Master Index of Archived Threads


Columbus

Edgy MD Jun 19 2020 08:00 AM

Part of the response to our current reconsideration of the nation's racist legacy is the backing off of honors to Christopher Columbus, alleged European discoverer of the Americas and alleged guy who brought a lot of shit to the Americas. Columbus, Ohio, has removed the statue of Christopher Columbus from City Hall, which is interesting in that it triggers the next question: "If the statue is a problem, what's with the name of your city?" One factor involved is that the raising up of Columbus as an American icon was part of a (successful) campaign by Italian-Americans to have themselves recognized as fully American. "How can we be less American than you when it was one of us that found the place? Well, he found Puerto Rico, and eventually bumped into the the Bahamas, but still." Another factor is that the name is everywhere. Mets connections include: [list] [*]The city name on the uniform of their Class A South Atlantic League affiliate. [*]The last name of everybody's favorite sexy Dominican starting pitcher/slugger. [/list] Dubious Mets connections include: [list] [*]The name of the circle where you transfer from local to express service on the West Side. [*]The name of the district that their divisional rivals (and current defending MLB champions) represent. [*]The home country of Dilson Herrera. [*]The alma mater of Gary Cohen, Mike Baxter, and Frank Seminara. [/list]

MFS62 Jun 19 2020 08:08 AM Re: Columbus

I say keep Columbus but stop playing the Marco Polo game in swimming pools. (Or something just as silly) Later

Frayed Knot Jun 19 2020 01:13 PM Re: Columbus

Columbus was a ship's captain, and a good one by all accounts. What he wasn't, according to several books I've read on him, was a very good administrator. He was the best man to lead them to the islands they found (even if not the specific ones he was looking for) but not necessarily the one you'd want running things in those places where they decided to stay and set up shop. On the other hand, HE never stayed very long. He wound up making four trips back and forth and died not long after the final one so mostly he appointed others to head up their new digs ... and some of them were pretty awful, both in general and to the locals. And, yes, a large chunk of the lionization was the Italian-American thing (even though there was no 'Italy' at the time and ol' Chris would have referred to himself as Genovese while, of course, sailing under a Spanish flag) and that's likely where most of the pushback will come from as well. But a large part of what's driving this anti-Columbus stuff specifically is revisionist history. Columbus brought the first European ships here (or at least the first in nearly 500 years) after which things were never the same for the natives even though virtually all of it is on account of what followed him rather than he himself. But he was the first so the blame falls on him (I read a piece the other day calling him a "brutal, hateful" person although it was backed by nothing) while we get to pretend that things would have turned out differently had he never set sail and the two western hemisphere continents would have remained the peaceful paradise that they were (which they weren't) and would be better off today (highly doubtful).

Ceetar Jun 19 2020 01:31 PM Re: Columbus

Christopher Columbus wrote: These people are very simple as regards the u.se of arms, as your Highnesses will .sec [sic] from the seven that I caused to be taken, to bring home and learn our language and return; unless your Highnesses should order them all to be brought to Castile, or to be kept as captives on the same island; for with fifty men they can all be subjugated and made to do what is required of them…

Lefty Specialist Jun 19 2020 01:43 PM Re: Columbus

Columbus was the tip of the spear. The Spanish military Conquistadores who followed him were far more heinous.

ashie62 Jun 19 2020 01:51 PM Re: Columbus

Columbus day is simply Italian American day to me. I have no problem with it

Edgy MD Jun 19 2020 02:13 PM Re: Columbus

Sure. But since others might, would it bother you if Italian-American Day was simply called "Italian-American Day" or "LaGuardia Day" or "Francesco Vigo Day" or "Cabrini Day"? I'm asking because the conversation is coming whether we want it to or not. And yeah, the explorer was an advocate for subjugation, whether we see it necessary to underscore that or not. Of course, a lot of folks were. And the story of the American natives, at least in the future United States, was more one of persecution and annihilation (both passive and active) than of subjugation and enslavement. Personally, I'd rather change the name of Fort Tryon Park than Columbus Circle. But I'm sure not chaining myself to the monument if folks want to take it down.

kcmets Jun 19 2020 03:29 PM Re: Columbus

I dunno, I understand there's tons of outrage but common-sense wise there's plenty to fix in the present. After that we can work our way back slowly to 1492 or whenev...

ashie62 Jun 19 2020 07:22 PM Re: Columbus

Edgy MD wrote: Sure. But since others might, would it bother you if Italian-American Day was simply called "Italian-American Day" or "LaGuardia Day" or "Francesco Vigo Day" or "Cabrini Day"? I'm asking because the conversation is coming whether we want it to or not. And yeah, the explorer was an advocate for subjugation, whether we see it necessary to underscore that or not. Of course, a lot of folks were. And the story of the American natives, at least in the future United States, was more one of persecution and annihilation (both passive and active) than of subjugation and enslavement. Personally, I'd rather change the name of Fort Tryon Park than Columbus Circle. But I'm sure not chaining myself to the monument if folks want to take it down. Italian American Day is fine St Paddy's is Irish American day to me and Ashie1 also although I don't know if we called it such. I'd like to see it as a paid day off holiday Yes, the conversation is coming and has landed. It just feels like their is an almost blind effort to correct USA history in a speedy shortsighted way. I too, would like to correct problems in the present I do feel a vibe of a majority of Americans calling BS on Trump Defeating Trump is the only proactive cause I have energy for. I do believe Biden will win, handily.