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I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2020 10:14 AM

The Outsiders: No. 22, Keith Hernandez https://theathletic.com/2276406/2020/12/23/the-outsiders-no-22-keith-hernandez/ Joe Posnanski counts down the best 100 MLB'ers not in the Hall of Fame. I suppose Barry Bonds will get the #1 spot. Anyways, Joe's up to #22 today and the featured non Hall-of-Famer is Keith Hernandez. Other Mets that made Joe's list: Dwight Gooden, Bret Saberhagen, Johan Santana and John Olerud.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2020 10:20 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Bobby Abreu also made Joe's list. Easy to forget he was a Met.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2020 10:40 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Jerry Koosman and Willie Randolph strike me as two guys who should be in the Hot 100 but don't belong in any Top 20. Rusty Staub, too, and maybe Tug McGraw.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2020 10:52 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Edgy MD wrote: Jerry Koosman and Willie Randolph strike me as two guys who should be in the Hot 100 but don't belong in any Top 20. Rusty Staub, too, and maybe Tug McGraw. I think Randolph made the list. I'll check.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2020 10:54 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Edgy MD wrote: Jerry Koosman and Willie Randolph strike me as two guys who should be in the Hot 100 but don't belong in any Top 20. Rusty Staub, too, and maybe Tug McGraw. I think Randolph made the list. I'll check. Yep.

G-Fafif Dec 23 2020 10:55 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

New York belonged to Donnie Baseball. Pos, who grew up in an American League town in the Midwest, stumbled here. Otherwise his advocacy is appreciated.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2020 10:56 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

David Cone, too.

metsmarathon Dec 23 2020 10:59 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

gah, was just gonna suggest cone.... As a non-met, kenny lofton has gotta be one of the highest-ranked players lacking an asterisk.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2020 11:01 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Gary Sheffield's #24, Orel Hershiser's #81.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 23 2020 11:07 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Edgy MD wrote: ... and maybe Tug McGraw. The lowest ranked reliever on Posnanski's list (#67) is Dan Quisenberry.

bmfc1 Dec 23 2020 11:08 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

It was very thoughtful to write about Keith on Festivus.

Edgy MD Dec 23 2020 11:58 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

=G-Fafif post_id=52696 time=1608746118 user_id=55] New York belonged to Donnie Baseball. Pos, who grew up in an American League town in the Midwest, stumbled here. Otherwise his advocacy is appreciated.

I thought Cardwell was from the Carolinas.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 26 2020 08:18 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Gil Hodges isn't on the list. Will he be the highest ranked one-time Met?

DocTee Dec 27 2020 05:34 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

For all the love Keith gets, he's not even the best first-baseman of his era to be overlooked by the HOF: check out Cecil Cooper.

DocTee Dec 27 2020 05:35 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

For all the love Keith gets, he's not even the best first-baseman of his era to be overlooked by the HOF: check out Cecil Cooper.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 27 2020 05:52 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

=DocTee post_id=52827 time=1609115653 user_id=85] For all the love Keith gets, he's not even the best first-baseman of his era to be overlooked by the HOF: check out Cecil Cooper.

Don't see it. 60 lifetime bWAR for Keith plus an MVP and a runner-up MVP vs. 36 lifetime bWAR for CC. Not to mention that Keith reinvented 1st base, is the best defensive 1st baseman in baseball history and won the Gold Glove for 11 straight seasons.

Edgy MD Dec 27 2020 07:48 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Others I'd put ahead of Coop include Jack Clark, Al Oliver, Don Mattingly, Darrell Evans, and maybe Steve Garvey. And I like Cecil. I'd probably put him ahead of Richie Hebner or Bill Buckner. Don Baylor and Chris Chambliss too.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 27 2020 10:00 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

1st basemen on Po's Outsiders list (so far): 93 - Darrell Evans (mainly a third baseman) 92 - Steve Garvey 89 - Al Oliver (but he played 1b mainly at the tail end of his career) 87 - Lance Berkman (see Al Oliver comment) 80 - Will Clark 72 - John Olerud 53 - Don Mattingly 32 - Rafael Palmeiro 23 - Fred McGriff 22 - Keith Hernandez (Po sez Keith's career was better than modern 1st basemen HOF'ers Tony Perez and Orlando Cepeda). MIA (for now) Dick Allen Gil Hodges

batmagadanleadoff Dec 27 2020 10:22 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=52842 time=1609131613 user_id=68] 1st basemen on Po's Outsiders list (so far): 93 - Darrell Evans (mainly a third baseman) 92 - Steve Garvey 89 - Al Oliver (but he played 1b mainly at the tail end of his career) 87 - Lance Berkman (see Al Oliver comment) 80 - Will Clark 72 - John Olerud 53 - Don Mattingly 32 - Rafael Palmeiro 23 - Fred McGriff 22 - Keith Hernandez (Po sez Keith's career was better than modern 1st basemen HOF'ers Tony Perez and Orlando Cepeda). MIA (for now) Dick Allen Gil Hodges

So I'm checking out Gil's stats and starting to think that if he hasn't made Po's list by now, he might not make it at all. TBD

Edgy MD Dec 27 2020 10:36 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

An important part of the Hodges argument is combining the managing and playing careers into one legacy. I don't know if Posnanski is doing that.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 28 2020 12:13 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Edgy MD wrote: An important part of the Hodges argument is combining the managing and playing careers into one legacy. I don't know if Posnanski is doing that. I think it's playing career only. Three more: Albert Pujols, Mark McGwire and Joey Votto.

G-Fafif Dec 28 2020 12:58 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Joe Posnanski's criteria: There are 50 non-Hall of Famers — fifty of them, and again, I'm not even including active players or players who have not yet come up on the ballot — who have more Wins Above Average than any of the bottom 100 Hall of Famers. Many people will talk about, say, this year's ballot entry Mark Buehrle as a very good pitcher but not quite a Hall of Famer. That may be so. But he is one of the 50 I'm talking about. If Buehrle was elected to the Hall of Fame, he would immediately have a viable argument of being better than 100 players already in the Hall of Fame. We just don't realize how many incredible players are not in the Hall of Fame … or at least, I didn't realize it. So I decided to count down the 100 greatest players who are outside the Hall. I'm going to explain the countdown here, but first let me define terms: I am only including players on this list who could be elected into the Hall of Fame tomorrow. In my original list, I included all players, including active players and those who are waiting to get on the Hall of Fame ballot. I'll rank a few of those below to get us warmed up. And the ranking is not based solely on the player's greatness. No, I am ranking them in the order that I would vote them into the Hall of Fame. As you probably know, the Baseball Writers are asked to consider every player based on five characteristics: Playing ability Integrity Sportsmanship Character Contribution to team(s) on which they played. There has been a lot of controversy about the Hall of Fame character clause. The bottom four categories — integrity, sportsmanship, character, team contributions — have mostly been used to disqualify or attempt to disqualify players. But I don't think that was ever the entire point. I think the point was for Hall of Fame voters to be open-minded about greatness, to consider players who not only were great on the field but also were a credit to baseball, players who made the game better, players who brought color and life and teamwork and leadership to the sport. I have tried to think about all that in these rankings. But, of course, the most important quality by far is “playing ability.” I try not to forget that. https://theathletic.com/2202108/2020/11/27/the-outsiders-hall-of-fame-top-100/?source=user_shared_article

DocTee Dec 28 2020 06:13 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Cooper and Keith are pretty damn close. Each played parts of 17 years, most of which overlapped. In about 200 fewer games, Cooper has more HR (241-162), RBI (1125-1071) and a higher BA (.298 -.296). They have they same number of top 5 MVP finishes (KH has the one win, of course) and Cooper has three times as many All Star appearances (15-5). Cooper has fewer Gold Gloves, naturally (11-2) but was no defensive slouch. He stole more bases, but had fewer runs scored. Keith bests him in OPS (.821 to .803), and if you factor in integrity, sportsmanship and character, well....Cooper never testified at the Pittsburgh drug trial. If Keith deserves the HoF, and he does, than Cooper does too. Dale Murphy, as well.

Edgy MD Dec 28 2020 07:56 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Walks. Lots and lots of walks.

LWFS Dec 28 2020 08:42 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Best defense ever at the position and walks.

G-Fafif Dec 29 2020 09:49 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

First baseman Todd Helton is Joe's No. 19.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 04 2021 10:21 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Edgy MD wrote: Jerry Koosman and Willie Randolph strike me as two guys who should be in the Hot 100 but don't belong in any Top 20. Rusty Staub, too, and maybe Tug McGraw. Still no Tug. (And I ain't holdin' my breath for that.) But Billy Wagner checks in today at #17 - the highest ranked one-time Met, so far.

nymr83 Jan 04 2021 05:45 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Edgy MD wrote: Jerry Koosman and Willie Randolph strike me as two guys who should be in the Hot 100 but don't belong in any Top 20. Rusty Staub, too, and maybe Tug McGraw. Still no Tug. (And I ain't holdin' my breath for that.) But Billy Wagner checks in today at #17 - the highest ranked one-time Met, so far. you'd have to think the list goes something like Bonds, Clemens, Rose, Shoeless Joe Jackson? so you have about 12-13 spots left before it gets obvious - are there any potential Mets left?

Edgy MD Jan 04 2021 07:47 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Just spitballing, but ... Hodges, Frank Viola, Tony Fernandez, Bobby Bonilla, Vince Coleman, Rusty Staub, David Cone, Mickey Lolich, Carlos Baerga, Mike Torrez, Ken Boyer, Jeff Kent ... stop me before I hurt somebody.

nymr83 Jan 04 2021 08:33 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Cone already made the list as did Kent. I can't imagine most of those guys have anything resembling a legit hall of fame case. Bonilla is the only maybe, but I'd have to think there is no way he's be the top 16 not yet revealed

batmagadanleadoff Jan 04 2021 08:56 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Edgy MD wrote: Jerry Koosman and Willie Randolph strike me as two guys who should be in the Hot 100 but don't belong in any Top 20. Rusty Staub, too, and maybe Tug McGraw. Still no Tug. (And I ain't holdin' my breath for that.) But Billy Wagner checks in today at #17 - the highest ranked one-time Met, so far. you'd have to think the list goes something like Bonds, Clemens, Rose, Shoeless Joe Jackson? so you have about 12-13 spots left before it gets obvious - are there any potential Mets left? I don't think either Rose or Shoeless Joe will make Joe's list. They're both banned from baseball and thus ineligible for the Hall. The list is comprised of players eligible for the Hall who are no longer active and who have failed to get in through the conventional HOF ballot. It's not clear, (at least I don't think so), whether a retired player still appearing on the conventional HOF ballot is eligible for Joe's list.

Edgy MD Jan 04 2021 10:47 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

=nymr83 post_id=53223 time=1609817608 user_id=54] Cone already made the list as did Kent. I can't imagine most of those guys have anything resembling a legit hall of fame case. Bonilla is the only maybe, but I'd have to think there is no way he's be the top 16 not yet revealed

Ken Singleton, Jesse Orosco, John Cadelaria, George Foster, Sheffield (I assume he's there already but I'm too tired to read back), Larry Bowa, Davey Johnson, Brett Fucking Butler.

nymr83 Jan 05 2021 11:15 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Sheffield is already there. None of the other guys you are naming are, in my mind, even worth much HOF discussion much less deserve to be in. I didnt even know Candelaria was a Met

batmagadanleadoff Jan 05 2021 12:37 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Kenny Lofton is #16. Mets on Joe's list: 90 - Frank Howard 88 - Willie Randolph 83 - Dwight Gooden 81 - Orel Hershiser 72 - John Olerud 41 - Bobby Abreu 39 - Jeff Kent 37 - Ken Boyer 31 - Bret Saberhagen 27 - Johan Santana 26 - David Cone 24 - Gary Sheffield 22 - Keith Hernandez 17 - Billy Wagner

Edgy MD Jan 05 2021 02:28 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

=nymr83 post_id=53250 time=1609870511 user_id=54] Sheffield is already there. None of the other guys you are naming are, in my mind, even worth much HOF discussion much less deserve to be in. I didnt even know Candelaria was a Met

Well, Ken Boyer made the list, so spitballing is sometimes effective!

Edgy MD Jan 05 2021 02:40 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Bob Friend, Kenny Rogers, Al Leiter, Robin Ventura, Mo Vaughn, Randy Myers, Moisés Alou, Frank Tanana, Julio Franco, Jeff Reardon, John Franco, Kevin Appier, Tony Phillips, Bartolo Colón, Mel Fuckin' Stottlemyre.

nymr83 Jan 05 2021 03:19 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

I'm assuming Colon counts as an active player or at least not eligible yet? He would certainly belong in the Hall of Fun

Edgy MD Jan 05 2021 04:08 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Probably not a whole lot of room in the Hall of Fun for Kenny Rogers.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 06 2021 11:31 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

#15 is a tie between Andruw Jones and Jim Edmonds.

nymr83 Jan 07 2021 11:38 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=53340 time=1609957863 user_id=68] #15 is a tie between Andruw Jones and Jim Edmonds.

add Kenny Lofton to that list for 3 very under-appreciated modern centerfielders.



I can't understand why Lofton and Edmonds aren't in.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 07 2021 12:10 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=52842 time=1609131613 user_id=68] 1st basemen on Po's Outsiders list (so far): 93 - Darrell Evans (mainly a third baseman) 92 - Steve Garvey 89 - Al Oliver (but he played 1b mainly at the tail end of his career) 87 - Lance Berkman (see Al Oliver comment) 80 - Will Clark 72 - John Olerud 53 - Don Mattingly 32 - Rafael Palmeiro 23 - Fred McGriff 22 - Keith Hernandez (Po sez Keith's career was better than modern 1st basemen HOF'ers Tony Perez and Orlando Cepeda). MIA (for now) Dick Allen Gil Hodges

First Baseman Update:



14 - Mark McGwire

batmagadanleadoff Jan 08 2021 05:51 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=53471 time=1610046622 user_id=68] =batmagadanleadoff post_id=52842 time=1609131613 user_id=68] 1st basemen on Po's Outsiders list (so far): 93 - Darrell Evans (mainly a third baseman) 92 - Steve Garvey 89 - Al Oliver (but he played 1b mainly at the tail end of his career) 87 - Lance Berkman (see Al Oliver comment) 80 - Will Clark 72 - John Olerud 53 - Don Mattingly 32 - Rafael Palmeiro 23 - Fred McGriff 22 - Keith Hernandez (Po sez Keith's career was better than modern 1st basemen HOF'ers Tony Perez and Orlando Cepeda). MIA (for now) Dick Allen Gil Hodges

First Baseman Update:



14 - Mark McGwire


Whoa! Checking in at #13.....

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Gil Hodges.

Edgy MD Jan 08 2021 08:26 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Fuck and yes.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 11 2021 05:51 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Edgy MD wrote: Jerry Koosman and Willie Randolph strike me as two guys who should be in the Hot 100 but don't belong in any Top 20. Rusty Staub, too, and maybe Tug McGraw. Still no Tug. (And I ain't holdin' my breath for that.) But Billy Wagner checks in today at #17 - the highest ranked one-time Met, so far. you'd have to think the list goes something like Bonds, Clemens, Rose, Shoeless Joe Jackson? so you have about 12-13 spots left before it gets obvious - are there any potential Mets left? I don't think either Rose or Shoeless Joe will make Joe's list. They're both banned from baseball and thus ineligible for the Hall. Beats me if I know how this is supposed to work. Shoeless Joe is #12.

Edgy MD Jan 11 2021 09:02 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

All right! I'm calling Dutch Rennert for #11.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 13 2021 06:36 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jan 14 2021 01:03 AM

Joe Posnanski writes that, off the top of his head, Ellis Valentine had the second best outfield throwing arm in baseball history. So I googled this up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQwfvNtAFyk

Edgy MD Jan 13 2021 09:24 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Who is his #1?

MFS62 Jan 13 2021 09:44 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Edgy MD wrote: Who is his #1? Clemente is tops on many lists, including mine. Later

batmagadanleadoff Jan 13 2021 02:00 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Edgy MD wrote: Who is his #1? Clemente is tops on many lists, including mine. Joe agrees.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 14 2021 05:33 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Catching up: #11 - Dale Murphy #10 - Dwight Evans #9 - Pete Rose

batmagadanleadoff Jan 15 2021 01:18 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

#8 - Curt Flood

Edgy MD Jan 15 2021 03:24 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

All three were a first baseman at some point, though only Evans would have included it on his business card. 50,000,000 Dutch Rennert Fans can't be wrong!

whippoorwill Jan 15 2021 04:11 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

I'm creeped out by Keith and his Trumpism. Has he repented?

batmagadanleadoff Jan 19 2021 06:48 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

#7 - Dick Allen #6 - Lou Whitaker

Edgy MD Jan 19 2021 07:53 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Lou Whit is totally the owner of the most ridiculous one-and-done candidacy.

metsmarathon Jan 19 2021 09:40 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

bobby grich might have an argument there, seeing as how he's the only guy on bbref's JAWS list who ranks out above the average HOFer at his position who a) is not yet enshrined b) was a one-and done c) does not have an asterisk attached to him and d) played in modern times.

Edgy MD Jan 19 2021 09:57 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

I did not know Grich got tossed over in year one. My bad. Lou Whit is the likely co-owner of the most-ridiculous one-and-done candidacy. Gun to my head, though, I'd totally go with Lou.

metsmarathon Jan 19 2021 12:25 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

yeah, i woulda gone with lou, too, but i wasn't nearly as familiar with grich. still aren't. but so sez the numbers. grich even got a slightly lower percentage of the vote than lou, too. whitaker has the higher bbrefWAR, grich has the fangraphs advantage. i think they are both quite deserving f the co-owner title. and its an ironic additional indignation to heap upon the both of them.

MFS62 Jan 19 2021 12:43 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

bobby grich might have an argument there, seeing as how he's the only guy on bbref's JAWS list who ranks out above the average HOFer at his position who a) is not yet enshrined b) was a one-and done c) does not have an asterisk attached to him and d) played in modern times. I remember discussions that centered on things like "Mazeroski is in the Hall for being the best fielding second baseman - ever, and I think Grich was just as good with the glove". That he was as good as Maz may or may not be true, but it was considered back then. Later

batmagadanleadoff Jan 19 2021 02:17 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

=MFS62 post_id=54352 time=1611085399 user_id=60] I remember discussions that centered on things like "Mazeroski is in the Hall for being the best fielding second baseman - ever....

You raise an interesting point that's been on my mind ever since I created this thread and brings us back to the topic here - Keith Hernandez -- and the best baseball players not in the HOF. Because I've been playing in my head with the idea that Keith deserves HOF induction for his felding alone. And if Maz, who couldn't hit a lick*, is in for his fielding, what does that say about Keith, who was one of baseball's best hitters during his prime?



But what's fielding, alone, worth? I agree that run scoring is as equally valuable as run prevention. They're opposite sides of the same balance sheet; But that's when comparing team offense to team run prevention. That doesn't necessarily mean that an individual player's offense is as equally valuable as his defense. And a huge chunk of run prevention comes down to the pitcher and not the defense. And of what's left, how valuable is first base defense? Not as valuable as shortstop or catcher or center field defense. Enough to warrant HOF induction on its own? I dunno. Let's ask Maz.



*Maz's highest single-season OPS+ was under 100 -- 97.

MFS62 Jan 19 2021 02:42 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

The problem is, traditional thinking was you had to be "strong up the middle" defensively, so middle infielders who mostly considered for their glove. Any offense you got was gravy. First base was an offensive position. dWAR starts first basemen out with -15, because it was where you put your slugger. Any D is a plus. But we can see first basemen saving errors (and runs), so you can't just look at their own errors. But the perception of first being an offensive position persists to this day. Bobby was not elected because he did what he was supposed to, but not as well as the voters thought. Keith wasn't elected because he didn't do what was expected, but did what was he wasn't supposed to do extremely well, and that wasn't appreciated. Later

Edgy MD Jan 19 2021 03:03 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Keith wasn't elected, to my thinking, simply because he was a contact hitter who didn't get 3,000 hits. It's a crappy reason, but that was the standard of the time, and I suspect a lot of voters didn't look too far past that. Didn't finish with a career .300 batting average either. He sure got my vote.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 19 2021 03:39 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

I thought it was the lack of HR's. The most he hit in one season was 18, and that was in 1987, a year in which the ball was juiced. His 162 game average for HR's was 13. The writers expected more power from first basemen.

Edgy MD Jan 19 2021 04:44 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Sure, but that's why I describe him as a contact hitter. If you're not a big slugger, 3,000 hits was your next best ticket. But too often, what that is really a test of is whether you can keep your legs healthy the last five years of your career. Also, stay away from the cocaine, kids.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 20 2021 07:24 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

#5 - Scott Rolen

batmagadanleadoff Jan 21 2021 08:49 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

#4 - Roger Clemens So who would rank higher than Clemens besides Barry Bonds?

metsmarathon Jan 21 2021 09:25 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

arod, maybe. but its a stretch. pujols, possibly, if he's alllowing active players. and even bigger stretches. otherwise i got nothing. is there a negro leagues player that's been grossly overlooked by the HOF? or is he holding out on, say, sadaharu oh? hmm... ichiro...?

batmagadanleadoff Jan 21 2021 09:32 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

A-Rod's not yet eligible, I don't think. He'll appear on the next HOF ballot for the first time ever. No active players. Clemens -- seven Cy Young awards!

nymr83 Jan 21 2021 09:59 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=54441 time=1611152666 user_id=68] #5 - Scott Rolen

Very deserving. His line at the end says it all - he was Vizquel but a better hitter

nymr83 Jan 21 2021 10:02 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Bonds has to be there. Oh is a good guess bit he hasnt gone international yet - would the second greatest japanese player have been somewhere on his list if Oh is eligible?

batmagadanleadoff Jan 21 2021 10:05 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

I didn't know that Japanese league only players were eligible for induction into the HOF in Cooperstown.

ashie62 Jan 21 2021 10:56 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Did not know and do not want.

metsmarathon Jan 21 2021 11:09 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

i don't know that they're NOT eligible....? has he included any negro leaguers? that's the only other pool of eligible players that i know of. or he could go super-old school and pick Jim McCormick or Tommy Bond, old deadballers who each only logged 10 years. mccormick's WAR7 was higher than clemens, though you could certainly quibble with such stats from back then. bond's was a touch lower, but still outstanding. otherwise, i'm fresh out of ideas.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 21 2021 11:25 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Anyone who is HOF eligible right now can make his list. That means no active players. He's got plenty of Negro Leaguers on his list and 19th century players, too. He's also got ineligible (banned) players on his list -- Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose. One category I'm not sure of is whether players who are still appearing on the initial HOF ballot without having fallen off that ballot are eligible for his list, but I assume no because he's named 97 players already and no one from that category has made his 100 yet.

Edgy MD Jan 21 2021 12:43 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

=metsmarathon post_id=54558 time=1611252592 user_id=83]otherwise, i'm fresh out of ideas.

I'm all for a broadening hall, but one that expands not by setting a more generous bar for MLB players, but one that looks at a wider variety of candidates: players from foreign leagues, coaches, scouts, literary figures, mascot performers, baseball clowns, surgeons, statistical innovators, ballpark architects, ambassadors, pioneers, entertainers, and groundskeepers, as well as categories that already exist but aren't really taken very seriously any more, such as umps and administrators.



I'm not necessarily arguing for a particular figure representing each of those categories, but rather suggesting that we would have some rich candidacies, illuminating discussion, and a deeper understanding of the game and its driving forces if we more seriously looked at categories such as those. And it would lend new context to the revived-twice-per-decade candidacies of those figures on the list we're reviewing here, as well as players destined to be future members of this list.



We are the Dutch Rennert Society.

metsmarathon Jan 21 2021 12:47 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

does michael jordan's nba career count? alternatively, perhaps bo jackson, by the same cross-sports accounting? apologies for not having access to the list so far. i'm really just tossing far-flung ideas at the bad ideas at the fan and hoping some of it sticks to the walls.

metsmarathon Jan 21 2021 12:48 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

by edgys accounting, i think we can all agree that mr. met should be #1.

Edgy MD Jan 21 2021 12:53 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Well, if we're admitting mascots themselves, Mister is the man, but if we're inducting mascot performers, then Ted Giannoulas has to be atop any list.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 21 2021 01:18 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Yeah, I think the San Diego Chicken and the Phillie Phanatic probably go in before Mr. Met. They're more performance oriented. Mr. Met is just an affable figure, except when he's giving the finger to someone.

ashie62 Jan 21 2021 06:37 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Mister Met, just raise that finger to the Phillie Phanatic, thank you.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 22 2021 07:57 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Well, this is unexpected. #3 - Barry Bonds

metsmarathon Jan 22 2021 08:25 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

um.... ok, stretching, and poking around on wikipedia... how about william wheaton and william tucker, of the back-in-the-day knickerbockers, who (according to wikipedia) are credited with coming up with the original rules of baseball. without them, we ain't got nothin' otherwise... uh... i'm out of ideas.

Frayed Knot Jan 22 2021 11:04 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

=metsmarathon post_id=54584 time=1611329133 user_id=83] um.... ok, stretching, and poking around on wikipedia... how about william wheaton

Well, he was good in STAND BY ME but I don't think I'd put him in Cooperstown just for that.

MFS62 Jan 22 2021 11:10 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

"Indian" Bob Johnson: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnsbo01.shtml Do the people who played in MLB during WW II get enough recognition? Later

batmagadanleadoff Jan 22 2021 11:49 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

"Indian" Bob Johnson: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnsbo01.shtml Better than Bonds and Clemens?

MFS62 Jan 22 2021 12:26 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

"Indian" Bob Johnson: https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/johnsbo01.shtml Better than Bonds and Clemens? Of course not better on talent or stats. But because they were implicated in steroids, I believe he belongs on a Hall eligibility list and they don't. Later

batmagadanleadoff Jan 25 2021 06:04 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

#2 is one of the breakout stars of Ken Burns's Baseball documentary -- Buck O'Neill.

Edgy MD Jan 25 2021 06:40 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

There we go. Ambassadors. The Dutch Rennert Society lives!

LWFS Jan 25 2021 05:56 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=54559 time=1611253552 user_id=68] Anyone who is HOF eligible right now can make his list. That means no active players. He's got plenty of Negro Leaguers on his list and 19th century players, too. He's also got ineligible (banned) players on his list -- Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose. One category I'm not sure of is whether players who are still appearing on the initial HOF ballot without having fallen off that ballot are eligible for his list, but I assume no because he's named 97 players already and no one from that category has made his 100 yet.

No Josh Gibson yet, no?

MFS62 Jan 25 2021 06:06 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Anyone who is HOF eligible right now can make his list. That means no active players. He's got plenty of Negro Leaguers on his list and 19th century players, too. He's also got ineligible (banned) players on his list -- Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose. One category I'm not sure of is whether players who are still appearing on the initial HOF ballot without having fallen off that ballot are eligible for his list, but I assume no because he's named 97 players already and no one from that category has made his 100 yet. No Josh Gibson yet, no? Gibson was elected into the Hall of Fame in 1972. https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/gibson-josh Later

LWFS Jan 25 2021 06:17 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Anyone who is HOF eligible right now can make his list. That means no active players. He's got plenty of Negro Leaguers on his list and 19th century players, too. He's also got ineligible (banned) players on his list -- Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose. One category I'm not sure of is whether players who are still appearing on the initial HOF ballot without having fallen off that ballot are eligible for his list, but I assume no because he's named 97 players already and no one from that category has made his 100 yet. No Josh Gibson yet, no? Gibson was elected into the Hall of Fame in 1972. https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/gibson-josh Later Yeah, I'm a moron.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 25 2021 06:51 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Anyone who is HOF eligible right now can make his list. That means no active players. He's got plenty of Negro Leaguers on his list and 19th century players, too. He's also got ineligible (banned) players on his list -- Shoeless Joe and Pete Rose. One category I'm not sure of is whether players who are still appearing on the initial HOF ballot without having fallen off that ballot are eligible for his list, but I assume no because he's named 97 players already and no one from that category has made his 100 yet. No Josh Gibson yet, no? Gibson was elected into the Hall of Fame in 1972. https://baseballhall.org/hall-of-famers/gibson-josh Yeah, I'm a moron. Well then, me too. Because I wasn't sure if players still appearing on the HOF ballot for the first phase of induction are eliigible for Posnanski's list. But they are. Because Bonds and Clemens are in his top 100. As are Rolen and Schilling. And several others. And speaking of the HOF, if not Po's list, fivethirtyeight.com is predicting that no players will be inducted into the HOF this year. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/dont-expect-to-see-any-players-elected-to-the-baseball-hall-of-fame-this-year/

batmagadanleadoff Jan 26 2021 05:15 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

This is getting so subjective. And the winner is .... . . . . . the MLB'er topping "the list" . . . . #1 - Minnie Minoso

Edgy MD Jan 26 2021 08:23 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Saturnino Orestes Armas Minoso. Cuban Leaguer. Negro Leaguer. Scouted by Abe Saperstein. First black White sock. Probably should have been Rookie of the Year. Probably should have won an MVP in '54. Got hit by a ton of pitches. Great ambassador. Seven-time All Star.

Edgy MD Jan 28 2021 08:09 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

It strikes me that there's nobody in the HoF who played for Seattle Pilots. It strikes me that it's really hard to make a HoF argument for anybody who played for Seattle Pilots. Tommy Davis, Skip Lockwood ... Jim Bouton might have one of the strongest cases, and it's not that strong. I could cobble together a tortuous case for Lou Pinella. He was traded near the end of Spring Training, but at least he wore the hat.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 28 2021 08:21 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Well, that obviously has pretty much everything to do with the fact that the Pilots existed for just one season, thus severely lessening the odds that they'd have a HOF'er. (Coupled with the fact that 1st year expansion teams tended to be god-awful in those days). Focus on the duration of existence instead of on the existence of the team itself. I mean, there aren't any HOF'ers from the 1969 Padres, Royals or Expos, either. (Best careers, though -- Rusty Staub, Roy Face, Joe Niekro, Lou Piniella (1969 Pilots and 1969 Royals).

Edgy MD Jan 28 2021 08:46 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Yeah, it's certainly not unexpected. I just thought it was worthy of note that there's virtually no chance that the hat will ever appear on a HoF plaque. Maury Wills was a 1969 Expo, and he spent 15 years on the BBWAA ballot, getting some solid (20–40%) support. As for the 1969 Padres, I guess the best candidates are Joe Niekro and Cito Gaston.

batmagadanleadoff Jan 28 2021 08:54 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Edgy MD wrote: I just thought it was worthy of note that there's virtually no chance that the hat will ever appear on a HoF plaque. No, but here's a close second: On my only visit to Cooperstown, there was a very prominent exhibit of all of the 1969 MLB baseball uniforms on display. They really were 1969 uniforms, as all of the jerseys had the 1969 commemorative patch (except for the Pirates top, as the Pirates were the only team not to wear that patch, which was optional, not mandatory). But anyways, there were caps on display, too. So the Pilots cap did appear in the HOF!

MFS62 Jan 28 2021 10:02 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

I'm sure that if Bouton had been elected to the HOF, he would have told them he wanted to go in as a Seattle Pilot. He was that kind of iconoclast. Later

Edgy MD Mar 13 2021 08:17 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

1920s Hollywood heartthrob Gilbert Roland, getting his Keith Hernandez on before the world had been blessed with the genuine article. https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/03/roland.jpg>

kcmets Mar 13 2021 08:43 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

That's pretty risqué for that era lol I won't ask, no I just won't...

Edgy MD Mar 13 2021 08:56 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

That's nuttin'. It's before the Hays Code. Hollywood was all risque up until 1929. https://weminoredinfilm.files.wordpress.com/2017/03/red-dust-1932-001-harlow-gable-ecstatic-embrace.jpg?w=500>

G-Fafif May 05 2021 03:06 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

The 1997 New York Mets Hall of Famer has been elected in 2021 to the St. Louis Cardinals' version.

Frayed Knot May 05 2021 03:15 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

'bout freakin' time

Edgy MD May 05 2021 04:41 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Literally dozens in the house for the mini-ceremony.

kcmets May 05 2021 04:54 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

avi wuz here

bmfc1 May 05 2021 08:33 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Frayed Knot wrote: 'bout freakin' time Has anyone from STL explained what took so long? Spite, because he helped the Mets win a Series? His drug use?

Edgy MD May 05 2021 09:27 PM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Drugging your way off a first place team and then going to a cellar-dwellar, helping turn them around, getting clean, and leading them into a bitter rivalry against the team you drugged your way of can certainly leave something of a bad taste in the mouth for a while. Gary mentioned today how polite and tolerant he has found St. Louis fans to be. That hasn't been my experience.

stevejrogers May 06 2021 04:04 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Also their Hall was established in 2014.

kcmets May 06 2021 07:22 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

=stevejrogers post_id=63240 time=1620295455 user_id=57]Also their Hall was established in 2014.

Really? I'm too mobile-y lazy to check right now.

Johnny Lunchbucket May 06 2021 07:33 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Edgy MD wrote: Drugging your way off a first place team and then going to a cellar-dwellar, helping turn them around, getting clean, and leading them into a bitter rivalry against the team you drugged your way of can certainly leave something of a bad taste in the mouth for a while. Gary mentioned today how polite and tolerant he has found St. Louis fans to be. That hasn't been my experience. My experience has been mixed in various St. Louisian visits. First time at Busch II, I was on a biz trip and bought a single seat at the gate. Figured that being amongst the "Best Fans in Baseball" I'd encounter knowledgeable patrons with whom I could the discuss the game but the people around me were complete baseball illiterates. Coulda just been bad luck. More recently at Busch III we had a very friendly stadium tour guide who was partisan and knowledgeable but great to talk to. Also encountered a butt-hurt usher who interrupted us trying to get the proper post-game victory photo, shooing us away. A better strategy would have been offering to take the pic for us but you could tell they too humilated to do so. Spring Training in St. Petersburg back when we shared a facility-- no problems, good folks. Online fans-- don't know they're racists, less smart than they think they are. Visiting fans at Shea/Citi -- OK I guess. My cardinals-Mets at home stories are almost all big wins for the good guys. Historically -- "pond scum." Does not reflect well

Benjamin Grimm May 06 2021 07:46 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: My cardinals-Mets at home stories are almost all big wins for the good guys. Wow, you've had better luck than I have. I was at both of the games we see below. Looking at them together, I see that they were both on September 11 (is that ever a good day?), both went ten innings, both were started by John Tudor and both were lost by Jesse Orosco. But I was also at the Opening Day win in 1985, so there's that. http://ultimatemets.com/scorecard_graph.php?game=3822&font=7> http://ultimatemets.com/scorecard_graph.php?game=4162&font=7>

whippoorwill May 06 2021 07:50 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Edgy MD wrote: 1920s Hollywood heartthrob Gilbert Roland, getting his Keith Hernandez on before the world had been blessed with the genuine article. https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/03/roland.jpg> Wow

Benjamin Grimm May 06 2021 07:51 AM Re: I'm Keith Hernandez (Not me, Keith) Does Keith Hernandez have his own thread somewhere here?

Maybe Keith is an immortal vampire, like Nic Cage.