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Shitty Field

batmagadanleadoff
Apr 03 2019 11:07 AM

https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/even-the-mets-home-stadium-is-mocking-them-11554292802

Ceetar
Apr 03 2019 12:05 PM
Re: Shitty Field

sorry, what about Citizen's Bank Ballpark now?

Lefty Specialist
Apr 03 2019 01:51 PM
Re: Shitty Field

Rupert's paywall won't let me see. But I can imagine the gist.

kcmets
Apr 03 2019 02:01 PM
Re: Shitty Field

Except for the Jackie Robinson slant I'm pretty much ok with Citi after ten

years of settling in. What's Jared's main points?



I know several Yankee fans that like Citi much more than The Armory.

Ceetar
Apr 03 2019 02:24 PM
Re: Shitty Field

We discussed it late last season.



Citi Field depresses exit velocity, and no one's totally sure why.



It depresses it for both teams of course.



I assume that's what it's about. paywall'd as well.

kcmets
Apr 03 2019 02:30 PM
Re: Shitty Field

It's windy there. Even when there's no wind, it's windy there.

nymr83
Apr 03 2019 02:55 PM
Re: Shitty Field

why is something that favors pitching over hitting "shitty"?

dgwphotography
Apr 03 2019 03:00 PM
Re: Shitty Field

Man, they have shitty developers. Just view the page source and you can read the whole article.

batmagadanleadoff
Apr 03 2019 03:20 PM
Re: Shitty Field


why is something that favors pitching over hitting "shitty"?


Ask David Wright.

kcmets
Apr 03 2019 03:24 PM
Re: Shitty Field

=dgwphotography post_id=6253 time=1554325238 user_id=78]
Man, they have shitty developers. Just view the page source and you can read the whole article.


Brilliant!

smg58
Apr 03 2019 03:53 PM
Re: Shitty Field

Baseball Reference's park factors have Citi Field consistently in the mid-90s, with 100 being average, except for last year which was about 90. On the whole, that qualifies as a great big so what. The drop last year might have had something to do with the stadium, but it's also possible that the calculation of the factor might have been skewed by the enormous disparity between the performance of the Mets' pitchers and hitters. (Unless people think DeGrom was overrated and Jay Bruce got a raw deal?)



ESPN on the other hand had Citi's runs at 75% relative to an average ballpark last year, which is ridiculously implausible.

Ceetar
Apr 03 2019 05:35 PM
Re: Shitty Field

it's the exit velocity, whether or not that translates to reduced offense. It's not necessarily a problem, but if the Mets could figure out what was causing it, maybe they'd be able to tap into a bit of a home field advantage.

Frayed Knot
Apr 03 2019 06:02 PM
Re: Shitty Field

I have no idea how a stadium can affect exit velocity.

And if wind is a factor then it's not really exit velocity that they're measuring but rather the speed of the ball sometime after it exits the bat.

Fman99
Apr 03 2019 06:04 PM
Re: Shitty Field

Paywall. I SHEE NOSSSSHHHHHING

nymr83
Apr 03 2019 06:56 PM
Re: Shitty Field

Frayed Knot wrote:

I have no idea how a stadium can affect exit velocity.

And if wind is a factor then it's not really exit velocity that they're measuring but rather the speed of the ball sometime after it exits the bat.


maybe hitters are seeing the ball poorly - the "batters eye" isn't as clean/unobstructed as elsewhere and therefore they are getting less on it on average?



that still wouldnt be a problem in my book.



I would think a pitcher's park actually favors a team over the course of a season. if a typical home game has less scoring your guys should have to throw less pitches over the course of the year keeping them fresher.

Frayed Knot
Apr 03 2019 08:05 PM
Re: Shitty Field

=kcmets post_id=6255 time=1554326647 user_id=53]
=dgwphotography post_id=6253 time=1554325238 user_id=78]
Man, they have shitty developers. Just view the page source and you can read the whole article.


Brilliant!


What does 'view the page source' mean?

Edgy MD
Apr 03 2019 08:25 PM
Re: Shitty Field

Which Web browser to you use?

dgwphotography
Apr 04 2019 07:07 AM
Re: Shitty Field

Frayed Knot wrote:



Man, they have shitty developers. Just view the page source and you can read the whole article.

Brilliant!


What does 'view the page source' mean?


Right-click anywhere on the page, and click "View Source" It will show the page in html.

smg58
Apr 04 2019 08:24 AM
Re: Shitty Field

OK, so can we agree that "unfathomable nightmare" is an exaggeration?



I'm curious that disparities in the performance of Mets' pitchers were not reported. If it were solely the park, you would see similar splits. So the writer either ignored half the story, or conveniently refrained from mentioning it.



One possible explanation is that the Mets have employed a disproportionate number of the kind of players who would be hurt the most by the park. But I'm not sure who those players would be. It's not like the Mets have cornered the market on one-dimensional, all-or-nothing swingers. It would be worth digging into the stats further to see which players have the biggest home/road splits and which ones have the smallest. You know, investigative reporting.

seawolf17
Apr 04 2019 08:34 AM
Re: Shitty Field

=Ceetar post_id=6272 time=1554334525 user_id=102]
it's the exit velocity, whether or not that translates to reduced offense. It's not necessarily a problem, but if the Mets could figure out what was causing it, maybe they'd be able to tap into a bit of a home field advantage.



This is the thing that's bothered me for years. Both teams have to play by the same rules in these games. Make it work, Mets.

batmagadanleadoff
Apr 04 2019 08:52 AM
Re: Shitty Field

It's not the same and it doesnt even out. The bigger the park is, the more skill that's taken out. The more luck factors in and the more of a crapshoot each game is, which is especially a problem in baseball, which is already teeming with luck. This might help a perennially underfunded team that can't compete on a level playing field. But big market teams shouldn't build cavernous pitcher's parks, which the Mets are and Citi Field was and maybe, still is. But whaddya expect when you let Jeff Wilpon run wild? You get a plastic Camden Yards knockoff with the stupidest gimmicky dimensions ever and the ugliest scoreboards in all of baseball.



Or you know, Jake deGrom couldve joined this forum, beat me to it, and instead, named this thread "Pretty Field'.

Lefty Specialist
Apr 04 2019 09:14 AM
Re: Shitty Field

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=6348 time=1554389570 user_id=68]
But whaddya expect when you let Jeff Wilpon run wild? You get a plastic Camden Yards knockoff with the stupidest gimmicky dimensions ever and the ugliest scoreboards in all of baseball.



This. The dimensions were gimmicky and were so bad they had to move the fences in not once, but twice.



And that is absolutely the worst scoreboard in baseball.

Willets Point
Apr 04 2019 09:35 AM
Re: Shitty Field

I'm pretty sure that I predicted in 2009 that the ballpark would not have the same corporate name sponsor in ten years, so here's me, admitting I was wrong.

smg58
Apr 04 2019 09:41 AM
Re: Shitty Field


It's not the same and it doesnt even out. The bigger the park is, the more skill that's taken out.


I was actually happy to see the Mets buck the trend of building bandboxes that took most of the "skill" out of hitting home runs. Places like Camden Yards, for example.

batmagadanleadoff
Apr 04 2019 10:04 AM
Re: Shitty Field



It's not the same and it doesnt even out. The bigger the park is, the more skill that's taken out.


I was actually happy to see the Mets buck the trend of building bandboxes that took most of the "skill" out of hitting home runs. Places like Camden Yards, for example.


I'm sure Jimmy Wynn was quite pleased to have to play in the Astrodome for so long. It might've cost him a spot in Cooperstown.



I don't like bandboxes either. I don't like extreme stadiums in general. But you can build for a bandbox. You get top flight pitchers who, the idea is, could pitch anywhere. That's what the Phillies did 10 or so years ago, though they could rake too. But what do you do in a cavern? The ideal player there doesnt exist. He'd be someone who hits the ball so far so often that he'd hit 85 HRs in a neutral park.

Edgy MD
Apr 04 2019 10:21 AM
Re: Shitty Field

There's certainly good players to get if your home is a big field.



1) Good pitchers whose main vulnerability is to the deep fly.



2) Fleet-footed Willie McGee-type outfielders, who on defense can cover more real-estate than the opposition, and on offense can hit one into the gap and run forever.



3) Anybody else that's good. The deeper the park, the better. Bandboxes stink. The smaller the park, the more it makes bad hitters look good, without proportionately making good hitters better.

nymr83
Apr 04 2019 10:23 AM
Re: Shitty Field




It's not the same and it doesnt even out. The bigger the park is, the more skill that's taken out.


I was actually happy to see the Mets buck the trend of building bandboxes that took most of the "skill" out of hitting home runs. Places like Camden Yards, for example.


I'm sure Jimmy Wynn was quite pleased to have to play in the Astrodome for so long. It might've cost him a spot in Cooperstown.



I don't like bandboxes either. I don't like extreme stadiums in general. But you can build for a bandbox. You get top flight pitchers who, the idea is, could pitch anywhere. That's what the Phillies did 10 or so years ago, though they could rake too. But what do you do in a cavern? The ideal player there doesnt exist. He'd be someone who hits the ball so far so often that he'd hit 85 HRs in a neutral park.


what do you do in a cavern? you get Lagares to play CF. you get gap-hitters who have more gap to hit to.

seawolf17
Apr 04 2019 10:31 AM
Re: Shitty Field

Edgy MD wrote:

There's certainly good players to get if your home is a big field.



1) Good pitchers whose main vulnerability is to the deep fly.



2) Fleet-footed Willie McGee-type outfielders, who on defense can cover more real-estate than the opposition, and on offense can hit one into the gap and run forever.



3) Anybody else that's good. The deeper the park, the better. Bandboxes stink. The smaller the park, the more it makes bad hitters look good, without proportionately making good hitters better.


Bingo. The mid-80s Cardinals: Coleman, McGee, Van Slyke left to right. Coleman obviously got worse in the field through the years, but McGee and Van Slyke were the real deals. And they averaged 30 triples a year between them.

batmagadanleadoff
Apr 04 2019 10:36 AM
Re: Shitty Field

Busch Stadium wasn't a cavern. And the myth about Whitey Herzog's Missouri teams being tailored to their parks was just that, a myth, Those teams were so talented, they would've won anywhere.

batmagadanleadoff
Apr 04 2019 10:39 AM
Re: Shitty Field

Edgy MD wrote:

There's certainly good players to get if your home is a big field.



1) Good pitchers whose main vulnerability is to the deep fly.



2) Fleet-footed Willie McGee-type outfielders, who on defense can cover more real-estate than the opposition, and on offense can hit one into the gap and run forever.



3) Anybody else that's good. The deeper the park, the better. Bandboxes stink. The smaller the park, the more it makes bad hitters look good, without proportionately making good hitters better.

Cavernous parks make every pitcher look better. And getting Willie McGee in the prime of his career when he was putting up MVP caliber numbers ( though not as MVP caliber as Dwight Gooden) is easier said than done. Because every other team would also want that Willie McGee.

Edgy MD
Apr 04 2019 10:56 AM
Re: Shitty Field

Yes, a canyon makes every pitcher look better, but it makes guys whose main vulnerability is the deep fly look better still.



And they don't make every pitcher look better to the extent that a bandbox makes every hitter look better, but helps lesser hitters improve more than better hitters.

batmagadanleadoff
Apr 04 2019 11:05 AM
Re: Shitty Field

Caverns reduce offense. There's no getting around that. The less runs, the more luck. It's no coincidence that the Dome Astros spent virtually their entire history not straying too far from .500 ball.

nymr83
Apr 04 2019 02:13 PM
Re: Shitty Field

do you have data to back your assertions up?

MFS62
Apr 04 2019 02:50 PM
Re: Shitty Field

Rip this fucking place down and build a place where they can win. (And a place where they can score enough runs to be exciting would help, too.)

Later

smg58
Apr 04 2019 08:27 PM
Re: Shitty Field

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=6361 time=1554393884 user_id=68]I'm sure Jimmy Wynn was quite pleased to have to play in the Astrodome for so long. It might've cost him a spot in Cooperstown.



I'm just barely old enough to remember him. He's an interesting case in that his approach to hitting -- low average but regularly walked over 100 times a season -- was about thirty years before its time. And park or no park, he clearly didn't get enough respect in his prime. In 1969 he put up a .269/.436/.507 line and was 15th in the MVP voting. I doubt there were 14 better players that year.

Edgy MD
Apr 04 2019 09:23 PM
Re: Shitty Field

=MFS62 post_id=6436 time=1554411007 user_id=60]
Rip this fucking place down and build a place where they can win. (And a place where they can score enough runs to be exciting would help, too.)

Later



And let's be certain to cut off all of our noses to spite all of our faces, too.

G-Fafif
Apr 05 2019 05:44 AM
Re: Shitty Field

Article explores how Mets can't score at Citi Field, Mets open at Citi Field by not scoring. That's some prescient journalism right there.

Ceetar
Apr 05 2019 07:49 AM
Re: Shitty Field


Frayed Knot wrote:




Brilliant!


What does 'view the page source' mean?


Right-click anywhere on the page, and click "View Source" It will show the page in html.


yeah, but the article isn't in there? You're actually seeing the text?

dgwphotography
Apr 05 2019 09:40 AM
Re: Shitty Field



Frayed Knot wrote:





What does 'view the page source' mean?


Right-click anywhere on the page, and click "View Source" It will show the page in html.


yeah, but the article isn't in there? You're actually seeing the text?

Yes - I read the entire article - Each paragraph is between the

tags

dgwphotography
Apr 05 2019 09:42 AM
Re: Shitty Field

In the source, you'll see '

' that begins the hidden part.

Ceetar
Apr 05 2019 09:49 AM
Re: Shitty Field


In the source, you'll see '
' that begins the hidden part.




thanks. I guess I suck at scrolling. I searched for the text above it but it didn't seem to continue.

A Boy Named Seo
Apr 05 2019 10:02 AM
Re: Shitty Field

The article says the the wind seems to pour in hard and low from CF and push hard to RF. The players notice it. Nimmo says it reminds him of the goddamn Wyoming plains.



Citi faces more towards the bay than Shea. They said Sandy was looking at architectural changes that could knock the wind down. Maybe they need a big ass barrier between the end of the left field bleachers and the scoreboard. #BuildTheWall



But like FK said, that shouldnt' affect exit velo, so it seems there might 2 issues at play.



https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Nn0AAOSwScdZyAPc/s-l1600.jpg>

A Boy Named Seo
Apr 05 2019 10:03 AM
Re: Shitty Field

Also, good call, DGW. Hilarious that the page source shows where we shouldn't be able to read. LOL

Ceetar
Apr 05 2019 11:35 AM
Re: Windy Field

Why are we so sure it wouldn't affect EV? It seems to infer that most of the 'wind' is out in the outfield, but is that true? It hasn't been windy any of the times I've been on the field, but swinging into the wind has to impact bat speed right?



Humidity would be the other thing, but you'd hope they'd be able to measure that?

batmagadanleadoff
Apr 05 2019 11:38 AM
Re: Shitty Field

=Ceetar post_id=6488 time=1554485754 user_id=102]
Why are we so sure it wouldn't affect EV? It seems to infer that most of the 'wind' is out in the outfield, but is that true? It hasn't been windy any of the times I've been on the field, but swinging into the wind has to impact bat speed right?



Humidity would be the other thing, but you'd hope they'd be able to measure that?

Ceetar
Apr 05 2019 11:49 AM
Best Stadium in the division

Play ball.

batmagadanleadoff
Apr 05 2019 12:04 PM
Re: Shitty Field

=Ceetar post_id=6491 time=1554486580 user_id=102]Play ball.



You'd say that even if the Mets played their home games at Gil Hodges's Little League stadium.



And this is terrible forum ettiquette. Start your own thread.

Ceetar
Apr 05 2019 12:10 PM
Reduced Exit Velocity Field

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=6495 time=1554487466 user_id=68]
=Ceetar post_id=6491 time=1554486580 user_id=102]Play ball.



You'd say that even if the Mets played their home games at Gil Hodges's Little League stadium.



And this is terrible forum ettiquette. Start your own thread.




fuck etiquette. If you want to interject your biased opinion that has nothing to do with the actual link links you post, expect push back.

batmagadanleadoff
Apr 05 2019 12:24 PM
Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 05 2019 12:29 PM

=Ceetar post_id=6496 time=1554487818 user_id=102]
=batmagadanleadoff post_id=6495 time=1554487466 user_id=68]
=Ceetar post_id=6491 time=1554486580 user_id=102]Play ball.



You'd say that even if the Mets played their home games at Gil Hodges's Little League stadium.



And this is terrible forum ettiquette. Start your own thread.




fuck etiquette. If you want to interject your biased opinion that has nothing to do with the actual link links you post, expect push back.


It's not a biased opinion and it's got everything to do with the theme of the article. Just ask any Mets hitter that has to play half the season in that stifling hitting environment and they'll surely say shitty field. Just ask David Wright what it was like to hit there in it's original incarnation, with its ridiculous Great Wall of China and gimmicky dimensions for gimmick's sake, not for some thoughtful intelligent reason that was designed to give the Mets some tactical edge. The poor bastard David Wright had to make so many adjustments to his then Hall of Fame bound swing, that maybe he ruined himself in the process. This title has nothing to do with Citi Field's aesthetics, though if I wanted to, I could write paragraphs and chapters about what a shitty field it is from that perspective as well. Great food for a sports stadium, though. I'll give them that.



But there you go. Grow up already and learn to accept some well deserved criticism going the Mets way, once in a while. Two first place finishes in 30 seasons.



And what biased opinion are you talking about anyway? All I did was to post a link to the WSJ article .

Ceetar
Apr 05 2019 12:28 PM
Best field ever constructed

wrong.

Johnny Lunchbucket
Apr 05 2019 02:34 PM
Re: Shitty Field

I don't even know what's to argue. It's a good article about a mysterious but real thing.



What I though was interesting was the bit about how moving the fences in had the unintended consequences of subtracting whatever offensive benefits a huge home field provided: Fewer balls dropping for hits. That to me sucks.



When CF first opened I felt like they actually built it for Jose Reyes, who in the old days would drive balls right to the areas of the park that were largest, perhaps resulting in more exciting baseball-- triples and inside the park dingers. I certainly prefer as a fan seeing those to home runs even if they're less offensively impactful. But Reyes was about to experience a downturn and the price paid for it was too many warning track fries for Wright.



I do think the "ultimate solution" might be to knock the damn thing over and try again somewhere else but that's 20 years down the road at earliest.

smg58
Apr 05 2019 02:57 PM
Re: Shitty Field

Like I said before, the article mentions disparities with the Mets hitters but says nothing about the splits with their pitchers. Either he forgot about half the story, or that half of the story doesn't suggest as dramatic a park effect. If the latter is true, there is an explanation that goes beyond the park.



So the Mets hit worse at Citi Field. They also have hit pretty well on the road, and the team has been more or less as good on the road as at home. So they have done a few things right.



The exit velocity is cited as a factor. The bat spends a very small amount of time exposed to the wind, so I don't see how that could be affected. But I do agree it's kind of bizarre.



"Since 2012, the Mets have the highest fly-ball percentage in the National League"

NOW we have something. We hit more fly balls than anybody else, and play in the worst park for fly balls in the league. With the fences moved in the park has lost its boost in doubles and triples, so if you can't clear the fence consistently you're going to fly out a lot with not much to show for it. And last year was so bad in part because we had three all-or-nothing swingers in Conforto, Bruce, and Frazier who, because they were compromised by injury, couldn't produce even a mediocre amount of runs. We appear to have adopted the exactly wrong philosophy to fit our park.

batmagadanleadoff
Apr 05 2019 03:16 PM
Re: Shitty Field

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote:

I don't even know what's to argue. It's a good article about a mysterious but real thing.


There's nothing here to argue, really. Only to discuss. Except for Ceetar, who can't see past the thread title and is having mental breakdowns over it. He's one post away from telling us how beautiful the Citi Field scoreboards are.



And it looks like this thread has morphed into two separate discussions: one about the WSJ article itself and one about cavernous stadiums in general. Not parks that might slightly favor pitchers, but cavernous stadiums like the original CF and the Astrodome.



And as for those inside the parkers and triples, it's true that cavernous stadiums will yield a few more of those, but not nearly enough of them to overcome the would-be doubles and HRs that would be lost -- converted into outs because the outfielders have an extra 10 or 30 feet to run those balls down.

Ceetar
Apr 05 2019 05:31 PM
Chilly Field

Lol. You're the one losing it because I changed the subject of my post. And then invented a story about David Wright. You seem to only want to discuss it as some sort of absolute disaster instead of a ballpark effect quirk.



Mets have kept the balls in different places to no (apparent) effect, but maybe all of flushing is super humid.



Also you can note that without this unanticipated effect, there's a good chance the original dimensions of Citi Field are pretty much fine.

Methead
Apr 05 2019 08:54 PM
Re: Shitty Field

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote:

When CF first opened I felt like they actually built it for Jose Reyes, who in the old days would drive balls right to the areas of the park that were largest


This is exactly what I have always thought as well



Although it doesn't make much sense to design a ballpark to suit just one player, whose greatest asset is his speed, making right field huge when you've got another young guy whose greatest asset is his right field gap power, but then again all my friends and neighbors have heard me rant about this many times

dgwphotography
Apr 05 2019 10:51 PM
Re: Shitty Field

This thread is what happens when there's no game on an in-season Friday night.

nymr83
Apr 05 2019 11:42 PM
Re: Shitty Field


This thread is what happens when there's no game on an in-season Friday night.


the day after the home opener is an offday ..why? so that if it rains out you can play the next day and everyone who bought a ticket can still say they were at the "opener"? that is a good reason not to play on a Wednesday. on a friday? it sucks.

Gwreck
Apr 06 2019 12:46 AM
Re: Shitty Field

the day after the home opener is an offday ..why? so that if it rains out you can play the next day and everyone who bought a ticket can still say they were at the "opener"? that is a good reason not to play on a Wednesday. on a friday? it sucks.


That is precisely the reason that opening day typically has an off day afterwards. And given that the Mets sell out opening day, every year, at a premium price on every ticket, it seems that there are quite a few people who care about that.



The Mets could presumably have their home opener as a Friday day game, with the off day on Thursday instead. That also though requires that the first Saturday game be a night game so the opener could be rescheduled as a doubleheader that Saturday. The Mets home opener was a Friday in 2016 and that'd be my preference.