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On Valentin, Split from Quotes Thread

Edgy DC Apr 09 2006 03:18 PM

Valentin --- not looking like he's long for this team.

DocTee Apr 09 2006 03:32 PM

wrong thread, dude.

Edgy DC Apr 09 2006 03:39 PM

Stupit mi.

MFS62 Apr 12 2006 09:26 AM

Edgy DC wrote: Valentin --- not looking like he's long for this team. Didn't he sign a two year contract? Or was that Franco? Later

Yancy Street Gang Apr 12 2006 09:27 AM

Franco has two, Valentin has one, and it was guaranteed before spring training.

abogdan Apr 12 2006 09:29 AM

Franco has 2 years. Valentin has 1-year at $912K.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 12 2006 09:32 AM

Y'know, giving Valentin a start at 2B might not be a bad idea. Dude has power, or used to.

Edgy DC Apr 12 2006 09:39 AM

This is funny that this thread-within-a-thread had legs, being that it started because I was IGTing in the wrong thread. Getting Valentin a start a second makes a whole lot of sense. He needs the reps.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 12 2006 09:39 AM

And don't forget Franco broke in as a ss in the Paleolithic era.

sharpie Apr 12 2006 09:50 AM

Valentin is probably the Mets' third option at second, third option at short and maybe second at third. Reyes and Wright play every day and Woodward, a better defender, would be the most likely fill-in second baseman until Matsui gets back. He was hurt much of last season and probably needs playing time in order to get his stroke back but I can't see how that is going to happen unless he accepts a minor league assignment, which he almost surely won't.

MFS62 Apr 12 2006 09:51 AM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: And don't forget Franco broke in as a ss in the Paleolithic era. He was Honus Wagner's boyhood idol. Later

Johnny Dickshot Apr 12 2006 09:58 AM

sharpie wrote: Valentin is probably the Mets' third option at second, third option at short and maybe second at third. Reyes and Wright play every day and Woodward, a better defender, would be the most likely fill-in second baseman until Matsui gets back. He was hurt much of last season and probably needs playing time in order to get his stroke back but I can't see how that is going to happen unless he accepts a minor league assignment, which he almost surely won't. Yeah well, I don't see any harm in giving your third option a start every now and then. Leave your first option to fill in on D late and your second to PH or cover SS or 3rd in the event of an emergency. It's only one game and it's April.

metirish Apr 12 2006 10:00 AM

Yesterday I wrote this and FK responded... ] Yeah I agree with Nymr83, maybe Wags needed the work, I have no idea but I'm guessing they didn't htink he would throw that many pirches, ans can we release Valentin, no way he is the first option of the bench, he sucks donkey balls. Frayed Knot... ] Valentin is 0-fer-4. Do we really want to be throwing guys to the wolves based just on that? And, if so, who's your choice for lefty off the bench to put a bit a fear into the opposing manager?

abogdan Apr 12 2006 10:54 AM

I don't think that Valentin is striking fear in anyone. That being said, the Mets really don't have any great LH PH options in the system. I'd be all for giving Todd Self a shot at the role, but not based on four at bats from Valentin.

Yancy Street Gang Apr 12 2006 10:56 AM

Maybe they can give Rusty Staub a two-year contract.

Edgy DC Apr 12 2006 11:04 AM

I think the two-year thing has run its course. I'd like to enjoy 2006 without regular worry that the Mets are overextended for 2007 --- especially when they aren't.

Frayed Knot Apr 12 2006 11:07 AM

abogdan wrote: I don't think that Valentin is striking fear in anyone. That being said, the Mets really don't have any great LH PH options in the system. I'd be all for giving Todd Self a shot at the role, but not based on four at bats from Valentin. He certainly isn't scaring anyone at the moment but does possess the power to do so, something the only other LH off the bench - Endy Chavez - does not. The problem w/Self is that he doesn't give you the defensive versatility that Valentin does and instead would just be another 1st baseman that doesn't play. I realize that we've had almost zero variation from the standard lineup so far but that certainly won't last forever and, while Valentin isn't going to win a gold glove anywhere, he can play 4 or 5 different spots in a pinch. He also switch-hits.

smg58 Apr 12 2006 11:44 AM

How about replacing Valentin with Chase Lambin? Valentin just might accept a demotion if he thinks he needs the AB's. I can't see another major league team biting on him right now.

seawolf17 Apr 12 2006 11:53 AM

Problem with Lambin is that he's not on the 40, so you'd have to make a move to add him. (Of course, you could dump Valentin, obviously.) I'd think they'd rather Lambin get regular ABs in AAA than rot on the major league bench.

Edgy DC Apr 12 2006 11:54 AM

]How about replacing Valentin with Chase Lambin? If the alleged problem is that Valentin is rotting on the bench, why? OE: Or as Seawolf said more explicitly...

Gwreck Apr 12 2006 12:40 PM

I hate to be the one to suggest this, but isn't it possible that Valentin is merely holding Kaz Matsui's spot on the roster until he comes back from the DL? Matsui can also bat LH, can also play 2B, and has some pop in his bat too...

Rotblatt Apr 12 2006 12:47 PM

Good thought, GWreck. Someone's got to go down whenever we call up Matsui, and he probably does make Valentin redundant.

seawolf17 Apr 12 2006 12:55 PM

Who is this Matsui character? Is he some sort of savior from a foreign land? I've never heard of him.

Frayed Knot Apr 12 2006 01:02 PM

Might all depend on when KazMat comes back (assuming he doesn't sprain his toe-nail or sumthin during rehab). - If it's sooner rather than later it could either be Valentin or Chavez I think trying to dump Valentin would mean we'd lose him, not sure if he'd accept a demotion unless it comes with a semi-promise of it being only temporary. Chavez, I assume, could be sent down with little problem. Diaz might be a candidate just to get him steady work but I think he'll get enough up here eventually. - If it's later rather than sooner and AndyHandy is still hitting a buck-&-change it could be him being sent down.

Yancy Street Gang Apr 12 2006 01:07 PM

And let's not forget that Woodward has seen very little action. He's probably safe because he seems to be a Willie favorite, but the fact remains, he hasn't been playing.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 12 2006 01:21 PM

It says here that Hernandez, like Igby, goes down --if only to save some face for Matsui, hand him the job right back, NQA, while Andy plays every day, and Matsui plays himself out of a job. I don't see the Mets paying Valentin a season's pay for a handful of appearances. Team policy states "We pay for our gross errors of judgment in the standings, not the bank account."

Frayed Knot Apr 12 2006 01:40 PM

It's a small sample so far, but AndyHandy is hitting .100+ with zero power and zero walks. Assuming that that continues for a while, what would constitute Matsui "playing his way out of a job" that isn't worse than what's already going on?

Bret Sabermetric Apr 12 2006 01:48 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 12 2006 04:07 PM

Hernandez has not yet demonstrated that's he's never going to be able to hit well enough to hold down an MLB job. He's been terrible so far, but he could improve (almost certainly will improve off the execrable start of his MLB career). Matsui OTOH has demonstrated to all but the most hardcore Metsaholics that he's not a MLB player. Even if he does qualify, in Metsoholic eyes, as a marginal MLB talent, it's for a shitload less than he's being paid, so it's not as though the games invested in 2006 in his sorry oft-injured ass will pay any dividends beyond this year, but Hernandez just might. OE: fixed spelling of big word. Astonished no one has busted chops over misspelled big word. Flobgarstid.

Elster88 Apr 12 2006 01:51 PM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: Hernandez has not yet demonstrated that's he's never going to be able to hit well enough to hold down an MLB job. He's been terrible so far, but he could improve (almost certainly will improve off the exercrable start of his MLB career). That's nice. Unfortunately, we're trying to win this year. Let Andy learn how to hit in the minors if we have someone who would be an improvement. Sadly, Kaz may not be much of an improvement.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 12 2006 01:57 PM

I think it's funny that Bret here thinks he's carrying on an argument with Willie when they're basically in agreement.

Frayed Knot Apr 12 2006 02:01 PM

"Matsui OTOH has demonstrated to all but the most hardcore Metsaholics that he's not a MLB player." Before a late-season injury that curtailed his '04 season, he was headed for a .275 BA with around 50 XBH. Shirley you, being the captain of; 'Can't-carry-Ordonez-with-that-bat' Committee, can't be claiming that Andy's glove will "make up for" the diff in offense unless his suddenly (or even eventually) improves a whole helluva lot. I don't care what they're paying KazMat - dumping him doesn't cost any more than keeping him - but if he can hit better than the temp incumbent then I'll play him until I think otherwise.

vtmet Apr 12 2006 02:22 PM

not to rain on anyone's "AH can't hit" assumption, since his overall average backs up the assumption and he does not have power...but, after having an 0-12 in his first 3 games, he's got 4 hits in his last 11 at bats since...2 hits against Dontrelle, while most of the rest of the team did nothing...I think there is still hope there...Rusty or not, Valentin has power, but is a lousy hitter/fielder. Valentin hasn't hit over .249 since 2001 with each season having a worse average...

Edgy DC Apr 12 2006 02:23 PM

I don't think that's everyone's assumption. Or necessarily anyone's.

vtmet Apr 12 2006 02:35 PM

not saying necessarily that is a position here...just that in cyberworld in general, there are many Mets fans that feel that AH has no business being in the majors because he, so far, has hit less than Kevin Baez...

Elster88 Apr 12 2006 02:41 PM

Well, that's a theory that has some validity. To this point, he has done nothing to earn a starting job other than to play a position with no other options. The place to learn to hit major league pitching is not in a starting major league role. Now, if he learns to hit as the de facto starter, that's a different story. But if he remains in his current state until Matsui is ready, then Matsui should go in. No ifs, ands, or buts. I disagree violently with the "learn on the job" theory and the "he's shown promise" theory. Unless peeps really think at this point (RIGHT NOW!!!) that AH is a better hitter than KazMat.

Elster88 Apr 12 2006 02:44 PM

The argument in Paragraph 1 in the above post may also apply to Matsui, of course.

Edgy DC Apr 12 2006 03:22 PM

]I disagree violently with the "learn on the job" theory and the "he's shown promise" theory. How do you feel about the "You don't mess with a winning lineup" theory --- an old-school baseball truism that Willie Randolph has alluded to, if not wholeheartedly endorsed? I think it's his way of showing confidence in Hernandez. The answer seems obvious --- Matsui comes back, start him twice a week. If he outplays Hernandez, start him a little more. If he doesn't, a little less, until some balance achieved. That won't keep us, the press, or Randolph from belaboring the pont.

Elster88 Apr 12 2006 03:24 PM

]The answer seems obvious --- Matsui comes back, start him twice a week. If he outplays Hernandez, start him a little more. If he doesn't, a little less, until some balance achieved. That won't keep us, the press, or Randolph from belaboring the pont. I don't like this. To me, this belabors the problem more. Whenever Matsui comes back, immediately start whoever the better player is. If he proves himself to be unworthy, replace him.

Edgy DC Apr 12 2006 03:32 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 12 2006 03:33 PM

It's done like this all the time. Sometimes the better player isn't clear, especially when one disappeared due to injury and the other hasn't lit things up in his stead. Managing is trying to find guys favorable spots. When more than one guy is available and neither is clearly the better player, you find both of them spots until one of them asserts himself and makes himself more worthy of the majority of spots than the other. I don't see it belaboring, when you have two guys available, to give them both oportunities to flourish or fail.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 12 2006 03:32 PM

The guy said "Kevin Baez"

Yancy Street Gang Apr 12 2006 03:35 PM

I almost always ignore the signature lines in the posts, but at the end of each of Johnny's posts I hear a little dog barking in my head. Woof!

vtmet Apr 12 2006 03:43 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: The guy said "Kevin Baez" Baez hit .179 in his MLB career... AH is hitting .174 so far in '06... Difference is, Baez's .179 will forever be his MLB batting average; whereas AH still has a chance of improving his... Tim Bogar & Kevin Baez, now those were some fine days of great hitting from our middle infield prospects at the MLB level...

Elster88 Apr 12 2006 03:59 PM

Edgy DC wrote: It's done like this all the time. Doesn't mean it's right. :-) Edgy DC wrote: Sometimes the better player isn't clear, especially when one disappeared due to injury and the other hasn't lit things up in his stead. But this time it is clear, at least IMHO. Matsui is a better hitter. Edgy DC wrote: I don't see it belaboring, when you have two guys available, to give them both oportunities to flourish or fail. I have no stats to back this up, but I see it as belaboring because a player is MUCH more likely to fail if he hits irregularly, such as two times a week. Eliminates the chance of getting into a rhythm or hot streak or whatever you want to call it. All hitters say that pinch hitting is much harder than regular hitting. It follows that hitting one or two games a week is harder than hitting when you get to see pitches every day. (It drove me bananas last year when Kaz came back in late-July or whatever, got two hits, and in the next game Cairo and his .175 batting average was back in there.) "Well, maybe he would hit better if given the opportunity to play every day." Throw one guy in there, see what he does.

Gwreck Apr 12 2006 04:13 PM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: And let's not forget that Woodward has seen very little action. He's probably safe because he seems to be a Willie favorite, but the fact remains, he hasn't been playing. Woodward was going to get a start but didn't because of the rainout. I think that's mostly irrelevant, though -- no reserve has been playing. Valentin and Diaz have 4 ABs, Franco 2, Woodward and Chavez 1. Castro hasn't seen game action yet. Woodward's spot is safe I think because of the versatility. I would be rather surprised to have Valentin, Hernandez AND Matsui all on the roster at the same time.

Edgy DC Apr 12 2006 04:15 PM

It may have driven you crazy, but if he hit .353 / .382 /.585 // .967 in September under those conditions, numberrs which, taken alone, suggest he wasn't hurt by sharing the position, and the chance of him getting into a rhythm wasn't eliminated. In sharing the position, he was able to do what he wasn't able to earlier, prove that he was a superior choice over Cairo. Unfortunately it was too late for dialing back up his playing time to matter much. If Randolph was supposed to just make a choice and stick with it under those conditions, he may well have made the wrong one. Splitting a position with someone else should be more than enough action for someone to stay fresh. There are 25 guys on a team and Bobby Valentine always found time for them all --- many of them getting part-time spots here and there until they showed themsleves worthy of larger roles --- Alfonzo, Agbayani.

Elster88 Apr 12 2006 04:18 PM

Yup, I know all that. My main problem is that if we're going to split games 4/2 or 5/2 per week, the guy getting more games should be Kaz.

Elster88 Apr 12 2006 04:19 PM

]but if he hit .353 / .382 /.585 // .967 in September under those conditions Did he really hit this? And wasn't he back to playing every day in September. Regardless, I hold to the belief that a player will perform better when played every day and not twice a week.

Edgy DC Apr 12 2006 04:49 PM

]My main problem is that if we're going to split games 4/2 or 5/2 per week, the guy getting more games should be Kaz. Agreed, and as soon as he outhits a guy with a .348 OPS, he'll elevate himself. ]Did he really hit this? And wasn't he back to playing every day in September. He did that in September, when his playing time was largely based on his struggles earlier in the year. Nonetheless, he was shortly playing five days in seven. Then he aggravated his injuries. At least, that's how I remember it. He pretty much disappears after September 16. Plus playing out the string means looking at rookie callups.

Elster88 Apr 12 2006 04:59 PM

Edgy DC wrote: ]My main problem is that if we're going to split games 4/2 or 5/2 per week, the guy getting more games should be Kaz. Agreed, and as soon as he outhits a guy with a .348 OPS, he'll elevate himself. Do you really think Willie will make the switch that quickly? I have little confidence in that. Edgy DC wrote: ]Did he really hit this? And wasn't he back to playing every day in September. He did that in September, when his playing time was largely based on his struggles earlier in the year. Nonetheless, he was shortly playing five days in seven. I might be biased against Willie or remembering wrong, but I thought he got back to playing regularly because Cairo got hurt, not because he started hitting well.

Edgy DC Apr 12 2006 05:36 PM

Kaz came off the DL on August 11th. He started the first game then sat for a while. He played sparingly until September 1, when the he became the primary guy. Did something happen? Injury? I don't recall. Something surely happened in mid-September. I think Matsui was hurt and Cairo was sore, because Hernandez was called up after being sent home. Starts: 11-Aug Matsui 12-Aug Cairo 13-Aug Cairo 14-Aug Cairo 15-Aug Off 16-Aug Cairo 17-Aug Cairo 18-Aug Cairo 19-Aug Cairo 20-Aug Cairo 21-Aug Cairo 22-Aug Matsui 23-Aug Cairo 24-Aug Matsui 25-Aug Cairo 26-Aug Cairo 27-Aug Matsui 28-Aug Cairo 29-Aug Cairo 30-Aug Cairo 31-Aug Cairo 1-Sep Matsui 2-Sep Cairo 3-Sep Cairo 4-Sep Matsui 5-Sep Matsui 6-Sep Matsui 7-Sep Matsui 8-Sep Matsui 9-Sep Cairo 10-Sep Matsui 11-Sep Matsui 12-Sep Off 13-Sep Matsui 14-Sep Matsui 15-Sep Matsui 16-Sep Matsui 17-Sep Cairo 18-Sep Hernandez 19-Sep Off 20-Sep Hernandez 21-Sep Cairo 22-Sep Cairo 23-Sep Hernandez 24-Sep Cairo 25-Sep Cairo 26-Sep Cairo 27-Sep Cairo 28-Sep Cairo 29-Sep Cairo 30-Sep Cairo

Johnny Dickshot Apr 12 2006 06:21 PM

Yes, he hurt himself again. That's the one issue Kaz has had: An inability to hold it together physically: Basically any time he has been healthy for a decent stretch, he's been capable of -- and provided -- good stuff. But at this point, his unreliablity is an even larger warning signal for WWSB, who didn't seem to warm to him last year either and we know got tired of an inability to communicate about his injuries and I suspect, doesn't trust him like he would another player. That's why Bret's assumption that he'll get his job back, no questions asked, couldn't be farther off the mark, IMO. If there were no questions to ask he wouldn't be banished to rehab starts, dismissed as real possibility by Willie for the near future at least, and left to rot last year while Cairo got starts. One other thing, semi-seriously: Reyes and Hernandez performed a pretty elaborate high-five ritual in the dugout the other day -- you may have seen it. It's just the kind of thing you never saw he & Kaz perform together. It's been my wild speculation from the start that Reyes was wounded by the whole "Kaz is the new SS" thing from 2004 and seeing as how the Mets are pretty strongly committed to Reyes, I figure that overtly or not, keeping him happy matters. Add it all up 65%-fragility 10% the perception Hernandez is a better fielder 10% the fact that Hernandez hasn't yet proven he's horrible beyond redemption 5% frequent communication issues 5% chemistry wth Reyes 5% bad PR to reintroduce boo-mongerer and this idea that Kaz is due, or will get, preferential treatment by the org is, IMO, way way off.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 12 2006 06:58 PM

As the Bartles and Jaymes ads used to end, "Thank you for your support." Eventually, of course the Mets will give Kaz the boot--When they owe him very little money and have realized what anyone with an extra brain cell realized long ago: he ain't no major league starting infielder on a contending team, and if you want to deal him throw in 90% of his salary. You remember, of course, that the word when he signed was 'durable." He's the japanese Lou Gehrig. He ain't going down with injury, you can count on Kaz all down the line, yyybbb until you puke your guts up. Him and Cameron--tough guys, never miss a game. The really scary part is that the durable stuff is one of the things about Kaz that they've been LEAST wrong about. Whoops--BLEEEAAAGGGHH! I'll clean that up in a minute--let me sit down first.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 12 2006 07:43 PM

]You remember, of course, that the word when he signed was 'durable." He's the japanese Lou Gehrig. He ain't going down with injury, you can count on Kaz all down the line, yyybbb until you puke your guts up. What was untrue about this at the time it was said?

vtmet Apr 12 2006 08:25 PM

AH has at least temporarily reached the Mendoza line, reaching .200 with his 1 for 2 so far tonight...a 4 game hit streak going...Watch out Jimmy Rollins...

Bret Sabermetric Apr 12 2006 08:26 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: ]You remember, of course, that the word when he signed was 'durable." He's the japanese Lou Gehrig. He ain't going down with injury, you can count on Kaz all down the line, yyybbb until you puke your guts up. What was untrue about this at the time it was said? I'm sure nothing was wrong. I'm sure Kaz had played with Ripken-like dedication, and played an Ozzie-like shortstop and hit the hell out of the ball. But past performance is no assurance of future performance, is it? The fact that a guy hadn't gotten injured in 10 years is either a significant and meaningful sign that he possesses strange abilities and skills at avoiding injuries that would plague another player, or else that he's just been lucky and is way overdue to get injured on a monthly basis. Which would you say applies to Kaz (at the time you're writing your answer)?

Johnny Dickshot Apr 12 2006 08:43 PM

I don;t follow where you're trying to go here. First ypou assure us that the Mets will give Kaz job back NQA, I tell you you're wrong and show you how it is, and the issue then becomes what the Mets said about injuries at the time they acquired him? He's been fragile (the bad back) and a bit unlucky (the slide) so far. It doesn't make the past untrue.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 12 2006 09:06 PM

Fragile? No, we paid 8 mil a year for 3 years because he was an iron man. I think you're wrong about him being fragile. If the Mets would have felt he would be fragile, why would they ver have paid that kind of money, slapped their best young player with a wet flounder across the mouth and sent him to switch positions without supper, given Kaz an opt-out of his MLB FA timeline, given him a NT clause like he was a proven star, etc, etc.? No, all those things were a reward for his excellence as a MLB player and the further assurance that would be 161+ games per year player. He's not fragile at all. And apart from the chops-busting, I'm not completely convinced that the Mets will give him the job back NQA--or more precisely, I'm sure that, at some point, maybe 2 and half years into a ruinous three contract, they may decide that they've humiliated themselves enough, and sit him down. That's possible, so please don't give me I told you so when they become the last people on earth to give up on Kaz Matsui. The fact is they should have done so at least a year ago is where I'm really going with all this. As soon as they saw him playing shortstop like a cat trying to fuck a watermelon, they should have used their brains and "said, We goofed--let's try to salvage something from this horrible mistake--turn him into a UT player? Swap him out for a massive loss? Bribe him to play elsewhere?" But they stuck with him faithfully NQA the last two years, and they're still waiting for him to show his stuff. At least you're still holding out unreasonable hopes that Kaz will come back and make and other Kaz-haters eat crow. Correct? That would (admit it) be very sweet for you. Well, the Mets are thinking just like you.

Elster88 Apr 12 2006 09:19 PM

]But they stuck with him faithfully NQA the last two years Is this why you Cairo got so much time last year? You forget that another reason he got so much time the past two years was the lack of alternatives. Actually "ignore" is a better fit there than "forget".

Bret Sabermetric Apr 12 2006 09:29 PM

Elster88 wrote: ]But they stuck with him faithfully NQA the last two years Is this why you Cairo got so much time last year? You forget that another reason he got so much time the past two years was the lack of alternatives. Actually "ignore" is a better fit there than "forget". Youo keep ignoring the fact that Cairo played when Kaz got hurt, as impossible as that was to foretell. They did not choose to sit the 8 mil dollar man down. As long as he could play, he played. They aren;t wasting any money, no siree. What's important, baseball judgment or financial judgment? Who starts and who sits around here? That's easy--what does their contracts say? It's a miracle that David Wright has a job and isnt sitting behind Joe McEwing or some other vet.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 12 2006 09:41 PM

]Youo keep ignoring the fact that Cairo played when Kaz got hurt, as impossible as that was to foretell. They did not choose to sit the 8 mil dollar man down. As long as he could play, he played. That's simply not true, and doesn;t get any truer when repeated. Matsui had to "play his way back into the mix" twice last year while Cairo stunk up the joint. Right this second he's eligible to return, and won;t for weeks. You really should have been paying attention.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 13 2006 06:12 AM

For a guy who lost his job and got demoted to ride pine and who spent major time on the DL last year, Kaz seems to have played an awful lot. I did miss WIllie's announcement that Kaz had played himself out of a starting job and was relegated to the bench for the rest of his contract. That would have been some comfort to me, if were paying closer attention.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 13 2006 07:14 AM

All I'm saying is that things did not go as you said they did last year, and likely won't again this year. Marty Noble today rather boldly notes: ]Last season, Randolph played the Miguel Cairo rather than Kaz Matsui, who is far more mobile, at second base, particularly when Martinez pitched, making sure that potential double plays were turned. Matsui won't be unseating Hernandez if and when he returns from the disabled list.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 13 2006 07:41 AM

"Matsui won't be unseating Hernandez if and when he returns from the disabled list" A pretty bold prediction. So if Hernandez is going to hit .126, Willie's going to ride him into the grave, and leave the Mets' 8 million dollar mistake on the bench? I'd like to see that.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 13 2006 08:21 AM

This is futile. You pick one argument "Matsui plays because he's higher paid" and when that's proven wrong it's onto another argument: "The Mets are too stupid to play Matsui" or "The Mets lied when they said Matsui hadn't missed in time in japan" or whatever. It doesn;t seem like you have anything to discuss. You just wanna argue.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 13 2006 08:33 AM

Well, there's a lot to complain about here, Johnny. let me try to simplify the argument: the Mets have invested far too much in propping up the image of Matsui as a MLB player. They probably on some level realized what I realized long ago: this guy's talent makes him a bench player, or part-time player, on a mediocre ballclub, and make him a minor league player on a contending club. IOW, they made a horrible mistake in signing him and if they want to contend, they need to get a real second baseman. Maybe they could contend by making him a 8 million dollar UT infielder, but he might be too unhappy with that to make it worthwhile. So they give him every chance in the universe to claim a starting job while they try to contend. It's bad enough they took two years to figure this out, if figure it they did. Remember how he was totally fucking up his audition this ST in a supposedly "open competition" and he still had the edge on the job according to Willie's public statements? Does that tell you nothing? The fact that he again hurt himself is what allowed Hernandez to claim the job. Personally, I'm rooting for Hernandez to start hitting and make plausible the claim that he's earned the job, but if doesn't then Kaz has (once again) the arguable claim that he's the best 2b option the Mets have, and they're so committed to CYA that they'll go along with it, at least until their financial investment is almost completely gone. I do like arguing.

Elster88 Apr 13 2006 08:57 AM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: ="Elster88"] ]But they stuck with him faithfully NQA the last two years Is this why you Cairo got so much time last year? You forget that another reason he got so much time the past two years was the lack of alternatives. Actually "ignore" is a better fit there than "forget". Youo keep ignoring the fact that Cairo played when Kaz got hurt, as impossible as that was to foretell. They did not choose to sit the 8 mil dollar man down. As long as he could play, he played. They aren;t wasting any money, no siree. What's important, baseball judgment or financial judgment? Who starts and who sits around here? That's easy--what does their contracts say? Yeah, Kaz did get as much time or more. But he's a better player than Cairo. Who did you want to play in Kaz's stead? Anderson Hernandez? We've seen how that worked out.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 13 2006 09:31 AM

I wanted (and want) them to suck it up and get a real secondbaseman. I want them to stop investing another minute in Kaz's non-existent future, and stop investing another second explaining how he's starting to look like he's turning it around, and make a priority of getting a second baseman. How, you ask? Maybe by trading Jay Seo or Kris Benson for one instead of dumping them for middle relief. Maybe by trading Cliff Floyd for Soriano and promoting Milledge or by playing Nady and Diaz fulltime. Maybe by seeing how Keppinger on O and Hernandez on D will do as a secondbase combo at the start of '05. Maybe by shelling out big bucks for Grudzy or whoever was available as a FA. What I don't want them to do is whine, as they've been whining for two years "But we're stuck with Kaz. Some big bad meanie made us sign him to a LT Big bucks deal with a NT clauser, so we're have to keep playing this lousy suck ass non-MLB yoyo until his contract runs out."

Elster88 Apr 13 2006 09:34 AM

I agree with all that. Fortunately, thus far this year the lack of a second baseman doesn't seem to be hurting the team.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 13 2006 10:09 AM

Don't agree with either of you. Matsui's problem isn't that he sucks, necessarily, but that he's been unreliable, health wise. And Anderson Hernandez' poor hitting is hurting this team... fortunately it hasn't shown up in the results yet.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 13 2006 10:15 AM

At his healthiest, he's never been close to adequate defensively at ss or 2b. And his batting (low OBP, a little bit of occasional pop) doesn't start to bring him up to adequate. Throw in the unreliable health, and he's about 7.5 mil overpriced at best on an 8 mil contract If the Mets were to release him, how much would you pay for his contract the rest of '06? I wonder if you could name me a figure that would be anywhere near what I think he get.

Elster88 Apr 13 2006 10:20 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: Matsui's problem isn't that he sucks, necessarily, but that he's been unreliable, health wise. I've been saying this all along. What I meant above is that I agree that I'd have liked them to trade Seo and Benson for other players than what they got. Though I'm liking the Seo trade more and more every day. Johnny Dickshot wrote: And Anderson Hernandez' poor hitting is hurting this team... fortunately it hasn't shown up in the results yet. That's what I meant.

Edgy DC Apr 13 2006 10:43 AM

]It's just the kind of thing you never saw he & Kaz perform together. Well, there's this: (I hope that's not going to come out as a disgusting picture.) I think Reyes is an athletic talented baseball players and does stuff like that because he enjoys being around other athletic talented baseball players, who challenge him in his game. I think if we haven't seen a lot of that goofy stuff involving him and Matusi, it's (a, 40%) becasue Reyes and Matsui haven't gotten enough time together, (b, 30%) because Matsui's injuries have isolated him from his teammates even more than his linguistic and cultural differences already had, and (c, 30%) because Reyes now sees Hernandez as a good partner in one-upmanship. but has to some degree or another moved on from viewing Matusi as a guy with enough ability on defense to trade plays with him*, just as we have moved on from Jose Valentin as a suject of this thread. _______________ *c, partially being a product of a and b, partially just being the facts.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 13 2006 10:47 AM

Edgy DC wrote: Matusi Or any Matusi tribesman, really

Yancy Street Gang Apr 13 2006 10:50 AM

Isn't that the dance that's made just for romance?

seawolf17 Apr 13 2006 10:51 AM

We heard you the first two times, Yance.

Yancy Street Gang Apr 13 2006 10:58 AM

Weird. I guess that comment was so dumb it had to be repeated twice.

abogdan Apr 13 2006 12:19 PM

Just to get this Valentin thread back on track, Anderson Hernandez is on the bench today getting a day off against Livan. Righthanded hitting Chris Woodward is in the lineup instead of the lefty Valentin.

Yancy Street Gang Apr 14 2006 09:31 AM

I don't remember where it was questioned, but Matsui did most of his 8th place hitting last year in May.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 14 2006 09:58 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 14 2006 10:02 AM

I never noticed that cool "pos #" thing before, and I'm a real UMDB junkie. Is it new? Useful info in the "WWSB isn't learning" argument. If WWSB had batted him 8th in September, then you might be able to argue that he finally figured out that he wasn't cutting it at the top of the lineup. Brought to you by "CRAP FROM THE PAST." OE: more typos.

Yancy Street Gang Apr 14 2006 10:00 AM

Yes, brand new.