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Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

roger_that Apr 01 2022 03:24 AM

Belatedly, it occurs to me that the Mets retiring number 37 in Casey Stengel's honor wasn't really about honoring a great manager as it was to stick it to the Yankees for dissing him. Think about it: Aside from getting them publicity, and managing some piss-poor ballplayers to multiple 100-loss seasons, what was so special about his managing the team for 3 and a half years? Nothing, really. It makes more sense for them to have honored him because the Yankees had fired him, and he was pissed at them ("I'll never turn 70 again!") and this was a really good way to stick a finger in the Yankees' eye. Not to go off a whole 'nother tangent here, but he really wasn't very good, by any standard, as a NY Mets manager: his techniques were outmoded, he alienated and ridiculed his players, he wasn't very good at discovering talent that no one else saw, and the team improved a lot soon after he retired. Does anyone believe that if he hadn't gotten crippled and forced to retire in mid season, the 1969 Mets would have gone on to have the success they did under his leadership? It is to laugh.

kcmets Apr 01 2022 06:30 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

Interesting visit to alternate reality. Has(d) nothing to do with the Yankees though imho.

roger_that Apr 01 2022 07:09 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

Nothing? I'm not sure what retiring '37' was for. What do you think it was for? 1) They really didn't have anybody worthy of a retired number at that point. I forget the order of retired numbers and the years, but there were just three numbers on the outfield wall at Shea for a long time, Casey, Gil, and Tom Franchise, and I can see the latter two (Gil mostly as an outcropping of sentimentality and emotion about his early death, though he was eight times the Mets manager that Casey was) but I think Casey's 37 was retired as filler. Retiring numbers was cool, but we didn't really have a lot of great players in our history at that point, so Casey was selected. 2) He really was a pretty bad manager, wasn't he? Forget about the W-L record for a second, how much worse would you or I have done managing the 1962 Mets? If you did pretty much the opposite of whatever moves he made, the George Costanza principle, how much worse would it have been possible to do? Casey lost 3 games out of 4--do you think you would have lost 4 out of 5? I don't think a demented chimpanzee would have lost 4 out of 5 games. 3) he got the Mets a lot of ink in his stint as manager, and that's not exactly nothing, but it's pretty close. Retiring someone's number because he got good P.R. and schmoozed with newsmen well? By that standard, Jay Horwitz should be cast in gold. No, they wanted to look like the Good Guys in comparison to the Yankees, which doesn't take much, true.

kcmets Apr 01 2022 07:27 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

=roger_that post_id=88046 time=1648818592 user_id=128] Nothing? I'm not sure what retiring '37' was for. What do you think it was for?

He was the inaugural manager for the franchise. A loveable NYC baseball figure. Take

a deep breath and realize I'm not disputing any of your points OTHER than his number

was retired to stick it to (trolling?) the Yankees. It's a preposterous notion.

Johnny Lunchbucket Apr 01 2022 08:18 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

I don't have a problem with retiring 37 -- or any number-- strictly for cultural contributions to the Met cause. Hernandez is seeing 17 go out based as much for his Seinfeld appearance and broadcasting chops as the gold gloves and 310 batting average. Agree that Casey wasn't much of a skipper for the Mets

Edgy MD Apr 01 2022 08:22 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

I understand that, after X amount of years, a young franchise without a lot of history had to embrace that, whatever his record, his act was more than anything what gave the franchise it's identity. If you sang a song about the Mets before 1969, he might be the only named person you included. I can't say for certain, but I think, for most expansion franchises, their first retired number is sort of like, "Ummm, OK, I guess, sure, whatever." Apart from Jackie Robinson, the Rays have retired numbers for ... Wade Boggs and Don Zimmer? Ummm, OK, I guess, sure, whatever. Anyhow, good to see you back.

kcmets Apr 01 2022 08:23 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Hernandez is seeing 17 go out based as much for his Seinfeld appearance and broadcasting chops as the gold gloves and 310 batting average. Seinfeld? Is this an April Fools joke?

roger_that Apr 01 2022 08:51 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

Nothing? I'm not sure what retiring '37' was for. What do you think it was for? He was the inaugural manager for the franchise. A loveable NYC baseball figure. Take a deep breath and realize I'm not disputing any of your points OTHER than his number was retired to stick it to (trolling?) the Yankees. It's a preposterous notion. "Preposterous" is my middle name. Roger P. That. So you give me two other possibilities for honoring Casey like that. (And it is a BIG honor: No "8" for Gary Carter, No "16' for Doc, plenty of other big stars who will never have their numbers retired.) One is that he was "the inaugural manager"--tell me, can you even name "the inaugural manager" of the other three 1961-2 expansion teams? Don't try too hard. You can't. And the other is that he was "loveable"--give me a break. Puppies are loveable. Thai food is loveable. BAMBI is lovable. Linda Ronstadt is lovable. 70-year-old baseball managers, not that much. But let's go back to the other three managers you couldn't even visualize, much less name. This is like a controlled experiment: if four teams are picking their rosters from approximately the same pool of marginal MLB players in approximately the same year and playing against approximately the same established teams, and one of those managers' winning percentages with his expansion team is MUCH, MUCH worse than the other three, what conclusions are you willing to draw about that one manager's managerial skill set? Again, don't think too hard. This is another chip-in shot.

Marshmallowmilkshake Apr 01 2022 08:58 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

I don't have a problem recognizing Casey for his off-the-field role. I think he might have been more of a figurehead than actual manager. He was the face of the franchise and his injury was surely not the way anyone wanted him to go out. I have no problem with Carter and Gooden being honored in that way.

kcmets Apr 01 2022 09:00 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

I'm not playing games. The premise was retiring the number was trolling the Yankees. Sticking it to them. I disagreed, still do.

roger_that Apr 01 2022 09:13 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

=kcmets post_id=88058 time=1648825216 user_id=53] I'm not playing games. The premise was retiring the number was trolling the Yankees. Sticking it to them. I disagreed, still do.

Wrong side of bed this morning?



The answers (I had to look this up) are Mickey Vernon, Bill Rigney, and the immortal Harry Craft, who averaged 65 wins for their teams in 1962. 65/40 works out to 62.5% better for them, on average, than Casey's Mets. Remember, again, these were teams picking from the same crappy pool of players as the Mets.



To give you some inkling of how much better the other expansion managers did with approximately the same quality of players, let's see how the winningest team in MLB in 1962, did: the Giants won 103 games. 62.5% better than that is a shade over 167 wins, which would be more wins than games played, a neat trick if you can do it.

kcmets Apr 01 2022 09:18 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

A neater trick would be to show how retiring 37 trolled or stuck it to the Yankees. But you obviously have no interest in doing that.

roger_that Apr 01 2022 09:26 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

Does your bed have two wrong sides? Obviously, it is merely my personal opinion that "trolling the Yankees" was a big motivation for the Mets in retiring 37, and short of finding M. Donald Grant's invention of the term in his secret diary ("LOL! Retiring 37 is a YOOGE troll-job on the NYY!!") it must perforce remain my personal opinion.

kcmets Apr 01 2022 11:19 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

Look, everyone knows that Casey Stengel was everything you typed and more. But no, you had to preface it with that retiring his number was 'trolling' and then with 'sticking it to the Yanks' which was just plain wrong. Find me anywhere in any medium where anyone has ever said that was the case - except for you, here. I've been very polite, see no reason for you to question (twice) what side of the bed I got up on. Then you go on with the amateur-sophistry act and play the whiny 'it's my opinion' card. Well, no duh.

seawolf17 Apr 01 2022 11:59 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

I get the question. I really do. But I think it was done in good faith, for the reasons mentioned above. "Trolling" wasn't really a thing, at least certainly not in the modern sense, back in 1965. He got hurt, was forced into retirement, and it was a nice tribute a few weeks later to the guy who was really the face of the team for literally its entire existence to that point. I agree that there was likely no subtext.

roger_that Apr 01 2022 12:47 PM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

Look, everyone knows that Casey Stengel was everything you typed and more. But no, you had to preface it with that retiring his number was 'trolling' and then with 'sticking it to the Yanks' which was just plain wrong. Find me anywhere in any medium where anyone has ever said that was the case - except for you, here. I've been very polite, see no reason for you to question (twice) what side of the bed I got up on. Then you go on with the amateur-sophistry act and play the whiny 'it's my opinion' card. Well, no duh. Ok, it isn't my opinion. It's an established fact, known throughout the sporting world, and attested to by the published DIARIES OF M. DONALD GRANT. All I'm trying to say is that someone in the Mets' front office probably thought it would make the Yankees look bad, and would be a popular (if somewhat nonsensical) move with the fans. Firing Stengel in 1960 didn't look good to begin, and hiring him in 1962 was more of a good P.R. move than it was a baseball move, and this was just the cherry on top, an extra little twisting of the knife. The Mets and the Yankees were engaged in that sort of thing a lot. What, do you think signing Yogi to a contract in 1965 was a pure baseball move, too? "Yes, this is our golden opportunity to sign a retired 40-year-old for that crucial third catcher slot. If we play this right, we might be able to get 8 at-bats out of him before he quits in agony." They were pulling the Yankees' chain all the way. Put another way, can you prove it WASN'T done with that intent in mind? Since you can't begin to, may I dismiss your posts as your idiotic opinions, or must I take them as established fact?

batmagadanleadoff Apr 01 2022 01:04 PM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

This is totally plausible. I wouldn't go so far as to say that sticking it to the Yankees was the Mets' main motivating force in retiring Case's number. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the Mets, internally, decided to retire 37 years earlier, like before Shea Stadium debuted. But it could've been a factor. There's no way that it was lost on the Mets that the most successful manager in Yankees history and the manager that presided over ths Yankees' most dominant dynasty was way more popular with Mets fans.

kcmets Apr 01 2022 01:19 PM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

What, do you think signing Yogi to a contract in 1965 was a pure baseball move, too? "Yes, this is our golden opportunity to sign a retired 40-year-old for that crucial third catcher slot. If we play this right, we might be able to get 8 at-bats out of him before he quits in agony." They were pulling the Yankees' chain all the way. Yes, clearly based on this thread that's what I thought. I knew this was going to be a ball-busting waste of time. Fool me twice, shame on me...

nymr83 Apr 01 2022 09:24 PM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

This is totally plausible. I wouldn't go so far as to say that sticking it to the Yankees was the Mets' main motivating force in retiring Case's number. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the Mets, internally, decided to retire 37 years earlier, like before Shea Stadium debuted. But it could've been a factor. There's no way that it was lost on the Mets that the most successful manager in Yankees history and the manager that presided over ths Yankees' most dominant dynasty was way more popular with Mets fans. Yeah, 20 posts later we got there - sticking it to the Yankees was an item on the list of "Pros" for retiring his number. Not likely a primary factor, but I'm sure the Mets were happy about it.

roger_that Apr 02 2022 02:30 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

This is totally plausible. I wouldn't go so far as to say that sticking it to the Yankees was the Mets' main motivating force in retiring Case's number. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the Mets, internally, decided to retire 37 years earlier, like before Shea Stadium debuted. But it could've been a factor. There's no way that it was lost on the Mets that the most successful manager in Yankees history and the manager that presided over ths Yankees' most dominant dynasty was way more popular with Mets fans. Yeah, 20 posts later we got there - sticking it to the Yankees was an item on the list of "Pros" for retiring his number. Not likely a primary factor, but I'm sure the Mets were happy about it. EXACTLY --what is obviously so to some of us is "preposterous" to others. Nothing like a nice friendly discussion.

RealityChuck Apr 03 2022 12:42 PM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

=roger_that post_id=88060 time=1648826022 user_id=128] =kcmets post_id=88058 time=1648825216 user_id=53] I'm not playing games. The premise was retiring the number was trolling the Yankees. Sticking it to them. I disagreed, still do.

Wrong side of bed this morning?



The answers (I had to look this up) are Mickey Vernon, Bill Rigney, and the immortal Harry Craft, who averaged 65 wins for their teams in 1962. 65/40 works out to 62.5% better for them, on average, than Casey's Mets. Remember, again, these were teams picking from the same crappy pool of players as the Mets.



To give you some inkling of how much better the other expansion managers did with approximately the same quality of players, let's see how the winningest team in MLB in 1962, did: the Giants won 103 games. 62.5% better than that is a shade over 167 wins, which would be more wins than games played, a neat trick if you can do it.


So you're saying the quality of the players has no relevance?



You can't compare him to either of the AL managers in 1961 because there was a major difference in how the draft was set up. The NL expansion draft was changed to keep the more promising players from being taken.



In the draft, George Weiss felt that the roster should be filled with former Giants and Dodgers, all of whom were past their prime. I doubt any manager could do any better with the cards they are dealt.



What was important was that Stengel knew how bad his team was going to be, so he made himself the center of attention, promoting the team relentlessly. The team drew almost a million fans in a decaying ballpark with a terrible record the first year and Stengel was a big part of it.

roger_that Apr 04 2022 08:25 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

Weirdly, I just found this very question being posed on Quora. I am none of the participants, by the way, and think it's just a wacky coincidence that the same question appeared in my Quora feed:https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-New-York-Mets-retire-Casey-Stengels-number-even-though-they-were-terrible-when-he-was-their-manager

kcmets Apr 04 2022 09:03 AM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

Summonabee, that is an interesting coinkydink. I'm only seeing one reply (by Mark Salomon, name sounds familiar but I suppose it's a pretty common name). Is there more I'm not seeing? I don't understand Quora entirely. I have the app on my phone and get a conversation on a Led Zeppelin question like 5-6 times a week. But only Led Zeppelin? Weird.

stevejrogers Apr 04 2022 12:45 PM Re: Was retiring number 37 trolling the Yankees?

Stengel's number was officially mothballed 9/2/1965 as he retired following his hip injury. It takes until 8/8/70 for the Yankees to do the honors, though all talk about Met trolling aside, possibly they wanted to get #7 retired before other numbers. Quick Google-Fu suggests though that it was his first time in Yankee Stadium (I guess aside from Mayor's Trophy games) since his firing. So that goes towards an “in part trolling” theory.