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It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

batmagadanleadoff Feb 24 2021 09:40 AM

Luis Rojas marvels at how deGrom shows up for Spring Training half a year after last season ended and hits 99MPH on the radar, effortlessly. "It's ridiculous", sez Rojas. And in an article for The Athletic published two days ago, deGrom sez he feels better than ever and that there's no reason he can't seriously compete for another Cy Young award.

Marshmallowmilkshake Mar 27 2021 11:59 AM JdG for MVP?

ESPN's Buster Olney on his Baseball Tonight podcsat was making predictions. Both Buster and his guess had Jake for Cy Young, but also for MVP. They think he'll be that dominant. Tough for a pitcher to get that award, especially in a league with so many great hitters.

Edgy MD Mar 27 2021 01:15 PM Re: JdG for MVP?

It's the preponderance of offense that should frame the value of the very best pitchers. To me, it's hard for pitchers to win MVP because of (a) tradition, (b) prejudice, (c) traditional prejudice, and (d) artificial usage restrictions.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 27 2021 01:38 PM Re: JdG for MVP?

If it was up to me, pitchers would win the MVP way more often than not and way more often than they actually do. Starting pitchers who make almost all of their starts face 800, 900 batters a season. That's a coupl'a hundred more than the number of plate appearances everyday position players get in a season.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 27 2021 02:07 PM Re: JdG for MVP?

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=58781 time=1616873912 user_id=68] If it was up to me, pitchers would win the MVP way more often than not and way more often than they actually do. Starting pitchers who make almost all of their starts face 800, 900 batters a season. That's a coupl'a hundred more than the number of plate appearances everyday position players get in a season.

So to answer the question -- Jake for MVP? Why not? He's the best pitcher in the NL and reports are that he's getting better, or at least not declining. But the reality is that a pitcher has to have a historical season to win the MVP. Like what Gooden did in '85. Or two years ago Jake. /sarcasm

dinosaur jesus Mar 27 2021 03:06 PM Re: JdG for MVP?

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=58783 time=1616875666 user_id=68] =batmagadanleadoff post_id=58781 time=1616873912 user_id=68] If it was up to me, pitchers would win the MVP way more often than not and way more often than they actually do. Starting pitchers who make almost all of their starts face 800, 900 batters a season. That's a coupl'a hundred more than the number of plate appearances everyday position players get in a season.

So to answer the question -- Jake for MVP? Why not? He's the best pitcher in the NL and reports are that he's getting better, or at least not declining. But the reality is that a pitcher has to have a historical season to win the MVP. Like what Gooden did in '85. Or two years ago Jake. /sarcasm


He has to have a historical season, and his team has to reach the postseason. The last pitcher to win the MVP on a non-postseason team was Bobby Shantz in 1952. Gooden probably would have won if the Mets had made it in 1985. Or maybe not. Guidry didn't in 1978, or Pedro in 1999, and Maddux and Randy Johnson never got higher than third in the voting.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 27 2021 03:09 PM Re: JdG for MVP?

Seaver finished second to Willie McCovey in 1969.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 27 2021 04:30 PM Re: JdG for MVP?

dinosaur jesus wrote: =batmagadanleadoff post_id=58783 time=1616875666 user_id=68] =batmagadanleadoff post_id=58781 time=1616873912 user_id=68] If it was up to me, pitchers would win the MVP way more often than not and way more often than they actually do. Starting pitchers who make almost all of their starts face 800, 900 batters a season. That's a coupl'a hundred more than the number of plate appearances everyday position players get in a season. So to answer the question -- Jake for MVP? Why not? He's the best pitcher in the NL and reports are that he's getting better, or at least not declining. But the reality is that a pitcher has to have a historical season to win the MVP. Like what Gooden did in '85. Or two years ago Jake. /sarcasm

He has to have a historical season, and his team has to reach the postseason. The last pitcher to win the MVP on a non-postseason team was Bobby Shantz in 1952. Gooden probably would have won if the Mets had made it in 1985. Or maybe not. Guidry didn't in 1978, or Pedro in 1999, and Maddux and Randy Johnson never got higher than third in the voting.


Good point on Guidry. Guidry didnt win the MVP because Jim Rice was perceived to be the indisputably best AL position player in 1978. That's probably the other condition that has to exist for a pitcher to win the MVP; the lack of a consensus best position player.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 28 2021 02:20 PM Re: JdG for MVP?

What drives me nuts is when I hear or read about position players griping that pitchers shouldn't win the MVP because they already have their own award. That's like saying that Marcell Ozuna shouldn't be recognized as last season's NL HR leader because Ozuna had already won the 2020 NL RBI crown. Of course, the thing to do is to create an award with the prestige of the MVP award but for non-pitchers only. (Then watch the old school writers/voters fuck it up by voting for an MVP that won neither the Cy Young award nor the new award for non-pitchers only).

smg58 Mar 28 2021 05:07 PM Re: JdG for MVP?

I don't like preseason predictions. I'm also worried that throwing 100+ mph will take innings away from DeGrom and give them to the pen, which will help neither his MVP chances nor the Mets. And that's assuming he doesn't blow his arm out. You want the MVP? Give me 240, kick it old school, and show them how it's done.

ashie62 Mar 28 2021 05:48 PM Re: JdG for MVP?

I have no problem voting a pitcher 1st for MVP. I would however be looking for old school IP CG and more than a few shutouts.

Edgy MD Mar 28 2021 06:56 PM Re: JdG for MVP?

I'd settle for middle school.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 29 2021 02:01 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Pretty cut and dry over at The Athletic: Cy Young Award: Jacob deGrom Second place: Trevor Bauer Third place: Aaron Nola Dark horse: Walker Buehler Jacob deGrom is the best pitcher in baseball. Period. He's a future Hall of Famer. He has the nastiest stuff in the game. His command and control are off the charts. This used to be a race but not anymore. If deGrom stays healthy, he will win his third Cy Young Award. https://theathletic.com/2480286/2021/03/29/mlb-award-predictions-for-2021-bowden-on-ronald-acuna-jr-s-time-to-shine-the-best-roy-race-in-years-and-more/

Benjamin Grimm Mar 29 2021 02:22 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

From 2014: Let's Make a Trade Today

Edgy MD Mar 29 2021 02:37 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Should I merge the MVP thread into this?

Benjamin Grimm Mar 29 2021 02:40 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: Should I merge the MVP thread into this? Sounds like a good idea. (Let's keep this title, though.)

Willets Point Mar 29 2021 02:46 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: From 2014: Let's Make a Trade Today Sweet Jesus that was a bad trade proposal!

Johnny Lunchbucket Mar 29 2021 02:47 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: From 2014: Let's Make a Trade Today Whoops In my defense he'd only just come up and was considered the lesser of Montero-Sydergaard-Wheeler-Matz comers at that time. I had a thing about Didi, if you look hard enough you can also find me advocating we cough up Syndy for him

TransMonk Mar 30 2021 07:58 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/31142014/2021-mlb-season-preview-power-rankings-best-worst-case-most-exciting-player-all-30-teams David Schoenfield picks Jake as the Mets' most exciting player and also states he will win MVP as his "bold prediction". I'm not sure if he was Buster Onley's guest mentioned above at the start of the MVP talk.

Ceetar Mar 30 2021 08:20 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

these guys are mostly just filling columns, but floating the idea of deGrom as MVP gives it legs that it wouldn't if someone floated it in September. Gives people all year to be swayed whereas otherwise they might not even consider it until they'd already mentally decided on someone else.

batmagadanleadoff Apr 12 2021 07:23 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Jacob deGrom is leading all NL hitters and pitchers in bWAR.

G-Fafif Apr 22 2021 04:18 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

https://twitter.com/super70ssports/status/1385340112263946241?s=21

kcmets Apr 22 2021 04:22 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

That's a golden tweet

MFS62 Apr 22 2021 06:13 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

That should be on a t-shirt we would wear until they score some runs for our favorite motherfucker. Later

G-Fafif Apr 25 2021 08:34 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

https://twitter.com/mms0272/status/1386367960298688512?s=21

batmagadanleadoff Apr 25 2021 09:41 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

He's only four starts in, but still, no matter how you measure them, deGrom's on pace to fan 400+ batters this season.

G-Fafif Apr 26 2021 03:14 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Bumgarner and Tatis named co-NL Players of the Week. DeGrom comfortable with Pitcher of the Age.

G-Fafif Apr 28 2021 06:20 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Michael Baumann of the Ringer on Jacob deGrom as a) the best player in baseball; b) a pitcher on a potential unlikely Hall of Fame track. Since deGrom's first Cy Young season in 2018, Baseball-Reference credits him with 22.1 wins above replacement, five more than second-place Aaron Nola and therefore tops among pitchers by far. Add in the 1.4 bWAR deGrom has chipped in at the plate, and you get a total of 23.5 bWAR. Baseball-Reference WAR isn't gospel; it's just one version of one approach to player evaluation. And the time scale of this thought exercise—starting with the best season of deGrom's career—clearly puts him at an advantage; 2018 was the year when deGrom emerged as one of the best pitchers in the world. For most of his career to that point, he wasn't clearly the best on his own team. Then there's the fact that this is a strange moment to try to pick on Trout, who as of this writing is hitting .426/.539/.820. Even with all that said, though, here are the bWAR leaders among position players since 2018: 1. Mookie Betts (22.3) 2. Trout (21.1) 3. Alex Bregman (18.4) 4. Matt Chapman (16.8) 5. Trevor Story (16.2) The question of whether deGrom is the best player in baseball is one of those early-spring reactive talking points that pops up year after year to tide us over until the bounces start to even out. Even the ludicrous hot streak deGrom is on through four starts (50 strikeouts with just one earned run and 16 base runners allowed over 29 innings) might have been camouflaged if it had happened in August. But even if the answer to the question is “no,” as it probably will be until Trout either starts to show signs of age or retires to go home and farm tomatoes, this isn't a silly proposition. There's more to deGrom's run of success than your garden-variety low-data hot takeism. It doesn't take a detailed statistical or biomechanical analysis to appreciate what deGrom is doing; anyone with even a cursory understanding of the rules of baseball can see how dominant deGrom has been this season and how easy he's making it look. So far in 2021, deGrom is leading all MLB starters in ERA (0.31) and average fastball velocity (98.9 mph), and is second in strikeouts (50) and opponent expected wOBA (.189). My favorite number attached to deGrom this year is his strikeout rate of 49.5 percent. Not only because he's striking out basically half of the batters he faces, but because such a feat has been achieved only by one-inning relievers like Aroldis Chapman and Craig Kimbrel. DeGrom, by contrast, is facing an average of 25 batters and change every start. Imagine Usain Bolt running his 200-meter world record pace for a full mile. But the greatest testament to deGrom's success is the fact that he's now considered a legitimate Hall of Fame candidate. https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2021/4/28/22406514/jacob-degrom-hall-of-fame-case-mets

Frayed Knot Apr 28 2021 06:33 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

But the greatest testament to deGrom's success is the fact that he's now considered a legitimate Hall of Fame candidate. Even though he is, at this moment, still two seasons short of even being eligible for the Hall of Fame.

batmagadanleadoff Apr 29 2021 12:25 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Lotsa deGrom-themed number crunching over at fivethirtyeight.com (written before last night's Red Sox game): https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/jacob-degrom-is-outdoing-even-jacob-degrom/ Excerpts: But deGrom's misleadingly mediocre win-loss records also underscore another big theme of his career: how much the Mets have failed to capitalize on one of the greatest arms in baseball history. In deGrom's 187 career starts, the Mets have spoiled 24 outings in which he had a Game Score of 60 or better by losing while scoring two or fewer runs. That share — 12.8 percent of deGrom's total starts — represents the highest rate of spoiled starts for any pitcher in history with at least 20 total games meeting that criteria: Beyond his superlative pitching skills, Jacob deGrom's most impressive trait might be his ability to raise the bar ever higher for himself. The college shortstop turned ninth-round pitcher turned elbow-surgery survivor won the National League's Rookie of the Year honors in 2014, but he wasn't content merely to feature next to the other New York Mets fireballers — he had to outpitch them. He didn't stop at posting a sub-2.00 ERA over a full season (like he did in 2018), either, or at winning a second-straight Cy Young award (like he did in 2019) or even at striking out nearly 40 percent of opposing batters (like he did in 2020). Whenever you think deGrom has reached his peak, he finds another level of greatness.

G-Fafif Apr 29 2021 08:28 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Roger Angell shares his Jacob deGrom thoughts with Jason Gay of WSJ. In the bottom half of the first, I called the legendary New Yorker writer and fiction editor Roger Angell, whose foray into baseball writing began in 1962 with the “grotesque early sufferings” of the expansion Mets under Casey Stengel (“a walking pantheon of evocations,” Angell wrote of the aging Stengel), eventually reaching a point of such stature and admiration in the sport that, in 2014, Angell was honored by the Baseball Hall of Fame. Angell is now 100 years old, and his eyesight is challenged, but he still locks in for the drama of deGrom Day. “There's something very intense about him, but it's effortless intensity,” Angell told me. “There's no grunting or groaning. His pitches up in the 100s are just so surprising, because the pitch comes so quickly, and from normal effort. He's immensely powerful, but it doesn't show itself much.” I noted the 41 on the sleeve of deGrom's jersey, a patch which the Mets are wearing this season to honor Tom Seaver, who died last August. Angell had known Seaver well. Did he see any comparison? “Well, aside from their fabulous efficiency, I don't see much comparison, because Seaver was essentially a drop-down pitcher,” Angell said. “He went straight down—that was his power; his knee would strike the dirt. DeGrom's is just very simple motion. I don't know where this enormous speed comes from. He's strongly-built, but he does not look overpowering. But he is. The amazing thing is that he's getting faster.” He is indeed getting faster. As the Journal's Andrew Beaton and Joshua Robinson noted earlier this month, deGrom's average velocity is climbing at a career point in which pitchers are usually learning how to be craftier, and less reliant on speed. One theory is that DeGrom is a late bloomer: he also played shortstop in college, and in his first season in the minors, he hurt his arm and had Tommy John surgery, missing a season and a half. DeGrom didn't throw 140 innings in a season until he was 25 years old, and the result is a delayed career arc that, as Beaton and Robinson humorously theorized, resembles F. Scott Fitzgerald's character of Benjamin Button. DeGrom appears to be aging in reverse, routinely hitting three digits on the radar gun. Against Boston, he was very good, but not his best. In the second inning, the Red Sox tagged him for a pair of doubles and a run, and while deGrom stopped the bleeding there, New York couldn't score at all off Boston's Nick Pivetta or his relievers, triggering another doleful night for the Mets faithful. A start like what deGrom delivered—six innings, three hits, one run, nine strikeouts, one walk—should be more than enough to get a win, most of the time. Once again, it was not. In Metsworld, the frustration slipped on like an old sweater. “He has had every reason over the last few years to throw teammates under the bus, and has not done it once,” the Mets broadcaster Gary Cohen said late in the contest. https://www.wsj.com/articles/jacob-degrom-mlb-new-york-mets-red-sox-pitching-strikeout-record-11619703843

G-Fafif May 03 2021 01:51 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Jacob deGrom is your National League Pitcher of the Month for April.

batmagadanleadoff May 05 2021 12:47 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

The day after Jake deGrom is scratched and put on a "no-throw" rest regimen pending further testing, The Athletic runs this piece: How is the Mets' Jacob deGrom throwing this hard and still getting better? ‘I've never seen anything like it' Tim Britton 4h ago 27 Excerpt: Jacob deGrom does not, as far as anyone knows, play the French horn. He pitches with two cleats on, his hat on straight, and with total commitment to his craft. And yet, when Randy Sullivan, founder of the Florida Baseball ARMory, a training facility in Lakeland that works with pitchers on building velocity, watches deGrom, the only person he can think of in his class is a figure from Mets mythology. “Nice coincidence he's with the New York Mets,” Sullivan said. “He's like the April Fool's joke, Sidd Finch.” Over the first five weeks of the season, deGrom has further solidified his title as the best pitcher in baseball. Since 2018, his ERA over 81 starts is 1.99. In five starts this year, he has allowed two earned runs over 35 innings, striking out 59 batters. Three times he's punched out at least 14. “He's a generational pitcher,” Mets pitching coach Jeremy Hefner said. “We're witnessing something that most guys can't do.” “DeGrom's an interesting case,” Alex Caravan, the manager of data science at Driveline Baseball, said this week. “Because there's not really anybody else like deGrom.” What fascinates so many in the sport is not just that deGrom is this good, but also how exactly he has become this good. The right-hander will turn 33 next month, and yet he's throwing harder than he ever has before — harder than any other starting pitcher in baseball. DeGrom is averaging 98.9 miles per hour on his fastball — the fastest by a starter in the pitch tracking era, which dates to 2008. Since he entered the major leagues in 2014 and especially in the last three years, deGrom has methodically added velocity to his fastball better than anyone in baseball. That would be a remarkable development for any pitcher; it's nearly unfathomable for a pitcher after the age of 30. “It's unprecedented,” Caravan said. “At least, I can't think of anybody off top my head that would fit into quite deGrom's magnitude.” Over the last decade, no starter at any age has added more velocity to their fastball over any stretch of time than deGrom has. Caravan cited research done by Jeff Zimmermann at FanGraphs that showed the average pitcher lost 2 mph on his fastball from age 26 to 32. DeGrom gained more than 4 mph during that span of his career. To try to contextualize this, I looked at the top 15 pitchers by wins above replacement, according to FanGraphs, since 2008, which was when Pitch F/X tracking started.... [FIMG=666]https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2021/05/05002340/0429-deGrom-Top-15-without-Jake-e1620224663382.jpg[/FIMG] Oh wait, I forgot to include deGrom in that one. Let's see if he stands out. [FIMG=666]https://cdn.theathletic.com/app/uploads/2021/05/05002334/0429-deGrom-Top-15-Velo-e1620224680321.jpg[/FIMG] https://theathletic.com/2556671/2021/05/05/how-is-the-mets-jacob-degrom-throwing-this-hard-and-still-getting-better-ive-never-seen-anything-like-it/

G-Fafif May 10 2021 07:59 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/jonmorosi/status/1391751598280478722[/tweet]

Benjamin Grimm May 10 2021 08:04 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Well, obviously we have to hope that's accurate. We've all seen day-to-day take a turn for the worse plenty of times before, so who knows?

G-Fafif May 10 2021 09:07 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/jonmorosi/status/1391756274241507328[/tweet]

batmagadanleadoff May 10 2021 09:53 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Meanwhile, deGrom's leading the NL in just about every pitching rate stat.

Edgy MD May 10 2021 10:42 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

He increased his walk total by 75% in one inning. And still only gave up a single run.

Ceetar May 10 2021 12:37 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

isn't it 15 day IL for pitchers though? Or did that not happen? It's hard to keep track of Manfred's nonsense.

batmagadanleadoff May 10 2021 02:05 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

deGrom to IL.

MFS62 May 10 2021 02:17 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=63809 time=1620677155 user_id=68] deGrom to IL.

Because they moved someone to the [CROSSOUT]DL[/CROSSOUT] IL, can they now PLEASE bring Sean Reid-Foley back up and give him a start?

PLEASE.



Later

Edgy MD May 10 2021 02:33 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=63809 time=1620677155 user_id=68] deGrom to IL.

Why I don't doubt this is happening, do you have a source saying this has already hap'd? Is there a corresponding move?

kcmets May 10 2021 02:41 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread. Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 10 2021 02:44 PM

Won't happen until tomorrow retroactive to today and move will be announced then.

batmagadanleadoff May 10 2021 02:42 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: deGrom to IL. Why I don't doubt this is happening, do you have a source saying this has already hap'd? Is there a corresponding move? Here's this: https://www.mlb.com/news/jacob-degrom-side-injury-update plus, I saw the move reported on an MLB network chyron.

Frayed Knot May 10 2021 02:52 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Three off days in the next ten [Mon - Thurs - Thurs] makes this easier to endure.

Benjamin Grimm May 10 2021 02:58 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

It's too bad Carrasco isn't ready to step in. I guess for now I'd go with Stroman, Walker, Peterson, Yamamoto, Reid-Foley. (With Lucchesi and Gsellman on stand-by?)

batmagadanleadoff May 10 2021 03:00 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread. Edited 2 time(s), most recently on May 10 2021 03:03 PM

Frayed Knot wrote: Three off days in the next ten [Mon - Thurs - Thurs] makes this easier to endure. Probably. But I see it differently. All these off days, plus the disproportionately high number of Mets games already canceled that will be made up as doubleheaders, plus this upcoming IL stint for deGrom, and that he's already one or two starts behind pitchers who haven't missed a start this season, doesn't bode well for the Mets or for deGrom. This will end up costing deGrom about four starts when it's all said and done. And that's assuming deGrom doesn't miss any more starts because of his health.

Edgy MD May 10 2021 03:02 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: deGrom to IL. Why I don't doubt this is happening, do you have a source saying this has already hap'd? Is there a corresponding move? Here's this: https://www.mlb.com/news/jacob-degrom-side-injury-update plus, I saw the move reported on an MLB network chyron. Thanks. That suggests it's still in the will be stage. MRC needed to know as they scramble to keep up.

Ceetar May 10 2021 04:14 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Frayed Knot wrote: Three off days in the next ten [Mon - Thurs - Thurs] makes this easier to endure. Probably. But I see it differently. All these off days, plus the disproportionately high number of Mets games already canceled that will be made up as doubleheaders, plus this upcoming IL stint for deGrom, and that he's already one or two starts behind pitchers who haven't missed a start this season, doesn't bode well for the Mets or for deGrom. This will end up costing deGrom about four starts when it's all said and done. And that's assuming deGrom doesn't miss any more starts because of his health. He'll make up those 4-5 starts in October though, when most pitcher's are done for the year.

Lefty Specialist May 10 2021 06:57 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Yeah, this is a good way to rest up his arm for the postseason (jinx)

batmagadanleadoff May 17 2021 12:39 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

If everthing goes well, deGrom might start as early as this Friday. Or the Mets might give deGrom a rehab start in the minors before his next major league start.

Ceetar May 17 2021 02:51 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

It's the Marlins. how much lower can you go?

batmagadanleadoff May 18 2021 04:12 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

deGrom is scheduled to throw a bullpen session today that will determine whether his next start is for real and in the majors or for rehab in the minors.

G-Fafif May 19 2021 03:24 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Jacob will make a rehab start with St. Lucie tomorrow.

Marshmallowmilkshake May 19 2021 08:30 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=G-Fafif post_id=64756 time=1621459498 user_id=55] Jacob will make a rehab start with St. Lucie tomorrow.

They are playing in Jupiter, Fla. and I will be at the game!

Johnny Lunchbucket May 19 2021 08:50 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Be sure to take note of which catcher they use.

Marshmallowmilkshake May 20 2021 03:49 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Jake is wearing No. 11 for his rehab game!

Edgy MD May 20 2021 04:03 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

That's good knowledge! Follow along here evuhbody!

Marshmallowmilkshake May 20 2021 04:04 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Be sure to take note of which catcher they use. Alvarez is warming him up for long toss.

Edgy MD May 20 2021 04:23 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Listen live! Alvarez catching and batting third. Backup catcher Matt Dyer playing first. Fourteen hundred fans = sellout!

Edgy MD May 20 2021 04:34 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

We've got hi-tech calling ballz and strikez this evening.

Marshmallowmilkshake May 20 2021 04:35 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: Listen live! Alvarez catching and batting third. Backup catcher Matt Dyer playing first. Fourteen hundred fans = sellout! I ordered tix online last night and think I got the last three. I tried to buy five, then four, and three went through. Last seats in the last row in the bleachers. Park is 21 percent capacity allowed.

Edgy MD May 20 2021 04:38 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Double by Sherwyn Newton and a ground single by Alvarez and the Mets have runners on the corners with one out.

Edgy MD May 20 2021 04:40 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

DOUBLE BY ZACK ASHFORD! NEWTON SCORES!! HERE COMES ALVAREZ!!!! OUT AT THE PLATE!! WHAT'S GOING ON?!!! A FIRST-INNING LEAD FOR deGROM??!!

Edgy MD May 20 2021 04:43 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

First pitch = 100 MPH.

Edgy MD May 20 2021 04:44 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Soft grounder on a 1-2 pitch. Throw misplayed by Dyer at first. deGrom will be pitching from the stretch. Runner steals on first pitch.

Edgy MD May 20 2021 04:47 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Strikeout for the first out. Apparently, he just hit 101.9.

Edgy MD May 20 2021 04:50 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

5-3 ends the inning after two strikeouts.

Edgy MD May 20 2021 05:03 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Strikes out the side in the second. Poof. Five K's in two innings.

ashie62 May 20 2021 05:25 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: Strikeout for the first out. Apparently, he just hit 101.9. Like FM radio.

Marshmallowmilkshake May 20 2021 05:32 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Out of the game but back on the bullpen mound to throw some more.

bmfc1 May 21 2021 05:26 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

41 pitches (30 strikes) that could have been thrown tonight in Miami but whatever. [TWEET]https://twitter.com/GoPBCardinals/status/1395555867290910722[/TWEET]

kcmets May 21 2021 06:45 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Especially in these days of using an opener and bullpen games why not let him throw his 40-50 pitches in a real game? It's like a 100 miles between Port St Lucie and Miami.

batmagadanleadoff May 21 2021 10:52 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

It's looking like Tuesday at Citi against the Rockies for deGrom's MLB return. https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/jacob-degrom-expected-to-rejoin-mets-rotation-ahead-of-tuesday-start-vs-rockies/

nymr83 May 21 2021 03:17 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

It's looking like Tuesday at Citi against the Rockies for deGrom's MLB return. https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/jacob-degrom-expected-to-rejoin-mets-rotation-ahead-of-tuesday-start-vs-rockies/ Nice to see they are easing him back into things, following a start in A-Ball with a start against a AA lineup.

kcmets May 21 2021 07:30 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

My bad, but Jupiter is even closer to Miami.

G-Fafif May 23 2021 11:14 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Jake back on the mound for the New York (not St. Lucie or Syracuse) Mets Tuesday night.

Johnny Lunchbucket May 23 2021 01:02 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Woo

batmagadanleadoff Jun 04 2021 01:22 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Joe Posnanski on the incomparable Jacob deGrom: [Quote]He has allowed four earned runs in eight starts … and he has allowed three home runs, which suggests your best shot against him is to close your eyes and swing as hard as you can.

Edgy MD Jun 04 2021 07:26 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I want to measure him against history with regards to his ration of runs allowed to RBI, but it's hard to find a site that''ll allow you do a database query producing pitching stats side-by-side with hitting stats for all qualifying pitchers in history, season by season. Also, the 19th century had a lot more hybrid Ohtani types who were pitchers and everyday players at the same time.

Edgy MD Jun 04 2021 07:53 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

For what it's worth, here's deGrom 2021 alongside the top RBI/ER seasons of Walter Johnson and Bob Gibson (two of the best pitchers ever who were also very good hitters) as well as Don Drysdale and Carlos Zambrano (two of the best hitting pitchers ever who were also All-Star pitchers). [th]Pitcher[/th] [th]Season[/th] [th]PA[/th] [th]RBI[/th] [th]IP[/th] [th]ER[/th] [th]RBI/ER Ratio[/th] deGrom 2021 20 3 51.00 4 0.75 =#FF0000]Johnson 1918 167 18 326.00 46 0.39 =#FF0000]Johnson 1912 158 20 369.00 57 0.35 =#FF0000]Johnson 1913 144 14 346.00 44 0.32 =#FF0000]Johnson 1915 161 17 336.67 58 0.29 =#FF0000]Johnson 1925 107 20 229.00 78 0.26 =#BF0000]Gibson 1963 100 20 254.67 96 0.21 =#BF0000]Drysdale 1965 138 19 308.33 95 0.20 =#BF0000]Gibson 1965 119 19 299.00 102 0.19 =#BF0000]Gibson 1970 124 19 294.00 102 0.19 =#000080]Zambrano 2008 85 14 188.67 82 0.17 =#BF0000]Gibson 1968 110 6 304.67 38 0.16 =#000080]Zambrano 1972 106 12 278.00 76 0.16 =#000080]Zambrano 2009 72 11 169.33 71 0.15 =#BF0000]Drysdale 1962 126 14 314.33 99 0.14 =#000080]Zambrano 2006 80 11 214.00 81 0.14 =#BF0000]Drysdale 1958 72 12 211.67 98 0.12 =#BF0000]Drysdale 1961 95 12 244.00 100 0.12 =#BF0000]Drysdale 1959 104 12 270.67 104 0.12 =#000080]Zambrano 2003 80 6 214.00 74 0.08

So, putting aside that I just selected a handful of guys based on rep, and the table is miles from conclusive, your takeaway might be that, historically, by this measure, no one sniffs Walter Johnson.



And so far, no Walter Johnson season sniffs Jacob deGrom.

Frayed Knot Jun 04 2021 07:58 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I suspect it's been more than a few years since a pitcher has topped 100 ABs in a season now that we're in the era of 30 or fewer starts/year and 3 or fewer ABs/per

Edgy MD Jun 04 2021 08:05 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

And interleague play creating two or three starts per season where a pitcher doesn't come to the plate. Anybody want to guess the last pitcher in baseball to clear 100 plate appearances in a season, and what season that was?

Methead Jun 04 2021 09:19 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: Anybody want to guess the last pitcher in baseball to clear 100 plate appearances in a season, and what season that was? Is it Seaver '77?

Methead Jun 04 2021 09:28 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Is it Seaver '77? Narrator: "It isn't."

Edgy MD Jun 04 2021 09:30 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

No, a single 21st Century pitcher came to the plate 100 times in a single season.

roger_that Jun 06 2021 06:25 AM Can deGrom beat Bob Gibson?

Since the Mets will have passed the one-third mark of the season by the next game that deGrom starts, this is a convenient point to project his accomplishments for the next two-thirds of 2021. Specifically, what will he need to do to break Bob Gibson's ERA record of 1.12? A quick, back-of-the-envelope answer is simply to take his current distance from that mark (1.12 minus .61 equals .51) and cut that figure in half (about .25) and add that to 1.12. That figure (1.37) represents the ERA that deGrom would have to reach, given an equal number of innings to his current pace) over the last two-thirds of the season in order to match Gibson's 1.12. In other words, he is way ahead of Gibson's ERA, but would have to maintain a spectacular 1.37 ERA for nearly four more months, just to tie Gibson. No one has posted an ERA nearly as low as 1.37 since Gibson did it in 1968. The best anyone has done is Gooden's 1.53 in 1985. So deGrom would still need to beat Gooden's Met record by a sixth of an earned run per nine innings from here on out just to tie Gibson's mark. It's still a very heavy lift. We could compute this number more precisely, but of course precision is nearly impossible in such matters: deGrom's 2021 numbers—innings pitched, games started, earned runs—will rely on his luck and his health in addition to his skill. I think the figure of 1.37 is close enough to the mark, given all the unknown variables, that further precision is futile. Of course, there is no way that he will come close to tying Gibson's number of innings pitched in 1968, so if he matches, or even beats, the 1.12 mark, there will be those who will credit Gibson with having accomplished a much harder task, and it's hard to argue with that point. Multiplying his current stats by 3, he's on pace to go 15-6, with 174 IP in 27 games.

G-Fafif Jun 06 2021 08:57 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Jacob deGrom returns microscopic earned run average to Elias Sports Bureau, says he doesn't really need it.

MFS62 Jun 06 2021 10:12 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Carlton.

kcmets Jun 06 2021 10:23 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: No, a single 21st Century pitcher came to the plate 100 times in a single season. All NIght Dwight aka Doc?

Benjamin Grimm Jun 06 2021 10:46 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Scherzer?

MFS62 Jun 06 2021 11:22 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Dontrelle Willis. Later

Edgy MD Jun 06 2021 01:19 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Dontrelle Willis came to the plate 101 times in 2005.

G-Fafif Jun 06 2021 01:34 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevenacohen2/status/1401613856787607559[/tweet]

batmagadanleadoff Jun 06 2021 04:37 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

More fun with Jacob deGrom stats: Divide deGrom's innings pitched in 2021 by the number of earned runs he's allowed this season (IP/ER) - which in deGrom's case is 58/4. This comes out to 14.5 -- so deGrom's on a current pace where he's allowing one earned run every 14.5 innings. So if deGrom allows one earned run in one inning, he has to pitch 13 and a half scoreless innings to maintain his current ERA of 0.62.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 07 2021 07:10 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

The Mets have 110 games remaining. If deGrom starts one fifth of them, he'd have 22 more starts ahead of him. But because there are going to be a lot of doubleheaders, that's not at all likely to happen. Maybe he'll have 18? In that case, he currently projects to 174 innings, 15-6 record, 24 walks and 279 strikeouts. Oh, and an 0.62 ERA.

Marshmallowmilkshake Jun 07 2021 07:15 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: The Mets have 110 games remaining. If deGrom starts one fifth of them, he'd have 22 more starts ahead of him. But because there are going to be a lot of doubleheaders, that's not at all likely to happen. Maybe he'll have 18? In that case, he currently projects to 174 innings, 15-6 record, 24 walks and 279 strikeouts. Oh, and an 0.62 ERA. I know it's tough for a pitcher to win MVP. But if he had those numbers, and -- fingers crossed -- the Mets win the division, you can make a strong case for deGrom.

Frayed Knot Jun 07 2021 09:49 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Next game might be interesting as he'll be facing the Padres a second time within a week. You figure that has to give at least a tiny edge to the hitters. The problem at this point is that we're so spoiled that a merely Good outing will seem like a disappointment.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 07 2021 10:21 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

deGrom's allowing 3.9 hits per nine innings and striking out 14.4 batters per nine innings -- major league all-time records should those rates hold over the rest of the season. deGrom's ERA (0.62) is about half of Gibson's 1968 single season modern ERA record of 1.12. deGrom's Adjusted ERA (ERA+) is 623. Here's some historical perspective and context for deGrom's 2021 ERA+: deGrom (2021) - 623 Gooden (1985) - 229 Gibson (1968) - 258 Martinez (2000) - 291 Keefe (1880) - 293 -All-time single season ERA+ record. The modern single season record for pitcher bWAR belongs to Dwight Gooden (1985) - 12.2. Dwight needed to pitch 276.2 innings in '85 to accumulate that 12.2 bWAR. deGrom won't come anywhere close to pitching 276.2 innings in 2021, but if he did, at his 2021 rate , he'd finish the season with a mind boggling bWAR of 15.2! Jacob deGrom is breaking baseball in 2021. He's having the pitching equivalent season of a batter hitting 80HR's, driving in 200 runs and on-basing about .600. If deGrom were to maintain this pace over the rest of the season --- a huge if --- and was then denied the MVP award because his Mets didn't finish in first place -- or for any reason, really - well that would be the biggest travesty in the history of MVP voting.

Edgy MD Jun 07 2021 11:12 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I tend to think that baseball is broken, and deGrom is just doing a better job of exploiting it than anybody else.A But that may be just a matter of the perspective perch.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 07 2021 11:56 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=67154 time=1623082866 user_id=68] The modern single season record for pitcher bWAR belongs to Dwight Gooden (1985) - 12.2. Dwight needed to pitch 276.2 innings in '85 to accumulate that 12.2 bWAR. deGrom won't come anywhere close to pitching 276.2 innings in 2021, but if he did, at his 2021 rate , he'd finish the season with a mind boggling bWAR of 15.2!

A bWAR of 15.2 is mind boggling because only one player in all of baseball history (Babe Ruth, 1923) ever had a bWAR higher than 13.0.





If deGrom could maintain his 2021 rate over about 235 innings pitched, he'd have the best single season, bWAR-wise, any player ever had - hitter or pitcher: better than any single season Babe Ruth or Barry Bonds or Ted Williams ever produced.



Sadly though, 235 IP isn't in the cards for deGrom this season. I've got deGrom at about 190-200 innings pitched for this season, and that's assuming he doesn't miss any more starts in 2021 because of health issues.

Edgy MD Jun 07 2021 12:58 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Despite the lost innings, he can add (and has added) to his WAR levels with his bat.

Edgy MD Jun 07 2021 12:59 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: Despite the lost innings, he can add (and has added) to his WAR levels with his bat. My greater concern is that (a) his contract has an opt-out after 2022, and (b) his agent is presumably not an idiot.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 07 2021 01:06 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Yeah, that's going to be the ongoing story of 2022. As long as there's not a prolonged labor stoppage, that is.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 07 2021 01:07 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Maybe the thing to do is hire whoever his current agent is to be the Mets GM. That seemed to work last time.

MFS62 Jun 07 2021 01:25 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Benjamin Grimm wrote: Maybe the thing to do is hire whoever his current agent is to be the Mets GM. That seemed to work last time. [CROSSOUT]Devious fucker[/CROSSOUT] BRILLIANT! Later

batmagadanleadoff Jun 07 2021 02:31 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: Despite the lost innings, he can add (and has added) to his WAR levels with his bat. That's already built in to my post. I used the version of bWAR that also includes a pitcher's fielding and hitting. And t's not just deGrom's microscopic ERA and run prevention that's putting his season on such a historic trajectory. deGrom's retiring batters at an all-time historic pace. Batters are rarely even getting on base against him this season. The all-time WHIP record is 0.737 held by Pedro Martinez in 2000. deGrom's 2021 WHIP is 0.569.

kcmets Jun 07 2021 02:49 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: My greater concern is that (a) his contract has an opt-out after 2022, and (b) his agent is presumably not an idiot. I don't know if it's kontract kosher, but maybe in the offseason Uncle Steve can pull them aside and offer a lump-sum check to get them to amend the contract to remove the opt-out clause. He may not want to leave anyways, and a $20-30 million bonus might work. Maybe it's a wild-ass-kontract thought but I suppose it's also silly to worry about such things while his arm could fall off at anytime between now and then.

MFS62 Jun 07 2021 02:56 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: My greater concern is that (a) his contract has an opt-out after 2022, and (b) his agent is presumably not an idiot. I don't know if it's kontract kosher, but maybe in the offseason Uncle Steve can pull them aside and offer a lump-sum check to get them to amend the contract to remove the opt-out clause. He may not want to leave anyways, and a $20-30 million bonus might work. Maybe it's a wild-ass-kontract thought but I suppose it's also silly to worry about such things while his arm could fall off at anytime between now and then. Contracts get re-negotiated all the time. Other pro leagues seem to do it more frequently because they have hard salary caps and will do it to be able to keep/ acquire players. But this seems like a good approach. Later

batmagadanleadoff Jun 07 2021 02:57 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: My greater concern is that (a) his contract has an opt-out after 2022, and (b) his agent is presumably not an idiot. I don't know if it's kontract kosher, but maybe in the offseason Uncle Steve can pull them aside and offer a lump-sum check to get them to amend the contract to remove the opt-out clause. He may not want to leave anyways, and a $20-30 million bonus might work. Maybe it's a wild-ass-kontract thought but I suppose it's also silly to worry about such things while his arm could fall off at anytime between now and then. Steve Cohen is baseball's wealthiest owner. He buys $80M art sculptures. He could spend $30 or $40M like you could buy yourself a Big Mac and a coke. deGrom ain't going anywhere and this isn't even a speck of an issue. He aint' letting deGrom walk just like he wouldn''t have let Seaver get away if he owned the Mets in '77 and was as rich then as he is now. Cohen's on another level. This is mostly ego and pride and monopoly money to him. He's not running the Mets on pure business principles where revenues and expenses are just about the only things that count. But knock yourselves out counting Cohen's beans with your figurative abacuses, one bean at a time.

Edgy MD Jun 07 2021 03:08 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Art appreciates far more readily than player contracts. I don't think the evidence is in to support Cohen's desire to spend more profligately than any owner in history. Among other things, he hasn't bought out deGrom's out yet.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 07 2021 03:09 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: Art appreciates far more readily than player contracts. I don't think the evidence is in to support Cohen's desire to spend more profligately than any owner in history. Among other things, he hasn't bought out deGrom's out yet. He's only been here for one off-season.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 07 2021 03:12 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I think deGrom is more likely to stay than to go, but I don't see it as a sure thing.

Edgy MD Jun 07 2021 03:13 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: Art appreciates far more readily than player contracts. I don't think the evidence is in to support Cohen's desire to spend more profligately than any owner in history. Among other things, he hasn't bought out deGrom's out yet. He's only been here for one off-season. Indeed. I would offer the same statement. I mean, your declaration is far more conclusive than my own, right?

kcmets Jun 07 2021 03:25 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

But knock yourselves out counting Cohen's beans with your figurative abacuses, one bean at a time. Can't we all ever just talk without this, "I'm smarter than you crap?" Just once?

batmagadanleadoff Jun 07 2021 03:27 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: Edgy MD wrote: Art appreciates far more readily than player contracts. I don't think the evidence is in to support Cohen's desire to spend more profligately than any owner in history. Among other things, he hasn't bought out deGrom's out yet. He's only been here for one off-season. Indeed. I would offer the same statement. I mean, your declaration is far more conclusive than my own, right? Maybe. But Cohen's on a different level. There's no way the Mets are worth $2.6B -- not based on any categories that could be measured accurately. Cohen would've paid $2.8B for the Mets, if that's what would've been required to close the deal, I believe. Or $3B. Or $3.5B. This is monopoly money and ego - psychic value to Cohen. We live in a world where increasingly, the money supply is winding up in the hands of less and less people -- and the people at the top of that triangle have unfathomable wealth. There's only 30 baseball teams and it's not as if they're all up for sale every single year. Cohen's not valuing the Mets the way your accountant would value for you, the corner fruit and vegetables store that you're considering buying. I suppose Cohen has boundaries and limits on what he's willing to invest in the Mets, but I think that they're very flexible, and also, hardly calculated the way a conventional owner of a conventional business would calculate his budget. Anyways, I guess we'll have to wait and see if some other team outspends the Mets to nab a deGrom that's still worth having in the near future

Marshmallowmilkshake Jun 07 2021 03:34 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread. Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jun 07 2021 03:47 PM

As he ages and, presumably, he starts to slow down a little, deGrom is worth more to the Mets than another team. Then again, Frank Cashen thought that about Seaver in 1984, too. (And deGrom is actually getting better as he gets older.) Sandy and Cohen said they weren't going to spend like drunken sailors on free agents older than 30. But I would not be shocked by an over-payment to deGrom to recognize he was underpaid beforehand and to keep him a Met through the end of his career -- which I'd love! The problem is each contract sets the standard for the next, hence Lindor's $341 million after Tatis' $340 million.

MFS62 Jun 07 2021 03:43 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=Marshmallowmilkshake post_id=67199 time=1623101648 user_id=119] The problem is each contract sets the standard for the next, hence Lindor's $341 million after Tatis' $340 million.

I wonder if any owner or GM has offered, or any player or agent asked for, stock (or stock options ) in the club.

Later

batmagadanleadoff Jun 07 2021 03:45 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I read this great anecdote about Steven Cohen recently. I don't remember where I read it but I'm certain that I read it in the last two or three months. It goes something like this (I'm probably improvising a little): Cohen was in a bidding war with another potential buyer for a piece of property -- some expensive luxury home. And the other buyer was outgunned -- Cohen would just constantly raise his bid for the property. Finally, the other buyer ended up practically begging Cohen to back off. In the end the other buyer offered Cohen one million dollars to walk away from the property. One million dollars just to not bid on the property. And Cohen's response was: "What the hell am I gonna do with a million dollars?"

Edgy MD Jun 07 2021 03:52 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=MFS62 post_id=67200 time=1623102210 user_id=60] =Marshmallowmilkshake post_id=67199 time=1623101648 user_id=119] The problem is each contract sets the standard for the next, hence Lindor's $341 million after Tatis' $340 million.

I wonder if any owner or GM has offered, or any player or agent asked for, stock (or stock options ) in the club.

Later


Unfortunately, that's not permitted. It would be a far healthier world if it was.

Ceetar Jun 07 2021 04:10 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I read this great anecdote about Steven Cohen recently. I don't remember where I read it but I'm certain that I read it in the last two or three months. It goes something like this (I'm probably improvising a little): Cohen was in a bidding war with another potential buyer for a piece of property -- some expensive luxury home. And the other buyer was outgunned -- Cohen would just constantly raise his bid for the property. Finally, the other buyer ended up practically begging Cohen to back off. In the end the other buyer offered Cohen one million dollars to walk away from the property. One million dollars just to not bid on the property. And Cohen's response was: "What the hell am I gonna do with a million dollars?" Maybe the Dodgers, Phillies and Blue Jays should've tried buying Cohen off to not lose bidding wars. oh wait..

batmagadanleadoff Jun 07 2021 11:04 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

A bWAR of 15.2 is mind boggling because only one player in all of baseball history (Babe Ruth, 1923) ever had a bWAR higher than 13.0. I should've clarified: Ruth ('23) is the only player to have a bWAR higher than 13.0 in the modern era. Walter Johnson had a bWAR of 13.2 in 1912 -- the deadball ERA. And many pitchers had 14+ bWARs in the 1800's pre deadball era. ________________ Sandy and Cohen said they weren't going to spend like drunken sailors on free agents older than 30. I would give this statement zero weight or credibility. The Mets would make this statement if it were true, but also, if it were false. The Mets wouldn't telegraph their intentions to spend "like drunken sailors".

Centerfield Jun 08 2021 11:06 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I think he waits to see what the terms of the new CBA will be. And assuming no severe penalties, he starts spending big this winter. deGrom, if he continues to be great, will be a Met for life.

roger_that Jun 08 2021 01:07 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=Marshmallowmilkshake post_id=67199 time=1623101648 user_id=119] deGrom is actually getting better as he gets older.

This is true right up to the minute that it isn't. OVERPAY THE MAN NOW!!!!!

bmfc1 Jun 09 2021 07:51 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Projecting Jake's starts until the ASG (going 1, 2, 3, 4, now): 6/11, SD--home 6/16, CHC--home 6/21, ATL--home (WSH misses him as will those of us in the DC area) 6/26, PHI--home (assuming that they keep him on a 5-day plan despite the 6/24 off-day) 7/1, ATL--away (damn, WSH misses him again) 7/6, MIL--home (he misses the NYY series) 7/11, PIT--home (the Sunday before the ASG, jeopardizing his ASG start). If they give him an extra day of rest with the 6/24 off-day: 6/27, PHI--home 7/2, NYY--away (isn't it better for Jake to pitch against ATL than NYY?) 7/7, MIL--home and then he misses the PIT series and is well rested for the ASG but loses a start.

Edgy MD Jun 09 2021 08:16 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=bmfc1 post_id=67435 time=1623289896 user_id=73]7/2, NYY--away (isn't it better for Jake to pitch against ATL than NYY?)

Sure, but Friday night, start of Independence Day weekend, matched up against the headline-hungry crosstown rivals? The TV gods are sure going to want him to go against the Yanks. As low as the impact is on the standings, every and any game against the Yankees has a subtext that lends it the weight of a cup matchup. Folks who make decisions may or may not fall into that.



I'll take it either way. I feel pretty certain that Rojas' decision will be based on (a) whatever's best for deGrom in his head, or (b) if he's devious, whatever is most likely to keep him out of the All-Star Game.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 09 2021 09:04 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: =bmfc1 post_id=67435 time=1623289896 user_id=73]7/2, NYY--away (isn't it better for Jake to pitch against ATL than NYY?) Sure, but Friday night, start of Independence Day weekend, matched up against the headline-hungry crosstown rivals? The TV gods are sure going to want him to go against the Yanks. As low as the impact is on the standings, every and any game against the Yankees has a subtext that lends it the weight of a cup matchup. Folks who make decisions may or may not fall into that. I'll take it either way. I feel pretty certain that Rojas' decision will be based on (a) whatever's best for deGrom in his head, or (b) if he's devious, whatever is most likely to keep him out of the All-Star Game.

Jacob deGrom should be starting every 5th day, and every other Mets pitcher should be moved around as necessary to accommodate this policy. That should be the Mets default position, with adjustments to be made if the 5th day is an off day, or, as Edgy wrote, to have deGrom miss the ASG. The Mets could back off of this policy after they either clinch a post-season berth or are eliminated from the post-season before it begins.



Rate-wise, deGrom is having the best and most dominant pitching season in all of baseball history. And that's probably an understatement. deGrom, rate-wise, might be having the best season ever -- better than any season Babe Ruth or Barry Bonds or anybody else ever put together. Therefore, deGrom should be starting as many games as is reasonably possible. Which is exactly what the Mets will be doing with deGrom this Friday, when deGrom will take the mound on four calendar days rest with two off-days among those last four days. To be honest, I'm pleasantly surprised that deGrom gets this Friday's start. I wasn't counting on that happening, given how the Mets have been coddling deGrom.

Lefty Specialist Jun 12 2021 06:17 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Fingers crossed on the flexor tendon, but Jacob deGrom has more RBI this season (5) than earned runs allowed (4). That is a totally insane statistic. And nobody has ever gotten to 100 strikeouts in fewer innings. Since 1893.

Ceetar Jun 12 2021 08:07 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=67447 time=1623294291 user_id=68] Jacob deGrom should be starting every 5th day, and every other Mets pitcher should be moved around as necessary to accommodate this policy. That should be the Mets default position, with adjustments to be made if the 5th day is an off day, or, as Edgy wrote, to have deGrom miss the ASG. The Mets could back off of this policy after they either clinch a post-season berth or are eliminated from the post-season before it begins.

It feels like deGrom is red-lining through this season. I know there was some talk about keeping him on a regular turn like that early, but he's been surfing extra days and early pulls to try to remain 'healthy'. Given that it might make sense to try the opposite, 'coast' with him a little now, skip a start, long ASB. The Mets are in first place and not being particularly threatened. Time his starts for the Braves or the Phillies and see if you can shake these nagging injuries. Then hopefully in August/September/October you can push him if needed.

kcmets Jun 12 2021 08:09 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I meant to type this in one of the other threads last night -- Jacob was going on about his elbow last night so it's confusing why they keep saying flexor tendon which are in the fingers (see Flexor Tendonits thread). Hopefully he woke up better or same and that there is no inflammation? Both he and Luis were confident that he'll make his next start.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 12 2021 10:15 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

https://img.mlbstatic.com/mlb-images/image/private/t_16x9/t_w1536/mlb/l8ipcfvwuddcfj50ainb.jpg>

batmagadanleadoff Jun 12 2021 12:01 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

If deGrom were to give up just one earned run in his next inning pitched, he'd have to then pitch 15 scoreless innings to get his ERA back to where it is right now (0.56).

batmagadanleadoff Jun 12 2021 12:37 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Best single-season ERA's - they're almost all from the deadball ERA and before - [FIMG=666]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51243495305_49b7c5b50d_c.jpg[/FIMG]

MFS62 Jun 12 2021 12:58 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

SNY reporting that Jacob DeGrom played catch in the outfield before today's game and "felt fine". Everybody can exhale now. Later

batmagadanleadoff Jun 13 2021 12:02 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

With deGrom's near-perfect outing of last Friday, where deGeom faced the minimum number of batters over six innings, allowing just one batter to reach base (on a ground-ball single) before that batter was then thrown out attempting to steal second base -- deGrom now leads the majors in just about every meaningful rate stat - having taken over the major league lead in BB/9 IPs after his last outing with a rate of 1.125 deGrom leads the majors in: ERA - 0.56 WHIP - 0.531 H/9 IP - 3.656 BB/9 IP - 1.125 K/9 IP - 14.484 K/BB - 12.875 ERA+ - 688 FIP - 0.92 Most of these major-league leading numbers would be single-season all-time baseball records should they hold up over the course of the 2021 season. deGrom does need to work on his HR's allowed rate. He only leads the NL, but not the majors, in HR/9 IP. HR/9 IP Leaders Eovaldi, BOS - 0.373 deGrom - NYM - 0.422 Rogers - MIA - 0.476 Gausman - SF - 0.579

Edgy MD Jun 13 2021 06:05 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Should the shift be relaxed when deployed behind deGrom? Is it better to leave the infielders where they are, under the theory that stealing outs from batted balls otherwise destined to be hits is less necessary with him on the mound than simply making the plays on batted balls destined to be outs? Were any of the 18 outs he got Friday on plays executed because of shifted infielders, or was the one out he didn't get the only play the shift affected?

batmagadanleadoff Jun 13 2021 08:18 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: Should the shift be relaxed when deployed behind deGrom? Is it better to leave the infielders where they are, under the theory that stealing outs from batted balls otherwise destined to be hits is less necessary with him on the mound than simply making the plays on batted balls destined to be outs? I say no. Leave the shifts behind deGrom the way they always were. Why would it be less necessary to employ shifts behind deGrom? Answer - only if there's evidence that the balls put in play against deGrom this season are fundamentally different - location and exit velocity wise - than they used to be. Even though batters facing deGrom are necessarily putting the ball in play less often because deGrom is striking batters out at a greater frequency than ever - those fair balls are probably being distributed as they always were. Edgy MD wrote: Were any of the 18 outs he got Friday on plays executed because of shifted infielders, or was the one out he didn't get the only play the shift affected? Who knows? Showing defensive alignments is the weakest part of a televised baseball game. They rarely do it or talk about it, and when they do show defensive alignments, it comes off as random or haphazard. It should be standard protocol to show the defensive alignment for every batter during a televised baseball game .

batmagadanleadoff Jun 13 2021 08:54 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=67748 time=1623564152 user_id=68] With deGrom's near-perfect outing of last Friday, where deGeom faced the minimum number of batters over six innings, allowing just one batter to reach base (on a ground-ball single) before that batter was then thrown out attempting to steal second base -- deGrom now leads the majors in just about every meaningful rate stat - having taken over the major league lead in BB/9 IPs after his last outing with a rate of 1.125 deGrom leads the majors in: ERA - 0.56 WHIP - 0.531 H/9 IP - 3.656 BB/9 IP - 1.125 K/9 IP - 14.484 K/BB - 12.875 ERA+ - 688 FIP - 0.92 Most of these major-league leading numbers would be single-season all-time baseball records should they hold up over the course of the 2021 season.

deGrom's current BB/9 IP walk rate of 1.125 wouldn't even crack the all-time top 150. That list is dominated by 1800's pitchers playing under different rules and 20th century deadball era pitchers.



In fact, today's top 35 list of single-season BB/9IP marks is about exactly how that same list looked 100 years ago.



That's because in the last 100 years, only two pitchers cracked the all-time top 35 for single season BB/9IP.



Which leads to today's QUIZ!



One of those two pitchers cracked the top 35 as a member of the Mets. The Mets!



Name that Mets pitcher and the year he cracked the top 35 of that list. No two-in-a-rowin'.

Lefty Specialist Jun 13 2021 09:23 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Bret Saberhagen 1994?

Edgy MD Jun 13 2021 10:27 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Why would it be less necessary to employ shifts behind deGrom? In theory, because the purpose of the shift is to borrow from the positioning that converts poorly performed at bats into outs in order to better turn well performed at-bat into outs. And there simply isn't cause for that adjustment because there are so few well performed at bats against Jacob deGrom. Or alternatively — again, in theory — because equally distributing the amount of holes in your defense is to best prevent any but the most well struck balls from getting through. And nothing is being well struck. So why allow poorly struck balls tinkle through the massive holes that the shift creates? Edgy MD wrote: Were any of the 18 outs he got Friday on plays executed because of shifted infielders, or was the one out he didn't get the only play the shift affected? Who knows? Well, the data knows, to some extent: Of the 18 outs that Jacob deGrom recorded, 10 were by strikeout. It's theoretically possible that one or more of those strikeouts were aided by the batter trying to hit against the shift, but I wouldn't consider this particularly likely, as (a) people seem desperate enough just to make contact against the guy, and (b) he throws almost no curveballs. Of the remaining eight outs, three were on pop flies caught by infielders. While, again, in theory, shift positioning could have aided in these circumstances, it seems pretty obvious that the best defense against infield flies is traditional defensing with the four infielders evenly distributed around the diamond. The circumstances where pops most typically succeed in dropping in against traditional defenses are the spots on the line directly behind the first and third basemen or in the triangle in front of the centerfielder. All three of the catches on these pops were, as fate would have it, executed by shortstop Francisco Lindor. None were in a position that a traditionally positioned shortstop wouldn't have gotten to it. https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/screen-shot-2021-06-13-at-10.57.52-am.png> https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/screen-shot-2021-06-13-at-10.55.15-am.png> https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/screen-shot-2021-06-13-at-11.09.55-am.png> While those screenshots indicate where the ball came down, but not necessarily how long it was up, you'll have to take it from me that, while the third one was a flare off the handle with not a lot of time aloft, any Met shortstop I've ever seen — including Wilmer Flores but possibly excepting Ruben Tejada immediately following his broken leg — would have gotten to them from a traditional positioning, or a traditional positioning cheating one or two steps left or right. So that's 13 outs unaffected by shifting positively or negatively. Two more outs were executed by outfielders. While those indeed might have been affected by positioning, we're talking about infield positioning here, rather than outfield positioning. I'm happy to look more closely at them if necessary, but let's shelve them. So we're up to fifteen outs. One was our lone baserunner erased on a caught-stealing. No shift leaves secondbase completely unprotected from would-be stealers, so I think we can rule that as unaffected. Sixteen outs. The 17th out as we review (although the 18th chronologically) is a foul out to the thirdbaseman to end the top of the fifth. This is the semi-famous Villar-dancing-among-the-loose-baseballs putout. Let's look at that. [FIMG=600]https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/screen-shot-2021-06-13-at-11.43.17-am.png[/FIMG] Villar has NOT shifted on this play, despite the switch-hitting Jurickson Profar batting from the left side. Again, you're not seeing the full play, but you probably remember it and it's not hard to conclude from this shot that he would have not gotten to this ball had he been in the shift. James McCann may have had a 50-50 shot, as the balls were rolling away from him. So while the shift might well have prevented this out, it certainly didn't make it more likely. So the effectiveness of the shift comes down to two ground-ball plays — the lone ground-ball out, and the lone ground-ball hit. This is very helpful. Interestingly, they came consecutively, and they both came in the secondbaseman's zone. The groundout was effected by Manny Machado. He hit a slow, high-hopper to the right of second. José Peraza, playing to the left of the bag, comes over and gets to it in plenty of time, and gets the surrendering Manny by four long strides. [FIMG=200]https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/screen-shot-2021-06-13-at-12.05.19-pm.png[/FIMG] [FIMG=200]https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/screen-shot-2021-06-13-at-12.05.28-pm.png[/FIMG] [FIMG=200]https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/screen-shot-2021-06-13-at-12.07.36-pm.png[/FIMG] There's actually some ambiguity here. it's a terrifically easy ball to handle, with plenty of time to make the play. But it's not 100% certainty to get to. It's kind of got just a little bit of up-the-middle-hole-ness against a traditionally aligned secondbaseman. Maybe a bad secondbaseman makes that play 85% of the time from a neutral position and 95% of the time with a two step cheat. I'm trying to err on the side of generosity toward the batter here. I made that play when I was 15, and more than once. It's certainly usually an out. The hit — righthanded Will Myers slap through the right side for the lone San Diego baserunner off of deGrom — was struck neither hard nor soft. In fact, it's probably on the softer side of the median. But it's certainly right at a traditional positioning point for a secondbaseman, and easy enough to get to for a secondbaseman cheating two steps toward the middle against a righty. Again, I'm using the Wilmer Flores standard here. This is an out for any team deploying something like traditional infield positioning (or possibly an error). Below shows the hit getting through, starting with the centerfield camera shot, followed by a shot from behind the catcher, and finishing with three shots from the overhead cam behind home plate. [FIMG=200]https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/screen-shot-2021-06-13-at-11.31.51-am.png[/FIMG] [FIMG=200]https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/screen-shot-2021-06-13-at-11.34.07-am.png[/FIMG] [FIMG=200]https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/screen-shot-2021-06-13-at-11.32.24-am.png[/FIMG] [FIMG=200]https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/screen-shot-2021-06-13-at-11.32.38-am.png[/FIMG] [FIMG=200]https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/06/screen-shot-2021-06-13-at-11.32.51-am.png[/FIMG] Also, it's two strikes, when opposite-field hitting is more likely to come into play, even in 2021. So, given that data, it's certainly not a certainty that Jacob deGrom, backed by traditional defense, finishes the sixth inning with a perfect game intact, but it's certainly likely. Beyond that he may still take himself out of the game even with a perfecto. I suspect he doesn't, but what do I know? And it's diddling over one hit. How selfish does that make me? I get a glorious game, but it's perfection I want. But again, traditional defense and perfection is more likely, at least on Friday night. Yeah, so what? It's one game. Eighteen batters worth of data doesn't suggest that the shift has given away more than it has taken, But it certainly is enough to indicate to me that further inquiry is warranted, and maybe traditional defense will get him further.

Marshmallowmilkshake Jun 13 2021 11:00 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Awesome post, Edgy!

dinosaur jesus Jun 13 2021 11:01 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I'd like to see a study, too. It certainly looks like the shift takes away a lot more hits than it gives, but I'd be curious to see the details. I wouldn't put any credence at all in one or two plays in one game. Obviously there will be plays that will be hits against the shift and outs against traditional positioning. But the shift is about playing the odds, and if it pays off even a little more than half the time it's worth it. I also don't understand the point about traditional positioning being more effective when the ball isn't struck well. A well-designed shift puts fielders where the ball is more likely to be hit, whether it's struck well or not. Distributing the fielders for maximum coverage just means putting some of them where they probably won't be needed, just in case they are.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 13 2021 11:02 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Shifts take away one hit on average, every four or five games. Eight outs on BABIP is a tiny sample size.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 13 2021 11:04 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

dinosaur jesus wrote: I wouldn't put any credence at all in one or two plays in one game. Obviously there will be plays that will be hits against the shift and outs against traditional positioning. But the shift is about playing the odds, and if it pays off even a little more than half the time it's worth it. I also don't understand the point about traditional positioning being more effective when the ball isn't struck well. A well-designed shift puts fielders where the ball is more likely to be hit, whether it's struck well or not. Distributing the fielders for maximum coverage just means putting some of them where they probably won't be needed, just in case they are. Exactly!

batmagadanleadoff Jun 13 2021 11:07 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

dinosaur jesus wrote: I wouldn't put any credence at all in one or two plays in one game. Obviously there will be plays that will be hits against the shift and outs against traditional positioning. But the shift is about playing the odds, and if it pays off even a little more than half the time it's worth it. I also don't understand the point about traditional positioning being more effective when the ball isn't struck well. A well-designed shift puts fielders where the ball is more likely to be hit, whether it's struck well or not. Distributing the fielders for maximum coverage just means putting some of them where they probably won't be needed, just in case they are. Exactly! Plus, teams are sophisticated. They have the data they need to make these decisions. We don't. If teams are still shifting -- and they are, more than ever -- then we can assume that it's because the shifts are working.

Edgy MD Jun 13 2021 11:13 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I believe teams have a lot of data available to them. I don't think it necessarily follows that they are sophisticated in their decision-making. Or correct in their decision-making.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 13 2021 11:25 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

There's also a chicken-egg thing going on here with shifts. Pitchers pitch to the shift. So when a team shifts an extra infielder to the right side against a left-handed hitter who tends to pull the ball frequently, and maybe also swings the outfield rightward as well, the pitcher isn't about to throw outside pitches to the lefty hitter.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 13 2021 04:30 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Lefty Specialist wrote: Bret Saberhagen 1994? Hey! You won. I forgot about this quiz.

Ceetar Jun 14 2021 11:24 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

it's absolutely a cat and mouse game, shifting, and on so many levels. guys try to make adjustments, swing later, etc. Or the league selects for power, which I guess ties into some of the arguments. I know some are always like "hit/bunt it the other way! Or have more players that use the whole field!" instead baseball selected for guys that hit it OVER the shift, because that value is much greater, and if converting more soft hits to outs than before, it makes the difference between putting the ball in play and striking out even smaller. Arguably some of the solution is to have 4 outfielders. Austin Meadows hits it in the air 56.5% of the time. I bet you could cover most of the spots on the infield he's gonna hit it with 3 guys. As for deGrom. The Mets are clearly shifting more in general. They've shifted on 82/111 lefty PA and 37/112 righty ones. They're looking at _something_. [attachment=0]chart (1).png[/attachment] This is 2019-2021. There's no reason to ever play deGrom up the middle.

Edgy MD Jun 14 2021 12:13 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

dinosaur jesus wrote: I wouldn't put any credence at all in one or two plays in one game. Well, I tried to state that the data are too small to be conclusive, and only indicated a deeper dive being necessary. dinosaur jesus wrote: I also don't understand the point about traditional positioning being more effective when the ball isn't struck well. Generally speaking, the more well struck a ball is, the more you are slave to the hope that it is going right at somebody. The less well struck a ball is, the more right you have to hope that somebody can get to it. I think indeed that well struck balls hew more closely to the pattern on a player's spray chart than poorly struck balls, which distribute more randomly, but this is an hypothesis I have not investigated.

Ceetar Jun 14 2021 12:54 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

another spray chart from baseball savant. There's no legend, but I think darker is frequency, blue is out red is hit? [attachment=0]spray.png[/attachment]

batmagadanleadoff Jun 14 2021 06:55 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

it's absolutely a cat and mouse game, shifting, and on so many levels. guys try to make adjustments, swing later, etc. Or the league selects for power, which I guess ties into some of the arguments. I know some are always like "hit/bunt it the other way! Or have more players that use the whole field!" instead baseball selected for guys that hit it OVER the shift, because that value is much greater, and if converting more soft hits to outs than before, it makes the difference between putting the ball in play and striking out even smaller. Arguably some of the solution is to have 4 outfielders. Austin Meadows hits it in the air 56.5% of the time. I bet you could cover most of the spots on the infield he's gonna hit it with 3 guys. As for deGrom. The Mets are clearly shifting more in general. They've shifted on 82/111 lefty PA and 37/112 righty ones. They're looking at _something_. [FIMG=444]http://phpbb3.ultimatemets.com/download/file.php?id=4[/FIMG] This is 2019-2021. There's no reason to ever play deGrom up the middle. These charts don't advance this conversation much. Youse are forgetting that shifts are determined on a case by case basis ... on a batter by batter basis ... not based on how the league as a whole hits against a certain pitcher. Teams will shift against a batter because he tends to hit a disproportionately high number of batted balls to a concentrated area. It's easier to predict where that kind of batter will hit the ball so it makes sense to shift more fielders where his batted balls tend to go.

Edgy MD Jun 14 2021 07:05 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Sure, but it's a two-factor question. Where the ball is likely to go is a product of both the batter and the pitcher.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 15 2021 12:58 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Given 'his stats are beyond amazing,' New York Mets ace Jacob deGrom becomes betting favorite to win NL MVP award https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/31631796/given-stats-amazing-new-york-mets-ace-jacob-degrom-becomes-betting-favorite-win-nl-mvp

Ceetar Jun 15 2021 01:09 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Hitters Shouldn't Swing Against Jacob deGrom

batmagadanleadoff Jun 16 2021 09:53 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Jacob deGrom “Pretty Confident” He Avoided Serious Injury By Anthony Franco | June 16, 2021 at 9:30pm CDT 9:30 pm: deGrom met with reporters (including Deesha Thosar of the New York Daily News) after the game and downplayed the current issue. While he admitted he's frustrated with the series of developments, deGrom suggested he didn't believe the three health problems were related and, more importantly, sounded confident he'd avoided any serious injury. “I think it's three separate issues. I think the lat was something to do with the swing. The elbow I didn't think too much of, like I said I was pretty confident that that was nothing. And I'm pretty confident that this is nothing.” Manager Luis Rojas said deGrom's prognosis will become clearer after he undergoes further testing tomorrow, but that the initial report was “encouraging” (via Tim Britton of the Athletic). https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2021/06/jacob-degrom-leaves-early-with-right-shoulder-soreness.html ___________ New York Mets ace Jacob deGrom exits with shoulder soreness, 'confident that this is nothing' New York Mets ace Jacob deGrom will get an MRI on his right shoulder on Thursday after leaving Wednesday's start against the visiting Chicago Cubs because of soreness. "I felt good warming up, felt really good in the first and second innings, then there in the third my shoulder was sore," deGrom said after the Mets' 6-3 win. "This is getting old. I want to be out there competing instead of coming out of these games with these little [things]." [***] After the game, deGrom did get some encouraging news; tests on his right shoulder showed no decline in strength when compared to his left one. "I think it's three separate issues," deGrom said of his injuries this season. "I think the lat was something to do with the swing. The elbow I didn't think too much of...I was pretty confident that that was nothing. And I'm pretty confident that this is nothing. We did some tests and ruled out anything serious." Mets manager Luis Rojas added: "During the game I got a report. We can call it an encouraging report." DeGrom was asked if he thought his uptick in velocity this season has anything to do with his nagging ailments. "I don't know," he answered. "I don't know the answer to that....I don't know where to place the blame." https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/31647632/new-york-mets-ace-jacob-degrom-exits-start-early-shoulder-soreness TBD Meanwhile, deGrom faced the minimum possible 27 batters over his last nine innings pitched, allowing just one slow ground-ball single, while walking none and striking out 18.

dinosaur jesus Jun 16 2021 10:04 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Christ, man. Something's breaking down. Maybe figure it out before you go out there again and strain some other part of your body?

smg58 Jun 17 2021 06:48 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I'd have been far more impressed with 230 IP than I am with 100 mph. Now he'll be lucky to get half that. The MVP talk stops now.

Ceetar Jun 17 2021 06:52 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Maybe he's right, he's been right pretty much every time so far, but I don't see how you just let him make his next start like this. Presumably it'd be Monday vs the Braves. I dunno. He hasn't thrown more than 85 pitches in a game since April, so it 's not like it's a workload thing. But that was two starts ago and then he had problems. Could he be building up too fast? If he wakes up feeling fine again, throws a fine bullpen, can you just let him throw 5 innings and like 60 pitches against the Braves and come out early? What if he's 2 IP from a "no hitter"? pitching is rough. But he's still 7th in Ks with like no innings and first in rWAR. Obviously he won't be the MVP if he gets IL'd again, but if he pitches 160+ innings like he's roughly on pace for, like this? it'll be no doubt.

Lefty Specialist Jun 17 2021 07:03 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Humans are not designed to throw baseballs at 100 mph over and over in the course of three hours. While he says the problems are not related, I think they're all related to this fact.

Ceetar Jun 17 2021 07:34 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Lefty Specialist wrote: Humans are not designed to throw baseballs at 100 mph over and over in the course of three hours. While he says the problems are not related, I think they're all related to this fact. pitching is harsh on the body. it's not like there's speed regulators in the arm, it's the throwing fastballs thing, not that it's 101 instead of 98 or 95. There hasn't really been any conclusive science that really consistently shows what is or isn't causing injuries.

Centerfield Jun 17 2021 08:39 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

It's 10:38 a.m. I'm not one to criticize doctors, but what the fuck could the radiologist have had on his plate that's more important than deGrom's shoulder?!!?!?!? "Doc, I might have a tumor" I'm sorry to hear that. Can you just wait over there for a bit? We have some magazines, and help yourself to the water cooler.

Fman99 Jun 17 2021 09:47 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Seriously, right? You may be dying, but you can't even hit 80 MPH on a radar gun. So go over there and eat some shit till I call you.

Edgy MD Jun 17 2021 09:53 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I've upped my standards in recent years. I refuse to patronize any doctor that keeps a bowl of shit next to the water cooler.

Ceetar Jun 17 2021 12:08 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I haven't been in a doctor's office in quite a while. Do they even have any of that now? water coolers, magazines, bowls of shit?

G-Fafif Jun 17 2021 12:21 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/jonheyman/status/1405590122175864840[/tweet]

Edgy MD Jun 17 2021 12:26 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

It would be more enjoyable, I think, if we can take it one day at a time, one batter at a time, and save the MVP calls for further down the line.

dinosaur jesus Jun 17 2021 12:28 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

If there seems to be something wrong with me, and the doctor says he can't find anything, I don't get much relief from that. I want the doctor to tell me what's wrong, and whether it's serious or not. This is the fourth time this year doctors have said he's fine.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 17 2021 12:29 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: It would be more enjoyable, I think, if we can take it one day at a time, one batter at a time, and save the MVP calls for further down the line. I agree. He's not going to be an MVP or a Cy Young if he only ends up pitching 80 innings.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 17 2021 12:37 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/jonheyman/status/1405590122175864840[/tweet] What do the Mets mean by "second opinion ": a second MRI or a second opinion of the first MRI?

batmagadanleadoff Jun 17 2021 12:43 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

dinosaur jesus wrote: If there seems to be something wrong with me, and the doctor says he can't find anything, I don't get much relief from that. I want the doctor to tell me what's wrong, and whether it's serious or not. This is the fourth time this year doctors have said he's fine. I wonder if there are some pitcher injuries that, though they are festering inside of the pitcher's body, can't be diagnosed until they get to the point where they are so severe that the pitcher has to be IL'ed.

G-Fafif Jun 17 2021 12:57 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Find something, just not anything wrong.

Edgy MD Jun 17 2021 02:09 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

dinosaur jesus wrote: If there seems to be something wrong with me, and the doctor says he can't find anything, I don't get much relief from that. I want the doctor to tell me what's wrong, and whether it's serious or not. This is the fourth time this year doctors have said he's fine. I wonder if there are some pitcher injuries that, though they are festering inside of the pitcher's body, can't be diagnosed until they get to the point where they are so severe that the pitcher has to be IL'ed. Intuitively, I'd say sure. I mean, that pain following a game isn't just fatigue and swelling. It's an uncountable numbers of micro-tears and micro-strains. We ask all of them to heal in between starts while knowing that they never quite due. The not-quite-healed ones accumulate and compound and you hope to get to the end of the season before they accumulate and compound into something that can't heal on it's own. Eventually, though, you don't. It is true, as said above, that we just aren't engineered for this activity. Maybe somebody will create a surgery someday that inverts the shoulder to point upwards. Until then, teach your kids to sidearm, or better yet, to submarine.

Frayed Knot Jun 17 2021 02:28 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

What do the Mets mean by "second opinion ": a second MRI or a second opinion of the first MRI? Rodney Dangerfield: I went to the doctor and he told me I was fat. I told him I wanted a second opinion so he said, 'OK, you're ugly too'

batmagadanleadoff Jun 17 2021 04:12 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Second Opinion The skinny: -deGrom's MRI is normal -Mets will take it one day at a time -deGrom won't be IL'ed, barring a change in circumstances -deGrom "played catch" today - everything normal and unenventful -deGrom's next start TBD Jacob deGrom's MRI clean; New York Mets taking 'day-by-day approach' An MRI performed on New York Mets ace Jacob deGrom's right shoulder came back clean, manager Luis Rojas said Thursday. The results were examined by two doctors. "We had an MRI taken on him and ran it through two doctors just to have a second opinion, as well, and both doctors had the same prognosis from the imaging: It just shows as a normal shoulder a pitcher would have and there's no concern," Rojas said, adding that deGrom played catch Thursday. Rojas said that the team plans to take "a day-by-day approach" with deGrom and that there are no plans right now to place him on the injured list. The Mets also aren't sure when he'll make his next start. Editor's Picks "I don't see how it would change today, doing an IL stint," Rojas said. "It's going to be a normal shoulder in 10 days. I'm less concerned [because] he's playing catch today." DeGrom left Wednesday night's start against the Chicago Cubs with shoulder soreness. It marked the third time he has left a start with an injury this season, including Friday against the San Diego Padres with elbow soreness and May 9 against the Arizona Diamondbacks after five innings with right side tightness. Rojas said Thursday that none of deGrom's injuries are connected. "This is an isolated thing from the right forearm or the flexor tendinitis," Rojas reiterated. "It's something that happened yesterday. We checked him after the game and checked him today, and everything is normal." DeGrom, 32, struck out eight of the nine batters he faced over three innings, and he drove in a run with an RBI single in the second inning. The Mets aren't ruling anything out in terms of what caused his latest ailment, including even the possibility of it happening on a swing at the plate or simply because of how hard he throws. DeGrom has the highest average fastball velocity (99.2 mph) of anyone in baseball. "We want to pay attention to this thing, on a day-by-day approach," Rojas said. DeGrom's three shutout innings Wednesday lowered his ERA to 0.54 -- he has given up only four earned runs all year -- while his RBI gave him six on the season. He has 111 strikeouts in 67 innings. https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/31654059/jacob-degrom-mri-clean-new-york-mets-taking-day-day

Ceetar Jun 17 2021 05:12 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

"it just shows as a normal shoulder a pitcher would have and there's no concern," those two things are mutually exclusive and you absolutely won't phrase it that way if it was "nothing", it certainly wasn't "no issues" as Heyman editorializes.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 18 2021 05:54 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat. Panic. Relief. Repeat. The beat goes on... 2017 http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2017/20170422_NYDN_02a.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2017/20170423_NYDN_02.jpg> 2018 http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2018/20180228_NYDN_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2018/20180503_NSD_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2018/20180503_NYDN_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2018/20180503_NYP_02.jpg> 2019 http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2019/20190420_NSD_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2019/20190420_NYDN_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2019/20190420_NYP_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2019/20190423_NSD_02.jpg> 2020 http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2020/20200716_NSD_02.jpg> 2021 http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2021/20210510_NSD_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2021/20210510_NYDN_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2021/20210511_NSD_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2021/20210511_NYDN_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2021/20210612_NSD_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2021/20210612_NYDN_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2021/20210612_NYP_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2021/20210617_NSD_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2021/20210617_NYDN_02.jpg> http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2021/20210618_NYDN_02.jpg>

Edgy MD Jun 18 2021 06:13 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I'm not sure how to read it, but there's both an interesting narrative in that folder of yours, and perhaps an illuminating health history file.

MFS62 Jun 18 2021 06:28 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Illuminating for sure. Those tests have used up enough electricity to light up CitiField. Later

bmfc1 Jun 18 2021 06:37 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

If it wasn't for the facial hair, those covers could have been interchangeable--unfortunately.

bmfc1 Jun 18 2021 06:39 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=bmfc1 post_id=67435 time=1623289896 user_id=73] Projecting Jake's starts until the ASG (going 1, 2, 3, 4, now): 6/11, SD--home 6/16, CHC--home 6/21, ATL--home (WSH misses him as will those of us in the DC area) 6/26, PHI--home (assuming that they keep him on a 5-day plan despite the 6/24 off-day) 7/1, ATL--away (damn, WSH misses him again) 7/6, MIL--home (he misses the NYY series) 7/11, PIT--home (the Sunday before the ASG, jeopardizing his ASG start). If they give him an extra day of rest with the 6/24 off-day: 6/27, PHI--home 7/2, NYY--away (isn't it better for Jake to pitch against ATL than NYY?) 7/7, MIL--home and then he misses the PIT series and is well rested for the ASG but loses a start.

What an assh*le! I tempted fate by making plans and the baseball gods laughed.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 18 2021 03:09 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

The NY Post is publishing about a million articls a day calling for deGrom to be IL'ed. Mets would take huge Jacob deGrom risk by ignoring common sense Excerpt: I don't believe it. I refuse to buy into the notion that Jacob deGrom, after departing each of his past two starts with two different arm injuries, will take the mound again Monday against the Braves at Citi Field and act as though everything is fine. As though the third time will be the charm. https://nypost.com/2021/06/17/mets-cant-ignore-common-sense-jacob-degrom-injury-choice/

LWFS Jun 18 2021 03:32 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

The NY Post is publishing about a million articls a day calling for deGrom to be IL'ed. Mets would take huge Jacob deGrom risk by ignoring common sense Excerpt: I don't believe it. I refuse to buy into the notion that Jacob deGrom, after departing each of his past two starts with two different arm injuries, will take the mound again Monday against the Braves at Citi Field and act as though everything is fine. As though the third time will be the charm. https://nypost.com/2021/06/17/mets-cant-ignore-common-sense-jacob-degrom-injury-choice/ On the one hand, it's grating. On the other hand, it's impressive that they can publish so often, in between all those ranty calls to the FAN and hours of angry tweets.

Edgy MD Jun 18 2021 03:35 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

The last start was the third time. There have been three recent injuries. I support being cautious, but if you cannot detect what problem there is, the question must be asked: "What is the end game?" He has pain one day and none the next. He throws his bullpen session at 85-90%. Still no pain. You decide to be extra cautious and skip a start. Fine, but why not two? Why not four? What exactly are we looking for? All the news is good, and the only further way to get news is to go ahead. Sometimes, you've got to feel your way forward. It sucks, but that's part of the process too. Continuing on creates more danger, but nets more information too.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 18 2021 04:37 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Maybe Jacob is just hyper sensitive to every twinge that pitchers generally feel? Look at the cover gallery above. There have been a number of times, over several years, where he reports something, gets an MRI, and then he gets a bill of health. Ron Darling said something about how in his day, if a pitcher did that he'd be called a word that he can't say on the air. (It's cable, but whatever. My guess is that the word is "pussy".) I think this is just going to be the deal with deGrom. Sure, one day one of these injuries may cause him to miss an extended period of time (as one did at the end of 2016) but we'll have to get used to him occasionally pulling himself out of a game early. He's said that he wants to pitch until he's 40 or older and he's clearly doing what he can now to increase his chances of having a long career.

Lefty Specialist Jun 18 2021 04:45 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

If this were any other pitcher, he'd have been IL'd by now. But deGrom seems to be driving the bus here, self examining his tendon and pronouncing himself OK, then pulling himself out at the first new twinge. He's gonna make that start against the Braves. I dread what happens next.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 22 2021 03:19 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Wins Above Replacement--all 1. deGrom • NYM 4.5 2. Wheeler • PHI 4.5 3. Gausman • SFG 3.9 4. Woodruff • MIL 3.6 5. Tatis • SDP 3.4 6. Muncy • LAD 3.3 7. Cronenworth • SDP 3.2 8. Miley • CIN 3.1 9. Reynolds • PIT 3.0 10. Acuna • ATL 2.9 WAR for Pitchers 1. Wheeler • PHI 4.3 2. deGrom • NYM 3.9 3. Gausman • SFG 3.9 4. Woodruff • MIL 3.8 5. Miley • CIN 3.0 6. Rogers • MIA 2.8 7. Peralta • MIL 2.8 8. Buehler • LAD 2.7 9. Bauer • LAD 2.6 10. Anderson • ATL 2.5 Earned Run Average 1. deGrom • NYM 0.50 2. Gausman • SFG 1.51 3. Rogers • MIA 1.87 4. Woodruff • MIL 1.94 5. Wheeler • PHI 2.15 6. Scherzer • WSN 2.21 7. Musgrove • SDP 2.28 8. Peralta • MIL 2.28 9. Stroman • NYM 2.35 10. Buehler • LAD 2.38 Wins 1. Urias • LAD 9 Hendricks • CHC 9 3. Suter • MIL 8 Flaherty • STL 8 Gausman • SFG 8 Kershaw • LAD 8 7. deGrom • NYM 7 DeSclafani • SFG 7 Bauer • LAD 7 Rogers • MIA 7 Mahle • CIN 7 Buehler • LAD 7 Darvish • SDP 7 Win-Loss % 1. Gausman • SFG .889 Flaherty • STL .889 3. DeSclafani • SFG .778 Darvish • SDP .778 Mahle • CIN .778 deGrom • NYM .778 7. Urias • LAD .750 Peralta • MIL .750 9. Suter • MIL .727 10. Rogers • MIA .700 Walks & Hits per IP 1. deGrom • NYM 0.514 2. Woodruff • MIL 0.761 3. Gausman • SFG 0.770 4. Scherzer • WSN 0.815 5. Musgrove • SDP 0.848 6. Peralta • MIL 0.867 7. Buehler • LAD 0.904 8. Darvish • SDP 0.922 9. Wheeler • PHI 0.934 10. Bauer • LAD 0.941 Hits per 9 IP 1. deGrom • NYM 3.375 2. Peralta • MIL 4.320 3. Woodruff • MIL 4.909 4. Gausman • SFG 5.019 5. Bauer • LAD 5.456 6. Scherzer • WSN 5.586 7. Musgrove • SDP 5.696 8. Darvish • SDP 6.100 9. Buehler • LAD 6.254 10. Rogers • MIA 6.282 Bases On Balls per 9 IP 1. Eflin • PHI 1.071 2. deGrom • NYM 1.250 3. Kershaw • LAD 1.528 4. Urias • LAD 1.739 5. Scherzer • WSN 1.746 6. Buehler • LAD 1.886 7. Hendricks • CHC 1.897 8. Gausman • SFG 1.907 9. Musgrove • SDP 1.937 10. Woodruff • MIL 1.943 Strikeouts per 9 IP 1. deGrom • NYM 14.625 2. Peralta • MIL 12.480 3. Scherzer • WSN 12.103 4. Mahle • CIN 11.260 5. Bauer • LAD 11.195 6. Musgrove • SDP 11.165 7. Wheeler • PHI 11.024 8. Darvish • SDP 10.800 9. Kershaw • LAD 10.596 10. Rogers • MIA 10.469 Innings Pitched 1. Wheeler • PHI 96.1 2. Bauer • LAD 95.2 3. Alcantara • MIA 93.1 4. Buehler • LAD 90.2 5. Darvish • SDP 90.0 6. Gausman • SFG 89.2 7. Kershaw • LAD 88.1 8. Urias • LAD 88.0 Woodruff • MIL 88.0 10. Wainwright • STL 86.2 . . . deGrom • NYM 72 Strikeouts 1. Bauer • LAD 119 2. Wheeler • PHI 118 3. deGrom • NYM 117 4. Burnes • MIL 108 Darvish • SDP 108 6. Peralta • MIL 104 Scherzer • WSN 104 Kershaw • LAD 104 9. Gausman • SFG 103 10. Woodruff • MIL 102 Strikeouts / Base On Balls 1. deGrom • NYM 11.700 2. Eflin • PHI 8.300 3. Scherzer • WSN 6.933 Kershaw • LAD 6.933 5. Musgrove • SDP 5.765 6. Urias • LAD 5.588 7. Gausman • SFG 5.421 8. Woodruff • MIL 5.368 9. Wheeler • PHI 5.364 10. Darvish • SDP 4.909 Home Runs per 9 IP 1. deGrom • NYM 0.375 2. Rogers • MIA 0.441 3. Gausman • SFG 0.602 4. Walker • NYM 0.605 5. Wheeler • PHI 0.654 6. Marquez • COL 0.656 7. Anderson • ATL 0.714 8. Davies • CHC 0.736 9. Alcantara • MIA 0.771 10. Woodruff • MIL 0.8 Adjusted ERA+ 1. deGrom • NYM 777 2. Gausman • SFG 263 3. Rogers • MIA 216 4. Woodruff • MIL 210 5. Wheeler • PHI 182 6. Peralta • MIL 179 7. Scherzer • WSN 172 8. Stroman • NYM 165 9. Musgrove • SDP 162 10. Walker • NYM 160 Fielding Independent Pitching 1. deGrom • NYM 0.87 2. Gausman • SFG 2.37 3. Wheeler • PHI 2.44 4. Rogers • MIA 2.50 5. Kershaw • LAD 2.75 6. Woodruff • MIL 2.78 7. Peralta • MIL 2.89 8. Walker • NYM 3.02 9. Scherzer • WSN 3.06 10. Musgrove • SDP 3.1 Adj. Pitching Runs 1. deGrom • NYM 27 2. Gausman • SFG 25 3. Woodruff • MIL 21 4. Wheeler • PHI 20 5. Rogers • MIA 19 6. Buehler • LAD 16 7. Peralta • MIL 16 8. Scherzer • WSN 15 9. Bauer • LAD 14 10. Musgrove • SDP 14 Adj. Pitching Wins 1. deGrom • NYM 3.1 2. Gausman • SFG 2.8 3. Woodruff • MIL 2.3 4. Wheeler • PHI 2.2 5. Rogers • MIA 2.1 6. Buehler • LAD 1.7 7. Peralta • MIL 1.7 8. Scherzer • WSN 1.6 9. Bauer • LAD 1.5 10. Musgrove • SDP 1.5 Base-Out Runs Saved (RE24) 1. deGrom • NYM 28.33 2. Gausman • SFG 27.05 3. Woodruff • MIL 26.07 4. Wheeler • PHI 24.61 5. Buehler • LAD 22.63 6. Rogers • MIA 20.98 7. Peralta • MIL 19.74 8. Scherzer • WSN 18.50 9. Bauer • LAD 16.55 10. Musgrove • SDP 16.35 Win Probability Added (WPA) 1. Hader • MIL 3.3 2. deGrom • NYM 2.9 3. Woodruff • MIL 2.9 4. Wheeler • PHI 2.7 5. Gausman • SFG 2.6 6. Tepera • CHC 2.3 7. Kimbrel • CHC 2.3 8. Rogers • MIA 2.2 9. Antone • CIN 2.1 10. Melancon • SDP 2.1 Sit. Wins Saved (WPA/LI) 1. deGrom • NYM 3.2 2. Gausman • SFG 2.7 3. Woodruff • MIL 2.7 4. Wheeler • PHI 2.4 5. Peralta • MIL 2.4 6. Rogers • MIA 2.1 7. Scherzer • WSN 2.1 8. Bauer • LAD 1.8 9. Buehler • LAD 1.7 10. Musgrove • SDP 1.6 Championship WPA (cWPA) 1. Hader • MIL 2.4 2. deGrom • NYM 2.3 3. Woodruff • MIL 2.0 4. Tepera • CHC 1.7 5. Kimbrel • CHC 1.7 6. Gausman • SFG 1.7 7. Buehler • LAD 1.5 8. Melancon • SDP 1.5 9. Wheeler • PHI 1.5 10. Stroman • NYM 1.4 Base-Out Wins Saved (REW) 1. deGrom • NYM 3.4 2. Gausman • SFG 3.1 3. Woodruff • MIL 2.9 4. Wheeler • PHI 2.8 5. Buehler • LAD 2.6 6. Rogers • MIA 2.3 7. Peralta • MIL 2.2 8. Scherzer • WSN 2.1 9. Musgrove • SDP 1.9 10. Bauer • LAD 1.8 https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/2021-pitching-leaders.shtml

roger_that Jun 22 2021 07:35 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Somebody remind me why we didn't resign Zach Wheeler?

Benjamin Grimm Jun 22 2021 08:02 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Their names are Fred and Jeff.

Edgy MD Jun 22 2021 08:12 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Hey, let's not forget Brodie Volkswagon. He HAPPENED.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 22 2021 08:30 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

... and because two was cheaper than one. (Wacha and Porcello).

batmagadanleadoff Jun 22 2021 10:45 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

deGrom's ERA is 0.50. That's half an earned run a game (nine innings). Or one earned run every two games (18 innings). So if deGrom were to give up one earned run in his next inning pitched, he'd have to then pitch 17 consecutive scoreless innings to get his ERA back to where it is right now (one inning short of two complete game nine-inning shutouts). That's one way to look at deGrom's ERA. Also, deGrom's on a 30 consecutive scoreless innings pitched streak, three innings short of the Mets all-time record (32.2 innings) set by R.A. Dickey in 2012.

roger_that Jun 23 2021 11:42 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

... and because two was cheaper than one. (Wacha and Porcello). Huh. This is like "No, I'll have two pounds of chicken feathers instead of the one pound of chicken breast. And you say my dining choice actually costs LESS? Way cool!"

Edgy MD Jun 23 2021 12:04 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=68856 time=1624423557 user_id=68]So if deGrom were to give up one earned run in his next inning pitched, he'd have to then pitch 17 consecutive scoreless innings to get his ERA back to where it is right now (one inning short of two complete game nine-inning shutouts). That's one way to look at deGrom's ERA.

That's pretty much what he did since the last time his ERA was at 0.50 and he gave up an earnie.



deGrom's second-placiness behind Josh Hader in WPA pulls into something like a dead heat when you include his batting WAR.



Hader retains sole custody of first place in the category of racist tweets, however.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 23 2021 12:24 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: deGrom's second-placiness behind Josh Hader in WPA pulls into something like a dead heat when you include his batting WAR. I don't put much stock in WPA. It favors relievers, especially closers, because they tend to pitch high leverage at-bats. If you believe in that stuff. I believe that striking out a batter in the 4th inning is just about as big as getting the last out of a game.

Edgy MD Jun 23 2021 12:30 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I certainly believe in high-leverage at-bats.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 23 2021 12:42 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: I certainly believe in high-leverage at-bats. I think it's like clutch hits: I celebrate them but I don't think that clutch hitting is an indepedent skill. Likewise, I'll celebrate the Mets reliever who strikes out the last two batters in the ninth with a runner on third to presserve the one run win -- but I'm certain that the pitcher who struck out two batters four innings ago could've done the same. Anyways, the big story with deGrom, I think, is his WHIP and H/9 innings allowed. That's where I think all the focus should be on instead of on his invisible ERA. deGrom's about as perfect as a pitcher ever was this season. Nobody's even getting on base against him. That's the real story and that should be the focus. His ERA is merely a function of his minuscule WHIP and hits allowed. Nobody's even getting on base against deGrom -- never mind coming around to score. But everybody's more comfortable with ERA. It's been around forever and most fans can gauge an ERA much easier than a WHIP. deGrom's allowed just four earned runs all season long - three of them on solo HR"s. And that distribution makes perfect sense once you take note of his WHIP. The way deGrom's been pitching, it's practically impossible for the opposition to put together a rally consisting of several batters getting on base. Opposing teams can't even count on productive outs to advance the rare base-runner because deGrom's striking out batters at an all-time historical rate. So their best chance to score against deGrom, given how dominating he is this season is to hope that the fair ball is hit far enough to go over the outfield wall. Score on one swing because there ain't gonna be many other chances. Anyways, deGrom's allowing about three hits per nine innings. That's the story, I think.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 25 2021 12:29 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Cubs Patrick Wisdom, on facing deGrom: On today's Pardon My Take... PATRICK WISDOM! The rising star for the Chicago Cubs joined Mr. Cat and Mr. Commenter on today's show to discuss .... Patrick Wisdom: Yeah, it was major suck. [deGrom] shoved it last night, it's like going into a test knowing you're going to fail, like there's nothing you can do. He's just going to overpower you and you're going to walk back to the dugout saying, "I don't know what I'm doing out here." Mr. Commenter: Just answer "C" every time and maybe one out of every four times, it will be right. You've got to like sit on one pitch, so a guy like that, is there just one pitch that you're waiting for, you're like, "Maybe I'll get a slider that doesn't break." Patrick Wisdom: Yeah, or it's maybe the 100 MPH fastball that you try to hit. But, I mean, the first pitch, I barely even saw. Like, it hit the glove and I'm like, "Huh." Mr. Cat: Really? Because it's that fast and that much movement and everything... Patrick Wisdom: It explodes out of his hand, and it gains speed as it gets to the glove. It was something I'd never seen before, obviously. https://www.barstoolsports.com/podcast/3370289/cubs-third-baseman-patrick-wisdom-explains-what-it-is-like-to-step-in-the-batters-box-and-face-jacob-degrom

bmfc1 Jun 27 2021 11:15 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Luis said that Jake is scheduled to pitch 3 more times before the All-Star break: July 1 at Atlanta, July 6 vs. Milwaukee and July 11 at Pittsburgh. This means that he misses the NYY (and a matchup with Cole, which is what the writers are bemoaning) and more than an inning in the ASG but 3 starts are better than 2 starts (he should live and be well.)

batmagadanleadoff Jun 27 2021 09:44 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Looks like the June 2021 NL Pitcher of the Month award should be a no-contest affair. Use the scroll bar at the bottom of the post to navigate the FanGraphs stats boxes, which are wider than the box that holds this post. June 2021 stats only - NL starters: ranked by fWAR [FIMG=999]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51276242664_2f4032a63a_h.jpg[/FIMG] ranked by WHIP [FIMG=999]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51276242634_525b39415d_h.jpg[/FIMG] ranked by FIP [FIMG=999]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51275511446_6745b56241_h.jpg[/FIMG] ranked by ERA [FIMG=999]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51275511426_a69c7a1c76_h.jpg[/FIMG] ranked by OPP. AVG. [FIMG=999]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51274764582_9f385a7c3e_h.jpg[/FIMG]

batmagadanleadoff Jul 01 2021 04:48 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Catching up with R.A. Dickey. R.A. Dickey on the joy of watching Jacob deGrom pitch, his 2012 Cy Young season & life after baseball Nine years ago, baseball's best pitcher was a 37-year-old throwing 75 mile per hour knuckleballs. Today, as he watches Jacob deGrom rain fire over the league with a totally different pitching style, R.A. Dickey can still relate to that feeling of Citi Field's mound transforming into a throne. “I can certainly understand the space he might be in where he feels like he can do anything on the mound,” Dickey says of deGrom, who he occasionally exchanges texts with. “You don't get that very often, if ever. Standing on the mound knowing the ball will do what you want it to do, that is such a rare thing. He's in a different league than me, man.” Calling from his forty acre farm in Franklin, Tenn., the 2012 Cy Young winner says he keeps a close eye on his former team. When he's not coaching his teenage son's travel ball team — a culture that by his own words can be “very toxic from a lot of different standpoints” — or tending to his pig Meatball, Dickey tunes in like the rest of us to marvel at the pitcher who he says might be the best he's ever seen. “I keep telling my son that he's watching a once-in-a-generation player,” Dickey tells the Daily News. “It almost becomes more flavorful when he struggles, right? If he were to give up six runs in two innings that would be on the front page. But if he's shutting people out it's ho-hum.” Along with farm and father duties, Dickey keeps busy by playing pickup basketball three times a week at a nearby high school and serving as a board member for a Nashville-based anti-human trafficking organization. Now nine years removed from his magic carpet ride season and the attention that came with it, baseball's last great knuckleballer lives a life full of whimsy. “The thing that's neat about a knuckleball guy is you're kind of this wizard or this weird thing that blew through the major leagues,” Dickey laughs. “Most people that throw the knuckleball have a humble spirit because you have to deal with failure so much when you're trying to learn it. You also have to deal with how ugly it looks when it's not going well. I mean, you're up there floating 70 miles per hour to major league hitters. That carries over real well; I don't want people to ever be intimidated by me.” Fame can be fleeting, or at least for Dickey, it can morph from 40,000 screaming fans at Citi Field to umpires at local parks asking to pose for a photo. One thing that fascinates him is the level of hyper fame that deGrom has evaded. “You look at what this cat's done, people ask me all the time why he's not more well-known,” Dickey says of the relatively anonymous megastar heading the Mets' rotation. “One reason is that he hasn't had a chance to pitch in the postseason for a while. The other one is that he's coming up in an era where there's still enough people who appreciated guys that threw 240 innings. When you're asking a guy as good as he is to only go through the lineup twice, sometimes three times, there's something more there. That's really the only knock.” Dickey understands that any criticism of deGrom involves splitting the thinnest of hairs. While he acknowledges that having a manager that allows him to go deeper would add to deGrom's Q score, Dickey is also awestruck by the best pitcher in the world having such an unassuming demeanor. “He's got a perfect temperament for New York. He suits that place well because he's the same as he'd be in Milwaukee. In that place, man, you need a short-term memory and a bulletproof confidence. That's what it takes to be good there.” In the summer of 2012, Dickey was as good as any pitcher had ever been in the Big Apple. He led the National League in strikeouts, complete games and shutouts that year, earning the Cy Young trophy that's tucked away in the corner of his office. He's the only knuckleball artist to win pitching's top honor, doing so by throwing back-to-back complete game one-hitters, logging double-digit strikeouts in seven starts, and setting a Mets record with 32.2 consecutive scoreless innings. Dickey admits that he was rooting for deGrom to break that record this year. When asked about the darker, behind the scenes moments that grounded him from the euphoria of a Cy Young season, though, he pulls a sympathetic card. “The hardest part is always watching friends not have the seasons they hoped for, and collectively, the team not doing well,” Dickey says somberly of a Mets team that won just 74 games and finished 24 games behind the NL East champion Nationals. “Those are tough times.” RELATED: Former Met R.A. Dickey talks baseball's ugly restart battle, fan backlash and the coronavirus curveball » Of course, there was also the trade that immediately followed the supernatural season. The Mets traded Dickey to Toronto just over a month after his name was engraved on the Cy Young trophy. In return, the Blue Jays sent a combination of players headlined by Noah Syndergaard and Travis d'Arnaud, who became integral parts of the 2015 team that won the NL pennant. It was a World Series Dickey thought he was destined to play in. “I didn't want to leave New York, that was kind of a dark moment. I felt like I really belonged to a place for a portion of my career,” Dickey reflects. “I was able to build something with the fanbase, then all of a sudden I had to go somewhere else. That was a tough moment.” Life on the hobby farm is satisfying a different part of his spirit now, and Dickey says it's brought a sense of fulfillment. Being away from the cameras and microphones has opened a new side to the Mets' cult hero's life. As far as his niche, celebrity status in Queens? Dickey still enjoys tapping into that when he can. “I can still go back to New York and maybe get a free sub if the guy recognizes me. It's fun to be on that side.” https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/ny-ra-dickey-jacob-degrom-20210701-43p36tfd7be4vdycopnbc63pfe-story.html

Edgy MD Jul 01 2021 05:53 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

“You look at what this cat's done, people ask me all the time why he's not more well-known.” When did Dickey start talking like Miles Davis?

Johnny Lunchbucket Jul 01 2021 06:21 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Dickey deserves a Mets hOf enshrinement

batmagadanleadoff Jul 01 2021 06:31 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Dickey deserves a Mets hOf enshrinement Is there a minimum # of years as a Met to qualify? Because if three year Mets are eligible, then Dickey for sure, and also Olerud.

G-Fafif Jul 01 2021 07:16 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Dickey deserves a Mets hOf enshrinement Is there a minimum # of years as a Met to qualify? Because if three year Mets are eligible, then Dickey for sure, and also Olerud. As far as I know, there is no minimum on seasons played. The fewest of any player inductee is five — Gary Carter and Tommie Agee.

G-Fafif Jul 01 2021 07:56 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

DeGrom tonight evoked Randy Johnson in Game One of the 1999 NLDS vs us. Shockingly hittable — 4 runs in 4 innings, including homers to Fonzie and Oly — then virtually untouchable until the ninth. Showalter stuck with him maybe an inning too long, leaving him in until he loaded the bases, setting the stage for Bobby Chouinard to give up the decisive slam to Fonzie. NFL Films would have framed the Mets as the winners, but Johnson as a champion. I wouldn't have argued, https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/ARI/ARI199910050.shtml Of course deGrom was actually untouchable once he locked in. And no way he was gonna see the 9th tonight.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 02 2021 09:08 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Jacob deGrom will skip MLB All-Star Game under these Mets conditions Excerpt: But should the pitcher charting one of the best seasons in modern baseball history get chosen to the July 13 All-Star Game in Colorado, he says he won't participate if the Mets' blueprint holds and he starts three times to close the first half, including the final Sunday before the break. https://nypost.com/2021/06/29/jacob-degrom-will-skip-mlb-all-star-game-if-this-happens/

kcmets Jul 02 2021 11:42 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I'd rather Jake not participate and take the time off. They can spin the blueprint thing however they want.

G-Fafif Jul 02 2021 02:32 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Your National League Pitcher of the Month is…JACOB deGROM! Try not to fall over from shock.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 02 2021 02:33 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

This kind of dashes Jerad Eickoff's Schaefer hopes for June.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 02 2021 02:43 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Your National League Pitcher of the Month is…JACOB deGROM! Try not to fall over from shock. First Met ever to win National League Pitcher of the Month twice in the same season: METS NATIONAL LEAGUE PITCHER OF THE MONTH AWARD WINNERS

Edgy MD Jul 02 2021 08:19 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Congratulations to Jacob, who barely edged out the worthy runner-up, Whoever Faced the Mets on a Given Day. OH!

G-Fafif Jul 04 2021 03:54 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/mets/status/1411805330552639491[/tweet]

Edgy MD Jul 04 2021 08:14 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

You know, if he's not going to pitch, maybe he can get a hitting appearance. Not really kidding.

Willets Point Jul 04 2021 09:04 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

My ideal All-Star Game would be deGrom and Ohtani starting and batting for themselves and getting hits and RBIs and everyone realizing that the DH is stupid and abolishing it the very next day.

Fman99 Jul 05 2021 07:28 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

So the Mets have one player on the All Star list and he won't pitch. Why would I bother watching then? FUCK THE ALL STAR GAME SERIOUSLY

Edgy MD Jul 05 2021 07:36 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Well, if tradition holds, his unavailability would lead to his another Met being added to the roster.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 05 2021 07:40 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

The speculation is that Walker will probably replace deGrom.

Frayed Knot Jul 05 2021 07:43 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

and there are always final werk changes. Kyle Schwarber, for instance, is going to need to be replaced.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 09 2021 12:47 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

The Athletic hands out its half season awards. Jake deGrom gets the half-season NL MVP and Cy Young awards, with the added comment that if the season were to end today and deGrom didn't win the NL MVP award, then no pitcher ever deserves to win the MVP. NL half-season's LVP (Least Valuable Player) is also a Met, Francicsco Lindor. And pat me on the back for anticipating that one as I worked through the article. The AL's LVP is Matt Harvey.

dinosaur jesus Jul 09 2021 01:04 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=70816 time=1625856465 user_id=68] The Athletic hands out its half season awards. Jake deGrom gets the half-season NL MVP and Cy Young awards, with the added comment that if the season were to end today and deGrom didn't win the NL MVP award, then no pitcher ever deserves to win the MVP. NL half-season's LVP (Least Valuable Player) is also a Met, Francicsco Lindor. And pat me on the back for anticipating that one as I worked through the article. The AL's LVP is Matt Harvey.

Different standards being applied here. Lindor is the least valuable compared to expectations, but even at .220 he's an above-average ballplayer. Harvey has been historically bad.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 09 2021 01:16 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

dinosaur jesus wrote: =batmagadanleadoff post_id=70816 time=1625856465 user_id=68] The Athletic hands out its half season awards. Jake deGrom gets the half-season NL MVP and Cy Young awards, with the added comment that if the season were to end today and deGrom didn't win the NL MVP award, then no pitcher ever deserves to win the MVP. NL half-season's LVP (Least Valuable Player) is also a Met, Francicsco Lindor. And pat me on the back for anticipating that one as I worked through the article. The AL's LVP is Matt Harvey. Different standards being applied here. Lindor is the least valuable compared to expectations, but even at .220 he's an above-average ballplayer. Harvey has been historically bad.

Yes. Expectations factored heavily in the Lindor comment, with Lindor's record-setting(?) contract getting lotsa word-count.

G-Fafif Jul 09 2021 02:06 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

The everyday mainstay of an injury-wracked lineup and field general of a defensively upgraded first-place team is the league's least valuable player. Okey-doke, Jayson Stark. Most disappointing offensive performer, especially for the money, perhaps. But somebody in the NL is likely less valuable than Francisco Lindor.

Edgy MD Jul 09 2021 03:12 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Jayson Stark loves starting over-rated/most-disappointing/least-valuable arguments. ESPN laid him off, but he loved to go click-hunting with that sort of stuff for them. He's probably better than that, but some days he can't help himself.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 09 2021 03:52 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread. Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 09 2021 03:55 PM

.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 09 2021 03:54 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=G-Fafif post_id=70831 time=1625861176 user_id=55] The everyday mainstay of an injury-wracked lineup and field general of a defensively upgraded first-place team is the league's least valuable player. Okey-doke, Jayson Stark. Most disappointing offensive performer, especially for the money, perhaps. But somebody in the NL is likely less valuable than Francisco Lindor.

Out of 61 qualified NL position players, Lindor ranks 35th in 2021 fWAR. Lindor also happens to be the highest ranked Met on that list. The lowest ranking Met on that list is Dom Smith (51st). Obviously, fWAR includes defense.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 11 2021 12:13 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Luis Rojas sez that deGrom's not likely to pitch today OK. Fine with that. Then he says that deGrom's not likely to pitch Friday either, the Mets' first game after the ASG. Why's that? https://news.google.com/articles/CAIiEK672XTyh0GjAKSM-NM_MawqGAgEKg8IACoHCAowhK-LAjD4ySwwi9a0BQ?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen

kcmets Jul 11 2021 12:23 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Friday is Loup's spot in the rotation! (sorry, I'z kidding) I thought the Saturday decision was rather curious as well when I heard that. Maybe they'll clarify the thinking behind that at some point.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 16 2021 02:25 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Mike Puma tweets that deGrom will start on Sunday. Why's that?

Frayed Knot Jul 16 2021 02:33 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=71494 time=1626467138 user_id=68] Mike Puma tweets that deGrom will start on Sunday. Why's that?

Because Monday is too long to wait.

Johnny Lunchbucket Jul 16 2021 08:04 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Oh yuk, Villar wrong thread I know

batmagadanleadoff Jul 17 2021 03:06 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Frayed Knot wrote: Mike Puma tweets that deGrom will start on Sunday. Why's that? Because Monday is too long to wait. Or not too long. Now, deGrom's start might get pushed back to Monday, depending on I don't know what. PITTSBURGH — Jacob deGrom will be well-rested when he next pitches for the Mets, but the precise date of that scheduled occurrence remained unclear.... Manager Luis Rojas said deGrom would pitch Sunday or Monday, but was waiting to receive more information before setting the schedule. https://nypost.com/2021/07/16/mets-still-debating-when-jacob-degrom-will-pitch-again/ The odds that the Mets are hiding some injury to deGrom just tripled.

bmfc1 Jul 17 2021 03:14 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Or, hear me out... they want to make sure that Jake stays healthy by not letting him pitch!

batmagadanleadoff Jul 17 2021 03:28 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=bmfc1 post_id=71594 time=1626556492 user_id=73] Or, hear me out... they want to make sure that Jake stays healthy by not letting him pitch!

I take it back that the likelihood that deGrom has some day-to-day injury just tripled. I'll guess that it's a virtual certainty. There's no other reasonable explanation or reason for the Mets to consider deGrom not starting until Monday. Something's up. If deGrom suddenly sustained some injury that would keep him out for an extended period of time, like at least a week and a half, then there'd be no reason to hide it or play it day to day because there'd be no plausible reason the Mets could come up with to hold him out that long barring an injury. In that case, the Mets would simply come out with it. So deGrom probably has another one of those nagging day-to-day transient annoyances that he's already had a few times this season. I can't see any other reason why he might not pitch until Monday, the earliest.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 17 2021 03:36 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=71595 time=1626557311 user_id=68] =bmfc1 post_id=71594 time=1626556492 user_id=73] Or, hear me out... they want to make sure that Jake stays healthy by not letting him pitch!

I take it back that the likelihood that deGrom has some day-to-day injury just tripled. I'll guess that it's a virtual certainty. There's no other reasonable explanation or reason for the Mets to consider deGrom not starting until Monday. Something's up. If deGrom suddenly sustained some injury that would keep him out for an extended period of time, like at least a week and a half, then there'd be no reason to hide it or play it day to day because there'd be no plausible reason the Mets could come up with to hold him out that long barring an injury. In that case, the Mets would simply come out with it. So deGrom probably has another one of those nagging day-to-day transient annoyances that he's already had a few times this season. I can't see any other reason why he might not pitch until Monday, the earliest.


That's probably why Megill's starting today. If there's a good chance that deGrom won't pitch until Monday at the earliest, then that means that Megill and Walker get the weekend games. In that case, might as well have Walker pitch Sunday to give him an extra day of rest being that he pitched in the ASG. If the Mets were sure that deGrom would pitch Sunday, then Walker would get Saturday's game because Walker's spot in the rotation should be ahead of Megill's.

G-Fafif Jul 17 2021 03:58 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevegelbs/status/1416516561624502272[/tweet]

G-Fafif Jul 17 2021 03:59 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/stevegelbs/status/1416516905330950144[/tweet]

bmfc1 Jul 17 2021 04:01 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Ugh. It gets worse and worse.

Lefty Specialist Jul 17 2021 05:17 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Need to pick up a starter fast or this is going to get away from them.

ashie62 Jul 17 2021 06:44 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Jake is sure fragile these days. Need to get a good starter or this will likely get away from them.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 17 2021 08:42 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

He ain't gonna pitch on Monday either. So the Mets know today, Saturday, that deGrom will be out for at least two more days. I say "at least two more days" because Tuesday ain't guaranteed either. Me, personally, I'm beginning to have very strong doubts that deGrom's gonna win this year's Cy, let alone the MVP award. I'm starting to doubt that he'll pitch enough innings to even qualify for the ERA title. This is very recurring. The New York Mets ace will miss his scheduled start on Monday after experiencing forearm tightness in a throwing session on Friday, Mets manager Luis Rojas told reporters, per ESPN. Rojas added that deGrom experienced similar tightness in a bullpen session before the All-Star break, as well. https://sports.yahoo.com/mets-ace-jacob-de-grom-forearm-tightness-mlb-232935197.html

Edgy MD Jul 17 2021 10:06 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

We've certainly crossed a line, where a pitcher's arm is more of an investment and an asset to protect than a weapon to deploy. It has led to a a brutal irony, that the more effective pitcher, the more you're going to protect him, rather than the more you're going to look to him to get some wins for your team. When Tom Seaver was winning his first Cy Young in 1969, he had a few games in there where he had nothing. His arm wasn't coming back in between starts and wasn't responding to whatever crude therapy, and he was actually contemplating retirement. But the Mets kept sending him out there, he found his way back, and his legendary career went on for another 17 years. I'm not saying it's a better model or anything, but the trend is concerning. I certainly realize that it's not as concerning as deGrom hitting the Injured List or breaking down, but they're pitchers. If you look long enough, you're going to realize that all of their arms are injured in one way or another.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 29 2021 11:35 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Mets taking Jacob deGrom's comeback slowly https://nypost.com/2021/07/29/mets-taking-jacob-degroms-comeback-slowly/ This probably means a Labor Day return.

Benjamin Grimm Jul 29 2021 11:55 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Yeah, but then they'll probably find out that he has an itchy nose, or excessive ear wax, and that will set him back another two weeks.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 29 2021 12:12 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

deGrom's third in bWAR in the NL (5.0) behind only Tatis (5.1) and Wheeler (5.3). He's also tied for 2d in strikeouts. He's got about 35 less IP's than regular starters who haven't missed a start.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 29 2021 12:13 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=72838 time=1627582345 user_id=68] deGrom's third in bWAR in the NL (5.0) behind only Tatis (5.1) and Wheeler (5.3). He's also tied for 2d in strikeouts. He's got about 35 less IP's than regular starters who haven't missed a start.

Of course, if deGrom misses most of August, which it's looking likely, he'll have zero chance of catching up to any of the stat leaders.

Edgy MD Jul 29 2021 12:25 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

He theoretically could be so far ahead of the field in rate stats, that he's still could lead NL pitchers in WAR while not qualifying (or barely qualifying) for the ERA title.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 29 2021 12:32 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Edgy MD wrote: He theoretically could be so far ahead of the field in rate stats, that he's still could lead NL pitchers in WAR while not qualifying (or barely qualifying) for the ERA title. I don't see that happening unless he returns in the next week (or so) and continues to pitch out of his mind upon his return, like he was pitching all season long. Plus when he returns, I'm sure they'll baby him for a while pitch-count wise. It'll be a minor miracle if he goes more than five innings for a while.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 29 2021 12:34 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=72838 time=1627582345 user_id=68] deGrom's third in bWAR in the NL (5.0) behind only Tatis (5.1) and Wheeler (5.3). He's also tied for 2d in strikeouts. He's got about 35 less IP's than regular starters who haven't missed a start.

But how 'bout that Wheeler guy? Thanks eff and jeff.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 29 2021 08:25 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Assuming that deGrom averages 6.5 innings pitched per start over his remaining starts, he'd have to return in about a week and not miss any more starts to pitch enough innings to qualify for the rates stat leads, including the 2021 ERA crown. Neither of those conditions -- next week's return or the 6.5 IP/avg. look likely at this point.

Edgy MD Jul 29 2021 09:24 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Yeah, all I'm suggesting is that he could still lead among pitchers in any of the varying calculations for WAR. If he's only 0.3 behind Wheeler, it's certainly not inconceivable that he could outpace a field of one.

batmagadanleadoff Jul 30 2021 10:53 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Jacob deGrom threw a light side session before [yesterday's] game, according to manager Luis Rojas, and will likely play catch on Friday. The Mets have not announced a timetable for deGrom's return to the rotation, but last weekend a club source indicated “early August” was the probability provided deGrom didn't incur a setback. The Mets ace has been on the injured list for almost two weeks with tightness in his right forearm. https://nypost.com/2021/07/30/pete-alonsos-mammoth-mets-home-run-put-him-in-rare-company/ Sunday is August. So early August is next week. If deGrom returns next week, he has a chance to accumulate 162 IP's for this season. We'll see.

G-Fafif Jul 30 2021 04:24 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/anthonydicomo/status/1421234736719093764[/tweet]

batmagadanleadoff Jul 30 2021 04:37 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/anthonydicomo/status/1421234736719093764[/tweet] Yeah, that report a post above yours about deGrom perhaps returning in early August was a week old quote. The more recent stuff had deGrom returning a few weeks beyond early August. I wouldn't be surprised if the "setback" happened way before it was finally reported and the Mets were doing their best to hide so that they wouldn't be fleeced if they were going after a front of the rotation pitcher before the trade deadline. Coincidence that this was announced after the trade deadline expired?

ashie62 Jul 30 2021 04:50 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/anthonydicomo/status/1421234736719093764[/tweet] From historic season to something much less. He throws too hard every pitch.

smg58 Jul 30 2021 04:50 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

At this point I would rather have gotten fleeced than gotten nothing on the pitching front.

Fman99 Jul 30 2021 05:37 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Fuck

batmagadanleadoff Aug 04 2021 11:34 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Jacob deGrom confident ‘frustrating' injury won't end his Mets season https://nypost.com/2021/08/03/jacob-degrom-confident-hell-return-to-mets-this-season/ ________ Why did deGrom feel it necessary to make that statement? Did his injury suddenly rise to the level where it might prevent him from pitching until 2022? This whole deGrom injury affair seems so opaque.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 04 2021 11:41 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Or someone might have asked him.

Edgy MD Aug 04 2021 11:52 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=smg58 post_id=72992 time=1627685449 user_id=62] At this point I would rather have gotten fleeced than gotten nothing on the pitching front.

Hey, now, Rich Hill isn't a lost dachshund.

ashie62 Aug 04 2021 05:03 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Picking on Dachshunds? Mine 'Pretzel" says uh huh.

Edgy MD Aug 04 2021 05:43 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Not at all.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 07 2021 12:34 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Virginia Zakas, writing for The Athletic's Injury Mailbag, is not so optimistic that Jacob deGrom will return this season: Does it seem likely that Jacob DeGrom will be out for the season? His elbow soreness seems extremely ominous and he's 11 years out from his Tommy John surgery — isn't this roughly the timeline for needing a second one? -— Jon H. Jacob deGrom initially landed on the IL early in July with inflammation in his forearm. He was expecting a quick return, but that didn't happen. Now he is shut down from throwing again but is describing the pain as being more in his elbow. He was able to rule out ligament damage following an MRI and a CT scan, but he may be dealing with a bone spur in the elbow. This can lead to significant inflammation and pain that is tough to pitch through. deGrom was feeling OK throwing from flat ground, but when he moved to the mound his arm didn't feel right. Despite this setback, deGrom is confident he will be able to return this season. I'm not so optimistic. He is going to undergo an MRI in about 10 days to track his progress. If the scan is clean he will be cleared to resume throwing. But if it isn't, he could be shut down for the season. deGrom would need 3-4 weeks to ramp back up if things look good and his pain has subsided. At this point I'm not concerned about needing Tommy John surgery, but if he tries to come back before his elbow and forearm are feeling good, he could risk causing damage to that UCL again. https://theathletic.com/2754072/2021/08/05/injury-mailbag-jacob-degrom-shutdown-concerns-eta-for-kyle-schwarbers-boston-debut-and-more/

The Hot Corner Aug 07 2021 04:49 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Jacob deGrom confident ‘frustrating' injury won't end his Mets season. No, only the Mets season.

G-Fafif Aug 07 2021 05:01 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

It's been one month since the greatest of pitchers last pitched.

G-Fafif Aug 13 2021 07:02 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/joe_manniello/status/1426347063709732868[/tweet]

Centerfield Aug 20 2021 12:02 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Rumors are that the Mets have already made the decision to shut down deGrom for the remainder of the season. I'd like to get him back, if nothing else to make sure he's healthy once he ramps up. It will be one shitty winter if we have to hold our breath and wonder what derailed his season, and whether it will creep back up in March.

whippoorwill Aug 20 2021 12:28 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I still think the Mets medical staff needs improvement

G-Fafif Aug 20 2021 01:05 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

From your Mets PR dept.: RHP Jacob deGrom has been transferred to the 60-Day Injured List. DeGrom is eligible to return from the IL on September 13 and his status and timeline remain unchanged.

nymr83 Aug 20 2021 04:29 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=G-Fafif post_id=75064 time=1629486319 user_id=55] From your Mets PR dept.: RHP Jacob deGrom has been transferred to the 60-Day Injured List. DeGrom is eligible to return from the IL on September 13 and his status and timeline remain unchanged.

I'm sure everyone wants to see degrom back this year, but at this point unless the Mets can hang around in the division race without him there is no point risking his arm for 2-3 starts.

The Hot Corner Aug 21 2021 07:29 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I have essentially resigned myself to the Braves once again winning the NLeast. There is little sense. IMO, in risking injury to DeGrom by having him pitch in a few meaningless games at the end of the season.

bmfc1 Aug 21 2021 08:31 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

The Hot Corner wrote: I have essentially resigned myself to the Braves once again winning the NLeast. And that's without one of the best players in baseball (and another starting OF).

Edgy MD Aug 21 2021 08:36 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Well, we won't know how meaningless until then. Otherwise, the only injury-risk the team incurs is allowing their pitcher to continue to rehabilitate, which is what he'd be doing anyway. But I don't believe in the meaningless game.

Lefty Specialist Aug 21 2021 08:57 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

He needs to get another opinion (and maybe he has). Because this kind of soreness doesn't occur in a vacuum. Typical Mets would be telling him to rest all winter and then after one spring training session it's determined he needs surgery.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 21 2021 08:59 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Lefty Specialist wrote: He needs to get another opinion (and maybe he has). Because this kind of soreness doesn't occur in a vacuum. Typical Mets would be telling him to rest all winter and then after one spring training session it's determined he needs surgery. That's what I was thinking. It's even worse than it appears because no one even knows what exactly it is that's ailing deGrom. (Unless they do know but aren't saying. Which is even worse than the paragraph above.)

Centerfield Aug 22 2021 05:42 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Best case scenario is bone spur right? Don't even want to consider the other side.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 26 2021 10:09 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

The Mets are ramping Jacob deGrom back up. Why they made that decision and what it means for the ace The Mets got the best news they could on Wednesday, when an MRI cleared Jacob deGrom to begin throwing again. DeGrom played catch in the outfield at Citi Field before the game, his first time throwing since being shut down on July 30. “This is great news we got today,” manager Luis Rojas said. “It would be huge to have him back. … To see Jake late in the season would be ideal.” The Mets haven't set a timeline for deGrom's return. He's on the 60-day injured list, which means the earliest he could return is Sept. 13. On Tuesday, acting general manager Zack Scott suggested it wouldn't be quite that soon. “It's something we have to take day by day,” Scott said. “The whole point of ramping him up is to see if he can get back to where he needs to be before he could get activated while remaining asymptomatic.” “We've got to see how he progresses playing catch, and if there's a flag at some point we're probably going to be smart about it,” Rojas said Wednesday. The general rule in the sport is that a pitcher's ramp-up period is congruent to the time he was shut down. Applying that here would mean deGrom wouldn't be ready to return to the majors until Sept. 20; that would leave him three major-league starts this season. Of course, the Mets have fudged that rule before this season with Carlos Carrasco, who made three rehab starts after being shut down for months. Scott said they'd be ready to do the same with deGrom. “It just logically makes sense,” Scott said Tuesday about deGrom potentially finishing his ramp-up in the majors the way Carrasco did. “It's too early to have those conversations. But it's obvious where we are in the calendar. With guys like Noah (Syndergaard) and guys like Jake, we think they can impact the game in different ways. So we just need to figure out what makes the most sense given the time that we have remaining in the season.” Scott has said that the Mets' competitive context would not affect deGrom's timeline. The club views him as a healthy pitcher at this point, working his way back to being major-league ready. On Tuesday, Scott said he had no long-term concern about deGrom's health, even before an MRI result that the team viewed as encouraging. “We'll learn about how he's doing physically. It's important for him to be in a good place going into the offseason,” Scott said. “That can influence how we set up his offseason plan — what he's going to do in terms of working out, a throwing program, all those types of things. You learn a lot about the player whenever he's pitching in competition. There's value there, even if he never gets in a game, just getting up to that point to see how he responds physically. I think we'll learn something that'll help us going forward.” So if you're trying to eyeball a potential return for deGrom, that week between Sept. 13 and Sept. 20 — a homestand against St. Louis and Philadelphia before a trip to Boston — might make the most sense. DeGrom is the most important Met. He was in the midst of a historically good season when he last pitched on July 7, carrying an ERA just over one into the All-Star break. He's been the best pitcher in baseball for the last four years, and he has an opt-out clause in his contract at the end of the 2022 season. If there were zero questions about deGrom's health, this offseason would be a time to consider another extension. The pitcher's status as the team's most important player is what makes these next 39 days so delicate for New York. There is always the risk of a setback. Syndergaard and Carrasco both experienced them while working back on a cautious schedule. DeGrom himself appeared set for a rehab assignment in late July when he was shut down. In the Mets' mind, the potential rewards of deGrom's return outweigh that risk. Having deGrom back even for a few starts would certainly help New York in the standings if it's still in the race in the second half of September. Even if their 2021 chances are done by then, the Mets can benefit from getting a solid read on deGrom's health going into the offseason. It will influence their thinking not just on another long-term arrangement with the ace but also how they fill out their rotation for 2022. Both Syndergaard and Marcus Stroman will be free agents. One thing the Mets are contemplating is whether deGrom can and should take a step back with his velocity. DeGrom, of course, was throwing as hard as any starting pitcher in history earlier this season. And while the pitcher has attributed his earlier minor injuries to overzealous swings while batting, this latest and longest physical malady relates to pitching. DeGrom had his best season in 2018 averaging just over 96 on his fastball. He was averaging nearly 3 mph more this year, and some with the team wonder whether he'd be better served averaging less on his fastball while still retaining the triple-digit max speed he's flashed the last two seasons. https://theathletic.com/2790681/2021/08/25/the-mets-are-ramping-jacob-degrom-back-up-why-they-made-that-decision-and-what-it-means-for-the-ace/

Ceetar Aug 26 2021 10:17 AM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

“It's something we have to take day by day,” Scott said. “The whole point of ramping him up is to see if he can get back to where he needs to be before he could get activated while remaining asymptomatic.” The club views him as a healthy pitcher at this point, working his way back to being major-league ready. On Tuesday, Scott said he had no long-term concern about deGrom's health, even before an MRI result that the team viewed as encouraging. These two statements seem a little incongruous. It'd be nice if someone pushed back a little and got a clear answer.

kcmets Aug 26 2021 01:04 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

[BLOCKQUOTE]" He's on the 60-day injured list, which means the earliest he could return is Sept. 13. On Tuesday, acting general manager Zack Scott suggested it wouldn't be quite that soon."[/BLOCKQUOTE] Enough already! What's he gonna pitch one game? For what? Pull the plug NOW!!!

The Hot Corner Aug 26 2021 06:40 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

The reason I have seen for having DeGrom ramp back up and pitch this season, is so the Mets can go into the off season knowing DeGrom's status. DeGrom's status is that he's the best pitcher on the damn planet (when healthy), he's just become rather fragile. I don't think it is worth the risk to have him pitch one or two outings for a team that will be going nowhere, but home, when the regular season is over. I would prefer to let his arm have the entire winter to recover and get healthy/

Ceetar Aug 26 2021 07:25 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

There's something to be said for having your "arm strength" so to speak, at roughly 100% and ending your season around the normal time and having a normal recovery winter.

batmagadanleadoff Sep 07 2021 04:23 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

The Mets provided some clarity on the condition of injured ace Jacob deGrom on Tuesday, when team president Sandy Alderson told reporters at loanDepot park that deGrom has been sidelined with a sprain of the ulnar collateral ligament in his right elbow, but that injury has healed and the ligament is "perfectly intact, based on the MRIs and our clinical evaluations through our doctors." Tuesday marked the first time deGrom's injury had been termed a "sprain"; the team had previously described him as battling "right elbow inflammation." But Alderson cautioned that the word sprain was a "technical term ... another term for a very mild ligament condition," and called deGrom's injury "a very low-grade thing that has resolved itself." https://news.google.com/articles/CBMiR2h0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lm1sYi5jb20vbmV3cy9qYWNvYi1kZWdyb20tcy1yaWdodC1lbGJvdy1zcHJhaW4taGFzLXJlc29sdmVk0gFQaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cubWxiLmNvbS9hbXAvbmV3cy9qYWNvYi1kZWdyb20tcy1yaWdodC1lbGJvdy1zcHJhaW4taGFzLXJlc29sdmVkLmh0bWw?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US%3Aen

Centerfield Sep 07 2021 07:55 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Sprains are basically small tears. Any torn UCL is cause for concern. But a google search suggests that ligaments do sometimes heal themselves.

Gwreck Sep 07 2021 07:58 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

One wonders if the next week has a major impact on deGrom's status. Sweep Miami, sweep that other team from the Bronx, pick up a couple of games on Atlanta, and sure, deGrom can pitch a few times and get stretched out for the playoffs.

G-Fafif Sep 09 2021 03:49 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Ace pitcher, team he pitches for elude same page. [tweet]https://twitter.com/justinctoscano/status/1436082724503175173[/tweet]

Centerfield Sep 09 2021 05:14 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

I saw the clip. Jake looked unhappy. I don't know if he's annoyed at the lack of progress or the messaging from Sandy or something else.

G-Fafif Sep 14 2021 04:12 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Just in time for the lack of playoffs. [tweet]https://twitter.com/anthonydicomo/status/1437901044760158213[/tweet]

G-Fafif Sep 21 2021 02:15 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/snytv/status/1440398373060681731[/tweet]

G-Fafif Sep 28 2021 01:13 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Au revoir to the best pitcher in baseball until 2022. [tweet]https://twitter.com/timbritton/status/1442928795615326209[/tweet]

Lefty Specialist Sep 28 2021 01:31 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

He better not have something that 'mysteriously' pops up in Spring training and could have been addressed a few months ago. We're definitely not getting the full story here, either from deGrom or the Mets.

MFS62 Sep 28 2021 01:47 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

Lefty Specialist wrote: He better not have something that 'mysteriously' pops up in Spring training and could have been addressed a few months ago. We're definitely not getting the full story here, either from deGrom or the Mets. That kind of stuff used to happen frequently back when arm shoulder surgery wasn't as "routine" as it is today. Teams would prescribe rest for the year, only to find out next spring that it really was needed, wasting a year when the pitcher should already be rehabbing. If that is the case, that new PR/Media/image firm they just signed on with is going to get a workout spinning this one. Later

kcmets Sep 28 2021 01:56 PM Re: It's 2021 and Jacob deGrom still deserves his own thread.

=kcmets post_id=75596 time=1630004688 user_id=53]Pull the plug NOW!!!

Or, ya know, wait another 30 days.