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Syndergaard’s Catcher

Gwreck Sep 09 2019 05:29 PM

Interesting story in the Post, citing “industry sources.” https://nypost.com/2019/09/09/noah-syndergaard-confronts-mets-bosses-over-wilson-ramos-frustration/ To me, this stinks of the Mets once again leaking unflattering information about a player for a stupid reason.

G-Fafif Sep 09 2019 06:32 PM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

Wilson Ramos is nobody's personal catcher but everybody's community hitter.

Edgy MD Sep 09 2019 08:02 PM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

Interesting story in the Post, citing “industry sources.” https://nypost.com/2019/09/09/noah-syndergaard-confronts-mets-bosses-over-wilson-ramos-frustration/ To me, this stinks of the Mets once again leaking unflattering information about a player for a stupid reason. What reason is that? I'm not sure I would agree with the inference that this was an intentional leak.

Gwreck Sep 09 2019 08:18 PM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

I think the Mets don't see Syndergaard as remaining with the team long-term and portraying him negatively in this way is fairly benign towards trade value while having the effect of making Syndergaard look bad in the eyes of the fanbase. Syndergaard would hardly be the first player whose long-term status with the team was “in flux” (potential trade/contract extension looming) to have been spoken ill of by the organization. I was also surprised to see both Callaway and Van Wegenen commenting on the story to the press. I'd have just declined comment as it was an internal issue. As for whether it was an intentional leak by the organization: I suppose it could well have been a leak by another player as well. I don't think that is as likely. A deliberate leak by Syndergaard? Possible, but why? I agree the details in the story (“simmering all season,” ”half-hour sit-down,” “implored multiple times”) do not suggest an accidental leak by anyone.

Edgy MD Sep 09 2019 08:36 PM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

It just takes one of dozens and dozens of organizational execs to leak a story without the authority to do so. It happens all the time. As for players, Ramos certainly has motivation to grouse. As do other players who see him getting star treatment while they consider themselves team players. One beer too many and you're talking out of school. That kind of works against your idea of yourself as a team player, but it happens every day. Somebody just leaked from The White House that the president spends 60% of the day watching TV and tweeting.

seawolf17 Sep 09 2019 09:07 PM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

=Gwreck post_id=21390 time=1568081911 user_id=56]while having the effect of making Syndergaard look bad in the eyes of the fanbase.

I don't agree with this at all. I think the fan base is pretty united pro-Thor, and would march on Citi Field with pitchforks if he was dealt. It's not like he's saying he doesn't want to throw to Piazza or Carter; we have no attachment to Wilson Ramos, and if moving *him* to get a catcher our stud pitchers like better benefits them, then I'm all for it.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 09 2019 09:37 PM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

=seawolf17 post_id=21392 time=1568084871 user_id=91]and if moving [Ramos] to get a catcher our stud pitchers like better benefits them, then I'm all for it.

Yeah, but how many fucking chances do you get in life? The Mets already had a chance to get a better catcher -- a catcher who's a better hitter than Ramos, and that's sayin' something because Ramos can rake -- and a catcher who's a way better defender than Ramos -- all in one. That would've been JT Realmuto, who's also three years younger than Ramos, which really matters because a catcher over 30 can crater like a house of cards in the blink of an eye. But [broken record mode mainly because the issue comes up practically daily] the Wilpons are either cheap or broke and definitely incompetent. If the other team that plays in this same market were in the Mets position, Realmuto would've been wearing the evil version of the pinstripes months ago. But you get what you pay for. And the Mets are on the outside looking in, desperately clinging for a slim but not impossible chance to play in a stupid one and done (one and done in baseball, oh my god!) booby prize because first place finishes aren't what the Wilpons are all about. You have to pay for those. So once again, the Wilpons assemble a team that, on paper, was projected to win maybe 84 or 85 games and with a lot of luck, it'd win maybe 89 or 91 games and claim a stupid one and done play-in game in this contrived playoff system that exists today. Where the Mets might then have to start some unreliable pitcher like Marcus Stroman if they get to play that one and done because a wild card team doesn't have the luxury of setting up its rotation. But you get what you pay for. It's all coming home to roost because, if you remember, the consensus among the experts and pundits back in March was that the Mets wouldn't be good enough to compete with the top of the division but with a little luck, they might s snag a stupid wild card spot. Another year of squandering the incredible advantages that should come from playing in New York City. Meanwhile, the guy that defends the Wilpons' incompetence the same way he defends that scumbag in the White House, pretty much admitted that it's easier for a GM to get to the World Series when he's given an open checkbook, even though he argues the exact opposite when he defends the Wilpons.



Two first place finishes in 31 seasons.

Gwreck Sep 09 2019 11:45 PM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

You're not wrong but perhaps that is taking this off topic a bit. Seawolf raises an interesting point: are the Mets fans solidly pro-Syndergaard? And if so, would the front office still try to denigrate him regardless? Consider, eg., the “not a superstar” comment about someone else the fanbase was completely behind.

Edgy MD Sep 10 2019 04:53 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

"Not a Superstar" got re-signed for a million years. I probably did this wrong but some quick back-of-the-envelope math says that Ramos has hit .292 / .378 / .583 // .961 in Syndergaard's starts.

Johnny Lunchbucket Sep 10 2019 04:54 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

I think the Mets generally are more foolish than calculated. I also think they've been headed to divorce with Syndypaants for awhile. He is one of their most marketable assets, in part because his rep exceeds his actual results, and in part because his results represent a mix of being really great some nights but not all, with the notion of turning some to all really tantalizing. Syndergaard is also an Alderson guy, there's fewer champions for him. Finally he was a guy acquired in a trade, and guys who get traded tend to get traded.

41Forever Sep 10 2019 05:13 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

What is it, specifically, that Syndergaard doesn't like about Ramos? Game calling? Throwing out runners? I get he might think every single or walk turns into a double. Does he think he should get to pick his catchers because deGrom apparently did?

Edgy MD Sep 10 2019 06:02 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

=41Forever post_id=21399 time=1568114020 user_id=69] What is it, specifically, that Syndergaard doesn't like about Ramos? Game calling? Throwing out runners? I get he might think every single or walk turns into a double.

From the article:

[BLOCKQUOTE]
Syndergaard holds no personal animus toward Ramos. He sees this simply as what helps him perform best and, thus, what he views is best for the team. But Syndergaard feels Nido/Rivera call a better game than Ramos, help him defend the running game better and better aid in getting low strikes called.[/BLOCKQUOTE]

seawolf17 Sep 10 2019 06:47 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

Thing is, the numbers bear that out. Staff ERAs: Rivera 2.25 (small sample size, admittedly) Nido 3.76 Ramos 4.51 Nido's not throwing anybody out (just 2 in 29 attempts), so I don't see how that piece helps Syndergaard, but if guys aren't getting on base as much, I guess that mitigates it a bit. Of course, the fact that Nido's got a .549 OPS in 126 PA probably more than cancels that out. But alas.

Ceetar Sep 10 2019 07:31 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

=seawolf17 post_id=21406 time=1568119670 user_id=91] Of course, the fact that Nido's got a .549 OPS in 126 PA probably more than cancels that out. But alas.

Yeah, that's the thing these pitchers need to realize. (Same thing with the shift) the numbers generally don't support their argument.





Fangraphs has Ramos as pretty bad defensively, at least in terms of rank. He's not hurting the team much, but he's not helping as much as most others do. Nido's around the other side, a little helpful, but not exactly a whiz back there.

Edgy MD Sep 10 2019 07:42 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

What isn't clear is that if Syndergaard is reacting to the numbers (which one doesn't want to objectively make too much) or frustration borne more directly from the dynamic of the games. Could he be just looking for excuses for a bad start? And he willing to improve his catcher defense by two clicks, if it means a 3-5 click dropoff in offense. If Accardo/Callaway/Van Wengenen suspect that there's something to that last one, it's not surprising that he hasn't found satisfaction. But if he's really complained three steps up the ladder like that, it's also unsurprising that the story got out. The press corps may have a lot of over-bombastic tools, but they're still pros.

41Forever Sep 10 2019 09:33 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

Edgy MD wrote: =41Forever post_id=21399 time=1568114020 user_id=69] What is it, specifically, that Syndergaard doesn't like about Ramos? Game calling? Throwing out runners? I get he might think every single or walk turns into a double. From the article: [BLOCKQUOTE] Syndergaard holds no personal animus toward Ramos. He sees this simply as what helps him perform best and, thus, what he views is best for the team. But Syndergaard feels Nido/Rivera call a better game than Ramos, help him defend the running game better and better aid in getting low strikes called.[/BLOCKQUOTE]

Thank you!

metsmarathon Sep 10 2019 09:50 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

so, i'm not entirely sure my math is correct here. but bear me out. nido has a ~.550 OPS and ramos has a 0.800 OPS. ramos has a .363 OBP and .438 SLG. nido has a .232 OBP and a .317 SLG. in the same 5 plate appearances, ramos reaches base 1.82 times, whereas nido reaches 1.16 times. in the same 4 at bats, ramos gains 1.74 bases, whereas nido gains 1.27. the difference between these players, offensively, over the course of a game is... half a base or so...? maybe a full base if you think you can add the partial contribution of OBP to the partial contribution of SLG. what i'm saying is, that whatever offensive contribution ramos has over nido, in the course of a single game, is not at all overweighing the 0.75 runs in cERA difference. and if that cERA effect is greater for syndergaard, for whatever reasons, then the offset is even farther. basically, it's not at all unreasonable to think that syndergaard, and the mets, might be better off with nido catching.

Ceetar Sep 10 2019 10:00 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

well, these broad value stats don't typically work on that granular a level but fWAR incorporates catchers defense. Even factoring in playing time, Ramos would be nearly a full win better over just the amount of time Nido has played. That's 3-4 wins over a full season. for the team. 3-4 wins. So like, Syndergaard could have Nido every game if he likes but it'd cost the team roughly a win to do so. Is there non-statistical improvement to be gained from that comfort level? that placebo effect? Sure, maybe. Especially if it's the only guy having an issue with Ramos and you can use it strategically to rest Ramos and have him 'better' the other games for being rested and all that.

metsmarathon Sep 10 2019 11:27 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

but if syndergaard is two wins worse with ramos, it balances out.

Ceetar Sep 10 2019 12:04 PM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

=metsmarathon post_id=21425 time=1568136464 user_id=83] but if syndergaard is two wins worse with ramos, it balances out.

Only if it's true.

Centerfield Sep 10 2019 04:15 PM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

Justin Turner is lazy and doesn't hustle. Ike Davis parties too late. Matt Harvey is a head case and parties late with models. Wilmer Flores has arthritis. All of this comes out as the players are into their arbitration years and nearing free agency. Yup.

Ceetar Sep 10 2019 07:52 PM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

=Centerfield post_id=21448 time=1568153706 user_id=65] Justin Turner is lazy and doesn't hustle. Ike Davis parties too late. Matt Harvey is a head case and parties late with models. Wilmer Flores has arthritis. All of this comes out as the players are into their arbitration years and nearing free agency. Yup.

now do the other teams?

Gwreck Sep 11 2019 12:49 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

Other teams are irrelevant to this point, and raising them is whataboutism at its worst.

bmfc1 Sep 11 2019 05:59 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

I just got the title of this thread: Schrödinger's cat. Nicely done, gwreck.

Frayed Knot Sep 11 2019 06:38 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

I guess this means that the Mets' plan to get rid of Syndergaard this winter is both alive and dead.

whippoorwill Sep 11 2019 06:47 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

Sounds like he has a case

Ceetar Sep 11 2019 07:40 AM Re: Syndergaard’s Catcher

this is such a nothing story, that happens probably all the time, and for some reason got leaked or needled out of someone. It's also not new, we knew Thor's feelings about it already. And there was no animosity anywhere. It was a private 'strategy' meeting and Syndergaard even said nice things about Ramos. He made a case, was rebuffed, no one on either side seems angry about it except a few loud fans and the 'need a story' media. Why are we even talking about it? We can focus on Ramos maybe, he's here next year but not even for that much. Should the Mets look to upgrade? is someone available that's not garbage? or should they look for an actual great defensive backup at least? Nido can go back to Syracuse, he hasn't been good here but he's still relatively young and inexperienced and sometimes catcher's need some time. Is there a catcher whisperer they can hire?