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extra inning runner

roger_that Jun 06 2022 08:00 AM

As threatened, I would like to discuss the runner on 2nd in extras rule, which i only partly understand but detest nonetheless. In the 6/5 IGT, I offered vaguely other ways of achieving similar ends: the one I like best is to simply eliminate extra innings altogether, and substitute other ways of settling tied games after nine innings. The one I like the best is to track each team's average game time going into the game in question, and awarding the win to that team. This has two separate benefits: 1) it makes teams very conscious of the importance of playing quickly, not dawdling, not wasting everyone's time, since doing so will cost that team a few winnable games each season, and 2) it settles the game in question right quick. In effect, it lets teams know that one team is essentially playing for a tie, which will turn into a victory, and the other team is playing for a win. Let it be noted that I much prefer just getting rid of the ghost runner. But if the goal is to eliminate extra innings, then this also serves the purpose of speeding up the game, and making the PLAYERS responsible over the long haul for doing that. I have other ideas, but first I want to get blasted to hell and gone for proposing this one.

Gwreck Jun 06 2022 08:10 AM Re: extra inning runner

There was and is no extra innings “problem.” The number of games extending into late innings is very small. Changing the rules is dumb. There could be no clearer indictment of why this rule is dumb than the fact that it does not apply in the postseason.

Frayed Knot Jun 06 2022 08:32 AM Re: extra inning runner

The ghost runner was instituted for Covid reasons obviously, mainly to reduce long games and the travel issues those can cause. Whether one thinks it was the right solution at the time is almost besides the point now. That they were extended into this season on the excuse that the delayed season and reduced spring training created "safety" concerns is, well, concerning because it comes off as a justification rather than a real reason. More concerning still is that the DH was a rule, also originally short-term, created to combat issues, real or perceived, that turned out to be both temporary and not really related to the causes of the supposed problems it was designed to fix. And now, half a century later, it's cast in stone. The problem isn't that extra inning games take too long, it's that the game takes too long just to get to the point where you arrive at extra innings.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 06 2022 08:33 AM Re: extra inning runner

I would rather see them declare that a game ends in a tie after 12 innings than any other contrived way of trying to end the game sooner. But that's assuming that there really is a need for this. My real preference is to let games go as long as they need to, like it's always been.

roger_that Jun 06 2022 08:55 AM Re: extra inning runner

Another way to settle ties, which would be far more pleasing to fans than this nonsense, would be to conclude batting practice with a Home Run Derby. The way I see it, each team's starting pitcher would conclude his warmups by pitching to his team's designated HR Derby hitter a certain number of pitches, and whichever side had the most balls hit over the fence is that game's winner in the event of a tie. Much more satisfying to the fans, I think.

Frayed Knot Jun 06 2022 08:56 AM Re: extra inning runner

Or they could just, y'know, play baseball.

Ceetar Jun 06 2022 09:02 AM Re: extra inning runner

Frayed Knot wrote: The problem isn't that extra inning games take too long, it's that the game takes too long just to get to the point where you arrive at extra innings. that's not the problem either. The 'problem' is trying to do things that appeal to their customers (ESPN, Apple+TV+ whatever, Networks, etc) So the zombie runner was their hairbrained idea to come up with late season shootout drama. But in a compact time frame so it can be scheduled. It's not good baseball drama, because it induces a lot of IBBs and sacrifices and the boring stuff, but it DOES create near constant "any pitch could win the game" type TV drama. THAT is the goal. Just like the expanded playoffs are solely because they get more money for playoffs. Like this tweet: [TWEET]https://twitter.com/andrewmarchand/status/1498673430740283398[/TWEET] It's why the lockout ended when it did, because the players caved to MLB's fake deadline. That deadline was basically the deadline when they'd have to give money back on the yearly TV deals. That's why despite days off being part of the CBA, fiercely negotiated, they still crammed the extra games into the season when they started late. THAT is why the deadline MLB was proposing seemed so fluid, because they kept figuring "well, if we take away some off days, we still hit our TV threshold where we get the same cash"

batmagadanleadoff Jun 06 2022 09:05 AM Re: extra inning runner

How about a karaoke contest? Maybe some AC/DC song where you can't even tell what language the player's singing in, never mind the actual lyrics. Or a hot dog eating contest? They could get sponsors for that. Money..

batmagadanleadoff Jun 06 2022 09:08 AM Re: extra inning runner

Think of all the money the team would save on post game buffet if the sponsor had to supply the hot dogs. I'd want Benny Agbayani on my team for that.

roger_that Jun 06 2022 09:09 AM Re: extra inning runner

Frayed Knot wrote: Or they could just, y'know, play baseball. And that would be my preference. But if they're going to do something to curtail extra innings, I'm trying to point out some ways that would be less damaging and far more fun for the fans to follow.

Marshmallowmilkshake Jun 06 2022 09:10 AM Re: extra inning runner

I don't like using gimmicks to end ballgames, and I don't like ties at all. And I know I'm an outlier, but I don't think the game times are all that bad. It seems like baseball constantly downgrades its product by telling people its games are too long -- especially when some of the length is created by the advertising time between innings and pitching changes. That's especially true in the postseason. I do think there are ways to improve some of the dead time, like when the batter goes wandering off between every pitch, Yadier Molina makes a dozen trips to the mound and the endless throws over to first where they aren't even seriously trying to pick off the runner. I was at a couple Florida State League games in May and they were using the clock between pitches. There were a couple ball calls and the games moved along, but they also didn't have time between innings for TV ads to slow things down. So, a long way of saying I think they should just play regular rules in extra innings. If they want to used the automatic runner in the rare occasion when things go 12 innings or more, I can live with that.

Benjamin Grimm Jun 06 2022 09:11 AM Re: extra inning runner

I'd much prefer the stupid ghost runner to a Home Run Derby or anything else that takes us further from batting and pitching and fielding and running.

roger_that Jun 06 2022 09:22 AM Re: extra inning runner

Well, the HR Derby does involve pitching and hitting of a sort. And as stated, I'd much prefer my scheme about average game times settling the issue, motivating teams to play their games more expeditiously.

Johnny Lunchbucket Jun 06 2022 09:52 AM Re: extra inning runner

It's going to become the norm, and I'm certain MLB would admit that marketing the game to younger fans with short attention spans is one of the reasons behind it--and you can bet there's probably a lot of young fans who DO like it. That it shortens games is only a byproduct and a way to sell it to some who feel that's a problem. Also-- and mainly playing devil's advocate here -- baseball fans are old white men like most of us and old white men in this country are especially resistant to accepting change to their worldview and the way things "should" be--look no further than debate on the DH 50 years on, or you know, any Republican voter. Plus we're all going die soon and it's going to be our kids and their kids--the ones who grew up with this as the norm, who might over time feel strongly about it's value when they are old men. As a means of shortening games it's completely inadequate and subtracts from what many of us feel is often the most exciting portion of a game, so much, more work needs to be done on that.

Frayed Knot Jun 06 2022 10:10 AM Re: extra inning runner

Wow. Expanded playoffs were about increased income? Thanks.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 06 2022 10:11 AM Re: extra inning runner

Jeez is time flying. There's already a whole generation of adult Mets fans who've never seen a Mets game in real time at Shea Stadium, in person or on TV. Shea, to them, is like the Polo Grounds to me.

MFS62 Jun 06 2022 10:26 AM Re: extra inning runner

The extra inning runner is a curiosity that isn't an affront to the sensibilities like the DH. It is an interesting experiment that won't, IMO, effect my enjoyment of a game. It is fair to both teams and is a pleasant change that may bring back fundamental baseball instead of the current boring homer or nothing hitting approach. I'm willing to see more of it for a while. Later

Gwreck Jun 06 2022 10:32 AM Re: extra inning runner

Frayed Knot wrote: Or they could just, y'know, play baseball. Correct answer. Stop messing with rules that don't need to be changed. Speeding up games in innings 1-9 makes a ton of sense. Trying to shorten the tiny percentage of games that go to extras (and perverting the game as a consequence) does not.

Johnny Lunchbucket Jun 06 2022 10:35 AM Re: extra inning runner

I've brought this up before and it's even more radical but if game length is what they really wanted to solve, they should cut games to 7 innings--but throw a bone to old men by saying that games are still 9 innings by keeping the "bonus runner" nonsense where it is in the 10th--so 2 innings of real baseball then the skills competition. I think the bonus runner biz would also be more palatable were they to give clubs a chance to win in extras. So, go to it in like the 15th or something. But they already opened with a bigger bet.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 06 2022 10:36 AM Re: extra inning runner

=MFS62 post_id=94968 time=1654532780 user_id=60] It is fair to both teams....

What rule isn't equally fair (or equally unfair) to both teams?

roger_that Jun 06 2022 10:37 AM Re: extra inning runner

It's a perversion, an abomination, an offense to all that's good and holy. Pete Alonso is all that stands between me and giving up on baseball altogether at this point.

Johnny Lunchbucket Jun 06 2022 10:39 AM Re: extra inning runner

=roger_that post_id=94972 time=1654533422 user_id=128] It's a perversion, an abomination, an offense to all that's good and holy. Pete Alonso is all that stands between me and giving up on baseball altogether at this point.

I get it but let's be honest with ourselves here--baseball really doesn't need us to survive. It needs our kids

Gwreck Jun 06 2022 10:42 AM Re: extra inning runner

Yeah, but how does the extra inning runner solve that? Speeding up the game in innings 1-9, sure. The occasional extra inning game? It's a dumb rule change that doesn't solve anything important.

MFS62 Jun 06 2022 10:43 AM Re: extra inning runner

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=94971 time=1654533403 user_id=68] =MFS62 post_id=94968 time=1654532780 user_id=60] It is fair to both teams....

What rule isn't equally fair (or equally unfair) to both teams?


I was comparing it to the now to be changed NFL sudden death with a TD in overtime rule.

Later

roger_that Jun 06 2022 10:43 AM Re: extra inning runner

Well, if they're trying to alienate me with all this crap, they're doing an excellent job.

Johnny Lunchbucket Jun 06 2022 10:53 AM Re: extra inning runner

=Gwreck post_id=94974 time=1654533764 user_id=56] Yeah, but how does the extra inning runner solve that? Speeding up the game in innings 1-9, sure. The occasional extra inning game? It's a dumb rule change that doesn't solve anything important.

Agreed. I just strongly suspect MLB knew--or suspected that younger fans wanted something akin to hockey's 3-on-3 or other overtime gimmicks and sold it as a time-saving move to make it palatable

Edgy MD Jun 06 2022 11:02 AM Re: extra inning runner

Also sold it as a COVID-abatement measure.

Gwreck Jun 06 2022 11:21 AM Re: extra inning runner

Hockey's 3-on-3 overtime is amazing, and they should just make that the entire third period.

Ceetar Jun 06 2022 12:03 PM Re: extra inning runner

Hockey's 3-on-3 overtime is amazing, and they should just make that the entire third period. right, it's different rules, but it's still the same sport, the same competition. zombie runner is only barely that. I'm all for new rules that aren't gimmicks, moving the mound, move the bases, whatever. Even banning the shift, as stupid as that is, is at least some semblance of normal. Off-sides is mostly not a thing in baseball, but it's not a foreign concept. But change for changes sake, there's no reason. It's not so much the concept or that they didn't wait until like the 13th, it's that it's so very blatantly a "Manfred hates baseball" thing that's meant to make the broadcast easier, the end of the game more memeable. Nothing to do with the game itself, or the fans or even safety, no matter what lies they tell. If ESPN found 15 innings profitable, this rule wouldn't exist.

Edgy MD Jun 06 2022 12:17 PM Re: extra inning runner

I oppose offsides rules (in ice hockey and fútbol particularly) as well. You or I may turn our noses up at the selfishness of goalhanging, but it strikes me as a legitimate life choice. If somebody wants to play the heel and ignore the selfless duties of defending in exchange for the glory-hogging of scoring, it's the tradeoff he or she chooses, and presumably the one his or her coach allows. What's the problem?

Centerfield Jun 06 2022 12:19 PM Re: extra inning runner

It's frustrating because there was such a simple compromise position. Two innings of regular extras, then start with the runner in the 12th. I might even be for that rule. But I think the cat is out of the bag now. And people will point to games (like yesterday's) where the rule shortened the game. What's done is done, I think, and like JCL says, all of us old white guys are going to have to deal with it.

Marshmallowmilkshake Jun 06 2022 12:32 PM Re: extra inning runner

ESPN's Karl Ravitch has been clamoring to shorten all games to seven innings to speed things along. Don't like it.

Edgy MD Jun 06 2022 12:44 PM Re: extra inning runner

And that just makes me want to extend the games to 11 innings. Ravech is Binghamton grad of 1990, so vtmet and MFS62's daughter probably know him and can reach out to him. Keith is Keith, but announcers complaining about game length is a bad look.

Johnny Lunchbucket Jun 06 2022 12:56 PM Re: extra inning runner

=Marshmallowmilkshake post_id=95007 time=1654540352 user_id=119] ESPN's Karl Ravitch has been clamoring to shorten all games to seven innings to speed things along. Don't like it.

As was I upthread--mainly as a suggestion that doing so would be a very effective game-shortener. I'm more than ok if they don't, just saying all the other tweaks they are talking about are tiny in comparison

metsmarathon Jun 06 2022 01:35 PM Re: extra inning runner

i feel like the baseball equivalent to 3v3 hockey is something akin to starting every at bat with a 3-2 count. which i would be more in favor of than the stupid extra runner.

roger_that Jun 06 2022 01:50 PM Re: extra inning runner

=metsmarathon post_id=95031 time=1654544107 user_id=83] the stupid extra runner.

Can we agree on making this adjective mandatory?

kcmets Jun 06 2022 01:52 PM Re: extra inning runner

Frayed Knot wrote: Or they could just, y'know, play baseball. Put this old white man in Camp Play Ball. The game's not broken, stop fixing it already. The commish needs to go, someone start a petition. I'll gladly be your first signature. #lgm #ygb #ymdyf

Frayed Knot Jun 06 2022 02:02 PM Re: extra inning runner

What good is shorter baseball if the pace of the game still plods along at its current pace?!?!?!? That's not faster baseball it's LESS baseball and if you want less baseball then the solution is easy, hit the Off button. Less baseball is what haters of baseball want; well they don't actually want less they want None but are willing to settle for less as a starting point. The problem isn't merely that 3-1/2 hour games are becoming more common as 2-1/2 hour ones increasingly fade into distant memory, it's that these 3-1/2 hour versions have the same amount of content as their 2-1/2 hour predecessors as the lords of the game wonder where they went wrong. And before we decide that nobody younger than the average age of this board will ever watch another game (as if kids with short attention spans was just invented in the last decade or so) maybe, just maybe mind you, they might be more interested in watching, and able to watch, if the games were occasionally in the day time, if the night ones were over prior to 11 PM, and if playoff games didn't each have the same running time as the GODFATHER SAGA. And the most frustrating part is that a speeding up of the pace of play is possible without resorting to gimmicks or the excising of nearly 25% of content. Again, it's not just that these gimmicks are new or that they're an affront to old geezers like me, it's that they're being passed off as solutions to problems which they're ill suited to fix while actual fixes are being ignored kicked down the road.

vtmet7 Jun 06 2022 02:50 PM Re: extra inning runner

I'll agree that the phantom runner rule is nonsense...I would much rather see the Mets/Braves play until 4 am and then have fireworks afterwards; even if I was stuck hearing John Sterling calling the game... John Sterling, now the radio announcer for the New York Yankees, was calling Braves games at the time. He recalled that by the 18th inning, the Braves were in rough shape. It was 3:30 a.m., the Mets had scored, the Braves had two outs, and the next batter to the plate was pitcher Rick Camp, whom Sterling said was “widely known as the worst hitting pitcher in baseball.” After Camp had two strikes against him, Sterling said he recalled telling his radio colleague, “If he hits a home run to tie this game, this game will be certified as absolutely the nuttiest in the history of baseball.” https://www.wabe.org/remembering-legendary-rick-camp-atlanta-braves-game/

vtmet7 Jun 06 2022 02:52 PM Re: extra inning runner

so what are alternatives? Have each team select a "champion" for an extra innings Home Run Derby? no balls, no strikes...each player gets 20 pitches to hit the most Home Runs? baseball loves their home runs nowadays...would give us a chance to showcase Luis G in the HR derby, if that were who Buck selected...

Willets Point Jun 06 2022 03:16 PM Re: extra inning runner

I'd really like to see a statistical breakdown of extra innings in the past three seasons to see if the ghost runner has actually shortened games. Because anecdotally I've watched multiple games over the past three seasons where both teams drove in their ghost runner and thus remained tied.

TransMonk Jun 06 2022 03:28 PM Re: extra inning runner

I've looked for that type of breakout in the past and couldn't find any. I wonder why. Kinda.

Johnny Lunchbucket Jun 06 2022 04:04 PM Re: extra inning runner

btw, I'm having lunch with Big Important People from MLB this week, will bring this convo up to them

Chad ochoseis Jun 06 2022 05:44 PM Re: extra inning runner

Willets Point wrote: I'd really like to see a statistical breakdown of extra innings in the past three seasons to see if the ghost runner has actually shortened games. Because anecdotally I've watched multiple games over the past three seasons where both teams drove in their ghost runner and thus remained tied. The longest game since 2020 went 16 innings in August of 2021: https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sports/padres/story/2021-08-26/padres-dodgers-blake-snell-wil-myers-trent-grisham-will-smith-fernando-tatis-longest-game. Until then, the longest game since the Manfred Man was instituted had been 13 innings, which seems short. 14 inning games weren't all that uncommon prior to the Stupid Extra Inning Runner™. The Mets played 8 games that were 14 innings or longer from 2015 through 2019. So it does look like the rule change succeeded in shortening extra inning games, for what it's worth. My wild idea to improve extra inning games would be to allow an "amnesty" after the 9th, where players who had been pulled from the game are eligible to come off the bench one more time. This way, if a situation calls for a PH or PR, you're more likely to have one available on the bench rather than having to bat your right handed .170 hitting backup catcher against a righty with runners in scoring position. Probably wouldn't work for pitchers, but it could for position players.

Edgy MD Jun 06 2022 06:14 PM Re: extra inning runner

Extra-inning baseball is awesome. Unless Jerry Manuel is managing.

Fman99 Jun 06 2022 06:43 PM Re: extra inning runner

The stupid extra inning runner is stupid. Read more about it on my blog oldwhiteguy.edu