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Willie - Billy - Barry

Frayed Knot Apr 26 2006 11:06 PM

Shoulda walked him, or were correct in pitching to him? Obviously this is talking about today's (Wed) game in the 9th. Recap: Runner on 2nd, 2 outs, 2 run game The case for walking him: * He's the most likely guy on the planet to tie the game * Felipe was almost certainly unable to pinch-run for him once he was on meaning he'd have a tough time scoring on a long hit * Well, he's Barry The case for pitching to him: * He was the tying run but not the winning run * Putting the tying run on brings the winning run to the plate and you could lose w/one swing of the bat * Neikro on deck - a RHB - has shown decent power in his brief ML career * We had our main guy in there, a lefty-on-lefty matchup, and a guy against whom Barry had poor numbers (2 for 12 I believe)

Centerfield Apr 26 2006 11:09 PM

It's April...we still don't know how much he has left. He's only the tying run. I wanted to see how Billy stood up against him. Even after he tied the game, I still thought it was the right move.

Edgy DC Apr 26 2006 11:11 PM

I'm walking him.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 26 2006 11:15 PM

Pitching to him was the right move. The worst he coulda done was tie it. No excuse if Neikro goes deep with 2 on. And not that it was designed this way, nor do I think there was buck-passing going on, but I think in a weird sense Wright's error made it more OK to pitch to him, since Wags & WWSB had a Free Pass if he put one over the fence, since it was all DW's fault anyway.

soupcan Apr 26 2006 11:17 PM

I wanted him pitched to the whole series. I hate him - challenge the cheater!

Rotblatt Apr 26 2006 11:52 PM

Right call, for JD's reasons above.

DocTee Apr 26 2006 11:57 PM

Wallk him. Lance Niekro's no Barry Bonds.

smg58 Apr 26 2006 11:59 PM

Wagner vs. Niekro was an infinitely more favorable matchup. I think Willie overcompensated after being too careful on Monday.

Edgy DC Apr 27 2006 12:06 AM

I think maybe too yeah. But I look at it this way also. Maybe I'm too seduced by Mr. Openbase. If the Mets are up by one with Barry up and nobody on (effectively sticking us with the same choices), do I pitch to him? Probably, my instinct is more pro-pitch than pro-walk, though the sit is virtually the same. I think the sad ugly answer is I pitch around him and then berate my pitcher for not throwing the funk if he gets taken. Which strategy consitutes playing for the win on the road? Which is playing to win and which is playing not to lose?

Bret Sabermetric Apr 27 2006 01:41 AM

I think out of respect for Babe Ruth and every non-steroids-abuser, Bonds should be either walked or HBPed every single time he gets up to the plate, in any circumstance, even with the bases loaded and score tied in the bottom of the 9th. He's made a mockery of honest baseball, and honest baseball needs to make a priority of getting him to quit the game before he moves past Ruth. I want to see him never get another basehit again ever.

Yancy Street Gang Apr 27 2006 06:11 AM

I would've pitched to him.

Iubitul Apr 27 2006 06:23 AM

Bret Sabermetric wrote: I think out of respect for Babe Ruth and every non-steroids-abuser, Bonds should be either walked or HBPed every single time he gets up to the plate, in any circumstance, even with the bases loaded and score tied in the bottom of the 9th. He's made a mockery of honest baseball, and honest baseball needs to make a priority of getting him to quit the game before he moves past Ruth. I want to see him never get another basehit again ever. Speaking strictly on baseball strategy, I would have pitched to him. On every other level, I like Bret's thought here.

MFS62 Apr 27 2006 07:31 AM

I'm with Bret on the strategic level, but with those who said pitch to him on the tactical level. Bret, I really like the idea about all HBP, all the time. Later

Bret Sabermetric Apr 27 2006 07:52 AM

MFS62 wrote: I'm with Bret on the strategic level, but with those who said pitch to him on the tactical level. Bret, I really like the idea about all HBP, all the time. Later Yeah, I meant to prioritize the HBP, what with him setting up in the strike zone and all. The real question is where to aim: my first thought was "Oh, the Mr. Met-sized head, that's a target. Even a dumbass like Bonds will figure out eventually that getting Piazzaed every time up can't be healthy," but then I realized that if you aim just behind the knees, by the time the signal goes from the brain to the body to move, he'll be moving those knees right into the path of the baseball much of the time. Since Bonds has shown that it's possible to play baseball without a functioning head but not without functioning knees, that's where I'd want to aim.

metsmarathon Apr 27 2006 08:34 AM

i'm not saying that i'd like to see met pitchers throw at the guy each and every time with the intent of hitting him - a) because that's just mean, and i'm far too enlightened for such things, and b) more importantly because eventually it'd result in the suspension of many a met pitcher - but throwing down around the legs, where he's not wearing any armor, and has to then move said balky knees quickly and awkwardly, would not only reduce his effectiveness at hte plate and give the pitcher back the inside part of the plate, it would also hurt like hell, and give him very much what he deserves. so, i mostly agree with bret. throwing at him is just thuggery (of course i'm exaggertaing my dislike for such a move. on principle, i dislike it. in reality, i love it). throwing terribly near him, now that i like. also the speculation on BBTonite is that he can't get around on the inside ball anymore. so if you miss going after the knees/body, and leave it closer to the plate, its not yet proven to be likely to hurt you this year.

sharpie Apr 27 2006 09:51 AM

We were getting killed last year during a little league game I was coaching . The other team's biggest hitter who had already hit two home runs was coming up and first base was open. I went out to the mound and told the pitcher to walk him. The 13-year-old pitcher said "why don't I just hit him -- it's faster." Hard to argue with that logic but I advised against it and walked the batter.

Elster88 Apr 27 2006 10:03 AM

Intentional walks in Little League?

Bret Sabermetric Apr 27 2006 10:05 AM

mm has reasonably expressed a form of what I think would actually work. If you're going to be walking him half the time, why not just pitch him impossibly tight and low? You'll HBP him half the time, with the same result as walking him anyway, and the other half you'll make him hit a bad pitch. Yes, it's unsportsmanlike, but you're taking advantage of an unsportsmanlike situation he created. To do otherwise would be to let him game the system, as he's done over the past ten years.

sharpie Apr 27 2006 10:07 AM

]Intentional walks in Little League? Only one I've ever called.

Rockin' Doc Apr 27 2006 01:35 PM

I debated this question quickly as Bonds was stepping into the batter''s box. I quickly decided that I would pitch to him, though very carefully. Unfortunately, Bonds is too disciplined at the plate (Jose Reyes, please take note) for a pitcher to effectively pitch around him. Bonds just doesn't chase many pitches out of the strike zone, so you almost have to either go after him or simply put him on. If you put Bonds on and then lost the game on a three run homer by Niekro there would be absolutely no justification for it. Of course, once Bonds hit it out, my immediate reaction was, "Should have walked him". I truly believe that pitching to him was the proper move. As Felipe Alou said in a post game interview, "If you aren't going to pitch to him (Bonds) in that situation with that guy (Wagner) on the mound. When are you ever going to pitch to him."

Yancy Street Gang Apr 27 2006 01:38 PM

Rockin' Doc wrote: As Felipe Alou said in a post game interview, "If you aren't going to pitch to him (Bonds) in that situation with that guy (Wagner) on the mound. When are you ever going to pitch to him." Well, that's a dumb question by Felipe. The answer would be: When he's not the tying run at the plate in the bottom of the ninth. But as I said, I would've pitched to him too. If he homered in 8 out of 10 plate appearences, I'd feel differently. But it's not like a homer was anywhere near a sure thing.

rpackrat Apr 27 2006 03:37 PM

I think it was the right call. He only represented the tying run and he was facing a lefty. There has been some (though by no means conclusive) evidence that he doesn't have much left in the tank, and Wagner throws gas. He hit a 98 mph fastball in a good location. kudos to Bonds. But it was still the right call.

Rockin' Doc Apr 28 2006 07:10 AM

Does anyone know where to find Bonds history against Wagner? In post game interviews, Bonds mentioned that he wasn't surprised that the Mets pitched to him. He said that he had never had much success against Wagner in the past. I agree with rpackrat that Wagner made a pretty good pitch. A 97-98 mph fastball, high and outside blows away most hitters. Unfortunately, Bonds isn't like most hittters. Bonds had a great at bat. I don't fault the decision to pitch to him in that situation.

Johnny Dickshot Apr 28 2006 07:33 AM

This database is a little screwy (look at the players listed by team) and I'm not certain it's updated, but shows Bonds as 3-for-13 vs. Wags with a homer, a double a walk and 3 Ks. batter v. pitcher

abogdan Apr 28 2006 08:57 AM

Interesting take on Bonds strategy from Ken Rosenthal's column at [url=http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/5549214]FoxSports.com[/url] ]Statistical analysts say it's more advantageous to pitch to Barry Bonds rather than put him on base in most situations, but Bonds' continuing difficulty with his right knee creates another reason for teams to walk him. One National League G.M. says he wants Bonds to use his legs, wants him to run the bases. The G.M.'s unspoken wish: That Bonds will wear down.

Rockin' Doc Apr 28 2006 09:46 AM

Thanks for the assistance JD. It appears that the 3-13 includes the HR the other night, since the stats for 2006 show Bonds as 1-2 with a HR sersus Wagner. So going into his fateful pinch hitting appearance the other day, Barry Bonds had been 2-12 with a double, a walk and 3 strike outs. As Barry pointed out post-game, Wagner has handled him quite effectively during his career.

Frayed Knot Apr 28 2006 10:05 AM

Yeah I mentioned the 2-fer-12 in the intro - now 3/13. I think that - plus Wagner's rep in general - was part of what Felipe was trying to say: if you're not going to pitch to Barry with HIM when are you going to pitch to him? That outside heat will probably get most hitters - although Keith was talking the other night about how it's often the easiest pitch to hit - but one theory on pitching to Barry these days might be to jam him. That knee might prevent him from "turning" on the ball as well as in past days and it might not be a coincidence that all 3 of his HRs this season are to LF (the field, not the ass who used to post here).