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A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Benjamin Grimm Jun 07 2021 11:47 AM

We haven't talked about this. MLB is going to have umpires regularly check pitchers for foreign substances, probably as they're exiting the game. This is to avoid yet another reason for slowing the pace of the game. Although we only know that pitchers are leaving the game if they're removed mid-inning. If they're pinch hit for, then they've already had time to duck into the clubhouse and clean up. Anyway... Artificial substances increase spin rate, which adds movement to the pitch. Since the announcement (small sample size so far), the spin rates of Gerrit Cole and Trevor Bauer are said to have dropped markedly. This article from CBS Sports is interesting, despite its use of the phrase "lo and behind". MLB foreign substance crack down: Trevor Bauer, Gerrit Cole show reduced spin; ex-MVP calls out 'coincidence' When asked whether he can be the same pitcher he was in 2020 if MLB cracks down on foreign substances, Bauer said, "Go look at the 2018 numbers and tell me what you think." Bauer was excellent in 2018 (2.12 ERA in 175 1/3 innings), though that is more or less an admission he is using foreign substances. The implication is he didn't use them in 2018 but is now, which matches up with the data on his spin rates.

MFS62 Jun 07 2021 12:12 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Apparently there have been some insinuations about DeGrom, because I saw (SNY?) several Mets quoted as saying Jake doesn't use, or need to use, illegal substances. This links to a similar NY Post article: https://nypost.com/2021/06/07/jacob-degroms-teammates-defend-him-against-twitter-cheating-claim/ Later

Ceetar Jun 07 2021 04:12 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

just some idiot on twitter noted that he occasionally touches his belt. shocking.

Edgy MD Jun 07 2021 04:56 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

He keeps the 102 MPH turbo juice in there.

Frayed Knot Jun 07 2021 05:20 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Are pitchers allowed to use sticky substances manufactured domestically?

Centerfield Jun 07 2021 05:35 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Edgy MD wrote: He keeps the 102 MPH turbo juice in there. Paging FMan.

nymr83 Jun 07 2021 06:52 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Frayed Knot wrote: Are pitchers allowed to use sticky substances manufactured domestically? The best one apparently is, behold SPIDER TACK! [url]https://theathletic.com/2631711/2021/06/07/spider-tack-is-the-stickiest-stuff-in-baseballs-foreign-substance-controversy-its-inventor-had-no-idea/ While most major league pitchers use some sort of grip enhancer to improve spin rates, there's one sticky substance many of them feel is a step too far. “Get Spider Tack out of the game and I don't care about anything else,” an MLB pitcher said, singling out a substance so spectacularly tacky that it suddenly has expanded beyond its initial market (strongmen lifting Atlas Stones) to a much larger one (pitchers hurling five-ounce baseballs). “What was it even created for?” a third pitcher asked. “It wasn't baseball.” I already had the short answer, but it took falling through an internet mineshaft to learn more about Spider Tack. It's easier to get your hands on the stuff — $35.99 plus shipping for a nine-ounce container on Amazon — than it is to get ahold of the people behind it. Their website is bare-bones, their social media accounts dormant. The parent company, Spider Strength LLC, has no office. A little amateur sleuthing leads to a LinkedIn profile, then another, then an address, then a phone number, and then I'm cold-calling a pharmaceuticals lab on the outskirts of Denver. The woman who answers the phone patches me through to the lab's president and CEO, Mike Caruso. He is willing to talk. He is a retired strongman, once one of the strongest men in America. At 40, he's still so muscular he looks like he could crush a baseball with his hands. This is the man who invented Spider Tack. And he is confused about why I'm calling. When I ask Caruso what he thinks about his tacky — that's the term among strongmen and strongwomen — becoming the talk of baseball, he answers cautiously. “This is news to me,” he says. “I had no idea it was popular in baseball.”

Lefty Specialist Jun 07 2021 07:02 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Apparently there have been some insinuations about DeGrom, because I saw (SNY?) several Mets quoted as saying Jake doesn't use, or need to use, illegal substances. This links to a similar NY Post article: https://nypost.com/2021/06/07/jacob-degroms-teammates-defend-him-against-twitter-cheating-claim/ Later Yeah, Jacob doesn't exactly need to improve his spin rates when he's throwing consistent 101 gas.

Fman99 Jun 07 2021 07:50 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Edgy MD wrote: He keeps the 102 MPH turbo juice in there. I'm always touching near my belt too. Don't judge.

dinosaur jesus Jun 07 2021 08:02 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

The idiot on Twitter says he's actually talking about Jake dabbing at his glove, not the belt move. Not that that's any more credible. If he really is using something, as Bauer says everyone is (and he would say that, wouldn't he?), and the crackdown makes him stop, he'll have to go back to being 2018 DeGrom. I guess I can live with that.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 07 2021 11:32 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Jacob deGrom spin rates: 2021 slider - 2600 2020 slider - 2565 2019 slider - 2455 2018 slider - 2497 2017 slider - 2453 2016 slider - 2414 2021 curve- 2724 2020 curve- 2632 2019 curve- 2569 2018 curve- 2563 2017 curve- 2549 2016 curve- 2432 Not sure what to make of this. A pitcher can increase his spin rate simply by increasing the velocity of his pitches, which deGrom has measurably done. Also, I haven't compared these numbers to those of other pitchers, to get a sense of where deGrom's spin rates rate. My hunch is that deGrom is throwing a clean baseball. He's too damn good -- pitching in a world of his own -- and if he was suspected of stickying up the baseball while pitching at the level he's pitching at, we'd be hearing a lot of rumors and accusations, and from baseball insiders, not just from one fan on instagram or twitter or whatever social media platform. Anyways, here's the link to the site for spin rates. There's an enormous amount of data here. https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/jacob-degrom-594798?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb

Ceetar Jun 08 2021 06:53 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

yeah, considering that matches his velocity increase and there's no big jump, seems 'clean' MLB just needs to decide what they want and go with it. (Well, they should decided what the sport should be, what they want is everyone to just not talk about it so they don't have to do anything) Either let them use 'stuff', or don't. make a rule and enforce it, or don't. Same with sign stealing, PEDs. If you continue to just draw fuzzy gray lines, players are absolutely going to push that as far as they're able. Or whatever, just fire whoever the Mets hire as their next manager and consider the case closed.

Centerfield Jun 08 2021 11:53 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Maybe I'm just wearing blue and orange glasses, but I'd be shocked if deGrom were using something illegal. And keep in mind, I believed (and still do) that Piazza was juicing and that Beltran cheated in Houston. But guys like deGrom, Wright, Granderson. I just can't see if from some players.

Lefty Specialist Jun 08 2021 12:46 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

As far as curves go, didn't Gary say he's only thrown two of them all year?

Ceetar Jun 08 2021 01:04 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

3. he threw 30 last year (only 4 to righties) 87 in 2019, and 252 in 2018

batmagadanleadoff Jun 08 2021 01:10 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

=Ceetar post_id=67268 time=1623179062 user_id=102] 3. he threw 30 last year (only 4 to righties) 87 in 2019, and 252 in 2018

Meanwhile, deGrom's curveball -now his 4th pitch- is widely considered to be the best curveball in baseball.

smg58 Jun 08 2021 01:29 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

So the league tolerated steroids for far too long, the parks were mostly made shorter, you have all these rules designed to shorten the game that actually help batters, you have all this talk about launch angles, and we were expecting pitchers to NOT come up with something in response? But the deadened ball is the bigger difference-maker this year. Which is fine, because the three-true-outcome approach was making the game boring (and is what's really behind the longer games) and should not be rewarded. So my response? Enforce honest play, like you should have always been doing, but don't expect the jump in offense to be all that big. And tell people who now have warning-track power but still keep hitting into the shift to try adapting.

Ceetar Jun 08 2021 01:45 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=67270 time=1623179401 user_id=68] Meanwhile, deGrom's curveball -now his 4th pitch- is widely considered to be the best curveball in baseball.

2018 was the last season he threw it with any measurable sample:



Curveball runs above average, per 100 pitches



Kluber 2.99

Greinke 2.47

Nola 2.32

Snell 2.24

deGrom 1.81

Edgy MD Jun 08 2021 02:04 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

I certainly heard Gelbs report that Hefner thinks his curve is terrific. But he's thrown two of them all season (at least, as far as I've seen). They've both been beautiful, but I hesitate to think it's widely considered anything.

dinosaur jesus Jun 08 2021 02:07 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

If he doesn't want to use his curve, maybe he could let someone else have it for a while.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 08 2021 02:25 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Edgy MD wrote: I certainly heard Gelbs report that Hefner thinks his curve is terrific. But he's thrown two of them all season (at least, as far as I've seen). They've both been beautiful, but I hesitate to think it's widely considered anything. My mistake. "... one of the best".

Frayed Knot Jun 08 2021 06:10 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Q: Gerritt Cole, have you ever used 'Spider Tack'? Cole: I don't know how to answer that. Me: I think you just did

Fman99 Jun 08 2021 06:39 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

That was a damning interview by Cole there. He looked about as innocent as Andy Pettitte did when he got caught cheating.

metsmarathon Jun 08 2021 08:58 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Jacob deGrom spin rates: 2021 slider - 2600 2020 slider - 2565 2019 slider - 2455 2018 slider - 2497 2017 slider - 2453 2016 slider - 2414 2021 curve- 2724 2020 curve- 2632 2019 curve- 2569 2018 curve- 2563 2017 curve- 2549 2016 curve- 2432 https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/jacob-degrom-594798?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb oh boy - data! degrom's spin rate on fastballs tracks with velocity. if you divide spin rate by velocity, he's been at about 24.5 hz/mph (i think that unit is then... hours per mile-second). i can therefore convert that figure to... inches! huzzah! degrom's spin rate per velocity (srpv) on fastballs is... about 1.40 inches. (a baseball's diameter is 1.43 inches). note, i have no idea if this is a legit way of looking at things. but i'm doing it. deal. his srpv going backwards from '21 to '15 is... 1.39 | 1.43 | 1.40 | 1.40 | 1.41 | 1.39 | 1.34 no noteworthy changes there. on changeups... these actually go down. which likely means his grip is getting deeper and deeper. i dunno... anyways... spin rate on changeups is dropping over time. starting again with '21... 1.01 | 1.02 | 1.07 | 1.09 | 1.16 | 1.12 | 1.15 on curveballs... 1.85 | 1.78 | 1.73 | 1.76 | 1.78 | 1.71 | 1.43 hmm.... small jump since last year with a small sample. then pretty consistent i guess back to '15. on sinkers, which he has't thrown in '21 or '20... 1.34 | 1.35 | 1.38 | 1.34 | 1.28 and sliders. 1.61 | 1.58 | 1.51 | 1.56 | 1.56 | 1.54 | 1.47 so, i don't know how srpv is supposed to reveal itself if one is using sticky stuff. it's clear that degrom is gradually decreasing the spin rate on his changeup, and increasing the spin on his curve - which he doesn't throw. the rest of his pitches are pretty consistently about the same. slight differences, but nothing that jumps out as "insert magic stuff here" unless he started using the stuff back in '16, as that's the only time there was a noticable jump on any of his pitches' srpv. ..... oh, hey. since i'm here. let's look at gerrit cole! fastball srpv from '21 backwards: 1.49 | 1.47 | 1.48 | 1.40 | 1.28 | 1.29 | 1.27. hmmm...... somethng clearly changed from 17 to 19. changeup srpv: 1.11 | 1.13 | 1.20 | 1.08 | 1.05 | 1.08 | 1.09 not as smoking gunnish. curve: 1.93 | 1.91 | 2.00 | 1.96 | 1.88 | 1.83 | 1.70 there seems to be a change there, but seems to materialize a year sooner than the fastball.... sinker: -.-- | -.-- | 1.47 | 1.37 | 1.25 | 1.27 | 1.27 there again seems to be a change happening, though with no data for the two most recent years, its hard to pick up nything. slider: 1.74 | 1.65 | 1.67 | 1.65 | 1.56 | 1.47 | 1.25 hmm... once again, there's a change in his most recent 4 years. i don't know what this all means. other than is looks more like something changed for cole about 3-4 years ago, whereas degrom's changes have been somewhat more gradual. i think. oh, and by way of comparison... trevor bauer's fastball srpv: 1.71 | 1.69 | 1.45 | 1.40 | 1.37 | 1.36 | 1.35 yeah... there might be something up there. ya think?

Edgy MD Jun 08 2021 09:45 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

I'm convinced!

kcmets Jun 09 2021 06:54 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Edgy MD wrote: I'm convinced! I'm just happy he's on our side, and I mean marathon and not deGrom!

Edgy MD Jun 09 2021 07:43 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Not for nothing, but isn't this a the sort of substance that you apply to the ball (like a spitter) to change it's balance and wind resistance. It's something you apply to your hand to improve your grip. That, to me, means it works best dry, and would be best applied in the clubhouse before the start and between innings — rather than through surreptitious, sight-of-hand work out there on the mound, before God and everybody. It presumably needs a few minutes to absorb the oils and sweat on your hand and turn it into the monkey wrench grip machine that you want. It seems like something that would get pretty cruddy pretty fast inside your belt or under your bill. It supposedly takes a blast of WD-40 to get it off of you.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 09 2021 08:12 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Speaking of goo... Why was Francisco Lindor's Mets helmet so disgusting from the very beginning?

Edgy MD Jun 09 2021 08:17 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

A latter-day practice — possibly begun by Craig Biggio, but vastly inculturated by the Red Sox — of putting pine tar on the helmet, so if you need some quickly during your at-bat, you can just go to your helmet. I think Biggio initially just gunked up his helmet by constantly adjusting it during his plate appearances while handling his bat, but it became a thing to transfer pine tar in the opposite direction. There's buzz out there that MLB may soon be cracking down on this, as well, but it feels like it's been going on for a while now.

kcmets Jun 09 2021 08:23 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Edgy MD wrote: There's buzz out there that MLB may soon be cracking down on this, as well. While they're exploring uniform issues, they should pass a 'law' that cleats must be black, white or one of the team colors. (the over/under on someone calling me a grumpy old man is 45 mins)

duan Jun 09 2021 08:32 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

as someone who wears white football boots with no laces. I can happily say you're not fun

kcmets Jun 09 2021 08:35 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

I included white ^^^

duan Jun 09 2021 08:51 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

no but i have red studs underneath! and white football boots would have been unheard of pre '00

duan Jun 09 2021 08:55 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

[url]https://www.dropbox.com/s/uo9g81s0lmi91fh/unnamed.jpeg?dl=0 like this

Edgy MD Jun 09 2021 09:02 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Also, that alien, war-painted simian in your avatar would have been unheard of pre '00. Scary.

duan Jun 09 2021 09:17 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Edgy MD wrote: Also, that alien, war-painted simian in your avatar would have been unheard of pre '00. Scary. I have no idea where that came from !

stevejrogers Jun 09 2021 09:41 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Jun 09 2021 09:53 AM

Edgy MD wrote: Also, that alien, war-painted simian in your avatar would have been unheard of pre '00. Scary. Well, at least pre-1994… [url]https://lionking.fandom.com/wiki/Rafiki

MFS62 Jun 09 2021 09:50 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Just found this oldie. Enjoy, Later __________________________________________________________________________ Now, if you're bad And you don't know where to go to The last five saves you've tried, blow. Why don't you take my pitching tip, By puttin' on the spit? Your curve ball is just a shallow drooper You're getting hit like Braden Looper Makes us want to get the pooper-scooper You ain't Super-duper (Musical interlude for tap dancing monster) If you're pitchin' lousy And your games make us feel drowsy Take my pitching tip. Try puttin' on the spit. If the batters you ain't fooling, Why not try a little drooling? Take my pitching tip. Try puttin' on the spit.

Marshmallowmilkshake Jun 09 2021 10:31 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

[url]https://twitter.com/AndrewMarchand/status/1402383385239109637?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1402383385239109637%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmetsmerizedonline.com%2F2021%2F06%2Fmorning-briefing-ron-darling-among-three-inducted-to-mets-hall-of-fame.html%2F Cole's answer is absolutely awful. Yankees comms team should have anticipated that question was coming -- there was no way it was not coming -- and worked with him on a better answer than silence, stammering and a word salad.

Frayed Knot Jun 09 2021 11:32 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

That was the best non-answer to a baseball cheating question since Jason Giambi ... now which team did he play for when he was similarly stumped?

batmagadanleadoff Jun 09 2021 11:40 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

[url]https://twitter.com/AndrewMarchand/status/1402383385239109637?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1402383385239109637%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmetsmerizedonline.com%2F2021%2F06%2Fmorning-briefing-ron-darling-among-three-inducted-to-mets-hall-of-fame.html%2F Cole's answer is absolutely awful. Yankees comms team should have anticipated that question was coming -- there was no way it was not coming -- and worked with him on a better answer than silence, stammering and a word salad. What's there to be coached? Either Cole used Spider Tack or some similar sticky substance or he didn't. What? You're gonna teach Cole to pivot? And then what? So when Cole, thanks to you, pivots and changes the subject to Julie Andrews' performance in Mary Poppins, that's gonna fool everybody into forgetting they asked Cole about his use of Spider Tack in the first place? The big travesty in that Cole interview wasn't even Cole's answer -- he answered the question, if in an unintended and clumsy way. The travesty was the media's own questioning. Where was the follow-up? "Why can't you answer this question?" "Why do you find it hard to answer this question?" "What is it about this question that you don't understand? We'd be glad to elaborate or explain whatever you don't undestand." "Do you realize that your answer about prior generations of players handing down new traditions and techniques to your generation of players doesn't answer our previous question -- that is, did you yourself ever use Spider Tack?"

Frayed Knot Jun 09 2021 08:20 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

Gerritt Cole having a good night tonight, theoretically w/o sticky stuff, vs Minnesota [2 ER, 5 hits, thru 6]

Marshmallowmilkshake Jun 14 2021 11:16 AM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

The fired Angels clubhouse guy who exposed Cole is now naming Corey Kluber and even Joba! [url]https://nypost.com/2021/06/14/brian-harkins-adds-yankees-corey-kluber-to-his-sticky-list/

Edgy MD Jul 23 2021 07:17 PM Re: A Foreign (Substance) Affair

I have to say, even in a low-scoring affair like tonight, my enjoyment in baseball has tripled since the ban on goo.