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How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

Marshmallowmilkshake Jun 01 2022 09:52 AM

It's June 1. We have a 34-17 record, tied for most wins in MLB. We have a 10.5-game lead in the division. None of this means we are assured a seat at the table in October, but things are trending in the right direction for sure. Plus, we have a no-hitter, a well-deserved number retirement, Old-Timer's Day and even a glorious Seaver statue. We have at least five players who should merit serious consideration for a trip to the All-Star Game. It is, by just about any measure, a good day in Mets world. Who gets most of the credit here? Buck? A firm, experienced hand at the wheel dismissed by some here as a just a Yankee castoff retread? Did he pick all the coaches? Do they get credit for improvements from Lindor, Pete and McNeil? Billy Eppler, who didn't seem to be anyone's first choice when we were looking for a new GM? Remember all those stories about how no one wanted to work for the Mets? He did a good job of upgrading the roster, even with some of the depth signings. Is it Sandy? I don't think we've heard much from him in a while. Uncle Steve? He's not just offering big contracts. He and his wife have reportedly were hands on in the negations with Max. Boosted up the analytics department. Signed off on removing Cano. Does fan-friendly things. All of the above?

roger_that Jun 01 2022 10:19 AM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

All Steve, all the time. No Bucks, no Buck Rogers. Or Buck Rodgers. Or Buck Showalter.

Edgy MD Jun 01 2022 10:21 AM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

I'm crediting Alonso, McNeil, Lindor, Walker, et al.

kcmets Jun 01 2022 11:21 AM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

If was doling out 2022 Schaefer suds, thus far I'd vote: Buck 6.00 Billy 1.50 Steve 2.50

Gwreck Jun 01 2022 12:10 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

Edgy MD wrote: I'm crediting Alonso, McNeil, Lindor, Walker, et al. Fair, but it's also reasonable to acknowledge that the Lindor acquisition was made possible by the change in ownership. I give non-player credit to: Cohen: 40% for making the necessary resources available. Eppler: 10% Bassitt, Canha, and Marte have all been good acquisitions; Escobar hasn't been great. Note that Scherzer doesn't really count here; his acquisition was just a function of money as the best available pitcher. Prior versions of front office and prior ownership: 30% Alonso, McNeil, Nimmo, Walker, Carrasco, Smith, Diaz: a pretty good base to build around was already in place. Showalter: 20%. Steady leadership and generally good strategic decisions.

vtmet7 Jun 01 2022 12:20 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

How about the hitting coach?

Ceetar Jun 01 2022 12:31 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

good players. it's 95% the players, many of who were acquired by previous* regimes. Oh, and at least some credit to Alex Anthopoulous, who's actions have made some of the depth questions here much less dire. but awards and credit aren't dolled out on June 1st.

TransMonk Jun 01 2022 02:22 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

Honestly, it's been a while since I had a group that I more or less trust in the owners box, GM suite, manager's office and clubhouse combined. This looks like a pretty kick-ass group effort to me.

Edgy MD Jun 01 2022 02:32 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

And that's it. It's the whole package — scouting, development, training, coaching, metricking, and perhaps five or so general managers. Perhaps, indeed, as many as eight of them, counting the 2018 triumverate. It'd take a long time to unscrable those eggs.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 01 2022 03:30 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

=TransMonk post_id=94368 time=1654114968 user_id=71] Honestly, it's been a while since I had a group that I more or less trust in the owners box, GM suite, manager's office and clubhouse combined.

Yeah. Like 30 years.

vtmet7 Jun 01 2022 03:33 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve? Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jun 01 2022 03:41 PM

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=94379 time=1654119059 user_id=68] =TransMonk post_id=94368 time=1654114968 user_id=71] Honestly, it's been a while since I had a group that I more or less trust in the owners box, GM suite, manager's office and clubhouse combined.

Yeah. Like 30 years.


I thought that 1986 was more than 30 years ago

batmagadanleadoff Jun 01 2022 03:39 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

=vtmet7 post_id=94381 time=1654119222 user_id=80] =batmagadanleadoff post_id=94379 time=1654119059 user_id=68] =TransMonk post_id=94368 time=1654114968 user_id=71] Honestly, it's been a while since I had a group that I more or less trust in the owners box, GM suite, manager's office and clubhouse combined.

Yeah. Like 30 years.


I thought that 1986 was more than 30 years ago

It was. But I trusted that group. For me, things went south in the early 90s as soon as Fred became the de facto, if not the actual majority, owner.Then, in the blink of an eye, you had the worst team that money could buy, the 1993 golf club swinging, firecracker tossing, bleach shooting squad, then they lost the city to Derek Jeter and co. And it got even worse.

vtmet7 Jun 01 2022 03:43 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

Yeah. Like 30 years. I thought that 1986 was more than 30 years ago It was. But I trusted that group. For me, things went south in the early 90s as soon as Fred became the de facto, if not the actual majority, owner.Then, in the blink of an eye, you had the worst team that money could buy, the 1993 golf club swinging, firecracker tossing, bleach shooting squad, then they lost the city to Derek Jeter and co. And it got even worse. IMO, we did not realize it yet, but things started to change when Doubleday Publishing sold to Doubleday with Fred worming his way into an approximate equal partnership... https://www.upi.com/Archives/1986/11/14/Doubleday-Co-agreed-Friday-to-sell-the-New/4391532328400/

batmagadanleadoff Jun 01 2022 03:45 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=94382 time=1654119597 user_id=68] =vtmet7 post_id=94381 time=1654119222 user_id=80] =batmagadanleadoff post_id=94379 time=1654119059 user_id=68] Yeah. Like 30 years.

I thought that 1986 was more than 30 years ago

It was. But I trusted that group. For me, things went south in the early 90s as soon as Fred became the de facto, if not the actual majority, owner.Then, in the blink of an eye, you had the worst team that money could buy, the 1993 golf club swinging, firecracker tossing, bleach shooting squad, then they lost the city to Derek Jeter and co. And it got even worse.


Something tells me that we might be entering a not too brief stretch where we're not gonna be seeing times like those ineptTorborg years or like the Madoff era Mets for quite a while.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 01 2022 03:49 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

I thought that 1986 was more than 30 years ago It was. But I trusted that group. For me, things went south in the early 90s as soon as Fred became the de facto, if not the actual majority, owner.Then, in the blink of an eye, you had the worst team that money could buy, the 1993 golf club swinging, firecracker tossing, bleach shooting squad, then they lost the city to Derek Jeter and co. And it got even worse. IMO, we did not realize it yet, but things started to change when Doubleday Publishing sold to Doubleday with Fred worming his way into an approximate equal partnership... https://www.upi.com/Archives/1986/11/14/Doubleday-Co-agreed-Friday-to-sell-the-New/4391532328400/ For sure. That was the key event that set the Mets on a downward spiral. By the early 90s, Doubleday had more or less checked out out of disgust.

vtmet7 Jun 01 2022 03:52 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

It was. But I trusted that group. For me, things went south in the early 90s as soon as Fred became the de facto, if not the actual majority, owner.Then, in the blink of an eye, you had the worst team that money could buy, the 1993 golf club swinging, firecracker tossing, bleach shooting squad, then they lost the city to Derek Jeter and co. And it got even worse. IMO, we did not realize it yet, but things started to change when Doubleday Publishing sold to Doubleday with Fred worming his way into an approximate equal partnership... https://www.upi.com/Archives/1986/11/14/Doubleday-Co-agreed-Friday-to-sell-the-New/4391532328400/ For sure. That was the key event that set the Mets on a downward spiral. By the early 90s, Doubleday had more or less checked out out of disgust. he probably realized that he got swindled into "being in bed" with the precursor to the Trump family (the Wil-Katz extended families)...whereas nepotism outweighed merit in getting into decision making roles

Ceetar Jun 01 2022 04:15 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

he probably realized that he got swindled into "being in bed" with the precursor to the Trump family (the Wil-Katz extended families)...whereas nepotism outweighed merit in getting into decision making roles if you're worried about nepotism don't look too closely at the Mets front office.

vtmet7 Jun 01 2022 04:21 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

he probably realized that he got swindled into "being in bed" with the precursor to the Trump family (the Wil-Katz extended families)...whereas nepotism outweighed merit in getting into decision making roles if you're worried about nepotism don't look too closely at the Mets front office. no idea who's on the current MFO other than Sandy, Eppler and Uncle Steve...are these others that you speak of, at least a little more qualified/intelligent than Eric (and his brother, sister and B-I-L) and Jeff (and his brother that insisted that Spaz Matsui was the greatest shortstop and leadoff hitter in Japan)?

Edgy MD Jun 01 2022 04:30 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

Bryn Alderson

Edgy MD Jun 01 2022 04:37 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

Andrew Christie

Ceetar Jun 02 2022 08:31 AM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

Edgy MD wrote: Andrew Christie chronologically speaking, it's probably Chris that's the nepotism hire. It's not so much the straight relations i'm concerned with, it's more the cronyism. The Mets could win 10 world series in a row and having Chris Christie on the board is still a bad thing. But beyond that, the front office is littered with point72 people, and it's way too soon to say they've been monumentally influential in changing anything about this team or it's front office, particularly if they're moonlighting!

Bob Alpacadaca Jun 02 2022 08:37 AM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

Edgy MD wrote: Andrew Christie chronologically speaking, it's probably Chris that's the nepotism hire. It's not so much the straight relations i'm concerned with, it's more the cronyism. The Mets could win 10 world series in a row and having Chris Christie on the board is still a bad thing. But beyond that, the front office is littered with point72 people, and it's way too soon to say they've been monumentally influential in changing anything about this team or it's front office, particularly if they're moonlighting! I don't have a problem with Cohen bringing in point72 people. If I'm Cohen and I just invested $2 billion in a team that is known for dysfunctional leadership, I'm going to bring in people I know I can trust to do things and do things well -- and bring an outside perspective. Christie ran a large state. Whether you agree with his politics or not, there's value in having someone with that kind of experience and around.

Ceetar Jun 02 2022 09:06 AM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

"hey, you did that thing poorly, come over here!" "Hey, I know you're working in a completely different industry, but I definitely need you to give me 20+ more hours on a completely unrelated topic!" These aren't good processes. Hire baseball people. Hell, have a formal interview process and encourage your top choices to apply.

roger_that Jun 02 2022 09:25 AM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

Edgy MD wrote: Andrew Christie Christie ran a large state. Yeah, into the ground.

Marshmallowmilkshake Jun 02 2022 09:28 AM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

"hey, you did that thing poorly, come over here!" "Hey, I know you're working in a completely different industry, but I definitely need you to give me 20+ more hours on a completely unrelated topic!" These aren't good processes. Hire baseball people. Hell, have a formal interview process and encourage your top choices to apply. Hire baseball people for baseball jobs. Not every job running a baseball team is a baseball job. Plus, it seems to be working really well.

Centerfield Jun 02 2022 11:36 AM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

I think it's important to be specific about the question. Who is to credit for the Mets success this season? Lots of people, starting with the players. Then the manager, the coaches, the analytics guys who shifted gears, and even the Wilpons and the prior regimes. Sandy, who brought in Alonso, McNeil, Megill, even Omar who drafted Jake, all deserve some of the credit. But if you are asking what has been the difference, specifically, what factor is responsible for this Mets season being different than all the prior years? The answer is simple. Steve Cohen. He brought money, of course, but he also brought competence. His analytics approach backfired last year. He adjusted. He brought in Eppler, who has done a good job. He brought in Buck, who completely changed the culture. The no-hitter was just luck, but the success is hopefully here to stay. And that doesn't mean that the Mets will win anything this year, or any other year but if ownership continues to run this organization the right way, there is no reason this franchise can't have long period of sustained success.

Lefty Specialist Jun 02 2022 02:48 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

Hey, when you have Christie around the office, he's really AROUND the office😁. I don't have a problem with Uncle Steve having people he trusts in the organization. He's big into analytics, but he also hired a manager who does things his own way. It's hard to apply percentages, but all these things interlock. Cohen sets the tone and supplies the money. Buck has the team buying into his attitude and the fact that he always seems a few steps ahead. Comebacks from half the team help enormously. And Eppler found a few pieces they needed. Can't overstate Cohen allowing them to cut Cano loose. Jeff Wilpon couldn't have done that. That was an example that there would be accountability.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 02 2022 03:03 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

Lefty Specialist wrote: Can't overstate Cohen allowing them to cut Cano loose. Jeff Wilpon couldn't have done that. That was an example that there would be accountability. Good. Maybe he'll eat McCann's contract next and get a whole catcher to hold down the fort until the phenom down below is major league ready.

Edgy MD Jun 02 2022 03:12 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

That's repeated a lot, but the Mets before Cohen have dumped many bad and unwieldy contracts. It happens all the time. I haven't wanted to to make anything about it, because it becomes a proxy argument about the Wilpons in general, but sure they ate contracts. Paying for a player to lose games for you and paying for a player to not play for you isn't all that different no matter what kind of money you have. If a contract is immovable and the player isn't providing value, it's mostly all the same.

Frayed Knot Jun 02 2022 03:56 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

Yeah, the whole: 'the Mets never eat contracts while the Yanx eat them all the time' is said so often that it's probably assumed to be true by folks in eastern Ukraine ever though I'm sure they've got more meaningful things to worry about right now. The only problem with that well-worn bromide is that its complete opposite is actually closer to the truth. Can anyone actually tell me the last time the Yanx ate a contract because I honestly can't remember one? ... not in this century anyway*. They even had (off) Kei Igawa pitch four years in Scranton-Wilkes-Barre (that team should have so been called the Hyphens) rather than eat what remained of his deal. They paid him $20 million in total but I recall about half that was paid up front in the form of a signing bonus. It's like they were so pissed off at him for sucking -- it was the one mistake I ever remember Cashman owning up to botching -- that even after they realized he sucked (16 games total for the Yanx but only 2 after the first year) they refused to eat the final three years, even though only at about $2mil each, just to keep him from pitching in meaningful games with anyone. He eventually went back to Japan but only after they made him finish out his sentence by spending three-plus seasons commuting daily from Manhattan where he lived over to eastern PA (Really!). * I guess they sort of paid for ARod's finals season but that was some mutual agreement thing they worked out where I don't think the details were ever public.

Ceetar Jun 02 2022 05:27 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

=Marshmallowmilkshake post_id=94436 time=1654183691 user_id=119] Hire baseball people for baseball jobs. Not every job running a baseball team is a baseball job. Plus, it seems to be working really well.

Working very well so far, a winning season and a winning two months and no playoffs yet. And no real indication that it's the people brought in that have made the difference, other than, you know, the good players. It's not like the moonlighting Point72 people made those baseball decisions, or that their sketchy wall street stats knowledge is even applicable to baseball. Grain of salt because it's Andy Martino, but there was literally a report today that the Mets basically missed out on Loup because 12 months in they still hadn't figured out a GM.



Lots of credit to Buck though, that's a good change. Low bar to clear of course, and I do wish they'd have gone a little bolder, but like the media was literally clamoring for him, he's been around baseball for a while. It's not like some super secret ace in the hole that Cohen unearthed hiring him, if anything, it's the opposite, he's shown to like the big flashy 'name' signing.

smg58 Jun 03 2022 06:31 AM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

The turning point was the hiring of Eppler. Alderson was ultimately behind most of the baseball decisions up to that point and not doing well, and he started the GM search by assuming (a) of course baseball people under contract with more successful teams would make a lateral move and (b) of course their current employers would let them. Then Eppler shows up, good moves are made quickly, key pieces rumored to be on the move stayed put, and the right manager was brought in. Cohen deserves credit for learning from last year, doing right by people like Seaver, and treating established competence like a desirable commodity.

Ceetar Jun 03 2022 06:43 AM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

I'm not sure I'd classify hiring the guy that oversaw a team riddled with drugs and a guy die under his watch because all the other candidates spurned his offers after he had to fire the sex pests as "learning".

MFS62 Jul 03 2022 05:17 PM Re: How much is Buck? How much is Billy? How much is Uncle Steve?

With today's victory, Buck Showalter earns his 1,600th win and moves into 22nd place all-time among managers! Just sayin' Later