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Collective Bargaining Agreement

Benjamin Grimm Dec 01 2021 09:25 AM

Mark Feinsand of MLB.com has an update: The latest on the CBA negotiations Sources said the MLBPA is seeking a significant reduction in revenue sharing, which would make it more difficult for small-market clubs to remain competitive. The same can be said for reducing the free-agent eligibility from six years of big league service time to five years. MLB made three proposals last week that included a number of concessions for the players: • The elimination of the current qualifying offer system, which would remove Draft-pick compensation attached to any free agent • A Draft lottery similar to the one used by the NBA • The universal DH, which would add 15 everyday jobs for hitters in the NL; the average salary for a DH in 2021 was $9.2 million • An increase to the minimum player salary • An increase in the CBT threshold

Ceetar Dec 01 2021 09:37 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'm not sure what MLBPA's angle is in the revenue sharing bit? Is it the idea that if the Marlins aren't raking in 100 million from other teams, they'd have to spend money to make money? It's absolutely not true that it would be more difficult for small-market clubs to remain competitive and you can't assert that without citing real data (which, we/Feinsand doesn't have access to). The same with the universal DH, there's definitely not "15 everyday jobs" necessarily, as every team doesn't just have a straight DH. It's not quite the "windfall" for the players that it's projected to be. Overtime, perhaps, as NL teams sign an additional hitter and then other teams have to sign an additional hitter to keep up, salaries should rise a bit. But that's going to be market driven and depends on the owners actually spending the money. it's not automatic. It's basically a bullshit promise by the owners "we promise to spend more money!" yeah? well do it. You don't get points for saying it. This entire article actually, is very much owner-favored. I'd like to see some more balanced reporting. He reports a lack of urgency from the player standpoint, but then quotes all the players as pointing out why the deadline is artificial. It's not Spring Training yet, certainly, why should the players back down on their position because of the owners threats? Make 'em follow through on their threat to shut down the sport.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 01 2021 10:15 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I agree about the DH - it doesn't create more jobs. It creates different jobs. Wanna create more jobs? Expand the rosters. Otherwise it's a zero sum game; add a DH and lose a position somewhere else.

bmfc1 Dec 01 2021 10:21 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=82270 time=1638378954 user_id=68] I agree about the DH - it doesn't create more jobs. It creates different jobs. Wanna create more jobs? Expand the rosters. Otherwise it's a zero sum game; add a DH and lose a position somewhere else.

It creates some higher-paying jobs but not new jobs. If the MLBPA was concerned about more of their members it would (also) push for roster expansion to 27, so every team could carry 3 C's if they wanted, or a major league roster of 30 with the game-day roster being set at 26 (something like that).

Fman99 Dec 01 2021 10:38 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I hate the fucking designated hitter though. So there's that. I better write my Congressman.

Johnny Lunchbucket Dec 01 2021 10:42 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Not that it'll ever be agreed to but MLB would do well to reduce roster sizes, or at least reduce the active guys... might help game length, would reward versatility and decision making. Like hockey they could carry 25, but have only 20 or 21 available for that day. The scratches can get seats in the stands. They still get paid and all

kcmets Dec 01 2021 11:27 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

We should have a contest thread guessing how many days after the stroke of midnight tonight this whole thing will drag on.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 01 2021 12:28 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

MLB lockout remains likely as MLBPA, league reportedly hold last-minute talks in Texas Here are a few items in the MLBPA's latest proposal, according to ESPN's Jesse Rogers: Free agency at age 29 1/2 or after five years of service time, whichever comes first. Players become arbitration-eligible after two seasons rather than three. Expanded 12-team postseason with leagues realigned to two divisions each. Luxury-tax threshold raised from $210 million to $240 million. Advertising patches on uniforms.

smg58 Dec 01 2021 12:41 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

If owners tell their GMs that they want to spend a specific amount on payroll, then the more that goes to a DH, the less that goes to everybody else. It will not put more total money in the players' hands. I would happily negotiate that away to keep a sane playoff system and not have a draft lottery. Revenue sharing should be based on how much money the teams bring in -- which would require the teams to open up their book to public scrutiny. Of course that should happen, and of course it won't. I've argued before that 5.5 years would eliminate the service time manipulation at the beginning of the season, which would serve the interests of the sport.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 01 2021 12:46 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'd be okay with a draft lottery. The bottom 15 teams pick in random order, then the top 15 teams pick in random order.

Ceetar Dec 01 2021 12:57 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I like the idea of the best team that didn't make the playoffs picks first.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 01 2021 01:01 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

That's a good idea. Then work your way down from there, and then go to the worst team that did make the playoffs and work your way up.

Centerfield Dec 01 2021 01:25 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=Ceetar post_id=82295 time=1638388647 user_id=102] I like the idea of the best team that didn't make the playoffs picks first.

It's alarming how often I find myself agreeing with ceetar recently.



I mean, what's up with that.

Edgy MD Dec 01 2021 01:26 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Changes in how you or I would like to see the draft conducted is one thing. What is a draft lottery supposed to do for the players, though?

seawolf17 Dec 01 2021 01:31 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I suppose it maybe, theoretically puts the small number of best incoming players in situations where maybe, theoretically, they can contribute sooner to a team that maybe, theoretically, could be on the cusp of a playoff spot.

Centerfield Dec 01 2021 01:47 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Changes in how you or I would like to see the draft conducted is one thing. What is a draft lottery supposed to do for the players, though? Remove an incentive/justification for tanking.

Edgy MD Dec 01 2021 01:58 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I guess that makes sense. Ending the draft entirely would do that also, but I imagine that's not what the union wants.

Lefty Specialist Dec 01 2021 03:00 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'd be shocked if any real negotiating gets done between midnight and the day after the Super Bowl. Only when shit gets real will the sides begin to talk in earnest. There's no pressure to come to a deal now, on either side. Once Spring Training gets threatened (and the regular season beyond that), you'll see some movement.

nymr83 Dec 01 2021 03:30 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: I guess that makes sense. Ending the draft entirely would do that also, but I imagine that's not what the union wants. Nope. Unlike NFL/NBA where drafted players immediately brcome dues paying union members (and even there they still dont fully align), the interests of the MLBPA differ from the interests of 90% of draftees/minor leaguers.

nymr83 Dec 01 2021 03:33 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

With regard to revenue sharing, if I were the union I would want it gone. If the Pitates owner cant remain profitable without the dollars, he will hopefully sell to someone who can - or better still for the players, sell to a rich guy willing to spend on salaries for his own fun not profit.

ashie62 Dec 01 2021 03:51 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Changes in how you or I would like to see the draft conducted is one thing. What is a draft lottery supposed to do for the players, though? Remove an incentive/justification for tanking. Do MLB teams tank for the draft. I don't think so. It's not like the NBA where you would likely get an instant impact starter. Ys on the DH. I can't stand watching pitchers bat. Agreed, a 27 man roster would create jobs and cut much of the nonsensical daily callups.

Edgy MD Dec 01 2021 04:37 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=nymr83 post_id=82312 time=1638397999 user_id=54] With regard to revenue sharing, if I were the union I would want it gone. If the Pitates owner cant remain profitable without the dollars, he will hopefully sell to someone who can - or better still for the players, sell to a rich guy willing to spend on salaries for his own fun not profit.

Or just end market exclusivity.

Edgy MD Dec 01 2021 04:38 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Changes in how you or I would like to see the draft conducted is one thing. What is a draft lottery supposed to do for the players, though? Remove an incentive/justification for tanking. Do MLB teams tank for the draft. I don't think so. It's not like the NBA where you would likely get an instant impact starter. Ys on the DH. I can't stand watching pitchers bat. Agreed, a 27 man roster would create jobs and cut much of the nonsensical daily callups. This year was a real eyebrow-raiser with four 100-loss teams, and two of those were 110-loss teams, so there certainly is suspicion of tanking.

Frayed Knot Dec 01 2021 04:55 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 01 2021 05:11 PM

=nymr83 post_id=82312 time=1638397999 user_id=54] With regard to revenue sharing, if I were the union I would want it gone. If the Pitates owner cant remain profitable without the dollars, he will hopefully sell to someone who can - or better still for the players, sell to a rich guy willing to spend on salaries for his own fun not profit.

From the players' POV revenue sharing siphons money from the richer teams, thereby leaving them with less money that they can spend, and shovels it to the poorer teams

where the players believe it doesn't get spent. iow, they believe revenue sharing is more a way to protect profits and less one that promotes more even payroll distribution.

Centerfield Dec 01 2021 05:01 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: =ashie62 post_id=82313 time=1638399071 user_id=90] =Centerfield post_id=82302 time=1638391640 user_id=65] Remove an incentive/justification for tanking. Do MLB teams tank for the draft. I don't think so. It's not like the NBA where you would likely get an instant impact starter. Ys on the DH. I can't stand watching pitchers bat. Agreed, a 27 man roster would create jobs and cut much of the nonsensical daily callups.

This year was a real eyebrow-raiser with four 100-loss teams, and two of those were 110-loss teams, so there certainly is suspicion of tanking.




To clarify, I don't think teams tank for the draft. I think teams tank to save money and justify that by citing the draft. That's why ceetar's idea makes so much sense. A team would have no choice but to try for middle of the pack. Which means more contracts for aging veterans who might not be getting the deals they would deserve if all teams were in good faith trying to win.

Centerfield Dec 01 2021 05:06 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Also, if they want to challenge the 6 year eligibility for FA, and reduce it to 5, we may be locked out for a long time.

Frayed Knot Dec 01 2021 05:07 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Here are a few items in the MLBPA's latest proposal, according to ESPN's Jesse Rogers: Free agency at age 29 1/2 or after five years of service time, whichever comes first. -- Something is going to change on how FAs are determined and it's going to involve age in some form. I'm not going to sweat the details on this one. Players become arbitration-eligible after two seasons rather than three. -- =#0000FF]Most already are after two-plus seasons and changes in recent CBAs have seen it creep closer to two-even. The advantage of how they work it now is that there's no specific cut-off where teams know in advance how they can manipulate an extra year. Calling it two years would put this back in but there are probably more details than we're seeing now Expanded 12-team postseason with leagues realigned to two divisions each. -- =#0000FF]I'm very against expanding playoffs but would have to see this realignment scheme Luxury-tax threshold raised from $210 million to $240 million. -- =#0000FF]Fine, whatever. Advertising patches on uniforms. -- =#0000FF]Is neither side Ever going to say 'enough is enough'? I mean, I know the answer to that but is there really no way to preserve tradition and make $30mil rather than look like a NASCAR driver so you can get $35?

Ceetar Dec 01 2021 05:11 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'm fine with advertising patches, advertise anywhere for all I care. For one ,the uniforms are already rather prominently an advertisement for a clothing brand, and everything else is splattered with ads. It'd be cool if there could be a little bit cleaner of a game entirely, where every shot wasn't sponsored, but not cashing in on the last two or three spots just seems silly at this point. And I'd rather teams focused on the advertising revenue than the ticket/beer revenue.

Edgy MD Dec 01 2021 05:14 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Also a wonderful way to incentivize teams to try to stay competitive and out of last place — promotion and relegation.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 01 2021 05:32 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Also a wonderful way to incentivize teams to try to stay competitive and out of last place — promotion and relegation. Also, I'd like to see more pepper games.

TransMonk Dec 01 2021 06:27 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

https://external-preview.redd.it/d9R3b4Q7ShBkS8841aSp_ODovl5b3Ve8ljoCSDsKOCY.jpg?auto=webp&s=4c71bd274a9fd3ae771d4831bb18a9935bb427b7>

G-Fafif Dec 01 2021 10:20 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Mets.com has creepily removed all current news stories highlighting now locked out players and replaced them with evergreen content. MLB.com has done similar scrubbing.

G-Fafif Dec 02 2021 05:55 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

You may notice that the content on this site looks a little different than usual. The reason for this is because the Collective Bargaining Agreement between the players and the league expired just before midnight on Dec. 1 and a new CBA is currently being negotiated between the owners and the MLBPA. Until a new agreement is reached, there will be limitations on the type of content we display. As a result, you will see a lot more content that focuses on the game's rich history. Once a new agreement is reached, the up-to-the minute news and analysis you have come to expect will continue as usual. https://www.mlb.com/news/a-note-about-our-website-content

Lefty Specialist Dec 02 2021 06:20 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

That's very Pravda-ish of them. I thought their reporting side was independent from the business side but this proves that's not the case.

bmfc1 Dec 02 2021 06:24 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

So less than 24 hours after the magnificent FA signings the Mets are not allowed to talk about it. What a bunch of dopes.

Lefty Specialist Dec 02 2021 06:35 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

MLB Network operating normally, talking about the lockout and its effects.

Marshmallowmilkshake Dec 02 2021 06:39 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Lefty Specialist wrote: That's very Pravda-ish of them. I thought their reporting side was independent from the business side but this proves that's not the case. Might not be MLB's call. Mark Feinsand @Feinsand According to the league, in order to comply with federal labor law during the lockout, MLB is making every effort to not use players' names, images or likenesses for promotional, advertising or other commercial purposes.

stevejrogers Dec 02 2021 07:29 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Lefty Specialist wrote: That's very Pravda-ish of them. I thought their reporting side was independent from the business side but this proves that's not the case. Might not be MLB's call. Mark Feinsand @Feinsand According to the league, in order to comply with federal labor law during the lockout, MLB is making every effort to not use players' names, images or likenesses for promotional, advertising or other commercial purposes. IOW, they can do a piece on multiple multiple-time Cy winners on the same roster in anticipation of Scherzer-DeGrom, but it can't include this year's pennant drive with Scherzer joining Kershaw. Or continue Detroit's bemoaning of Verlander and Scherzer on the same staff.

bmfc1 Dec 02 2021 09:09 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 02 2021 09:35 AM

MLB players are changing their Twitter avatar to a generic silhouette of a baseball player. [TWEET]https://twitter.com/IamTrevorMay/status/1466443593476804609[/TWEET]

duan Dec 02 2021 09:26 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Also a wonderful way to incentivize teams to try to stay competitive and out of last place — promotion and relegation. this

Centerfield Dec 02 2021 09:26 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

You know, if they wanted to make revenue sharing fair, it would be based upon the size of the market, rather than actual revenue. For instance, if a NY team has to share with KC, I can see the logic in that. But a team shouldn't have to share money with a team in a similar market. So for instance, San Diego shouldn't have to send money to Pittsburgh simply because the Pirates put out a shitty product.

Frayed Knot Dec 02 2021 11:37 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Trading off players in their final year of a contract at the trade deadline of a lousy season isn't remotely the same as 'tanking' for draft picks. Those teams aren't in some sort of 'race to the bottom', they're re-positioning their roster with future years in mind and they have their eyes on the players they get in return as the surest and most immediate pieces for a winning club, players who are a lot more advanced and much more likely to succeed than some current schoolboy. Any improvement in draft position is almost certain to be marginal and will be multiple years from paying off if and when it actually does. The Cubs this season, for instance, were four games under .500 when they traded Baez, Rizzo, Bryant, and whoeverelsetheydealt at the deadline. They wound up 20 games under and looks like they'll get the 7th overall pick as opposed to being on track for somewhere in the 11th-14th range (assuming they stayed the course AND maintained their April-July pace ... another big IF). Jumping from 12th overall to 7th is not exactly a sure-fire 'Get Rich Quick' scheme for improving your ball club. If MLB wants to Lottery-ize the draft I'm not going to cry about it, but realize that it's essentially a gimmick that sort of* works in the NBA because draft picks there are capable of, and expected to, provide immediate help. It doesn't always work but finding that one true stud is generally seen as the only way to improve enough to contend in that league so it makes things worth the gamble. * 'Sort of' in that while being worst doesn't guarantee the 1st overall, every year there are cries about why some 25 win team gets a better pick than some squad who won half that; every year teams get top picks and whiff on them; and then there are more than occasional cries of 'Fix!' They've also tweaked the formula multiple times over the years and there are still complaints about them not getting it right. And, btw, teams still tank, so it hasn't exactly been a cure for the targeted the disease.

Edgy MD Dec 02 2021 11:46 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

End the NBA draft, too!

Frayed Knot Dec 02 2021 06:22 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=bmfc1 post_id=82382 time=1638461392 user_id=73] MLB players are changing their Twitter avatar to a generic silhouette of a baseball player.

So MLB isn't going out of its way to avoid using the players' name/image/likeness

while the players are avoiding the league's trademarks and logos.



Even if all of that is legally suggested, or even necessary, it still comes off as childishly petty.

Centerfield Dec 10 2021 09:14 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

This lockout is even more boring than I anticipated. Discouraging that we haven't heard a peep from either side.

kcmets Dec 10 2021 09:27 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

MLB Network is airing a Cardinals at Mets game today at 6PM. Set your DVR's 'cause it's a biggie! http://ultimatemets.com/gamedetail.php?gameno=8094&tabno=D

kcmets Dec 10 2021 10:17 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The IGT - http://phpbb3.ultimatemets.com/archives/17900/f14_t17982.shtml Tabloid Cover Discussion - http://phpbb3.ultimatemets.com/archives/17900/f1_t17987.shtml

Edgy MD Dec 10 2021 10:52 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=metsirish]Give him a big fecking cheer and standing O , then boo if you want....Christ.

Man, metsirish really posted with his heart, didn't he?

Willets Point Dec 10 2021 12:27 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

My son still talks about how I cried at the end of that game.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 22 2021 12:14 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I just saw an article that said that negotiations occurred last Thursday (December 16) regarding some of the easier-to-resolve fringe issues. The plan is to start talking about the difficult stuff (arbitration, free agency, luxury tax, etc.) in January.

Frayed Knot Dec 22 2021 02:49 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Benjamin Grimm wrote: The plan is to start talking about the difficult stuff (arbitration, free agency, luxury tax, etc.) in January. Well, you don't want to rush things.

Ceetar Dec 22 2021 05:37 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

timing is part of the negotiation. As we get closer to Spring Training, the players position gets stronger because they gain the ability to threaten to strike.

nymr83 Dec 22 2021 06:47 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=Ceetar post_id=83533 time=1640219835 user_id=102] timing is part of the negotiation. As we get closer to Spring Training, the players position gets stronger because they gain the ability to threaten to strike.

Can they strike while locked out? I did not think so.



In any case, both sides have more urgency as spring gets closer. The owners dont lose major revenue until games are missed. The players are not typically paid in the off-season, so they arent missing checks til then either.



The owners may be losing some merch sales on the margins and players losing the ability to rehab om tram property plus those who arent signed cant sign so they have to live with more uncertainty. But overall, neither side is hurting yet.

Fman99 Jan 21 2022 01:08 PM Lockout Thread

Forgive me if this is a rehash of an existing thread but I am a lazy, lazy man and not willing to go searching it out. I'd like to go on record as saying that January is a month starved enough for meaningful baseball updates, even in the best of times. This lockout is making my brain hurt though. I just want baseball updates. And I want to see guys playing catch in the sunshine come mid February. So fuck labor disputes, F em in the A with a big rubber D

bmfc1 Jan 21 2022 07:20 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

We should be nearing the days when we see a player "check-in early". Buck would likely be there now to acclimate himself.

ashie62 Jan 23 2022 05:03 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I am distracted enough by football and hoops not stress on the lockout.

kcmets Jan 23 2022 05:33 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

We should be nearing the days when we see a player "check-in early". Buck would likely be there now to acclimate himself. Right and https://www.springtrainingcountdown.com/

Willets Point Jan 23 2022 08:18 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

We might even be getting photos of someone vacuuming in Port St. Lucie to get excited about.

Edgy MD Jan 23 2022 08:48 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Is any outlet doing a particularly good job of covering negotiations?

MFS62 Jan 24 2022 08:37 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

No outlets have been covering negotiations because there haven't been any recently. They're scheduled to meet in person (the last one as a ZOOM call) today. https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-mlbpa-to-meet-in-person-to-talk-cba?partnerId=zh-20220124-533105-mlb-1-A&qid=1026&utm_id=zh-20220124-533105-mlb-1-A&bt_ee=qFRcfH7sYDypHe8PoH%2FlNMwcQqqvHwx26Z1QPFd6B5sp8h1MLBYvFdGrCWCCHIKi&bt_ts=1643033532026 Later

kcmets Jan 24 2022 10:15 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

MLB lockout: MLBPA to present counter-offer to owners during in-person bargaining session Monday -- CBS Sports

batmagadanleadoff Jan 24 2022 10:22 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The two sides will probably never come to an agreement and so there'll never be any more Major League Baseball again, ever.

Benjamin Grimm Jan 24 2022 10:29 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I doubt that that will happen, but I do wonder, if this thing drags on, if the owners are considering the possibility of replacement players.

Frayed Knot Jan 24 2022 11:17 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

They can't possibly believe they can sell that ... can they?

Benjamin Grimm Jan 24 2022 11:26 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I really doubt it, but still, I'm wondering if it's in the back of their minds.

Edgy MD Jan 24 2022 01:19 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Well, if it cuts salaries by 95% or so, they don't have to sell it very far.

kcmets Jan 24 2022 02:02 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Well, if it cuts salaries by 95% or so, they don't have to sell it very far. This makes zero sense. I go to very few games now as it is, I'm certainly going to go see scabs play for pennies on the dollar. Sell it very far to who? The reluctant owners? The front office staffs? The scabs?

Benjamin Grimm Jan 24 2022 02:18 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The Chicago Sun-Times wrote: NEW YORK — Locked-out Major League Baseball players withdrew their proposal for more liberalized free agency and lowered their proposed decrease in revenue sharing Monday. Players had previously asked that players be allowed to become free agents after five years of service with some age provisions rather than the current six. The union had asked that the revenue-sharing transfer amount be cut from $100 million annually to about $30 million. The full article: MLB, MLBPA resume labor negotiations They're going to talk again tomorrow.

Edgy MD Jan 24 2022 02:25 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Well, if it cuts salaries by 95% or so, they don't have to sell it very far. This makes zero sense. I go to very few games now as it is, I'm certainly going to go see scabs play for pennies on the dollar. Sell it very far to who? The reluctant owners? The front office staffs? The scabs? I thought it made more than zero sense when I wrote it. I refer to selling it to the consumer. You don't have to go to any games. If a substandard product is offered to an otherwise vacant marketplace, history suggests there will be buyers, whether or not it's you or me. I know plenty of folks who attended NFL scab games, and a lot more who watched 'em on TV. I wasn't among them, but there they were.

kcmets Jan 24 2022 02:39 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Right, I guess. And if I'm going to rant I should proofread better too. I meant, "I'm certainly not going to go see scabs play for pennies on the dollar."

MFS62 Jan 24 2022 03:10 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Frayed Knot wrote: They can't possibly believe they can sell that ... can they? (My sarcasm speaking): No, but they'll be thinking of all the jerseys they will be able to sell with new names on the back. Later

Edgy MD Jan 24 2022 03:27 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

If they thought there was a market for scab jerseys, I imagine they'd do that in a second. To be clear, I certainly don't think it should happen. I don't even think it will, as "labor peace" was Commissioner Manfred's brand when he got the job. Without that brand, the owners could well wonder what they are letting him run their business for. But I think it's certainly a realistic possibility. I think the way baseball is run in this country is crazy. Plenty of things crazier than scabbing are things we take for granted.

kcmets Jan 24 2022 03:55 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Plenty of things crazier than scabbing are things we take for granted. No need to do that. Please. We're talking baseball and an antitrust nightmare. Not all the other crazier things we (might) take for granted.

Frayed Knot Jan 24 2022 04:26 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I think there'd be near zero interest in replacement baseball. Plus I don't think the owners are harboring the same pipe-dream as they had back in '94 when they convinced themselves that by playing their cards exactly right they'd finally be able to break the union. Football is different. Many regular fans seem willing to follow anything as long as it's attached to their favorite logo-ed helmet. Casual fans rarely know more than a handful of players on the field at any one time anyway so it wouldn't change much for them. And you would still be able to bet; now more than ever.

metsmarathon Jan 25 2022 07:20 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

as always, baseball is held to a higher standard than football. football can get away with scab games, and probably would do just fine. basketball, star-driven as it is, could probably get away with scab players better than baseball. but if baseball were to go that way... hoo boy! there would be outrage! empty stadiums! jerseys rent in the streets! and also the fans would still yell at the greedy players union for not settling for less of a share of revenues.

kcmets Feb 01 2022 09:00 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Has anyone heard a peep or two about anything going on with this? I just scrolled like a dozen pages of Google News App Sports and there isn't one baseball related story.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 01 2022 09:16 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Another meeting has been scheduled for today. I suppose that by tonight we'll have some kind of update.

Benjamin Grimm Feb 01 2022 01:52 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Today's meeting lasted 90 minutes. It was "contentious" and "little progress was made" according to US News and Word Report. Little Movement in Talks to End Baseball Lockout

The Hot Corner Feb 01 2022 08:53 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I swear, it often seems that baseball just wants to run it's fans away. To the best of my knowledge, none* of my local friends pay even the slightest attention to baseball. Some of them never played and were never really fans, while others seemed to abandon the game following the last labor strike in 1994-1995. They just found other pursuits to occupy their time and never looked back. My best friend said (paraphrasing) he had no sympathy for multimillionaires arguing with billionaires over how to divide up the fan's money, then charging the fans ever increasing prices to subsidize their greed. So F--- Them! I don't need them. This sentiment resonates with most of the others. *The one friend I did get interested in baseball and became at least a casual Mets fan, moved to the coast a few years ago.

batmagadanleadoff Feb 01 2022 09:59 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The Hot Corner wrote: My best friend said (paraphrasing) he had no sympathy for multimillionaires arguing with billionaires over how to divide up the fan's money, then charging the fans ever increasing prices to subsidize their greed. So F--- Them! I don't need them. This sentiment resonates with most of the others. Yes, but how is that different from any of the other team sports?

kcmets Feb 02 2022 05:46 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Spring training ‘likely' to be delayed by MLB lockout, insiders say [BLOCKQUOTE]You could see this coming from a mile away. USA Today's Bob Nightengale reports “Spring training likely to be delayed as Tuesday negotiations go nowhere.” [/BLOCKQUOTE] NJ.com: https://www.nj.com/yankees/2022/02/mlb-spring-training-likely-to-be-delayed-insider-says.html

The Hot Corner Feb 02 2022 08:09 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The Hot Corner wrote: My best friend said (paraphrasing) he had no sympathy for multimillionaires arguing with billionaires over how to divide up the fan's money, then charging the fans ever increasing prices to subsidize their greed. So F--- Them! I don't need them. This sentiment resonates with most of the others. Yes, but how is that different from any of the other team sports? Not that different other than maybe baseball seems to have more frequent and longer work stoppages than do the other professional team sports. It is not like my friends follow the NBA or NHL either. They follow the NFL and golf, that's about it.

batmagadanleadoff Feb 03 2022 12:06 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The Hot Corner wrote: The Hot Corner wrote: My best friend said (paraphrasing) he had no sympathy for multimillionaires arguing with billionaires over how to divide up the fan's money, then charging the fans ever increasing prices to subsidize their greed. So F--- Them! I don't need them. This sentiment resonates with most of the others. Yes, but how is that different from any of the other team sports? Not that different other than maybe baseball seems to have more frequent and longer work stoppages than do the other professional team sports. It is not like my friends follow the NBA or NHL either. They follow the NFL and golf, that's about it. Well, you have the Panthers. Maybe they'd follow MLB if there was only a local home team to follow.

The Hot Corner Feb 03 2022 05:40 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The Hot Corner wrote: =batmagadanleadoff post_id=85431 time=1643777974 user_id=68] Yes, but how is that different from any of the other team sports? Not that different other than maybe baseball seems to have more frequent and longer work stoppages than do the other professional team sports. It is not like my friends follow the NBA or NHL either. They follow the NFL and golf, that's about it. Well, you have the Panthers. Maybe they'd follow MLB if there was only a local home team to follow.

Most of them do like the Panthers. I don't think a MLB team would attract them though. We already have the Carolina Hurricanes and the Charlotte Hornets, but none of my friends seem to notice or care. I do know a few people in Raleigh that are die hard Hurricane fans & season ticket holders. I can't recall anyone ever mentioning attending a Hornets game (or even mentioning the Hornets in general).



Truthfully, in North Carolina it is college basketball (and to a lesser extent football and other sports) that rule supreme. I guess people feel a connection to their alma maters (or the school of the parents, grandchildren, kids, etc.). I know many season ticket holders for UNC, NC State, Duke, Wake Forest or ECU sports.

Frayed Knot Feb 03 2022 06:15 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Back to the topic at hand: "Major League Baseball on Thursday requested the immediate assistance of a federal mediator to help resolve the sport's lockout ... potentially inserting the presence of a neutral party to end a work stoppage now in its third month. The league reached out to the Federal Mediation and Conciliation Service, a governmental agency that attempts to help resolve labor disputes, sources said. Mediation is not mandatory, and the MLB Players Association would need to agree to the involvement of a third party." Jeff Passan - ESPN.com

metsmarathon Feb 04 2022 07:29 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

interesting that mlb called in the mediator, when my understanding is that they have been the intransigent side. what, if anything, am i to read into this? is the owners' stance that their position is already giving away so much, that to move further to the players is unacceptable, and that they want the mediator to come in and show the players how good the offer really is...?

Edgy MD Feb 04 2022 08:38 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I read that the owners don't want a delay in the season. Also, if people don't like baseball, it's probably because there aren't enough players named Bake anymore.

kcmets Feb 04 2022 08:44 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

It's just more Collective Bullshit... - Owners lock out the players. - The two sides meet a couple of times. - Players don't budge. - Owners throw hands up in air and say players can't be dealt with by us and suggest a third-party neutral side to deal with the 'unreasonableness.' - Players say no way Jose*. - Owners say they tried and players won't sit down and negotiate. - Players say, 'fuck off, you're the one's who shut things down.' *Not sure if this part happened yet, but my guess is it will.

stevejrogers Feb 04 2022 12:11 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

- Players say no way Jose*. *Not sure if this part happened yet, but my guess is it will. ESPN has reported that we have in fact entered this stage. *sigh*

MFS62 Feb 04 2022 01:45 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

- Owners throw hands up in air and say players can't be dealt with by us and suggest a third-party neutral side to deal with the 'unreasonableness.' - Players say no way Jose*. I read one prediction (SI.COM?) that said the players would reject the third party because in the last lockout doing that "delayed things and did help reach any settlement". And I'm guessing that neither side has the cajones to submit to binding arbitration because they could lose bigtime. I still believe they will be smart enough not to mess this up completely. I believe we will see an agreement reached between February 18th and February 22nd, letting spring training start on about March 1st and a shortened schedule for ST games from Monday March 14th till Tuesday March 29th. Those 2 weeks of games and maybe 3 weeks of practice will be enough for hitters and too short for pitchers, hence a 28-man roster for April due to 2 extra pitchers being needed initially to build up arms. The last week of February would then create a major transaction frenzy, similar to the last week prior to the lockout. While that may be the optimistic scenario, negotiations stalling like this is usually a necessary part of the script. There will be a week of bickering and complaining now and then back to the table around Valentine´s day with public pressure rising to get things done... Later

Fman99 Feb 05 2022 06:12 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

This is a big stupid mess and I hate it.

Edgy MD Feb 05 2022 08:50 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Mets: "We'd like to thank Noah Syndergaard for his contributions to our franchise, and wish him luck with his new team, the Los Angeles Angels." Baseball: "They wish him luck? LOLMETS!!!" Mets: "We'd like to announce that we just signed Eduardo Escobar." Baseball: "Same old METS! They take a half-measure and they'll try to sell it as a 'big move'." Mets: "We'd like to announce that we just signed Starling Marte." Baseball: "Well, look who's serious! Too bad those idiots didn't replace Syndergaard." Mets: "We'd like to announce that we just signed Max Scherzer." Baseball: "OH, FUCK. Quick! Shut down all operations!" Fans: "Until when?" Baseball: "UNTIL WE SAY!!"

Frayed Knot Feb 07 2022 06:33 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Among other things that this stoppage has done is left MLB without a steroid policy. No testing is going on now for the first time in nearly two decades, and they'll have to either agree to reinstate the prior one or add negotiating a new one to their list of tasks.

kcmets Feb 08 2022 07:01 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Bleacher Report: MLB Stops Testing for Steroids After Drug Agreement with Players Expires

kcmets Feb 08 2022 07:06 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

New York Times: As Baseball Fights Over the Short Term, Long-Term Problems Loom

kcmets Feb 08 2022 07:08 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The Hill: Biden labor chief speaks to MLB, players' group amid lockout

kcmets Feb 09 2022 07:20 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

CBS Sports: Max Scherzer, Rich Hill, other MLB players call out owners, Rob Manfred as lockout drags on

ashie62 Feb 09 2022 07:25 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Well bake my ass! No baseball anytime soon. Rutgers and Nets hoops here.

metsmarathon Feb 11 2022 06:26 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Mets: "We'd like to thank Noah Syndergaard for his contributions to our franchise, and wish him luck with his new team, the Los Angeles Angels." Baseball: "They wish him luck? LOLMETS!!!" Mets: "We'd like to announce that we just signed Eduardo Escobar." Baseball: "Same old METS! They take a half-measure and they'll try to sell it as a 'big move'." Mets: "We'd like to announce that we just signed Starling Marte." Baseball: "Well, look who's serious! Too bad those idiots didn't replace Syndergaard." Mets: "We'd like to announce that we just signed Max Scherzer." Baseball: "OH, FUCK. Quick! Shut down all operations!" Fans: "Until when?" Baseball: "UNTIL WE SAY!!" Baseball: "OK, you can maybe someday perhaps have baseball again, but you have to have the DH."

kcmets Feb 11 2022 01:33 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Tampa Bay Times: Play ball? Sorry, not until they start playing nice

kcmets Feb 12 2022 04:06 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Bleacher Report: MLB Lawyer Says Minor League Players Shouldn't Be Paid During Spring Training

kcmets Feb 12 2022 04:16 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

MLB Trade Rumors: Poll: Will The Season Start On Time?

Willets Point Feb 12 2022 08:53 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Bleacher Report: MLB Lawyer Says Minor League Players Shouldn't Be Paid During Spring Training Well that's just evil. I'm guessing this isn't getting settled anytime soon if that's where the owner's are at.

Willets Point Feb 12 2022 08:54 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich offers an illuminating personal account of the 1994-95 strike negotiations.

Marshmallowmilkshake Feb 12 2022 12:20 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Willets Point wrote: Bleacher Report: MLB Lawyer Says Minor League Players Shouldn't Be Paid During Spring Training Well that's just evil. I'm guessing this isn't getting settled anytime soon if that's where the owner's are at. I don't think players have ever been paid for spring training. I'm not saying that's a good thing. The pay and accommodations for minor league players is appalling and needs to be improved dramatically. But I don't think this is anything new.

Edgy MD Feb 12 2022 01:31 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

It is indeed evil, but I'm not sure how this feeds into the collective bargaining agreement with the MLBPA. If the union is indeed taking up the cause of minor leaguers, that would be fantastic.

Lefty Specialist Feb 13 2022 05:27 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Billionaires can outwait millionaires. MLB isn't negotiating seriously, and they're waiting for player solidarity to crumble. They locked out the players supposedly to 'jumpstart' negotiations, then didn't submit a proposal of any kind for almost two months. The players, in the scheme of things, aren't asking for all that much. But the owners have decided that pretty much anything is too much. Owners will implement the things they like (extra playoffs and the DH) which arguably make the game worse, and ignore the things players want (competitive teams spending money on their product, not manipulating service time and not treating the luxury tax as a de facto salary cap) which arguably make the game better.

kcmets Feb 13 2022 07:20 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The Athletic: Drellich and Rosenthal: No reason to believe MLB season will start on time

kcmets Feb 13 2022 07:30 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

ESPN: MLB offers changes to tax penalties, minimum salary structure in latest proposal to locked-out players, sources say

MFS62 Feb 13 2022 08:41 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Here's a summary of the issues discussed yesterday (no pay wall): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVFsq9FQBlc Later

kcmets Feb 13 2022 09:07 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I get Bartolo's HR when I click on that... which was a surprise treat!!

The Hot Corner Feb 13 2022 12:00 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=kcmets post_id=85816 time=1644768464 user_id=53] I get Bartolo's HR when I click on that... which was a surprise treat!!

Yes sir. Definitely a treat.

Edgy MD Feb 16 2022 09:34 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I've grown very pessimistic the last two days. The league is waiting weeks and weeks between offers, has now made two entirely unacceptable and insulting submissions, and Manfred is acting like a jerk.

Fman99 Feb 17 2022 05:21 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: I've grown very pessimistic the last two days. The league is waiting weeks and weeks between offers, has now made two entirely unacceptable and insulting submissions, and Manfred is acting like a jerk. Yeah it's extra fucky right now. I'm sad panda

Frayed Knot Feb 17 2022 06:00 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I haven't seen anything even remotely specific about what's being offered or countered. Either I'm not searching very hard or these talks are being unusually tight-lipped.

Edgy MD Feb 17 2022 06:16 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I think it's more that the level of reporting is indifferent. I've certainly had to seek far and wide for information.

Gwreck Feb 17 2022 06:24 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The Athletic seems to have pretty good sources: Regarding the proposal made last Saturday by MLB, which reportedly was described by the Union as “underwhelming:” The league proposed a $5 million increase to the pre-arbitration bonus pool, upping it to $15 million. The union most recently proposed $100 million, leaving still a major gap. MLB raised the luxury-tax thresholds by $2 million in the final three years of five over the deal. They would now progress as $214 million, $214 million, $216 million, $218 million and $222 million. Previously, they were: $214 million, $214 million, $214 million, $216 million and $220 million. MLB maintained a tax rate of 50 percent for teams that exceed the first CBT tier but took away a penalty of a third-round draft pick for doing so. Exceeding the second and third tier remained the same as MLB's last proposal: 75 and 100 percent, respectively, for the second and third tiers; and the loss of a second-round and first-round pick, respectively. The union considers those tax rates onerous. MLB also made changes to its proposal for service-time manipulation.

Frayed Knot Feb 17 2022 06:40 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Not sure that there's anything in all that that, on the surface, qualifies as "insulting".

metsmarathon Feb 17 2022 08:26 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

i think the biggest complaint is that all the movement by the owners is achingly incremental. $5M to close a $100M gap on the bonus pool, for instance. there's some progress and some movement, sure, but when manfred comes out and says a significant offer is on the table and they're hoping to walk away with an agreement, you expect them to maybe move closer to the middle and instead have barely moved off the starting line. but it's fine. they're destroying the sport at the time they can least afford to. it's all good. right...?

Gwreck Feb 17 2022 08:32 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Who was insulted? Previously, the players had proposed changes to free agency and arbitration eligibility; the owners had refused to negotiate on those points. My understand is the proposed compromise “pre-arbitration bonus pool” was born as a result. Not discussed above (in that article at least, but there are plenty of others) are: -minimum salary -anti-tanking proposals. I recall reading that the owners were proposing a 3-team draft lottery and the players an 8-team draft lottery. -how CBT/Luxury tax funds are actually distributed and spent -service time manipulation. From a February 1 Athletics article: Regarding service-time manipulation, the union has proposed a system where a player who might not normally get a year of service time would be credited with one year if they reach certain thresholds and levels of performance. The union plan would award a full year of service to rookies who finish in the top five in their league for Rookie of the Year, top three for reliever of the year and/or make first- or second-team All-MLB. Before Tuesday's adjustments, non-outfielders and non-pitchers who place top 10 at their positions in their respective leagues according to an average of bWAR and fWAR also would qualify, as would starting pitchers, relief pitchers and outfielders who place top 30. Now, it's top 7 and top 20, respectively.

Edgy MD Feb 17 2022 11:39 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=Gwreck post_id=85975 time=1645111979 user_id=56] Who was insulted?

That was my characterization.

Gwreck Feb 17 2022 11:42 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Missed that. Agree, though: the lockout plus lowball offers by the owners is deeply insulting.

kcmets Feb 17 2022 12:53 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

SNY: Latest on MLB lockout: Meeting between league and players lasts 15 minutes

LWFS Feb 17 2022 01:22 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Worth noting-- as they fail to point out in the link-- that MLB reps walked out after 15 minutes.

kcmets Feb 18 2022 09:45 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Sporting News: Delayed regular season, apathy could send MLB to a very bad place

Edgy MD Feb 18 2022 09:58 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

It seems like apathy is their flagship product at this point.

duan Feb 18 2022 10:43 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

the owners are pathetic. They're a cosy cartel who make money out of an anti-trust exemption, yet they're still so greedy that they fuck this up to be sure they don't go near allowing people to earn what they should earn for their value. If the structure of ownership/industry like this was replicated in Europe it'd have been broken up by a legal challenge long long long ago. 30 owners controlling players ability to move and earn? bonkers.

kcmets Feb 18 2022 11:11 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=duan post_id=86008 time=1645206216 user_id=99]If the structure of ownership/industry like this was replicated in Europe it'd have been broken up by a legal challenge long long long ago.

Maybe even long long long longer ago! *rolleyes*

Frayed Knot Feb 18 2022 04:33 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Feb 21 2022 07:58 AM

=duan post_id=86008 time=1645206216 user_id=99] the owners are pathetic. They're a cosy cartel who make money out of an anti-trust exemption, yet they're still so greedy that they fuck this up to be sure they don't go near allowing people to earn what they should earn for their value. If the structure of ownership/industry like this was replicated in Europe it'd have been broken up by a legal challenge long long long ago. 30 owners controlling players ability to move and earn? bonkers.

The sad part is that the bb owners are princes compared to those in the NFL. In fact they probably get mocked by gridiron owners at one-percenter parties about how lame they are.

'You guys are so pathetic you can't even get your union to roll over like we do or crumble at the thought or losing a single paycheck. And somehow you fail to get yours to willingly give

up free-agency or accept longer seasons without a commensurate increase in pay. Man, we do that every couple of years like clockwork.

Shyeeeet, you guys can't even institute a frickin' salary cap. Not only do we have one ... but we just made ours go DOWN!!!

Edgy MD Feb 18 2022 04:48 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

That's the sad truth. MLB has a stupid anti-trust exemption, but in many ways, the other top-level US-based leagues operate with even more impunity.

kcmets Feb 18 2022 05:00 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Europeans wouldn't stand for any of it! Any, I tell you.

kcmets Feb 20 2022 08:39 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Cincinnati.com: Daugherty: MLB disrespecting fans with plodding approach to labor talks

kcmets Feb 20 2022 08:41 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The Boston Globe: Why is service time manipulation so important to players in MLB labor talks? Consider the case of Nick Pivetta.

ashie62 Feb 20 2022 09:19 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Simple thing I don't know, Since the owners locked out the players do the players get paid anything? I assume no, but the players didn't start this.

kcmets Feb 20 2022 11:16 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

This came up earlier in this thread or maybe in another. No players ever got paid to attend spring training so nothing different in 2022 I guess was the gist.

Willets Point Feb 20 2022 11:43 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The Boston Globe: Why is service time manipulation so important to players in MLB labor talks? Consider the case of Nick Pivetta. Interesting. This reminds me of collusion in the 1980s in that the owners are deliberately not making their teams better in order to avoid paying players.

bmfc1 Feb 20 2022 12:24 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

This pissed me off: [BLOCKQUOTE]Remember when Cohen faced resistance in his bid to purchase the Mets, in part because other owners were worried that he would spend wildly? Four owners -- Jerry Reinsdorf of the Chicago White Sox, Arte Moreno of the Los Angeles Angels, Bob Castellini of the Cincinnati Reds, and Ken Kendrick of the Arizona Diamondbacks -- voted against Cohen. Steinbrenner voted "yes," and Yankees president Randy Levine was an ally to Cohen during the process. Well, now Cohen has begun to spend like Mets fans hoped and budget-conscious owners feared. It seems awfully coincidental that his competitors have devised a proposal that could prevent him from ever doing it again. Even Cohen would have to think long and hard about losing high draft picks. https://sny.tv/articles/mlb-proposal-steve-cohen-hal-steinbrenner[/BLOCKQUOTE] We finally have an owner who treats NY as a big market and owners in small towns like Chicago and Los Angeles want to tell him what to do. I have no doubt that these are M*G* lovers who want a free market but here (like the NFL owners) they are socialists. They want to reap the shared revenue from national TV contracts (which are paid in part because of NYY-BOS matchups) and apparel sales but don't want to spend that money. F them.

Edgy MD Feb 20 2022 01:02 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Player contracts only exist under an agreed-upon CBA. Without a CBA, the contracts aren't active. Deferred payments and bonuses have been received during the last two months and they will continue to be, but base salaries only happen during the season, and under a current CBA, so those will not happen should this proceed.

duan Feb 21 2022 04:20 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

If the structure of ownership/industry like this was replicated in Europe it'd have been broken up by a legal challenge long long long ago. Maybe even long long long longer ago! *rolleyes* The point I am making here is not that 'Europe' is inherently better or worse, but that at least - in this case - you would not find that the interests of the the 'league' is put ahead of the players that are contracted. The football industry is as horrendous as MLB or the NFL in many ways, with regards to the commoditisation of players. However, the big difference was when the style of 'contract system' that allowed clubs to have excessive control over players was challenged in the courts it fell apart. The biggest single moment was the case taken by a relatively mid range journeyman player Jean Marc Bosman. He was not a star, but a player at one of the better clubs in Belgium who wanted to leave to go another club in France. He was on about $3,000 a month [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosman_ruling It wasn't all good, but it has definitely meant that players incomes have expanded exponentially - even at the lower levels of the game.

kcmets Feb 21 2022 07:00 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

CBSSports: How MLB's luxury tax became a lockout sticking point and why owners' proposal would lead to drastic changes

kcmets Feb 21 2022 07:15 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

St Louis Post-Dispatch: With opening day in jeopardy, a decisive week arrives for MLB, players' union

Frayed Knot Feb 21 2022 07:22 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The current set-ups in the various professional leagues are allowed to survive because they all got there through collectively bargained agreements with their unions. The minimum age restrictions in the NBA (one year post-high school) and NFL (three) have been deemed legal because they have the players union stamp of approval as are the various rules governing requirements or restrictions for free-agency, plus minimum wages and other such stuff. The infamous anti-trust exemptions allow the leagues to control such things as franchise additions or movement, something which is certainly an issue, but also which long ago ceased to have control over player salaries. The days when sports could operate with unilaterally imposed lifetime servitude rules are long gone so the removal of any remaining exemptions isn't going to be some sort of magic bullet that some seem to believe.

Willets Point Feb 21 2022 07:25 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I read that too quickly and at first thought it said the minimum age for the NFL was three.

kcmets Feb 21 2022 07:30 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

NY Post: MLB, union are about to tell us how important playing full season really is

Johnny Lunchbucket Feb 21 2022 07:56 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I might be too optimistic here bit predicting an agreement is signed by late Friday afternoon, and camps reopening Monday.

Frayed Knot Feb 21 2022 08:02 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Willets Point wrote: I read that too quickly and at first thought it said the minimum age for the NFL was three. The draft-niks start tracking the players at age three. But considering the amount of 'red-shirting' that goes on at the college level, a lot of the players are closer to twenty-three by the time they're finally draft eligible.

kcmets Feb 21 2022 08:31 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: I might be too optimistic here bit predicting an agreement is signed by late Friday afternoon, and camps reopening Monday. I'm pro-optimism. Post something optimistic in the WW lll thread NOW!!!

Edgy MD Feb 21 2022 08:35 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Controlling player salaries through their minor league careers and through the first five-six years of their major league careers is, for most players, controlling them into perpetuity. And with the actions to remove the middle class at the major league level, the league has found a way to collectively box out a large share of players who survive into six years of service time.

Fman99 Feb 21 2022 09:00 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: I might be too optimistic here bit predicting an agreement is signed by late Friday afternoon, and camps reopening Monday. I'm going to choose to buy into your optimistic world view, as opposed to the shitdickery we've been exposed to thus far.

Frayed Knot Feb 21 2022 03:50 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: I might be too optimistic here bit predicting an agreement is signed by late Friday afternoon, and camps reopening Monday. I'm tempted to jump on this train simply because I can't believe the owners really think that, after decades of rejecting salary caps, the players are suddenly going to swallow this attempt at a cap in all but name. They can't possibly believe this is really going to work, and when exactly was the last time the players broke ranks and buckled on one of their core beliefs?

Edgy MD Feb 21 2022 09:30 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

One kind of weird thing is that MLB is proposing to cap the number of minor leaguers per system. This puts the MLBPA in the odd position of negotiating on behalf of non-member minor leaguers while trying to secure the best deal for their members. While the union has historically seen the interest of minor leaguers as unaligned with or competitive with those of major league members, many in the union certainly realize they might have future opportunities as veterans in AAA curtailed under such a cap. If, somehow, this could lead to minor leaguers organizing or the MLBPA beginning to work for their minor league counterparts, it could be a long summer, but also one of the more productive work stoppages in living memory.

kcmets Feb 22 2022 07:00 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

MLBTradeRumors: MLB Offers $5MM Increase In Pre-Arbitration Bonus Pool In Latest CBA Proposal; League No Longer Pursuing Authority To Shrink Minor League Rosters

ashie62 Feb 22 2022 12:29 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Unlimited options with9n a season?

duan Feb 23 2022 09:21 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=ashie62 post_id=86115 time=1645558189 user_id=90] Unlimited options with9n a season?

That already existed, but a player only had so many option years.



It's a bit way for orgs to exploit service time and game the 40 man roster to the maximum benefit. If you've relievers or 5th and 6th starters with options just keep yo-yo'ing them up and down. I'm not enough of a transaction watcher to know if this is true, but certainly the impression created is that the dodgers and rays do this a lot.

Edgy MD Feb 23 2022 11:17 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The Mets do it a lot. The notion is that, now that anything over five innings from a starting pitcher is a bonus, bigger bullpens are needed, and yo-yoing creates more available fresh arms. I mostly reject that notion as (1) a pitcher who gets sent down for a few days and comes back has the appearance of freshness, because you haven't seen him in a game, but (a) that doesn't mean he hasn't been used in AAA in the interim, and (b) he's got the additional wear and tear from the round trip; and (b) pitchers called to the big leagues need to make adjustments in order to get outs consistently, and they never get to do that if they get sent down after one or two outings. So, yeah, I agree that there is some degree of service-time manipulation in the yo-yo game.

MFS62 Feb 23 2022 11:57 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=duan post_id=86150 time=1645633289 user_id=99] =ashie62 post_id=86115 time=1645558189 user_id=90] Unlimited options with9n a season?

That already existed, but a player only had so many option years.


Depends on how far back you go.

When I first started caring about that stuff, a player had three option years, and you could only option/ recall a player once per year. That's when you heard of September call-ups of rookies.

Later it was changed to three option years, and you could option/ recall a player multiple times a year. But it was initially done in case of injury, or if you thought a minor leaguer was ready for the majors.

Recently, for maternity leave, double header extra and other types of call-ups, it has been, IMO, a mishmash with players up and down for one or two days during those three years. And, as Edgy said, it can be harmful to the development or evaluation of a player.



Later

duan Feb 23 2022 12:03 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: The Mets do it a lot. The notion is that, now that anything over five innings from a starting pitcher is a bonus, bigger bullpens are needed, and yo-yoing creates more available fresh arms. I mostly reject that notion as (1) a pitcher who gets sent down for a few days and comes back has the appearance of freshness, because you haven't seen him in a game, but (a) that doesn't mean he hasn't been used in AAA in the interim, and (b) he's got the additional wear and tear from the round trip; and (b) pitchers called to the big leagues need to make adjustments in order to get outs consistently, and they never get to do that if they get sent down after one or two outings. So, yeah, I agree that there is some degree of service-time manipulation in the yo-yo game. But the knock would be the Mets are doing it with guys who aren't good enough to be on the 25 man in the first place not turning the 25 man into a de facto 28/29 man ….

Frayed Knot Feb 24 2022 03:58 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

So MLB is saying that if an agreement is not reached by Monday 2/28 games will start being cancelled, they will not be made up, and players are not going to be paid for any games not played. The players have responded by saying they will not agree to the owners' pet project, expanded playoffs, unless they play a full 162. Being a fan of neither a shortened season nor of expanded playoffs, I find this a bit of a dilemma.

kcmets Feb 24 2022 07:03 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

MLBTradeRumors: MLB Again States That Regular Season Games Would Be Canceled If No CBA Is In Place By February 28

Edgy MD Feb 24 2022 08:20 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Is the owners' endgame really about expanded playoffs? That would be awful silly. You're allowing teams to tank away a season without consequence, and instead of trying to fix that, you're trying to create a second, more profitable season after the season is done?

Gwreck Feb 24 2022 08:56 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The owners (a) locked out the players; (b) had the temerity to call it a “defensive” lockout; (c) claimed that the lockout would “jumpstart negotiations; and (d) then sat on their hands for 43 days before making an offer that wasn't even in the realm of what the players would reasonably consider. To be now issuing deadlines is disingenuity of the highest order.

kcmets Feb 25 2022 05:45 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

ABCNews: Key proposals in Major League Baseball labor negotiations

kcmets Feb 27 2022 06:20 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Yahoo!Sports: MLB lockout negotiations turn hostile as owners reject players' comprehensive proposal

bmfc1 Feb 27 2022 06:51 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Quoting Ken Rosenthal in today's "The Athletic": "The small- and mid-market clubs seemingly are dictating the league's hard-line positions...." NYM, NYY, LAD, and, BOS are a majority of the teams that drive the ratings which enable the owners to get higher revenue from national TV deals and this revenue is split equally, even with AZ, PIT and BAL, and yet a majority of the owners want to stifle the owners of the very teams that bring it more revenue. This makes no sense, especially when the AZ, PIT, and BAL owners are under no obligation to spend that money for a better team. The mid- and small-owners want to bring the big markets down to their level.

ashie62 Feb 27 2022 09:21 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Players are deeply offended by saturday's talks to the point of maybe skipping todays talks scheduled to begin at 1pm.

Frayed Knot Feb 27 2022 10:30 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

So ... other than what is looking like a delayed season, and a shortened season, and one with a permanent DuH rule, and one which, when and if it concludes, it will do so with a choice of either too many playoff teams or far too many playoff teams, ... how's the off-season going so far? But at least they fixed their time-of-game/pace-of-play issues ... oh wait!

Gwreck Feb 27 2022 11:57 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Ken Rosenthal: [BLOCKQUOTE] If commissioner Rob Manfred truly believes missing games will be a “disastrous outcome for the industry,” he sure does not appear to have convinced his bosses, the 30 major-league owners. The players' union made moves on Saturday, moves it considered significant toward reaching a new collective-bargaining agreement. Major League Baseball responded by raising a collective middle finger.[/BLOCKQUOTE]

Benjamin Grimm Feb 27 2022 01:51 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'm thinking that we'll be lucky if the season starts by June 1.

Frayed Knot Feb 27 2022 02:56 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'm thinking that we'll be lucky if the season starts by June 1. By which point I'll be boycotting.

batmagadanleadoff Feb 27 2022 03:15 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'm thinking that we'll be lucky if the season starts by June 1. So how is deGrom supposed to make the Hall of Fame? At this rate, he won't, even if he continues to pitch like a Hall of Famer. Late debut. 60% of a season lost to Covid. Half of another season lost to injury. Even when he's tip-top healthy, it's a minor miracle whenever he pitches into the 7th inning of a game. And now this.

Edgy MD Feb 27 2022 03:55 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

He's lost more than half a season to injury. For a large part, the late debut is due to injury. I have no idea how Jacob deGrom is going to be able to fully realize the legacy he might have largely built by now, and I think about it a lot. I get irrationally angry almost every time the hook comes for the starter. I consider that shit to also be anti-competitive, although not as intentionally so.

The Hot Corner Feb 27 2022 04:56 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

A long delay to the start of the season will significantly hurt the game in my view. The owners, and to a lesser degree the players, seem determined to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Baseball was a major part of my life as a kid and remained so into my early twenties. Marriage, family, and career gradually loosened baseball's hold on my life. With each successive labor stoppage, I found my fandom and interest waned a little more. I find myself rapidly losing interest and mentally preparing myself to move on with my life with MLB having a further diminished hold upon my interest.

Frayed Knot Feb 28 2022 07:51 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

So I guess the general consensus is that these assholes are going to fuck this up tonight, eh? Small and mid-market owners seem to be driving the agenda and have no problems missing games in an attempt to get their way.

Frayed Knot Mar 01 2022 04:13 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

'Progress made' in talks that went into the wee hours but issues still remain. Talks to resume at 11AM today with a new deadline of 5PM

Fman99 Mar 01 2022 05:27 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I predict they get it done today or tomorrow. They could potentially extend that deadline one more day if they feel they're close. Serves em both right for dicking around all of December/January without even attempting negotiations.

Johnny Lunchbucket Mar 01 2022 05:44 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Deal gets done today. AND YOU CAN TAKE THAT TO THE BANK https://arc-anglerfish-tgam-prod-tgam.s3.amazonaws.com/public/YXEF44WUMZCALECCXXYDOEEDFU.jpg>

bmfc1 Mar 01 2022 06:13 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

"Serves em both right for dicking around all of December/January without even attempting negotiations." From my perspective, MLB locked out the players and then dicked around for nine weeks so they have been dickier.

bmfc1 Mar 01 2022 06:18 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement Edited 3 time(s), most recently on Mar 01 2022 08:46 AM

It appears that the two sides are closer to an agreement. The Players have been insistent on keeping the 162-game schedule (so they get their full salaries) but we should be in the first week of ST games already and the season is scheduled to start on March 31. I guess they could start camp ASAP (think of the player movement), move Opening Day back two weeks, and extend the season for a week while eliminating an off-day or two plus play some doubleheaders (which the Owners hate so they'll be the crappy day/night ones). They agreed to expand the playoffs to 12 teams, and not 14 (out of 30!) as the Owners wanted. So? The two division winners with the best records get a first-round bye, the 3d plays 6 and 4 plays 5? There was also talk of giving the teams with the better records home field in every first-round game. Another 12-team format: [BLOCKQUOTE]Expand to three wild card teams in each league instead of four and have them play their own round that does not involve the division winners. For example, the bottom two wild cards play a one-game playoff, with the loser automatically eliminated. The winner of the first wild card game advances to play the top wild card team, with the winner of that game advancing to the Division Series and the loser going home If MLB wants to give a better reward to the wild card teams, the second wild card "round" can be three games long instead of one. And all the games can be at the home park of the top wild card team in order to play them on three straight days and minimize travel Expand the division series to seven games from five, which would remove part of the crapshoot nature of the current five-game division series -- and would make up for some of the lost revenue from going to 12 teams instead of 14 Since the 14-team proposal had the top division winner in each league sitting around while the three-game Wild Card round played out, the fact that they'd also sit around for days under this proposal shouldn't be an issue. https://sny.tv/articles/mlb-playoffs-expanding-12-teams-2022?fbclid=IwAR0HtpP0xpzEhAhEA0O5gXnJkaPc0YMN-9XfpR-52-Q2rgBaBl5HsIbzuWo [/BLOCKQUOTE]

kcmets Mar 01 2022 06:19 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

"I'm telling you, Mean Gene, the owners have been a bunch of cork smokin' pencil neck geeks!"

Fman99 Mar 01 2022 08:12 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

"Serves em both right for dicking around all of December/January without even attempting negotiations." From my perspective, MLB locked out the players and then dicked around for nine weeks so they have been dickier. Yeah but it's not like the players didn't know they were locked out. Were they pressing to get the owners to the table and find out how to get them to unlock the doors? I think no

bmfc1 Mar 01 2022 08:44 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

"Serves em both right for dicking around all of December/January without even attempting negotiations." From my perspective, MLB locked out the players and then dicked around for nine weeks so they have been dickier. Yeah but it's not like the players didn't know they were locked out. Were they pressing to get the owners to the table and find out how to get them to unlock the doors? I think no Fair point. I haven't read anything about that.

Edgy MD Mar 01 2022 08:58 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'm all about expanding the playoffs to 30 teams and calling it "the season."

bmfc1 Mar 01 2022 09:08 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

You know and I know that the more teams that make the playoffs the more you dilute the value of the regular season. With 14 or even 12 teams in, you run the risk of this, as an example: ATL has a 3 game lead on the Mets with two weeks to go but the NL East winner is only the 3d best record so there is no possibility of a first-round bye. The Mets are 8 up on the 7th best record so they are definitely going to make the playoffs. Do the Mets sit/minimize Jake and Scherzer for these two weeks to save them for the playoffs? That's an example of what will happen with expanded playoffs.

Fman99 Mar 01 2022 09:38 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I was against the bump from 8 to 10, but that ended up being a good thing (despite 2016) as I like the pressure of the one game play-in wild card. But I think 10 to 12 is stupid. I mean, I also think the DH is stupid, though, so stupid is as 2022 does I guess.

Willets Point Mar 01 2022 10:04 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

You want expanded playoffs? Fine. 7 teams qualify from each league - 3 division champions and 4 wild cards. The division champs are seeded 1-3, and the wild cards are seeded 4-7 based on regular season records. Round 1: Best of 3 series hosted by higher seed: 4 v 7 and 5 v 6 Round 2: Best of 3 series hosted by higher seed: 2 v the lower remaining seed and 3 v the higher remaining seed Winner of Round 2 advances to a best of 7 LCS against the #1 seed who also get home field advantage. More teams get a chance at the postseason as MLB desires, but the importance of the regular season is maintained by the benefits of home field advantage and byes given to the the teams with the best records. Also, the maximum number of games a team can play to advance to the LCS is the same as it is now - 6. And all of the games of Round 1 and 2 can be completed in about 7 days, so it won't stretch out the postseason any further.

Gwreck Mar 01 2022 02:23 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Prior reporting of “progress” appears to be inaccurate. https://twitter.com/jeffpassan/status/1498769687307563019?s=10 More: https://twitter.com/byjameswagner/status/1498762347820851209?s=21 The union lowered its ask today on pre-arb bonus pool from $115M to $85M (with a $5M increase/year). MLB had proposed last night $25M w/ no annual increase. Among other areas of disagreement: proposed luxury tax rates: — MLB: $220M/220/220/224/230 — Union: $238M/244/250/256/263

bmfc1 Mar 01 2022 02:31 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

So much for that. F Manfred, F Reinsdorf.

metsmarathon Mar 01 2022 02:34 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

ugh. just fucking get it done you hosers. or, sweet jesus, allow spring training to start while you hammer out the last few details. no reason to shut shit down.

Frayed Knot Mar 01 2022 03:51 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

First two series of reg season canceled. Fuck both sides in the ear.

Marshmallowmilkshake Mar 01 2022 04:34 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Unacceptable. Epic failure.

Lefty Specialist Mar 01 2022 04:34 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'd say split the difference and get on with it, but the owners have been much less willing to budge on the numbers than the players have. And they seem to be in no rush to start the season. So if there's a dick award it goes to the owners.

Edgy MD Mar 01 2022 04:40 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'm doubly pissed. I took it to the bank.

bmfc1 Mar 01 2022 05:39 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The minor leagues will go on as scheduled but not with any player on the 40-man roster. This means that some of the Mets top prospects won't be able to play: [TWEET]https://twitter.com/Jacob_Resnick/status/1498812280523350017[/TWEET]

Johnny Lunchbucket Mar 01 2022 06:43 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

What a tragedy 😢. The bank failed us. Mafred can suck a refrigerator of cool hard dicks

Fman99 Mar 01 2022 07:53 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Yah I'm super bummed to be wrong about this.

Frayed Knot Mar 01 2022 08:01 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Several sources are saying that the owners are prepared to lose the first month of the season. If they follow through on that then I'm prepared to skip the next five.

Edgy MD Mar 01 2022 08:02 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

It looks like it'll be the third straight year that Mets Opening Day has eaten dirt.

metsmarathon Mar 01 2022 09:29 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

they better damned well already have someone lined up to hit 90 homeruns to save the fucking sport like last time.

seawolf17 Mar 02 2022 07:56 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I've never openly hated (the business of) baseball the way I do right now. I don't even know how to express my displeasure outside of a few angry tweets, either, because I don't subscribe to any of their services (outside of cable, I guess), and I'm not a corporate partner or season ticket holder, so they literally DGAF what I think. So I guess I put my baseball energy into the Red Wings and support the hell out of the AAA team. Got my opening day tickets.

Lefty Specialist Mar 02 2022 07:58 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Pretty obvious that the owners are looking for total capitulation on the part of the players. They may get it, at the cost of a significant amount of the season, and a significant amount of the fan base. All they care about is the postseason money and with expanded playoffs that'll be there regardless of how much of the regular season they miss. Just a reminder that this is a lockout, not a strike. Or if you prefer, a strike by the owners.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 02 2022 08:09 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

If there's no season, there will be a quite limited Tabloid Cover Derby, and if that happens, this cover may be a strong contender: http://ultimatemets.com/covers/2022/20220302_NYP_02.jpg>

Edgy MD Mar 02 2022 08:13 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'd be deeply disappointed by a capitulation by the players. They have exclusive possession of most of the best talent in the world. What do the owners have? Last I checked, there's no shortage of rich folks who can take out a lease on a ballpark and order some uniforms.

Marshmallowmilkshake Mar 02 2022 08:25 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Lefty Specialist wrote: . All they care about is the postseason money and with expanded playoffs that'll be there regardless of how much of the regular season they miss. I think they care a lot about the CBT and suppressing salaries. I think this is more of a civil war among the owners as opposed to a war with the players. If what I'm reading is correct, the smaller and middle market teams what to suppress the bigger ones from spending more, or at least getting more in revenue sharing for them to pocket. They have enough of a block to control things. There is no reason why Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Miami and some of the others can't spend. They just don't want to. The Cohens and others should insist of a Noncompetitive Tax for any team that is not turning its revenue sharing into creating a competitive team. A de facto cap should have a de facto floor.

bmfc1 Mar 02 2022 08:26 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: I'd be deeply disappointed by a capitulation by the players. They have exclusive possession of most of the best talent in the world. What do the owners have? Last I checked, there's no shortage of rich folks who can take out a lease on a ballpark and order some uniforms. I agree with you but the problem with the players' taking a tough stance is that they have a finite amount of time to use that talent. The rich folks will be some degree of rich for much longer.

Edgy MD Mar 02 2022 08:47 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

That's true. If they want to take the industry by the throat, they had better get to it.

metsmarathon Mar 02 2022 09:26 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

playoff money won't be shit if the fans don't give one.

duan Mar 02 2022 09:40 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Lefty Specialist wrote: . All they care about is the postseason money and with expanded playoffs that'll be there regardless of how much of the regular season they miss. I think they care a lot about the CBT and suppressing salaries. this 100%.

ashie62 Mar 02 2022 11:42 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

If the baseball industry knew how to "read the room" with all that has and is going on around us we would likely have baseball on time.

kcmets Mar 03 2022 05:30 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

ESPN: 'They need to stop treating us like we're idiots': How MLB can salvage this season

Frayed Knot Mar 03 2022 06:09 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

ESPN: 'They need to stop treating us like we're idiots': How MLB can salvage this season I'll read this when I get some time. But, while I've got nothing against Passan or Kurkjian who are good baseball journos, hearing from ESPN about how they [MLB] 'need to stop treating us like we're idiots' takes on more than a whiff of irony when you consider how much ESPN in general despises baseball (no longer making even the slightest effort to try and disguise it anymore) and how ESPN is the one most responsible for treating hardball fans as idiots or, at best, as either out of touch nerds living in their mother's basements or octogenarians living in nursing homes. So forgive me if my knee jerk response when I see something from the four letter network critical of baseball is: Fuck You.

G-Fafif Mar 03 2022 06:17 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

From Slate: The Lords of Baseball Think You're Stupid The lockout is Manfred and the owners' concoction. It is right there in the word: The league locked out its players when the last Basic Agreement expired. MLB did not have to do that, players were not poised to walk out on strike, and the 2022 season could've gone ahead while the parties worked on a new one. The “defensive lockout” wasn't one. But Manfred, whether he believed himself or not, was playing with fire. He said it would be “disastrous” if the league needed to cancel games, which it had never done in a lockout. And when it happened, on Tuesday, he told reporters that fans were “at the very top of our consideration list.” In yet another open letter, Manfred reiterated that MLB would not lift the lockout, pointing out that players went on strike in a CBA-less 1994 season. “We cannot risk such an outcome again for our fans and our sport,” he wrote. See? He's doing this for you. Manfred is an arsonist who wants you to think he is a firefighter. Even if you take him at his word that the lockout was necessary (you should not), his actions since imposing it have been farcical. Manfred's side did not issue a collective bargaining proposal to the MLB Players Association for 43 whole days after the Commissioner of Baseball said in his first letter that the lockout was meant to “jumpstart” things. The stalling was plain to see as it was happening. Players don't get paid in the offseason. They get paid during the season, and Manfred wanted them up against a wall. So the league waited, then moved inch by inch (and sometimes not at all) on the issues the union cared most about. Many of them centered around pay for young players, who get less than their peers in other sports while representing a higher share of the rosters. Manfred slapped an artificial deadline on the process he engineered, saying the sides needed a deal by Monday to preserve the full regular season. He moved it back to Tuesday, then pulled the trigger on cancellations when the union didn't close the gap. Manfred then told the press that MLB hadn't “used the phrase ‘last, best, and final offer' with the union.” That is a legal term. It is management's right to make a last offer for the players to take or leave. But the MLBPA's lead negotiator was clear with reporters that MLB had used exactly those words. Someone is lying or at least severely stretching the truth. Maybe it's the guy who invented both this entire situation and every conceivable justification for it. Either way, Manfred has his leverage, as a delayed season could cost players a lot of money. The thing he claimed to be committed to avoiding—using the threat of it as the foundation for his lockout—is happening. None of this has been a cunning display of Machiavellian proportions on either his or his bosses' part. They have bumbled in front of both the players and the media. Colorado Rockies owner Dick Monfort, who chairs the owners' labor committee, reportedly whined to the union across the table about the difficult costs of owning a team. (He then disappeared from negotiations for a bit.) Manfred got in front of microphones and said that buying and owning a team was less profitable than investing in the stock market. Manfred provided no evidence and didn't engage with follow-up questions. But it's a preposterous claim on the valuations, even before considering the regular cash flows ownership can generate. Manfred could only say it because he thought his target audience, the baseball-loving public, would buy it. Such obfuscation is part of the plan. Manfred and the owners did not show up to this self-created crisis without a strategy. The commissioner has spent almost his whole professional life as a management-side labor lawyer, helping companies fight unions. He has been in bureaucratic combat with the MLBPA since the 1980s, first as outside counsel and then as one of the league's top lawyers. That experience is why the owners picked him to succeed Bud Selig in 2014. His career has built toward this moment of hardball with baseball's best players. What does Manfred really like about his job, aside from the good pay? https://slate.com/culture/2022/03/mlb-lockout-rob-manfred-commissioner-baseball-owners-cynical.html

kcmets Mar 03 2022 06:43 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Frayed Knot wrote: So forgive me if my knee jerk response when I see something from the four letter network critical of baseball is: Fuck You. Just adding something to the pot. There's slim pickin' out there, and everyone has their hands out for a fee to read all about it these days. Disney be damned. They don't get something done today or by late tomorrow afternoon, my fuck you will be loud and clear to all of them. I lost patience two weeks ago.

Frayed Knot Mar 03 2022 07:20 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=kcmets post_id=86430 time=1646315018 user_id=53] Just adding something to the pot. There's slim pickin' out there, and everyone has their hands out for a fee to read all about it these days.

Nothing wrong with posting the link and, like I said, I'll get around to reading it because Passan is a good reporter.

It's not his fault that he works for a company that despises the sport he covers and hope it dies a quick death so

they can wash their hands of it forever and then fire his ass.

whippoorwill Mar 03 2022 01:06 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Frayed Knot wrote: So forgive me if my knee jerk response when I see something from the four letter network critical of baseball is: Fuck You. Just adding something to the pot. There's slim pickin' out there, and everyone has their hands out for a fee to read all about it these days. Disney be damned. Amen to that

Frayed Knot Mar 03 2022 03:07 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'm thinking that we'll be lucky if the season starts by June 1. So how is deGrom supposed to make the Hall of Fame? Also at stake, and in a more direct way: Pete Alonso's service time. The Mets notably opted not to delay Pete's debut in his rookie year. But if this lockout lasts longer than 15 days, and if the players do not get service time credit for those missed games, then it will have the net effect of delaying his FA eligibility for a full year. Shohei Ohtani and StL's Jack Flaherty are the other players currently in that same boat. Obviously the MLBPA will fight this but so will the other side. Just one more topic on which to disagree.

Edgy MD Mar 03 2022 03:22 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I nominate the teams' major sponsors to step forward. The league, and its teams are in non-compliance with their obligations to sponsors as well as their obligations to their municipally owned stadium leases and, to a large part, probably their training facilities as well. Let the big-name sponsors — who are frequently banks — field the teams, taking over the leases, honoring the contracts under the terms of the expired CBA, using off-brand names and logos. It would take 10 lawyers less than 24 hours to establish an entity called Big League Baseball or the like, and the pointlessness of the owners will be laid bare. Not bloody likely, but if it happens, I hope they throw a few dollars my way.

whippoorwill Mar 03 2022 05:12 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'm way beyond caring about any major league player in existence, but shutting out youngsters on the 40 man is sad

Frayed Knot Mar 03 2022 06:29 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The two sides met for a few minutes today in what was described as a "two on two" session. Not sure who the two or the two were. Needless to say there was no news to come out of it. In the meantime, it's amazing to read the football news in the papers over the last few days, most specifically about the NYG but the same topics apply to all teams. That news is all about veterans either being cut [read: having their existing contracts canceled] - or being threatened with being cut if they don't "renegotiate" those existing contracts [read: take less money] - or about how teams need to consider whether to sign their QB to a second contract [once the first one with the mandated rookie minimums runs out] and if by doing so how it would affect how much [read: how little] they'd then have to sign other players because how much they give one player by definition reduces what they can then pay to the collective others. And the unmentioned, but often inferred, part of these stories is how much those who cover and follow the sport think these rules are what make the game great.

bmfc1 Mar 04 2022 04:42 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/martinonyc/status/1499497290972684291[/TWEET] [BLOCKQUOTE]Four Major League Baseball owners — Bob Castellini of the Reds, Chris Ilitch of the Tigers, Ken Kendrick of the Diamondbacks and Arte Moreno of the Angels — objected to raising the competitive balance tax to the levels the league ultimately proposed most recently, three people briefed on an owner-wide call held this week told The Athletic. MLB moved forward with the proposal anyway, moving its offer on the first threshold to $220 million — up $10 million from where it was in 2021, and $6 million from its previous offer, but still far below the players' ask of $238 million. ... In bargaining, owners have used the Mets, and their relatively new owner Steve Cohen, and the Dodgers as examples of teams they're worried about outspending the competition, sources said. https://theathletic.com/3162810/2022/03/04/sources-angels-diamondbacks-reds-and-tigers-owners-opposed-mlb-luxury-tax-increase/[/BLOCKQUOTE] Moreno doesn't like his neighboring LAD spending so much, even though he pays Trout and Rendon a lot of money. He also spent more for Syndergaard than Cohen did. The Tigers outbid the Mets for Javy Baez. Yet, this is largely about Cohen.

Frayed Knot Mar 04 2022 05:36 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Is unanimity needed for approval ownership? If that's the case then we're never restarting.

bmfc1 Mar 04 2022 06:01 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

23 of 30 is needed to ratify a deal so 8 can block a deal.

kcmets Mar 04 2022 08:48 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

US News/AP: MLB Players Start $1M Fund for Workers Impacted by Lockout

Johnny Lunchbucket Mar 04 2022 09:13 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I wrote up a MLB lockout angle on its effect on advetisers for work. It's paywalled but if you don;t subscribe there's some good stuff in there. --Advertisers spend about $1 billion on baseball each year--Budweiser alone spends $100 million. --a pretty well connected guy told me he still anticipates a quick resolution in part because that's too much to pass up and it'll get dispersed elsewhere soon if not --Scherzer is forfeiting $233,000 every day https://adage.com/article/marketing-news-strategy/mlb-lockout-leaves-brands-stranded-its-embarrassing/2403481

kcmets Mar 04 2022 03:20 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

So I'm guessing nothing good happened today? Again?

Johnny Lunchbucket Mar 04 2022 03:28 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Word got out that the players are willing to go back to the owners stupid 14 team playoff as leverage to get more in the pre-arb pool and luxury-tax fronts

Edgy MD Mar 04 2022 04:23 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Somebody's gonna have the dubious honor of winning a championship after finishing the season below .500, and it's a-gonna happen soon. And it very well could be your team.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 04 2022 05:01 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Somebody's gonna have the dubious honor of winning a championship after finishing the season below .500, and it's a-gonna happen soon.. I'll be rooting for exactly that with all my might.

bmfc1 Mar 05 2022 06:42 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Somebody's gonna have the dubious honor of winning a championship after finishing the season below .500, and it's a-gonna happen soon.. I'll be rooting for exactly that with all my might. Unless the Mets have a higher record and are still active in the playoffs, of course.

bmfc1 Mar 05 2022 06:47 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Mar 05 2022 11:56 AM

Sigh. I read that the MLBPA is considering putting the 14-team playoff plan back on the schedule. They agreed to 12 but MLB gets more $ ($100 million v. $85 million) for 14 than they do for 12. If the Players are going to agree to this they should get back a lot because it lowers the bar for a team to get into the playoffs so it disincentivizes the teams from signing players to big contracts ("we don't need to sign that big money FA, we'll win 82 games and you never know what will happen"). https://sny.tv/articles/how-a-14-team-mlb-playoff-would-work

seawolf17 Mar 05 2022 10:54 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

You have to shorten the season if you're adding playoff teams, right? Or else they'll be playing into December.

Frayed Knot Mar 05 2022 02:09 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Why stop at 14? Every argument that can be made for moving from 10 to 12, or 12 to 14, could be made for expanding to 16 or 18 (I'm not even sure where the NBA is at now, at least 20/30 I think).

Edgy MD Mar 05 2022 03:33 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

May your post reach the commissioner's desk.

whippoorwill Mar 05 2022 04:50 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

This is all horse shit

batmagadanleadoff Mar 05 2022 06:53 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Sigh. I read that the MLBPA is considering putting the 14-team playoff plan back on the schedule. They agreed to 12 but MLB gets more $ ($100 million v. $85 million) for 14 than they do for 12. If the Players are going to agree to this they should get back a lot because it lowers the bar for a team to get into the playoffs so it disincentivizes the teams from signing players to big contracts ("we don't need to sign that big money FA, we'll win 82 games and you never know what will happen"). https://sny.tv/articles/how-a-14-team-mlb-playoff-would-work That's an extra 15 mil. Divided by 30 owners. That's 500K per owner. All this for not even what a rookie on a minimum MLB salary makes.

Frayed Knot Mar 05 2022 07:19 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

MLBPA to respond to the owners latest proposal (whatever that was) on Sunday.

Frayed Knot Mar 06 2022 10:57 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Be sure to familiarize yourself with playoff "Ghost Games" because they may be part of a potential settlement near you.

Marshmallowmilkshake Mar 06 2022 11:07 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Is that where one of the teams starts a series with an automatic one-win advantage? Can't see the owners liking that, if the point of the expanded playoffs is to play more games on television. I don't love the expanded playoffs. But if it gets this thing agreed to, so be it.

kcmets Mar 06 2022 01:46 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

MLBTradeRumors (03/06/2022, 14:20 EDT): Details On MLBPA's Latest Offer To League

Fman99 Mar 07 2022 08:59 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Apparently owners and players are both on board with banning the shift. HATE IT

metsmarathon Mar 07 2022 09:14 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

god, it's so fucking stupid. hate the shift? be a better hitter. but whatever, the smart teams will figure it out. like maybe if i'm thinking of taking my shortstop and putting him in short right-center, maybe my left fielder doesn't have a whole lot to do way over the fuck there, so i'll move my damned outfielders around instead of my infielders. go ahead, i dare you to go oppo into the outfield, instead of through the infield. but if this stupid thing is the thing in the way of getting fucking baseball back, then, yes, lets ban the shift. shitty hitters can still get hits, batting averages can go back up, and baseball can get played again. for fucks sake, just get a fucking CBA signed, you assholes.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 07 2022 09:15 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I hated it too, but I've reconsidered. The game needs some adjustments. I won't object to a rule that says that two infielders have to be positioned on each side of second base. Ideally teams would find ways to beat the shift organically, but that's not happening and baseball games have become slow and plodding. If this, combined with a pitch clock, helps, then I'm okay with it. It's much less objectionable than that phantom extra-innings baserunner.

kcmets Mar 07 2022 09:17 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Next thing'll be if no one scores in the first five innings the rest of the game becomes a kickball match and first team to score wins.

Willets Point Mar 07 2022 09:53 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'm not even sure how they enforce a ban on a shift. Defensive players shift position during every at-bat and every situation. Will they be confined to a certain range of the field that they can position themselves before the ball is in play? Will we be getting video challenges over whether or not the shortstop was one step out of the shortstop zone? Anyway I hate it. Learn to bunt against the shift and the defense won't shift.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 07 2022 10:50 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Willets Point wrote: I Anyway I hate it. Wanna have a say in this? Organize the fans. Like a union. Then the fan union can make it's own demands in all of this against a threat of boycotting the games and MLB merchandise.

Edgy MD Mar 07 2022 11:04 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Might as well ban the slider while you're at it.

MFS62 Mar 07 2022 11:27 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Willets Point wrote: Will they be confined to a certain range of the field ... ? It worked for Derek Jeter. It was a physical limitation. Later

Frayed Knot Mar 07 2022 11:32 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Willets Point wrote: I'm not even sure how they enforce a ban on a shift. It'll be a simple ban on over-shifts. Two infielders on each side of 2B, and possibly requiring each to be on the IF dirt at the time of the pitch (not out in medium deep RF)

Willets Point Mar 07 2022 11:43 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Can they still have the SS and 2B swap if they want the stronger fielder on the right side of the infield?

Edgy MD Mar 07 2022 11:47 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Amazing that they are coming up with new ways to constrain game play while not letting the players actually play games.

Frayed Knot Mar 07 2022 11:52 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Willets Point wrote: Can they still have the SS and 2B swap if they want the stronger fielder on the right side of the infield? I assume so.

bmfc1 Mar 08 2022 06:03 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

My guess as to how and when it will be resolved: They'll crap around until March 31 which was supposed to be Opening Day and announce a new deal with the season to start in 3 weeks. They'll remove an off-day or two, play a few doubleheaders (split, because the owners are greedy), and the season will be 144 games with the players getting back most, but not all, of the 162 games per their contracts. They'll agree on the awful 14 team playoff plan which will make the owners very happy and in return, the players will get bigger playoff shares. The owners will be thrilled to rid themselves of most of those annoying April games and the players will be happy with whatever they get and then forget about how they got screwed, again. Manfred will get a raise and a bonus.

Fman99 Mar 08 2022 08:27 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Frayed Knot wrote: Willets Point wrote: Can they still have the SS and 2B swap if they want the stronger fielder on the right side of the infield? I assume so. Ted Williams batted .406 and he had to deal with the shift all the time. Changing the rules because hitters refuse to adapt or change their approach is hella-stupid. Just another brainless suggestion by baseball-hating commissioners.

ashie62 Mar 08 2022 10:03 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Baseball is a GAME and a PRIVILEGE to play it and own a team. Baseball ratings have been in the shitcan for awhile. They will lose many more fans. I COULD NOT CARE LESS WHEN/IF THEY COME BACK.

Edgy MD Mar 08 2022 10:26 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I care.

ashie62 Mar 08 2022 11:49 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: I care. I do also. I let my frustrations get in the way.

kcmets Mar 08 2022 02:18 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

MLBTradRumors (03/08/2022, 10:35 ET): MLB, MLBPA Continue Negotiations; MLB Suggests Tuesday As Latest Deadline For 162-Game Season

kcmets Mar 08 2022 04:34 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

USAToday (03/08/2022, 12:28 ET): Which MLB owners are likeliest to hold up the 2022 season over a few million?

Frayed Knot Mar 09 2022 04:52 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Lengthy (~17 hours) bargaining session on Monday, not breaking off until 3 AM Bad news: no settlement [CROSSOUT]Good[/CROSSOUT] Slightly better news: No further cancelations announced, talks will pick up today (Tuesday) with a 162 game sked apparently still on the table Ongoing news: If/when a settlement does get reached I'm not going to like most of the results from it: expanded playoffs; universal DH; shift bans; uniform advertising; games removed to streaming-only services. Plus likely still no real progress on time-of-game/pace-of-play issues and probably some other shit I can't think of of haven't heard of yet.

ashie62 Mar 09 2022 07:46 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

They went well into the night two straight days. They have to be close, don't they.

Frayed Knot Mar 09 2022 09:32 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=ashie62 post_id=86649 time=1646837180 user_id=90] They have to be close, don't they.

To totally fucking things up?

More than close IMO.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 09 2022 09:54 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

It sounds like they may be making progress. They seem pretty close on the minimum salary, and the league has finally budged on the CBT. They've agreed on the number of playoff teams and a few other things. I acknowledge that this can all go down the tubes in a hurry, but on the other hand, I wouldn't be at all surprised if a deal was completed today.

MFS62 Mar 09 2022 10:00 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I heard (WFAN? ESPN?) that one issue still holding things up is an international draft. One bright light is that some agents agree that the current system (any team can sign youngsters) exploits kids too young to realize the "implications". It would be funny if the agents are the force that finally lets them reach an agreement. Later

Edgy MD Mar 09 2022 10:37 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The exploitation is not the signing players in their mid-teans, but the reserve on them once signed. The idea that the institution of a draft would be to benefit the players is rich.

Marshmallowmilkshake Mar 09 2022 11:02 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'm afraid to be optimistic. But I'd also be stunned if this one issue prevents a deal from getting done. This also strikes me as an issue that is more important to the agents rather than the major league players.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 09 2022 11:06 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Frayed Knot wrote: Ongoing news: If/when a settlement does get reached I'm not going to like most of the results from it: expanded playoffs.... This expanded playoffs, to me, is a disaster. If I had to choose, I'd prefer that some games get canceled this year if it meant not expanding playoffs. Expanded playoffs is gonna be a deal breaker for me. I think I'll be watching less baseball, with less interest going forward. If they go to 14 playoff teams, I could even see myself missing Mets playoff games, something unimaginable before. Expanded playoffs looks like a win-win for the owners. Moer games, especially playoff games, means more money (stadium sales and TV revenue). And more playoff spots means the teams don't have to spend as much money on payroll. I suppose that the top-tier wealthiest teams will continue to spend as they have been. But past those top spending teams, payrolls will probably go down.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 09 2022 11:13 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Twelve teams out of thirty is too many, but not nearly as bad as fourteen out of thirty. I hope that if they do go to twelve, that expansion will soon follow and we'll be looking at twelve out of thirty-two, which is less bad than twelve out of thirty and much better than fourteen out of thirty.

kcmets Mar 09 2022 01:05 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

This is kinda funny... https://www.thecranepool.net/images/rickeybigbase.png>

G-Fafif Mar 09 2022 05:03 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Another two series have been canceled by MLB.

G-Fafif Mar 09 2022 05:05 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

[tweet]https://twitter.com/marlyriveraespn/status/1501702666107465736[/tweet]

MFS62 Mar 09 2022 05:06 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=G-Fafif post_id=86698 time=1646870587 user_id=55] Another two series have been canceled by MLB.

Joe Schultz.



Later

Fman99 Mar 09 2022 07:13 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Well shitfarts

Frayed Knot Mar 10 2022 05:43 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

My line of thinking at the moment is that I'm one more cancelation away from me canceling the season on them.

Marshmallowmilkshake Mar 10 2022 05:44 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

March 9, 11:15 p.m. According to MLB Network's Jon Heyman, the negotiators for the owners and players will talk on Thursday morning, with there being “hope to resurrect things” following the Players' Association's offer to work on an international draft. If the draft is agreed to, according to Heyman, draft-pick compensation (the qualifying offer) would be removed from the new CBA, an idea that originally came from Rob Manfred. MLB and the MLBPA hit a roadblock when talking about these issues earlier on Wednesday night, but it now sounds like the two sides are at least willing to start talking things through once again. I'm optimistic again. Seems like they are trading the international draft to removing a draft pick from the qualifying offer. That draft pick seems to be a factor in team's being willing to sign those middle-level free agents. I have to suspect the players are more interested in helping their middle class guys than whatever is going to the unsigned international players.

seawolf17 Mar 10 2022 06:19 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Frayed Knot wrote: My line of thinking at the moment is that I'm one more cancelation away from me canceling the season on them. I say this too, but fuck, you know I can't quit you, Mets. And I hate myself for it. LOL!

metsmarathon Mar 10 2022 06:21 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

they could just leave these two things as is, y'know. status quo ftw. i don't think the draft pick really kills all that much player salary, whereas the international draft is certainly considered by many dominican players, and from other places, as potentially ruinous. i don't know enough about it, but i could certainly see it being a death-knell to the team-run baseball academies there. why put money into players to no longer get first dibs on a guy? seems like the obvious solution would be for mlb to start running the academies, and maybe brand them for different teams for marketing purposes...? but who knows. they should be able to figure this thing out, no?

Frayed Knot Mar 10 2022 06:39 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=metsmarathon post_id=86721 time=1646918480 user_id=83] i don't think the draft pick really kills all that much player salary, whereas the international draft is certainly considered by many dominican players, and from other places, as potentially ruinous. i don't know enough about it, but i could certainly see it being a death-knell to the team-run baseball academies there. why put money into players to no longer get first dibs on a guy?

There's definitely a line of thinking that including Puerto Rico in the draft slowed the flow of talent from that island. No longer did it pay for scouts -- local and state-side -- to going looking under

every rock for talent when, like you say, finding that guy gives you no leg up on winding up with him. So the volume of players coming from PR lessened in favor of places such as the DR and

Venezuela.



The owner, of course, want a draft because bidding wars for the cream of the Caribbean crop are getting more expensive and the fact that you've got to commit these bucks to 16 year-olds adds

a big element of swing and miss into the equation. Smaller market clubs at least used to like those academies especially because, even if the big boys were out-bidding each other for the elite

teenagers, they were working on it from a volume of raw talent standpoint hoping that several of their successes would collectively out-perform one or more of the stars they never bid on.

The problem for them now is that the other clubs have academies AND big purses so the smaller guys can no longer find an untapped niche of their own as the Astros did for a time in

Venezuela [Blobby Abreu, Richard Hildalgo, Freddie Garcia, Jose Altuve, many more]

Edgy MD Mar 10 2022 08:57 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Sure, but those other clubs are constrained by bonus caps. Just drop it all. No spending constraints. It's all boochit and it will lead to work stoppages into perpetuity. Get rid of it. Burn it down like Left-Eye. Everyone will be the better for it.

Marshmallowmilkshake Mar 10 2022 09:54 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

More optimism! Get this done! March 10, 11:31 a.m. MLB and the MLBPA have reached an agreement on the international draft issue. Per the agreement, the sides have until July 25 to come to an agreement on the draft. If a deal is reached, the qualifying offer and associated draft pick compensation will be eliminated. If a deal is not reached, the QO and draft pick compensation would remain. In the event the sides reach an agreement on the international draft, it will go into effect in 2024. The rest of negotiations on the CBA were being held up by the international draft issue. With that situation now resolved, the sides can continue working toward an agreement to end the lockout. The two sides are close on the luxury tax, with the union's latest offer asking for $232 million in the first year of the deal while MLB is at $230 million. On the bonus pool, the players are at $65 million and the league is at $40 million. When it comes to the minimum salary, the two sides are painfully close, with the league offering $700,000 in the first year of a new CBA and that salary maxing out at $780,000 in the final year. The players are asking for $710,000 in the first year, and have it maxing out at the same figure as the league. After talks broke down late Wednesday afternoon before quickly being revived, commissioner Rob Manfred scrapped two more regular season series, but used the word "remove" instead of "cancel" when doing so. That is fueling the hope that a full 162-game schedule is still possible if a deal is reached today.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 10 2022 10:21 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The difference between a minimum salary of $700,000 and $710,000 is so negligible. Splitting the difference at $705,000 seems like a no-brainer. The same about the first year of the CBT. $232 million or $230 million? May I suggest... $231 million?

Frayed Knot Mar 10 2022 10:50 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Sure, but those other clubs are constrained by bonus caps. I was doing more a history of foreign player scouting/signing, most of which took place prior to more recent per/team Int'l bonus caps. And when Puerto Rican hopefuls were added to the draft procedure (early '90s I believe) the result was a decrease of players coming from that island which in turn led to draft-free DR and Venezuela becoming the more abundant sources of talent.

kcmets Mar 10 2022 10:59 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Did anyone have March 10th in the pool?

bmfc1 Mar 10 2022 12:14 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

If they make the deal today and start the season on April 15 we can thank Jackie Robinson as not even the selfish, greedy, bastards that own MLB teams (I'm not talking about Steve Cohen) would want to suffer the embarrassment of locking out the players on the 75th Anniversary of Jackie Robinson's first game in MLB.

metsmarathon Mar 10 2022 12:17 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

if they could've played 162 games with an agreement on tuesday, why the fuuuuuck could not they do it with one were it to happen today?

kcmets Mar 10 2022 01:19 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Union votes yes -- MLB Network quoting Hey Man.

G-Fafif Mar 10 2022 01:19 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

[tweet]https://twitter.com/jeffpassan/status/1502015630966415361[/tweet]

Benjamin Grimm Mar 10 2022 01:24 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Passan saying that Opening Day is expected to be April 7.

G-Fafif Mar 10 2022 01:29 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

No more seven-inning doubleheaders or runners on second to start extra innings.

kcmets Mar 10 2022 01:33 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

^^ AMEN! ^^

metsmarathon Mar 10 2022 01:39 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

"The new five-year CBA is expected to include increased minimum salaries, a new pre-arbitration bonus pool to reward the top young players in the game, a raise in competitive balance tax thresholds, the introduction of a universal designated hitter, the widest-ranging Draft lottery in pro sports, a system to prevent alleged service-time manipulation, limits on the number of times a player can be optioned in a season and a 12-team postseason. There will also be the evaluation of an international Draft."

Benjamin Grimm Mar 10 2022 01:41 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

So each league will have three division winners and three wild cards. Do we know yet how the playoffs will be structured? Do two of the division winners get a bye from a first-round best-of-three?

Fman99 Mar 10 2022 01:42 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

A-FUCKING-MEN TO THAT

Johnny Lunchbucket Mar 10 2022 01:46 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=G-Fafif post_id=86737 time=1646944183 user_id=55] No more seven-inning doubleheaders or runners on second to start extra innings.

Really?!?

Edgy MD Mar 10 2022 01:49 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'm so happy that I will finally get the chance to start miserably booing the proliferation of the designated hitter.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 10 2022 01:52 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'm happier about the end of the extra-inning baserunner and the seven-inning games than I am upset about the DH. (And I really hate the DH.)

nymr83 Mar 10 2022 01:57 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Did anyone have March 10th in the pool? I had "Putin installs Puppet Government in Kyiv" ahead of "Billionaires and Millionaires come to their senses"

nymr83 Mar 10 2022 01:58 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'm happier about the end of the extra-inning baserunner and the seven-inning games than I am upset about the DH. (And I really hate the DH.) Ditto. I don't like the DH but I hate those two rules even more - ESPECIALLY the extra inning baserunner.

kcmets Mar 10 2022 01:58 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Ratification slated for 6PM -- MLB Network quoting that Martino guy you all have a pet name for lololol...

batmagadanleadoff Mar 10 2022 01:59 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I didn't follow this at all, not even a speck of it, other than the posts I read on this forum. I assumed that if games had to be canceled, it wouldnt be more than two or three weeks worth of games and about that possibility, I didnt give a flying fuck about it, either way. I have no idea whether they agreed to expand playoffs, and if so, by how many teams. Other than expanded playoffs, which I Ioathe, I just dont give a shit about any of this.

bmfc1 Mar 10 2022 02:04 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Hooray!

Benjamin Grimm Mar 10 2022 02:11 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Okay, now sign Michael Conforto and Kris Bryant and, I don't know, Sandy Koufax and Walter Johnson.

G-Fafif Mar 10 2022 02:16 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: No more seven-inning doubleheaders or runners on second to start extra innings. Really?!? [tweet]https://twitter.com/jesserogersespn/status/1502017545414479872[/tweet]

Benjamin Grimm Mar 10 2022 02:26 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I still haven't seen anything about the post-season format. Did the "ghost win" survive? (I'm guessing not.) I like that the first round will (probably) be a best-of-three (instead of a best-of-one) but I won't like it if a division winner is vulnerable to getting eliminated by a wild-card team in a best-of-three. For that reason, I think I prefer the ghost-win concept for that particular series. I guess we'll be seeing the details soon. But this is the part I'm most curious about right now about the new CBA.

Frayed Knot Mar 10 2022 02:28 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Frayed Knot wrote: My line of thinking at the moment is that I'm one more cancelation away from me canceling the season on them. And now I'll never know if I would have really followed through on this.

Willets Point Mar 10 2022 02:34 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The negotiations were going nowhere until they saw your ultimatum, FK. You have the power!!!!

Edgy MD Mar 10 2022 02:46 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'm happier about the end of the extra-inning baserunner and the seven-inning games than I am upset about the DH. (And I really hate the DH.) =nymr83 post_id=86746 time=1646945894 user_id=54] Benjamin Grimm wrote: I'm happier about the end of the extra-inning baserunner and the seven-inning games than I am upset about the DH. (And I really hate the DH.) Ditto. I don't like the DH but I hate those two rules even more - ESPECIALLY the extra inning baserunner.

Apples and oranges, man. Apples and oranges.



I'm not letting some jerk get away with poisoning me because he didn't shoot me as well. Those two rules were explicitly never supposed to be permanent. This rule is.

MFS62 Mar 10 2022 02:53 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

One report said, in part, "The National League has adopted the use of the DH". In my mind that should have said, "The DH was forced down the throat of the National League in order to get this done." Later

Willets Point Mar 10 2022 03:13 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

So I'm assuming the schedule is not being altered in any way other than that first week of games being deleted. I guess there are some teams out there that are happy their games against some team like the Dodgers and the Rays are erased.

G-Fafif Mar 10 2022 03:14 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Willets Point wrote: So I'm assuming the schedule is not being altered in any way other than that first week of games being deleted. I guess there are some teams out there that are happy their games against some team like the Dodgers and the Rays are erased. Gonna be 162, with full-length doubleheaders wedged in.

G-Fafif Mar 10 2022 03:17 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Deets from Passan. Major League Baseball and the MLB Players Association reached a tentative agreement on a new collective bargaining agreement Thursday, ending the league's 99-day lockout of the players and salvaging a 162-game season, sources familiar with the situation told ESPN. With the end of the second-longest work stoppage in the game's history, spring training camps will open Sunday, free-agent signings can begin Thursday night, and baseball will attempt to return to some semblance of normalcy after months of fraught negotiations. The deal materialized after talks ratcheted up this week, when the league made a proposal that bridged the significant gap in the competitive-balance tax, a key issue in the end stages of talks. A dispute over an international draft threatened negotiations and caused the league to "remove from the schedule" another two series Wednesday, but those issues were resolved Thursday morning and the league delivered a full proposal to the union, which it voted to accept. The final vote by the MLBPA's eight members of the executive subcommittee and 30 player reps was 26-12 in favor of the agreement, sources told ESPN. The basic agreement governs almost all aspects of the game, but baseball's core economics were front and center in the labor talks. In addition to the new CBT, which increases from $230 million to $244 million over the five-year deal, the minimum salary governing players with less than three years of major league service will jump from $570,500 to $700,000, growing to $780,000, and a bonus pool worth $50 million will be distributed among those younger players who have yet to reach salary arbitration. MLB had pushed for expanding the postseason to 12 teams -- a plan to which the MLBPA agreed. Additionally, player uniforms will feature advertising for the first time, with patches on jerseys and decals on batting helmets. Other elements of the deal include: • A 45-day window for MLB to implement rules changes -- among them a pitch clock, ban on shifts and larger bases in the 2023 season. • The National League adopting the designated hitter. • A draft lottery implemented with the intent of discouraging tanking. • Draft-pick inducements to discourage service-time manipulation. • Limiting the number of times a player can be optioned to the minor leagues in one season. https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33470321/sources-mlb-union-reach-tentative-agreement-new-cba-salvage-162-game-season

Willets Point Mar 10 2022 03:27 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Willets Point wrote: So I'm assuming the schedule is not being altered in any way other than that first week of games being deleted. I guess there are some teams out there that are happy their games against some team like the Dodgers and the Rays are erased. Gonna be 162, with full-length doubleheaders wedged in. Teams that now have double headers against the Dodgers and the Rays saying "FUCK!"

Lefty Specialist Mar 10 2022 03:30 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Just glad they got it done. Going to be an absolute free-agent FRENZY starting almost immediately. Hope Uncle Steve has his wallet open.

MFS62 Mar 10 2022 03:32 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Deets from Passan. • Limiting the number of times a player can be optioned to the minor leagues in one season. https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33470321/sources-mlb-union-reach-tentative-agreement-new-cba-salvage-162-game-season Edgy, this looks like it will make your roster updates a tad less frequent (how much less isn't clear). Players won't be bouncing back and forth between the majors and the minors as much as in recent years. How do you feel about that? Later

Edgy MD Mar 10 2022 03:47 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I don't care about roster updates, but I've long argued that the attempt by teams to try to expand their roster size to 29 or 30 players, by regularly swapping out the back-end relievers, is competitively counter-productive. Is certainly not conducive to a player's career progress.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 10 2022 04:10 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Lefty Specialist wrote: Hope Uncle Steve has his wallet open. That wallet's too thick to close.

bmfc1 Mar 10 2022 04:33 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/jareddiamond/status/1502062106862137351[/TWEET]

Benjamin Grimm Mar 10 2022 04:37 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I prefer the unbalanced schedule. Oh well.

Lefty Specialist Mar 10 2022 05:10 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Not looking forward to playing every team in the AL every year unless it means playing fewer games against the Yanx.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 10 2022 05:17 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I found this about the new postseason. No ghost wins... https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2022/03/postseason-expands-to-12-teams-first-round-will-be-three-game-series.html

ashie62 Mar 10 2022 05:25 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Basically they are punting the international issue til July and if they don't come up with a format for a draft there will not be one.

Methead Mar 10 2022 05:25 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Syracuse basketball ends, Mets baseball begins. Same as it ever was.

G-Fafif Mar 10 2022 05:28 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The players' faces are back on the Mets.com roster.

Marshmallowmilkshake Mar 10 2022 06:05 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/jareddiamond/status/1502062106862137351[/TWEET] Wait, I kinda like this! As an out-of-market fan, I'll have more chances to see the Mets in person!

bmfc1 Mar 10 2022 06:18 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I guess they won't play 3 series against NL East teams, maybe 2, with the other games against AL teams. So instead of playing Atlanta, who they are battling for the division title, they will travel to Minnesota. Also: [TWEET]https://twitter.com/timbhealey/status/1502079826236223489[/TWEET]

Benjamin Grimm Mar 10 2022 06:35 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'd be very tempted to go see the Mets in London or Paris...

Edgy MD Mar 10 2022 08:09 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I like that they've narrowed one of the locations down to "Asia."

Fman99 Mar 10 2022 09:01 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/jareddiamond/status/1502062106862137351[/TWEET] Wait, I kinda like this! As an out-of-market fan, I'll have more chances to see the Mets in person! The downside is fewer games on East coast time and more late innings I will miss, fast asleep.

Edgy MD Mar 10 2022 09:16 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'd go for two games each against every team in the opposite league, one each at home and on the road.You'd get the plurality of contests played in-division, but just one shot every year to see your beloved Gatlinburg Gumboshoes come to town. It would be glorious. It would also add up to the same 30 games per year that you get by playing six against each of the division rivals.fi .................. 18 games against each division rival = 72 games ... 6 games against each non-division league rival = 60 game ........ 2 games against each opposite league rival = 30 games ........................................................................ ------------ ........................................................... Total = 162 games Playing the Angels and Cubs the same number of times per year is just wrongy-wrong.

Double Switch Mar 10 2022 09:30 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'll be interested to see how this impacts each team's annual travel mileage burden. West coast teams always spend far more time in the air compared to those east of the Mississippi.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 10 2022 10:27 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Playing the Angels and Cubs the same number of times per year is just wrongy-wrong. It's disgusting. Its almost as bad as having 14 playoff teams. Between playing every team and the universal DH, there's no longer a point to having divisions or even separate leagues. Oh, for the days when the Mets played the Pirates and Cubs 18 time a year and you really got to know your division rivals. I guess if half the teams make the playoffs and pennant races are now watered down and dumbed down it wont matter much when the Mets inevitably play the fucking Texas Rangers in the last series of the regular season. I fully await all the drama of two 79 win teams battling it out for the last playoff spot in what's gonna pass for the new pennant races. Under this disgusting new format, the '86 Mets woulda clinched a playoff spot -- when? -- by Memorial Day?

Willets Point Mar 11 2022 07:58 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: I like that they've narrowed one of the locations down to "Asia." A series in Thimpu, Bhutan for some Himalayan-sized homers!

Willets Point Mar 11 2022 08:02 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I know I'm a broken record, but I've long been on board for a regional realignment of the leagues. Three leagues of 10 teams (East, Central, West) with a balanced league-only schedule. Build up regional rivalries and sell more tickets because fans will be able to travel to more road games. All the games in the same (or adjacent) time zones so TV viewers aren't falling asleep (or still at work) when the game is on and ratings go up. If they expand to 32 teams, then four leagues of 8 teams each works even better.

Edgy MD Mar 11 2022 08:08 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

That's OK. I'm not jumping to agree, but I think being a broken record is great. Fight, fight, fight for your turf!

Benjamin Grimm Mar 11 2022 08:17 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I do think that now that this CBA is in place, talk of expansion will start to heat up.

Fman99 Mar 11 2022 09:32 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Willets Point wrote: I know I'm a broken record, but I've long been on board for a regional realignment of the leagues. Three leagues of 10 teams (East, Central, West) with a balanced league-only schedule. Build up regional rivalries and sell more tickets because fans will be able to travel to more road games. All the games in the same (or adjacent) time zones so TV viewers aren't falling asleep (or still at work) when the game is on and ratings go up. If they expand to 32 teams, then four leagues of 8 teams each works even better. This is an easier pill for a lot of folks to swallow now that they've crammed the DuH down NL fans' throats. The two leagues really are indistinguishable now, rules-wise.

metsmarathon Mar 11 2022 09:38 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

i'd be on board with a 3x10 regional alignment. [TABLE] [/TABLE] east central west mets twins mariners yankees brewers a's red sox tigers giants phillies guardians angels blue jays reds dodgers orioles cubs padres nationals white sox d-backs marlins cardinals rockies rays royals rangers pirates braves astros expansion gets tricky, but assuming you have a team in vegas (bad idea but whatevs) or portland, and a team in the carolinas or montreal (and no other teams move) you could get the following: [TABLE] [/TABLE] east north south west mets twins rockeis] mariners yankees brewers royals a's red sox tigers cardinals giants phillies guardians rangers angels pirates reds astros dodgers orioles cubs braves padres nationals white sox rays d-backs CAROLINA blue jays marlins VEGAS i'm sure other permutations are possible. like if a team were in montreal, you'd want them in the same division as the jays, but its a start, and not altogether wacky.

bmfc1 Mar 11 2022 09:59 AM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'm guessing that Nashville is a favorite for an expansion team.

batmagadanleadoff Mar 11 2022 12:03 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

No more tiebreaking games. No more 163d games. Tiebreakers for playoff spots and seeds will now be determined by mathematical formulas.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 11 2022 12:07 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I don't particularly like that. That's okay for seeds, but not for whether or not you win a division or a playoff spot.

Frayed Knot Mar 11 2022 12:45 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Willets Point wrote: Three leagues of 10 teams (East, Central, West) with a balanced league-only schedule. ... If they expand to 32 teams, then four leagues of 8 teams each works even better. Unfortunately, the trend in U.S. sports is towards more and more divisions with fewer teams in each (and, of course, greatly expanded post-seasons) and MLB is clearly into chasing trends right now. [Duh, the NFL went to 14 teams so we need to also]

Edgy MD Mar 11 2022 01:41 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

And the ongoing trend, of course, is for even numbers of leagues/conferences. I'm pretty certain we'll have two leagues of two divisions and eight teams in each division within three years.

Willets Point Mar 11 2022 02:24 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: I'm pretty certain we'll have two leagues of two divisions and eight teams in each division within three years. I wouldn't mind that so much, but I fear that the two leagues will have four divisions of four teams each. And every season one or more divisions will be "won" by a team with around 80 to 85 wins. And a 100+ win team in another division in the same lead will get a Wild Card.

Double Switch Mar 11 2022 02:27 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: And the ongoing trend, of course, is for even numbers of leagues/conferences. I'm pretty certain we'll have two leagues of two divisions and eight teams in each division within three years. In keeping with even numbers, within two to four years.

Centerfield Mar 11 2022 03:48 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=86832 time=1647025420 user_id=68] No more tiebreaking games. No more 163d games. Tiebreakers for playoff spots and seeds will now be determined by mathematical formulas.

Determining by mathematical formulas is dumb.



It would even make more sense to determine winners by giving them math problems.

Frayed Knot Mar 11 2022 03:50 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: I'm pretty certain we'll have two leagues of two divisions and eight teams in each division within three years. I doubt it. They'll (stupidly) go to eight divisions of four teams each rather than four/eight.

Double Switch Mar 11 2022 03:57 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Frayed Knot wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I'm pretty certain we'll have two leagues of two divisions and eight teams in each division within three years. I doubt it. They'll (stupidly) go to eight divisions of four teams each rather than four/eight. But the leagues/divisions will all play using the same standard rules just like in the NFL, the NHL, the NBA.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 11 2022 03:59 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Frayed Knot wrote: Edgy MD wrote: I'm pretty certain we'll have two leagues of two divisions and eight teams in each division within three years. I doubt it. They'll (stupidly) go to eight divisions of four teams each rather than four/eight. I also think that that's the more likely scenario.

Edgy MD Mar 11 2022 04:19 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Man, you don't know how things will change, but a division of the Jays, Sox, Yankees, and Orioles could be brutal for Baltimore.

Lefty Specialist Mar 11 2022 04:43 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Man, you don't know how things will change, but a division of the Jays, Sox, Yankees, and Orioles could be brutal for Baltimore. Easier than a division of the Jays, Sox, Yankees, Rays and Orioles.

Edgy MD Mar 11 2022 07:46 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Perhaps, but at time of my posing, I imagined a four-team division of the four most northeastern AL teams. I guess I was placing the Rays in a division with three other non-existent southeastern AL squads. I dunno. Maybe they end up with Houston, Texas, and Chatanooga or something in the "AL South."

Benjamin Grimm Mar 15 2022 12:34 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/mlbs-runner-on-second-in-extras-rule-reportedly-could-return-league-testing-ball-strike-challenge-in-minors/ The extra-innings ghost-runner rule may not be going away just yet. MLB and the MLBPA are discussing bringing the rule, which places a runner at second base at the beginning of every half-inning after the ninth inning, back as part of the league's health and safety protocols for the 2022 season, report The Athletic's Matt Gelb and Jayson Stark. No agreement has been reached on the tiebreaker rule or the healthy and safety protocols in general, though several players told Gelb and Stark they expect the rule to return in 2022. MLB and the MLBPA agreed to do away with the rule, as well as seven-inning doubleheader games, as part of the new collective bargaining agreement. The healthy and safety protocols are expected to be announced later this week.

Frayed Knot Mar 15 2022 02:36 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

A rule which has ZERO to do with health and safety issues.

Edgy MD Mar 15 2022 02:59 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

While I certainly agree, has anybody tried to lay out the process by which this rule ameliorates health and safety concerns?

kcmets Mar 15 2022 03:09 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: has anybody tried to lay out the process by which this rule ameliorates health and safety Yes. That's all this retard can say until further notice.

Willets Point Mar 15 2022 03:36 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I believe the idea was that by preventing long extra-inning games it limited potential exposure to COVID, but there are seemingly dozens of other much more effective health and safety rules that have already been discontinued. It's kind of like people who are going to parties unmasked still kept washing their groceries when they brought them home.

kcmets Mar 15 2022 04:01 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

There's a whole 'nother majority of players who don't like long games going into the 13-14th inning -- thinking it's taxing on the body, causes players to miss subsequent games and messes up the bullpen rotations. Not to mention that there's also having to send pitchers down and and bringing in a fresh arm. Or so I've heard. Gosh knows what I'll wake up to tomorrow for posting that.

Edgy MD Mar 15 2022 05:17 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Yeah, I figure this is an attempt to use Covid as an excuse to avoid something that's perhaps less-than-desireable to owners and management.

Johnny Lunchbucket Mar 16 2022 01:20 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Not sure if this was at all related to the CBA (prolly not) but after a shameful episode in 2021, the Minor Leagues are taking back their rightful names (PCL, IL, EL, SAL, FSL, MWL, TL etc)

Edgy MD Mar 16 2022 01:24 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

That's great.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 16 2022 01:32 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

That is good news. I don't know why those names were ever abandoned.

MFS62 Mar 16 2022 01:49 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Not sure if this was at all related to the CBA (prolly not) but after a shameful episode in 2021, the Minor Leagues are taking back their rightful names (PCL, IL, EL, SAL, FSL, MWL, TL etc) A big thank you to the person who made that decision. Later

A Boy Named Seo Mar 16 2022 02:30 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The new PCL logo is gorgeous https://ballparkdigest.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/PCL-2022.jpg>

nymr83 Mar 16 2022 11:34 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

Edgy MD wrote: Yeah, I figure this is an attempt to use Covid as an excuse to avoid something that's perhaps less-than-desireable to owners and management. long extra inning games are not desirable to anyone other than diehard baseball fans. I'm sure the owners would like to turn the stadium lights off and stop paying the hourly workers, the management would like to avoid figuring out which Triple A pitchers need to get on a plane ASAP, the players would prefer not to work extra innings for the same money and still have to wake up and do it again tomorrow. The broadcasters want to go home as do 75% of the fans including all the ones who brought their kids. the network wants to move on to it's next scheduled programming. Maybe the teenagers working a summer job at the ballpark like the overtime, but most of the other employees also want to get home.

Frayed Knot Mar 22 2022 06:25 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

The Return of Ghost Runner But it's only for health and safety reasons [aka: the label we can slap on it so as to justify it] and it's only for the 2022 [aka: just like that experimental rule they tried out in one of the leagues back in '73] But, hey, at least they're agreeing to nine-inning games rather than the seven which constituted almost 1/4 of the NYM season last year or the other proposal for dividing the game into four quarters (OK, I made that last one up but you can't prove it wasn't under consideration ... hey, it works for football!!!) Also expanded rosters thru May 1st and a pitcher-to-DH rule (apparently existing solely for Shohei Ohtani). Owners still have to approve of all this but it's a simple majority vote (majorities are often simple IMO) and it's considered a virtual automatic.

Fman99 Mar 22 2022 06:34 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I'd wish for ghost runners to die but of course they are already dead, being ghosts.

Benjamin Grimm Mar 22 2022 06:39 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

That sucks. I was really happy to see it go. I'd rather see the game end in a tie after 12 innings than to have that stupid ghost runner.

Frayed Knot Mar 22 2022 08:01 PM Re: Collective Bargaining Agreement

I suspect this will wind up as an 'only after 12 innings' rule which, because it's not as bad as what they started with, will sound reasonable in comparison.