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Beltran not on DL: major fuckup?

Who do you blame?

Beltran himself	4 votes
WWSB	1 votes
Omar	5 votes
medical staff	2 votes
No one--just bad luck	5 votes

Bret Sabermetric Apr 25 2006 06:54 AM

WTF is he not doing on the DL? He's batted thrice in the last nine games, during which the Mets have gone 4-5. You don't think maybe they would have benefitted from having an extra outfield bat, and maybe copped an extra win or two? Is he really going to perform at such a star level over the next 6 games that it compensates for having no outfielder for over a week? Whose fuckup is this? Do you blame Beltran for minimizing his own description of the discomfort he felt, and so misleading the Mets? Willie, for giving Beltran the three ABs and thus extending the date as of which he could have been retroactively DLed? Omar, for not making the call to adjust the roster? The medical staff for improperly diagnosing Beltran's symptoms? No One, the cause of five years' bad luck around these parts? Or is this simply no fuckup at all, just the way life be's sometime, when the cotton is high, livin' is easy, and all's right in the blue-and-orange world?

Yancy Street Gang Apr 25 2006 07:04 AM

Beltran. He should have learned his lesson from last year. I understand that he wants to play, but he should be smart enough to look at the big picture. I'd put him on the DL today, even if he's reporting some progress.

KC Apr 25 2006 07:24 AM Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Apr 25 2006 07:44 AM

A case can be made against Willie, medical, and Beltran - it's too close to vote and I don't want to hear vote on how stupid we the Mets are today anyways. I abstain, courteously.

Rotblatt Apr 25 2006 07:30 AM

I'm not 100% sure who makes these calls--if it's Willie or Omar--but I went with Willie. Beltran's apparently not going to start until Friday at the earliest. We COULD have had Diaz up here for the last 10 days, which would have meant Chavez out of the lineup (Nady could have played CF). There's a world of difference between Diaz & Chavez offensively. Beltran, meanwhile, would've been back on May 1, missing, at a maximum, 3 games and 3 PH appearances. This was a stupid move. Speaking of which, Willie needs to start pinch hitting for Chavez late in games. Nady can play CF, and Chavez is a liability.

abogdan Apr 25 2006 07:41 AM

It's Omar's call. After Carlos said he only felt 60% before the road trip, he should have been retro-ed. Yes, you'd risk not being able to use a healthy Beltran for a few games while he waited for the 15 days to expire, but you'd have a full 25-man roster available to you, which the Mets haven't had now for nearly two weeks.

cooby Apr 25 2006 07:45 AM

Can anybody tell me why the shortest DL has to be 15 days? No wonder they fight against being on it. Why can't it be 7 or 10 days, with 3 day options at the end? It can't be because of the expense of bringing a guy up from the minors and sending him back; they have money for plane tickets, I'm sure.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 25 2006 07:49 AM

cooby wrote: Can anybody tell me why the shortest DL has to be 15 days? Basically, because a shorter DL can be abused. Someone has the flu, and will miss the next three or four games, you'd go "Hell, let's just put him on the DL now, get a sub up for a few days, make sure he recovers from the flu, and then he'll miss the next three games after that but some of those are against a lefty, so it's no big loss." After a while they'd be using the DL to give guys a break during the season, to sit guys down for batting slumps, etc., which is not the purpose of a DL. It's got to hurt (figuratively) to put someone on the DL. With a pitcher, it's even more severe. If you had a 7 day DL, you'd be putting starting pitchers on the DL six or seven times a season, every time they threw 120 pitches, probably, just to get them some extra rest and get a fresh arm you can use in tomorrow's game while they're resting.

metsmarathon Apr 25 2006 09:16 AM

if i'm to "blame" anybody, perhaps i "blame" carlos. i know from experience that when you piss off a hammy, or other major leg muscle, that they give you mixed signals. they feel fine, until they don't, and you feel like a tool sitting around doing nothing with a leg that feels perfectly fine. a medical staff (and manager) is really only as good as the patient. an MRI can show something, or it can show nothing. even if an MRI shows something, it may not be the cause of pain, and even if an MRI shows nothing, there may still be a cause for pain. if the patient underreports the level of pain (be it a high tolerance of pain, normalcy creep, wishful thinking, or willful denial of pain), there's little the medical staff and manager can do. so it's probably carlos' fault, tho i'm sure a case could be made for the medical staff and/or willie to pressure carlos into being extra cautious and going on teh DL. in light of last year, carlos should know better, but if his body had been telling him that he's good to go, but really wasn't, whose fault is that? can we just blame his hamstring?

Rockin' Doc Apr 25 2006 09:17 AM

Seems there is ample blame to share on this one. After getting input form the injured player and medical staff, I believe it would ultimately be the GM's call. Willie's role would be more as to who may be most helpful in filling in for the injured player during his time on the DL. This Beltran injury has been poorly handled in my opinion and it has definitely hamstrung the team. Did I just type that? Damn that was bad.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 25 2006 09:54 AM

Carlos is leading with 3 votes out of 7. Shall we start warming up our booing muscles?

Frayed Knot Apr 25 2006 10:30 AM

The med staff's job is to examine the patient and evaluate what - if anything - is wrong. They did that - confirmed via an MRI - and found no injury: no tears, no fraying, etc. Beyond that there's not much [u:7f800b43b3]they[/u:7f800b43b3] can do so it's up to the other parties involved; meaning Pedro ... I mean Willie, Carlos & Omar, to project how it's going to feel 2, 4, 8, or 10 days down the line. I suspect what happened is that they initially thought it would only a day-to-day thing. The Diaz/Feliciano swap happened just the day before so the only way to bring him back was to DL him which they likely thought was risky seeing as how it would scratch him from the SD, SF & (most importantly) [u:7f800b43b3]TWO[/u:7f800b43b3] Atl series - leaving them in a position of having a healthy Carlos sitting on his ass all that time if it did turn out to require only 2-3 days. Beltran, meanwhile, seems very skittish after last year's (unrelated) leg problem and doesn't want to come back until he's sure it's 100%.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 25 2006 10:34 AM

And the rationale for giving him his three at bats, making impossible a retroactive DL visit is....? Who knew? Shit happens? Oh, if only this were a perfect world? What, you mean you CAN'T send Beltran to the DL if he's had 3 ABs? Get me that damned rule book!

Yancy Street Gang Apr 25 2006 10:36 AM

I think the best way to make sure is to put him on the DL right now. Go forward for the next two weeks with a starting outfield of Floyd and Diaz in the corners and Nady in center. Late innings with a lead, sit Diaz, put Chavez in center, and move Nady to right. We'd have Beltran back in mid-May, well rested and hopefully fully healed. (And forget the minor league rehab nonsense.)

Frayed Knot Apr 25 2006 10:38 AM

Diaz sprained an ankle in Norfolk and is currently unavailable -- not sure for how long.

Yancy Street Gang Apr 25 2006 10:40 AM

Milledge then.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 25 2006 10:41 AM

Omar pulls into a tie for the lead in this poll's voting. Carlos 3, Omar 3, Willie a surprising 1 vote. Do you people really doubt that if he'd kept Carlos on the bech instead of pinchhitting him, he'd be on the DL by now?

Centerfield Apr 25 2006 10:42 AM

You're missing an option for all of the above. Beltran for not realizing his injury was as severe as it was. Willie for being an idiot and using him when he wasn't fully healed. Omar for not DL-ing him. And the medical staff for not being able to ascertain the severity of the injury. I feel like they are not putting Beltran on the DL because do to so now would be to admit they really fucked up by not putting him on nine days ago. It's like Zambrano....let's continue to deny making a mistake and hurt our team further in the process.

Yancy Street Gang Apr 25 2006 10:42 AM

Oh, geez, am I going to have that grinning photo of John Franco hanging over my head for the next 200 posts? I may have to have an mlbtalk-style meltdown. If I start 2,200 threads with single-letter titles, I'll be past the default avatar range. I'd better start typing and clicking.

Bret Sabermetric Apr 25 2006 10:44 AM

You're suggesting a major CYA policy here? I'm with you on that, of course, as I think the Mets' primary question on almost any issue is "Will this make us look bad?" rather than "Fuck who gets blamed for this screwup, how do we fix it so it stays fixed?". But almost no one buys into that line of thinking.

86-Dreamer Apr 25 2006 10:46 AM

Every statement I have read from Beltran has expressed his desire not to come back too quickly and repeat his mistake from last year. Omar should have been able to read those pretty obvious signs. His decision to send down Diaz while Beltran's staus was in doubt was terrible. Omar is responsible for the roster and has to take the blame for this mistake.

Centerfield Apr 25 2006 10:53 AM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: You're suggesting a major CYA policy here? I'm with you on that, of course, as I think the Mets' primary question on almost any issue is "Will this make us look bad?" rather than "Fuck who gets blamed for this screwup, how do we fix it so it stays fixed?". But almost no one buys into that line of thinking. No question about it. If he hadn't been used in the San Diego series, he would have been DL'ed. If he had been hurt initially this weekend and was certain to be out the Giants series, I believe he would have been DL'ed. (We would have heard stuff like "We're not sure the severity, but at this point in the season, and in light of his struggles last year, we're erring on the side of caution"). After not DL-ing him initially, and using him in San Diego, the Mets can only pray that Beltran is healthy on Friday and does something worthwhile against the Braves. That way management can say "See? Good thing we didn't DL him, he would have been unavailable until Monday."

Frayed Knot Apr 25 2006 10:54 AM

* The Diaz/Feliciano swap occured first - before Beltran's hammy acted up. * I don't see how the med staff takes a hit here. Once they diagnose how there's no injury it's up to the player to assess how bad it is. They can't rate "soreness", or know how it feels if/when he runs, or how his head feels worrying over whether it's going to hurt if he pushes it. Either Beltran truly thought it would be better in a day or two of it first happening or he did a really poor job of communicating what he felt to Willie/Omar.

Yancy Street Gang Apr 25 2006 10:55 AM

I say let Keith Hernandez manage the team. As we've seen, he says what he thinks. That would be refreshing after the last three years.

Centerfield Apr 25 2006 10:57 AM

According to ESPN, and my memory, Feliciano was called up on the 17th before the start of the Braves series. Beltran first sat out complaining of the hamstring on the 16th.

Centerfield Apr 25 2006 10:58 AM

Yancy Street Gang wrote: I say let Keith Hernandez manage the team. As we've seen, he says what he thinks. That would be refreshing after the last three years. At least there'd be no chicks in the dugout.

abogdan Apr 25 2006 11:02 AM

]The Diaz/Feliciano swap occured first - before Beltran's hammy acted up. I'm pretty sure this is incorrect. I remember Elster88 commenting that it was a stupid move to send down Diaz at the same time one of your starting outfielders has suddenly become unavailable. Then Floyd got hurt that night and made the decision to send Diaz down look even worse.

Frayed Knot Apr 25 2006 12:13 PM

Well, if that's the case then it shows that they thought the hammy was no big deal when it happened - or at least not as immediate a problem as the extra pitcher they wanted for this stretch.

Nymr83 Apr 25 2006 01:26 PM

]After a while they'd be using the DL to give guys a break during the season, to sit guys down for batting slumps, etc., which is not the purpose of a DL. kinda like the NBA?

MFS62 Apr 25 2006 06:33 PM

This just in. On the 5:40 ESPN radio update, they said that Beltran will sit out tonight's game because of a "groin injury". Didn't the original reports say it was his hamstring? Aren't those two things 180 degrees away from each other on the human body? What gives? Misdiagnosis by the medical staff, or doesn't Carlos know his crotch from the back of his leg? Later

TransMonk Apr 25 2006 06:40 PM

ESPN 20 minute radio updates aren't always the most accurate reports. It's entirely possible someone misread or made a mistake while writing the script.

cooby Apr 25 2006 08:17 PM

Maybe not, but if the bottom line is he's not playing again, I think I might start booing.

abogdan Apr 26 2006 08:42 AM

Who do you boo if Beltran isn't playing? Endy Chavez? Sandy Alomar when he brings out the lineup card? The trainer?

cooby Apr 26 2006 08:43 AM

"I might start booing" = "I don't boo now"