Master Index of Archived Threads


Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

41Forever Jan 05 2020 03:55 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 06 2020 12:09 PM

I've not been paying attention to the Hall of Fame voting as obsessively due to the Jeter-centric coverage and some of the early guys who announced they were voting for Jeter and no one else. But I checked ballot tracker today with somewhat surprising results. With about a third of the ballots posted, Capt. Overrated is still at 100 percent. But Larry Walker is at 84.6 percent and Curt Schilling at 80 percent. By no means certain, but that's a decent cushion. Bonds is at 75.4 percent and Clemens at 74.6 They're not getting in. It's then a huge drop off to Scott Rolen at 48 percent. Newsday's Marcus and Anthony Rieber have the only Jeter-only ballots posted. Paul Daugherty of the Cincy Enquirer voted only for Jeter and Schilling. Jimmy Golen, whom I believe is a Boston AP writer, voted for Jeter and Walker. Christian Red of the News voted for Jeter and Omar Vizquel. There are 42 voters with the maximum 10.

seawolf17 Jan 06 2020 08:41 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Cap'n Intangibles-only voters should have their privileges revoked. That's a load of crap. He'll get in, and he should get in, but come on.

bmfc1 Jan 06 2020 09:25 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

I would vote for one player and that player would be feted alone: Larry Walker. Schilling can go F himself despite his greatness. Bonds, Sosa and Clemens took themselves out of the running. Jeter can wait a year like most people. He doesn't deserve to be first ballot, only entry.

Ceetar Jan 06 2020 10:16 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Jeter is in the same ilk as Bonds/Sosa/Clemens *shrug* but there's no such thing as 'first ballot' that's not a thing. you're in or you're out.

Edgy MD Jan 06 2020 10:23 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Should I be understanding that Larry Walker is at 84.6% and that 8.46% is a typo?

41Forever Jan 06 2020 12:12 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Edgy MD wrote: Should I be understanding that Larry Walker is at 84.6% and that 8.46% is a typo? Good catch! Apologies to Mr. Walker. I do wonder if the having only a third of the ballots publicly posted is a little low. Maybe some of these guys want to avoid the Twitter bashing that follows.

G-Fafif Jan 06 2020 01:01 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

The public ballots tend to overstate the impact of those voters who have causes. The silent majority (or perhaps plurality) who don't give a damn about Walker or can't deal with Bonds/Clemens inevitably brings the eye-popping percentages back toward earth, save for those of the first-time sure-thing types, of which Jeter is sadly among.

Vic Sage Jan 07 2020 02:23 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

my ballot: Bonds Clemens Walker Jeter borderline: Ramirez Schilling Wagner Helton Kent Sosa Sheffield Their gloves keep them on the ballot: Rolen Jones Vizquel 1 more year, then goodbye: Pettite Giambi the rest are 1 and done: Bobby Abreu Paul Konerko Alfonso Soriano Raul Ibanez Adam Dunn Rafael Furcal Brian Roberts Eric Chavez Carlos Pena Chone Figgins Brad Penny Cliff Lee Josh Beckett Heath Bell Jose Valverde J.J. Putz

nymr83 Jan 07 2020 08:00 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

welcome to the hall Curt Schilling Roger Clemens Barry Bonds Larry Walker Sammy Sosa Omar Vizquel Scott Rolen better luck next year Derek Jeter (new) - the defense is so bad i just want him to wait a year so yankee fans can suffer. Jason Giambi (new) - i'm not ready to say "no" Bobby Abreu (new) - just a "compiler?" Jeff Kent Todd Helton Gary Sheffield Andruw Jones Manny Ramirez Billy Wagner get off the ballot! everyone else Andy Pettite - the only returning candidate that i'm ready to give an immediate big fat "no" to.

MFS62 Jan 08 2020 06:42 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=bmfc1 post_id=29320 time=1578327929 user_id=73] I would vote for one player and that player would be feted alone: Larry Walker. Schilling can go F himself despite his greatness. Bonds, Sosa and Clemens took themselves out of the running. Jeter can wait a year like most people. He doesn't deserve to be first ballot, only entry.

I can go along with that.

And I'd vote for Vizquel to remind everyone that shortstop is a defensive position. (Take THAT Jeter!)



Later

seawolf17 Jan 08 2020 10:30 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Walker Bonds Clemens Cap'n Intangibles Ramirez Wagner Helton Kent Sosa Sheffield There is nobody good coming up next year, so some of these guys might get a little more support. I would *love* to see a "tainted" class of Bonds/Clemens/CI/Manny/Sosa. That would be amazing to lump Jeets in that group. But Walker should get in too.

Ceetar Jan 08 2020 12:18 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Helton, Ramirez, Sosa, Wagner, Walker, Bonds, Sosa if you were asking me. but of course, some of those would already be in if you were asking for my hall and not the BBWAA's.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 08 2020 12:56 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Larry Walker away from Coors Field ... .282/.372/.500 Larry Walker at the ridiculous pre-humidor Coors Field LIFETIME... .381/.462/.710

Ceetar Jan 08 2020 12:57 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

you're penalized away from Coors after you play there.

41Forever Jan 08 2020 12:58 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Walker Schilling Jeter (but no Re2pect) Helton Wagner Vizquel Rolen

batmagadanleadoff Jan 08 2020 12:59 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=29450 time=1578513369 user_id=68] Larry Walker away from Coors Field ... .282/.372/.500 Larry Walker at the ridiculous pre-humidor Coors Field LIFETIME... .381/.462/.710

1998 NL Batting Leaders



1 Larry Walker (Coors Field) .363

2 John Olerud (Shea Stadium) .354

3 Dante Bichette (Coors Field) .331

.

.

.

10 Vinny Castilla (Coors Field) .319

batmagadanleadoff Jan 08 2020 01:00 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=Ceetar post_id=29451 time=1578513461 user_id=102] you're penalized away from Coors after you play there.

I dunno what you mean.

Ceetar Jan 08 2020 01:04 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=29454 time=1578513615 user_id=68] =Ceetar post_id=29451 time=1578513461 user_id=102] you're penalized away from Coors after you play there.

I dunno what you mean.


It's literally harder to hit a curveball in any other stadium after you've played a series at Coors Field than it is if you're last series was in any other stadium.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 08 2020 01:12 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Larry Walker away from Coors Field LIFETIME ... .282/.372/.500 Jim Edmonds LIFETIME .284/.376/.527 Moises Alou LIFETIME .303/.369/.516 Rusty Staub LIFETIME ... .279/.362/.431 Joe Torre LIFETIME ... .297/.365/.452 Frank Howard LIFETIME ... .273/.352/.499 John Olerud LIFETIME ... .296/.398/.465 Keith Hernandez LIFETIME ... .296/.384/.436

batmagadanleadoff Jan 08 2020 01:15 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=Ceetar post_id=29455 time=1578513894 user_id=102] =batmagadanleadoff post_id=29454 time=1578513615 user_id=68] =Ceetar post_id=29451 time=1578513461 user_id=102] you're penalized away from Coors after you play there.

I dunno what you mean.


It's literally harder to hit a curveball in any other stadium after you've played a series at Coors Field than it is if you're last series was in any other stadium.


Perhaps. But players adjust after a very short while. On the other hand, playing half your games in the pre-humidor pinball machine that was Coors Field ...



Larry Walker averaged an almost .400 BA for his career at Coors.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 08 2020 01:22 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=29457 time=1578514347 user_id=68] Larry Walker away from Coors Field LIFETIME ... .282/.372/.500 Jim Edmonds LIFETIME .284/.376/.527 Moises Alou LIFETIME .303/.369/.516 Rusty Staub LIFETIME ... .279/.362/.431 Joe Torre LIFETIME ... .297/.365/.452 Frank Howard LIFETIME ... .273/.352/.499 John Olerud LIFETIME ... .296/.398/.465 Keith Hernandez LIFETIME ... .296/.384/.436

Shawn Green ... .283/.355/.494

Reggie Smith ... .287/.366/.489

Derrek Lee ... .281/.365/.495

seawolf17 Jan 08 2020 01:27 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=29457 time=1578514347 user_id=68] Larry Walker away from Coors Field LIFETIME ... .282/.372/.500 Jim Edmonds LIFETIME .284/.376/.527 Moises Alou LIFETIME .303/.369/.516 Rusty Staub LIFETIME ... .279/.362/.431 Joe Torre LIFETIME ... .297/.365/.452 Frank Howard LIFETIME ... .273/.352/.499 John Olerud LIFETIME ... .296/.398/.465 Keith Hernandez LIFETIME ... .296/.384/.436

Great! Put 'em all in the Hall. (Well, maybe not Edmonds or Alou.)

Ceetar Jan 08 2020 01:55 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=29459 time=1578514550 user_id=68] =Ceetar post_id=29455 time=1578513894 user_id=102] It's literally harder to hit a curveball in any other stadium after you've played a series at Coors Field than it is if you're last series was in any other stadium.

Perhaps. But players adjust after a very short while. On the other hand, playing half your games in the pre-humidor pinball machine that was Coors Field ...



Larry Walker averaged an almost .400 BA for his career at Coors.




yes but then he returned to Coors Field after a short while for another home series.



and things like WAR and OPS+ and wRC+ adjust for park, and there's the implication that they're not quite adjusting enough for this wrinkle of having your timing adjusting to less-breaking balls and then getting killer ones.



he's got more WAR, both career and peak, than an average BBWAA Hall right fielder, as well as more JAWs.

nymr83 Jan 08 2020 02:23 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=seawolf17 post_id=29461 time=1578515238 user_id=91] =batmagadanleadoff post_id=29457 time=1578514347 user_id=68] Larry Walker away from Coors Field LIFETIME ... .282/.372/.500 Jim Edmonds LIFETIME .284/.376/.527 Moises Alou LIFETIME .303/.369/.516 Rusty Staub LIFETIME ... .279/.362/.431 Joe Torre LIFETIME ... .297/.365/.452 Frank Howard LIFETIME ... .273/.352/.499 John Olerud LIFETIME ... .296/.398/.465 Keith Hernandez LIFETIME ... .296/.384/.436

Great! Put 'em all in the Hall. (Well, maybe not Edmonds or Alou.)




Jim Edmonds got the short stick from the voters. very underrated and played good defense in CF, and here are his numbers stacking up well against firstbasemen!

Chad ochoseis Jan 08 2020 04:42 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=29457 time=1578514347 user_id=68] Larry Walker away from Coors Field LIFETIME ... .282/.372/.500 Jim Edmonds LIFETIME .284/.376/.527 Moises Alou LIFETIME .303/.369/.516 Rusty Staub LIFETIME ... .279/.362/.431 Joe Torre LIFETIME ... .297/.365/.452 Frank Howard LIFETIME ... .273/.352/.499 John Olerud LIFETIME ... .296/.398/.465 Keith Hernandez LIFETIME ... .296/.384/.436

Sure, Walker's stats are Coors inflated, but when you pull out Coors, you're pulling out his home stats from age 28-36. Those are likely to be the most productive ABs of any slugger's career, Coors or no Coors. A fair comparison would have to remove the age 28-36 home stats for the other players, too.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 08 2020 07:32 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

I doubt it would make a meaningful difference. Nobody else played in a home stadium that inflated batting averages by 50, 60, 70 or 80 points.

41Forever Jan 08 2020 07:46 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Chad ochoseis wrote: =batmagadanleadoff post_id=29457 time=1578514347 user_id=68] Larry Walker away from Coors Field LIFETIME ... .282/.372/.500 Jim Edmonds LIFETIME .284/.376/.527 Moises Alou LIFETIME .303/.369/.516 Rusty Staub LIFETIME ... .279/.362/.431 Joe Torre LIFETIME ... .297/.365/.452 Frank Howard LIFETIME ... .273/.352/.499 John Olerud LIFETIME ... .296/.398/.465 Keith Hernandez LIFETIME ... .296/.384/.436 Sure, Walker's stats are Coors inflated, but when you pull out Coors, you're pulling out his home stats from age 28-36. Those are likely to be the most productive ABs of any slugger's career, Coors or no Coors. A fair comparison would have to remove the age 28-36 home stats for the other players, too.

I can understand holding a player's PED use against him. But I don't know if it's fair to penalize a player for the park he played in.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 08 2020 08:07 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Chad ochoseis wrote: Larry Walker away from Coors Field LIFETIME ... .282/.372/.500 Jim Edmonds LIFETIME .284/.376/.527 Moises Alou LIFETIME .303/.369/.516 Rusty Staub LIFETIME ... .279/.362/.431 Joe Torre LIFETIME ... .297/.365/.452 Frank Howard LIFETIME ... .273/.352/.499 John Olerud LIFETIME ... .296/.398/.465 Keith Hernandez LIFETIME ... .296/.384/.436 Sure, Walker's stats are Coors inflated, but when you pull out Coors, you're pulling out his home stats from age 28-36. Those are likely to be the most productive ABs of any slugger's career, Coors or no Coors. A fair comparison would have to remove the age 28-36 home stats for the other players, too. I can understand holding a player's PED use against him. But I don't know if it's fair to penalize a player for the park he played in. That's ridiculous. And no one's "penalizing" anybody in the first place. They're simply making sound numerical adjustments on the indisputable basis that a run generated In Coors Field isn't worth nearly as much as a run generated in any other baseball stadium. Just like someone today making $50K a year doesn't have anything near the buying power Charlie Chaplin had in 1913 on his $10K a year. It's one thing if you think Walker has a HOF case even adjusting for Coors, but to ignore Coors park factors is something else. That would be PENALIZING every non Coors player in a statistical comparison with Walker.

bmfc1 Jan 10 2020 11:58 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

The known votes so far have Jeter in and Walker just missing. https://twitter.com/Porlos411/status/1215506401000329217

seawolf17 Jan 10 2020 01:02 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Come on, voters who don't believe in First Year Guys. We just need one.

nymr83 Jan 10 2020 09:06 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=seawolf17 post_id=29538 time=1578686564 user_id=91] Come on, voters who don't believe in First Year Guys. We just need one.

it would be nice, but a bigger victory would be to see Pettite drop off the ballot so that we need not listen to Yankees fans touting him once Jeter gets in

MFS62 Jan 11 2020 03:22 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=nymr83 post_id=29564 time=1578715589 user_id=54] =seawolf17 post_id=29538 time=1578686564 user_id=91] Come on, voters who don't believe in First Year Guys. We just need one.

it would be nice, but a bigger victory would be to see Pettite drop off the ballot so that we need not listen to Yankees fans touting him once Jeter gets in


No it wouldn't. I'd rather hear the Jeter fans whine .... forever.

Later

Edgy MD Jan 11 2020 04:00 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

How about Mark McGwire falling off the ballot before the shift in attitudes about users while Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens may have stuck around for just long enough?

41Forever Jan 12 2020 08:52 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

This from Ken Davidoff: Welcome to baseball's beautifully boring January. Oh, sure, the anvil about to fall on the Astros will entertain us for a couple of days, and the perennially unheralded Derek Jeter will finally get his due with his unanimous (just my hunch) Hall of Fame election Jan. 21. Derek Jeter is perennially unheralded? Finally getting his due? I'm hoping he's being sarcastic and it just doesn't translate well. Because I can't think of a more over-praised New York baseball player than Derek Jeter. And on another topic, he states: The expansion of the designated hitter to the National League would help pitchers stay healthy in addition to allowing more big names to play longer. The DH helps pitchers stay healthy? Have we had an incident of a pitcher injured while batting or running the bases -- ever?

batmagadanleadoff Jan 12 2020 09:24 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Chad ochoseis wrote: =batmagadanleadoff post_id=29457 time=1578514347 user_id=68] Larry Walker away from Coors Field LIFETIME ... .282/.372/.500 Jim Edmonds LIFETIME .284/.376/.527 Moises Alou LIFETIME .303/.369/.516 Rusty Staub LIFETIME ... .279/.362/.431 Joe Torre LIFETIME ... .297/.365/.452 Frank Howard LIFETIME ... .273/.352/.499 John Olerud LIFETIME ... .296/.398/.465 Keith Hernandez LIFETIME ... .296/.384/.436 Sure, Walker's stats are Coors inflated, but when you pull out Coors, you're pulling out his home stats from age 28-36. Those are likely to be the most productive ABs of any slugger's career, Coors or no Coors. A fair comparison would have to remove the age 28-36 home stats for the other players, too.

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=29460 time=1578514962 user_id=68]


Shawn Green ... .283/.355/.494

Reggie Smith ... .287/.366/.489

Derrek Lee ... .281/.365/.495



=batmagadanleadoff post_id=29472 time=1578537161 user_id=68]
I doubt it would make a meaningful difference. Nobody else played in a home stadium that inflated batting averages by 50, 60, 70 or 80 points.


Something else ... I only removed Walker's Coors stats, which were all pre-humidor. Walker's road stats from what you say were his prime years remain. Pre-humidor Coors was the most hitter friendly stadium in baseball history -- by such an enormously wide margin, that its effects were cartoonish.

MFS62 Jan 12 2020 09:28 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Because I can't think of a more over-praised New York baseball player than Derek Jeter. I remember when there would be a countless baseball magazine cover articles each year proclaiming Bobby Richardson "The most underrated player in baseball". In my circle of friends, he was "the most overrated underrated player in baseball". Later

HahnSolo Jan 12 2020 10:17 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Wang and Tanaka both got hurt on the basepaths. But they were Yankees, so I laughed.

G-Fafif Jan 12 2020 11:01 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=41Forever post_id=29584 time=1578844366 user_id=69] This from Ken Davidoff: Derek Jeter is perennially unheralded? Finally getting his due? I'm hoping he's being sarcastic and it just doesn't translate well. Because I can't think of a more over-praised New York baseball player than Derek Jeter.

This passes for hilarious among The Brethren.



Davidoff's the guy who nightly works his preseason prediction into a tweet and holds for laughter (“The Mets have now found 83-79 ways to lose,” et al.)

Frayed Knot Jan 12 2020 12:05 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=HahnSolo post_id=29588 time=1578849458 user_id=63] Wang and Tanaka both got hurt on the basepaths. But they were Yankees, so I laughed.

When Wang got hurt while running in an IL game (stepping on home plate IIRC) Hank Steiny went ballistic over the NL's non-use of the DH

I think he stopped short of comparing it to the lack of flush toilets and of threatening to sue everyone involved, but it was a while ago so maybe he actually did.

bmfc1 Jan 17 2020 03:35 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

The latest on the HoF voting. It's Jeter AND Walker: https://twitter.com/sarsdell/status/1218295685386309635/photo/1

Edgy MD Jan 18 2020 02:57 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Back in '15 Max Scherzer strained his thumb batting while Adam Wainwright messed up his Achilles tendon running the bases. That said, I think many such "we need to reduce ..." initiatives in baseball history have been shortsighted, and fall subject to The Law of Unintended Consequences.

nymr83 Jan 19 2020 09:10 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=nymr83 post_id=29420 time=1578452424 user_id=54] welcome to the hall Curt Schilling Roger Clemens Barry Bonds Larry Walker Sammy Sosa Omar Vizquel Scott Rolen Billy Wagner

Stark sold me on Wagner. lowest WHIP, lowest H/9, highest K/9 of anyone with 900+ innings post 1900. lowest ERA of any lefty in that same group.

MFS62 Jan 20 2020 07:09 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Hold your nose and keep a barf bag handy- an article that says Jeter may be underrated!! https://www.mlb.com/news/derek-jeter-an-all-time-great-hitting-shortstop?partnerId=zh-20200120-156907-47943&query_id=1026&bt_ee=iZZD5G5ucz6g4Wl6ZSMjt7hEpGNyEwkB0b5eXU0qlGsLXBTPK8925DTijoXKZmsl&bt_ts=1579523828369 SPOILER ALERT: the part where he says "If you take defense out of it.." is like saying, "Other than the result General Custer, how did the battle go?" Later

nymr83 Jan 20 2020 08:32 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Hold your nose and keep a barf bag handy- an article that says Jeter may be underrated!! https://www.mlb.com/news/derek-jeter-an-all-time-great-hitting-shortstop?partnerId=zh-20200120-156907-47943&query_id=1026&bt_ee=iZZD5G5ucz6g4Wl6ZSMjt7hEpGNyEwkB0b5eXU0qlGsLXBTPK8925DTijoXKZmsl&bt_ts=1579523828369 SPOILER ALERT: the part where he says "If you take defense out of it.." is like saying, "Other than the result General Custer, how did the battle go?" Later Can we "take offense out of it"? Rey Ordonez, welcome to Cooperstown!

G-Fafif Jan 21 2020 05:24 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Hoping someone doesn't vote for Jeter “because selecting anybody else unanimously would be an insult to the legacy of Mariano Rivera.”

MFS62 Jan 21 2020 07:20 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Announcement 3 PM today. Later

Ceetar Jan 21 2020 07:22 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

the BBWAA hall is still a thing? pass.

bmfc1 Jan 21 2020 11:46 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

https://twitter.com/Cdnmooselips33/status/1219691612047052800

41Forever Jan 21 2020 11:48 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Two more writers posted Jeter-and-done ballots, according to Ballot Tracker. One is a guy from a Pittsburgh radio station. The other surprised me. Dan Shaughnessy from Boston. And last year he only voted for Rivera.

kcmets Jan 21 2020 12:50 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Anyone here get an invite to Steve J Roger's Jeter HOF Announcement Shindig? Yeah, me neither...

Willets Point Jan 21 2020 12:54 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=41Forever post_id=30241 time=1579632500 user_id=69] The other surprised me. Dan Shaughnessy from Boston. And last year he only voted for Rivera.

Not a surprise. His entire shtick is to bitch about Boston teams and complain about how inferior they are to New York teams.

41Forever Jan 21 2020 01:08 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

This is tough to watch so far. Costas dropped the phrase "intangibles" and is telling us to ignore WAR because doesn't tell the whole story, and another -- might have been Harold Reynolds -- saying something like, "It's all about the pinstripes."

stevejrogers Jan 21 2020 01:18 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Anyone here get an invite to Steve J Roger's Jeter HOF Announcement Shindig? Yeah, me neither... https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/d3/0d/e4d30dd7b0cc1c94c37c52d6b5c59356.gif>

41Forever Jan 21 2020 01:33 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

The incredible stalling here makes me think it's just Jeter.

seawolf17 Jan 21 2020 01:36 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

I thought the actual announcement doesn't come until 6pm ET?

stevejrogers Jan 21 2020 01:37 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=41Forever post_id=30252 time=1579638804 user_id=69] The incredible stalling here makes me think it's just Jeter.

It's been that way for a while now, where the announcement has a few hour long pre-show.

kcmets Jan 21 2020 04:04 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Four hours and they're still ball washing. Is this CNN?

bmfc1 Jan 21 2020 04:18 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Congratulations to Larry Walker on his election to the Hall of Fame!

A Boy Named Seo Jan 21 2020 04:24 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Some American hero did not vote for Jeets (99.7). Show yourself and collect thy prize!

G-Fafif Jan 21 2020 04:47 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Bless you, voter who DGAF.

41Forever Jan 21 2020 04:47 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

This is going to get ugly! You know people are going to demand to know who did it.

smg58 Jan 21 2020 05:23 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

To be fair, I would have voted for Jeter. But the litany of Yankee-fan friends asking "Who was the asshole?" on Facebook is highly entertaining.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 21 2020 05:59 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

To be fair, I would have voted for Jeter. But the litany of Yankee-fan friends asking "Who was the asshole?" .... It's the same person who didn't vote for Babe Ruth and Willie Mays and Hank Aaron and Tom Seaver. What? Derek Jeter is the G.O.A.T.?

41Forever Jan 21 2020 06:03 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

This is kind of funny. Instead of soft rain falling about intangibles there are storms of anger about the one voter. The demand for perfection actually set Jeter up for failure. Instead of celebrating the 99.7 percent, they're focused on the one he was denied.

Frayed Knot Jan 21 2020 06:17 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

As much fun as MFY-angst can be, the difference between 99.7% and 100% is negligible and I have no problem that the long-standing taboo against unanimous selections was finally broken, should have happened decades ago. The fact that 20-some voters failed to cast a ballot for Mays doesn't make Jeter the better player, it only means that today's panel has wiser voters. My two major concerns with this vote were those writers willfully admitting to trying to create a Jeter-and-only-Jeter class, as if sharing the stage with someone else would somehow be a stain on HIS day. Voters who took votes away from other deserving candidates, including from ones they had voted for in the past, just so as to create this (attempted) artificial and contrived 'honor' deserve to be horse-whipped for using that logic. The other is, had Jeets achieved a perfect score, that there would be a move to return back to the days of 'no first-timers' so that the 100% 'honor' forever remain the property of Rivera and Jeter. Much of the 'no first-timers' garbage existed from those DiMaggio worshipers who reasoned that if Joe D didn't go in on his first ballot (there were several reasons for this as the process was different back then) then no one else should either. Having finally busted that stupid logic, it would be far worse to start an even dumber standard.

MFS62 Jan 21 2020 06:48 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Like many ground balls, the opportunity for unanimous election passed Jeter by. Later

Vic Sage Jan 22 2020 08:25 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

the internet witch hunt for the PWDVFJ (person who didn't vote for Jeter) is like that Netflix show, "dont' fuck with cats". God help the reporter who doesn't bow down at the pinstripe altar. The MFY fan angst over this is the only thing making it tolerable. Also, congrats to Larry Walker, Ted Simmons and Marvin Miller. I thought their inductions were all long overdue.

seawolf17 Jan 22 2020 08:28 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

I love that the one vote has sent MFY fans into apoplexy, because that tells me a lot more about those fans than it does about the Hall, CI, or the voting process.

stevejrogers Jan 22 2020 08:55 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=seawolf17 post_id=30287 time=1579706896 user_id=91] I love that the one vote has sent MFY fans into apoplexy, because that tells me a lot more about those fans than it does about the Hall, CI, or the voting process.

There is a fake trolling ballot pic floating around from someone at Barstool with Jose Valverde checked off and Jeter unchecked. Valverde didn't receive a single counted vote (and JJ Putz did!?)!



When I pointed that out to someone readying their torch on Facebook, the guy said that the voter probably didn't turn the ballot in on time as over 400 were sent out, while 397 were counted. *rolls eyes*

Fman99 Jan 22 2020 09:56 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

I totally didn't vote for Jeter. He can eat a bag of stewed assholes.

Willets Point Jan 22 2020 10:44 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Coming this summer to Cooperstown, NY: WOODSTOCK FOR DOUCHEBAGS!!!

Ceetar Jan 22 2020 11:18 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=seawolf17 post_id=30287 time=1579706896 user_id=91] I love that the one vote has sent MFY fans into apoplexy, because that tells me a lot more about those fans than it does about the Hall, CI, or the voting process.

it's weird how many of those fans are media members though.

G-Fafif Jan 22 2020 01:14 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Larry Walker will go in as a Rockie. Derek Jeter will go in as an irritant.

stevejrogers Jan 22 2020 02:16 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=G-Fafif post_id=30342 time=1579724040 user_id=55] Larry Walker will go in as a Rockie.

So no multiple Cardinals this year ;)



Ahead of the announcement the Rockies announced that Walker's #33 would be retired this summer. Presumably expecting him to fall short, and be a bit of a plea for the next Today's Game Committee electors to “get it right!”



Todd Helton's #17 is the only other Rockie retired number, mothballed after his retirement a few years ago.

Ceetar Jan 22 2020 02:19 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Helton's a hall of famer too, as far as I'm concerned.

Lefty Specialist Jan 22 2020 02:28 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=seawolf17 post_id=30287 time=1579706896 user_id=91] I love that the one vote has sent MFY fans into apoplexy, because that tells me a lot more about those fans than it does about the Hall, CI, or the voting process.

Yes, and I love it. Jeter was getting in no matter what. Denying him perfection is awesome.

nymr83 Jan 22 2020 04:29 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=MFS62 post_id=30275 time=1579657681 user_id=60] Like many ground balls, the opportunity for unanimous election passed Jeter by. Later

It just never gets old :)

Edgy MD Jan 31 2020 07:31 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/screen-shot-2020-01-31-at-9.30.25-am.png>

41Forever Jan 31 2020 08:25 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Anthony Rieber is one of the outraged over who the non-voter was. I love the "in light of the Jeter situation." https://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/baseball-hall-of-fame-anonymous-voting-derek-jeter-1.40905680 Hall of Fame chairman of the board Jane Forbes Clark was then asked if the Hall was comfortable with that in light of the Jeter situation. “Yes, we are,” she said. Earlier, Jeter had been asked what he “would like to ask or say to the one writer who didn't vote for you.” There was laughter in the room. But not from Jeter. “See, that's where our minds are a little bit different,” Jeter said. “I focus on the ones who did.” Now keep in mind, it's not like Jeter was one vote shy of being elected. He's obviously in. It's not like the Hall plaques denote the voting percentage. Ralph Kiner, who I believe was rounded up to 75 percent, has the same kind of plaque as the first-ballot guys, and the Veteran's Committee picks are the same as the BBWAA-selected guys. So as long as he is in, why is there this need for vote-shaming the person? Even more outrageous, Rieber one of the guys who voted ONLY for Jeter because he thought Jeter should stand alone, even though he has voted in the past for other players on the ballot. That's a stunt ballot. That's a lame "Look at me" kind of thing. Derek Jeter was a singular player and person in baseball history. He deserves to stand alone at the podium as the entire Hall of Fame Class of 2020 on July 26 in Cooperstown. If you ask me, Reiber should be more ashamed of his ballot than the person who didn't vote for Jeter. Then you get people calling for people to be stripped of their voting. [url]https://yanksgoyard.com/2020/01/23/mlb-wont-release-writer-didnt-vote-yankees-jeter/ Unfortunately, Hall of Fame voting is based on opinions, not facts. An illustrious player's CV is not enough, alone, to get them into Cooperstown (Curt Schilling). Should a writer use their vote as a ploy to self-satisfy, then they should be stripped of the privilege to determine who stands among the games all-time greats. Of course his headline reveals he doesn't even understand the process, or event basic grammar. MLB won't release name of writer that didn't vote for Yankees Derek Jeter First, it should be the writer who didn't vote for Jeter, not that. But MLB isn't even involved. The BBWAA runs the process. At least he confesses this: As a boy turned man that idolized Jeter, proudly wearing his jersey, imitating his batting stance and forever referring to him as my favorite player, I will do my best to solely focus on the fact that Jeets is months away from being enshrined as just the 26th shortstop ever.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 31 2020 08:54 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=Anthony Rieber]Derek Jeter was a singular player and person in baseball history. He deserves to stand alone at the podium as the entire Hall of Fame Class of 2020 on July 26 in Cooperstown.

What an asshole is this Rieber. I can't believe someone so lacking in self-awareness and so biased has a career in journalism. Singular? Rieber should be forced to read Babe Ruth and Jackie Robinson autobiographies. And then have those books rammed up his ass. Hard-cover, preferably.

Ceetar Jan 31 2020 10:18 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

'Character Clause' means that it's okay to leave Jeter off. Means it's an opinion. Means .. .. means that this is just baseball's version of the Academy Awards and is basically just a self-serving way for writer's to have something to talk about in the offseason.

nymr83 Jan 31 2020 11:05 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

First, it should be the writer who didn't vote for Jeter, not that. You don't know that, unless you are sure that all baseball writers are people. And if you think that is true, I give you Exhibit A: Anthony Rieber

Frayed Knot Apr 29 2020 05:56 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Baseball's HoF is expected, in the next few days, to announce the postponement of the 2020 induction ceremonies with the idea that this year's class would be inducted along with the 2021 class next summer ... meaning of course that not only is Derek Jeter not going to go in as a solo act but will now be forced to share his date with even more lesser mortals. In the immortal words of Colonel Kurtz: 'The horror ... the horror'

MFS62 Apr 29 2020 06:14 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Frayed Knot wrote: Baseball's HoF is expected, in the next few days, to announce the postponement of the 2020 induction ceremonies with the idea that this year's class would be inducted along with the 2021 class next summer ... meaning of course that not only is Derek Jeter not going to go in as a solo act but will now be forced to share his date with even more lesser mortals. In the immortal words of Colonel Kurtz: 'The horror ... the horror' Oh goody*. By then there will be a movement to vote him into the executives wing, too. Later * = SM= 96%

41Forever Apr 29 2020 03:58 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

So, there are no obvious first-ballot guys next year. I think Bonds, Clemens and Schilling will be in their ninth year. If Bonds or Clemens get in, that controversy would completely overshadow St. Derek at the 2021 ceremony. Or, will writers not vote for those guys for that very reason?

MFS62 Apr 30 2020 06:48 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

So, there are no obvious first-ballot guys next year. I think Bonds, Clemens and Schilling will be in their ninth year. If Bonds or Clemens get in, that controversy would completely overshadow St. Derek at the 2021 ceremony. Or, will writers not vote for those guys for that very reason? There are other, better, reasons not to vote for them. (Steroids and "would I want my kids to grow up to be like them?" A/K/A asshole factor come to mind) Later

Ceetar Apr 30 2020 08:30 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

neither of which has anything to do with how good they were.

MFS62 Apr 30 2020 09:12 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=Ceetar post_id=36165 time=1588257009 user_id=102] neither of which has anything to do with how good they were.

And Hannibal Lecter was an excellent surgeon. But he was never invited to speak before the AMA.

Later

Benjamin Grimm Apr 30 2020 09:21 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

The statistics show how good they were, but that alone doesn't make them worthy of being honored.

metsmarathon Apr 30 2020 10:03 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

there's really no reason not to put schilling in the hall. he has shitty opinions, and has done shitty things since he's retired, but who the fuck cares. it's not the hall of peacably-retired, progressive minds. what he did on the field merits inclusion. also worthy of inclusion in 2021 are rolen, helton, and andruw jones. i still believe there's an argument to be made in favor of bonds and clemens, or at least i think there's still a discussion to be had. whether or not it changes any opinions is another matter entirely. personally, i have an easier time putting those two in than sosa and many others, as it's clear their greatness was established before they started using, or at least before it is collectively understood that they started using. i'm not entirely sure that i'm ready to see either of them in the hall, mind you, but i can understand the arguments for it.

Ceetar Apr 30 2020 10:08 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

if there's any reason to keep Bonds out, you HAVE to keep Schilling out for being a racist asshole. He doesn't deserve a stage or any honor in anyway. If you're going to throw out the character clause (as you should) then there's no reason to keep probably the second best (hi Trout) baseball player any of us have ever seen out. flat out, the hall is meaningless and just an arbitrary set of writers bloviating if it doesn't include him.

metsmarathon Apr 30 2020 10:37 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

to my knowledge, there are no allegations against schilling for being a user. maybe i'm wrong, or misremember. assholes and racists have always been allowed into the hall. the voters have sometimes not liked voting for them, but being an asshole is not the reason that bonds is getting blockaded. the character clause being invoked is a new thing in the steroid age. show me the actual historical precedent.

Edgy MD Apr 30 2020 11:15 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Dick/Richie Allen spent 14 years on the ballot getting between 3.7 and 18.9% of the vote. Many consider him to be statistically as good as anybody on the outside looking in. Apparently he's expressed a lot of regret in his post-playing days, leading to the weird turnaround where a lot of former teammates and coaches say, "He's not so bad, a lot of that is overblown," and Richie saying, "I was huge asshole." I'm not sure there has to be precedent, though. It's part of the explicit standard. To the extent that folks have taken the clause seriously, I imagine it's rarely been a difference-maker, but there are probably more cases of borderline guys whose widely admired character helped put them over the top than cases of borderline guys whose widely criticized character helped keep them out.

Benjamin Grimm Apr 30 2020 11:22 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

It's certainly not because of a lack of talent that Shoeless Joe Jackson and Peter Edward Rose are not in the Hall of Fame. The statistics of Pete Rose and Barry Bonds etc. are not being expunged. Their accomplishments are part of the permanent historical record, as they should be. But Shame negates Fame, and those who have tarnished the game, as Bonds and Clemens etc. have done, don't deserve to be honored. Frankly, I'd rather see Rose in the Hall than Bonds (not that I'm saying Rose should be in) because Bonds did more harm to the game. Rose's all-time base hit record is legitimate. Bonds' home run record is a travesty.

Edgy MD Apr 30 2020 11:51 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Good use of "Travesty."

Ceetar Apr 30 2020 12:07 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Frankly, I'd rather see Rose in the Hall than Bonds (not that I'm saying Rose should be in) because Bonds did more harm to the game. Rose's all-time base hit record is legitimate. Bonds' home run record is a travesty. False. Bonds was GREAT for the game, was fun to watch. DOMINATED. What a great player. oh im' sorry, is the hall not about baseball? I'm confused. but i reterate, fuck the hall and the BBWAA. Meaningless and arbitrary. Bonds is an all time great and we can just use 'all time great' instead of 'Hall of FAme' the first is more meaningful.

Edgy MD Apr 30 2020 12:18 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

How can it be bullshit to state a preference? —Rob Gordon

Benjamin Grimm Apr 30 2020 12:25 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

I disagree. Bonds was not great for the game. He was an absolute disgrace.

Frayed Knot Apr 30 2020 01:02 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Plus the HoF is neither meaningless nor arbitrary, and it certainly doesn't simply become so by one not agreeing with some of the choices made (for entry or for not).

nymr83 Apr 30 2020 01:06 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

to my knowledge, there are no allegations against schilling for being a user. maybe i'm wrong, or misremember. assholes and racists have always been allowed into the hall. the voters have sometimes not liked voting for them, but being an asshole is not the reason that bonds is getting blockaded. the character clause being invoked is a new thing in the steroid age. show me the actual historical precedent. But Bonds was an asshole to the wrong people - THE MEDIA! He was always nice to the fans. But the fans don't write the articles everyone reads about Bonds "Steroids" are the ONLY reason to keep him out. Lumping him in with Clemens for the way he treated people is just wrong.

Ceetar Apr 30 2020 01:23 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

well, there are credible domestic violence claims in Bonds history, but it's not like the media cares about that either. based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system. It's literally what the Hall of Fame is. Maybe it's not _completely_ meaningless, but the BBWAA now accounts for a tiny percentage of what passes for 'baseball entertainment' whereas 80 years ago they were probably much everything that wasn't the game itself. For me, it's meaningless. Sort of like anything that comes from Joel Sherman. It contributes zero value to my baseball experience, and sometimes negative value. I have no problem referring to Barry Bonds as 'inner circle' or 'all time great' or 'hall of famer' if I was writing about him. It's a superlative, and it's accurate.

nymr83 Apr 30 2020 01:43 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

well, there are credible domestic violence claims in Bonds history, but it's not like the media cares about that either. I didn't even know about that! But yeah, they care more that he wouldn't sit down with them for an interview than they do if he beat a woman.

41Forever Apr 30 2020 02:19 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Frankly, I'd rather see Rose in the Hall than Bonds (not that I'm saying Rose should be in) because Bonds did more harm to the game. Rose's all-time base hit record is legitimate. Bonds' home run record is a travesty. False. Bonds was GREAT for the game, was fun to watch. DOMINATED. What a great player. I disagree with this. One of the game's most hallowed records -- if not the most hallowed -- has been rendered meaningless and possibly out of reach because of a guy juicing. That's bad for the game, even if it gave everyone a common villain to boo for a while. I disagree with a lot of the stupid stuff Schilling has posted on social media after retiring, but I don't think that has any impact on what he did while playing.

Johnny Lunchbucket Apr 30 2020 04:07 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

As I've said before we can;t get too caught up in "counting" stats, especially as we don't truly understand how widespread juicing was in his era (for example how many pitchers used? How many juicy minor leaguers were coming for their jobs? Why do we assume only those who were caught were users?) and it can be argued that as ethically dubious as it was it wasn't technically illegal at least for a time. So I just mentally adjust for the era. 73 was 61 in the steroid era. 15 was 61 in the dead-ball era, etc etc. The number itself doesn't make a guy any more or less suspect. How do we know Schilling wasn't also a juicer? Because he says he didn;t?

MFS62 Apr 30 2020 05:25 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020 Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 30 2020 06:19 PM

well, there are credible domestic violence claims in Bonds history, but it's not like the media cares about that either. I didn't even know about that! I started a thread about it on the old board with the title "She Called Him Jeff Kent During Sex". Later

Ceetar Apr 30 2020 05:49 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Hell the ball was adding dozens of feet to every fly ball last year. Fact. We have no idea the baseball result of what Bonds took, especially if you don't know the result of the stuff the pitchers took. And hell, Jeter nearly got in unanimously, and the evidence for him was more damning than Piazza.

metsmarathon May 01 2020 08:48 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

there was evidence against jeter...?

Ceetar May 01 2020 09:13 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

more than Piazza, yes.

metsmarathon May 01 2020 09:35 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

and that evidence was...?

MFS62 May 01 2020 09:40 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=metsmarathon post_id=36238 time=1588347336 user_id=83] and that evidence was...?

The manufacturer of the steroids was seen with a gift bsket.

Later

Ceetar May 01 2020 09:56 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

practically every single person he played with used, openly, in the same clubhouse no? but Mr. "whatever it takes" never even tried pre-banned Andro? sure. It a safer bet that anyone that played pre..i dunno, 2004? is more likely to have used than not. Certainly if keeping a 'clean' (ha) Hall is important, you have to keep guys like this out.

metsmarathon May 01 2020 10:06 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

so, your evidence is that he existed? ok. sure. good enough for me.

Ceetar May 01 2020 10:12 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

he's also been linked to various trainers with PED ties over the years. This is aside from the obvious arbitrary line about what's an acceptable drug/steroid and what's not. Cortisone, toradol, others. Never mind amphetamines. And he's getting so much credit for championships, for counting stats, all of which are enormously inflated by confirmed steroid use.

nymr83 May 01 2020 10:24 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

I'm all for attacking Jeter, but he seems no more or less guilty of steroid use than the average player who played in that time period. Are we keeping 1995-2004 out of the hall?

Ceetar May 01 2020 11:21 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

some voters are, yes. Except for Jeter who is purer than the whitest snow (spoiler alert: that's the cocaine).

metsmarathon May 01 2020 11:54 AM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

=Ceetar post_id=36242 time=1588349532 user_id=102]This is aside from the obvious arbitrary line about what's an acceptable drug/steroid and what's not. Cortisone, toradol, others.

i use fluticasone for my allergies. am i a muscle-bound cheating brute whose entry to the hall would tarnish its well-varnished floors?



you cut the legs out of all your other arguments by making this preposterous one.



there is a tremendous difference between corticosteroids and gonadal steroids. reducing inflammation is hardly the same as building muscle.

Ceetar May 01 2020 12:16 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

It's absolutely not preposterous. It's actually more preposterous that drugs that help your body recover and heal faster are banned, but ones that let you mask pain to dangerous levels are okay. Drugs that enhance your workout are banned. 91 exemptions for amphetamine-laden ADHD treatments were issued though. I'm sure some, maybe even many, are legitimate, but I can't imagine it's hard for an athlete to find a doctor willing to diagnose that either. MLB, and all sports really, are abusing drugs under the guise of competing and getting players back out there, and it's hard to think the way some of these things are used is safer than a regimented workout program that includes a banned steroid.

metsmarathon May 01 2020 01:04 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

all sports abuse the body at risk of future long-term damage for short term gains. while i don't entirely disagree with the underlying premise, there is a clear difference between working within the framework provided, with medically acceptable and legal treatments, and with those that are not. if everything was legal, i suppose there would be no problem. if nothing was legal, i guess there would be no problem either, maybe. when some things are legal and others are not, you get punished for doing the illegal things. if everything legal is really so bad, and so advantageous, then there would be no reason to take the illegal stuff, would there? if you take the illegal stuff, no matter how similar you may think it is to the legal stuff, no matter how much worse you thing the legal stuff is, you can yell all you want that it shouldn't be against the law, but you do not have the ability to claim that you broke no law.

Ceetar May 01 2020 02:26 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

I mean, we're talking an arbitrary classification of baseball players in a wing of a building. 'laws' are whatever we make them. also Bonds never failed a test. neither did Piazza but he had to wait too.

Edgy MD May 01 2020 04:10 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

Of course Bonds failed a test. He failed several. If you want to throw them out or question their viabilitiy or credibility, that's up to you. But this isn't a court of law here.

Ceetar May 01 2020 04:25 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

it's not a court of law. it's baseball, we have the numbers. they're extremely good. historic. Best ever. home run king. undisputed. MLB started putting in drug testing programs for PR purposes, and Bonds was basically black-balled out of the league by then.

Edgy MD May 01 2020 04:36 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

You change the subject when confronted with information you don't like. That's not good. Clearly there is nothing undisputed about his status, and it doesn't serve the truth any good to pretend so.

Ceetar May 01 2020 05:33 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

in that he never failed a test that MLB administered as part of the collectively bargained joint drug testing program and therefore didn't violate their rules and laws? I'm not changing the subject i'm just shitting all over the hall of fame and the bbwaa at any opportunity. garbage. Bond is undisputedly the home run king and one of the best of all time. He was pretty close to that even without the last 5 or so years of his career that put him over. He has a billion records. Those records count. If he's not in because of some murky 'advantage' than you can't put Jeter in either, because you can't really quantify how much steroids helped him, even if it was just lineup construction or getting extra postseason time because of them. Hell, he probably doesn't get 3000 hits if he spent his entire career with the Royals.

Edgy MD May 01 2020 07:39 PM Re: Baseball Hall of Fame 2020

I don't think you know what "undisputedly" means. It's not the Hall of Fame that you're shitting on.