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Sign-Stealing 2.0

A Boy Named Seo Nov 12 2019 01:14 PM

The Athletic just dropped a really good piece on the Astros relaying opposing catcher signs to their hitters by use of sound - banging a trashcan when it was an offspeed pitch. If you don't have the Athletic, it's great, you should get it. Dig this passage: Early in the 2017 season, at least two uniformed Astros got together to start the process. One was a hitter who was struggling at the plate and had benefited from sign stealing with a previous team, according to club sources; another was a coach who wanted to help. They were said to strongly believe that some opposing teams were already up to no good. Who on the 2017 Astros fits this bill to you? Josh Reddick's splits were really good early in the season, so likely not him. My first thought was it was Brian McCann. It was his first season in Houston after 3 in the Bronx, he had a rough May (.204/.339/.408) but his April and June were very good and his first half was better than his second half. Then there's Carlos Beltran. 40 years old. Himself coming off 3 years with Yankees (and a third of a season with the Rangers), he hit .241/.283/.627 in April, rebounded to a decent .253/.313./.483 in May and .200/.260/.400 in June. Could Carlos be the mole? Yes, the mole.

Johnny Lunchbucket Nov 12 2019 02:21 PM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

Good sussing. I don't subscribe to The Athletic. The name is literally too jocky for me

LWFS Nov 12 2019 05:44 PM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

That is some fine sussin'. "AT LEAST two uniformed Astros." Who's to say that Beltran and McCann-- redolent of two years of MFY stink together in 2015-16-- weren't both in on it?

HahnSolo Nov 12 2019 07:58 PM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

I didn't read it, no Athletic sub here, but if their system was based at least partly on literally making loud noises in the dugout when offspeed pitches were coming, how in the world did opponents not catch on?

bmfc1 Nov 12 2019 08:01 PM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/status/1194348775965437952

LWFS Nov 12 2019 08:22 PM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

The video's pretty damning. Also worth mentioning: that a current player/ex-Astro (Fiers) is going on-record with this assertion is HUGE. The Astros (non-respond) [urhttps://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28066522/ex-astros-pitcher-mike-fiers-team-stole-signs-camera]respond: [On] Tuesday, the Astros released a statement. "Regarding the story posted by The Athletic earlier today, the Houston Astros organization has begun an investigation in cooperation with Major League Baseball," it said. "It would not be appropriate to comment further on this matter at this time." At the winter meetings, Astros general manager Jeff Luhnow said the team wanted to gather facts before discussing the matter further. "I have heard what you all have heard, which is allegations," he said. "This isn't the first one I heard and it's not the first one you all have heard. Like I said, I think the best course of action is not to speculate right now. We are going to look into it with cooperation of the MLB and we will find out what there is."

Edgy MD Nov 12 2019 09:15 PM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

So, Gattis is our guy, then. I think video guy is overstating it a little (shitty for baseball?), but yeah, the case is pretty damning. Also damning may be that Gattis went through 2019 without a big league offer. Pure speculation, but that may suggest that his cheating had become an open secret. It also may suggest that it was a shit year to be a free agent, but he sure seemed to end his career a little early.

Ceetar Nov 13 2019 07:18 AM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

That video. Am I supposed to be pissed at the Astros for doing something that a pitcher and catcher turned around on them mid-AB and got an out? Maybe BECAUSE of the sign stealing? Did the hitter know to not expect a bang after the mound meeting? Or was he expecting fastball there and got a change-up and flailed and struck out as a result? Especially since it sounds like a "pine tar" open secret thing that everyone is doing.

LWFS Nov 13 2019 07:45 AM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

It's the use of real-time streaming video that takes it beyond the pale, right? I mean, like video dude, I'm all ABOUT stealing signs with your eyes, ears, and what's behind/between them.

Frayed Knot Nov 13 2019 07:47 AM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

if their system was based at least partly on literally making loud noises in the dugout when offspeed pitches were coming, how in the world did opponents not catch on? Oh they did. This was talked about both during the ALCS & the WS, the fact that other teams here too many well-timed bangs and whistles for it to be anything else but sign stealing. So, with the usual caveat that we don't know all the details yet, when you throw in the story by ex-Astro Fiers onto the mix, this is potentially YUGE. Stealing signs is one thing. Stealing them via the use of cameras, telescopes, etc where the visiting club has no realistic answer to, goes far beyond what is acceptable. iow, if you're going to cheat, you at least have to do it within the rules [oe: what LWFS said] And given the sophistication that would be needed to pull something like this off (a relay from the camera to the dugout and so on) there's no way that the field manager and general manager couldn't know about this. So depending on if and when MLB gets the facts on who knew what and when did they know it, we could potentially be looking at lengthy suspensions for the manager & GM in addition to the usual fines and possibly draft pick penalties.

Johnny Lunchbucket Nov 13 2019 08:10 AM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

Astros are a disgrace between hiring sexist finance bros, shady management, the deny-and-cover-your-ass approach to PR. Eff them

Centerfield Nov 13 2019 08:11 AM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

Guilty. They should have to give us Altuve.

Centerfield Nov 13 2019 08:13 AM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Astros are a disgrace between hiring sexist finance bros, shady management, the deny-and-cover-your-ass approach to PR. Eff them https://larrybrownsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/yuli-gurriel-asian.jpg>

bmfc1 Nov 13 2019 09:56 AM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

During the World Series, WSH was so confident that HOU was doing something that they 1) gave signs as if a runner was on 2B even if there wasn't and 2) changed signs several times during the game. As FK said, suspensions might happen and I wonder if it will be at a New Orleans Saints magnitude. [BLOCKQUOTE]From The Washington Post: During the World Series, the Washington Nationals went to great lengths to alter and disguise their system of catchers' signs in preparation for playing at Minute Maid Park, with pitchers and catchers using five different sets of signs. https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/11/12/astros-sign-stealing-mlb/[/BLOCKQUOTE] Side-question that might be irrelevant: Brodie is AJ Hinch's buddy. Did he know?

Frayed Knot Nov 13 2019 10:36 AM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

During the World Series, WSH was so confident that HOU was doing something that they 1) gave signs as if a runner was on 2B even if there wasn't and 2) changed signs several times during the game. As FK said, suspensions might happen and I wonder if it will be at a New Orleans Saints magnitude. [BLOCKQUOTE]From The Washington Post: During the World Series, the Washington Nationals went to great lengths to alter and disguise their system of catchers' signs in preparation for playing at Minute Maid Park, with pitchers and catchers using five different sets of signs. And they did all that specifically because they were pre-warned about Houston's ability to steal signs. The interesting part going forward is whether that "ability" was natural or electronically enhanced, as well as how much of it MLB is going to be able to prove. One wonders if Houston felt compelled to 'step-up' (so to speak) their electronic game after being the victim in the St Louis computer hacking case. And, yeah, I think this could reach a New Orleans Saints level.

Edgy MD Nov 13 2019 11:06 AM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

I anticipate it becoming another red state/blue state clusterfuck and getting conflated into the impeachment hearings.

bmfc1 Nov 13 2019 11:17 AM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

"If you're not going to penalize a team for this, the rules are meaningless". v. "Where's the crime? Everyone does it!"

Edgy MD Nov 13 2019 12:09 PM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

Something like.

Frayed Knot Nov 13 2019 12:41 PM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

"If you're not going to penalize a team for this, the rules are meaningless". v. "Where's the crime? Everyone does it!" If "everybody does" THIS -- 'This' meaning what Fiers claims the 2017 Astros did w/cameras and what that video implies they're still doing -- then the sport has a bigger problem on their hands then they apparently realize and a whole buncha shit's about to come down. But given that the Astros have won 311 games over the last three season while going to three ALCS series (winning twice) and two World Series (winning one) some kind of STRONG message has got to be sent that goes beyond just fines, draft picks, and firing some front office go-getter than no one outside of team geeks (like us) have ever heard of. This isn't the NCAA where you can simply "vacate" championships and/or "subtract" career wins from head coaches (like anyone pays attention to that kind of shit anyway). btw, the Astros have a slightly worse record at home as compared to on the road over the last three seasons combined [154-89 vs 157-86] with only a HUGE home advantage in 2019 [60-21 vs 47-34] making it even that close.

Ceetar Nov 13 2019 02:10 PM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

I mean, come on. Buzz a watch that they're wearing under their clothes. No one is the wiser. or is that just what the other 29 teams are doing?

Edgy MD Nov 14 2019 07:05 AM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/tykelly11/status/1194750460780924928[/TWEET]

batmagadanleadoff Nov 14 2019 07:46 AM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

Beltran deeply implicated in Astros sign stealing scandal. https://nypost.com/2019/11/14/mets-carlos-beltran-played-key-role-in-astros-sign-stealing-report/ Excerpt: Mets manager Carlos Beltran may be in hot water after a report said he helped plan the Astros' alleged illegal sign-stealing system during the 2017 season.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 14 2019 04:59 PM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

Wow. This thread went suddenly silent.

Edgy MD Nov 14 2019 09:25 PM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

The damning tape above leaves a missing link to the story, though. Because we're watching the video as we hear the bang! we assume that the bang is triggered by someone watching the video, rather than someone in the same timeframe picking up the signals with naked eyes through some other sort of (legal-ish) subterfuge. Of course, a gap of plausible deniability to slither through sure doesn't mean they aren't getting the signs through the video. And if Fiers has filled in those details and it does implicate named people, it actually is an advantage to the investigation that this is breaking during the offseason. It keeps the team from circling the wagons and getting their stories straight, so corroboration probably shouldn't be that hard to attain.

LWFS Nov 14 2019 09:44 PM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

There's almost no way the signs could have been relayed that fast WITHOUT using video. And what's the less-egregious alternative, since they didn't have anybody on base? Guy in CF stands with world-record-speed texting fingers? Beltran deeply implicated in Astros sign stealing scandal. https://nypost.com/2019/11/14/mets-carlos-beltran-played-key-role-in-astros-sign-stealing-report/ Excerpt: Mets manager Carlos Beltran may be in hot water after a report said he helped plan the Astros' alleged illegal sign-stealing system during the 2017 season. I mean, on the plus side... so was Alex Cora. Which is a pretty good portend for this year, right?

Edgy MD Nov 14 2019 10:03 PM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

=LWFS post_id=26584 time=1573793086 user_id=84] There's almost no way the signs could have been relayed that fast WITHOUT using video. And what's the less-egregious alternative, since they didn't have anybody on base? Guy in CF stands with world-record-speed texting fingers?

I get that, more or less, but people (presidents) slither through on flimsier deniability.



I don't think they will though, because like I wrote, it's the offseason and it will be hard for the players to agree on a story, plus there are guys who've moved on who have less motivation to cover up. And even if it was in-season and the whole organization had the chance to circle the wagons, they'd still probably futz it up.



I never thought this season would end with me feeling sympathetic toward the Nats and antipathetic toward Houston.

Ceetar Nov 15 2019 08:56 AM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/No_Little_Plans/status/1195364987549704192[/TWEET]

Edgy MD Nov 15 2019 09:00 AM Re: Sign-Stealing 2.0

That's a poor approximation of Astros' colors, I think.