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| ]Seems to me that if it were customary to express disapproval simply by voicing nothing, you boo-haters would admonish the Silent Minority by telling them "You awful people just stayed harmfully silent when Beltran hit into that DP last night--you had to know how much Carlos depends on your screaming encouragement at him at times when he feels bad himself, and when he went into a rage after the game at not getting the love he expects from us, and said that he hates playing here because of the low level of cheers for hitting into DPs, well, I blame you for sending him that hateful message of silence." |
Where do you come up with this crap?
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 11 2006 07:14 AM
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It's obviously more intelligent and rational to boo someone for something he does rather than something he is, but there are players (Rojas, Bonilla, Sisk come to mind) who did bad things so consistently that fans understandable came to dislike them, or at least dislike their being used in games.
Nothing would be more frustrating to me than to treat Rojas with polite deference and then to hear his manager after the game saying "Everyone in the ballpark supports my use of Rojas in tight ballgames. I haven't heard anything from anyone, other than you reporters asking me moronic impertinent questions, to suggest otherwise."
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 11 2006 07:16 AM
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Elster88 wrote:
| ]Seems to me that if it were customary to express disapproval simply by voicing nothing, you boo-haters would admonish the Silent Minority by telling them "You awful people just stayed harmfully silent when Beltran hit into that DP last night--you had to know how much Carlos depends on your screaming encouragement at him at times when he feels bad himself, and when he went into a rage after the game at not getting the love he expects from us, and said that he hates playing here because of the low level of cheers for hitting into DPs, well, I blame you for sending him that hateful message of silence." |
Where do you come up with this crap? |
The voices in my head get beamed from an uncharted planet. Today's signals are particularly strong.
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 11 2006 07:23 AM
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My daughter also says that she gets wisdom beamed into her head from God in heaven. The latest bit of wisdom was that clams do in fact give milk.
But Bret's point isn't as crappy as Elster suggests. If silence was viewed as derogatory, and it's not hard to imagine a culture where that could be the case, silent fans would be criticized by the same people who criticize booers. Of course, they'd be harder to notice; it's easy to drown out the sounds of silence.
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soupcan
Apr 11 2006 07:40 AM
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Elster88 wrote:
You'll have to show me the spot in a contract where a player guarantees certain statistics |
Oh it's not in the contract. If it were nobody would be making anything close to what they are. But it certainly is implied. If it weren't then how come I can't sign a contract with the Mets for $120 million then?
I'll try my best, I won't have great results but I promise to go out there everyday and give it my best effort.
When they gave him that contract did they say all we want is effort? If you give us a .268 average and 16 homeruns as long as you try hard that'll be great?
I don't think so.
| ="Yancy Street Gang"]But booing a guy when he steps up to the plate sends a different message than booing him when he pops up with a runner on third. The latter says, "We don't like that you didn't get the job done" and the former says, "We don't like YOU!" |
He was getting booed for underperforming last year.
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Elster88
Apr 11 2006 09:00 AM
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soupcan wrote:
| ="Elster88"]You'll have to show me the spot in a contract where a player guarantees certain statistics |
Oh it's not in the contract. If it were nobody would be making anything close to what they are. But it certainly is implied. If it weren't then how come I can't sign a contract with the Mets for $120 million then? |
Because if they didn't sign him at that amount, someone else would've signed him.
soupcan wrote:
When they gave him that contract did they say all we want is effort? |
Yes.
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cooby
Apr 11 2006 09:09 AM
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If all they want is effort, not results, where can I sign up?
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 11 2006 09:12 AM
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I'd sign up too, but it's too much effort.
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Elster88
Apr 11 2006 09:14 AM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 11 2006 09:16 AM
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cooby wrote:
If all they want is effort, not results, where can I sign up? |
This is getting ridiculous. Do I really have to explain? They signed him to do his best, and were expecting a certain output based on what they had observed previously.
I doubt your history in baseball will get you an offer cooby.
These are simple concepts.
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Elster88
Apr 11 2006 09:15 AM
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How about we shrink the creepy old lady's head?
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cooby
Apr 11 2006 09:15 AM
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Yeah, what they observed in the playoffs the previous year.
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soupcan
Apr 11 2006 09:21 AM
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| ="Elster88"] This is getting ridiculous. |
Agreed.
| ="Elster88"]Do I really have to explain? They signed him to do his best, and were expecting a certain output based on what they had observed previously. |
That's right and he's not giving them (the owners, the fans) what they expected.
| ="Elster88"]These are simple concepts. |
Agreed.
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KC
Apr 11 2006 11:23 AM
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I didn't wanna say anything, but that Joan Payson mugshot is kinda creepy.
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cooby
Apr 11 2006 11:24 AM
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Yeah, I was kinda thinking, when I hit 12,000, if nobody minds, I'd like to go back to being just Linus.
Though I do like the picture and I do like Mrs. Payson
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cooby
Apr 11 2006 11:25 AM
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Holy crap, I think it just got bigger!
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OlerudOwned
Apr 11 2006 11:26 AM
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cooby wrote:
Holy crap, I think it just got bigger! |
Conquest!
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 11 2006 11:31 AM
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I hear you, cooby. I'm looking forward to a time when I have enough posts to get rid of the graphics above my own head.
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soupcan
Apr 11 2006 12:46 PM
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And here I am pining away for Ron Swoboda.
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Johnny Dickshot
Apr 11 2006 01:24 PM
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I always found Joan Payson a little creepy.
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cooby
Apr 11 2006 01:31 PM
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I'll try to get to 12,000 ASAP otherwise Joan will be haunting all our dreams
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 11 2006 01:32 PM
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Johnny Dickshot wrote:
I always found Joan Payson a little creepy. |
When you get to be my age you'll see her as a hottie.
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cooby
Apr 11 2006 01:33 PM
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She looks like my one aunt
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 11 2006 01:36 PM
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cooby wrote:
She looks like my one aunt |
Hottie.
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Elster88
Apr 11 2006 01:38 PM
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Yancy, stay the hell away from the Pretty thread.
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Benjamin Grimm
Apr 11 2006 01:39 PM
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I think that's a diss on cooby's aunt.
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cooby
Apr 11 2006 01:41 PM
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I think I just got an idea for the pretty thread, and it ain't a cat with a gypsy bandana...
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Johnny Dickshot
Apr 11 2006 01:46 PM
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She looks quite a bit like Miss Piggy's homlier sister.
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cooby
Apr 11 2006 01:48 PM
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sigh, poor Joanie
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Bret Sabermetric
Apr 11 2006 02:47 PM
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cooby wrote:
She looks like my one aunt |
I'm hoping for a Larry David "Beloved Aunt" episode typo here.
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