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Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

G-Fafif Jan 13 2020 12:12 PM

Hinch and Luhnow suspended for a year for their role in Houston's 2017 sign-stealing escapade. Cora to get something, too, for having coached the system in question. No players, including Beltran, will be hit, per ESPN's Jeff Passan.

G-Fafif Jan 13 2020 12:14 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

From the Athletic: The penalties, according to sources with knowledge of Manfred's decision, include: • A one-year suspension for general manager Jeff Luhnow. • A one-year suspension for manager A.J. Hinch. • The forfeitures of first- and second-round draft picks in both 2020 and '21. • A fine of $5 million, the maximum allowed under MLB's constitution. • The placement of former Astros assistant GM Brandon Taubman on baseball's ineligible list. On Nov. 12, The Athletic reported that the Astros stole signs during regular-season home games in 2017 with the aid of a center-field camera. The next day, The Athletic reported that Alex Cora, the team's bench coach at the time, was a mastermind of the team's sign-stealing scheme. Discipline for Cora will be determined after baseball completes its investigation of the Red Sox for separate sign-stealing allegations that occurred while Cora was the team's manager in 2018, as reported by The Athletic last week. No players were disciplined. MLB instead chose to issue penalties to those who were in positions of authority.

LWFS Jan 13 2020 12:36 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

I mean, it's not undeserved, but... yeesh. 4 top picks is MASSIVE. That's like a fine of tens-- or even hundreds-- of millions, potentially. Given that precedent... you can't suspend Cora for LESS than a season now, can you?

kcmets Jan 13 2020 12:52 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

[FIMG=600]http://kcmets.com/CPF/bastards.jpg[/FIMG] Them bastards at MLB hit us hard, George... HARD!!!

seawolf17 Jan 13 2020 12:58 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Alex Cora is going to get the hammer dropped on him in a serious way.

G-Fafif Jan 13 2020 01:10 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Jim Crane has fired Hinch and Luhnow.

Frayed Knot Jan 13 2020 01:19 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

BAM!!!!

LWFS Jan 13 2020 01:22 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Probably best for all the baseball people that the Nats took the Series last year, no?

G-Fafif Jan 13 2020 01:48 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Playing in Washington allowed Nationals to become very familiar with ethically ambiguous behavior.

smg58 Jan 13 2020 01:51 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Wow, I figured they'd get a week. I have no problem with dropping the hammer, but the league had better be prepared to follow through if the situation turns out not to be unique.

Frayed Knot Jan 13 2020 02:03 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

=smg58 post_id=29629 time=1578948685 user_id=62] Wow, I figured they'd get a week.

That it wound up being the suspensions plus MAJOR draft picks plus maximum fines etc. is something I hadn't really thought through, but I was fully expecting at least a year-long suspension(s) for whomever

they found culpable in this. It's just too serious not to (except I guess if you're the NFL w/Belachik where they wound up doing, what, for Spygate ... took away his lunchtime pudding pop desserts for a week

or something like that?)

I have no problem with dropping the hammer, but the league had better be prepared to follow through if the situation turns out not to be unique.

Yup. But what this also will do is discourage anyone from trying something similar in the near future, which is of course the whole purpose in dropping not just the hammer on them but the anvil as well.

bmfc1 Jan 13 2020 02:10 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Carlos Beltran is the only player mentioned in the report. And he's all ours!

Ceetar Jan 13 2020 02:28 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

=G-Fafif post_id=29628 time=1578948482 user_id=55] Playing in Washington allowed Nationals to become very familiar with ethically ambiguous behavior.

and better practiced at getting away with it?

nymr83 Jan 13 2020 02:47 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

I would have been fine with even more punishments, but this is fine. MLB flat out wrote a memo to the teams saying not to do exactly this and they kept doing it, they should have taken a page out of the NCAA punishment book with programs found to be flagrantly violating the rules and said "no postseason for 5 years"!

bmfc1 Jan 13 2020 03:17 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

The Astros lost their 1st 2 draft picks for this draft and the next draft. They were supposed to pick 30th (last) in the 1st round so the 2d round starts one pick earlier this year (the Mets pick 19th).

41Forever Jan 13 2020 04:12 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Interesting about Hinch, per Verducci: Manfred hit Hinch with the third-longest suspension of a manager in baseball history. Only Pete Rose, banned in 1989 for life for gambling received a longer punishment. MLB found that while Hinch did not participate in or condone the infractions, it disciplined him for failing to stop them in a timely manner. The Astros stole signs for three months in the 2017 regular season before Hinch at least twice explicitly made known to the players he disapproved of the behavior by breaking the television monitor.

Edgy MD Jan 13 2020 04:27 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

The Mets really dodged some bullets in this. Not only has Carlos Beltran (so far) escaped punishment, but they also had long seen Alex Cora as managerial material and interviewed him before the Red Sox hired him. In fact, I think he and Mickey were hired on the same day. Is this going to end up tainting the 2017 Astros championship and the 2018 Sox championship? More importantly, I realize that in the age of President Trump, nobody has more than 10 minutes of foresight, but how do they not expect something like this to get out? Players' loyalties and interests change all the time.

Ceetar Jan 13 2020 05:46 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

my guess that they just figured since everyone does it no one would really make a big deal or a big punishment of it, much like amphetamines, or pine tar, or pretending to, or purposely getting hit by, baseballs to get one base.

Edgy MD Jan 13 2020 07:38 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

If everyone is doing it — and maybe they are — wouldn't this investigation have uncovered evidence to that effect? Dozens of players were interviewed. Wouldn't somebody have said, "And you should see what goes on in Arizona! Holy shit with those guys!"?

Frayed Knot Jan 13 2020 07:40 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

my guess that they just figured since everyone does it no one would really make a big deal or a big punishment of it, much like amphetamines, or pine tar, or pretending to, or purposely getting hit by, baseballs to get one base. Except that this went WAY beyond any of those. If a sport doesn't have its integrity then it has nothing, or it simply becomes a spectacle like WWE or a vehicle for gambling like, well, football*. And baseball doesn't lend itself very well to being a spectacle or as a gambling sport. As Al Davis used to say in a voice that betrayed his native Brooklyn: 'The opposing Quarterback must go down and he must go down hard'. Well the perpetrators of this scheme, as well as those in charge who did nothing to stop it, must go down and they must go down hard. Not that I think the NFL is corrupt or anything, although I'm always amazed by the number of football fans who believe it IS and yet continue to watch, follow, AND gamble on it anyway.

Edgy MD Jan 13 2020 08:07 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

So is José Altuve — who always seems to know what pitch is coming — still one of the best players on the planet?

Ceetar Jan 13 2020 08:46 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Edgy MD wrote: If everyone is doing it — and maybe they are — wouldn't this investigation have uncovered evidence to that effect? Dozens of players were interviewed. Wouldn't somebody have said, "And you should see what goes on in Arizona! Holy shit with those guys!"? that wasn't the focus of the investigation. Logan Morrison did name other teams.

LWFS Jan 13 2020 09:37 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

When this happened a few years ago with the Sawx, the commish spelled out the exact nature of the violation, and heavily implied that the next violation involving technological aid would carry grave, GRAVE consequences, didn't he? So... why on earth would one expect a slap on the wrist here? Cora installed the monitors in the dugout twice, once after Hinch pretty explicitly expressed displeasure with the move. So... wouldn't Cora's actions merit at LEAST a year of unpaid vacay here?

smg58 Jan 14 2020 04:56 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

I have to think that Cora is getting at least two years out of this. Probably more, since he is more directly guilty than Hinch and has done it for two teams. The onus is now on managers and GMs to out anybody they know is doing this. That is probably the only way to enforce this, but their jobs just got a lot harder. So what do we do with Beltran, knowing he was a willing and active participant in this?

Johnny Lunchbucket Jan 14 2020 05:32 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Beltran was unqualified to be a manager even without this scandal, so I think the Mets will leave him in place.

seawolf17 Jan 14 2020 06:34 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Beltran was unqualified to be a manager even without this scandal, so I think the Mets will leave him in place. Exactly. Dealing with some of the shitheads in our fan base (present company excluded, natch) is punishment enough. =Ceetar post_id=29638 time=1578962819 user_id=102] my guess that they just figured since everyone does it no one would really make a big deal or a big punishment of it, much like amphetamines, or pine tar, or pretending to, or purposely getting hit by, baseballs to get one base.

Also, this. To think the Astros and Sox (and the other teams Logan Morrison mentioned) are the only ones is hopelessly naive. Maybe some teams did it better, or more completely, but they're not alone.


=smg58 post_id=29629 time=1578948685 user_id=62]
Wow, I figured they'd get a week. I have no problem with dropping the hammer, but the league had better be prepared to follow through if the situation turns out not to be unique.

Hope you still have your managerial resume on file with the Mets, smg! You know, just in case.

smg58 Jan 14 2020 08:04 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

I'm not sure winning Ottoneu once qualifies me...

Ceetar Jan 14 2020 09:08 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Regardless, the commissioner seems to want to pretend he's "resolved" this by telling other teams to stop talking about it. lalala nothing to see here, we made a big show of punishing the Astros and now it's all fine. Also lots of national/local "reporters" chomping at the bit to harass Carlos Beltran about this.

kcmets Jan 14 2020 09:43 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Boiled down timeline of the cheating scandal here.

Vic Sage Jan 14 2020 09:43 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

=smg58 post_id=29663 time=1579014258 user_id=62] I'm not sure winning Ottoneu once qualifies me...

It's more of a qualification than Beltran had...

kcmets Jan 14 2020 11:12 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

I find it hard to imagine Beltrán won't be fired soon, maybe this week...

Ceetar Jan 14 2020 11:32 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

WTF would they fire Carlos? that makes no sense.

41Forever Jan 14 2020 11:34 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 14 2020 11:42 AM

=kcmets post_id=29679 time=1579025522 user_id=53] I find it hard to imagine Beltrán won't be fired soon, maybe this week...

You think the Mets are going to eat a three-year, $3 million contract before it even starts?



I haven't read the investigation, so I don't know how deeply he was involved in this. But if he's not suspended I don't see why the Mets would fire him. Is there even anyone out there available you want?



OE, just saw this from Verducci:

The report was damning on so many levels. The Astros, it established, cheated “throughout the 2017 postseason,” when they won the World Series, giving an MLB-sanctioned taint to that championship. Alex Cora and Carlos Beltran were at the heart of the schemes–the only named participants after 68 interviews. The Astros used so many methods to pull off their chicanery that it was hard to keep them straight: a runner, a smart watch, a cell phone, the dugout phone, the trash can, the replay monitor, the video room, the back office analysts, clapping, whistling, yelling, a massage gun … wait, what? A massage gun

nymr83 Jan 14 2020 11:37 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Regardless, the commissioner seems to want to pretend he's "resolved" this by telling other teams to stop talking about it. lalala nothing to see here, we made a big show of punishing the Astros and now it's all fine. Also lots of national/local "reporters" chomping at the bit to harass Carlos Beltran about this. Why would people stop talking about it? the precedent now is that players won't be punished so every player who doesnt like a coach/front-office is incentivized to rat out his former teams and watch them get punished for lack of oversight

41Forever Jan 14 2020 11:44 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

The Mets will certainly have to address it, saying they are aware of the report, would never condone such action and have told Beltran it will not be tolerated. They should probably get Beltran in front of some reporters quickly once they know he won't face discipline. Get out in front and move on.

kcmets Jan 14 2020 11:48 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

=Ceetar post_id=29682 time=1579026732 user_id=102]WTF would they fire Carlos? that makes no sense.

You'll see.

41Forever Jan 14 2020 11:49 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Did the Astros name an interim yet?

G-Fafif Jan 14 2020 11:57 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

=41Forever post_id=29689 time=1579027759 user_id=69] Did the Astros name an interim yet?

Joe Espada is reportedly in line. He was Hinch's bench coach last year, was considered a hot candidate in the offseason and wasn't with the Astros in 2017.

Frayed Knot Jan 14 2020 12:55 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Regardless, the commissioner seems to want to pretend he's "resolved" this by telling other teams to stop talking about it. lalala nothing to see here, we made a big show of punishing the Astros and now it's all fine. Tough to make the case that suspending for an entire year (and in effect breaking up) what had been the most successful Mgr/GM tandem in recent years, on top of imposing the maximum allowable fine under MLB's constitution and the taking away of four top draft picks is the equivalent of wallpapering over a bad paint job. And beyond just the immediate penalties, do you think Hinch and Luhnow, or Cora for that matter, are getting jobs in MLB again? Or that Houston's lone championship after nearly 60 years of existence isn't tainted by all this? Or that this doesn't set the future of the franchise back by several years? I mean, short of taking the franchise away from Jim Crane, I'm not sure what else Manfred was supposed to do; maybe get Trump to order a drone strike on the city of Houston?

nymr83 Jan 14 2020 02:09 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Frayed Knot wrote: Regardless, the commissioner seems to want to pretend he's "resolved" this by telling other teams to stop talking about it. lalala nothing to see here, we made a big show of punishing the Astros and now it's all fine. Tough to make the case that suspending for an entire year (and in effect breaking up) what had been the most successful Mgr/GM tandem in recent years, on top of imposing the maximum allowable fine under MLB's constitution and the taking away of four top draft picks is the equivalent of wallpapering over a bad paint job. And beyond just the immediate penalties, do you think Hinch and Luhnow, or Cora for that matter, are getting jobs in MLB again? Or that Houston's lone championship after nearly 60 years of existence isn't tainted by all this? Or that this doesn't set the future of the franchise back by several years? I mean, short of taking the franchise away from Jim Crane, I'm not sure what else Manfred was supposed to do; maybe get Trump to order a drone strike on the city of Houston? Luhnow may have other issues with the whole Taubman thing. Hinch is widely respected as a manager and the investigation found he didnt create or involve himself in the scheme and even tried (half-heartedly?) to destroy the equipment involved. he is being punished for not stopping it, but i think he is still pretty damn employable.

Johnny Lunchbucket Jan 14 2020 02:10 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/upload/mlb/cglrhmlrwwbkacty27l7.pdf

41Forever Jan 14 2020 03:53 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Wow. And there it is. He's the only player mentioned in the report. Approximately two months into the 2017 season, a group of players, including Carlos Beltrán, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams' signs and communicating the signs to the batter. Cora arranged for a video room technician to install a monitor displaying the center field camera feed immediately outside of the Astros' dugout. (The center field camera was primarily used for player development purposes and was allowed under MLB rules at the time when used for that purpose.) Witnesses have provided largely consistent accounts of how the monitor was utilized. One or more players watched the live feed of the center field camera on the monitor, and after decoding the sign, a player would bang a nearby trash can with a bat to communicate the upcoming pitch type to the batter. (Witnesses explained that they initially experimented with communicating sign information by clapping, whistling, or yelling, but that they eventually determined that banging a trash can was the preferred method of communication.) Players occasionally also used a massage gun to bang the trash can. Generally, one or two bangs corresponded to certain off-speed pitches, while no bang corresponded to a fastball.

Ceetar Jan 14 2020 05:53 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

because he's no longer a player.

kcmets Jan 14 2020 06:00 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Did you even read it? 2017, it's in the first sentence.

smg58 Jan 14 2020 06:05 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

=nymr83 post_id=29695 time=1579036179 user_id=54]Luhnow may have other issues with the whole Taubman thing. Hinch is widely respected as a manager and the investigation found he didnt create or involve himself in the scheme and even tried (half-heartedly?) to destroy the equipment involved. he is being punished for not stopping it, but i think he is still pretty damn employable.

My guess is a year of penance for Hinch will be sufficient. Luhnow maybe not, and Cora is done.



Which brings us back to Beltran, who appears to be more culpable than the two men who just lost a year of work. I don't think he will be suspended, because everybody either participated or looked the other way. If you suspend one player you suspend them all, and the league chose not to go there. I think 41 is right, that the Mets need to be proactive about this. But that assumes that Beltran can defend himself adequately in the court of public opinion. If he cannot, and it's important for the Mets to determine this before putting Beltran in front of a microphone, then there is only one thing the Mets can do.

TransMonk Jan 14 2020 06:09 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Yeah...this is a pretty horrible look for Beltran and the team's decision to hire him.

Johnny Lunchbucket Jan 14 2020 07:45 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

They should fire him now and fire the idiot who hired him too

seawolf17 Jan 15 2020 06:29 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

I'm a little surprised he/they haven't made a statement of some kind yet. I guess they're waiting for fallout to settle a bit?

Johnny Lunchbucket Jan 15 2020 06:41 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

I'd whack him now. Even without this scandal he was an iffy choice IMO but I suppose to be fair they oughta come clean as to what he'd revealed and what he hadn't. The president may get away with lying to the media but Carlos Beltran shouldn't

Johnny Lunchbucket Jan 15 2020 07:12 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Beltran is impressive as he can lie in 2 languages https://nypost.com/2019/11/03/mets-risky-media-obsession-put-carlos-beltran-over-the-top/ Carlos Beltran: Astros stole signs in 2017, but not illegally By Joel Sherman SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. — Carlos Beltran, a member of the 2017 Astros, denied knowledge of a camera that his team allegedly used to electronically steal signs that season, claiming that the World Series champions stole signs organically and legally. “I'm not aware of that camera,” Beltran told The Post in a text message exchange. “We were studying the opposite team every day.” A report on The Athletic, which included whistleblowing quotes from former Astro right-hander Mike Fiers, described a camera that was positioned in the outfield at Minute Maid Park. According to the story, Astros personnel deciphered and relayed signs to hitters through a banging-on-trash-can signal. Beltran, who is well-regarded for his baseball IQ and was named Mets manager earlier this offseason, insisted the Astros only stole signs from standing on second base. “We took a lot of pride studying pitchers [on] the computer. That is the only technology that I use and understand,” he said. “It was fun seeing guys get to the ballpark to look for little details. “The game of baseball for years, guys have given location and if the catchers get lazy and the pitcher doesn't cover the signs from second base [then] of course players are going to take advantage. I don't call that cheating. I call that using small details to take advantage. I think baseball is doing a great job adding new technology to make sure the game is even for both teams. It's easy to blame someone when they win.” Astros manager AJ Hinch declined comment on the report.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 15 2020 07:15 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

I have to wonder what kind of impact this may have on Beltran's Hall-of-Fame chances.

Ceetar Jan 15 2020 07:22 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I have to wonder what kind of impact this may have on Beltran's Hall-of-Fame chances. why? It's not like he has pimples.

ashie62 Jan 15 2020 07:52 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

=kcmets post_id=29679 time=1579025522 user_id=53] I find it hard to imagine Beltrán won't be fired soon, maybe this week...

Agreed. Theres always David Wright? Just kidding but wishing

41Forever Jan 15 2020 07:56 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

The only thing I worry about is that the other three "faces" of this issue are gone, and will soon fade away. Beltran will be the only one out there every day and it has the potential to come up over and over. I know Manfred told the other teams not to comment on the discipline. But if I was advising the Mets for communications, I'd get Beltran before some reporters to face the music, get it all out in an answer-til-you-drop press conference and get it behind him. He needs to say that he did lie to reporters, but not to the Commissioner and his investigators. He's going to get questions the first time around the league in each visiting city. He has goodwill with the players and the media, and will take a hit, but can rebuild that. But they need to do that now before the "Will they fire him" speculation grows and grows. These guys have nothing else to write about. Give them a better story.

nymr83 Jan 15 2020 09:13 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

I know Manfred told the other teams not to comment on the discipline Did you like the Dodgers' "non-comment", it was basically "we've been asked not to comment on being cheated out of a world series" January">https://twitter.com/Dodgers/status/1216955908799860736?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">January 14, 2020

Johnny Lunchbucket Jan 15 2020 09:32 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

They fired Mickey for a lot of reasons but being bad with the press (occasionally hostile, often awkward) was one of them. Beltran is "good" with the press inasmuch as he can comfortably lie to them. Fuck him and Trump

Willets Point Jan 15 2020 09:40 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Maybe the solution to sign-stealing problems in MLB is to allow the pitcher & catcher to use technology like a smartwatch to communicate? I suppose batters/baserunners would still try to peek but it would be easier to hide from peeping eyes.

Ceetar Jan 15 2020 09:46 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Willets Point wrote: Maybe the solution to sign-stealing problems in MLB is to allow the pitcher & catcher to use technology like a smartwatch to communicate? I suppose batters/baserunners would still try to peek but it would be easier to hide from peeping eyes. whoops, the catcher kept the tech on during his AB while the pitcher was 'relieving himself' back in the video room. You could make the 'live' feed in stadium have a delay. You could use better signs that aren't as easily decoded. That's really all they had to do. be like, 5% more sneaky. But hell, maybe that's what happened. All this fuss is over something that seemingly ended on it's own because it was deemed to maybe not be that useful, and perhaps part of that is teams got better about encrypting their signs? Really, of all the easy things MLB could've done to combat this, tapping the phone lines was their solution? That's the "put a traffic cone on the pot hole" level of problem solving.

Willets Point Jan 15 2020 09:53 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

All good points. My main idea is that people in baseball have been trying to steal signs forever, and if the sign weren't out in the open, they would be harder to steal. I don't think MLB is going to solve a systemic problem by punishing a few individuals, but maybe if they come up with a more secure way of the pitcher & catcher to communicate, then they wouldn't have such a big problem.

Centerfield Jan 15 2020 10:05 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Just have the catcher text the pitcher before each pitch. Done. No signs.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 15 2020 10:39 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: They fired Mickey for a lot of reasons but being bad with the press (occasionally hostile, often awkward) was one of them. Beltran is "good" with the press inasmuch as he can comfortably lie to them. Fuck him and Trump And then fuck all the people who think that what Beltran did is besides the point but that what does matter is how Beltran is supposed to PIVOT and change the subject and essentially bullshit the public because we're all stupid and have the memory span of a fucking doorknob.

Ceetar Jan 15 2020 10:48 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

and then fuck all the people that think this matters at all to anything and that would rather hear quotes from Beltran about the 2017 Astros than the 2020 Mets.

RealityChuck Jan 15 2020 11:06 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Wow. And there it is. He's the only player mentioned in the report. Approximately two months into the 2017 season, a group of players, including Carlos Beltrán, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams' signs and communicating the signs to the batter. Cora arranged for a video room technician to install a monitor displaying the center field camera feed immediately outside of the Astros' dugout. Now, take the time to read the actual comment: a group of players, including Carlos Beltrán, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams' signs and communicating the signs to the batter. Reading comprehension test: 1. Does this say that Beltran set up the system? 2. Does this say he suggested setting up the system? 3. Does this say he had anything to do with operating it? 4. Did he suggest using a camera? 5. Is setting up a camera the only possible way to "improve on decoding opposing teams' signs"? 6. Does this say that Beltran was the only one who brought this up? Or was is "a group of players"? Beltran (among others) made a comment; Cora carried it out. Beltran certainly benefited from the system, but so did everyone on the roster. The only issue here was Beltran's name was mentioned (and he takes second fiddle to "a group of players"). He may have been a catalyst, but the report did not say he was involved in setting up the cheating.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 15 2020 11:14 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

=Ceetar post_id=29764 time=1579110491 user_id=102] and then fuck all the people that think this matters at all to anything and that would rather hear quotes from Beltran about the 2017 Astros than the 2020 Mets.

Yeah sure. Cheating in baseball doesn't matter. Especially when one of the cheaters has an enormous Mets connection. And I'm the King of the world. And Siam.

TransMonk Jan 15 2020 12:05 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Wow. And there it is. He's the only player mentioned in the report. Approximately two months into the 2017 season, a group of players, including Carlos Beltrán, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams' signs and communicating the signs to the batter. Cora arranged for a video room technician to install a monitor displaying the center field camera feed immediately outside of the Astros' dugout. Now, take the time to read the actual comment: a group of players, including Carlos Beltrán, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams' signs and communicating the signs to the batter. Reading comprehension test: 1. Does this say that Beltran set up the system? 2. Does this say he suggested setting up the system? 3. Does this say he had anything to do with operating it? 4. Did he suggest using a camera? 5. Is setting up a camera the only possible way to "improve on decoding opposing teams' signs"? 6. Does this say that Beltran was the only one who brought this up? Or was is "a group of players"? Beltran (among others) made a comment; Cora carried it out. Beltran certainly benefited from the system, but so did everyone on the roster. The only issue here was Beltran's name was mentioned (and he takes second fiddle to "a group of players"). He may have been a catalyst, but the report did not say he was involved in setting up the cheating. All the more reason to hear from Beltran tout de suite. The longer he and the Mets wait to get his story out there, then the longer the perception that he is one of the lynch pins will be burning in the media/interwebs.

Centerfield Jan 15 2020 12:16 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

So everyone knows that I am a big fan of Beltran so I'm biased here. But my thoughts: 1. If you're not punishing any other players, it makes no sense to punish Beltran simply because he is now a manager. He wasn't a manager then, and therefore, wasn't an authority figure. He's no more culpable than JD Davis. 2. Yes, he was specifically named, and maybe one can infer that he was more heavily involved than other players, but that is a pretty significant assumption to make when dealing with someone's career and reputation. As Chuck noted, the behavior he is cited for is not illegal. I think this is pretty sloppy on the Commissioner's part. If Beltran did something illegal, or more culpable than the other players, then it should be so listed. If he did not, his name shouldn't be included as it gives an implication of wrongdoing. 3. The Mets, like any other employer, can make whatever decision they want. That he wasn't suspended doesn't mean that Mets can't fire him. And just because he was guilty of this as a player doesn't mean he has to be fired. They are their own entity and can hire/fire based on whatever criteria they want. 4. As much as I love Beltran, and as much as I am rooting for him, I don't think he was the right decision as the manager of this team. I don't agree that he is very good with the media. In fact, I'd say he's thin-skinned and sensitive to criticism. I think this will end badly. 5. It was really shitty of him to lie. Sometimes a "no comment" works really well. Not sure how he could think that this would not come out.

kcmets Jan 15 2020 12:22 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

https://thenypost.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/back-cover-10.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=390>

Ceetar Jan 15 2020 12:44 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

4. As much as I love Beltran, and as much as I am rooting for him, I don't think he was the right decision as the manager of this team. I don't agree that he is very good with the media. In fact, I'd say he's thin-skinned and sensitive to criticism. I think this will end badly. 5. It was really shitty of him to lie. Sometimes a "no comment" works really well. Not sure how he could think that this would not come out. 4 is irrelevant though. The Mets thought he was (as do I), and shouldn't now fire him because of something random that happened in a previous job that he's not being punished for that has nothing to do with his job title now. 5. I mean, sure, whatever. he lied to the media about something he should've just flat out not commented on, sure, but the no comment is a comment too, so there's no avoiding it anyway. It doesn't avoid having to address it one more time (and that's it, because the Mets and Beltran won't be discussing this even as late as March) so he kept to the company line. whatever. We know he and the Mets aren't going to forthright with the media anyway, especially this bunch, because they haven't been for years and there's no reason to expect it's going to change now. So whatever. Stick to your plan. People are going to debate the merits of it, and that's fine, but don't change your mind based on January back pages. That's dumb, totally Wilponian too, which certainly isn't mutually exclusive.

ashie62 Jan 15 2020 01:24 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

How about this, its over Carlos

Frayed Knot Jan 15 2020 03:07 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

2. Yes, he was specifically named, and maybe one can infer that he was more heavily involved than other players, but that is a pretty significant assumption to make when dealing with someone's career and reputation. As Chuck noted, the behavior he is cited for is not illegal. I think this is pretty sloppy on the Commissioner's part. If Beltran did something illegal, or more culpable than the other players, then it should be so listed. If he did not, his name shouldn't be included as it gives an implication of wrongdoing. One school of thought is that he was the only player specifically named because he is no longer a player, w/Houston or elsewhere. There may be a few others in that category as well but he stayed in the game and has been 'management' ever since (first Yanquis, now field manager) so maybe that made him a prime target. MLB stated that it was going after "those in charge" -- Manfred's words from back after the 'Apple Watch' scandal in Boston -- in the event of further electronic hi-jinx, specifically NOT mentioning players. I think at least part of that deals with the difficultly they'd have in going after players, between union protection and the need to prove how much each player did/didn't participate and/or use the ill-gotten info it would be a logistical nightmare to find the biggest villains and have enough proof to make it stick. And you know the players aren't going to rat on each other.

dgwphotography Jan 16 2020 08:00 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

The Astros should be punished by banishing them to the National League, that'll teach 'em.

nymr83 Jan 16 2020 04:36 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

=dgwphotography post_id=29821 time=1579186816 user_id=78] The Astros should be punished by banishing them to the National League, that'll teach 'em.

No, send them to the AL East with the other cheaters. they'll get beat up by the high payroll Yankees/Sox every year AND - bonus - The MFYs have to travel all the way to Arlington more often for division games. suckers.

Frayed Knot Jan 20 2020 01:14 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

“Shit makes sense now ... I remember wondering how these guys were laying off some of my nasty pitches. Relaying all my signs in live speed to the batter. Ruining the integrity of the game. These dudes were all about the camera and social media. Now, they're all quiet! Lol” -- Marcus Stroman after seeing video from an Aug 6, 2017 game in which he pitched for the Jays against the Astros and was roughed up for 11 hits over 6-2/3 IP including a 3-for-4 by his would-be manager Carlos Beltran. On the video the now infamous sounds of garbage can banging can be heard. Well at least that's one awkward spring training meet-and-greet that now won't have to occur.

Edgy MD Jan 25 2020 05:51 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

This appeared in my FB feed this evening: https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2020/01/screen-shot-2020-01-24-at-10.28.50-pm.png>

MFS62 Jan 26 2020 09:18 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Well, that's one way to describe it: https://www.yahoo.com/sports/justin-verlander-laughed-saying-astros-122334554.html Later

nymr83 Jan 30 2020 10:13 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

an Astros fan went ahead and re-watched available video to log all the trash can banging. his results are here: http://signstealingscandal.com/players/ Two immediate takeaways: lots of can-banging for Beltran At-Bats. Almost none for Altuve who is a big outlier - did Altuve say "fuck you" to the cheaters?

batmagadanleadoff Jan 30 2020 10:32 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

an Astros fan went ahead and re-watched available video to log all the trash can banging. his results are here: http://signstealingscandal.com/players/ Two immediate takeaways: lots of can-banging for Beltran At-Bats. Almost none for Altuve who is a big outlier - did Altuve say "fuck you" to the cheaters? Who knows. Some batters just aren't comfortable receiving stolen signals and it's got nothing to do with ethics. They think they hit better without having the signs.

Edgy MD Jan 30 2020 10:40 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

But we also know that the trashy thing wasn't the only way of conveying the read, right?

Ceetar Jan 30 2020 11:55 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Edgy MD wrote: But we also know that the trashy thing wasn't the only way of conveying the read, right? 'know'? no. strongly suspect with lots of allegations from other players? sure. But like, then they're probably still doing it. Nothing they did in 2019 got flagged, so why not just keep at it? At least two people have look at that data and concluded that basically anything they gained was more than erased by all the times they failed to bang not because it was a fastball but because they didn't know.

bmfc1 Jan 31 2020 06:39 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Jayson Stark and Eno Sarris in The Athletic looked at the latest information on the Astros and some of it was about our very own Jake Marisnick: [BLOCKQUOTE]Four of their returning hitters made remarkable improvements in their ability to lay off [breaking balls below the zone] … Jake Marisnick dropped from 30 percent to 13 percent. ... Why did a guy as talented as Marisnick never become a full-time player in his six seasons in Houston? Swinging and missing had a lot to do with it. His 29.8-percent career strikeout percentage is the eighth-highest of any active player with at least 1,800 plate appearances. On one hand, that rate spiked to 34.8 percent overall in 2017, and that was Marisnick's highest (at the time) of any season he'd spent as an Astro. On the other hand, what stood out about it was this: Home: 29.2% Road: 39.6% That's a stunning 10.4-percent difference between his home and road strikeout ratios. Among players with at least 250 trips to the plate, he was one of only five players that year whose home strikeout rate was that much lower than his road rate, according to STATS. But that difference ranked first in baseball among hitters whose overall whiff rate was as high as Marisnick's. According to signstealingscandal.com, the Astros pounded that trash can on 22.8 percent of all the recorded pitches thrown to Marisnick at home that year. And where did that percentage rank on his team? The correct answer is first, well ahead of the runner-up, González, at 18.9.[/BLOCKQUOTE] Marisnick is going to face some tough questions when he arrives at Port St. Lucie.

Johnny Lunchbucket Jan 31 2020 06:43 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Maybe we can trade him for Juan Lagares

nymr83 Jan 31 2020 06:47 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

I hope he has a great year but jeez

Ceetar Jan 31 2020 07:12 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

I wonder what residual effect remains? Like, did he learn anything about laying off by knowing that pitch was coming? And he still would've had to identify 'low' out of the hand. Also is the BB% jump any different than if he's just made a concerted effort to swing at 10% fewer pitches?

ashie62 Feb 02 2020 11:59 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

The banging peaked on 8/4/17 against the Blue Jays according to the fan account Astros were up 15 games Blue Jays way back Final score 16-7 Astros with a nine run 4th inning for Houston The two Blue Jays pitchers in the fourth, Ceasr Valdes and Mike Bolsinger got hammered and have not pitched in the majors since A different kind of "Bang the Drum Softly."

batmagadanleadoff Feb 11 2020 08:23 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

https://nypost.com/2020/02/11/carlos-beltran-was-relentless-godfather-in-astros-sign-stealing-scheme/ Carlos Beltran was the ringleader of the Astros sign stealing scandal.

LWFS Feb 11 2020 08:33 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

EL ES AQUI EL ES AQUI EL ES AQUI AND YOU CAN REFER ANY QUESTIONS YOU HAVE TO HIM, OR ANY OF THE OTHER MEMBERS OF MY LEGAL TEAM

Ceetar Feb 11 2020 09:22 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

It's a garbage smear job anyway, but that post article is absolute trash. Just pure ignorant unadulterated garbage. You can tell the writer doesn't even understand the situation or key parts of it, and does reiterate the part about how Beltran 'lied' to the Post when he got hired. Which of course, is why he got fired. For not giving them the scoop. just pure trash.

Johnny Lunchbucket Feb 12 2020 05:22 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

There's nothing wrong with the Post article. It's just an article.

Frayed Knot Feb 12 2020 05:25 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

It's a garbage smear job anyway, but that post article is absolute trash. Just pure ignorant unadulterated garbage. You can tell the writer doesn't even understand the situation or key parts of it, and does reiterate the part about how Beltran 'lied' to the Post when he got hired. Which of course, is why he got fired. For not giving them the scoop. just pure trash. This article cites and links a new report from a different source [The Athletic]. It also uses quotes from Beltran contrasting what he said initially vs what he eventually confessed to knowing and doing: -- "I'm not concerned [about the investigation] ... I was not aware of the camera" vs "As a veteran player on the team I should've recognized the severity of the issue and truly regret the actions that were taken'', and it contains quotes from teammates saying not just how directly he was involved but how he orchestrated and maintained it often over the objections of others. "He disregarded [advice to put a stop to the system] and steamrolled everybody ... Where do you go if you're a young, impressionable player and this guy says, ‘We're doing this'?” Which of those issues turns this article into "pure ignorant unadulterated garbage"? btw, what team was it that Beltran came from when he arrived in Houston only to immediately inform his new team that their sign-stealing system was "behind the times"? Hard to remember at this point but it may have been one of those complaining the loudest recently.

Johnny Lunchbucket Feb 12 2020 06:13 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Not speaking for Ceets but my guess is he sees a conspiracy whereby Beltran is being set-up as a fall guy. That he was caught in a lie about his culpability--and the report and now these comments support that he was lying--doesn't matter in that case.

seawolf17 Feb 12 2020 06:32 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Frayed Knot wrote: btw, what team was it that Beltran came from when he arrived in Houston only to immediately inform his new team that their sign-stealing system was "behind the times"? Hard to remember at this point but it may have been one of those complaining the loudest recently. This, I thought, was far and away the most interesting piece of that article.

Ceetar Feb 12 2020 07:04 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Not speaking for Ceets but my guess is he sees a conspiracy whereby Beltran is being set-up as a fall guy. That he was caught in a lie about his culpability--and the report and now these comments support that he was lying--doesn't matter in that case. A little yes, but he IS being set up as a fall guy. I'm not saying he wasn't involved (I personally don't care though), but to paint him as some godfather evil overlord lambasting the little Astros (fucking Brian McCann. Consider the source here. Fucking Brian McCann. Who was with Beltran the year before happily cheating, who btw was with the Astros in 2018 as well. Technically they didn't 'bang' in 2018, does that mean they didn't relay signals? The MLB report says they were still relying signs. ) And please, the media runs you down NOW to talk about the 2017 Astros and you're not going to plead "oh, it was the other guys really!"? Of course you're going to deny it. Beltran again, is the only player being punished. A. MLB knew. Everyone knew. There are a zillion simple and easy things both opposing teams and MLB could've done to prevent this. They didn't. And then when it all hits the fan it's a player, employed elsewhere, that is damaged? B. 'I'm not aware of the camera' is clearly nonsense, but also not really the point. He wasn't being forthright, but why would he incriminate himself either? Also the WSJ report says it was front office guys that had decoded the signs using the game feed (this is legal, you're just now allowed to do it during the game) and support personal that was in the replay room. So Beltran wasn't really looking at the cameras anyway. C. MLB approved the Astros moving the monitor closer to the dugout, despite knowing they were stealing signs. D. There have been dozens of reports of other teams doing this, of lots of teams doing this, etc etc. MLB doesn't seem particularly interesting in chasing them down. It seems like it wants to pretend this is resolved, so Beltran gets lumped in with Hinch and Cora as the guys punished, and everyone else is just "whoops, okay, cover our tracks better" It's like the early 2000s where everyone's like "Oh, maybe I shouldn't send the steroids directly to the clubhouse with my name on it" E. It barely did anything. A lot of the research is suggesting that maybe there was an edge, but it was negated by NOT knowing other times. i.e. if the system fails the drawbacks are a lot worse than the gains you got for knowing. So we're talking about something that happened 3 years ago that maybe didn't even help that much, but Beltran is some evil overlord for it? F. to tie back to B. The media has been very clear that they were annoyed Beltran didn't dish the dirt in his press conference accepting the job, and this Post article is just another example of referencing that. A few reporters even said "oh, if he'd been as candid in his resignation PC as he was in his acceptance PC, he probably could've stayed." Literally said that. And this post article hits all the talking points without really understanding them. while fact checking some dates I saw this SI article from Verducci, who I generally find highly questionable at least as advanced understanding of the game goes, but this one seems at least well reasoned and thought out. (https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/01/13/houston-astros-cheating-punishment) He mentions an interesting catch-22 type thing. What if you go to the clubhouse to review game footage of your most recent PA, as many batters do, and you catch the catcher's signs while you do it? Then later on, you're on second base, pick up what the sign is? That's against the rules because you used the camera DURING the game. Are you just supposed to sit on that? sure.

Edgy MD Feb 12 2020 09:03 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

I banged in 2018. I banged a lot.

LWFS Feb 12 2020 10:32 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

HEEEEEEY now

Centerfield Feb 12 2020 10:49 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Edgy MD wrote: I banged in 2018. I banged a lot. Between Edgy and Ben Grimm, this place is turning into a locker room.

kcmets Feb 12 2020 11:10 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Lol, sez the guy who banged Latvia. (or was it Croatia?)

Edgy MD Feb 12 2020 12:03 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Same difference. The dude terrorized the whole Baltic. Even Danish kids are starting to look suspiciously Korean.

Frayed Knot Feb 14 2020 01:17 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

And we have our JD Davis apology: “Looking back as a young guy, being exposed to that in 2017 and looking back and getting a full season now, of course it's regrettable and you feel ashamed to be a part of it.” [at the time] I didn't really think much of the [sign-stealing], going up there fresh and being part of a major league clubhouse and a major league guy, ... Maybe what they did was the norm. I had no idea. I had never been in another big-league clubhouse to compare the two. Looking back on the details of it, it's terrible. It's terrible for the game of baseball. Anybody who gets crowned the World Series champion, it's not only a big deal, but it's a big deal for the baseball world and how they have earned it and they have gone through the 162 games and through the playoffs. To have the incident is very unfortunate.” https://nypost.com/2020/02/14/j-d-davis-now-ashamed-of-role-in-astros-cheating-scandal/

41Forever Feb 14 2020 01:20 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Frayed Knot wrote: And we have our JD Davis apology: “Looking back as a young guy, being exposed to that in 2017 and looking back and getting a full season now, of course it's regrettable and you feel ashamed to be a part of it.” [at the time] I didn't really think much of the [sign-stealing], going up there fresh and being part of a major league clubhouse and a major league guy, ... Maybe what they did was the norm. I had no idea. I had never been in another big-league clubhouse to compare the two. Looking back on the details of it, it's terrible. It's terrible for the game of baseball. Anybody who gets crowned the World Series champion, it's not only a big deal, but it's a big deal for the baseball world and how they have earned it and they have gone through the 162 games and through the playoffs. To have the incident is very unfortunate.” https://nypost.com/2020/02/14/j-d-davis-now-ashamed-of-role-in-astros-cheating-scandal/ He did a better job than the Astros' owner did.

Frayed Knot Feb 14 2020 01:31 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Flexing naked in front of the reporters while shouting; 'Fuck sign stealing, here's how I got all my hits: Check out the Gun Show', would have been a better job than what Jim Crane did.

Edgy MD Feb 14 2020 01:34 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

God damn, that would be great. Especially if it was Lucas Duda doing it.

Ceetar Feb 14 2020 01:58 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

I kinda want someone to be all "I don't know why they didn't just change their signs." shrug and walk away.

kcmets Feb 14 2020 02:36 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Signage probably deserves it's own thread. I didn't play HS ball but I did pitch into the summer between 10-11th grade in an organized rec league. 1 was fastball, 2 was curve and 3 was off-speed or change-up. What changed inning to inning or several times a game was the 'indicator'. The in- dicator directly preceded the pitch to be thrown. For example, if the indicator was the catcher closing his mitt and threw down 1-2-1-closed mitt-2-1-3 he was calling for the curve. It wasn't rocket science. Same thing for the third base coach. If the steal sign was touching his shoulder and the indicator was fixing his cap and he grabbed his crotch fixed his cap touched his shoulder and the pulled his shorts out of his crack the steal was on.

Frayed Knot Feb 14 2020 02:51 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

The other team could change their signs all they wanted but the thing about real-time video is that you can then pick up the new ones in no time flat. Stealing signs isn't the crime here, if you can naked eye your way into their code then matzoh tov. The illegal part is the installation of an electronic spy system which gives the home team a Yuge advantage over the road dudes in deciphering what the other side is planning.

kcmets Feb 14 2020 03:31 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Frayed Knot wrote: Stealing signs isn't the crime here, if you can naked eye your way into their code then matzoh tov. The illegal part is the installation of an electronic spy system which gives the home team a Yuge advantage over the road dudes in deciphering what the other side is planning. Of course, I was just saying, and I doubt the underlying stuff hasn't changed much. I would think the signage should be able to overcome the cheating. Hell, how hard would it be to change the indicator every pitch?

Ceetar Feb 14 2020 05:05 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Frayed Knot wrote: The other team could change their signs all they wanted but the thing about real-time video is that you can then pick up the new ones in no time flat. Stealing signs isn't the crime here, if you can naked eye your way into their code then matzoh tov. The illegal part is the installation of an electronic spy system which gives the home team a Yuge advantage over the road dudes in deciphering what the other side is planning. nobody installed an electric spy system. They stole signs on the road too, it just wasn't always as easy to communicate it because they couldn't control where the replay room was. And if you can pick up the new ones in no time flat they weren't particularly encoded were they? [TWEET]https://twitter.com/PiranhaRGJ/status/1228019707065835521[/TWEET]

Frayed Knot Feb 14 2020 05:39 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

nobody installed an electric spy system. Cameras trained on the catcher's signals which are then relayed to a monitor next to the dugout which are then relayed to the batter via various means (maybe even electronically) all in real time is SPECIFICALLY an electronic spy system! They stole signs on the road too, Not via cameras that the home team didn't have access to they didn't. And if you can pick up the new ones in no time flat they weren't particularly encoded were they? There's only so much one can "encode" with a flash of fingers and when you have a camera trained on those fingers for every pitch not only of that game but for all the previous games vs that team then, yes, it's not too hard to figure out what pitch corresponds to each new pitch.

And that embedded tweet -- from whoever the hell Richard G. Johnson is -- is fucking meaningless as no one is arguing that the stealing of signs itself is illegal. I only wish I had taken the time

to say that in my previous post so as to make my point clearer ... Oh wait, I did precisely that!!!

Ceetar Feb 14 2020 08:38 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Where does it say anywhere that there were cameras no one else had access to? There are a zillion ways to encode a sign, even under the circumstances. So many in fact, that the reports say the Astros stopped because other teams had caught on and were doing just that!

Frayed Knot Feb 15 2020 02:24 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Where does it say anywhere that there were cameras no one else had access to? So how would that work I wonder? ... Maybe the GM contacts his counterpart in advance of their visit with an offer to share: Hey pal, looking forward to your three game series at our place this weekend. Maybe we can grab a beer after one of the games. Anyway, just dropping this email to let you know that we'll be having a camera aimed at your catcher's crotch all series long. And not the regular local network cam but the zoom lens one for picking up details ... y'know, like the ones Manfred said we are strictly forbidden from using. But in the interest of fair play we'd like to extend access of it to your team as well. You'll have to route some lines to your own dugout since at the moment it's just routed to ours so you'd have to get here early enough on Friday to start with that. I won't be in until game time (daughter's soccer practice) but just ask for Sal in maintenance and he'll let you in. Oh, and don't let on to Verlander that we'll allowing you in on this, he gets a little prickly at times and we'd like to resign him soon. All the best.

ashie62 Feb 15 2020 04:11 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

I'm ok with a runner on second looking in and picking signs off. The gentlemans way, if you wiil.

batmagadanleadoff Feb 15 2020 04:57 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Feb 15 2020 06:04 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: Where does it say anywhere that there were cameras no one else had access to? So how would that work I wonder? ... Maybe the GM contacts his counterpart in advance of their visit with an offer to share: Hey pal, looking forward to your three game series at our place this weekend. Maybe we can grab a beer after one of the games. Anyway, just dropping this email to let you know that we'll be having a camera aimed at your catcher's crotch all series long. And not the regular local network cam but the zoom lens one for picking up details ... y'know, like the ones Manfred said we are strictly forbidden from using. But in the interest of fair play we'd like to extend access of it to your team as well. You'll have to route some lines to your own dugout since at the moment it's just routed to ours so you'd have to get here early enough on Friday to start with that. I won't be in until game time (daughter's soccer practice) but just ask for Sal in maintenance and he'll let you in. Oh, and don't let on to Verlander that we'll allowing you in on this, he gets a little prickly at times and we'd like to resign him soon. All the best. How long is this ridiculous absurd disagreement gonna go on for? The guy doesn't get that it's wrong for the home team to install cameras to steal signs which should be obvious to anyone after zero posts, let alone that it even has to be explained. After about 100 exchanges on this point, you might as well bang your head against the wall for all the convincing you think you're gonna do. He probably thinks it's OK for the visiting team to have to bat with baseballs made of iron, too.

Ceetar Feb 15 2020 05:51 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

It's shocking to me that anyone could still think they installed special cameras after all this. I know most of this is filtered through absolutely pathetic 'reporting' by supposed 'journalists' but it's just not true.

batmagadanleadoff Feb 15 2020 05:55 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Feb 15 2020 10:47 PM

OK. Then so maybe they didn't install special cameras. So then the cameras were already there. BFD! That's hardly the fucking point.

Ceetar Feb 15 2020 06:21 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

The point is that something that's 100% preventable by the 'victim' makes it real hard for me to feel like they got the short straw or something. Especially given how facilitated it was by MLB. It'd be like if they put the steroids in the clubhouse unmonitored with a big sign that says don't take these if you don't have an exemption for them.

batmagadanleadoff Feb 15 2020 06:34 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

So if it's so fucking easy to steal signs because it's the "victims" fault, then why the fuckety fuck fuck fuck would the Astros need cameras and telescopes and satellites from Mars to steal signs? I suppose you think you have the right to rob my house, too If I forgot to lock my door. Great. Now I'm debating this with you, against all instincts. I deserve it.

Frayed Knot Apr 22 2020 01:46 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

So aside from Alex Cora being, in effect, pre-fired for his role in the Red Sox version of the sign stealing scandal, MLB's investigation raps the Sox with only a suspension to the Video Replay System Operator [entire 2020 season plus post if any] and a loss of a 2nd round draft pick.

nymr83 Apr 24 2020 09:24 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Cora was, however, suspended for 2020 due to his role in the Astros scandal. MLB's findings were that a single video room operator who was helping baserunners steal signs with video (which is legal if you are looking at old video just not video from the current live game?) updated his findings with live game footage. some players knew about this but not all and nobody but him took any actual actions to further the plot. the front office and managers didnt know.

Edgy MD Jun 13 2020 09:11 PM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

More could possibly by dropping ... possibly on the Yankees (though I'm counting no chickens). Tim Daniels wrote: U.S. District Court judge Jed Rakoff ruled Friday the New York Yankees must unseal a letter they received from MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred in 2017 about findings in a sign-stealing investigation that led to an undisclosed fine. ... The plaintiffs in the case argued Manfred's letter to the Yanks will reveal a "more serious sign-stealing scheme" than what was represented in the 2017 announcement of a fine, per Drellich. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2896010-mlb-letter-to-yankees-about-alleged-sign-stealing-in-2017-ordered-to-be-unsealed?utm_source=cnn.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=editorial

MFS62 Jun 14 2020 09:07 AM Re: Astros Get the Signs of Suspension

Y'mean steroid central of past years might have actually been (gasp) cheating in the way they stole signs? Be still my heart. Later