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Memories of Javy Baez

G-Fafif Nov 30 2021 08:09 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Nov 30 2021 09:03 AM

With Baez's agreement to wear Tiger stripes having reached the same “reportedly” consensus stage as the Scherzer, et al signings, let us enter Javy into the hall of memories. Fascinating if brief as a Met. Big homer in his first game. Amazing slide in his first week. Dreadful slump. Injury. Apparent transformation as a selective hitter. Public enemy numero uno, all brought on himself. Quickly forgiven. Best player on the team when the team was imploding. And now gone. Wonder if they ever found his earring.

Johnny Lunchbucket Nov 30 2021 08:22 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

Yeah, lost his earring in a play at home is what I will take away. Also, he was Lindor's boy and I woulda bet that connection would have been meaningful enough to continue the relationship. Thumbs-Down thing got too much attention. Left me confused as to who's on second this year. I don't think it's McNeil's job anymore, so maybe Cano, or maybe Escobar, or maybe Mauricio

Edgy MD Nov 30 2021 08:50 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

Terrific athlete who could shamelessly invent ways to play the game on the fly. Every team should have one. It's a shame he figured out how to use a one-armed pushup to avoid a tag before he learned plate discipline. But if the plate discipline enlightenment he seemingly discovered in his last five weeks here turns out to be more than a blip, the Mets could be sorry. Maddening to see him playing so well and the rest of the lineup around him had seemingly already begun their offseasons. Was all over this Steve Henderson of a ninth-inning rally, which officially took place months before he joined the team. He scores the winning run by, amazingly, coming around from first on a single to left. That's Mookie Wilson crazy. [YOUTUBE]VSO8ZTXzzV8[/YOUTUBE] Also, I'm still not sure he touched first on his infield hit.

Benjamin Grimm Nov 30 2021 08:53 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

I was hoping he'd come back. He was fun to watch.

A Boy Named Seo Nov 30 2021 08:57 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

I know I'm in the minority, but I got a huge kick out of the thumbs down thing and will always think of that when Javy comes up. I know fans have the right to boo and yyybbb, but why do players have to just take it? They don't. A quiet mirror of discontent back on the fans was perfect until its meaning became known. So talented on both sides of the game and outrageously fun to watch. I'll miss him a lot.

Willets Point Nov 30 2021 09:09 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

A Boy Named Seo wrote: I know I'm in the minority, but I got a huge kick out of the thumbs down thing and will always think of that when Javy comes up. I know fans have the right to boo and yyybbb, but why do players have to just take it? They don't. A quiet mirror of discontent back on the fans was perfect until its meaning became known. So talented on both sides of the game and outrageously fun to watch. I'll miss him a lot. You're not alone, the fans kind of deserved it.

smg58 Nov 30 2021 09:11 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

Perennial underachiever who had a few good weeks and acted like an ass. Another win for Eppler.

A Boy Named Seo Nov 30 2021 09:12 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

=smg58 post_id=82132 time=1638288688 user_id=62] Perennial underachiever who had a few good weeks and acted like an ass. Another win for Eppler.

This is definitely a take.

Frayed Knot Nov 30 2021 09:43 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

Willets Point wrote: A Boy Named Seo wrote: I know I'm in the minority, but I got a huge kick out of the thumbs down thing and will always think of that when Javy comes up. I know fans have the right to boo and yyybbb, but why do players have to just take it? They don't. A quiet mirror of discontent back on the fans was perfect until its meaning became known. So talented on both sides of the game and outrageously fun to watch. I'll miss him a lot. You're not alone, the fans kind of deserved it. But players are never going to win that kind of war. I understand WHY they did it (although the booing was out of frustration and didn't come within an Alonso HR of abuse) but they would have been better off just letting a slide (no pun intended).

Frayed Knot Nov 30 2021 09:46 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

Kind of surprised when I first started hearing about Detroit. Not really the place to commit to for the remainder of your career (or close to it) unless he has reason to believe that they're about to turn the corner.

seawolf17 Nov 30 2021 09:48 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

A Boy Named Seo wrote: I know I'm in the minority, but I got a huge kick out of the thumbs down thing and will always think of that when Javy comes up. I know fans have the right to boo and yyybbb, but why do players have to just take it? They don't. A quiet mirror of discontent back on the fans was perfect until its meaning became known. So talented on both sides of the game and outrageously fun to watch. I'll miss him a lot. This, mostly. I was worried about the strikeouts, and then suddenly I wasn't. Seemed like a likeable dude, overall. (Also annoyed because he leaves me with a really expensive guy on my autograph need list who only got 186 PA with us.)

roger_that Nov 30 2021 10:03 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

Can you really succeed as a .307 OBP guy? I don't see it. That's close to the Ordonez line.

roger_that Nov 30 2021 10:09 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

And just to head off the corrections of my misguided point, I understand he has virtues that Rey-Rey never touched. But all in all, what is Baez? A slightly above-average offensive and defensive player. (Comparison to RO here: https://stathead.com/baseball/player-comparison.cgi?request=1&sum=1&player_id1=baezja01&player_id2=ordonre01&type=b ) Rephrased, is it really worth a major contract to lock down an average player entering his 30s?

ashie62 Nov 30 2021 10:13 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

In his very short time as a Met I remember him as a bum.

MFS62 Nov 30 2021 10:23 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

He gave the fans thumbs, and they wanted to give him a different finger. Later

Edgy MD Nov 30 2021 10:32 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

Speaking as a fan, I didn't want to do that.

kcmets Nov 30 2021 10:32 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

It would be interesting if/and how much the Mets were willing to commit to Javy. I suppose if I were to chew on it a bit I could be convinced that overpaying him for three years would have been best for us but years matter to these guys when getting their last big payday...

Centerfield Nov 30 2021 10:34 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

One of the best athletes I've ever seen in baseball. Fun player. Just an ok hitter overall, unless that plate discipline he found in NY is sustainable. And I have no idea of knowing if it is. I would have been cool with keeping him, but I'm also cool with someone else, so long as we get another big bat.

Lefty Specialist Nov 30 2021 12:04 PM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

I'm willing to move on. I think sooner or later he'd wear out his welcome, as he did with many Cub fans. Can be great, can also be maddening in stretches. I don't think the plate discipline he showed in his two months here was a long-term trend. Tigers are building a contender and they saw him as a piece to build around.

Fman99 Nov 30 2021 12:33 PM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

I'm depressed. I love watching this guy play. Like all former Mets, destined for greatness in his post-Flushing career, so there's that.

bmfc1 Nov 30 2021 12:51 PM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

A magician on the basepaths. And now he'll never find his earring.

metsmarathon Nov 30 2021 01:23 PM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

=Fman99 post_id=82155 time=1638300823 user_id=86] I'm depressed. I love watching this guy play. Like all former Mets, destined for greatness in his post-Flushing career, so there's that.

yeah, this is where i'm feeling. he was a helluvalot of fun to watch play and approach the game, even if his on base skills were usually limited at best. he bounced back remarkably well from the overblown thumbs down thing, which had me thinking he'd be a perfectly fine long term new york sportsmedia survivor. i don't know that the 6 year deal wouldn't give me much concerns, but i'll miss getting the opportunity to watch him make baseball magic every day. i hope for his sake that his improved on-basing in the last few weeks of the season take hold, as i think that i shall be rooting for him in his future endeavors.

Ceetar Nov 30 2021 01:33 PM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

I enjoyed watching him some, but he definitely wasn't a good fit for the 2021 Mets, as they needed more OBP guys (and pitching) But with some of the acquisitions this year, it might've been more a fit for 2022, as it seems like they could use a power bat now, but there are other ways to get that too. Plus you get less value out of Javy playing 2B than SS. He was always going to be a better fit elsewhere if only for that reason.

Frayed Knot Nov 30 2021 01:57 PM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

Fun to watch ... except when he was exasperating Great baserunner ... aside from those times where he was being stupid and there were several of those Magician with the glove ... at least when he wasn't being error prone. Made 20 this season including six in just over 1/4 season (44 starts) as a NYM If the OBP jump was real then he would have been worth retaining but I'd hate to bet on the six week (if that) stretch being the real him and the six year track record, the illusion. And I certainly wouldn't want to extend that bet for seven years.

roger_that Nov 30 2021 05:01 PM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

Frayed Knot wrote: If the OBP jump was real then he would have been worth retaining but I'd hate to bet on the six week (if that) stretch being the real him and the six year track record, the illusion. And I certainly wouldn't want to extend that bet for seven years. I've seen studies of exactly this. Players' OBP rates after their first three full seasons tend to be remarkably stable. Almost without exception, your OBP in season 7 is going to be what it was after season 3, and in season 10 about the same.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2021 05:03 PM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

Any links to these studies?

roger_that Nov 30 2021 05:41 PM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

Don't remember where I saw it, but I think it was so universal you could probably do a quick and dirty study yourself. Just take someone with a full career, and use baseball-reference to compute his OBP after his third full year. Compare that to his career OBP and it will be very close. Almost no one showed significant growth, and that was always when the league OBP went up. Basically, this study showed me that a player's OBP at 25 is his lifetime OBP.

roger_that Nov 30 2021 06:09 PM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

One example I can remember is that Willie Mays had a lifetime OBP that was .002 lower than his OBP at age 24, which was odd because Mays had some of his highest OBPs after age 40. I would have expected that his OBP would go up as he aged but it fell a bit.

batmagadanleadoff Nov 30 2021 06:28 PM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

=roger_that post_id=82211 time=1638320943 user_id=128] One example I can remember is that Willie Mays had a lifetime OBP that was .002 lower than his OBP at age 24, which was odd because Mays had some of his highest OBPs after age 40. I would have expected that his OBP would go up as he aged but it fell a bit.

Mays's OBP did go up at the end of his career. He had some of his best OBP's at the tail end of his career and even led the NL in OBP in 1971, his last full season as a Giant, with an OBP of .425, the highest of his career. He fell off the cliff, so to speak, in '73, though, when he went into severe decline, enough so to call it quits.



My understanding is, at least with elite players, is that their OBP's usually increrase as they enter the tail ends of their careers as they suddenly develop a penchant for fouling off tough pitches and swinging more selectively in order to compensate for loss of bat speed and strength.

G-Fafif Nov 30 2021 06:35 PM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

Tim McCarver voice: Although Pete Alonso is known as the Polar Bear, Javy Baez is the player who seems to be the most polarizing of figures among Mets fans.

Ceetar Nov 30 2021 10:12 PM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

One example I can remember is that Willie Mays had a lifetime OBP that was .002 lower than his OBP at age 24, which was odd because Mays had some of his highest OBPs after age 40. I would have expected that his OBP would go up as he aged but it fell a bit. well OBP is gonna factor in batted ball luck. You want to look more at BB%. Mays for his career was 11.7% And most of his seasons were pretty much around there. '71 and '72 saw steep increases though, but perhaps that a late career "stop swinging as much" stance of some sort. But anyway, his "Best" years were '65, '64 '62 and '54, and his BB% there 11.9, 12.3, 11 and 10.3. All pretty much around that 11.7% career mark. Also the elites like May are always going to be outliers. You want to talk about modern guys that have made their OBP/walk rate jump? You want to talk about Starling Marte. Career 5.3 BB%. 2021? 8.2. His BB/K ratio SIGNIFICANTLY better in 2021 than any other year. [url]https://blogs.fangraphs.com/starling-marte-is-not-swinging-like-never-before/ Some analysis there that suggests that Marte's increase isn't just all smoke and mirrors either. But yeah, for the most part, players don't randomly develop better/different skills. You have a good eye or you don't. The flip side is a guy like Matt Harvey, who has pretty poor control, and once he couldn't fake it with plus velocity, it became very clear he didn't have that additional skill to be elite without it.

Edgy MD Nov 30 2021 10:44 PM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

=roger_that post_id=82208 time=1638319296 user_id=128] Don't remember where I saw it, but I think it was so universal you could probably do a quick and dirty study yourself. Just take someone with a full career, and use baseball-reference to compute his OBP after his third full year. Compare that to his career OBP and it will be very close. Almost no one showed significant growth, and that was always when the league OBP went up. Basically, this study showed me that a player's OBP at 25 is his lifetime OBP.

I could certainly do that, but it would be a sample size of one.



I'm sure I can name all sorts of guys who showed significant growth after 25 but that would be cherry picking. I'm also sure I can name guys I think showed growth, but on close inspection, their age 25 OBP indeed equaled their career rate, more or less.



I imagine it is harder to develop on-base-percentage later, but I'm dubious about the claim because experience tells me that batting averages fluctuate more than walk rates, so stability in on-base percentages can't be as much the rule as all that. I also know that power can increase later, and walk rates often increase due to power increases.



Perhaps batting averages fall off at about the same rate. Perhaps some of these guys do show growth after 25 but fall off at the end of their career to offset that. But I can't refute (or endorse) a study I can't see.

roger_that Dec 01 2021 01:27 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

It wasn't a study of one; it was of a whole decade of players, as I recall. But I was inviting you to try the method. You'll find that the vast majority of players show almost no improvement in their OBP past age 25 or so, which is the earliest point that they could show a significant sample size. The figure that sticks in my head is .012 BP points on average, which is a rounding error. Many players post-age 25 OBPs decline, about a quarter to a third, as I recall. I cited Mays as an example because i knew for a fact that his post-age-40 OBP went up, but there was too much decline built in overall for him to be the counter-example I was expecting him to be. Since I don't have the study handy (it was on some stats site, of which I subscribe to several, and it was at least a year ago), I'll have to settle for stating that I think anyone who think Baez is capable of improving his OBP from here on in is thinking wishfully, not realistically.

roger_that Dec 01 2021 01:56 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

According to this [url]https://sny.tv/articles/javier-baez-mets-what-happened?fbclid=IwAR22YLI3Yr8W8AJl4hcxC7L1-cqfJoi6Ha7NdKYPKPI6zsBiaoMVtfepFhA , the Marte deal blew up signing Baez.

TransMonk Dec 01 2021 11:03 AM Re: Memories of Javy Baez

Javy's opt-out is in just two years...when Cano comes off the Mets' books. Hmmm... I wasn't all that excited when he was acquired and I'm not that disappointed that he's leaving for Detroit.