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ESPN Baseball Tonight podcast on Beltran

41Forever Nov 08 2019 08:55 AM

Buster Olney, Tim Kurkjian and Keith Law beat the snot out of the Mets for the Beltran hiring on a podcast I played while driving home last night. Buster talked about how Perez would have been the better managerial hire. Kirkjian said Beltran will need a lot of patience to deal with the "dysfunction" of the front office. Then Law gets loose with: "I wasn't surprised at all. I think it's a terrible hiring. I think it's a terrible process. This isn't the least bit surprising. This is how they hired their GM, right? In both cases, the hired a guy with absolutely zero relevant experience for the job. They hired off the interview. And maybe they hired because they wanted to make some headlines. But they ignored the resume. Managers without experience generally -- there are exceptions -- but generally they don't fare very well the first time around. Not only does Carlos Beltran doesn't have any managerial experience, he doesn't even have any coaching experience. He hasn't done anything in his life remotely close to what he's going to be asked to do as a Major League manager. Now, you could say, and I'm sure the Mets might argue, 'We don't care. We're going to make a lot of the managerial decisions from the front office.' To which I say, 'Good luck with that.' That really hasn't worked out in a lot of situations. Beltran may be a wonderful guy. He might be a great manager of people. We have no idea. And the Mets have no idea. They have absolutely no idea whether he's going to be any good at this job. They can't, because there is absolutely no evidence or direction to say what kind of manager he's going to be. If I were a Mets fan, I'd say, 'Oh my God, this is more of the same." The other two pretty much piled on, though without as much vitriol as Law. Then later they get to the Cubs, and they make slight mention of the David Ross hiring, and I'm thinking, "Doesn't everything they just said about Beltran apply to Ross?" Where's the outrage there? The Cubs fired a very successful, very experienced manger. A guy who was hired by another team practically before the Cubs could ask him to turn in his keys. And they replaced him with a guy with the same "special assistant" title as Beltran had. And that's all good?

Johnny Lunchbucket Nov 08 2019 09:37 AM Re: ESPN Baseball Tonight podcast on Beltran

I'm not as pessimistic as those guys but I agree there's something fishy with how the Mets go about about things, at some level it's a giant compromise and comes with lots of questions they seem to believe will be washed away by the sheer heat of the announcement.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 08 2019 09:42 AM Re: ESPN Baseball Tonight podcast on Beltran

Why would anyone dare second guess the Wilpons? Two first place finishes in 31 seasons. I should stop using that phrase because it's gonna become so cliche if it hasn't already, that it'll lose all meaning and all your eyeballs will just glaze over it. I know what to do ... next season at some point, I'll be saying two first place finishes in 32 seasons.

Ceetar Nov 08 2019 09:58 AM Re: ESPN Baseball Tonight podcast on Beltran

next season at some point you'll be saying twice as many World Series appearances and as many wins as the Yankees in 15 years, but sure. Anyway, did Brodie make a single 'blunder' that you could attribute to him not knowing what to do? That you couldn't see various other GMs doing? Law's a hack. I believe even the Mets have a better idea what it takes to manage than Keith Law. Certainly that Beltran does. You think he learned nothing in major league clubhouses for 2 decades? Most of that argument is just gate-keeping nonsense. Of course they hired off the interview! That's what interviews are for! Oh but why not just take the safe Girardi pick? Is that what Law thinks? Probably. That's what a well run club like the Yankees would do right? They wouldn't pass over the tried and true Girardi for an ex-player manager that's never done it before.

Centerfield Nov 08 2019 10:20 AM Re: ESPN Baseball Tonight podcast on Beltran

I feel like I should know better than to argue with you. Still. I never learn. next season at some point you'll be saying twice as many World Series appearances and as many wins as the Yankees in 15 years, but sure. I'm not sure what that means. The Yankees won the WS in 2009. They've won 5 since the Mets last won. If you're trying to say that Mets have been successful as compared to this team or that, the Yankees are a bad choice. Anyway, did Brodie make a single 'blunder' that you could attribute to him not knowing what to do? That you couldn't see various other GMs doing? Brodie made countless blunders. Some of them are among the worst blunders I've seen anyone make. Whether this had anything to do with his inexperience or whether those moves were a directive from Wilpon we don't know. But Law's point is that we hired a GM with no experience and he was terrible. And now it seems like they're doing the same thing again. I'm not sure it's apples to apples like Law is suggesting. I think there are key differences, but again, defending Brodie's performance is probably not a winning argument. Law's a hack. I believe even the Mets have a better idea what it takes to manage than Keith Law. Certainly that Beltran does. You think he learned nothing in major league clubhouses for 2 decades? Most of that argument is just gate-keeping nonsense. I don't know what you mean by "hack". Keith Law seems pretty smart to me. I don't know how good he'd be a hiring a manager. We've never seen what he would do in such a situation. But we do know that the Wilpons are not very good. Their recent history includes Art Howe, Willie Randolph, Jerry Manuel and Mickey Callaway. That's pretty bad. They haven't had a good one since Bobby V and only Terry qualifies as "not terrible" this century. Of course they hired off the interview! That's what interviews are for! No. Interviews are part of the process. Law explicitly says they hired off the interview and ignored the resume. If you feel your criticisms of Law are valid, there is no need to distort his words. Oh but why not just take the safe Girardi pick? Is that what Law thinks? Probably. That's what a well run club like the Yankees would do right? They wouldn't pass over the tried and true Girardi for an ex-player manager that's never done it before. Again, Law tells you exactly what he thinks. And whether you agree with him or not, there is no need to attribute fake statements to him to undermine his credibility. In fact, when you do that, you only serve to undermine your own credibility. I don't agree with Keith. I think there are tangible differences between the Beltran hire and the Brodie hire, but at the end of the day, we have no idea if this will work or not. And we have no idea how Carlos Beltran will be as a manager. I do think that eventually, if not immediately, Jeff will meddle. And micromanage. Because it's Jeff. How will Beltran react? We'll all find out together.

Ceetar Nov 08 2019 11:05 AM Re: ESPN Baseball Tonight podcast on Beltran

well, you're wrong on Brodie and Beltran was a good hire. Maybe he'll be bad, hell, anything can happen. I've said this elsewhere but if we're going to have a separate thread about a worthless podcast and three people who's opinions I don't respect, i'll say it again. #1 qualification for a manager is to get along, work well, and be in sync with the front office. Given that, it's almost impossible to hire a bad manager. and Willie Randolph was not that. Mickey wasn't really _terrible_ either, he's certainly not why lost, though he actually seemed to get worse rather than better. He gave up some of his good convictions. Jerry Manuel wasn't hired, though he's probably the worst manager the Mets have ever had. But either way, it's super subjective and there's a ton of information we don't have. Just because the Wilpons are bottom tier doesn't mean random pot shots by hacks like Law are accurate.

Edgy MD Nov 08 2019 11:42 AM Re: ESPN Baseball Tonight podcast on Beltran

I agree that it's way overboard to say that Beltran has zero relevant experience for the job. I'll also repeat that no two people can agree particularly well on what makes a good manager, and how much responsibility he should get for a team's won-loss record. Extremism in your hot takes is a good way to end up looking foolish. Most of the game is played between the 40-yard-lines, to use an awkward metaphor.

Johnny Lunchbucket Nov 08 2019 11:43 AM Re: ESPN Baseball Tonight podcast on Beltran

Joel Sherman's assessment of Mickey as a "poor actor who could not remember his lines and stumbled through ad-libs" rung true with me, and I think he gets to the Mets motives in this column pretty skillfully: https://nypost.com/2019/11/03/mets-risky-media-obsession-put-carlos-beltran-over-the-top/ (speaking of media Ceetar probably doesn't respect)

41Forever Nov 08 2019 11:57 AM Re: ESPN Baseball Tonight podcast on Beltran

I just thought it was odd they would pile on the Mets and ignore the Cubs for doing something very similar.

G-Fafif Nov 08 2019 11:57 AM Re: ESPN Baseball Tonight podcast on Beltran

Perez is an ESPN colleague, which I can't help but think influences their views that he deserved the shot. I get the feeling that if Beltran had been hired by any number of other organizations, it would be hailed as forward-thinking on many levels. The Mets and their version of a process don't get the benefit of the doubt.

Centerfield Nov 08 2019 01:21 PM Re: ESPN Baseball Tonight podcast on Beltran

=41Forever post_id=26239 time=1573239445 user_id=69] I just thought it was odd they would pile on the Mets and ignore the Cubs for doing something very similar.

I guess in their eyes the Mets haven't earned the benefit of the doubt while the Cubs have. But I'm with you. If Beltran could potentially be a good move for others, it could work for the Mets too. Boone and Cora are great examples of not needing experience.



I think it's very different from hiring Brodie. First off, every manager hired was a first time manager at some point. Secondly, teams have done it to great success before. The agent-turned-GM thing was a different animal for many reasons. And seeing how it's played out, it's clear that Jeff was not looking for a GM. He was looking for a spokesman.

Ceetar Nov 08 2019 04:02 PM Re: ESPN Baseball Tonight podcast on Beltran

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Joel Sherman's assessment of Mickey as a "poor actor who could not remember his lines and stumbled through ad-libs" rung true with me, and I think he gets to the Mets motives in this column pretty skillfully: https://nypost.com/2019/11/03/mets-risky-media-obsession-put-carlos-beltran-over-the-top/ (speaking of media Ceetar probably doesn't respect) Not to delve to deeply, because of the quotes obviously, but I did read that one. It's weird, I interpreted that as "I don't give a crap about you, the media" and wasn't so much that he didn't know his lines, it's that no one had bothered to care about how they'd be interpreted.

LWFS Nov 12 2019 09:01 PM Re: ESPN Baseball Tonight podcast on Beltran

well, you're wrong on Brodie and Beltran was a good hire. Maybe he'll be bad, hell, anything can happen. I've said this elsewhere but if we're going to have a separate thread about a worthless podcast and three people who's opinions I don't respect, i'll say it again. Assertion isn't an argument. If you're going to keep saying things like "you're wrong on Brodie" or "Keith Law's a hack," you should probably back it up with something, or your other arguments start to wither around 'em. Brodie made several different player moves (Cano/Diaz trade*, signing Lowrie**, signing Familia***) that seemed questionable at best at the time, and ended up backfiring. That the team eventually succeeded to some extent despite these moves doesn't countervail the badness of those moves; one could argue that how badly the moves cost a playoff-contending team with limited resources makes them doubly-damning. You could say the same about going the half-measure route during the leadup to the trade deadline. Shit-talking the NL East before the season, and being consequently somewhat mealy-mouthed about accepting his responsibility for the team during low ebbs (a LOT of "organizational failure" and "it's on the organization" rather than "it's on me," IIRC) was probably... related to lack of experience. Chair-throwing and screaming at subordinates on multiple occasions within earshot of reporters... ditto. Perez is an ESPN colleague, which I can't help but think influences their views that he deserved the shot. This definitely occurred to me. I mean, I don't think it's the reason they feel this way, but I think it has to play into the degree of the vitriol. * It should not escape notice that this deal very nearly included Jeff McNeil as a damn throw-in, instead of Gerson Bautista. ** His former client. His injury-prone-during-the-extent-of-his-business-relationship-with-BVW former client. *** For three years, and 10 per... before the market for relievers was set. Guys like Miller and Ottavino who would likely have been better fits for the, um, defensive strategy our team used, were readily available for comparable or lesser prices later in the offseason.