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1965 Crane Pool Forum Rankings Thread

d'Kong76 Jun 29 2005 06:39 PM

Frayed Knot Nov 25 2006 05:01 PM

1965 Rankings POINTS PLAYER 30 Johnny Lewis 29 Ron Swoboda 28 Jim Hickman 27 Ed Kranepool 26 Charley Smith 25 Roy McMillan 24 Joe Christopher 23 Jack Fisher 22 Al Jackson 21 Chuck Hiller 20 Tug McGraw 19 Bobby Klaus 18 Ron Hunt 17 Galen Cisco 16 Warren Spahn 15 Chris Cannizzaro 14 Gary Kroll 13 Gordie Richardson 12 Larry Bearnarth 11 Darrell Sutherland 10 Jesse Gonder 9 John Stephenson 8 Billy Cowen 7 Hawk Taylor 6 Tom Parsons 5 Dan Napolean 4 Larry Miller 3 Jim Bethke 2 Gary Kolb 1 Dennis Ribant

Edgy MD Dec 09 2006 12:42 PM

Hugeley inconsistent with my copy of the grand table. Hugely. Including no less than three cats who were left out completely. 1965 Rankings POINTS PLAYER SPREADSHEET SEZ DIF 30 Johnny Lewis Johnny Lewis -- 29 Ron Swoboda Charley Smith +3 28 Jim Hickman Jack Fisher +5 27 Ed Kranepool Ron Swoboda -2 26 Charley Smith Ed Kranepool -1 25 Roy McMillan Al Jackson +3 24 Joe Christopher Tug McGraw +4 23 Jack Fisher Jim Hickman -5 22 Al Jackson Warren Spahn +6 21 Chuck Hiller Galen Cisco +4 20 Tug McGraw Joe Christopher -4 19 Bobby Klaus Roy McMillan -6 18 Ron Hunt Frank Lary +18 17 Galen Cisco Darrell Sutherland +6 16 Warren Spahn Gordie Richardson +3 15 Chris Cannizzaro Gary Kroll +1 14 Gary Kroll Chuck Hiller -7 13 Gordie Richardson Bobby Klaus -6 12 Larry Bearnarth Ron Hunt -6 11 Darrell Sutherland Rob Gardner +11 10 Jesse Gonder Dick Selma +10 9 John Stephenson John Stephenson -- 8 Billy Cowen Dennis Ribant +7 7 Hawk Taylor Jesse Gonder -3 6 Tom Parsons Chris Cannizzaro -9 5 Dan Napolean Billy Cowen -3 4 Larry Miller Jim Bethke +1 3 Jim Bethke Hawk Taylor -4 2 Gary Kolb Larry Bearnarth -10 1 Dennis Ribant Tom Parsons -5

Frayed Knot Dec 09 2006 03:12 PM

OK, I smell a whole lotta trouble here. To start with, your list bears no resemblence to anything in the threads discussion. Now I know there's a decent chance that that's not the complete thread (although it does seem like it is) but, among other problems: * you've got Bearnarth's 60 IPs and Parson's 90 at the bottom of the list, well behind Selma (all of 26 IP) - and Selma doesn't even appear anywhere in the original discussion. * Rob Gardner (all of 28 IP) wasn't discussed either but now suddenly appears towards the middle of your list. * Dennis Ribant (and his 35 IP) also jumps up after never being anywhere BUT the very bottom of the list. Something's rotten in Denmark.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2006 09:09 PM

Yeah, well, the utter absence of Lary doesn't look too good for your list either.

Frayed Knot Dec 10 2006 07:24 PM

Yeah, Lary looks like he was wronged by not being there, but the bigger question involves how & when he and those other changes got onto your list. It doesn't look like F.L. was ever in the discussion and some of those other "changes" don't look remotely logical.

Johnny Dickshot Dec 10 2006 07:50 PM

I'm sure if edgy wasn't so hellbent on destroying the discussion over Yogi Berra's candidacy things woulda been fine. Just kidding. OTOH.. Looks at least like list 2 addresses my case for Fat Jack not being pinned beaneath the lineup stiffs. Let's do this one again.

Edgy MD Dec 10 2006 08:47 PM

Sorry to have dominated part of the original conversation with a stupid goofball request. Let's take it back to the main forum.

iramets Dec 11 2006 05:20 AM

What's the "grand list"? What are the "rankings"? What's the "spreadsheet"? Luv to get in on this discussion, but it's like you guys are discussing intricacies of the Kaballah---some help for us Methodists here, plz?

Rockin' Doc Dec 11 2006 05:37 AM

iramets, from one methodist to another, I think you might find this thread (and maybe this one) somewhat helpful starting points concerning what everyone is talking about.

iramets Dec 11 2006 06:52 AM

Thanks, Doc. Your second link seems to be a cumulative kind of thing, emcompassing many seasons. I'm still not sure why the 1965 season has so much internal difficulty. Did someone change the rankings for 1965 somehow? It seems fairly simple, to argue, and finally agree on, a ranking for players in a particular year. Once the arguing is done, what's the problem? There's your list. I still don't get what the problem is: a transcription error? Someone deliberately changed the 1965 rankings? It was never finally clear what the 1965 rankings were? Someone got paid off?

metsmarathon Dec 11 2006 07:13 AM

the problem most likely stems from the fact that the server (a prior home of the CPF) upon which all of the original discussions were conducted, went poof a while back, leaving some threads whole, some threads wholly lost into the ether, and other threads incomplete. and there's, i don't think, any good way to tell the difference. ordinarily, the history of the discussions in the thread would lead one to arrive at the consensus ranking for a given year. but that doesn't seem to be the case here, does it! i blame edgy. edgy suxxx!!!! lets redo the whole project!

Frayed Knot Jan 03 2007 01:21 PM

So how do we go about "fixing" this list? It started with the original JA/Iubital list which had some questions about it but either never any resolution to them or else it was lost over time. Among objections were the lack of pitchers up top as well as Frank Lary being left off entirely. 30 J. Lewis 29 R. Swoboda 28 J. Hickman 27 E. Kranepool 26 C. Smith 25 R. McMillan 24 J. Christopher 23 J. Fisher 22 A. Jackson 21 C. Hiller 20 T. McGraw 19 B. Klaus 18 R. Hunt 17 G. Cisco 16 W. Spahn 15 C. Cannizzaro 14 G. Kroll 13 G. Richardson 12 L. Bearnarth 11 D. Sutherland 10 J. Gonder 9 J. Stephenson 8 B. Cowan 7 H. Taylor 6 T. Parsons 5 D. Napolean 4 G. Kolb 3 J. Bethke 2 L. Miller 1 D. Ribant 'Sal' countered with an alternate list but it's not clear whether any discussion resulted from it; 30 Johnny Lewis 29 Charlie Smith 28 Jack Fisher 27 Ron Swoboda 26 Ed Kranepool 25 Roy McMillan 24 Al Jackson 23 Joe Christopher 22 Jim Hickman 21 Tug McGraw 20 Chuck Hiller 19 Darrell Sutherland 18 Warren Spahn 17 Ron Hunt 16 Bobby Klaus 15 Galen Cisco 14 Gordon Richardson 13 John Stephenson 12 Chris Cannizzaro 11 Billy Cowan 10 Gary Kroll 09 Jesse Gonder 08 Frank Lary 07 Larry Bearnarth 06 Hawk Taylor 05 Tom Parsons 04 Jim Bethke 03 Gary Kolb 02 Danny Napoleon 01 Cleon Jones 00 Dennis Ribant and then Edgy's supposed "final" list bears only some resemblence to either one and shows no record of how it got that way.

Edgy MD Jan 03 2007 01:29 PM

Snark, snark.

Frayed Knot Jan 03 2007 01:49 PM

Who's being snarky? The list which went in as the "official" order doesn't look anything like the original submission and there's nothing in the discussion that followed (at least in the surviving discussion) which shows how it got that way. If it didn't vary so wildly we wouldn't have re-opened this.

Edgy MD Jan 03 2007 01:55 PM

Again with the quotey-quotey thing. I'll defer to whatever (so long as Lary is redeemed), or we can revisit. I'm working on 2006.

Frayed Knot Jan 25 2007 09:07 PM

I didn't expect this one to get a whole lot of attention, but it was re-opened to discussion when some discrepancies jumped up about the original order due to lost data. Based on the info we did save, the list looks like: 30 - Lewis 29 - Swoboda 28 - Smith 27 - Fisher 26 - Kranepool 25 - Hickman 24 - McMillan 23 - Christopher 22 - Jackson 21 - McGraw 20 - Hiller 19 - Hunt 18 - Klaus 17 - Spahn 16 - Cisco 15 - Sutherland 14 - Richardson 13 - Cannizzaro 12 - Kroll 11 - Stephenson 10 - Gonder 9 - Bearnarth 8 - Cowen 7 - Lary 6 - Parsons 5 - Hawk Taylor 4 - Bethke 3 - Kolb 2 - Napolean 1 - Larry Miller So, unless someone has some objections or comments, I'll consider this a done deal.

iramets Jan 26 2007 05:11 AM

Might be fun to run some head-to-head comparisons of comparable players ranked differently on various lists, unless someone has better things to do in late January than compare mediocre balplayers from four decades ago. Frinstance: Swoboda-Hickman, both high-K, moderate-power, clumsy outfielders. Or Smith-Kranepool, both fair offense, poor defense corner infielders Or Ribant-Bethke-Selma, all kiddie pitchers, two of whom didn't make it onto the final chart. Selma had four games (all starts) and a 3.67 ERA and a shutout, which looks strong to me; Ribant, who's also not on the chart at all, led the team in Saves (admittedly with 3) and a respectable 3.86 ERA in 35 IP--contrast with Bethke, who threw just 5 more innings than Ribant, had a 4.28 ERA and 0 saves. He ranks #4. Why? This "official" list looks like a compromise between JA's list and Sal's list, which is fine if we're looking for quick and dirty solutions, but I'm looking for arguments. Someone care to make the case for Jim Bethke?

Frayed Knot Jan 26 2007 08:32 AM

The lack of games & IPs is probably what got Selma overlooked originally. I could make an argument for both him & Ribant over - not Bethke neccesarily - but Napoleon & Miller. How 'bout: 5 - Ribant 4 - Bethke 3 - Selma 2 - Taylor 1 - Kolb