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New slide rules

roger_that Jun 11 2022 07:18 PM

No, not the things that old fashioned nerds used to whip out as regularly as old fashioned porn stars used to whip out their junk, but the rules on sliding into bases, and on over sliding past them. Which is mostly a discussion about technology--now that we have replay cameras, and TV directors who whip them out as frequently as...well, let's skip that whole metaphor and go straight to the root of the problem: folks who might have been okay with umps using their eyesight and their judgment to decide plays on which a runner may have, or may not have, strayed a silly millimeter past a base are NOT apparently okay when a bunch of umps in Chelsea take two minutes of freezing frames and switching angles to decide the same. Me, I love it. I've always been a big supporter of replay cameras. I can't wait personally for ALL of baseball to be ruled by objective measures rather than weak-eyed and strong-willed men who, honestly, are deeply flawed in more ways than I can count, but this is one example where accuracy is needed and human frailty is not. It has ALWAYS been against the rules to break contact with a base while the tag was being applied--the problem in calling this rule was that human umps couldn't always (or even usually) judge whether contact was ever-so-briefly broken. But now we can. The solution to the problem of "BUT I DON'T WANNA GET CALLED OUT!!" is simple: then don't break contact. Slide a little slower, grab the base a little harder, dig your spikes into the dirt a little more to stop your forward motion. It's within YOUR control, runner, to maintain contact with the bag--the fact that it was a bit easier in the past for you to obscure your breaking contact does not make you the victim here. If you mess up, expect the rule to be called against you, even if you only broke contact for a millisecond and by a fraction of an inch. The rule does not state how long or how far you may stray while being tagged. It merely states that you may NOT break contact while being tagged. The fact that technology has advanced where we can confidently call you out doesn't make you safe.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 11 2022 07:58 PM Re: New slide rules

Yeah, this one's pretty straightforward to me and doesn't need more than a four or five word explanation. If you're tagged while you're off the base, you're out. These arguments that pop up here from time to time, trying to make a case for the opposite -- some grace period where the runner is allowed to break with the base without penalty is crazy talk, as far as I'm concerned.

Frayed Knot Jun 11 2022 08:13 PM Re: New slide rules

My objections aren't that over-slides are being called, but that: - replay is always sold on the idea that ticky-tack calls are somehow not going to be reversed by replay decisions even though there's no way NOT to include them once you open that door. - I don't mind them being examined and then reversed if a team is sure enough to challenge them in real time. But I don't think you should get the right to examine the film Zapruder-like for 15 or 20 seconds first (they say there's a time limit but in reality it's until whenever the mgr decides to give the OK to re-start) before we go into a one-to-two minute delay while they examine 14 angles and then determine that it's probably/maybe more likely than not that he did come off the base for a milli-second at the same time when the glove appeared to be in contact with his pants leg.

Edgy MD Jun 11 2022 09:54 PM Re: New slide rules

I'm not sure what qualifies as a ticky-tack call or whether instant replay was sold as such. The Mets runner was called safe but was clearly and convincingly shown to be out. For what it's worth, the runners have been given a great gift of late in the rules explicitly taking the neighborhood play away from the defense. It's would be silly for runners to then ask for a neighborhood standard for themsleves.

kcmets Jun 11 2022 10:07 PM Re: New slide rules

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=95660 time=1654999118 user_id=68]If you're tagged while you're off the base, you're out.

Yeah, but unfortunately everything has to be a thing these days...

Johnny Lunchbucket Jun 11 2022 10:15 PM Re: New slide rules

We used to have a saying when we played whiffleball, "nothing cheap." You hit it fair but not well enough for the fielder(s)-- usually just a pitcher and maybe one outfielder ti realistically make a play, we called it "cheap," same as a foul. That carried over to a general guide that we played by and was sportsmanlike and ultimately fair for everyone. "Nothing cheap." Fair or foul, if you weren't sure, you erred on the side of "nothing cheap." That's how I'd do it if were a replay official. If you need a million cameras in super slo-mo to reveal that the laws of gravity and energy transfer and the shape of the human body basically make it impossible for a human athlete running 90 feet at top speed to slow down abruptly enough without losing contact for a millisecond with a plastic sandbag, that's cheap. I don't give a shit about how bad batmags is about to make this logic look

batmagadanleadoff Jun 11 2022 10:38 PM Re: New slide rules

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: I don't give a shit about how bad batmags is about to make this logic look Well then I won't bother. Anyways, I think I'm gonna switch over to. TCM for some "Noir Alley". The Mets really needed for that Lindor fly out to travel another 10 or 15 feet.

roger_that Jun 12 2022 02:58 AM Re: New slide rules

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: I don't give a shit about how bad batmags is about to make this logic look Can I get a shot at ya first? How does this not justify the neighborhood play? How is this not merely a hidebound opposition to technology?

Johnny Lunchbucket Jun 12 2022 06:29 AM Re: New slide rules

I not under any illusion I'm gonna convince you, but the neighborhood play is "cheap." I don't like it, so no need to go there. And I'm not opposed to technology I just don't feel comfortable that it's application necessarily eliminates all grey areas for the better. What I've argued here before is that there are too many cases where the rules of baseball and the rules of physics aren't in perfect alignment and that video's role in the game shouldn't be to inadvertently reveal that under the pretense of doling out justice, but rather to ensure fairness within an imperfect world. So in a matter of taste, I'd prefer that in cases of where video shows a runner made contact with the bag prior to a tag-- and in the judgment of an official that whatever momentary and barely perceptible "bounce" that can be associated with the physics of slowing momentum at the bag and that doesn't reflect an error on the part of the baserunner--prolonged lack of contact, or oversliding the bag entirely etc.--that be considered "cheap." I suppose what I might prefer actually--and surely isn't a "hidebound opposition to technology"--would be to first study the physics of all plays and incorporate them into review too. They already know the speed of the runner and im sure they could also determine his mass, the starting point and angle of the slide, the height and curvature of the base etc etc etc to determine the difference between disapating energy and baserunning error. I suspect but wouldn't know that there is a certain speed at which maintaining constant contact with a base on a slide isn't physically possible

Ceetar Jun 12 2022 07:12 AM Re: New slide rules

it's not really about the physics of if you can maintain contact, but the decisions of the runner to not slow down even a little, to slide headfirst, etc. They've been getting away with it for decades. how about we give runners a bracelet that glows red when you're not safe, but when you connect and close the circuit with the base, it glows green. Or, if we want to give a little leeway, we can make the bases bigger. Less collisions at first, more room to slide/grab/hold, slightly less distance (you could easily adjust this) means more successes, making SB a littlie more worthwhile than they are. You could also rule the play dead when a single runner tries to steal a base, once he touches the bag. "He got there first". Of course, that means he'll never advance on a bad throw. I like it how it is. black and white. you come off, you're out. Stay on the bases, 3 islands of safety in a sea of OUT. Wander off even a second and a shark can get ya.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 12 2022 07:43 AM Re: New slide rules

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: I suppose what I might prefer actually--and surely isn't a "hidebound opposition to technology"-- Maybe no checked swing should ever be called a strike, either, because how the hell is a batter supposed to stop his swing halfway through when he's trying to mash the ball till its threads unravel like in "°!The Natural "? Anyway, he sure likes that "hidebound" word.

Ceetar Jun 12 2022 07:51 AM Re: New slide rules

Maybe no checked swing should ever be called a strike, either, because how the hell is a batter supposed to stop his swing halfway through when he's trying to mash the ball till its threads unravel like in "°!The Natural "? I agree. no checked swings. if you try to stop swinging in any way before the ball arrives, it's not a swing.

batmagadanleadoff Jun 12 2022 07:53 AM Re: New slide rules

/snarky comment.

Willets Point Jun 12 2022 07:55 AM Re: New slide rules

The check swing is one of those things about baseball - as discussed in another thread - that only makes sense because it's existed forever.

Johnny Lunchbucket Jun 12 2022 08:15 AM Re: New slide rules

Maybe, not increasing the size of the base, but it's height could result in fewer inadvertent disconnections. Just spitballing here. I know everyone is spoiling for a fight instead.

MFS62 Jun 12 2022 09:18 AM Re: New slide rules

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Maybe, not increasing the size of the base, but it's height could result in fewer inadvertent disconnections. Just spitballing here. I know everyone is spoiling for a fight instead. That seems like a very logical solution (if they feel they have to do something). And that's why it would never happen. Later

Johnny Lunchbucket Jun 12 2022 09:31 AM Re: New slide rules

It seems like everything ought to be on the table given how disatisfying the whole replay experience is,, despite how hardcore one might be on interpretation. There's probably some good reasons that bases are the shape they are that I could be overlooking

roger_that Jun 12 2022 09:41 AM Re: New slide rules

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: everyone is spoiling for a fight instead. No, I appreciate your reasonableness and wish to emulate it. Ideally, I'd like to do away with human umpires and their screwy judgment, emotions, opinions, personalities altogether, and I think replay allows us to achieve that long-sought goal as much as possible. The "resistance to change" crowd, though, I fear, sees their subjectivity as a traditional part of the game. Before replay was viable, I heard a lot of arguments about it wasting time, and I argued back that it would actually save time, as well as providing accuracy and closure, in that what would be eliminated is a lot of pointless jawing matches between umps and managers. They came back "Biut that's the greatest part of the game!!!"

Willets Point Jun 12 2022 09:51 AM Re: New slide rules

Velcro hook bases and Velcro hoop pants?

roger_that Jun 12 2022 10:57 AM Re: New slide rules

And then you'd have baserunners who see the ball thrown wildly attempt to rise to their feet to take the next base but, instead, are writhing helplessly like a mouse caught in a glue trap? I'd pay good money to see that.

Johnny Lunchbucket Jun 12 2022 11:23 AM Re: New slide rules

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: everyone is spoiling for a fight instead. No, I appreciate your reasonableness and wish to emulate it. Thanks! /cues "we are the world " / I do like umpires, warts and all -- its part of the charm and heritage for me that goes into my faith in and admiration of baseball as a thing... but realize benefits of a more accurate game resulting fom replay-- I just don't like the execution and all the instances very much in a matter of taste. There are other matters in today's game where resistance to change plays out among fans and I'm on the "progressive" side-- like for example the streaming TV movement and all the hate for national broadcasts which I express a lot less of than many others in this room. Sure it's inconvenient, and they suck, but there's a cultural world into which baseball probably needs a better fit for consumption over the long term that gets trampled every time this comes up.

kcmets Jun 12 2022 11:24 AM Re: New slide rules

How 'bout we just put the runner on the honor system? Runner over- slides the base a little and just as he's lunging back to get a hand on the bag the second baseman seemingly tags him at the same time. P 1: I got him, he was off the bag! Ump: Yeah I dunno. P 1: Check the replay, I got him! Ump: You know I can't do that any more, we're on the honor system. Did you get in safe, son? P 2: I totally got back, Blue. Really, I did! Ump: SAFE!!

Edgy MD Jun 12 2022 11:34 AM Re: New slide rules

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: Maybe, not increasing the size of the base, but it's height could result in fewer inadvertent disconnections. Just spitballing here. I know everyone is spoiling for a fight instead. That seems like a very logical solution (if they feel they have to do something). And that's why it would never happen. Later I would discourage fatalism. Plenty of logical things come to pass if reasonable people make reasonable cases.

roger_that Jun 12 2022 11:36 AM Re: New slide rules

How 'bout we just put the runner on the honor system? * I was arguing with a buddy, who loves golf (I find it vile and offensive), and who explained to me that the beauty part of the game is that it depends on every player's individual honor to call penalties on himself. He says, "You can learn so much about people's character by how they penalize themselves," and i said, "Yeah? So if you're playing a scumbag like Trump who cheats and lies for practice and on principle, you lose every game?" and he sez "That's why I don't play with Trump."

Willets Point Jun 12 2022 12:04 PM Re: New slide rules

=roger_that post_id=95729 time=1655053031 user_id=128] And then you'd have baserunners who see the ball thrown wildly attempt to rise to their feet to take the next base but, instead, are writhing helplessly like a mouse caught in a glue trap? I'd pay good money to see that.

Better yet if the base pulls out of the ground and sticks to his crotch as he runs.

Johnny Lunchbucket Jun 12 2022 12:11 PM Re: New slide rules

Ultimate Frisbee grew up as things invented in the 60s and often performed by high people do, with a woven-in antiauthorianism in its rules that have become problematic at the highest physical level. So, call your own fouls, no referees, poor sportmanship is "against the rules" as "spirit of the game" trumps all. It took years of debate just to get anyone agree to a kind of "observer" system they use now in high-level play. Before that happened the so-called spirit often became the stress on the game itself as jock-first players knew it could be exploited.

nymr83 Jun 12 2022 01:39 PM Re: New slide rules

Willets Point wrote: The check swing is one of those things about baseball - as discussed in another thread - that only makes sense because it's existed forever. Well, even without the "check swing" you would need some sort of rule to govern what constitutes a swinging strike. if the batter lifts his hands slightly but doesnt swing is that it? what if the bat moves a little forward? i think it should need to cross the plane of the back of homeplate and that is it, forget "check" swinging.

nymr83 Jun 12 2022 01:44 PM Re: New slide rules

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote: I don't give a shit about how bad batmags is about to make this logic look Can I get a shot at ya first? How does this not justify the neighborhood play? How is this not merely a hidebound opposition to technology? I agree 100% with Batmags that if you came off the base and were tagged you are out. we don't need ambiguity in that rule. The use of technology (ie replay) is another story. If technology can help us make the right call then I favor technology - robot strike zone would be excellent because it would improve the accuracy of calls without wasting time. Replay wastes time. the question of how to balance that wasted time with increased accuracy is the difficult part of the equation, to me. I think the way to do it is that each team gets one challenge and can keep challenging until they get one wrong, and the homeplate umpire needs to ENFORCE a ten second rule for the manager to challenge at which point they lose their right to do so.

Edgy MD Jun 12 2022 01:53 PM Re: New slide rules

Just not letting managers call their own replay guy, and instead forcing them to make a decision about whether to make a challenge based on their own naked eyes, would cut about a million hours of time.

Willets Point Jun 12 2022 05:52 PM Re: New slide rules

I've always favored having a time limit for video reviews. Have a video ump watching live feeds at every game and be ready to review immediately upon challenge. I'd even allow the video ump to initiate a challenge if they think the field umps missed something. Either way 30 seconds to determine what happened or the call on the field stands.

kcmets Jun 12 2022 07:01 PM Re: New slide rules

Right, but that's too sensible.