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The Buck stops here?

Marshmallowmilkshake Dec 03 2021 10:23 AM

[url]https://nypost.com/2021/12/02/why-mets-should-hire-buck-showalter-as-their-next-manager/ Mike Vaccaro is the latest to opine that Buck Showalter should be the Mets manager. And the team itself, to be blunt, could use an intestinal makeover. Let's use that phrase instead of the over-battered and uber-bloodied “culture,” because what the Mets crave transcends culture. They seek serious baseball leadership. It's perfectly fine to smile in the game; that's supposed to be the point. But Showalter's teams, in addition to almost always being of a superior collective baseball IQ, also take care of their business properly. The McNeil-Lindor silliness would have never have escalated to burlesque slapstick on the Showalter Mets, to name one recent fiasco. And the Mets' long-standing habit of sending mixed messages through the media would almost certainly cease. The Mets, under Showalter, would be a Showalter team. That may mean they're a couple of degrees less flamboyant, maybe a few layers less fun-loving. You could look it up — the personalities of Showalter's teams will never be confused with the '86 Mets, the '93 Phillies. Adam Jones likes him: [url]https://www.sny.tv/articles/adam-jones-buck-showalter-mets Winning record over 20 years is something to be applauded. Hasn't managed since 2018. Don't know what he thinks about the analytics. Old school. What do you think?

MFS62 Dec 03 2021 11:17 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

He seems to be able to get his players to play up to their abilities (which is a good skill) but his teams haven't gone beyond that. He has a losing playoff record once he gets his teams there. If the Mets were a young team, that would be good. Then he could develop them and then hand off the reins to a manager who could take them to the next step. But many of the Mets are getting older or are on short term contracts, not a good long term mix for a manager of his talents. I'm not totally against him, but he doesn't seem like the ideal candidate to me, based on their situation. Later

batmagadanleadoff Dec 03 2021 11:46 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

Sure. Because the dozen or two post-season games Showalter managed is so much more telling than the thousands and thousands and thousands (did I say thousands?) of regular season games Showalter managed. Don't even get me started on the total crap-shoot lucky charm nature of post-season baseball, where good teams play against other good teams and anybody can take the title. Anybody. And Al Weis was one of the greatest power-hitting infielders there ever was.

MFS62 Dec 03 2021 12:07 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

He asked what I thought and I did that. If you think he should be hired, tell us why you think that. Later

batmagadanleadoff Dec 03 2021 12:16 PM Re: The Buck stops here? Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 03 2021 12:19 PM

=MFS62 post_id=82480 time=1638558428 user_id=60] He asked what I thought and I did that. If you think he should be hired, tell us why you think that. Later

I honestly have no opinion on whether or not Showalter should manage the Mets. Though I'd guess that he'd be better than every other Mets manager going back at least 20 years, maybe even thirty years. So maybe that's an endorsement, I dunno.



I do have very powerful and negative opinions on judging baseballers by placing way greater emphasis on the post-season over the regular season.

Edgy MD Dec 03 2021 12:18 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Most managers that have a losing playoff record, if they have a playoff record at all.

Johnny Lunchbucket Dec 03 2021 12:22 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

plus he won damn world series already

batmagadanleadoff Dec 03 2021 12:24 PM Re: The Buck stops here? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 03 2021 12:27 PM

I say "I dunno" because being better than the Nutjob Bunter Wee Willie Small Balls isn't much of a bar to beat.

MFS62 Dec 03 2021 12:26 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

I say "I dunno" because being better than the Nutjob Bunter Wee Willie Small Balls is much of a threshold. LOL! On THAT we agree! Later

TransMonk Dec 03 2021 12:36 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

I'd have preferred Showalter to Mickey, Beltran and Rojas at those times, so I'm not opposed to him now.

G-Fafif Dec 03 2021 12:47 PM Re: The Buck stops here? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 03 2021 04:56 PM

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: plus he won damn world series already Managed two teams on the cusp of winning the World Series (MFYs and D'Backs) but was removed (in favor of Torre, then Brenly*) before he had the chance to perhaps finish the job. *Bob Brenly — or as his coaches called him, Brenda.

Johnny Lunchbucket Dec 03 2021 01:01 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Eight time manager of the year. Looks like Whitey Herzog from a distance. I would have no ready complaints if he's the guy

kcmets Dec 03 2021 01:19 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Eight time manager of the year. Three times according to his wikipage - '94, '04 and '14.

Frayed Knot Dec 03 2021 01:24 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

I mentioned in a different thread (where the topic of first-timer vs old-hand was being discussed) that he'd be the first one I'd go to out of the old-hand names getting tossed around. He seems to wear on players and front office after a couple of years but I'll worry about that a couple of years from now.

Frayed Knot Dec 03 2021 01:34 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

=G-Fafif post_id=82489 time=1638560871 user_id=55] Managed two teams on the cusp of winning the World Series (MFYs and D'Backs) but was removed (in favor of Torre, then Brenda) ...

Vacarro?

Benjamin Grimm Dec 03 2021 01:46 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Starr.

bmfc1 Dec 03 2021 02:35 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Or, do you pick a newbie after firing a newbie? https://sny.tv/articles/mets-manager-search-tracker-2022-season

MFS62 Dec 03 2021 03:13 PM Re: The Buck stops here? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 03 2021 03:26 PM

It would not be the first time a Showalter wore a Mets uniform. Back in 1976, Hyannis Mets player Nat (Buck's middle name) Showalter was named the Cape Cod League MVP, leading the league with a .434 batting average. I'm not sure if it is the same person, but think it might be, Later

kcmets Dec 03 2021 03:16 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

My guess, just for posting posterity sake, is they'll pick a newbie. Someone they can mold, instead of someone who is approaching mold. Buck is not taking this job without have a giant say so in what goes on and I don't think that's what the Mets are looking for right now.

Fman99 Dec 03 2021 09:04 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Yes, put me down for "old white guy who knows MLB," please.

bmfc1 Dec 04 2021 07:12 AM Re: The Buck stops here? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Dec 04 2021 12:14 PM

Note that Mike Shildt, formerly of STL and #3 in MoY voting, isn't being named/leaked as a candidate for the job. I thought that he'd be a frontrunner. I don't know the right answer but this decision might be one of polar opposites: a 65-year old veteran who has managed more than 3000 games (Dusty Baker is 72 and he did well in HOU) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Showalter#Baltimore_Orioles https://sports.yahoo.com/news/the-colossal-inexplicable-mistake-of-buck-showalter-081733150.html (the decision that might have cost the Orioles a WS title) or a 46-year old who has never managed anywhere https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Espada Whatever they decide, it shouldn't be based on Luis's failures (he was new so we shouldn't hire another new guy) because everyone is different (and maybe Espada doesn't manage based on "up/downs"). Howie continues to campaign for Buck: [TWEET]https://twitter.com/HowieRose/status/1467139624552304648[/TWEET]

The Hot Corner Dec 04 2021 10:55 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

I would be fine with Showalter if the Mets can land him as manager. The Mets have been through numerous inexperienced managers (Randolph, Callaway, Beltran - sort of, and Rojas) over recent without much success to show for it. Their best seasons during the 21st century were under the experienced guidance of Bobby Valentine and Terri Collins. The Mets can't afford to try breaking in a new manager, particularly when this team is currently being constructed to win now.

Edgy MD Dec 04 2021 11:39 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

“He'd have at least four championships (and I might argue one more that Three screwed up) if he didn't let his own ego get in the way. George told him to fire all hiss coaches in '95 because of the loss to the Mariners. He said no. George fired him. George then tried to hire him back the next day but Buck would have none of it.” If this is the worst way you can frame the narrative in order to argue that the guy has an ego problem, I don't know what to say. That's not what an ego problem looks like to me.

Fman99 Dec 05 2021 03:51 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

The Hot Corner wrote: The Mets have been through numerous inexperienced managers (Randolph, Callaway, Beltran - sort of, and Rojas) over recent without much success to show for it. Their best seasons during the 21st century were under the experienced guidance of Bobby Valentine and Terri Collins. Yep this is what I keep coming back to.

Ceetar Dec 05 2021 06:11 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

The Hot Corner wrote: I would be fine with Showalter if the Mets can land him as manager. The Mets have been through numerous inexperienced managers (Randolph, Callaway, Beltran - sort of, and Rojas) over recent without much success to show for it. Their best seasons during the 21st century were under the experienced guidance of Bobby Valentine and Terri Collins. The Mets can't afford to try breaking in a new manager, particularly when this team is currently being constructed to win now. But this is wrong? They floundered in the first year(s) of the century with Valentine, and then hired the established Howe, and also failed. It wasn't until they brought in the inexperienced Randolph that they started winning again. I don't know if you can really blame the collapse on him, but they tried to right the ship with Manuel, who had won a manager of the year award and it didn't work. They pivoted to Collins during their rebuild, probably for player dev reasons, and it wasn't like he groomed some young prospects into stars. It was mostly key acquisitions in 2015 that got them into the WS. Biggest players were guys like Cespedes, Reed, Kelly Johnson and Juan Uribe, and of course Michael Conforto who was a rookie callup. The reason people are talking about an established manager is because the Mets, and by extension the media, are talking about clubhouse chemistry nonsense and think that's the way to go about (presenting that they are) fixing it. But I think we've seen around the league that sometimes veterans, especially highly respected hall of fame caliber ones like Beltran, can actually do wonders. And of course, 99% of chemistry is winning games. So the new guys, Randolph had success, Dick pic mick didn't (though he has a positive managerial record) and Rojas was the (At best) second choice to manage a team ravished and mishandled by MLB in a pandemic shortened season and whatever 2021 was.

Edgy MD Dec 05 2021 08:15 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

Yeah, I think trying to glean patterns of success out of experienced vs. first-timers is going to be futile.

kcmets Dec 05 2021 08:23 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

How's Buck with stranding runners in scoring position?

Frayed Knot Dec 05 2021 10:36 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

=kcmets post_id=82555 time=1638717816 user_id=53] How's Buck with stranding runners in scoring position?

He's against it.

Centerfield Dec 08 2021 08:19 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

I've learned over the years that I have no idea if I'll like a manager until he manages my team. And I see nothing about Buck that I don't like so I'd be fine I guess until I see him manage. I mean, basically if he's not sending dick pics to reporters then I'm good.

kcmets Dec 08 2021 08:50 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

=Centerfield post_id=82675 time=1638976748 user_id=65]I mean, basically if he's not sending dick pics to reporters then I'm good.

The bar has been set!

Lefty Specialist Dec 09 2021 05:54 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Buck won't bat people out of order and won't put up with 'thumbs down' stuff. (And of course no dikpix) None of the other guys particularly stand out for me. Geren, Ausmus, meh. The other guys, also meh. Jim Leyland turns 77 this month and smokes too much so I guess he's out.

Ceetar Dec 09 2021 06:25 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

nothing wrong with thumbs down. He'd be unaware anyway. But will he bat the stupid slappy guy with a .286 OBP second? Will he ignore the best hitter because he doesn't fit the profile? Will he be aware of reverse splits? Those are where the real mistakes are.

Edgy MD Dec 09 2021 08:35 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

He's got a 3,000-game track record to go a long way toward answering those questions.

Centerfield Dec 10 2021 09:13 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

He's also a broadcaster, and there should be plenty of material to gauge his approach to analytics. I don't buy that a guy would be resistant to more information simply because he's old. Has anyone heard Buck on the air?

Frayed Knot Dec 11 2021 03:22 PM Re: The Buck stops here? Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Dec 11 2021 03:27 PM

A Puma-gram in the NY Post talks about how Buck is considered the front-runner as the (reported) six candidates will get whittled down to "two or three" for the next round of interviews this coming week. He also gets the view from Brad Brach (and if you can't trust him, well then I don't think we're on the same page here) who, in addition to being an ex-Met, also played under Buck for 4-1/2 seasons in Baltimore, a view which pretty much coincides with my impression of Buck's assets, starting with his Valentine-ish strength of not going to get beat by being unprepared: -- “He's been the best manager I ever played for — he's so detail oriented,” [Brach also has played for Bud Black, Brian Snitker and Joe Maddon among others] ... There is never a game situation that arises in my eyes that kind of takes him by surprise or that he's not ready for.” He went on to add: “I can kind of talk from only the bullpen perspective, but he was by far the best manager when it came to running a bullpen. He kept everybody healthy. If you look at the guys in that Baltimore bullpen it had nothing to do with our arms when guys got hurt … guys were extremely healthy when they pitched for him.” On how he can come across as not exactly warm and fuzzy until later on when, perhaps like a teenager realizing that his parents maybe aren't so out of touch after all, you realize what he was doing all along: -- “[he] knows how to test guys and I think he finds out what kind of player you are and what he can get out of you by doing certain tests that at the moment you might think is him being a jerk, ... [but] in reality it's just him trying to find out what kind of player he has. It can rub you the wrong way at that time, but I think if you looked back you would say that it was more so for the betterment of the team and yourself than anything else.” Brach on Buck's "old school" rep: -- “I think he was more than willing to listen to all that [analytics] stuff, he just wanted to know where it was coming from, I don't know if it was the front office was having a problem with him asking questions about where it was coming from or what the deal might be, but he got this reputation as this hard-nosed guy who didn't want to listen to anything, where I think honestly it was the complete opposite: He had questions that they didn't want to answer or they weren't sure where it was coming from or they just didn't want questions to be asked, so he just kind of rubbed them the wrong way.”

Frayed Knot Dec 11 2021 03:26 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

=Centerfield post_id=82777 time=1639152828 user_id=65] He's also a broadcaster ... Has anyone heard Buck on the air?

He did a playoff game or two this past October, not a lot to go on just based on that. And, besides, you're playing a role to some degree or another there so it's probably not the best window anyway.

Not the most exciting talker ever, but of course most guys in that job are wind-up toys who never stop yakking so in a way he was refreshing to hear.

roger_that Dec 12 2021 01:33 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

I guess the tradition was started by Stengel, but the Mets seem to have a proclivity for hiring ex-Yankee hacks as their manager. Far as I'm concerned when they do that, they're starting at a disadvantage because I already dislike those guys to begin with: Dallas Green and Willie Randolph started out with two strikes against them as far I was concerned, and they never made their way back to "Meh, he's okay, I guess." There's a world full of guys who don't have any Yankee stink on them at all. Why not give one of those billions of guys a chance?

dinosaur jesus Dec 12 2021 11:05 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

I guess the tradition was started by Stengel, but the Mets seem to have a proclivity for hiring ex-Yankee hacks as their manager. Far as I'm concerned when they do that, they're starting at a disadvantage because I already dislike those guys to begin with: Dallas Green and Willie Randolph started out with two strikes against them as far I was concerned, and they never made their way back to "Meh, he's okay, I guess." There's a world full of guys who don't have any Yankee stink on them at all. Why not give one of those billions of guys a chance? That's some serious grudge-holding. Green and Randolph are the only ex-Yankees they've hired since Yogi, and Green didn't even make it through one full season as their manager. Is that a tradition? And Showalter has had twenty-five years let some of that Yankee stink wash off. I'd make it no more than one strike against him.

Frayed Knot Dec 12 2021 11:11 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

He also told Steinbrenner to fuck off when Georgie tried to re-hire him ... so there's that.

bmfc1 Dec 12 2021 11:19 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/martinonyc/status/1470095528000118784[/TWEET] [TWEET]https://twitter.com/Ken_Rosenthal/status/1468709445320331268[/TWEET] Kirby played 26 games for the 1998 Mets.

Edgy MD Dec 12 2021 11:33 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

=roger_that post_id=82848 time=1639297983 user_id=128]I guess the tradition was started by Stengel, but the Mets seem to have a proclivity for hiring ex-Yankee hacks as their manager.

Casey Stengel, Yogi Berra, and Dallas Green came over with 12 pennants and eight championships among them. They may be a lot of things, good and bad, but I wouldn't call them hacks.

batmagadanleadoff Dec 12 2021 12:09 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Edgy MD wrote: =roger_that post_id=82848 time=1639297983 user_id=128]I guess the tradition was started by Stengel, but the Mets seem to have a proclivity for hiring ex-Yankee hacks as their manager. Casey Stengel, Yogi Berra, and Dallas Green came over with 12 pennants and eight championships among them. They may be a lot of things, good and bad, but I wouldn't call them hacks.

Yeah. Willie Randolph and then Dallas Green, in that exact order, are my two most despised Mets managers ever. But the idea that the Mets shouldn't hire Showalter, because Green and Randolph were Yankees ... let's just say ... isn't very convincing.

ashie62 Dec 12 2021 12:25 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Not Art Howe?

Frayed Knot Dec 12 2021 02:45 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Sherman/Davidoff (NYP) say Joe Espada is a 2nd name still under consideration. Not clear who/if there will be a 3rd.

bmfc1 Dec 12 2021 03:26 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/Joelsherman1/status/1470156873806618637[/TWEET]

MFS62 Dec 12 2021 03:43 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/Joelsherman1/status/1470156873806618637[/TWEET] I guess that means that Brad Ausmus is out of the running. Later

Edgy MD Dec 12 2021 05:27 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Also a tough break for Team McClendon.

Lefty Specialist Dec 13 2021 07:20 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

Showalter's been away from the Yanks for 25 years and managed for other clubs in the interim so I'm ok with his former Yankeeness. Brad Brach certainly sounds like he's auditioning for bullpen coach or something, but it's good to know Buck can handle relievers. Just do it, as the Nike kids say.

Frayed Knot Dec 13 2021 08:18 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

Besides, Buck was a Good Manger for the Yanx. Stengel was an old man hired mostly as a figurehead. Dallas Green appealed to those (particularly Steinbrenner) who thought his tough guy personna was what their club needed, a thought which usually had a short shelf life. iow, both were hired more for their image than their actual managing skills.

seawolf17 Dec 13 2021 09:11 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

Edgy MD wrote: Also a tough break for Team McClendon. Good thing literally nobody is on Team McClendon...?

Edgy MD Dec 13 2021 09:47 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

#TeamMcClendon #TeamMcClendon [FIMG=450]https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2021/12/screen-shot-2021-12-13-at-11.46.23-am.png[/FIMG]

seawolf17 Dec 13 2021 10:00 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

Okay, so ONE photoshopped stock photo model is on Team McClendon.

Edgy MD Dec 13 2021 10:17 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

NOW we're talkin'.

ashie62 Dec 13 2021 12:14 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Buck is a good manager and I liked him on Seinfeld.

Lefty Specialist Dec 13 2021 01:22 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

=ashie62 post_id=82930 time=1639422883 user_id=90] Buck is a good manager and I liked him on Seinfeld.

I'll be concerned if the Mets switch to all-cotton uniforms for the summer this year, though.

Edgy MD Dec 13 2021 01:59 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Two Seinfeld guest actors on the payroll would probably be a league-leading figure.

Frayed Knot Dec 14 2021 06:58 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

Add Mark Teixeira to the pro-Buck chorus. Teixeira played for him for four seasons in Texas “I think Buck Showalter is the smartest man in baseball, and that is not hyperbole,” Teixeira told The Post on Monday. “When you sit down and talk to Buck about the game, he is just so sharp looking at it from all different angles and his record speaks for itself and there is not a more prepared manager as well. You take his intelligence and his preparation and I think he's a great manager. Just look at what he's done with so many franchises, building them up from the bottom.” “Every manager says they have an open-door policy, but Buck truly does,” ... “Buck is not somebody who will walk through the clubhouse all day long kind of bothering guys, but that door is open and any time you need something you go in there and talk to Buck and he's going to do whatever it takes to make the team better.” Also some stuff in that link about Espada who was in the NYY org during Teixeira's final years there.

Marshmallowmilkshake Dec 14 2021 08:43 AM Re: The Buck stops here?

Starting to take on an air of inevitability.

Benjamin Grimm Dec 16 2021 01:07 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1471523647768698891[/TWEET] And then there's this: Baseball Reference wrote: During his playing days he picked up the nickname "Buck" from a minor league manager's comment on his tendency to walk around the clubhouse "buck naked". https://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/Buck_Showalter Buck's full given name is William Nathaniel Showalter.

kcmets Dec 16 2021 01:11 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

The William Nathaniel Stops Here just doesn't have the same juice. It's becoming late Thursday, thought this would be wrapped up by now. Maybe Buck's team wants a merchandising tent or something...

Johnny Lunchbucket Dec 16 2021 01:16 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

The Mets always announce shit on Fridays

kcmets Dec 16 2021 01:22 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

I thought by now there would be 3-4 tweets re-posted here with fun tidbits.

Frayed Knot Dec 16 2021 01:23 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: The Mets always announce shit on Fridays Except when announcing stuff at 3 in the morning for the sole purpose of inconveniencing reporters.

Ceetar Dec 16 2021 02:23 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

Frayed Knot wrote: Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: The Mets always announce shit on Fridays Except when announcing stuff at 3 in the morning for the sole purpose of inconveniencing reporters. people legitimately think they do that.

kcmets Dec 16 2021 02:35 PM Re: The Buck stops here?

They have, but that was the Old Mets.