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Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

Edgy MD May 20 2022 08:42 PM

Looking for the Rookie of the Year voting in 1994, I was surprised to find that Bobby (J.) Jones finished eighth in the voting. While he had a perfectly fine year and attaining eighth place just means that he gained a single vote for second place out of all 28 ballots cast, what truly surprised me was that I thought his rookie season (and only rookie season) was 1993. A look at his bb-r.com page, and yeah, he threw 61 2/3 innings in '93, while 50 or more should mean you've blown your rookie status for all future years. Forever! So this one writer cast this one ballot and it was somehow allowed? How has this been allowed to persist?! I blame the swoosh. [fimg=500]https://ansel.frgimages.com/new-york-mets/autographed-bobby-jones-new-york-mets-photo-8x10-w-coa_ss2_p-10329330+u-ra0sr00n77nxgocerzow+v-ad715f0c69e14bb6825fa9fa520346b6.jpg?_hv=1[/fimg]

Benjamin Grimm May 21 2022 06:51 AM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

Could it have been a vote for the other Bobby Jones?

Edgy MD May 21 2022 07:05 AM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

The other Bobby was playing with the Stockton Ports of the California League in 1994.

roger_that May 21 2022 08:29 AM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

This is what happens with poorly designed voting systems and poorly defined terms, such as "rookie." It's why, for example, Joe Dimaggio didn't get into the HoF first time around, or so it seems--they allowed people to cast ballots for players who weren't eligible for induction yet. An easy fix would have been to circulate a list of eligible candidates, and then ask voters to choose off that list. What it seems the lazy slobs who designed the voting, in fact, did was to ask voters to rank whoever they felt was a candidate, a recipe for disasters like this one.

Lefty Specialist May 21 2022 09:02 AM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

Boy, rainouts are tough, aren't they?

RealityChuck May 21 2022 10:28 AM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

This is what happens with poorly designed voting systems and poorly defined terms, such as "rookie." "Rookie" is specifically defined. [BLOCKQUOTE]A player shall be considered a rookie unless he has exceeded any of the following thresholds in a previous season (or seasons): • 130 at-bats or 50 innings pitched in the Major Leagues. • 45 total days on an active Major League roster during the Championship Season (excluding time on the Injured List). A player must have rookie eligibility to be considered for any MLB rookie awards -- such as the American League or National League Rookie of the Year Award -- or appear on any MLB Pipeline prospect lists..[/BLOCKQUOTE] It's morea matter of the sportswriter not checking.

batmagadanleadoff May 21 2022 10:41 AM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

=RealityChuck post_id=93013 time=1653150512 user_id=82] It's morea matter of the sportswriter not checking.

Sure. But there should be another safeguard to ensure the integrity of the voters' ballots. Also, a list is a good idea.

batmagadanleadoff May 21 2022 10:52 AM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

Does a player have to be a rookie all season long to qualify for that season's ROY award? What about a player who's a rookie on May 1st, 2022 but loses his rookie status on the very next day, May 2nd, 2022? Is he eligible for this year's ROY award? I think I used to know this but ain't so sure anymore.

batmagadanleadoff May 21 2022 10:56 AM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=93016 time=1653151941 user_id=68] Does a player have to be a rookie all season long to qualify for that season's ROY award? What about a player who's a rookie on May 1st, 2022 but loses his rookie status on the very next day, May 2nd, 2022? Is he eligible for this year's ROY award? I think I used to know this but ain't so sure anymore.

I think it's coming back. Has to be a rookie all season long. I think.

roger_that May 21 2022 12:14 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

I'd think "Of course he has to be a rookie all season." Move your example to Oct. 1, for example, and you'll see that if it's not set up like that, someone could win two straight ROTYs.

Edgy MD May 21 2022 12:45 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

The season in which he uses up his rookie eligibility — by at-bats, innings pitched, or service time — is a rookie season. If he hits his 50th career inning pitched on April 1, he's a rookie. More importantly, I think I need to get through to MLB and get this vote tossed and recast.

batmagadanleadoff May 21 2022 12:46 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie? Edited 1 time(s), most recently on May 21 2022 12:50 PM

I'd think "Of course he has to be a rookie all season." Move your example to Oct. 1, for example, and you'll see that if it's not set up like that, someone could win two straight ROTYs. Yes. I see your point. But it'd be virtually impossible for a player to win the award in consecutive years under the present rules, even if he uses up his rookie status. A player is a rookie until he exceeds 130 at-bats, 50 innings pitched or 45 days on the active roster of a Major League club. So a position player, would have to win his first ROY award in less than 131 at bats to still qualify the following season. That's less than two months of a season. Technically possible but unlikely. That's be one hell of a run of 130 at bats. He'd have to be way better than Yoenis2015. OE: Yoenis2015 as a Met.

batmagadanleadoff May 21 2022 12:50 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

Edgy MD wrote: More importantly, I think I need to get through to MLB and get this vote tossed and recast. How could this have slipped by all these years? Someone had to notice immediately, including Jones himself. Maybe there was a special rule in effect that year because of the strike?

roger_that May 21 2022 12:53 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

Well, I'm thinking of a circumstance where there's no rookie having a particularly strong year, and say a pitcher comes up for the first time late in the year and goes 5-0 and pitches two no-hitters. He might squeek into a ROTY award. McCovey won a ROTY in 1959 while having a great two months or so and no one else having even a decent rookie season. He probably exceeded the current definition of a rookie now, though I don't think they had a sharp definition at the time.

batmagadanleadoff May 21 2022 12:54 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

Edgy MD wrote: More importantly, I think I need to get through to MLB and get this vote tossed and recast. How could this have slipped by all these years? Someone had to notice immediately, including Jones himself. Maybe there was a special rule in effect that year because of the strike? A special rule that benefitted 1993 rookies wouldn't make sense.

batmagadanleadoff May 21 2022 01:01 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=93022 time=1653158810 user_id=68] That's less than two months of a season. Technically possible but unlikely. That's be one hell of a run of 130 at bats. He'd have to be way better than Yoenis2015. OE: Yoenis2015 as a Met.

Correction: less than five weeks of a baseball season.

Edgy MD May 21 2022 01:05 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

Yeah, it's nice to imagine. Even in that scenario, though, two months would exceed the 45-day limit. (You noted that yourself as I was typing.) I think that's a kinda cruel part of the rule, as I'd hate to see a guy miss out because he blew his eligibility sitting on the bench the year before. MLB made some sort of spirit-of-the-rule caveat for the 2021 season that anybody who won (or perhaps placed in the top three for) the RoY in the shortened 2020 season would be ineligible to be voted on in 2022, even if he kept his ab/ip/service time under the limit. I thought that was boobable but I see what they were going for. They might try and keep that rule in place in case some wunderkind comes up in September and hits like Jeffries '88 or pitches like Bob Walk '80 and grabs the award in a thin field. I feel like a big chunk of Fernando Valenzuela's 1981 value was in his first six weeks, so I guess he could have pulled it off he caught mono after 44 days (and gave it to Tim Raines and Hubie Brooks), before coming back and taking the award from Steve Sax in 1982. But even then, Fernando's brief time pitching out of the bullpen in 1980 would count against him.

Edgy MD May 21 2022 01:15 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

Edgy MD wrote: More importantly, I think I need to get through to MLB and get this vote tossed and recast. How could this have slipped by all these years? Someone had to notice immediately, including Jones himself. Maybe there was a special rule in effect that year because of the strike? If Jones noticed, I'm sure his agent said to StFU. Geekdom wasn't as intense then as now, but I'm sure somebody (Cohen? Rose?) would have noticed. Clearly I missed it, and the tidal wave of misery that was the 1993 Mets and the 1994-1995 strike did a lot of damage to the feelies of the era that preceded it, perhaps dulling our perception, but here we are, and all we can do is correct the record. And like the odd time when somebody notices an extra RBI for Lou Gehrig or hit for Honus Wagner, I think that record should be corrected. Either the original voter — if he or she is still on the planet and sentient — has to get it together and recast the ballot, or perhaps a successor at the same media outlet, or at least in the same media market. (Maybe it's Montreal!) Maybe somebody meant to vote for Jason Jacome and had a brain fart. Raul Mondesi's first-place finish is safe, but recasting this ballot could change the second- and third-place winners, and frankly, John Hudek wasn't a particularly strong second-place finisher in my estimation.

batmagadanleadoff May 21 2022 01:17 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

I'd think "Of course he has to be a rookie all season." Move your example to Oct. 1, for example, and you'll see that if it's not set up like that, someone could win two straight ROTYs. Edgy's right. Otherwise, hardly anybody would ever qualify. A brand new every day playing rookie making his major league debut on Opening Day would surely exceed the rookie limits during the season. Yet under your rule, he wouldn't be eligible. Pete Alonso wouldn't have been eligible in 2019 your way.

roger_that May 21 2022 03:01 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

You and Edgy are right. I'm wrong.

Fman99 May 21 2022 03:07 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

That swoosh is terrible though

RealityChuck May 21 2022 05:51 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

Don't do hypotheticals when you have a real-world example. One ROY winner a few years ago was HBP a couple of ABs before losing his rookie status and missed the rest of the season. He won the next year.

RealityChuck Jun 08 2022 02:03 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

Edgy MD wrote: The season in which he uses up his rookie eligibility — by at-bats, innings pitched, or service time — is a rookie season. If he hits his 50th career inning pitched on April 1, he's a rookie. More importantly, I think I need to get through to MLB and get this vote tossed and recast. There was a player a few years ago who was hit by a pitch one appearance before he lost his rookie eligibility and missed the rest of the season. He won the next year, even though he was no longer a rookie by the second game he appeared in in April. So it would seem that you're eligible if you are a rookie when the season begins.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 08 2022 02:08 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

=RealityChuck post_id=95369 time=1654718611 user_id=82] So it would seem that you're eligible if you are a rookie when the season begins.

Yes. We discussed this a few weeks ago. A player needs to qualify as a rookie for only one day of the season in question to be eligible for that season's ROY award. Othewise, for example, Pete Alonso, wouldn't have been eligible for the ROY award he won in 2019. Alonso was on the Opening Day 2019 25 man roster but as an everyday position player, had clearly used up his rookie eligibility by May of that season.

MFS62 Jun 08 2022 02:29 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

1993/4 were weird because of the baseball strike. Was Bobby Jones status affected in any way by that strike? I remember there was talk at the time about whether or not players who played would have statistics that counted. IIRC one Mets pitcher was involved. Was it Jones? Did any of the players get a re-set of things like eligibility? Later

kcmets Jun 08 2022 03:13 PM Re: Bobby Jones, Counterfeit Rookie?

=MFS62 post_id=95371 time=1654720175 user_id=60] 1993/4 were weird because of the baseball strike. Was Bobby Jones status affected in any way by that strike? I remember there was talk at the time about whether or not players who played would have statistics that counted. IIRC one Mets pitcher was involved. Was it Jones? Did any of the players get a re-set of things like eligibility? Later

bbrdotcom has rookie status on each player's page. He exceeded his in 1993.