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Skipping Zambrano in the rotation.

Gwreck Apr 23 2006 06:16 PM

vs. the Giants: Mon - Glavine Tue - Trachsel Wed - Bannister Thursday is an off day, before we go to Turner Field. The off day lets us skip Zambrano, with the rotation setting up vs. the Braves as: Fri - Pedro Sat - Glavine Sun - Trachsel I sure hope they decide to do this.

Nymr83 Apr 23 2006 06:17 PM

I would be using a 4+1 to begin with, but particularly with our rotation setting up the way it is for the bBraves you almost MUST skip him.

vtmet Apr 23 2006 07:32 PM

skipping Zambrano in the rotation? Or Eliminate Zambrano from the rotation, and from the roster? He ain't getting any better...at this point of time, I would trust Julio with an important game on the line than marshmallow brain...

HahnSolo Apr 23 2006 07:37 PM

He's had three starts. Before start one, Willie made it clear to M & MD that Trachsel was his fifth starter (!), implying that Victor was his #3 guy. I doubt after three outings he's going to start skipping over Zambrano.

Nymr83 Apr 23 2006 07:43 PM

So we're gonna let him open against the Braves instead of Pedro? yeah, way to set the tone for the series guys...

HahnSolo Apr 23 2006 07:54 PM

Hey, I'm just reporting what I heard. If it were up to me he'd be starting for Norfolk on Friday.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 23 2006 07:57 PM

WWSB has since backpedaled pretty furiously on that M&MD statement, which was made too much of then and now. Zamby had to be inserted somewhere. Schedule now allows for him to be skipped but if he isn't I'm sure it's not because he's 4 or 5 or whatever but because they've got an interest in getting him straightened out.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 23 2006 09:26 PM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: WWSB has since backpedaled pretty furiously on that M&MD statement, which was made too much of then and now. . More CYA and PR BS. It ain't like MD didn't give him a zillion chances to back off it then: "B-b-ut Willie, geez, ya gotta think Traschel's had some pretty solid years for you, ya know--" "Shove it, Chris. He's my number 5 guy. Cinco. The next thing to being sent into the pen. Five-o." "But what's Zambrano ever done to deserve--" "He's got priority over Traschel in my rotation, dumbo. If I'm skipping anyone, I'm skipping Trachsel--" "That seems unfair, WIllie--" "Live with it, Chris--That's what I think"bbbyyy IOW, some PR flak got to him afterwards and talked him into retracting his strongly worded, clearly expressed beliefs. And you're going with the cleaned up version? That's what he believes.

Nymr83 Apr 23 2006 09:43 PM

what are you bitching about? i don't give a rat's ass what willie says to M&MD, i care about what he DOES and he hasn't yet treated Traschel like a "5th starter" this year.

heep Apr 23 2006 10:48 PM

How much time are they going to give Zambrano, and how much of their interest in straightening him out is based on the trade? Why does he have so much slack? If my opinion means anything, I do not think Zambrano will ever be anything more than a 12-12 pitcher, at best. Simply put, I cannot stand watching this fucking guy pitch. Trade him, I want to watch Pelfrey this summer.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 23 2006 11:00 PM

="Nymr83"]what are you bitching about? i don't give a rat's ass what willie says to M&MD, i care about what he DOES and he hasn't yet treated Traschel like a "5th starter" this year. Except for skipping his turn in the rotation, you're 100% correct. If you pay attention to the games, baseball makes more sense. Try it and see.

heep Apr 23 2006 11:43 PM

After reading Marty Noble's article about Sunday's game, I sense an underlying skeptisism of Zambrano's ability, future, and lack of respect his teammates have of him. Actually its pretty clear. I wonder who this anonymous Met is who is speaking out against Zambrano. Its not the first time I have read an anonymous, negative quote of Zambrano. Who is it?

Nymr83 Apr 23 2006 11:53 PM

="Bret Sabermetric"] ="Nymr83"]what are you bitching about? i don't give a rat's ass what willie says to M&MD, i care about what he DOES and he hasn't yet treated Traschel like a "5th starter" this year. Except for skipping his turn in the rotation, you're 100% correct. If you pay attention to the games, baseball makes more sense. Try it and see. i thought that was rain-related, i apologize if it wasnt

Frayed Knot Apr 24 2006 12:52 AM

Trachsel didn't have a start "skipped"; rather his 2nd start was delayed 2 days in order to get Zambrano his 1st which had been postponed due to his ST hammy injury plus a bout with the flu. And, unless the Mets start skipping the 5th started position - something they haven't done in many years - what "number" starter is assigned to each pitcher is vurtually meaningless.

Nymr83 Apr 24 2006 07:05 AM

well yeah, nut you've gotta ignore all that because it doesnt jivew with Bret's fantasy world where the Mets are always wrong.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 24 2006 08:00 AM

It's very simple--Trachsel had his start delayed so Zambrano could get his start in on schedule. That's what M & MD were asking about, and that's what WWSB agreed he was doing to Ttrachsel, treating him like a 5th starter by jerking him in and out of the rotation. All the rain delays, and all the "no fifth starters", and all the "Bret's Met-hating agenda" crap, and all the PR spin in the world won't change that for a second.

Centerfield Apr 24 2006 10:46 AM

Those are some damning quotes in Marty Noble's article. I have no patience whatsoever with Zambrano but quotes like that aren't going to help. The thing I'm starting to wonder is whether his problems really are mental, or a product of pitch selection, or whether his problem is that he's just not that good. Seems to me we criticize him for not throwing strikes, but when he does throw strikes, they get hit a long way.

Yancy Street Gang Apr 24 2006 11:05 AM

I think that we, the Mets front office, the manager, the coaches, and the fans, have to put Scott Kazmir aside and evaluate Victor Zambrano for who he is, and not through the spectrum of how he got here. If he can't get the job done, he should be easily disposable; there's no large or long-term financial commitment to him. It's possible, though that he really is one of the five best starters currently available to them, at least if you accept the notion that Heilman is needed in the bullpen. If that's the case, then they ought to be thinking about finding someone better. I wouldn't give up on him just yet, but I wouldn't give him a long rope either. The Mets have been winning a good proportion of the games that Zambrano hasn't been starting, so they can afford a little slack for the time being. Maybe Zambrano will right himself, and at least become the moderately and occasionally effective pitcher he was last year. If (more likely, when) the division tightens up, which will probably be soon, Zambrano will have to pitch better. If not, you have to find alternatives. Maybe Heilman moves into the rotation. Maybe Lima comes up and holds down the fort until Pelfrey is ready. Maybe someone else at AAA can get a try. But keeping Zambrano in the rotation because of the 2004 Kazmir deal shouldn't be an option. And it doesn't even serve a CYA purpose for the Mets. Every time Victor takes the mound and fails, we're reminded of Kazmir. If he was gone, that reminder would be gone, too. Yes, the fans will still bitch and moan over the deal; they still haven't gotten over Jim Fregosi or Juan Samuel, but at least there won't be fresh salt in the wound every five days.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 24 2006 11:05 AM

The troubling thing is all the HRs he's coughed up already. For all his control & baserunner issues, he was stingy with the longball last year -- which was fortunate because there probably isn't a pitcher out there against whom HRs will be so expensive.

soupcan Apr 24 2006 11:22 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: I think that we, the Mets front office, the manager, the coaches, and the fans, have to put Scott Kazmir aside and evaluate Victor Zambrano for who he is, and not through the spectrum of how he got here. This was never an issue with me. Good trade, bad trade doesn't matter. What's done is done and you can't change it. Besides the fact that the jury is still way out on this trade. Kazmir looks like a nice young pitcher but I don't think the HOF should start commissioning his plaque just yet. If the Mets are pitching Zambrano simply to justify a bad trade by a GM that isn't here anymore that's pretty silly and I'd like to believe that the decision-makers here are a bit more intelligent than that. It's not like Kazmir was Tom Seaver and the fans are up in arms about it either. Zambrano pitched well for Tampa Bay no? He was a solid starter for them and he's even had his moments here. It's still April, I'm not tossing this guy on the woodplie just yet. Give him a few more starts. Whenever I see a pitcher starting slow I think of John Tudor in 1985. He opened the season 1-7. He went 20-1 the rest of the way and finished second in the Cy Young to some bad seed flash-in-the-pan whose name escapes me.

smg58 Apr 24 2006 11:52 AM

Right, I don't see the need to hit the panic button on Zambrano just yet. He had enough good starts for us last year to earn a little bit of slack. It's easy to get mad at Zambrano because of the awful deal that brought him here, but three starts don't make a season.

heep Apr 24 2006 11:52 AM

Its not only that he loses, but he makes mistakes that would be seriously reprimanded on a college level. His pitch selection and control is unacceptable.

vtmet Apr 24 2006 02:03 PM

Centerfield wrote: Seems to me we criticize him for not throwing strikes, but when he does throw strikes, they get hit a long way. I think it's more about when he throws the strikes and when he throws the balls...he's afraid to throw a guy like Dave Roberts a strike, putting a pitcher and a weak hitter on the bases for the meat of the order...in the first, with an 0-2 count to a rookie, he grooves a nothing pitch right down the middle instead of setting up the rookie...and he even was ahead of Giles, shakes off LoDuca several times, loads the count and serves up a fat meatball to the most dangerous guy in their lineup... Just like in the Atlanta game, the most dangerous guy in the lineup (Andruw Jones), the guy that should almost be pitched around, he gives up 2 HRs to...and the guys in front of Jones, that are less dangerous, but you don't want on the bases for Jones, he walked all 3 of them...

metsmarathon Apr 24 2006 02:12 PM

its a minor point... but is he afraid, or just unable, to throw strikes to dave roberts, et al.?

Vic Sage Apr 24 2006 02:18 PM

whats the matter with you, mm? haven't you learned by now that any athlete's failure is an indication of his flawed character? don't you listen to sports talk, sports reporters and sports announcers?

Rotblatt Apr 24 2006 04:44 PM

If Julio's turnaround is legit, I think sending Zambrano to AAA and moving Heilman back into the rotation is the way to go. Zambrano's just baffling. Zambrano from April 2005 - July 2005 3.78 ERA, 1.35 WHIP, 0.86 H/IP, 0.46 HR/9, 4.40 BB/9, 5.70 K/9, 1.30 K/BB Excellent H/IP. And not at all unusual for him--he posted H/IP of .84 in 2004 & .88 in 2003. Excellent HR/9. Likely an abberation, however (0.91 in 2004, 1.00 in 2003). Bad control, but a career best for him up to that point. Career low in K/9. Nonetheless, a highly effective four months. You'd expect his HR/9 to rise, and with it, his ERA--maybe up to the low 4's or so. Here's what followed. Zambrano from August 2005 - present: 63.7 IP, 6.08 ERA, 1.70 WHIP, 1.24 H/IP, 1.55 HR/9, 4.10 BB/9, 6.5 K/9, 1.59 K/BB H/9 skyrocketed. HR/9 skyrocketed. His control & K's got better, but it's like overnight he became hittable and HR prone. Bizarre. I've mentioned this elsewhere, but it's like he sacrificed stuff for control and just got burned, then made zero adjustments to it. And Spring Training 2006 completely dovetails with that assessment as well: 13.7 IP, 4.61 ERA, 1.54 WHIP, 1.32 H/IP, 1.98 HR/9, 1.98 BB/9, 5.27 K/9, 2.67 K/BB That boy just ain't right. Is he injured? Fucked up in the head? At this point, I'd just be happy if he were able to get back to being an average pitcher.

abogdan Apr 25 2006 07:37 AM

From today's Post: ]Even though the Mets don't play Thursday, Randolph said Victor Zambrano will not be skipped in the rotation. But Minaya indicated that Zambrano (9.64 ERA) has to get going.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 25 2006 07:39 AM

That sounds like a pretty reasonable take to me.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 25 2006 07:42 AM

Johnny Dickshot wrote: That sounds like a pretty reasonable take to me. Eminently so. I'd say he's got to get that ERA below 8.00 before July, or we'll be thinking VERY hard about skipping his turn once in a while, when circumstances demand it.

abogdan Apr 25 2006 07:42 AM

Except the part about Victor Zambrano pitching this weekend against Atlanta instead of Brian Bannister. That part doesn't make sense.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 25 2006 07:51 AM

Yes, he'll get straightened out by not working. Maybe if you guys close your eyes and wish real hard he'll just disappear.

abogdan Apr 25 2006 07:53 AM

I'll click my heels twice.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 25 2006 08:09 AM

Seems to me that Peterson's taking his sweet time about finding those ten minutes to straighten Victor out. Doesn't he realize that the season is wasting? Can't he take a shower instead of a bath one time, or something? I mean, Jeez, it's only ten lousy minutes.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 25 2006 08:25 AM

That remark stopped being funny... uh 10 minutes ago. har har har

Bret Sabermetric Apr 25 2006 08:39 AM

I don't know, I was thinking about it for the title of my forthcoming book about the Mets of the 21st Century: "JUST TEN MINUTES: The Mets' Tantalizing Closeness to the playoffs 2001-2008" (I'm building in a little lead time for the actual writing and stuff.) Even if it could be demonstrated that the phrase is wholly fictional and malicious, doesn't it illustrate something crucial about the Mets' philosophy of arrogance, though? They have problems, and they acquire more, in the firm conviction that they're not so bad, or that they're easily fixed, or that this or that that, and it turns out they're, well, problems. Need to be addressed, on a level far more fundamental than they're willing to, and these fundamental causes need to be addressed AS SOON AS THEY FIND OUT that they're not problems with a quick-fix. Zambrano and Matsui are only the two biggest and most obvious examples of such flawed players acquired at great expense whose faililngs the Mets have refused to address as more than a hot streak away from disappearing.

Gwreck Apr 26 2006 05:46 PM

From Adam Rubin's Daily News Mets Blog: ]More Grease Interesting developments at the park today, and I'm not talking about the fire. Willie Randolph sounded before the game like he's greasing the wheels for Steve Trachsel to take Sunday's start in Atlanta, further pushing Victor Zambrano back. The best bet is Zambrano starts the homestand opener the following day against the Nationals.

DocTee Apr 26 2006 11:08 PM

http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060426&content_id=1419937&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym Zambrano skipped, Trax given vote of confidence-- pigs fly.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 27 2006 01:45 AM

It's the right choice, though Willie has now provided yet more evidence that every word out of his mouth that's not backed by action is to be regarded as utterly irrelevant. He lacks the courage of his convictions, having no convictions to begin with. I'd hate to be inside his head--what a sad excuse for a major league manager he is.

Elster88 Apr 27 2006 08:20 AM

I don't know about that. He tells the media to "f--- off" in so many words, and does what he says he will. The problem I have with him is that many a-time I think he makes the wrong choice and sticks with it. It seems as if he does what he says he will but he proves it by being stubborn about the wrong decisions.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 27 2006 08:42 AM

How is this "doing what he says he will"? He's doing what he has beliigerently insisted he will not do: bump Zambrano from the rotation for Trachsel. My point is, why not just say, every time he's asked for the last few weeks, "As of now, we're sticking to our original plans for the rotation. Obviously Victor can't stay in the rotation all season if he has an ERA like the tab for an aircraft carrier, but I'm hoping he'll improve soon. When I have something to announce, I'll let you know" instead of "frappuchinoing off" the media (that what "f--- off" means right?) by giving them a lot of misleading and assertive nonsense about Zambrano's lock on the rotation spot. I suppose it doesn't matter much, and it amuses some people to have a manager so overtly hostile to questioning, but it's just not smart to antagonize the media endlessly, IMO. Willie might discover he needs them, at some point, to hang on to his job a few extra weeks.

metsmarathon Apr 27 2006 08:59 AM

its "FrappuccinoŽ" willie is definitely too hostile towards the media, almost dismissive at times as to their desire to get good info, and to the effect it has on the fans' perceptions of him, and the team.