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Who else was cheating?

41Forever Jan 17 2020 10:35 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 17 2020 11:17 AM

Black Jack McDowell says Tony LaRussa had an elaborate light and camera system with the White Sox -- and was part of Boston's front office last year. (Of course, the White Sox stuff was long before any commissioner mandates, which makes it different than the Houston situation.) [url]https://www.sportingnews.com/us/mlb/news/jack-mcdowell-80s-white-sox-tony-la-russa-cheated/fac8vh3ph8vb1dkja2jox1n10?fbclid=IwAR3cm8zXVxtP4tgH7bkggz_0TUp2ByeHdbA0f4tb6BAL0wE3jNgc2C3Eumg

Centerfield Jan 17 2020 11:16 AM Re: Wo else was cheating?

Definitely the 2015 Royals. I'm positive.

seawolf17 Jan 17 2020 11:28 AM Re: Who else was cheating?

Everyone.

whippoorwill Jan 17 2020 01:52 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

That's just it. What's the big deal? They all do it.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 17 2020 01:55 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

I remember my parents saying that during Watergate.

ashie62 Jan 17 2020 04:34 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

George Costanza

LWFS Jan 17 2020 07:43 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

=whippoorwill post_id=29989 time=1579294372 user_id=79] That's just it. What's the big deal? They all do it.

Everybody does it. Cardinals do it. Jays do it. Even the turtles in the bays do it. I mean, if nobody did it, nobody would ever have babies. Wait, what?



Stealing signs isn't actually against any MLB rules. What is baseball-illegal-- as of late-- is dugout use of technological tools to gain any competitive advantage. And unlike PEDs, the commish's office has actually delineated (and, now, carried out) potential penalties, so...

kcmets Jan 17 2020 07:49 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I remember my parents saying that during Watergate. Classic.

nymr83 Jan 17 2020 08:18 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

Who else was cheating? The Yankees - obviously!

Edgy MD Jan 17 2020 08:51 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

I really feel like something that something has occurred not unlike the initial spilling of the names of the guys who failed the initial (allegedly sealed and performed for statistical purposes only) steroid test. I mean, why was Beltran named and not everybody else? I think it's largely because he's retired and so naming him spares the league having a class of disgraced guys sprinkled through the league giving league an ongoing black eye, potentially for years to come. Also, he doesn't have the MLBPA's protection. So the Mets fired him, and there's a perfectly sound argument both for or against that move. A couple of arguments, actually. But I think something like justice would be either naming nobody or naming everybody.

Ceetar Jan 18 2020 10:16 AM Re: Who else was cheating?

=nymr83 post_id=30020 time=1579317498 user_id=54] Who else was cheating? The Yankees - obviously!

the report was more damning to the Yankees than to Carlos Beltran certainly.

seawolf17 Jan 18 2020 04:37 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

=Ceetar post_id=30048 time=1579367783 user_id=102] =nymr83 post_id=30020 time=1579317498 user_id=54] Who else was cheating? The Yankees - obviously!

the report was more damning to the Yankees than to Carlos Beltran certainly.


I kinda wonder that too. He was there between the Astros and us.

MFS62 Jan 18 2020 04:55 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

On WFAN today, the host was saying that Cee Cee has been whining publicly about how the MFYs wuz robbed because Huston had an unfair advantage.. How about all those steroid-stuffed MFY teams playing in a bandbox, fat boy? STFU! Later

Willets Point Jan 18 2020 06:19 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

The fact that sign-stealing has long been a part of the "gamesmanship" of Major League Baseball is why I think that fines, suspensions, and firings will ultimately be meaningless with an effort to address the systemic problem within the game. The narrative that's already forming that the teams that got caught are "cheaters" who didn't deserve to win and other teams are "clean" who deserved to win helps absolutely nothing.

Edgy MD Jan 19 2020 06:53 AM Re: Who else was cheating?

=Ceetar post_id=30048 time=1579367783 user_id=102] =nymr83 post_id=30020 time=1579317498 user_id=54] Who else was cheating? The Yankees - obviously!

the report was more damning to the Yankees than to Carlos Beltran certainly.


Damning but not damanaging. Sadly, the Yankees didn't lose their job.

Frayed Knot Jan 19 2020 06:57 AM Re: Who else was cheating?

Willets Point wrote: The fact that sign-stealing has long been a part of the "gamesmanship" of Major League Baseball is why I think that fines, suspensions, and firings will ultimately be meaningless with an effort to address the systemic problem within the game. The narrative that's already forming that the teams that got caught are "cheaters" who didn't deserve to win and other teams are "clean" who deserved to win helps absolutely nothing. But there is cheating and then there's CHEATING!! While the acts of trying to decipher your opponents' signs, pitcher 'tells', and other body language have long been part of the game, referring to those as 'cheating' is more symbolic than actual. If your catcher isn't hiding his signs well enough, or your third base coach's relays fall into predictable and easily outed patterns, then that's your fault rather than the fault of those who uncover them. But what Houston (and maybe Boston) did with electronic spying and illegally installed real-time monitors for the sole purpose of giving an edge which obviously isn't an option to the visiting team goes way beyond what has long been considered acceptable in the sport even before Manfred specifically warned each club against attempting any such practice. It's why the penalties were as harsh as they were (even as the initial reaction by some within the game that they weren't harsh enough) and it is what's going to taint the Astros' lone championship to date. So absent some kind of new evidence that this level of skullduggery was going on everywhere then, yeah, I am going to treat other clubs as competing 'clean' (at least in this area) and hope that the penalties leveled on Houston are a big enough scare to prevent teams from trying something like this in the future. In the meantime, dugout detectives are still welcome in my world.

Johnny Lunchbucket Jan 19 2020 07:21 AM Re: Who else was cheating?

You can see a problematic irony for MLB in light of pushing robot umps, instant replay and profiting from pitchfx and other information gleaned from technology. It's a different thing but disruptive and in retrospect you could see this coming

Ceetar Jan 19 2020 07:26 AM Re: Who else was cheating?

Frayed Knot wrote: Willets Point wrote: The fact that sign-stealing has long been a part of the "gamesmanship" of Major League Baseball is why I think that fines, suspensions, and firings will ultimately be meaningless with an effort to address the systemic problem within the game. The narrative that's already forming that the teams that got caught are "cheaters" who didn't deserve to win and other teams are "clean" who deserved to win helps absolutely nothing. But what Houston (and maybe Boston) did with electronic spying and illegally installed real-time monitors for the sole purpose of giving an edge which obviously isn't an option to the visiting team goes way beyond what has long been considered acceptable in the sport even before Manfred specifically warned each club against attempting any such practice. well no, not illegally installed, this all stems from MLBs dumb idea of having managers challenge calls rather than just simply getting the call right. Which I guess it is also the reason for no delay on the feed, which ALSO would've solved the issue. And because you can challenge calls on the road, you could conceivably do it on the road too, depending on your opponents placement of the CF cam (which, you know, might mean they were cheating too) And it's not simply 'stealing' it, as they were decoding them too. No one's elaborated on this, but I imagine they wouldn't have used that word for simply "haha, he put down 1 finger" and figured out what the more 'complex' (because real code would've solved this problem too!) pattern. Which is why I'm generally fine with it and think it should be totally legal, like, there are a billion avenues to resolve it both by MLB and the 'victim' team. Let it be part of the cat and mouse game and don't over legislate something. But hell, baseball is still acting like it's 1930 and has to be dragged into the future kicking and screaming.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 19 2020 08:40 AM Re: Who else was cheating?

Yeah sure. And let's not stop at electonic sign stealing. Home teams should also be allowed to install anti-matter force field ray guns aimed at the mound to slow down the visitor's pitches. It'd be neat to watch Aroldis Chapman go all out and all with the veins popping out of his neck from the effort but after all that, the ball squirts out of his hand at only 40MPH. It'd be kinda like flubber. Also, the visitors water fountain could be laced with drugs or sleeping pills to slow down the visitors although this last idea isn't so hot because after a while, they'll catch on and only drink from their own store bought sealed bottles in this perpetual game of cat and mouse and leapfrog.. If the visiting team is careless enough to get thirsty or to be in the position where they have to pitch the ball, then they deserve this, having brought it on themselves.

Frayed Knot Jan 19 2020 10:31 AM Re: Who else was cheating?

well no, not illegally installed, this all stems from MLBs dumb idea of having managers challenge calls rather than just simply getting the call right. Which I guess it is also the reason for no delay on the feed, which ALSO would've solved the issue. And because you can challenge calls on the road, you could conceivably do it on the road too, depending on your opponents placement of the CF cam (which, you know, might mean they were cheating too) The replay challenge, with which I have numerous issues, is designated to come from a specific booth and NOT one to be also displayed on a monitor next to the dugout. So, yes, Houston's system was quite illegally installed. And it's not simply 'stealing' it, as they were decoding them too. No one's elaborated on this, but I imagine they wouldn't have used that word for simply "haha, he put down 1 finger" and figured out what the more 'complex' (because real code would've solved this problem too!) pattern. I have no idea what you are saying here. The home team is installing cameras for the specific purpose of stealing signs which are otherwise not possible (or very difficult) to see in conjunction with a system for relaying them to the batter in real time, something the visiting team can't possibly have access to. Which is why I'm generally fine with it and think it should be totally legal, like, there are a billion avenues to resolve it both by MLB and the 'victim' team. Let it be part of the cat and mouse game and don't over legislate something. But hell, baseball is still acting like it's 1930 and has to be dragged into the future kicking and screaming. Absurd!

Ceetar Jan 19 2020 03:56 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

I mean, the report contradicts what you're saying, but okay. I'm saying that a lot of times the Astros weren't simply seeing 1 finger and not banging for a fastball. Sometimes they had to decipher the more 'complex' set of signs that a battery uses when say a guy's on second. I.e. the "we know the other team is probably seeing these signs and therefore we're going to give the bare minimum level of effort involved to keep them from guessing it"

Frayed Knot Jan 19 2020 05:02 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

I mean, the report contradicts what you're saying, but okay. What part? The part about how they set up cameras specifically aimed at the catcher's signals? ... No it doesn't. The part about how they had a real time monitor next to the dugout so as to immediately relay the gained knowledge to the batter? ... No it doesn't The part about how Manfred had specifically said any type of this stuff was strictly prohibited? ... No it doesn't. The part about how MLB now has (though not originally) a person overseeing each team's video replay room so as to make sure that that info isn't getting relayed to the dugout? ... No it doesn't. I'm saying that a lot of times the Astros weren't simply seeing 1 finger and not banging for a fastball. Sometimes they had to decipher the more 'complex' set of signs that a battery uses when say a guy's on second. I.e. the "we know the other team is probably seeing these signs and therefore we're going to give the bare minimum level of effort involved to keep them from guessing it" And how is that better?!? All that means is that it's stealing that clearly couldn't be done except with an illegal system set up just for that purpose. Or does the fact that the signals weren't as easy to decipher as See-Spot-Run make this stuff OK? Gee, everything I stole from you shouldn't even qualify as a crime because of the expensive and intricate security system I had to disable just to get past your front door!

Ceetar Jan 19 2020 05:45 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

Frayed Knot wrote: And how is that better?!? All that means is that it's stealing that clearly couldn't be done except with an illegal system set up just for that purpose. Or does the fact that the signals weren't as easy to decipher as See-Spot-Run make this stuff OK? Gee, everything I stole from you shouldn't even qualify as a crime because of the expensive and intricate security system I had to disable just to get past your front door! You are implying it's okay for me to bypass your security system if I simply guess a bunch of times as long as I don't use a computer program? And that it'd be basically impossible for me to get in, even with tech, if you simply used more than a 3 digit password? I'm saying if it's okay for me to sometimes bypass your security, if we're going to make that okay, might as well just make it always okay and if you use a 15 digit password and I guess it that's just good on me, but if you use a 1 digit password and I get in maybe bad on you? And you're going to get all up in arms because I used a computer to run every single digit password to get passed it? but analogies aside, if it's okay for me to decipher a sign, then it is. Either make it part of the game or outlaw it and put in electronic communication between catcher and pitcher.

Frayed Knot Jan 19 2020 06:25 PM Re: Who else was cheating? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 19 2020 06:44 PM

=Ceetar post_id=30135 time=1579481138 user_id=102] You are implying it's okay for me to bypass your security system if I simply guess a bunch of times as long as I don't use a computer program? And that it'd be basically impossible for me to get in, even with tech, if you simply used more than a 3 digit password? I'm saying if it's okay for me to sometimes bypass your security, if we're going to make that okay, might as well just make it always okay and if you use a 15 digit password and I guess it that's just good on me, but if you use a 1 digit password and I get in maybe bad on you? And you're going to get all up in arms because I used a computer to run every single digit password to get passed it?

Yeah, I'm not saying anything even slightly resembling any of that.

but analogies aside, if it's okay for me to decipher a sign, then it is. Either make it part of the game or outlaw it and put in electronic communication between catcher and pitcher.

If you can't see the difference between noticing signs, tendencies, or body language from the field vs setting up a built-in electronic surveillance system that gives your side **AND ONLY YOUR

SIDE** access to signals and signs plus the ability to send that knowledge to the bench in real time during a game where the rules are supposed to favor neither side then I'm going to have to

continue this conversation with someone less dense.

And just to emphasize a point which seems to have gotten lost in your spaghetti-shaped logic: THEY KNEW SUCH A SYSTEM WAS ILLEGAL BEFORE THEY SET IT UP YET WENT AND DID IT ANYWAY!!!!

And then they got caught and now they're getting properly fucked for it.

kcmets Jan 19 2020 06:36 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

Everyone change all their passwords to 125 bits or better.

Edgy MD Jan 19 2020 07:53 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

but analogies aside, ... Thank God.

kcmets Jan 19 2020 08:00 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

Why is it more and more the 'quoted' poster isn't showing up but just "'s ?

Edgy MD Jan 19 2020 08:15 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

=kcmets post_id=30144 time=1579489230 user_id=53] Why is it more and more the 'quoted' poster isn't showing up but just "'s ?

As for me, I took ceets' quote from Frayed Knot's post. And in deleting extraneous stuff, left it looking like I was quoting FK.



That was inaccurate, so I deleted FK's name from it. I didn't add ceets' name because I'm a fat, lazy ass.

kcmets Jan 19 2020 08:23 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

I was just worrying the quote thing wasn't working. The quote thing on a phone or tablet (as opposed to a computer) is a little cumbersome. I'm all thumbs.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 19 2020 09:33 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

Also, the home team should be allowed to bug the visitors' dugout. And locker room. This would work real good and yield much more info in the NFL if the visitors' football lockers were bugged. Hers"s something else that's long overdue: So if the visiting team's baserunner is rounding third and it looks like he's definitely about to score, the home team should be allowed to have a sharpshooter in their dugout who would shoot down the runner before he scores. The best part of this idea which I only thought of just now on the fly as I was writing this very sentence is that the bullets don't even have to be real. You don't have to kill the baserunner. Just stun him to slow him down or stop him until he could be tagged out. This is an ANALOGY! A person has the right to kill in self defense if their own life is threatened so if you can shoot someone in that situation, you might as well be able to shoot anyone anytime. Plus, you wouldn't have to distinguish between deadly force in self defense and any old random arbitrary killing. So think how much less a strain there'd be on our courts. Also, if you're allowed to steal baseball signs, you should be allowed to steal whatever you want from a stranger's house. That's another ANALOGY.

nymr83 Jan 20 2020 05:37 PM Re: Who else was cheating?

ULTIMATE BASEBALL with old American Gladiator props between the bases? Joust with the catcher to score before you get tagged out! We could be on to something!