Master Index of Archived Threads


Joe Morgan, 1943–2020

smg58 Oct 12 2020 09:30 AM

[url]https://www.sfchronicle.com/sports/article/Hall-of-Famer-Joe-Morgan-one-of-Oakland-s-15639236.php Because the last couple of weeks have not been bad enough for Hall of Famers, Joe Morgan.

Frayed Knot Oct 12 2020 10:20 AM Re: Baseball Passings 2020

Damn!! What's that now, five over about a six week span? Seaver, Gibson Brock, Ford, Mogan, ...

cal sharpie Oct 12 2020 10:30 AM Re: Baseball Passings 2020

Ad Al Kaline a few months ago and you surely have a record for most HOF passings in one year.

smg58 Oct 12 2020 10:32 AM Re: Baseball Passings 2020

Morgan in 75 and 76 was as complete a player (power, speed, defense, average, walks) as I can remember in my lifetime.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 12 2020 10:42 AM Re: Baseball Passings 2020

=smg58 post_id=48422 time=1602520370 user_id=62] Morgan in 75 and 76 was as complete a player (power, speed, defense, average, walks) as I can remember in my lifetime.

Morgan should've won the MVP in '74, too. Steve Garvey? He probably wasn't even the 4th best player on his own team. What a mistake that was.

Benjamin Grimm Oct 12 2020 10:55 AM Re: Baseball Passings 2020

cal sharpie wrote: Ad Al Kaline a few months ago and you surely have a record for most HOF passings in one year. There were seven Hall of Famers who died in 1972: Roberto Clemente Dave Bancroft George Weiss Jackie Robinson Zack Wheat Gabby Hartnett Pie Traynor

cal sharpie Oct 12 2020 11:18 AM Re: Baseball Passings 2020

OK, most HOF passings in 48 years. Still a lot.

seawolf17 Oct 12 2020 11:33 AM Re: Baseball Passings 2020

And nothing against Dave Bancroft and/or Zack Wheat, but Seaver/Gibson/Brock/Whitey/Morgan is not just a HOF group, but an A-List Hall of Fame Group. Morgan was a fantastic player, but it needs to be said - a shit broadcaster.

MFS62 Oct 12 2020 12:22 PM Re: Baseball Passings 2020

Morgan was a fantastic player, but it needs to be said - a shit broadcaster. As the article said, he was against the "new" stats, and would say it on the broadcasts. Then he wrote a book, "Baseball for Dummies" (one of the ... For Dummies series). When it came out, I thought it was his autobiography. RIP Joe. You were a great player to watch. Later

Johnny Lunchbucket Oct 12 2020 02:18 PM Re: Baseball Passings 2020

Morgan in 75 and 76 was as complete a player (power, speed, defense, average, walks) as I can remember in my lifetime. Yup. I'll also say a lot of smartassy mom's-basement dwellers devoted too much energy to trying to get him fired from ESPN. Morgan had an old-school perspective and said dumb things he shouldn't have on-air ("billy Beane shouldn't have written that book") but I thought the Miller-Morgan team was the best SNB combo ever as far as companionship on national telecasts.

G-Fafif Oct 12 2020 02:20 PM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020 Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 12 2020 06:42 PM

On September 27, 1963, Morgan was part of the all-rookie lineup the Colt .45s threw at the Mets in Houston (Jerry Grote caught; Rusty Staub played first). Al Jackson beat the mosquito-bitten kids, 10-3, though the 20-year-old second baseman went 2-for-5 with his first career triple. On October 10, 1973, Morgan faced Jerry Koosman with a runner on first with one out and grounded into a 3-6-3 double play in Game Three of the Mets-Reds NLCS. In doing so, he ended the top of the fifth inning but inadvertently sparked a melee, as Pete Rose barreled violently into Bud Harrelson; a fight for the ages broke out and Shea exploded with eternal animus for Rose. On September 6, 1983, Morgan batted leadoff as top Mets prospect Ron Darling made his major league debut against the Phillies, striking out. Rose and Mike Schmidt were the rest of Ronnie's first-inning gauntlet. Darling retired the trio in order. There's a Forrest Gump feel to the way Joe Morgan's journey intertwined with that of the Mets, but, considering Morgan's stature in the game, he was the icon in this Gumpian framework.

whippoorwill Oct 12 2020 02:24 PM Re: Baseball Passings 2020

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Morgan in 75 and 76 was as complete a player (power, speed, defense, average, walks) as I can remember in my lifetime. Yup. I'll also say a lot of smartassy mom's-basement dwellers devoted too much energy to trying to get him fired from ESPN. Morgan had an old-school perspective and said dumb things he shouldn't have on-air ("billy Beane shouldn't have written that book") but I thought the Miller-Morgan team was the best SNB combo ever as far as companionship on national telecasts. LOved those two together

ashie62 Oct 12 2020 02:51 PM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020

I hope Sandy Koufax is well. Joe Morgan, we miss you already.

Frayed Knot Oct 12 2020 03:03 PM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020

And the kicker with Morgan and his whole rejection of 'new age' stats and all, is that the stats hounds LOVED Morgan the player. Fans who were fans of more traditional metrics back in the day were likely to view Rose as the better player. But if offered a clone of those two where you'd be guaranteed a replica of their actual careers, I'd grab Little Joe over Crazy Pete and not look back.

Chad ochoseis Oct 12 2020 03:46 PM Re: Baseball Passings 2020

Benjamin Grimm wrote: cal sharpie wrote: Ad Al Kaline a few months ago and you surely have a record for most HOF passings in one year. There were seven Hall of Famers who died in 1972: Roberto Clemente Dave Bancroft George Weiss Jackie Robinson Zack Wheat Gabby Hartnett Pie Traynor But Clemente wasn't a Hall of Famer when he died. Morgan was the best middle infielder of the past 50 years, and probably in the top three or four ever. Jackie Robinson was better. Beyond that, I dunno. I guess Honus Wagner, based on the stats. ARod, maybe, even without the chemical assistance. Who else?

MFS62 Oct 12 2020 04:05 PM Re: Baseball Passings 2020

Chad ochoseis wrote: Who else? Morgan .271/.392/.427 - .819 Jeff Kent .290/.357/.500 - .855 Later

Chad ochoseis Oct 12 2020 04:17 PM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020

Speed, defense, era, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Frayed Knot Oct 12 2020 04:21 PM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020 Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Oct 12 2020 04:24 PM

But you ned to consider also their eras. Kent came up in the early 90s as the biggest hitter decade was just getting started. Morgan was a rookie in 1963, right as the most dominant pitching years were ahead. That's why the OPS+ numbers favor JM. Morgan was also the better fielder and runner - by a lot. oe: long-winded version of what Chad said Also Jackie spent a chunk of his career playing 1st base. Also didn't have the length of career compared to Joe (not his fault of course)

Edgy MD Oct 12 2020 04:23 PM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020

Morgan is the best second baseman in my book. I wouldn't place Jeff Kent in the picture. I'd put him about 20th. Heck, I'd put Chase Utley ahead of him. I can think of three other secondbasemen, just among those who played for the Mets, who I'd put ahead of him.

Frayed Knot Oct 12 2020 04:39 PM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020

Another thing Morgan had to do, as a young player, was convince people he could play the infield. The pervailing wisdom back in the day was that those with dark skin belonged out in the OF chasing down flies.

vtmet7 Oct 12 2020 04:47 PM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020

Someone in the "Old Images of Baseball" Facebook group that Willie Mays is now the oldest living Hall of Fame baseball player...don't know if it's true, but... I remember growing up and whenever I batted lefty in batting practice (but not in an actual Little League game), I would either do the Joe Morgan arm flap, or the Willie Stargell windmill...

Frayed Knot Oct 12 2020 06:34 PM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020

Someone in the "Old Images of Baseball" Facebook group that Willie Mays is now the oldest living Hall of Fame baseball player...don't know if it's true, but... Tommy Lasorda, in as a manager but not as a player, is now the only living H-o-F'er older than Willie. Ford had been the oldest.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 12 2020 06:50 PM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020

Frayed Knot wrote: But you ned to consider also their eras. Kent came up in the early 90s as the biggest hitter decade was just getting started. Morgan was a rookie in 1963, right as the most dominant pitching years were ahead. That's why the OPS+ numbers favor JM. Morgan was also the better fielder and runner - by a lot. Also, Morgan played a nice chunk of his career in The Astrodome, the absolute most brutal offense-suppressing park in modern baseball history, if not all of bsaeball history. And from his earliest playing days in Houston, in the pitching-dominant 60s, he was a walking machine -- when walks were grossly underappreciated. It's no coincidence that statistically, his career exploded as soon as he left Houston.

Edgy MD Oct 12 2020 07:20 PM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020

Man, I loved his career, but I never really considered that he could have won five straight MVPs.

batmagadanleadoff Oct 13 2020 07:51 AM Re: Baseball Passings 2020

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=48423 time=1602520928 user_id=68] =smg58 post_id=48422 time=1602520370 user_id=62] Morgan in 75 and 76 was as complete a player (power, speed, defense, average, walks) as I can remember in my lifetime.

Morgan should've won the MVP in '74, too. Steve Garvey? He probably wasn't even the 4th best player on his own team. What a mistake that was.


You could make a pretty good case for Mike Schmidt, too, for 1974 NL MVP.

Edgy MD Oct 13 2020 08:10 AM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020

The truth is that many or most retrospective looks at contemporary assessments of Steve Garvey could include the sentence "What a mistake that was." He was a really interesting player, and Hernandez seems to think of him as his superior, but he totally had observers flim-flammed into thinking he was something he wasn't.

MFS62 Oct 13 2020 08:13 AM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020

Jim Bouton wrote this when with the Houston Astros in 1969, in Ball Four, and when Morgan was his teammate: Norm Miller was doing the broadcast bit in the fourth inning when Joe Morgan came back to the dugout after missing a big curveball for strike three. "Joe, Joe Morgan, may I have a word with you?" "Sure, Norm, how's it going?" "Fine, Joe, fine. We wanted to ask you about that pitch you missed. What was it?" "Norm, that was a motherfucking curve." "Can you tell our listeners, Joe, what's the difference between a regular curve and a motherfucking curve?" "Well, Norm, your regular curve has a lot of spin on it and you can recognize it real early. It breaks down a little bit, and out. Now, your motherfucker, that's different. It comes in harder, looks like a fastball. Then all of a sudden it rolls off the top of the table and before you know it, it's motherfucking strike three." "Thank you very much, Joe Morgan." Later

batmagadanleadoff Oct 13 2020 08:25 AM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020

Edgy MD wrote: The truth is that many or most retrospective looks at contemporary assessments of Steve Garvey could include the sentence "What a mistake that was." He was a really interesting player, and Hernandez seems to think of him as his superior, but he totally had observers flim-flammed into thinking he was something he wasn't. Garvey was the first player I think I really hated. Well, him and Pete Rose - Rose for obvious reasons if you were a Mets fan in those days. But Garvey, I was onto his statistical overratedness - but I also thought he was a phony, carefully cultivating his public image. Garvey had a very high fielding percentage -- but a below average fielding range. I remember reading an article in those days about Garvey's teammates criticizing Garvey for not going all out on tough grounders, supposedly for fear of making an error, in order to protect his fielding percentage. This resonated with me very much, as I determined to myself that the quotes were credible and an accurate description of what was going on.

Edgy MD Oct 13 2020 09:10 AM Re: Joe Morgan, 1943–2020

And that may well have been before he had baseball's greatest booster in Tommy Lasorda.