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Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

kcmets
Oct 03 2019 08:06 PM

Will artificial intelligence be advanced enough when the time comes

to know if a pitch doesn't enter the strike zone but a catcher magically

moves the ball to to a seemingly better spot it must be a strike?

Edgy MD
Oct 03 2019 10:02 PM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

That's the idea, anyhow. Mark the ball's location as it crosses the imaginary plane extending upward from the front of the plate.

Ceetar
Oct 04 2019 07:41 AM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

I imagine it won't call those strikes and many catchers will lose a lot of their worth.

batmagadanleadoff
Oct 04 2019 07:55 AM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age


Will artificial intelligence be advanced enough when the time comes

to know if a pitch doesn't enter the strike zone but a catcher magically

moves the ball to to a seemingly better spot it must be a strike?


Why wouldnt it? And why "when the time comes"? I'm certain that this was technologically achieved years ago, and that therefore, the technology is already advanced enough to call a dead-accurate ball or strike.



Also, you meant "must not be a strike, right?

kcmets
Oct 04 2019 08:15 AM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=23739 time=1570197322 user_id=68]Why wouldnt it?


Because it's a ball.

batmagadanleadoff
Oct 04 2019 08:21 AM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

=kcmets post_id=23744 time=1570198538 user_id=53]
=batmagadanleadoff post_id=23739 time=1570197322 user_id=68]Why wouldnt it?


Because it's a ball.


I'm losing you. So you're saying that you're confident that AI will be able to call a strike a strike but you're not sure if it can call a ball a ball? Is that what you're saying?



And what does pitch framing have anything to do with AI or robo-umping in the first place? The robo ump follows the ball all the way through an area that's been calibrated to be the strike zone. The robo ump doesn't give a shit about the catcher's movements.

Ceetar
Oct 04 2019 08:22 AM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age




Why wouldnt it? And why "when the time comes"? I'm certain that this was technologically achieved years ago, and that therefore, the technology is already advanced enough to call a dead-accurate ball or strike.






I've heard some say that maybe it's not quite there yet (from non-MLB people, so not just pro-game/umpire stuff) but I'm not sure if they're right or not. There's perhaps some fuzziness around it that would need to be firmed up if we went automated, player height, player's knee height, etc. HARD strikezone edges.



And it they might need to come in or up or down a few cm or something. It's possible the umps are calling balls on pitches that are barely ticking the corner of the back of the zone that are technically strikes and that those pitches might be virtually unhittable (operating under the assumption that a ball "in" the zone is a hittable one and if you don't you're penalized)



There's also hard proof that the strike zone is smaller on 0-2 and larger on 3-0. This almost definitely wouldn't be the case with a camera, but all of the players have this stuff ingrained into muscle memory and the like. it'll be a huge adjustment that first year, and likely messy.

batmagadanleadoff
Oct 04 2019 08:28 AM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age





Why wouldnt it? And why "when the time comes"? I'm certain that this was technologically achieved years ago, and that therefore, the technology is already advanced enough to call a dead-accurate ball or strike.






I've heard some say that maybe it's not quite there yet (from non-MLB people, so not just pro-game/umpire stuff) but I'm not sure if they're right or not. There's perhaps some fuzziness around it that would need to be firmed up if we went automated, player height, player's knee height, etc. HARD strikezone edges.



And it they might need to come in or up or down a few cm or something. It's possible the umps are calling balls on pitches that are barely ticking the corner of the back of the zone that are technically strikes and that those pitches might be virtually unhittable (operating under the assumption that a ball "in" the zone is a hittable one and if you don't you're penalized)



There's also hard proof that the strike zone is smaller on 0-2 and larger on 3-0. This almost definitely wouldn't be the case with a camera, but all of the players have this stuff ingrained into muscle memory and the like. it'll be a huge adjustment that first year, and likely messy.


Sure. My understanding is that the main glitches or holdups are not with the technology itself, but with the huge social implications that will come by replacing human umps with robotic balls and strikes callers. And will home plate umps be replaced entirely, or will they remain to call safe/out plays at home, and to decide whether a batter checked his swing or not, or whether he fouled tipped the ball as opposed to completely whiffing on it? And come to think of it, as I'm writing this post, I doubt that the home ump will be replaced, at least in my lifetime. MLB will simply install a robot ball/strike caller when the time comes.

Edgy MD
Oct 04 2019 08:42 AM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

Somebody's got to be there to tell everybody what the compooter said.



I'm more concerned with the vagueries, of what to call when the ball crosses the strike zone in part.



Some umps believe the whole ball should be in the zone, others want to see the meridian of the ball pass through the zone, and still others will give you a strike if a single stitch passes over the black. As far as I understand the rule book, that third guy is most correct, but he's probably not representative of the mainstream.

batmagadanleadoff
Oct 04 2019 08:47 AM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

Edgy MD wrote:



Some umps believe the whole ball should be in the zone, others want to see the meridian of the ball pass through the zone, and still others will give you a strike if a single stitch passes over the black. As far as I understand the rule book, that third guy is most correct, but he's probably not representative of the mainstream.


That's the easy part. Just enforce the rule. And if it's a robo-ump, then it's even easier. Just program the robo ump to call a strike if so much as a sliver of a hair of the ball crosses the strike zone.

batmagadanleadoff
Oct 04 2019 08:53 AM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=23746 time=1570198911 user_id=68]




And what does pitch framing have anything to do with AI or robo-umping in the first place? The robo ump follows the ball all the way through an area that's been calibrated to be the strike zone. The robo ump doesn't give a shit about the catcher's movements.



On second thought, I'm not even sure that the robo ump follows the ball at all. Maybe it's simply locked in on the strike zone and if the ball passes any part of it, a strike is called. Which still has nothing to do with pitch framing because the robot doesn't factor in the catcher's movements whether it's following the pitch or simply monitoring the zone.

kcmets
Oct 04 2019 09:15 AM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

http://www.kcmets.com/CPF/pitchfram.png>

batmagadanleadoff
Oct 04 2019 09:28 AM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

[FIMG=555]https://www.previewsworld.com/SiteImage/CatalogImage/STK630149?type=1[/FIMG]



Sigh.

kcmets
Oct 04 2019 10:20 AM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

http://www.kcmets.com/CPF/mentalo.jpg>

Frayed Knot
Oct 04 2019 01:24 PM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=23749 time=1570199327 user_id=68] And will home plate umps be replaced entirely, or will they remain to call safe/out plays at home, and to decide whether a batter checked his swing or not, or whether he fouled tipped the ball as opposed to completely whiffing on it? And come to think of it, as I'm writing this post, I doubt that the home ump will be replaced, at least in my lifetime. MLB will simply install a robot ball/strike caller when the time comes.



The HP ump isn't going anywhere. He still needs to be responsible for four tips, caught/not-caught, pop-ups, fair/foul up until the bases, safe/out at the plate and maybe at other bases when an outfield hit requires a rotation, as well as half-swings which they might even take back more control of those on account of not having to watch the placement of the ball. And he's still going to be the guy to indicate the B/S calls based on what robo-ump (and R-U administrator) tells him through an earpiece plus maybe a light indicator on the scoreboard based on a version I saw.

Centerfield
Oct 04 2019 01:42 PM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

Frayed Knot wrote:

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=23749 time=1570199327 user_id=68] And will home plate umps be replaced entirely, or will they remain to call safe/out plays at home, and to decide whether a batter checked his swing or not, or whether he fouled tipped the ball as opposed to completely whiffing on it? And come to think of it, as I'm writing this post, I doubt that the home ump will be replaced, at least in my lifetime. MLB will simply install a robot ball/strike caller when the time comes.


The HP ump isn't going anywhere. He still needs to be responsible for four tips, caught/not-caught, pop-ups, fair/foul up until the bases, safe/out at the plate and maybe at other bases when an outfield hit requires a rotation, as well as half-swings which they might even take back more control of those on account of not having to watch the placement of the ball. And he's still going to be the guy to indicate the B/S calls based on what robo-ump (and R-U administrator) tells him through an earpiece plus maybe a light indicator on the scoreboard based on a version I saw.



I imagine he'd be there to overrule glitches. Balls that bounce and then cross over the plate. Called ball four that's right down the middle.



It will be weird to yell at droids over bad ball/strike calls.

Edgy MD
Oct 04 2019 01:45 PM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

If the robot can't get that call scientifically correct instead of making it subjectively, I can't see what the point of the robot takeover would be.



Maybe we can get some Mexican League umps:



[YOUTUBE]SXdTvWWgwSM[/YOUTUBE]

batmagadanleadoff
Oct 04 2019 02:37 PM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

Hey dudes, I said all that about how a robo ump isn't gonna replace a human ump. This was about pitch framing and the concern that a pitch framer can fool the robo ump the same way he fools a human ump. I don't see how so long as the robo ump works properly. The robo ump's methodology for determining balls and strikes is completely different from that of a human ump. For starters, and finishers, the robo ump's view won't be obstructed. Jeez, we have cameras that can see in super high definition from like 10 football fields away.

41Forever
Oct 04 2019 02:43 PM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

Best pitch framing ever.



kcmets
Oct 04 2019 03:07 PM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=23790 time=1570221428 user_id=68]This was about pitch framing and the concern that a pitch framer can fool the robo ump the same way he fools a human ump. I don't see how so long as the robo ump works properly.


Well, it was more a way for me to sarcastically kvetch about pitch framing (and the

people that applaud the 'skill' as some magical baseball voodoo instead of what it really

is) one more time before the winter snow rolls on in.



Of course laser beams or whatever technology used will not take into account where a mitt

is moved to. And to that I will give a loud a resounding yay when that day comes.

Frayed Knot
Oct 04 2019 03:12 PM
Re: Pitch Framing in the Robtic-Ump Age

=Centerfield post_id=23777 time=1570218138 user_id=65]
I imagine he'd be there to overrule glitches. Balls that bounce and then cross over the plate. Called ball four that's right down the middle.



Yes, the plans I've heard mentioned calls for the HP ump to have discretion to overrule the bot and a pitch bouncing through the zone has been cited as the most likely situation where it would happen

because R-U WILL call that a strike.

If the ball down the middle is being called a ball (or the way-off-the-plate equivalent a strike) then they've got a lot more problems than just how that pitch will be called. It's why it's a good idea that

they're road-testing this before they plan (hope?) to open on Broadway.