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Mets Retire Another Number!

G-Fafif Sep 24 2019 02:10 PM

36, for Jerry Koosman. Gets hung next year. Mickey Callaway to manage his final six games (perhaps) in 26.

Edgy MD Sep 24 2019 02:12 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

WOWBOBWOW! Eight and 17 remain mothballed, but fuck it, let's retire an active number. SNEAKY!

41Forever Sep 24 2019 02:18 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Wow. The other players with retired numbers are Hall of Famers. Kooz opens the door to a number of other players. I thought Wright would be next.

Johnny Lunchbucket Sep 24 2019 02:24 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

what? That's crazy

stevejrogers Sep 24 2019 02:24 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I guess the floodgates are about to be opened! Not that Koos isn't worthy, but those clamoring for Carter, Hernandez, Strawberry, Gooden, a joint for McGraw & Franco, and of course to officially put 24 on the wall for Willie, etc will have more fuel to their fire.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 24 2019 02:24 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

This is very strange. Wright should be next. As much as I like Jerry Koosman, I don't agree with this decision.

Johnny Lunchbucket Sep 24 2019 02:25 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Who the hell was clamoring for this?

Johnny Lunchbucket Sep 24 2019 02:25 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

The fans want 17, 16, 18, 5, 8. So fucking dumb

Frayed Knot Sep 24 2019 02:26 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Who the hell was clamoring for this? The Committee for the Advancement of Ceremonies

nymr83 Sep 24 2019 02:39 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Frayed Knot wrote: Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Who the hell was clamoring for this? The Committee for the Advancement of Ceremonies Yeah, someone who saw not enough dates circled on next year's calendar.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 24 2019 02:46 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Fuck youse all. Kooz fucking deserves it 10 times over. Anybody here mentions Gary Carter and his two good Mets seasons and I'll projectile barf on you. Why Kooz over Wright? Because 36 should've been retired decades ago. Part of me thinks this is a joke, though.

Johnny Lunchbucket Sep 24 2019 02:50 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Maybe it shoulda but that's not the way they'd done things all these years. One the one hand they say it was a recommendation from the HoF committee and on another Wilpon's like the fans really like this. He made no secret that they're about to unleash a firehose of retired numbers so whatever "honor" Kooz is getting is to be watered down by the likes of Carter which is why high standards beat low ones.

Edgy MD Sep 24 2019 02:51 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=stevejrogers post_id=22709 time=1569356655 user_id=57] I guess the floodgates are about to be opened! Not that Koos isn't worthy, but those clamoring for Carter, Hernandez, Strawberry, Gooden, a joint for McGraw & Franco, and of course to officially put 24 on the wall for Willie, etc will have more fuel to their fire.

People are clamoring for a joint for Franco?

batmagadanleadoff Sep 24 2019 02:56 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Maybe it shoulda but that's not the way they'd done things all these years. One the one hand they say it was a recommendation from the HoF committee and on another Wilpon's like the fans really like this. He made no secret that they're about to unleash a firehose of retired numbers so whatever "honor" Kooz is getting is to be watered down by the likes of Carter which is why high standards beat low ones. Who cares how they've done things? There are no rules for this. Owning a baseball team means you get to retire whatever number you want to retire. If they want to, they can retire Dennis Ribant's number. When I say Kooz deserves to have his number retired, what I'm really saying is that if I owned the Mets, I'd retire Kooz's number. And I really really agree with you about the watering down part. I think that's what's gonna happen in the end.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 24 2019 02:57 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Edgy MD wrote: =stevejrogers post_id=22709 time=1569356655 user_id=57] I guess the floodgates are about to be opened! Not that Koos isn't worthy, but those clamoring for Carter, Hernandez, Strawberry, Gooden, a joint for McGraw & Franco, and of course to officially put 24 on the wall for Willie, etc will have more fuel to their fire. People are clamoring for a joint for Franco?

Not me. I can tell you that.

Gwreck Sep 24 2019 02:59 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I don't agree with this at all. Number retirement is for MLB Hall of Fame players. I could see — maybe — David Wright having a case due to extraordinarily bad luck combined with playing his entire career as a Met. But that's borderline. Jerry Koosman? First-ballot in the Mets Hall of Fame, sure. Number retirement? No way.

G-Fafif Sep 24 2019 03:03 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I had a conversation with the Mets director of alumni relations recently. He said a number retirement was being discussed for 2020. I kind of thought, yeah, sure Jay, whatever. Hot damn, they did it. It's admittedly a step down in the pantheon from Tom and Mike, but not a huge step down, not when you consider Koosman's role in Mets history, longevity and maybe a realization that waiting much longer would take the wind out of such a gesture. What I love most about it is 36 really has belonged to Kooz forever, more than any regularly circulated number of substance has belonged to anybody. It actually works. As for who's next, maybe give it a day and a half before making this a contest. Let Jerry have his 36 hours.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 24 2019 03:09 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=Gwreck post_id=22722 time=1569358779 user_id=56] I don't agree with this at all. Number retirement is for MLB Hall of Fame players. I could see — maybe — David Wright having a case due to extraordinarily bad luck combined with playing his entire career as a Met. But that's borderline. Jerry Koosman? First-ballot in the Mets Hall of Fame, sure. Number retirement? No way.

Oh, I see. It's for HOFers. Until your guy doesn't qualify. Like I said, there are no rules.

41Forever Sep 24 2019 03:10 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

https://live.staticflickr.com/5465/9146554724_74a2b32c12_b.jpg> One of the best-ever Mets autographs, too!

stevejrogers Sep 24 2019 03:14 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Edgy MD wrote: I guess the floodgates are about to be opened! Not that Koos isn't worthy, but those clamoring for Carter, Hernandez, Strawberry, Gooden, a joint for McGraw & Franco, and of course to officially put 24 on the wall for Willie, etc will have more fuel to their fire. People are clamoring for a joint for Franco? There were small pockets of fandom, though haven't seen much since Franco last pitched/Pedro Martinez donned #45. Mostly wanting to honor Franco along with McGraw based on Franco's longevity and being the "captain." Nothing to be taken too seriously, I just threw that out as an example of what I've seen people post about in Met number retirement threads. #7 for Kranepool also gets a lot of play among posts as well.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 24 2019 03:15 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=G-Fafif post_id=22723 time=1569359018 user_id=55] It's admittedly a step down in the pantheon from Tom and Mike, but not a huge step down, not when you consider Koosman's role in Mets history, longevity and maybe a realization that waiting much longer would take the wind out of such a gesture.

Wouldnt it be at least a small step down from Tom and Mike.for any other Met? Maybe not Wlllie Mays, but only it you consider Willie's non-Met career, which is practically all of it. But then you're on the slippery slope to Rickey Henderson and Warren Spahn.

dinosaur jesus Sep 24 2019 03:15 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I like it, and I don't have any problem with Koosman being honored before some arguably better players. Here's a list of the numbers retired by every major league team. It is mostly Hall of Famers, but I see a lot of local legends too: Randy Jones, Jim Gilliam, Ken Boyer, Dale Murphy, Jim Fregosi, Jose Cruz, Mel Harder, Rusty Staub, Willie Horton, Kent Hrbek, Bernie Williams. Those seem like good company for our guy Koosman. https://www.mlb.com/news/every-mlb-team-s-retired-numbers-c300753386

Edgy MD Sep 24 2019 03:19 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Edgy MD wrote: =stevejrogers post_id=22709 time=1569356655 user_id=57] I guess the floodgates are about to be opened! Not that Koos isn't worthy, but those clamoring for Carter, Hernandez, Strawberry, Gooden, a joint for McGraw & Franco, and of course to officially put 24 on the wall for Willie, etc will have more fuel to their fire. People are clamoring for a joint for Franco? Not me. I can tell you that.

Maybe if he gets a joint, he won't mind not getting his number retired.



Shouldn't you be working on a BatCard?

batmagadanleadoff Sep 24 2019 03:24 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Edgy MD wrote: Edgy MD wrote: =stevejrogers post_id=22709 time=1569356655 user_id=57] I guess the floodgates are about to be opened! Not that Koos isn't worthy, but those clamoring for Carter, Hernandez, Strawberry, Gooden, a joint for McGraw & Franco, and of course to officially put 24 on the wall for Willie, etc will have more fuel to their fire. People are clamoring for a joint for Franco? Not me. I can tell you that. Maybe if he gets a joint, he won't mind not getting his number retired. Shouldn't you be working on a BatCard?

I wanted to make a Batman69 card for today's 50th anniversary division clincher and have it released today, on the anniversary, but I didnt have the time so I'll probablily ditch that idea altogether. I'm tweaking a lot of cards youse saw already. Plus I've got close to 20 cards in reserve that havent been released yet.

Frayed Knot Sep 24 2019 03:25 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Just because there are no rules doesn't mean there shouldn't be standards. Not concrete ones maybe, but some kind of threshold which keeps from giving into ceremony whims and/or fan demands that more numbers be retired for the purpose of having more retired numbers. [speculation] As for why Kooz and not Wright: I suspect they're going chronologically during this new era of past player relationship mending meaning Kooz is perhaps just the first step on the way to Tug who will lead them into the Keith/Gary/Dwight/Darryl era (and can they really honor all them while ignoring Ronnie?!?). The ceremony du annum then leads to Franco & Fonzie, then Beltran (Ceetar will lead the charge!!) on the way to Wright & Reyes. And by then deGrom will be retired ...

Frayed Knot Sep 24 2019 03:25 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Just because there are no rules doesn't mean there shouldn't be standards. Not concrete ones maybe, but some kind of threshold which keeps from giving into ceremony whims and/or fan demands that more numbers be retired for the purpose of having more retired numbers. [speculation] As for why Kooz and not Wright: I suspect they're going chronologically during this new era of past player relationship mending meaning Kooz is perhaps just the first step on the way to Tug who will lead them into the Keith/Gary/Dwight/Darryl era (and can they really honor all them while ignoring Ronnie?!?). The ceremony du annum then leads to Franco & Fonzie, then Beltran (Ceetar will lead the charge!!) on the way to Wright & Reyes. And by then deGrom will be retired ...

G-Fafif Sep 24 2019 03:27 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22727 time=1569359720 user_id=68] =G-Fafif post_id=22723 time=1569359018 user_id=55] It's admittedly a step down in the pantheon from Tom and Mike, but not a huge step down, not when you consider Koosman's role in Mets history, longevity and maybe a realization that waiting much longer would take the wind out of such a gesture.

Wouldnt it be at least a small step down from Tom and Mike.for any other Met? Maybe not Wlllie Mays, but only it you consider Willie's non-Met career, which is practically all of it. But then you're on the slippery slope to Rickey Henderson and Warren Spahn.


As soon as any number besides 41 went up, it was a small step down from the single best player in Mets history. As soon as any number besides 41 and 31 goes up, then you're no longer talking about the lone transcendent player associated with a successful Met era (as if it's the fault of the '86 Mets that they had multiple players answering to that description).



The Mets to date have taken a surprisingly elitist approach. Now they're getting into the business of crowdpleasing a little, or, looked at another way, expanding who/what is worthy of the honor. They have some room to run here.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 24 2019 03:31 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I think there are standards. It's just that they vary from owners to owners. (Does that mean then, that they're not really standards?) And in the grand scheme of things, I would think that there are relatively very few players whose number retirements are real headscratchers. Kooz would not be one of those. Saying that Wright should go first is not the same as saying Kooz is undeserving.

Edgy MD Sep 24 2019 03:34 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Big shot dudes that have fewer fWAR than Koo's 63.0: Bob F. Feller: 62.6 Dennis F. Eckersley: 61.8 Dazzy F. Vance: 61.6 Juan F. Marichal: 61.2 Rube F. Waddell: 60.0 Don F. Drysdale: 59.3 Jim F. Palmer: 56.8 Dwight F. Gooden: 56.7 I'm (again) not saying that this stat is the be-all-and-end-all, but outside of Eck (for half his career), these were all starting pitchers, so any honest way of measuring value above replacement is illuminating. I'm neither for nor against this, but don't kid yourself. Koosman was the giraffe's tits. If he got a quick pass from the BBWAA when his name came up for the Hall, it's largely because he got credited with a lot of losses that really belong to Joe McDonald and M. Donald Grant. Fun Koo' Fact: In addition to his wins and losses, he got 17 career saves!

G-Fafif Sep 24 2019 03:37 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I'm not sure who exactly composes the Hall of Fame committee that J. Wilpon said made this decision, but I assume it still includes Gary and Howie (who were on the previous iteration) and Jay (the alumni affairs macher). I have faith in their judgment where this sort of thing is concerned (and in Howie and Gary where any Met thing is concerned). If J. Wilpon wakes up one day and says, "I'd sure like to retire 47 for my old golfing buddy Tom," then we'll know the process is askew.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 24 2019 03:45 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number! Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 24 2019 03:46 PM

Edgy MD wrote: Big shot dudes that have fewer fWAR than Koo's 63.0: Bob F. Feller: 62.6 Dennis F. Eckersley: 61.8 Dazzy F. Vance: 61.6 Juan F. Marichal: 61.2 Rube F. Waddell: 60.0 Don F. Drysdale: 59.3 Jim F. Palmer: 56.8 Dwight F. Gooden: 56.7 I'm (again) not saying that this stat is the be-all-and-end-all, but outside of Eck (for half his career), these were all-starting pitchers, so any honest way of measuring value above replacement is illuminating. I'm neither for nor against this, but don't kid yourself. Koosman was the giraffe's tits. If he got a quick pass from the BBWAA when his name came up for the Hall, it's largely because he got credited with a lot of losses that really belong to Joe McDonald and M. Donald Grant. He had some injury bad luck, too., He was on a HOF trajectory after his first two seasons but then dealt with some arm issues in 1970 that, I believe, lowered his ceiling forever. But you could fill the Albert Hall with players who fit that description.

kcmets Sep 24 2019 03:46 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I haven't read the thread yet (and can't for awhile) but is this some kind of the current holder of 36 will no longer be with us next week thing?

nymr83 Sep 24 2019 03:47 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Frayed Knot wrote: Just because there are no rules doesn't mean there shouldn't be standards. Not concrete ones maybe, but some kind of threshold which keeps from giving into ceremony whims and/or fan demands that more numbers be retired for the purpose of having more retired numbers. [speculation] As for why Kooz and not Wright: I suspect they're going chronologically during this new era of past player relationship mending meaning Kooz is perhaps just the first step on the way to Tug who will lead them into the Keith/Gary/Dwight/Darryl era (and can they really honor all them while ignoring Ronnie?!?). The ceremony du annum then leads to Franco & Fonzie, then Beltran (Ceetar will lead the charge!!) on the way to Wright & Reyes. And by then deGrom will be retired ... Translation: Wilpon figures he has YEARS, even DECADES to squeeze some dollars and attendance out of the "David Wright crowd" for a day. the median age middle-class "David Wright Fan" has likely not even reached that 'sweet spot' between college and marriage where expendable income hits its peak yet. meanwhile, the time to exploit "Koosman Fans" wallets is running out.

Centerfield Sep 24 2019 03:59 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Or, it could be that Koos is 76 years old and they want to do this not only when he's alive, but when he's of sound mind. I always assume the worst when it comes to the Wilpons too, but here, there may be a less selfish reason. Though I'm sure they're well aware of what you mentioned. I never really thought Koos fit the bill of "retire his number" good, but he was before my time. I defer to you guys. I would vote: Yes: 1. Beltran 2. Wright 3. Carter Maybe: 1. Gooden No to everyone else.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 24 2019 04:06 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Or, it could be that Koos is 76 years old and they want to do this not only when he's alive, but when he's of sound mind. I always assume the worst when it comes to the Wilpons too, but here, there may be a less selfish reason. Though I'm sure they're well aware of what you mentioned. I never really thought Koos fit the bill of "retire his number" good, but he was before my time. I defer to you guys. I would vote: Yes: 1. Beltran 2. Wright 3. Carter Maybe: 1. Gooden No to everyone else. Can you explain your case for why Carter deserves to have his number retired but Koosman doesn't? I have no idea what Carter did to deserve to have his number retired that Koosman himself didn't do 25 times over. Carter is third on your list? I'm not sure Carter cracks my first dozen.

Edgy MD Sep 24 2019 04:20 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Not for nothing, but when Koosman entered the Mets Hall of Fame in 1989, the glorious wonder that was the scheduled double-header was on its last fumes. So unlike so many ceremonies of honor before, the Koosman induction did not happen before a packed house that had just enjoyed one game, was anticipating another, and were delighted to have a treat in between. Koosman's induction came before scheduled first pitch time, with folks still streaming in from the train platform, finding their seats or grabbing an early concession. There's probably video out there, but if I remember correctly, the stands were, like, 20%, full even though he was inducted in an era of regularly packed houses. And it was kind of bummer hearing him make a speech into the mostly empty and not fully attentive stands of Shea. Spider-Man's wedding had a more engaged audience. Here's to them doing it right this time.

Centerfield Sep 24 2019 04:23 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Or, it could be that Koos is 76 years old and they want to do this not only when he's alive, but when he's of sound mind. I always assume the worst when it comes to the Wilpons too, but here, there may be a less selfish reason. Though I'm sure they're well aware of what you mentioned. I never really thought Koos fit the bill of "retire his number" good, but he was before my time. I defer to you guys. I would vote: Yes: 1. Beltran 2. Wright 3. Carter Maybe: 1. Gooden No to everyone else. Can you explain your case for why Carter deserves to have his number retired but Koosman doesn't? I have no idea what Carter did to deserve to have his number retired that Koosman himself didn't do 25 times over. Carter is third on your list? I'm not sure Carter cracks my first dozen. He meets the criteria of "Hall of Famer who played a significant part of his career with the Mets". World Champion. As I mentioned, Koos was before my time. His omission is based on ignorance rather than reason.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 24 2019 04:35 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Significant is open to Interpretation. And David Wright fits this criteria because .......?

Edgy MD Sep 24 2019 04:37 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22737 time=1569361501 user_id=68]But you could fill the Albert Hall with players who fit that description.

That brings up a good point. The Mets should retire Albert Hall's number. It was players like him that made the Braves a non factor throughout the the Davy Johnson era. (Helped also to have the Braves in the West.)

batmagadanleadoff Sep 24 2019 04:40 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22746 time=1569364557 user_id=68] Significant is open to Interpretation. And David Wright fits this criteria because .......?

Carter was a Met for five seasons, and awful for three of those.

Frayed Knot Sep 24 2019 04:54 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number! Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 24 2019 06:40 PM

=G-Fafif post_id=22736 time=1569361055 user_id=55] I'm not sure who exactly composes the Hall of Fame committee that J. Wilpon said made this decision, but I assume it still includes Gary and Howie (who were on the previous iteration) and Jay (the alumni affairs macher). I have faith in their judgment where this sort of thing is concerned (and in Howie and Gary where any Met thing is concerned).

It's not that I don't have faith in their judgement it's just that I suspect their judgement was skewed by not being asked 'Is there a name?' but rather by being told 'Come up with a name!'

iow, I have less quarrel with the name they came up with than I do with what I perceive as the motivation behind the process and where this changed attitude ultimately takes us.

Fman99 Sep 24 2019 06:26 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

This is at least partially because the cheese has slid off of Tom Terrific's cracker, sad as it is to say. Good on Kooz though, I love it. Put a big 36 in the Rotunda while you're at it.

whippoorwill Sep 24 2019 07:04 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I am very happy about this. Jerry was a great Met and was a major part of the Mets becoming a respected team. Agreed there's more guys that should be added too. Not sure why the Mets are so stingy about retiring numbers but I guess you have to save some for active players. Or maybe start using letters!

kcmets Sep 24 2019 07:13 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=whippoorwill post_id=22769 time=1569373473 user_id=79]Agreed there's more guys that should be added too. Not sure why the Mets are so stingy about retiring numbers but I guess you have to save some for active players.

Well, the Yankees still haven't had to roll out a triple-digit number quite

yet and they're the kings of number retirement.

kcmets Sep 24 2019 07:26 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Not retiring numbers all willy-nilly is really the only thing the Mets have gotten right through the many decades team-history wise.

Gwreck Sep 24 2019 07:38 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Harsh but true.

MFS62 Sep 24 2019 07:45 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22717 time=1569358009 user_id=68] Fuck youse all. Kooz fucking deserves it 10 times over. Anybody here mentions Gary Carter and his two good Mets seasons and I'll projectile barf on you. Why Kooz over Wright? Because 36 should've been retired decades ago.

This!

Exactly!

All of it! (especially the projectile ba...., well maybe not that)

Later

Lefty Specialist Sep 25 2019 06:54 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22717 time=1569358009 user_id=68] Fuck youse all. Kooz fucking deserves it 10 times over. Anybody here mentions Gary Carter and his two good Mets seasons and I'll projectile barf on you. Why Kooz over Wright? Because 36 should've been retired decades ago.

Amen. Koosman was always in Seaver's shadow so he never got the accolades he deserved. Should have been done a long time ago. Wright will get his turn.

Centerfield Sep 25 2019 07:00 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22748 time=1569364843 user_id=68] =batmagadanleadoff post_id=22746 time=1569364557 user_id=68] Significant is open to Interpretation. And David Wright fits this criteria because .......?

Carter was a Met for five seasons, and awful for three of those.


You're right. This is the problem with impressions ingrained during youth.



I do remember there was a debate about which hat he would wear on his plaque. Looking at his numbers it's hard to imagine how this was even a discussion.



No Carter.

seawolf17 Sep 25 2019 07:14 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I'm good with this; Koos was before my time, but I think it's a nice tribute that he and Seaver represent the early years of the franchise. Wright should be next, and I think that's a no-brainer. I see the arguments on Carter, but he's a no from me. I'm as big a Keith fan as anyone, but I think Straw has a more compelling argument and rarely gets mentioned. Straw > Keith > Carter > Doc (I also honestly think that Doc could get his shit together, he'd leapfrog Gary.)

Centerfield Sep 25 2019 07:52 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Ok. Here's my revised list. This time with actual research. The Met most deserving of having his number retired is Beltran. This is really a no-brainer. He is a Hall of Famer, who played more games with the Mets than any other team. His numbers were better with the Mets than at any other stop in his career. He is one of the top position players the Mets have had all time. Arguably top 3. In no way less than top 5. Two way player, great teammate. End of discussion. Next is Wright. He won't make the Hall of Fame, but was well on his way before injuries derailed him. I know, we could say this about a lot of players, but this is a subjective criteria. Lifelong Met, career leader in nearly every category. Team captain, beloved during his entire career. Worthy of the exception. I think I would draw the line here. No other numbers go on the wall. Koosman was before my time, but it looks like he was a very good pitcher who was at times great. 12 year Met career, never seriously considered for the Hall of Fame. If you retire his number, you pretty much have to retire Gooden's as well. Gooden has similar overall numbers (WAR, ERA etc), but had a period of dominance that Koos never had. If it were up to me, I'd say no to both, but if you retire one, you have to retire the other. As far as position players, Carter is a no. Likely the least qualified among those in the discussion. Batmags is right. 2 good seasons only. Keith is closer, but still a no. He played 6.5 seasons as a Met, 4.5 good ones, 1 ok one. 1 bad one. I don't think it's enough. Straw is the only borderline candidate. 8 seasons as a Met and was awesome in all 8. If he went on to finish his HOF career, his number would already be on the wall, but unfortunately he never really put it together again outside of his first season in LA. I would be inclined to take a pass on Darryl, but if you retire Koos and Gooden, Darryl deserves to be there too. Retiring 24 for Mays is silly. So in summary, I'd retire 15 and 5. Leave all other numbers in circulation. As far as predictions, I think the Mets will retire 15, 5, 36, 16, 17 and 18. And each announcement will come as a cover for bad news (selling at the deadline, Mets FA signing with another team, mathematical elimination).

seawolf17 Sep 25 2019 07:58 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I keep forgetting Beltran. And I saw Fonzie in the list in the other thread and thought "shit, yeah, maybe." Problem is, you don't retire numbers for guys about whom you say "oh, yeah, that guy. I guess so."

batmagadanleadoff Sep 25 2019 08:17 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Talk about a slippery slope with if you retire this guy you gotta do that guy. I could never get my head around the retire Carter's number camp, but it's a noisy and sizable camp. Tbe Mets'll retire 8 and I won't like it. Me, I don't think Carter deserves it -- period. -- and it's not even close, not even debatable in my head. If you retire Carter, you gotta retire Clendenon, and he doesn't deserve it either. That's my slippery slope for Carter. Plus, though I loved Carter as a player when he was still good, I really disliked Carter on a personal level. He was a classless phony fraud manipulator but he covered it up because he paid his taxes to the last penny, went to church and always finished his milk and cookies and the world is full of suckers who'll buy into that act.

Centerfield Sep 25 2019 08:20 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

It's crazy how undervalued Beltran is by Mets fans. No way he should be an "oh yeah" guy. He's beloved at every other stop.

Edgy MD Sep 25 2019 08:21 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

There are a lot of Mets fans who irrationally hate Beltran. And more than a few with a fake patriotic stick up their asses about Walter Reed National Military Medical Center. Then there are the entitled cherry-picking turdz who are going to make the playoff-ending strikeout the summary of his career, when he is possibly (or even probably) the BEST POST-SEASON PLAYER EVER. Part of me says the Mets need to roll out tributes to Beltran carefully and deliberately — get him into the booth for a visit or two, get photo ops for him with children in Mets hats. This sort of rehabilitation of his image wouldn't be because anything about him seriously needs rehabilitating, but to save the embarrassment of a tribute being ruined by a loud minority. The other part wonders if it's better to just let entitled loud-mouthed idiots humiliate themselves in public.

Centerfield Sep 25 2019 08:26 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Edgy MD wrote: There are a lot of Mets fans who irrationally hate Beltran. And more than a few with a fake patriotic stick up their asses about Walter Reed National Military Medical Center. Then there are the entitled cherry-picking turdz who are going to make the playoff-ending strikeout the summary of his career, when he is possibly (or even probably) the BEST POST-SEASON PLAYER EVER. Part of me says the Mets need to roll out tributes to Beltran carefully and deliberately — get him into the booth for a visit or two, get photo ops for him with children in Mets hats. This sort of rehabilitation of his image wouldn't be because anything about him seriously needs rehabilitating, but to save the embarrassment of a tribute being ruined by a loud minority. The other part wonders if it's better to just let entitled loud-mouthed idiots humiliate themselves in public. It's also possible that Beltran wants nothing to do with the Mets. At least as far as ownership is concerned. They pushed him to play hurt, pushed leaks and whispers how he was "soft". Imagine that. The guy that played through a broken face being soft. Finally went ahead against the Mets orders and got the surgery that saved his career. Beltran is probably a better person than me, because if I were Carlos I would pretend I had no idea who was calling when Jeff started throwing out dates for the ceremony.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 25 2019 08:28 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22846 time=1569421067 user_id=68] Talk about a slippery slope with if you retire this guy you gotta do that guy. I could never get my head around the retire Carter's number camp, but it's a noisy and sizable camp. Tbe Mets'll retire 8 and I won't like it. Me, I don't think Carter deserves it -- period. -- and it's not even close, not even debatable in my head. If you retire Carter, you gotta retire Clendenon, and he doesn't deserve it either. That's my slippery slope for Carter. Plus, though I loved Carter as a player when he was still good, I really disliked Carter on a personal level. He was a classless phony fraud manipulator but he covered it up because he paid his taxes to the last penny, went to church and always finished his milk and cookies and the world is full of suckers who'll buy into that act.

And if you retire Carter and Clendenon, then you gotta retire Cespedes. I say we pave the way for that right now by giving Yoenis #53 when he returns.

seawolf17 Sep 25 2019 08:42 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

It's crazy how undervalued Beltran is by Mets fans. No way he should be an "oh yeah" guy. He's beloved at every other stop. You're right; it's so bizarre that I keep forgetting him. But realistically, he's behind Straw on pretty much every single all-time team record list, plus Straw has a ring.

stevejrogers Sep 25 2019 08:42 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22846 time=1569421067 user_id=68] Talk about a slippery slope with if you retire this guy you gotta do that guy. I could never get my head around the retire Carter's number camp, but it's a noisy and sizable camp. Tbe Mets'll retire 8 and I won't like it. Me, I don't think Carter deserves it -- period. -- and it's not even close, not even debatable in my head. If you retire Carter, you gotta retire Clendenon, and he doesn't deserve it either. That's my slippery slope for Carter. Plus, though I loved Carter as a player when he was still good, I really disliked Carter on a personal level. He was a classless phony fraud manipulator but he covered it up because he paid his taxes to the last penny, went to church and always finished his milk and cookies and the world is full of suckers who'll buy into that act.

You're just waiting for that sleazy tell all book/podcast/blog post just so you can say “I KNEW IT ALL ALONG!”



Despite several books, etc being produced about the 80's Mets, and even early 80's Expos (including many after his passing) with nary an evidence to suggest Carter was guilty of anything more than being a spotlight whore and having self-awareness issues

stevejrogers Sep 25 2019 08:46 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I mean, you'd think he was actually on Derek Jeter's level of a sociopath the way you foam at the mouth about Carter. Did he stiff you? Tell you to pound sand because you didn't want to make an on the spot donation to his charity for an autograph?

Vic Sage Sep 25 2019 08:50 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number! Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 25 2019 09:01 AM

I've always been somewhat elitist about the numbers on the wall. It also gives us a favorable point of comparison with the yankees, IMO, who would retire a ball boy's number and call it yankee tradition. But Kooz? The first Mets game i attended was a game that Kooz pitched (and won). As a fellow lefty, i felt immediate kinship. As i grew older, I knew Seaver was the superior pitcher, but it was Kooz who dominated in the 69 series, not Tom (in 73, too). And it was Kooz, as Tom's wingman, who i always preferred, with his modest, self-effacing manor and impish good humor standing in stark contrast to the brash, arrogant, jock-fratboy persona of Tom terrific. I was more upset when they traded Jerry away than the Seaver trade, though i understood the relative difference in the impact on the team's fortunes. But i was happy for Jerry when he won 20 for the Twins that first season after the trade. And i was happy to see him go out strong, giving the Phillies a solid season when he was in his 40s. So hell, yes, put that 36 on the freakin' wall. He was more of a Met than a roided up merc like Piazza, or a 2-season wonder like Carter. Welcome home, Jerry. It' been a long time. Put your feet up. stay awhile.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 25 2019 08:53 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=stevejrogers post_id=22853 time=1569422568 user_id=57] =batmagadanleadoff post_id=22846 time=1569421067 user_id=68] Talk about a slippery slope with if you retire this guy you gotta do that guy. I could never get my head around the retire Carter's number camp, but it's a noisy and sizable camp. Tbe Mets'll retire 8 and I won't like it. Me, I don't think Carter deserves it -- period. -- and it's not even close, not even debatable in my head. If you retire Carter, you gotta retire Clendenon, and he doesn't deserve it either. That's my slippery slope for Carter. Plus, though I loved Carter as a player when he was still good, I really disliked Carter on a personal level. He was a classless phony fraud manipulator but he covered it up because he paid his taxes to the last penny, went to church and always finished his milk and cookies and the world is full of suckers who'll buy into that act.

You're just waiting for that sleazy tell all book/podcast/blog post just so you can say “I KNEW IT ALL ALONG!”



Despite several books, etc being produced about the 80's Mets, and even early 80's Expos (including many after his passing) with nary an evidence to suggest Carter was guilty of anything more than being a spotlight whore and having self-awareness issues


Isn't that enough? He openly campaigned for Willie Randolph's manager position as if he was entitled to it. And while Willie was still the manager. How the hell do you think Willie must've felt? Instead of immersing himself in the Mets glorious 1986 WS victory, Carter spends the whole off-season whining --publicly-- that he was robbed of the MVP award. Carter? The 5th or 6th best guy just on his own team? AYFKM?? And how do you think Mike Schmidt felt? He whines and pouts and cries and does whatever he thinks its gonna take to get him that co-captainship that was never initially intended for Carter. How do you think Keith might've felt? What a fucking manipulator. And he knew exactly what he was doing. And these are just the big, sweeping brushstrokes.

Vic Sage Sep 25 2019 08:57 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Other names? Wright and Beltran, definitely. They are the best players at their respective positions that the organization has ever had. But, as much as i liked Keith, he was a Cardinal more than he was a Met. Carter, even more so (as an Expo). Straw and Doc? They both embarrassed themselves and the organization. They didn't honor their numbers, so neither should the team. Nobody else yet. Maybe DeGrom one day, if he keeps pitching like this for the rest of his current contract.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 25 2019 09:00 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Vic Sage wrote: I've always been somewhat elitist about the numbers on the wall. It also gives us a favorable point of comparison with the yankees, IMO, who would retire a ball boy's number and call it yankee tradition. But Kooz? The first Mets game i attended was a game that Kooz pitched (and won). As a fellow lefty, i felt immediate kinship. As i grew older, I knew Seaver was the superior pitcher, but it was Kooz who dominated in the 69 series, not Tom (in 73, too). And it was Kooz, as Tom's wingman, who i always preferred, with his modest, self-effacing manor and impish good humor standing in stark contrast to the brash, arrogant, jock-fratboy persona of Tom terrific. I was more upset when they traded Jerry away than the Seaver trade, though i understood the relative difference in the impact on the team's fortunes. But i was happy for Jerry when he won 20 for the Twins that first season after the trade. And i was happy to see him go out strong, giving the Phillies a solid season when he was in his 40s. So hell, yes, put that 36 on the freakin' wall. He was more of a Met than a merc like Piazza, or a 2-season wonder like Carter. Welcome home, Jerry. It' been a long time. Put your feet up. stay awhile. Yeah. I pretty much agree here. I'm fine with the Mets mailntaing extremely high, or as you say, elitist standards for retiring numbers. If the Mets wanted to limit retired numbers for guys like Seaver and Piazza, I had no problem. But if they're gonna now relax those standards, Koosman jumps to the top or close to the top of that new list. Carter, still, doesn't make my list unless I hafta submit a very long list.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 25 2019 09:08 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number! Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Sep 25 2019 09:35 AM

=stevejrogers post_id=22854 time=1569422760 user_id=57] I mean, you'd think he was actually on Derek Jeter's level of a sociopath the way you foam at the mouth about Carter. Did he stiff you? Tell you to pound sand because you didn't want to make an on the spot donation to his charity for an autograph?

Oh, that's the Carter defense?! That Derek Jeter was worse? What's next? The Mets should retire Carter's number because the Yankees retired Jeter's number? What exactly is the Gary Carter argument anyway, if someone would care to articulate it? That the Mets should retire his number because he was already, or practically a HOFer when he first arrived here? And the Mets should retire Mets numbers based on what the players who wore those numbers did with other teams?

Edgy MD Sep 25 2019 09:10 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Vic Sage wrote: Nobody else yet. Maybe DeGrom one day, if he keeps pitching like this for the rest of his current contract. deGrom could pitch like Mike Pelfrey the rest of his contract. He'd still be a Mets legend by the end of it.

Vic Sage Sep 25 2019 09:33 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Edgy MD wrote: Vic Sage wrote: Nobody else yet. Maybe DeGrom one day, if he keeps pitching like this for the rest of his current contract. deGrom could pitch like Mike Pelfrey the rest of his contract. He'd still be a Mets legend by the end of it. fair enough. As regards the "slippery slope" argument, i don't buy it. A cursory look at the numbers show obvious groupings and tiers, considering Metly attributes (production, longevity, character) *The top position player is Wright, and then a drop down to Straw and Beltran, who are still above the line. * Then you get a group of Piazza, Fonzie, Reyes and Keith, who i would say are below the line, except Piazza is a HOFer with enough Metly attributes to consider above the line. * with regard to pitching, there is Seaver and everybody else. But the next tier is Gooden and Kooz, with deGrom closing fast. If you are adding to Seaver and Piazza, and excluding the delinquents (which i would), its Kooz, Beltran, Wright and (soon) deGrom. So i don't see the slope as particularly slippery., even including Kooz.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 25 2019 09:38 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

You can't know if it's a slippery slope just yet. You'll only know years from now, based on what other numbers are eventually retired and what the rationale would be for those other numbers.

Vic Sage Sep 25 2019 10:03 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22865 time=1569425935 user_id=68] You can't know if it's a slippery slope just yet. You'll only know years from now, based on what other numbers are eventually retired and what the rationale would be for those other numbers.

well there's nothing objectively slippery about Kooz's inclusion, because his numbers and longevity, and post-season accomplishments, make him worthy under any scenario. If they subsequently lower the bar, the rationale for that cannot be pegged to Kooz any more than to Piazza. The slope gets slippery when you start including players whose overall accomplishments are not comparable.

Edgy MD Sep 25 2019 10:54 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Somebody get duan on the horn. He always brings a useful perspective to these matters. (And where has marathon been?)

stevejrogers Sep 25 2019 11:11 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=22860 time=1569424118 user_id=68] =stevejrogers post_id=22854 time=1569422760 user_id=57] I mean, you'd think he was actually on Derek Jeter's level of a sociopath the way you foam at the mouth about Carter. Did he stiff you? Tell you to pound sand because you didn't want to make an on the spot donation to his charity for an autograph?

Oh, that's the Carter defense?! That Derek Jeter was worse? What's next? The Mets should retire Carter's number because the Yankees retired Jeter's number? What exactly is the Gary Carter argument anyway, if someone would care to articulate it? That the Mets should retire his number because he was already, or practically a HOFer when he first arrived here? And the Mets should retire Mets numbers based on what the players who wore those numbers did with other teams?


I wasn't arguing number retirement. I was trying to get to the bottom of the vitriol you have for Carter.



Would you rather have someone on the team you root for with Carter's personality and off-field persona or Jeter's?

kcmets Sep 25 2019 11:20 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

We've been through #8 aka Camera Carter and later aka Pop-up Carter for like 20 years now and the answer is still clearly a no-way for number retirement.

kcmets Sep 25 2019 11:22 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Remember that face Pop-up Carter made when he popped up? 'Almost got it, I'll get one next time. Or tomorrow, or next week ...'

Edgy MD Sep 25 2019 12:00 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Retire the pop-up face!!

kcmets Sep 25 2019 12:07 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I just think it's funny how many people forget how frustrating he was at times. Hell, we share the same name and people always asked why I didn't have a jersey. Yeah, uh no. My Mom loved him, particularly his curly locks. And for Vic: she loved McReynolds too, called him her second favorite Kevin.

G-Fafif Sep 25 2019 12:48 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

41 is the only number to come attached to the street where the Mets live. I don't think any other number's gonna join Seaver Way in achieving that honor.

stevejrogers Sep 25 2019 01:55 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=kcmets post_id=22892 time=1569434827 user_id=53] I just think it's funny how many people forget how frustrating he was at times. Hell, we share the same name and people always asked why I didn't have a jersey. Yeah, uh no. My Mom loved him, particularly his curly locks. And for Vic: she loved McReynolds too, called him her second favorite Kevin.

True! But you don't act as if Carter was one of humanity's evilest villains any time he comes up in a conversation! ;)

Frayed Knot Sep 25 2019 01:59 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=kcmets post_id=22892 time=1569434827 user_id=53] [mom] loved McReynolds too, called him her second favorite Kevin.

He just couldn't beat out Spacey, huh?

kcmets Sep 25 2019 02:01 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Eww, just eww ...

batmagadanleadoff Sep 25 2019 02:09 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=stevejrogers post_id=22903 time=1569441320 user_id=57] =kcmets post_id=22892 time=1569434827 user_id=53] I just think it's funny how many people forget how frustrating he was at times. Hell, we share the same name and people always asked why I didn't have a jersey. Yeah, uh no. My Mom loved him, particularly his curly locks. And for Vic: she loved McReynolds too, called him her second favorite Kevin.

True! But you don't act as if Carter was one of humanity's evilest villains any time he comes up in a conversation! ;)


I didn't say that. I'm sure he did many wonderful thoughtful things.Its also a lot easier to be philantrophic and generous when you have more money than most people. David Koch. Carter also has the most exaggerated most overblown legacy of any Met I can think of, and it's not even close.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 25 2019 02:31 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Koosman is the first of the retirees whose number was reissued after he stopped using it. Quite an illustrious list: Wayne Twitchell Mark Bomback Danny Boitano Ed Lynch Manny Hernandez Dave Liddell Kevin Baez Tony Castillo Kevin Baez Tito Navarro Mike Birkbeck Don Florence Greg McMichael Jeff Tam Grant Roberts Manny Aybar Henry Owens Kelly Stinnett Chip Ambres Willie Collazo Darren O'Day Ken Takahashi Manny Acosta Dale Thayer Collin McHugh Juan Centeno Sean Gilmartin Mickey Callaway

stevejrogers Sep 25 2019 02:49 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Also other than Koosman, the number of Mets whom have worn the number is 36. Meaning Mickey Callaway should have exclaimed: “I'M 37!” Mickey: “THE METS ISSUED THE NUMBER I WEAR 37 TIMES!” Random guy he said it to: “In a row?”

G-Fafif Sep 25 2019 03:00 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Other than Lynch and maybe McMichael, basically nobody had anything resembling sustained competence post-Koosman, and I'd include Callaway in that cohort.

Vic Sage Sep 25 2019 03:09 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=kcmets post_id=22892 time=1569434827 user_id=53] And for Vic: she loved McReynolds too, called him her second favorite Kevin.

That's a terrible thing to say about your mother!

Edgy MD Sep 25 2019 05:39 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Mothers and Gary Carter. Gary Carter and mothers. It was a phucking phenomenon is what it was.

Frayed Knot Sep 25 2019 05:46 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Even Carter's curly locks were phony.

Edgy MD Sep 25 2019 11:02 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

It's odd. He came out of a decade that was full of guys working on their public image really hard (sometimes tastelessly) with an eye toward establishing a legend to build on (and, more cynically, cash in on) throughout. Garvey, Jackson, Rose, Jim Palmer too. To a lesser extent, Seaver and maybe Joe Morgan. In many ways, playing into the nineties, he was the last of that era. By Ken Griffey's dawn, with multiple card companies, ESPN going professional, video games, et al., you could just largely play your game and let your publicist or agent make a legend out of you. Nowadays, in order to create a persona that's bigger than your performance, you have to kill it on Twitter or something. Getting the moms, though, remains a tough row to hoe.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 26 2019 09:08 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Or, it could be that Koos is 76 years old and they want to do this not only when he's alive, but when he's of sound mind. I always assume the worst when it comes to the Wilpons too, but here, there may be a less selfish reason. Though I'm sure they're well aware of what you mentioned. I never really thought Koos fit the bill of "retire his number" good, but he was before my time. I defer to you guys. I would vote: Yes: 1. Beltran 2. Wright 3. Carter Maybe: 1. Gooden No to everyone else. Can you explain your case for why Carter deserves to have his number retired but Koosman doesn't? I have no idea what Carter did to deserve to have his number retired that Koosman himself didn't do 25 times over. Carter is third on your list? I'm not sure Carter cracks my first dozen. [Carter] meets the criteria of "Hall of Famer who played a significant part of his career with the Mets". World Champion.... I know that you changed your mind on Carter. And good on you. Smart and open-minded is where it's at. But there's a Met that fits your criteria (if you still stand by it -- "Hall of Famer who played a significant part of his career with the Mets". World Champion.... to a perfect tee. And his name hasn't come up a single time in this whole discussion. Which goes to show how silly rules are, especially here, where the owners can do whatever they want. You paint yourself into a corner with rules and then have to backpedal for the guy who fits the bill even though you think his number shouldn't be retired or the guy like David Wright, who deserves to have his number retired more than any other Met whose number hasn't been retired, but doesn't meet the criteria. Oh, and that Met I was talking about that no one's mentioned is . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Nolan Ryan.

Johnny Lunchbucket Sep 26 2019 09:24 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Plus Jared Kelenic

batmagadanleadoff Sep 26 2019 09:57 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=stevejrogers post_id=22883 time=1569431516 user_id=57] =batmagadanleadoff post_id=22860 time=1569424118 user_id=68] =stevejrogers post_id=22854 time=1569422760 user_id=57] I mean, you'd think he was actually on Derek Jeter's level of a sociopath the way you foam at the mouth about Carter. Did he stiff you? Tell you to pound sand because you didn't want to make an on the spot donation to his charity for an autograph?

Oh, that's the Carter defense?! That Derek Jeter was worse? What's next? The Mets should retire Carter's number because the Yankees retired Jeter's number? What exactly is the Gary Carter argument anyway, if someone would care to articulate it? That the Mets should retire his number because he was already, or practically a HOFer when he first arrived here? And the Mets should retire Mets numbers based on what the players who wore those numbers did with other teams?


I wasn't arguing number retirement. I was trying to get to the bottom of the vitriol you have for Carter.



Would you rather have someone on the team you root for with Carter's personality and off-field persona or Jeter's?


I don't know. For all I say, this is really a side issue for me -- this personality thing. I mostly care about what they do on the field. I'm super fine with Albert Belle in his prime. I was a huge fan of Carter before anyone even dreamed that he'd one day be a Met, and I was as happy as any other Met fan was when it was announced that the Mets had traded for him. He was the best catcher of his time and I always knew that. But this was Expos stuff. Carter already had one foot -- at least one foot -- maybe a foot and a torso and his big head and a coup'la toes -- in Cooperstown before he took a single at bat for the Mets. What I feel very strongly about, which has nothing to do with Carter's personality, is the idea that he deserves to have his Mets number retired. I don't see any plausible argument for this. To my way of thinking, it's about as ridiculous as it gets as far as retiring numbers go.

seawolf17 Sep 26 2019 10:09 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Nolan Ryan threw only 500 innings as a Met, and we were the worst (and smallest) of his four MLB stops. And he pitched in one game in the '69 Series. Retiring his number would be insane. (Carter caught every inning in the 1986 postseason, and all but five innings in 1988.) The argument for Carter isn't terrible. Not exhaustive enough, and not strong enough, but not as terrible as some here make it.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 26 2019 10:19 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number! Edited 5 time(s), most recently on Sep 26 2019 11:01 AM

Nolan Ryan threw only 500 innings as a Met, and we were the worst (and smallest) of his four MLB stops. And he pitched in one game in the '69 Series. Retiring his number would be insane. (Carter caught every inning in the 1986 postseason, and all but five innings in 1988.) The argument for Carter isn't terrible. Not exhaustive enough, and not strong enough, but not as terrible as some here make it. I wasn't advocating for Nolan's number retirement. Just wanted to show how silly "rules" are because lotsa your proposed rules would lead to #30 being retired but not #5. And Carter's case is terrible. I mean, really, what the fuck did this fucking guy do who totally sucked for three out of his five seasons here to deserve to have his number retired? I don't wanna hear about these random good things that Carter did because Steve Henderson also did a whole lot of good things for the Mets. But all of a sudden, people make a list of the good things Gary Carter did and turn that into a case for his number retirement. Because the good things Gary Carte did are so much more different than the good things any other Met did. So WTF did he do that the Mets should retire his number? Caught those postseason innings? Grote did that for two postseasons, too. And one could make a reasonable case that Grote was a greater Met than Carter, unless you take Carter's Expos years and pretend that they were Mets years instead, which is what's really going on here even no though no one wants to admit to it. And even if it turns out that Carter was a greater Met than Grote, that's not the standard -- being better than Grote -- that should get your number retired.

Edgy MD Sep 26 2019 10:48 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

My friend Martin was a Yankee fan but just loved the whole comic opera of baseball. He loved Carter because he said that every time he turned on the Mets on SportsChannel, McCarver or Kiner was announcing that "Carter's finally showing signs of coming out of his slump." From his perspective, Carter's slump was a story/non-story for about a year and a half. They always treated like a phase of a few weeks, but it was actually an extended period of his career. The months-long wait for his 300th homer seemed to make all the sense in the world. For other guys, it's, "It's a nice milestone, but I was just trying to make good contact there and get something started to help the team." With Gary, you got the sense he was constantly pressing for it, because it was an important asset to add to his brand. I still like the guy, as ridiculous as he was. Hernandez was a great field captain — really everything you could ask for — but I don't think he was suited to the off-the-field stuff like taking his teammate aside and saying, "Look, you're being a real jackass."

MFS62 Sep 26 2019 02:24 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Vic Sage wrote: I've always been somewhat elitist about the numbers on the wall. It also gives us a favorable point of comparison with the yankees, IMO, who would retire a ball boy's number and call it yankee tradition. But Kooz? The first Mets game i attended was a game that Kooz pitched (and won). As a fellow lefty, i felt immediate kinship. As i grew older, I knew Seaver was the superior pitcher, but it was Kooz who dominated in the 69 series, not Tom (in 73, too). And it was Kooz, as Tom's wingman, who i always preferred, with his modest, self-effacing manor and impish good humor standing in stark contrast to the brash, arrogant, jock-fratboy persona of Tom terrific. I was more upset when they traded Jerry away than the Seaver trade, though i understood the relative difference in the impact on the team's fortunes. But i was happy for Jerry when he won 20 for the Twins that first season after the trade. And i was happy to see him go out strong, giving the Phillies a solid season when he was in his 40s. So hell, yes, put that 36 on the freakin' wall. He was more of a Met than a roided up merc like Piazza, or a 2-season wonder like Carter. Welcome home, Jerry. It' been a long time. Put your feet up. stay awhile. This! Every single word of it. Later

batmagadanleadoff Sep 26 2019 03:23 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Jeez,.I don't wanna beat this horse to death but if Carter deserves to have his number retired, than so does Jon Matlack. And Jake DeGrom. The Mets would need to announce right now that as soon as Jake retires, his number's going up on that wall. His Mets career is already at least two or three times better than Carter's. Every time I hear this nonsense about retiring Carter's number, I go off like this. It's like my personal Susquehanna Hat Company.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 26 2019 03:33 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I love the reference to the Susquehanna Hat Company. And I agree with you about Gary Carter, too. Retiring his number makes absolutely no sense. He deserves it as an Expo (if there were still Expos) but not as a Met.

kcmets Sep 26 2019 08:01 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=23041 time=1569533033 user_id=68]It's like my personal Susquehanna Hat Company.

Lo f'n l,

Centerfield Sep 27 2019 07:23 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=kcmets post_id=23073 time=1569549683 user_id=53] =batmagadanleadoff post_id=23041 time=1569533033 user_id=68]It's like my personal Susquehanna Hat Company.

Lo f'n l,


I have a few as I'm sure you all know.



*How grossly distorted Armando's legacy as been. Often cited to as the epitome of bad reliever when he is in fact the best. Can you imagine if he lost two games down the stretch like Lugo just did? “He let us down at the worst possible time!”



*The idiots that judge Beltran by one AB. “I just can't get over that image of him just standing there.” Fuck all of them.



*People who love Rudy Giuliani. “He cleaned up the city.” Makes me sick to my stomach. If there is any silver lining to this horrific presidency it's that Rudy Giuliani has been exposed for the fraud he is. I would Lolol all day if he ended up being the one to bring down Trump. I don't know if I would ever stop laughing.

41Forever Sep 27 2019 07:30 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I don't think retiring a number is just about the number of great seasons or compiling stats. Casey Stengel is on the wall, and his .302 winning percentage is the worst among Mets managers -- by far. But in Casey's case there was obviously value to the franchise that is not reflected by stats alone. That's the argument for Gary Carter. I'd like it if Carter's number was retired, but it's not a huge issue for me. I think the window to do so has closed. He's in the Mets Hall and the team wore a memorial patch when he passed, and those are very nice honors. I'm not sure who made the decision to not issue the number to other players. That seems like a half step. Make the commitment, or issue it.

Benjamin Grimm Sep 27 2019 07:41 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I say issue it. If it was up to me, I'd issue number 8 to every player next season, just to finally bury this issue.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 27 2019 07:54 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Casey Stengel was a manager and a good will ambassador. And I'm not even sure in what order. A player's got to play his way to a retired number.. Apples and oranges. No one here can even articulate WHY Carter should have his number retired other than that this is nothing more than fanboy worship gone haywire. He smiles a lot. Because Casey's number is retired. Because he caught the postseason innings. (°Hello Travis d'Arnaud!) Because be was a great Expo. Can anyone here tell me where Bagel Street is?

batmagadanleadoff Sep 27 2019 12:09 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=41Forever post_id=23097 time=1569591055 user_id=69] But in Casey's case there was obviously value to the franchise that is not reflected by stats alone. That's the argument for Gary Carter.

And what value would that be? That's so valuable that as a result of this so valuable contribution, no other Met from here on in until the end of time plus another year should ever be allowed to wear Gary Carter's #8? Could you at least explain it? Not that you'll answer my question. After all, I dislike Betsy DeVos and so you went and started a nasty fight here even though practically everyone who posts on the politics forum despises Betsy DeVos. And it's all bullshit anyways. First you decide what your position's gonna be and then you come up with supporting reasons. So when the HOF rule results in Nolan Ryan's # retirement and not David Wright's, then its suddenly onto smiles and intangibles. It's all bullshit anyways because what you do so often when you debate here is that you'll have already decided on your position and only then do you come up with supporting reasons. So here we are with vague and nebulous etheral intangibles that can be mishmoshed any which way to support anything.

G-Fafif Mar 05 2020 11:05 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Mets have announced Saturday, June 13, as Kooz Day. 36 gets officially retired prior to the 4:10 game vs. WSH.

Edgy MD Mar 05 2020 12:12 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

That will leave Mickey Callaway as the last 36 in team history.

G-Fafif Aug 28 2021 10:22 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

A thorough tour of Kooz's career, with Kevin Czerwinski guiding No. 36 from its commencement to its conclusion. Koosman won went 21-10 with a 2.69 ERA in 1976 but this time Jones [22-14, 2.74 ERA] won the Cy Young Award. “'76 was my best year as far as concentration,” Koosman said. “My dad died during Spring Training and it was a big shock to me. He was my number one fan. We were very close and when he died my concentration, it was like his spirit was on my right shoulder every pitch I made. I was never able to get that deep concentration like that again. The last 10 years I pitched I could tell you every pitch I threw in order, that was the kind of concentration I had but '76 was way above that. “I thought I deserved the Cy Young but it's out of my control. Seaver had won the year before and the same thing happened with Rookie of the Year. I know there were some writers that didn't think one organization should win two in a row. I've heard that comment.” https://ballnine.com/2021/08/27/kooz/

stevejrogers Aug 28 2021 01:13 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Jerry Koosman as a Met on cardboard https://www.tcdb.com/List.cfm/lid/10202/New-York-Mets-Hall-of-Fame-Honorees-Jerry-Koosman

Marshmallowmilkshake Aug 28 2021 01:49 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Jerry Koosman as a Met on cardboard https://www.tcdb.com/List.cfm/lid/10202/New-York-Mets-Hall-of-Fame-Honorees-Jerry-Koosman Good find! I like how the 1970, 1973 and 1974 have virtually the same pose, but definitely taken at different times and places.

stevejrogers Aug 28 2021 01:59 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Jerry Koosman as a Met on cardboard https://www.tcdb.com/List.cfm/lid/10202/New-York-Mets-Hall-of-Fame-Honorees-Jerry-Koosman Good find! Well, that was curated by myself on that site ;) I like how the 1970, 1973 and 1974 have virtually the same pose, but definitely taken at different times and places. Just noticed the same with the ‘78 and ‘79 card. Rare shot of Koosman on a card wearing the orange and blue shirt and sleeve collars. Way too many Koosman as a Phillie cards exist for my tastes BTW. Thankfully no post career card of him as a Twin, White Sox or Phillie exist, yet anyway…at least according to that site ;)

MFS62 Aug 28 2021 02:50 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I recall that every year for his entire career, Who's Who In Baseball used the same picture of Jerry. In the neck-up shot, he has a silly grin and he is looking up to his left. Even though he became one of the best pitchers in the game, they never changed that picture. Later

batmagadanleadoff Aug 28 2021 03:21 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Jerry Koosman as a Met on cardboard https://www.tcdb.com/List.cfm/lid/10202/New-York-Mets-Hall-of-Fame-Honorees-Jerry-Koosman Good find! Well, that was curated by myself on that site ;) I like how the 1970, 1973 and 1974 have virtually the same pose, but definitely taken at different times and places. Just noticed the same with the ‘78 and ‘79 card. Rare shot of Koosman on a card wearing the orange and blue shirt and sleeve collars. Way too many Koosman as a Phillie cards exist for my tastes BTW. Thankfully no post career card of him as a Twin, White Sox or Phillie exist, yet anyway…at least according to that site ;) What? No Typewriters? [FIMG=444]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51408985008_47251dfb1e_k.jpg[/FIMG] [FIMG=444]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51409691450_eb8d605235_k.jpg[/FIMG] [FIMG=444]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51408984998_1567b4eff7_b.jpg[/FIMG]

seawolf17 Aug 28 2021 04:23 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

This is a *great* Kooz/Seaver story that I'd never heard before. https://www.facebook.com/SNY/posts/5053313348029026

batmagadanleadoff Aug 28 2021 05:46 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

A thorough tour of Kooz's career, with Kevin Czerwinski guiding No. 36 from its commencement to its conclusion. Koosman won went 21-10 with a 2.69 ERA in 1976 but this time Jones [22-14, 2.74 ERA] won the Cy Young Award. “'76 was my best year as far as concentration,” Koosman said. “My dad died during Spring Training and it was a big shock to me. He was my number one fan. We were very close and when he died my concentration, it was like his spirit was on my right shoulder every pitch I made. I was never able to get that deep concentration like that again. The last 10 years I pitched I could tell you every pitch I threw in order, that was the kind of concentration I had but '76 was way above that. “I thought I deserved the Cy Young but it's out of my control. Seaver had won the year before and the same thing happened with Rookie of the Year. I know there were some writers that didn't think one organization should win two in a row. I've heard that comment.” https://ballnine.com/2021/08/27/kooz/ This quote's for FK: Koosman doesn't watch much baseball these days, preferring golf and football. He said he doesn't have the patience to watch a baseball game any longer. “I was a fast pitcher,” he said. “My games averaged 2:10, 2:15. Today you're in the fourth or fifth inning at that point and it just wears you out. Everyone has gloves and guards they adjust and the pitchers take too long. It's just slow all the way around in most games.”

stevejrogers Aug 28 2021 06:03 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

What? No Typewriters? Oddly enough, there is a user list on that site of cards showing embraces. Could have sworn a card existed of the Jerrys and Ed Charles on the mound following the final out of the ‘69 series. Must have been a creation of yours or Z's that I was thinking of. Ended up sending the creator of that list a 1994 Spectrum Collectables card featuring Koosman with him jumping into Grote's arm in the background of Koosman's profile. https://www.tcdb.com/Images/Cards/Baseball/86181/86181-6228706RepFr.jpg>

batmagadanleadoff Aug 28 2021 06:12 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you saying that that web site also hosts DIY or custom cards from individuals, in addition to the licensed cards one would expect to find?

stevejrogers Aug 28 2021 06:30 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=75817 time=1630195930 user_id=68] I'm not sure I'm following you. Are you saying that that web site also hosts DIY or custom cards from individuals, in addition to the licensed cards one would expect to find?

No, they don't. Which is why I never found what I thought existed (Grote, Koosman, Charles celebrating on the field) on that site, because they don't list custom cards. Virtual or physical.

G-Fafif Aug 29 2021 03:11 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Jerry and I have a little chat. [tweet]https://twitter.com/snytv/status/1431744819169275910[/tweet]

Frayed Knot Aug 29 2021 08:27 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=75810 time=1630194408 user_id=68] This quote's for FK: Koosman doesn't watch much baseball these days, preferring golf and football. He said he doesn't have the patience to watch a baseball game any longer. “I was a fast pitcher,” he said. “My games averaged 2:10, 2:15. Today you're in the fourth or fifth inning at that point and it just wears you out. Everyone has gloves and guards they adjust and the pitchers take too long. It's just slow all the way around in most games.”

Hey, it's not like I'm a lone voice in the wilderness on this issue (merely one of the more obnoxious ones).

And you'd think they'd listen to a former star in their sport even if they want to ignore cranks like me, but they obviously don't.



In fairness to Koos, part of the reason games in his era were quicker had to do with shorter between-innings commercial time.

But my counter to that is that commercial time hasn't increased in 20 years now and yet games continue to get longer.

The Yanx and A's are currently a handful of pitches into the top of the 9th inning of a 3-1 game which is already over 3 hours long (A's win as I'm typing ... the A's WIN!!)

8-1/2 innings, 4 runs/14 hits combined, 3:13. Back in the day a game like that would run 2:20, and even now it should run no more than 2:40

Ceetar Aug 29 2021 08:33 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

That's an old man yells at cloud reason anyway. he wouldn't be watching the games if they were 2:40 either. I mean, he cited golf and football for gods sakes.

kcmets Aug 29 2021 08:55 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

How Jerry Koosman can invoke a thought about old men shouting at clouds makes no sense to me. I doubt he raises his voice often, and certainly not towards the sky.

nymr83 Aug 29 2021 08:56 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

=Ceetar post_id=75907 time=1630290837 user_id=102] That's an old man yells at cloud reason anyway. he wouldn't be watching the games if they were 2:40 either. I mean, he cited golf and football for gods sakes.

If football is your thing then its your thing. The once a week commitment is pretty attractive. Golf??? I know plenty of people who enjoy golfing. But watching it when you aren't participating is less interesting than watching paint dry. Really. Bob Villa painting is better than golf.

Ceetar Aug 29 2021 10:17 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

my only point was the breaks and length of a football are extreme, even compared to baseball. Claiming you watch football but baseball games are too long is just nonsense. How long does golf take to watch? I'm tired of the narrative always being "waah, baseball was better in my day" It wasn't. Give me a 1972 game and a 2019 game and I'm taking 2019 every time. It's not the length of game that's keeping Koosman from watching, even if he wants to tell himself, and us, that.

nymr83 Aug 29 2021 11:41 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

my only point was the breaks and length of a football are extreme, even compared to baseball. Claiming you watch football but baseball games are too long is just nonsense. How long does golf take to watch? I'm tired of the narrative always being "waah, baseball was better in my day" It wasn't. Give me a 1972 game and a 2019 game and I'm taking 2019 every time. It's not the length of game that's keeping Koosman from watching, even if he wants to tell himself, and us, that. Oh I don't believe Koosman at all. But the NFL's breaks are fine - because there is a fantasy team to check, and survivor pool, and your draftkings team, and RedZone and... it hardly feels like a break when the Jets go to commercial (a break from the misery of the Jets perhaps). Some of these distractions exist in baseball too, but not to the same degree, because of the length of the season each NFL game day just feels more intense.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 30 2021 12:22 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Can't think of any other rookie card where both players on the card have had their uniform numbers retired. Can youse? [FIMG=444]https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1yVUpt8QML._AC_SL1500_.jpg[/FIMG]

Edgy MD Aug 30 2021 07:06 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I can't. But you get 3,007 hits, 502 stolen bases, and 975 strikeouts off of this one. [FIMG=500]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/RbIAAOSwjgtf727r/s-l400.jpg[/FIMG]

seawolf17 Aug 30 2021 07:42 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

[IMG]https://cdn.sportscollectorsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/25121747/1978-Topps-Molitor-Trammell.jpg[/IMG] UL Washington played in parts of eleven seasons, and Mickey Klutts batted 1.000 in 1978. So there's that.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 30 2021 11:08 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

[IMG]https://cdn.sportscollectorsdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/25121747/1978-Topps-Molitor-Trammell.jpg[/IMG] UL Washington played in parts of eleven seasons, and Mickey Klutts batted 1.000 in 1978. So there's that. I collected that '78 set in real time. I loved that set. I had stopped collecting for a few years, losing interest in baseball cards and believing that I had outgrown the hobby. But I fell in love with that '78 set: I loved the simple card design, the photography - and the card stock was as thick as it ever was among cards that were produced while I was a fan. I was sucked back in. I collected that set the old school way - by buying them in packs at my local candy stores and other stores that sold baseball cards. And I never completed that set. I fell one card short. The one card I never pulled was the card you just displayed , above - the rookie card with the two future Hall-of-Famers.

seawolf17 Aug 30 2021 11:29 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

I'm finishing off the 74-79 run right now. 76 is done, and I've got a few dozen 75s and 77s left, mostly stars. I'm missing four 79s (Nolan Ryan, Bill Robinson, Pete Rose, and Sixto Lezcano) and just one 78 (George Brett). Just started on the 74s so I've got like 450 still to go.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 30 2021 11:31 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Can't think of any other rookie card where [CROSSOUT]both [/CROSSOUT] ALL players on the card have had their uniform numbers retired. Can youse? [FIMG=444]https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1yVUpt8QML._AC_SL1500_.jpg[/FIMG]

batmagadanleadoff Aug 30 2021 11:38 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Edgy MD wrote: I can't. But you get 3,007 hits, 502 stolen bases, and 975 strikeouts off of this one. [FIMG=500]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/RbIAAOSwjgtf727r/s-l400.jpg[/FIMG] Who d'ya think was the most promising rookie on that card, coming out of the gate? You could make the case for Berenguer, with his legendary, though uncontrollable triple digit fast-ball that he had in his youth.

seawolf17 Aug 30 2021 11:49 AM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Berenguer was hardly a young buck by that point, having already spent parts of three seasons in the bigs. And he wasn't even the best pitcher in the system at that point. Hubie was obviously a prospect, but wasn't exactly lighting the world on fire (although he did have a Jefferies-esque end to the 1980 season). But Mookie was the offensive star for the 1980 Tides.

Johnny Lunchbucket Aug 30 2021 12:04 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Ihe org saw Mookie coming, moving mazzilli.

Edgy MD Aug 30 2021 01:49 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

But Mookie was the offensive star for the 1980 Tides. I'm on Team Backman on that question. Four years younger and already on-basing like maniac. Funky Fact: The team lead in homers was was shared by three players with five apiece. These included Butch Benton and José Moreno, whose respective slugging percentage of .404 and .403 were the only one on the team over .400. Benton's next big league homer, of course, wil be his first. https://www.baseball-reference.com/register/team.cgi?id=4a23e15d

nymr83 Aug 30 2021 03:47 PM Re: Mets Retire Another Number!

Edgy MD wrote: I can't. But you get 3,007 hits, 502 stolen bases, and 975 strikeouts off of this one. [FIMG=500]https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/RbIAAOSwjgtf727r/s-l400.jpg[/FIMG] Who d'ya think was the most promising rookie on that card, coming out of the gate? You could make the case for Berenguer, with his legendary, though uncontrollable triple digit fast-ball that he had in his youth. Mookie looks like he just woke up in that picture "uhh hey guys, is it photo time? shit."