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IGT Mets vs Giants 4-25-2006 Turn around starts TONIGHT!

mlbaseballtalk Apr 25 2006 08:02 PM

Hey Traschel, GO AFTER Bonds. Go after him like you did in Game 163 in 1998!

Gwreck Apr 25 2006 08:56 PM

Reyes SS LoDuca C Delgado 1B Wright 3B Floyd LF Nady RF Matsui 2B Chavez CF Trachsel P Giants Randy Winn CF Omar Vizquel SS Lance Niekro 1B Barry Bonds LF Moises Alou RF Pedro Feliz 3B Jose Vizcaino 2B Mike Matheny C Jamey Wright P

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 09:44 PM

Steve Trachsel vs. the Giants in his career: W L ERA G GS CG SHO GF SV IP H BFP HR R ER BB IB SO SH SF WP HBP BK 2B 3B GDP ROE 9 4 2.57 19 19 1 0 0 0 126 108 525 9 43 36 51 8 81 9 4 2 3 1 25 2 13 7

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 09:45 PM

Umpires: HP: Bill Miller. 1B: Gerry Davis. 2B: Brian Gorman. 3B: Eric Cooper.

TransMonk Apr 25 2006 09:48 PM

Weather: 54 degrees, cloudy Wind: 14 mph, Out to RF

Zvon Apr 25 2006 10:05 PM

The edge:

Willets Point Apr 25 2006 10:08 PM

Hernandez: "The only way to win on the West Coast is to come out here as a team and win. That'll get the monkey off your back." Huh?

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 10:17 PM

Reyes, ss /1b

Zvon Apr 25 2006 10:18 PM

Reyes makes things happen. Singles, steals, goes to 3rd on an error. Reyes on 3rd, no outs.

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 10:19 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 25 2006 10:20 PM

Reyes, ss e2/\sb /1b

TransMonk Apr 25 2006 10:19 PM

Reyes stays back, sticks his front leg, gets a hit, steals second, on to third on the error, scores on a hit by Paulie. This is how every game should start.

Willets Point Apr 25 2006 10:21 PM

I like first inning runs.

Zvon Apr 25 2006 10:21 PM

TransMonk wrote: This is how every game should start. ...wouldnt that be nice?

Willets Point Apr 25 2006 10:22 PM

Wright v. Wright Wright gets the better of Wright. Unfortunately the wrong Wright got the right Wright to pop up.

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 10:24 PM

Reyes, ss e2/\sb /1b. Lo Duca, c \ /1b. Delgado, 1b /1b Wright, 3b 4

TheOldMole Apr 25 2006 10:25 PM

Edgy -- that's great.

TheOldMole Apr 25 2006 10:26 PM

BTW -- whatever happened to the no facial hair rule?

Zvon Apr 25 2006 10:27 PM

Willets Point wrote: Wright v. Wright Wright gets the better of Wright. Unfortunately the wrong Wright got the right Wright to pop up. lol-I hate when one of my fantasy pitchers goes against the Mets. A Mets win is always the priority. Mets up 1-0 Giants coming to bat.

Willets Point Apr 25 2006 10:30 PM

You just need to bench your fantasy players when they play the Mets.

TransMonk Apr 25 2006 10:32 PM

Nady showing the guns...erases the single by Niekro on a good throw.

Zvon Apr 25 2006 10:32 PM

Nady with the throw---Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Nymr83 Apr 25 2006 10:34 PM

way to get picked off kaz.

Zvon Apr 25 2006 10:34 PM

Kaz! Getting picked off is bad...badbadbadbad.

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 10:35 PM

Willie relaxed the facial hair rule to allow "neatly trimmed goatees" this season.

TransMonk Apr 25 2006 10:36 PM

I hated the facial hair rule. We're not the Yankees. I agree with looking neat, but come on.

Nymr83 Apr 25 2006 10:37 PM

Nice job by Traschel to get a hit and "clear the pitcher," or rather clear the guy who is hitting like a pitcher.

TransMonk Apr 25 2006 10:38 PM

All other NL East games are over and they all lost. It would be a nice night to gain a game on them all since they mean as much now as in September.

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 10:42 PM

Well, that didn't work.

TransMonk Apr 25 2006 10:42 PM

Huh, Barry hit a home run. Guess we should have walked him. SC=50

TransMonk Apr 25 2006 10:43 PM

First player ever to get injured running the bases on a HR?

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 10:45 PM

Gabe Kapler hurt himself badly circling the bases last year. He couldn't complete his circuit and was pulled for a pinch runner.

Zvon Apr 25 2006 10:47 PM

TransMonk wrote: First player ever to get injured running the bases on a HR? he took baby steps.

TransMonk Apr 25 2006 10:51 PM

Hernandez: "I've always said, it's always been a position [first base] for a left-hander." As a right-handed American, I'm pretty offended. Is he saying that I can't play first base?

Zvon Apr 25 2006 10:52 PM

Wow! Chavez with the catch and Alou out tryin to tag. Nice.

Nymr83 Apr 25 2006 10:53 PM

uhoh, Keith in more trouble? SC=100

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 10:53 PM

I think Delgado has nonetheless had a passable career. Chavez bags himself a 40-year-old baserunner.

Nymr83 Apr 25 2006 10:54 PM

Zvon wrote: Wow! Chavez with the catch and Alou out tryin to tag. Nice. Chavez looks good out there... but we still need to PH for him close and late, which means we need a 4th healthy OFer on the roster. ="EdgyDC"]Chavez bags himself a 40-year-old baserunner he'll be the same as a 25 year old rabbit in the books.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 25 2006 11:03 PM

Lots of Action tonight on the basepaths.

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 11:09 PM

Hi, I'm MLB.TV. I'll be stinking tonight.

Willets Point Apr 25 2006 11:16 PM

Question for fellow MLB.TV users: how do you make it full screen? I swear there was a button to do so not so long ago, but I can't find it now.

TransMonk Apr 25 2006 11:18 PM

I right click on the screen and it's an option under zoom.

Centerfield Apr 25 2006 11:22 PM

Why does it seem like every game the pitcher ends up with a streak of double-digit Mets retired in a row...

Willets Point Apr 25 2006 11:25 PM

I'm just glad the Mets broke up the no-hitter/shut-out early tonight.

Zvon Apr 25 2006 11:27 PM

Centerfield wrote: Why does it seem like every game the pitcher ends up with a streak of double-digit Mets retired in a row... Ten in a row by Trax :)

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 11:30 PM

Aflac trivia: Other than Barry Bonds, who is the only player to appear in 100 or more games against the Mets for two different teams?

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 11:31 PM

Pete Rose doesn't quite fit. How about Larry Bowa?

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 11:33 PM

I checked. Neither Bowa nor Rose.

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 11:35 PM

Not Dawson. Turns out to be Joe Torre.

Willets Point Apr 25 2006 11:35 PM

Back on the Wright track.

TransMonk Apr 25 2006 11:38 PM

I thought Dawson immediately...never would have guessed Torre.

Centerfield Apr 25 2006 11:45 PM

Nice catch by Chavez. Good thing the Mets didn't DL Beltran and put Nady out there.

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 11:46 PM

Is Chavez making a lot of difficult plays, or is he making a lot of more routine plays look difficult?

TransMonk Apr 25 2006 11:48 PM

LoDuca guns down Winn stealing...I love the D tonight...saving this game so far.

Nymr83 Apr 25 2006 11:48 PM

LoDuca throws out a runner, in other news they are reporting cold weather in hell.

Zvon Apr 25 2006 11:48 PM

Mark the date- LoDuca throws out a runner! ;)

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 11:50 PM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 25 2006 11:50 PM

KABOOMIE! I suspect I have more ups than Bonds showed on that homerun.

Willets Point Apr 25 2006 11:50 PM

Naaaaaa-DEEP!

Nymr83 Apr 25 2006 11:50 PM

Nady goes KABOOM

Zvon Apr 25 2006 11:50 PM

Nymr83 Apr 25 2006 11:51 PM

Edgy DC wrote: I have more ups than Bonds showed on that homerun. shush, that ball was crushed and nobody would have caught it, wink wink

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 11:53 PM

Matsui likes bouncing the ball up the middle, doesn't he?

Nymr83 Apr 25 2006 11:53 PM

nice bunt, but if Jose Valentin is gonna come up i'd rather they just leave Traschel in.

Centerfield Apr 25 2006 11:54 PM

Why bat Valentin there? Trachsel has a better chance of getting a hit.

Willets Point Apr 25 2006 11:54 PM

"OK Willie you have the board." "I'll take "Moves that can come back and bite me in the ass" Alex!"

Nymr83 Apr 25 2006 11:54 PM

Valentin is out despite it bouncing off a glove. Matsui at 3rd 2-men out for the out-machine, jose reyes

Centerfield Apr 25 2006 11:55 PM

Valentin and his 2 for 20 fails to bust it out of the box costing himself a chance to reach on Vizcaino's bobble.

Nymr83 Apr 25 2006 11:56 PM

bad managing there, i don't bunt a guy over to give valentin and reyes a shot at driving him in, if you're not gonna use woodward/franco/beltran there dont bother bunting.

Centerfield Apr 25 2006 11:56 PM

And Reyes strands Matsui on third. Trachsel out of the game. Willie's in a slump this series.

TransMonk Apr 25 2006 11:58 PM

I have a theory that Willie has something personal against Trachsel. Not using him after he was ready last year, calling him the No. 5 starter, taking him out after 73 pitches when he's pitching a gem. Not that this was the worst decision ever with a struggling offense, but Willie has never, ever done anything to show confidence in Trachsel.

Edgy DC Apr 25 2006 11:58 PM

I just saw a SportsNetNY commercial and puked. Hold it. Still puking.

Centerfield Apr 25 2006 11:59 PM

It gets worse. Wait til Mike dies of cancer and Derek Jeter shows you his garage.

Willets Point Apr 26 2006 12:01 AM

I like the rubber chickens.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 26 2006 12:02 AM

Centerfield wrote: It gets worse. Wait til Mike dies of cancer and Derek Jeter shows you his garage. Then Jeter will have to coach Mike's son's soccer team.

Nymr83 Apr 26 2006 12:02 AM

Double Play! Sanchez gets it done.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 26 2006 12:03 AM

Duaner does it again. And I was scared.

Zvon Apr 26 2006 12:03 AM

come-on David. ya gotta at least stop those. 6-4-3 DP gets us out of it. :)

Willets Point Apr 26 2006 12:03 AM

Edgy DC wrote: I just saw a SportsNetNY commercial and puked. Hold it. Still puking. What am I not missing.

Edgy DC Apr 26 2006 12:03 AM

A big "Phew" for Sanchez. Good job.

Willets Point Apr 26 2006 12:05 AM

Colorado?

Frayed Knot Apr 26 2006 12:06 AM

Edgy DC wrote: Is Chavez making a lot of difficult plays, or is he making a lot of more routine plays look difficult? He's playing a very nice CF. I'm a little late here, but the part I don't like about that last inning was; if you're going to PH for Trax don't give up an out by bunting AND THEN PH for him. One or the other is defendable but the combo doesn't sit well.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 26 2006 12:06 AM

Willets Point Apr 26 2006 12:09 AM

Thanks ump!

Edgy DC Apr 26 2006 12:11 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 26 2006 12:13 AM

Cliff could use some of Wright's luck here.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 26 2006 12:11 AM

Cliff needs to hit a few where the fielders can't make a play.

The Big O Apr 26 2006 12:15 AM

Coved!

Johnny Dickshot Apr 26 2006 12:15 AM

Bang, Pow! Just what the Dickter ordered.

Zvon Apr 26 2006 12:16 AM

Frayed Knot Apr 26 2006 12:16 AM

FISH FOOD!!!! Way to shove that bad call up their asses Cliffy!

Nymr83 Apr 26 2006 12:16 AM

Cliff finds the Cove!

Willets Point Apr 26 2006 12:17 AM

O my!

Frayed Knot Apr 26 2006 12:17 AM

That wasn't just in the cove ... that landed about 100 ft off-shore!

Edgy DC Apr 26 2006 12:18 AM

where only kayakers can make a play. That was a great at-bat.

Centerfield Apr 26 2006 12:18 AM

These West Coast games are always so much fun and worth staying up for.

TransMonk Apr 26 2006 12:19 AM

Good for Cliff. He deserved that after hitting the ball very well the past few games with little to show for it. Up to the bullpen now...I like the chances.

Willets Point Apr 26 2006 12:20 AM

Edgy DC wrote: where only kayakers can make a play. Nope, way past the kayaker.

Edgy DC Apr 26 2006 12:25 AM

Kingmanian popup by Winn, huh? I like being ahead.

Zvon Apr 26 2006 12:26 AM

="Willets Point"]O my! I like :) Sanchez shows he's human allowing a double to Sweeny, but gets out of it. That Nady/Sanchez deal makes Omar look better every inning the season goes on.

Frayed Knot Apr 26 2006 12:26 AM

That kayaker just doesn't go back on a ball very well. That 8th inning single means that Bonds bats in the 9th. Just make sure there's nobody on Mr. Wags.

Edgy DC Apr 26 2006 12:32 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 26 2006 12:32 AM

]That Nady/Sanchez deal makes Omar look better every inning the season goes on. Well, they came in two deals, but point taken. Franco should have been the pinch-hitter instead of Woodward.

Zvon Apr 26 2006 12:32 AM

Centerfield Apr 26 2006 12:33 AM

One down. Bonds will not be the tying run.

Edgy DC Apr 26 2006 12:34 AM

OK, that was Kingmanian.

Zvon Apr 26 2006 12:35 AM

whew--Kaz an adventure in secondbasedom

Centerfield Apr 26 2006 12:37 AM

Game over. Good night folks.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 26 2006 12:37 AM

Nice game, fellas (high five)

Zvon Apr 26 2006 12:37 AM

Wags shuts em down! Mets get a much needed win. :):):):)

Edgy DC Apr 26 2006 12:39 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 26 2006 12:41 AM

Willets Point Apr 26 2006 12:40 AM

Gained a game on the NL East tonight.

TransMonk Apr 26 2006 12:40 AM

Good game all around. Let's take the series tomorrow.

Nymr83 Apr 26 2006 12:44 AM

That picture is great.

Beenso Apr 26 2006 12:48 AM

is this program on SNY serious??? Im all for bikers falling down mountains, but where is the post game?

Beenso Apr 26 2006 12:54 AM

then again, this is probably the worst show i have ever seen.

Edgy DC Apr 26 2006 09:54 AM

Anybody get a measure on Cliff's clout?

Hillbilly Apr 26 2006 10:02 AM

Nice in-game thread CPF. Best place to see what I missed. Remember afternoon game today. lgm!

Rotblatt Apr 26 2006 10:13 AM

TransMonk wrote: I have a theory that Willie has something personal against Trachsel. Not using him after he was ready last year, calling him the No. 5 starter, taking him out after 73 pitches when he's pitching a gem. Not that this was the worst decision ever with a struggling offense, but Willie has never, ever done anything to show confidence in Trachsel. I agree, Monk. It made no sense to me last night, especially given just how bad Valentin's been with the bat this season. I mean, maybe if he had put Beltran in there, but Valentin?

Johnny Dickshot Apr 26 2006 10:24 AM

It was a fishy move but let's not pretend Trax was a better chance of driving in that run.

Edgy DC Apr 26 2006 10:25 AM

It was a 2-1 game with three innngs to go, with a pair of hard throwing and thus-far reliable relievers ready to go in the pen. With a chance to bring the insurance run home, I suspect most managers in 2006 are going to go to a pinch-hitter and the pen there. Yeah, Trachsel's pitch count was low and a case could be made for keeping him. Going with the other case --- veteran pitcher, post op, not a strikeout pitcher, solid relievers, Mets struggling to score runs, runner in scoring position, Barry Bonds due up perhaps twice more --- may suggest that Willie was doing Trax a favor. Yeah, there's an argument against Valentin, but if that move suggests Willie has something against Trachsel, then Joe Torre hated Roger Clemens.

Rotblatt Apr 26 2006 10:32 AM

="Johnny Dickshot"]It was a fishy move but let's not pretend Trax was a better chance of driving in that run. Au contraire . . . 2006 Trachs: .250 AVG/.250 OBP/.375 SLG/.625 OPS Valentin: .095 AVG/.095 OBP/.095 SLG/.190 OPS Even if you generously include Valentin's Spring Training at bats, Trachs is STILL ahead: Valentin 2006 49 AB, .122 AVG/.204 OBP/.184 SLG/.388 OPS Trachs career .168 AVG/.198 OBP/.209 SLG/.407 OPS Kind of embarassing for Valenin, right?

Edgy DC Apr 26 2006 10:35 AM

Also kind of a narrow and selective data set.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 26 2006 10:36 AM

I could look up the batting averages too. No need to insult my point.

Frayed Knot Apr 26 2006 10:48 AM

Trax has a better BA than Cliff at this point too but I'm not PH-ing the former for the latter. And if we're going to beatup Valentin and point out at every opportunity how he's suxxed in his (brief) time here can we at least acknowledge that he has close to 500 XBHs in his career and can switch-hit and play several positions? Look, I want young/cheap/5-tool players on my bench just like anyone else but those seem to be in short supply right now. So before we dump JV in the nearest trashcan and have hurlers hit in his stead, let's realize that if he's here he's going to be used and if he's not we'll need a replacement first -- prefereably one who can fill in at several roles and can swing from the left side with at least the potential of a little pop.

Rotblatt Apr 26 2006 10:50 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: I could look up the batting averages too. No need to insult my point. My apologies. I was trying to insult Valentin's bat. ]Also kind of a narrow and selective data set. Is it? My point is that Valentin is in a deep dark slump who hasn't hit a lick since Spring Training started. Continuing to use him as our primary pinch hitter is generally dumb. Using him to pinch hit for a guy who'd shut down the Giants for 6 innings and had only thrown 73 pitches is specifically dumb. The fact that Trach's career numbers are better than Valentin's last 55 plate appearances is just the final nail in the coffin, IMO.

Edgy DC Apr 26 2006 11:01 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 26 2006 11:04 AM

]Is it? Yes. ]My point is that Valentin is in a deep dark slump who hasn't hit a lick since Spring Training started. I've noticed. The point you articulated was that Trachsel was a better bet to plate a run because his career and brief season OPS was better than Valentin's brief season OPS --- a huge and insulting leap of logic that ignores Valentin's career history and lefty-righty matchups. ]Continuing to use him as our primary pinch hitter is generally dumb. We're not. ]Using him to pinch hit for a guy who'd shut down the Giants for 6 innings and had only thrown 73 pitches is specifically dumb. It was a 2-1 game with the most dangerous hitter since Babe Ruth on the other bench and one homer into his evening. It's defensible. I would have gone perhaps with the actual primary pinch hitter, Julio Franco. ]The fact that Trach's career numbers are better than Valentin's last 55 plate appearances is just the final nail in the coffin, IMO. It's the nail I'm arging against. See the Cliff Floyd analogy.

Rotblatt Apr 26 2006 11:04 AM

Frayed Knot wrote: Trax has a better BA than Cliff at this point too but I'm not PH-ing the former for the latter. That isn't even apples to oranges, it's like apples to orangutans. I didn't suggest that Trachsel pinch hit for anyone. I suggested that we NOT pinch hit Valentin for him because Trachs was pitching very well and Valentin has sucked his year. And the difference between Cliff and Valentin is that Cliff is relatively young and had a great 2005 and furthermore has been swinging the bat well lately. Valentin, on the other hand, is old and had a miserable 2005, managing only the following line: .170 AVG/.326 OBP/.265 SLG/.591 OPS He's displayed no pop since 2004, and is no longer a good defender. His only two defensive positions are 3B and SS, both of which Woody is far more capable at. Listen, I was a fan of the signing. We gambled that he had a little something left, but it's looking like this move didn't pay out. Not a huge deal, but we're going to have to cut bait and upgrade soon.

Rotblatt Apr 26 2006 11:18 AM

It's times like these I think Sal's right. Y'all are batshit crazy. ]I've noticed. The point you articulated was that Trachsel was a better bet to plate a run because his career and brief season OPS was better than Valentin's brief season OPS --- a huge and insulting leap of logic that ignores Valentin's career history and lefty-righty matchups. I apologize for trying to make my point through light-hearted use of hyperbole. It never seems to work. Here, I'll try an equation: Trachsel allowing 1 run on 73 pitches over 6 innings + Valentin slumping (as illustrated by my comparison to Trachsel) = leave Trachsel in. ]We're not. Edgy, Valentin's pinch hit 13 times. Franco's pinch hit 10 times. ]It was a 2-1 game with the most dangerous hitter since Babe Ruth on the other bench and one homer into his evening. It's defensible. I would have gone perhaps with the actual primary pinch hitter, Julio Franco. It's defensible to pinch hit for Trachsel. It is NOT, IMO, defensible to pinch hit JOSE VALENTIN for Trachsel. Regarding your second point, see # of pinch hitting appearances above. ]It's the nail I'm arging against. See the Cliff Floyd analogy. An "analogy" which makes no sense whatsoever, as I never advocated using Trachsel as a pinch hitter instead of Valentin.

Edgy DC Apr 26 2006 11:35 AM

]I apologize for trying to make my point through light-hearted use of hyperbole. It never seems to work. Well, you backed it up with stats. ]Edgy, Valentin's pinch hit 13 times. Franco's pinch hit 10 times. Is the primary pinch-hitter the most frequent one or the one who gets the key slots? If David Weathers gets in more games and throws more innings for the 2002 Mets than Armando Benitez, is he the primary reliever? ]It's defensible to pinch hit for Trachsel. It is NOT, IMO, defensible to pinch hit JOSE VALENTIN for Trachsel. Then fine, he chose the wrong guy. The point we're disagreeing on remains or doesn't remain whether Trachsel is an actual better bet to bring a run home than Valentin. ]An "analogy" which makes no sense whatsoever, as I never advocated using Trachsel as a pinch hitter instead of Valentin. It makes plenty of sense, despite that distinction. Consider it rather thusly: If Floyd was the available pinch-hitter sent up, would he be considered a downgrade from Trachsel? If you're kidding, you're kidding. I don't know why you go all mad and name-calling when you make a statistical argument, and rather than say it's lighthearted hyperbole when it's challenged, you back it up. Are we arguing or not? I don't know. You're serious if you're correct and joking if you're incorrect?

Frayed Knot Apr 26 2006 11:40 AM

I realize you weren't advocating PH-ing Trax for Floyd but you were advocating using a snap-shot of current stats to "prove" who had a better chance of driving in a big run. Based solely on that, Trax had a better chance than Floyd too. I could make arguments both for & against PH-ing in that spot last night. Trax was pitching well and was tough to remove but so is our pen which makes that risk more palatable. As I said in the IGT, what I was against was first giving up the out by having Chavez bunt and then PH-ing after you were down to 2 outs. Hell, send the runner (Matsui I think), hit-&-run, do anything to give yourself 2 chances at it rather than leaving it up to a choice of cold hitter - vs - pitcher as a last resort. ]I was a fan of the [Valentin] signing. We gambled that he had a little something left, but it's looking like this move didn't pay out. Not a huge deal, but we're going to have to cut bait and upgrade soon. Hey, I'm all for upgrades too - wherever and whenever I can find them. But, in the meantime, Valentin is our main - hell ONLY - LH/PH on the bench and you can't just lock him in the bathroom and pledge never to use him.

Rotblatt Apr 26 2006 12:59 PM

Edgy DC wrote: ]I apologize for trying to make my point through light-hearted use of hyperbole. It never seems to work. Well, you backed it up with stats. Well, apparently you don't find "Au contraire" as hilarious as I do. And don't think that the fact that even such an obvious statement as JD's "Well, Valentin was still more likely to drive the run in" is actually questionable because Valentin has been so incredibly crappy since the Spring. ] ]Edgy, Valentin's pinch hit 13 times. Franco's pinch hit 10 times. Is the primary pinch-hitter the most frequent one or the one who gets the key slots? If David Weathers gets in more games and throws more innings for the 2002 Mets than Armando Benitez, is he the primary reliever? I see. So we're saving Franco for the important spots, like when we're up by a run, it's late in the game, there are 2 on with 2 out, and the best hitter since Babe Ruth is batting for the other team? ] ]It's defensible to pinch hit for Trachsel. It is NOT, IMO, defensible to pinch hit JOSE VALENTIN for Trachsel. Then fine, he chose the wrong guy. The point we're disagreeing on remains or doesn't remain whether Trachsel is an actual better bet to bring a run home than Valentin. Maybe that's what your hung up on, but my point all along has been: ]It made no sense to me last night, especially given just how bad Valentin's been with the bat this season. I mean, maybe if he had put Beltran in there, but Valentin? ] ]An "analogy" which makes no sense whatsoever, as I never advocated using Trachsel as a pinch hitter instead of Valentin. It makes plenty of sense, despite that distinction. Consider it rather thusly: If Floyd was the available pinch-hitter sent up, would he be considered a downgrade from Trachsel? Of course not, for the reason I stated here: ]And the difference between Cliff and Valentin is that Cliff is relatively young and had a great 2005 and furthermore has been swinging the bat well lately. ]If you're kidding, you're kidding. I don't know why you go all mad and name-calling when you make a statistical argument, and rather than say it's lighthearted hyperbole when it's challenged, you back it up. Are we arguing or not? I don't know. You're serious if you're correct and joking if you're incorrect? I go "all mad and name-calling" when when such a simple and obvious observation--that it was stupid to pinch hit Valentin for Trachsel last night--somehow turns contentious. I mean, I flat out TOLD you what my point was: ]Using him to pinch hit for a guy who'd shut down the Giants for 6 innings and had only thrown 73 pitches is specifically dumb. which you actually QUOTED right before saying: ]The point you articulated was that Trachsel was a better bet to plate a run because his career and brief season OPS was better than Valentin's brief season OPS --- a huge and insulting leap of logic that ignores Valentin's career history and lefty-righty matchups. Read more, post less, Edgy.