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1969!!!!!!

roger_that
Jun 28 2022 07:05 AM
Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jun 28 2022 09:25 AM

OK, this is it, the 1969th thread on the CPF Baseball Forum, which I declare devoted to discussing the 1969 Mets. I'm posting this now to keep anyone else from slipping a new thread into this slot. More later.



On Edit: Actually no rush to sign off, since I can edit this, the glorious initial post in the 1969th thread, for at least a while (not sure of the edit window, if any) but I just wanted to note that this squad has gone beyond myth into ur-myth for me, and its events have taken on a significance in my life that exceeds fanship and sports.



For example, I have instructed my kids that my mental acuity is to be appraised, and found wanting, on the first day I am unable to recite the names of all 25 1969 Mets within two minutes' time.



And I immediately faced a problem there, because I discovered that, in fact, I couldn't actually perform that feat of mental legerdemain. I could recite the names of 27 or 30 Mets who played in 1969, no problem, but nailing down the identity of the 25th man on the World Series roster was a sticky point that I was unable to resolve easily.



What I did remember was that Bobby Pfeil, their third-string third baseman, was left off the Series roster in order to get it down to 25, and I remembered this as a sign of Gil Hodges' managerial style since, feeling that Pfeil had been a part of his team all season long, he allowed Pfeil to suit up, despite being ineligible to play in the Series.



What I can't quite remember-- and baseball-reference is very little help here because it lists only those who actually played in the Series, not the eligible players who didn't get into a game-- is who was and who wasn't on the Series squad. Which could be a problem, as my kids may be eager to have me put into an old age home.



The pitching staff is of course memorable, not only for its big 1-3 (Seaver, Koosman, Gentry) but also its little 4-6 (Ryan,Cardwell, McAndrew), all very capable starters, and its middle reliever, Koonce, and its closers or firemen or whatever relief aces were called back then (I'm guessing "relief aces"), Taylor and McGraw--that's nine. And Jack DiLauro makes 10, which sounds right. But may not be. We'll return to the pitching staff.



Catchers were Grote and Dyer and Martin, so that's 13, and the infield was Kranepool and Clendenon, Boswell and Weis, Harrelson, and Charles and Garrett, bringing us up to 20. So five outfielders, Jones and Agee, and then in RF we have Shamsky, Swoboda, and Gaspar. So that's twenty-five, and I believe that's right.



Because the Mets used only six pitchers in the series, though, I'm not completely sold on Jack DiLauro, and I can't quite nail down his place on the Series squad. Since I've made this the test of my mental acuity, I'd like to be completely confident that DiLauro was in fact the final piece of the puzzle, and merely being in uniform for the Series doesn't quite cut it (Pfeil). Can anyone confirm DiLauro's eligibility for me and help me stave off being put into assisted living before I'm willing to concede the point? Could Amos Otis have been eligible? Or Jim Gosger? Pretty sure it's DiLauro, but I want to be more than pretty sure.

batmagadanleadoff
Jun 28 2022 07:15 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 28 2022 07:28 AM

Great. I cant wait for the part where you start insulting everybody that joins in.



You counted every thread, almost 2,000 of them? (No comment, thread. Make your own assumptions. )

whippoorwill
Jun 28 2022 07:22 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

My dad had back surgery in1969. He spent his recovery watching the WS.

He got me hooked on the Mets in 1972 and the rest is history

Fman99
Jun 28 2022 07:28 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

I was destined to be a Mets fan. My folks were married in '69 and I was born in '73.

batmagadanleadoff
Jun 28 2022 07:32 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

=whippoorwill post_id=97579 time=1656422570 user_id=79]
My dad had back surgery in1969. He spent his recovery watching the WS.

He got me hooked on the Mets in 1972 and the rest is history



But do you know who Jesse Hudson is? We once had a thread about him and you participated in that thread.

kcmets
Jun 28 2022 07:52 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=97577 time=1656422109 user_id=68]You counted every thread, almost 2,000 of them? (No comment, thread. Make your own assumptions. )



In the upper right of the screen next to the page numbers there is a thread

count. I only just noticed it yesterday when the subject was started.

whippoorwill
Jun 28 2022 07:54 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=97581 time=1656423137 user_id=68]
=whippoorwill post_id=97579 time=1656422570 user_id=79]
My dad had back surgery in1969. He spent his recovery watching the WS.

He got me hooked on the Mets in 1972 and the rest is history



But do you know who Jesse Hudson is? We once had a thread about him and you participated in that thread.


What did I say?

batmagadanleadoff
Jun 28 2022 08:10 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Jack DiLauro was on the post-season roster. 100% certain of that. Not a shred of doubt. I had to get this post in here as quick as possible before somebody else beat me to it, so that the thread-starter wouildn't go off on a rant, declaring that I'd never heard of Dilauro because I wasn't the first to set the record straight on his '69 post-season eligibility.

roger_that
Jun 28 2022 08:24 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Does anyone have anything resembling evidence of DiLauro's place on the 1969 World Series roster? Memories are pretty unreliable, mine as well as everyone's else, so what I'm looking for is documentation.

kcmets
Jun 28 2022 08:26 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 28 2022 08:43 AM

Does anyone have this book?



The Miracle Has Landed: The Amazin' Story of How the 1969 Mets Shocked the World

by Matthew Silverman (Goodreads Author) (Editor)




I have it but can't find it. Pretty sure a couple of regulars here contributed. Pissing

me off because all my Mets books are in one place and it's a large book kind hard

to misplace...

Willets Point
Jun 28 2022 08:32 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

=Fman99 post_id=97580 time=1656422939 user_id=86]
I was destined to be a Mets fan. My folks were married in '69 and I was born in '73.



Me too on both counts.

batmagadanleadoff
Jun 28 2022 08:33 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 28 2022 08:34 AM

=roger_that post_id=97591 time=1656426240 user_id=128]
Does anyone have anything resembling evidence of DiLauro's place on the 1969 World Series roster? Memories are pretty unreliable, mine as well as everyone's else, so what I'm looking for is documentation.





I do. Who the hell said I was going by memory? But you know what? I'm not gonna show it to you. Figure out why. What is this, some roundabout way of saying that I'm not credible? It's another insult.

Edgy MD
Jun 28 2022 08:34 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Neither of the "Mets from Mobile" were actually literally from Mobile. Tommie Agee was born in Magnolia, a tiny unincorporated community and actually closer to Montgomery. Cleon Jones was from Pleateau/Africatown (aka AfricaTown) just north of town. The 1969 Met who literally hailed from Mobile was Amos Otis.



The city of Mobile and surrounding area are nonetheless ridiculously fertile as far as producing baseball greats, analogous to San Pedro de Marcoris. Just counting Hall-of-Famers (and only those born within city limits), you've got Hank Aaron, Ozzie Smith, Willie McCovey, and Satchell Paige. A whole lot of Tommy Davises supplement those four, and once you bring in the outlying communities, you've got a powerhouse. Birmingham is almost as scary if you give them Willie Mays, born just west of the city in Westfield. Current Met and future Hall-of-Famer Locke St. John is also a Birmingham native.

seawolf17
Jun 28 2022 08:39 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!


Does anyone have anything resembling evidence of DiLauro's place on the 1969 World Series roster? Memories are pretty unreliable, mine as well as everyone's else, so what I'm looking for is documentation.


Knew I'd seen this somewhere, but I found the citation.



https://www.cantonrep.com/story/news/2022/01/28/jack-dilauro-akron-autograph-requests-mail-amazin-miracle-new-york-mets-1969-world-series-mlb/6570864001/



DiLauro didn't appear in the playoff games vs. Atlanta, nor the World Series vs. the Orioles. Not because he was in the doghouse. The Mets starters mostly dominated, so he wasn't needed in relief.



"If I'd have pitched, that would have meant we were in trouble; and we never really were," he explained.



DiLauro was in the bullpen when Jones, the Mets' leftfielder caught a fly ball off the bat of Dave Johnson to end Game 5 of the World Series. Jones famously went down on one knee to celebrate the title.



Shea Stadium erupted. Fans stormed the field. DiLauro and the pitchers headed to the clubhouse. That fall, he and other players made personal appearances throughout the New York area.

batmagadanleadoff
Jun 28 2022 08:40 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jun 28 2022 10:45 AM

The 1969 Mets are one the most beloved teams in baseball history. Still are even though it's likely that the majority of fans who saw this squad play in real time, live, are no longer with us.





And here's some proof of their still-lasting popularity. I snapped a shot of this street graffiti a few months ago and have been meaning to post the photo on this forum ever since. I just couldn't figure out where to post it and I wasn't in the mood to start a new thread. But this thread presents the perfect opportunity.





[FIMG=333]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52180019465_44f8d565db_k.jpg[/FIMG]

batmagadanleadoff
Jun 28 2022 08:42 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

=seawolf17 post_id=97598 time=1656427198 user_id=91]


DiLauro didn't appear in the playoff games vs. Atlanta, nor the World Series vs. the Orioles. Not because he was in the doghouse. The Mets starters mostly dominated ....



Jim McAndrew was another '69 post-season eligible no-show. McAndrew has the unusual distinction of also being on the Mets 1973 post-season roster, without having appeared in any of the '73 post-season games, either.

roger_that
Jun 28 2022 09:18 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!



Does anyone have anything resembling evidence of DiLauro's place on the 1969 World Series roster? Memories are pretty unreliable, mine as well as everyone's else, so what I'm looking for is documentation.


Knew I'd seen this somewhere, but I found the citation.



https://www.cantonrep.com/story/news/2022/01/28/jack-dilauro-akron-autograph-requests-mail-amazin-miracle-new-york-mets-1969-world-series-mlb/6570864001/




Thank you. Close enough for me to feel confident that I'll pass my own test for mental acuity, though it is kind of amazin' that solid official evidence is so hard to come by, isn't it?



As to Jones' and Agee's hometown, there's some interesting history there--the last slave ship from Africa landed there, or near there, and there's an entire Africa-town community there that Jones, I believe, contributes to. I'll see if I can find the story on my hard drive somewhere.

batmagadanleadoff
Jun 28 2022 09:23 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

I collected the 1970 Topps set when I was a kid and had many doubles of Met Bobby Pfeil's Mets card pictured below. Pfeil's baseball card photo had to have been taken in 1969 because that was his lone season with the Mets. To this day, I'm still very familiar with Pfeil's card, his only Topps Mets card, because I had many copies of it and because Pfeil's card came out in the 1st series, and so I would have looked at it, held it, handled it and played with it more than with other cards from that set that were released later in the calendar year.



The Mets traded Pfeil to Philadelphia early in the '70 season so, logically, Pfeil's '70 Mets stint would've been brief anyways. That is, if Pfeil even had a Mets stint in 1970. He didn't. At least not with the big club. Pfeil's entire '70 Met stint was spent in the minors.



So me and my fellow Mets fan friends (not that there were many Yankees fans my age in NYC in 1970) never got to see Pfeil live and in real time in a Mets uni in 1970. Eventually, an urban legend began to spread in my neighborhood and at the school I attended that the reason Pfeil was no longer on the Mets was that during the wild 1969 World Series celebration, some fan stole Pfeil's batting helmet and so the Mets, suddenly unable to properly clothe Pfeil, were forced to trade him, an absurd tale, but maybe one that a grade schooler might fall for. Anybody else ever heard this tale?





[IMG]https://img.comc.com/i/Baseball/1970/Topps---Base/99/Bobby-Pfeil.jpg?id=54e601d9-fa25-40b2-b3e5-b73352d1c9c8&size=original[/IMG]

batmagadanleadoff
Jun 28 2022 09:30 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

=roger_that post_id=97605 time=1656429502 user_id=128] it is kind of amazin' that solid official evidence [of Dilauro's post-season eligibility] is so hard to come by, isn't it?






Are you asking? Because if you are, it isn't hard to come by at all. Maybe it's hard for you.

Edgy MD
Jun 28 2022 09:37 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

To judge by appearances, the special seating erected behind Cleon was reserved for service members, including what appear to be a group of young wounded vets returned from the field.



Props to any adult wheelchair-bound fan who still brings his glove to the game.



https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5ybgGfVAAAMpCC.jpg:large>

whippoorwill
Jun 28 2022 09:40 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

=batmagadanleadoff post_id=97601 time=1656427376 user_id=68]
=seawolf17 post_id=97598 time=1656427198 user_id=91]


DiLauro didn't appear in the playoff games vs. Atlanta, nor the World Series vs. the Orioles. Not because he was in the doghouse. The Mets starters mostly dominated ....



Jim McAndrew was another '69 post-season eligible no-show. McAndrew has the unusual distinction of also being on the Mets 1973 post-season roster, without having appeared in any of the '73 post-season games, either.


That's sad! I remember him pitching quite a bit during the regular season



Is he the one they called ‘Moms' or something like that?

batmagadanleadoff
Jun 28 2022 09:47 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

=whippoorwill post_id=97585 time=1656424490 user_id=79]
=batmagadanleadoff post_id=97581 time=1656423137 user_id=68]
=whippoorwill post_id=97579 time=1656422570 user_id=79]
My dad had back surgery in1969. He spent his recovery watching the WS.

He got me hooked on the Mets in 1972 and the rest is history



But do you know who Jesse Hudson is? We once had a thread about him and you participated in that thread.


What did I say?




Well, this was, kind of, a trick question because the thread was really about Vida Blue. We used to have a tradition here, very briefly, where, once a year, we'd post, apropos of nothing, many pictures of Vida Blue. what I remember most about those annual posts was Edgy professing his love for the cover of Vida Blue on a 1971 issue of Sports Illustrated.



One year, I started the thread by offering a quiz to guess Vida Blue's primary wide receiver target on Blue's high school football team. Blue was the team's quarterback. I gave a hint that the receiver we were looking for was a one-time Met, who turned out to be '69er Jesse Hudson, a fringe pitcher whose entire MLB career consisted of a few innings pitched for the '69 Mets.



You guessed Rusty Staub.

roger_that
Jun 28 2022 09:48 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

=whippoorwill post_id=97612 time=1656430831 user_id=79]


Is he the one they called ‘Moms' or something like that?



Yeah, he was a real, soft-spoken, modest sort of guy and they teased him about that. I thought he got jobbed by the tyranny of W-L records--he lost a bunch of games that the Mets didn't score for him and he never really got a shot a full-time starting job, I think, in large part because of that.

whippoorwill
Jun 28 2022 10:17 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

These days he'd be considered an ace

Johnny Lunchbucket
Jun 28 2022 10:22 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!


Does anyone have this book?



The Miracle Has Landed: The Amazin' Story of How the 1969 Mets Shocked the World

by Matthew Silverman (Goodreads Author) (Editor)




I have it but can't find it. Pretty sure a couple of regulars here contributed. Pissing

me off because all my Mets books are in one place and it's a large book kind hard

to misplace...


I have a copy on the shelf right behind me. Some shitty writers contributed to that one

Frayed Knot
Jun 29 2022 08:16 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!





Is he the one they called ‘Moms' or something like that?


Yeah, he was a real, soft-spoken, modest sort of guy and they teased him about that. I thought he got jobbed by the tyranny of W-L records--he lost a bunch of games that the Mets didn't score for him and he never really got a shot a full-time starting job, I think, in large part because of that.


We heard that Jim was a the type to hang around the Post Office and catch up on the gossip kind of guy when back in his home town.

But he wasn't there when we dropped by



https://www.instagram.com/p/CTDjBCeLAMAOHyt5hbhed8GgYpabdFTgloRa-00/

whippoorwill
Jun 29 2022 08:18 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Ach not an instagram member

Edgy MD
Jun 29 2022 08:42 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Me clicking an Instagram link:



"Well, I haven't really been to Instagram in a long time. Might as well see what this is abou ... HOLY SHNIKEE!! I'm being followed by a LOT of well endowed young women! I wonder what triggered their interest in me!"

whippoorwill
Jun 29 2022 08:53 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

It's your smile :)

Johnny Lunchbucket
Jun 29 2022 08:58 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

[BLOCKQUOTE]So me and my fellow Mets fan friends (not that there were many Yankees fans my age in NYC in 1970) never got to see Pfeil live and in real time in a Mets uni in 1970. Eventually, an urban legend began to spread in my neighborhood and at the school I attended that the reason Pfeil was no longer on the Mets was that during the wild 1969 World Series celebration, some fan stole Pfeil's batting helmet and so the Mets, suddenly unable to properly clothe Pfeil, were forced to trade him, an absurd tale, but maybe one that a grade schooler might fall for. Anybody else ever heard this tale?[/BLOCKQUOTE]


No-- but this is great story

roger_that
Jun 30 2022 01:31 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jun 30 2022 02:07 PM

In re 1969, this is a good summer to reflect on Gil Hodges' managerial skills. I don't know if any other Met manager--not Davey Johnson, not Bobby V., not Terry Collins-- was spoken of with the respect from his players that Hodges had and has from his. His early death, of course, sanctifies his life, but I think it's more than that. He had a very strange place in Mets history, partly because he managed the miracle of 1969, but there's more. He was one of the last "authoritarian" managers, but unlike Billy Martin, Earl Weaver, Leo Durocher, he wasn't a loudmouthed, bad-tempered dickhead either to his players or to the press, but rather a soft-spoken authority figure of a type that is rare in leadership generally.



It's hard to say whether Gil could have been successful if he'd managed into the 1980s and beyond (he would have turned only 60 in the mid-1980s, hard as it is to imagine him managing the Mets through the Berra-Frazier-Torre-Bamberger years) when the players became so much more outspoken about their rights, their salaries, and their opinions, but I like to think he would have figured out a way to adapt to the free agency MLB while giving up little of his stern managerial style. His is the first HoF induction that I've ever been been tempted to attend in person.

Edgy MD
Jun 30 2022 01:40 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

I'm sure if we think about it, there have been more than a few managers in later years who projected authority in a similar matter, but I imagine part of what you speak of as having been lost is a byproduct in part of the loss of an era where most leaders had meaningful military service.



It didn't necessarily make a guy a better person, but it taught a feller how to carry himself in front of underlings in a way that reminded them to respect the rank.



And with the players all having either served in the military, done some time in the reserves, or being scared shit they would have to, they learned quickly to respect such guys whether they liked them or not.



A guy like Gil Hodges, who players were deeply scared of at the surface, but came to like one-on-one, was the kind of dude people went to the mat for. It also helped that there were so many stories throughout baseball about his legendary strength that he almost never had to display it.

roger_that
Jun 30 2022 02:22 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

"his legendary strength that he almost never had to display it"



That, too. But more.



I started writing an article about authoritarian-style managers, which was probably close to 100% of managers (I'd guess at least 80% pre-1960) and the rise of more sensitive types, which is the majority today. No manager today would ever rip his players publicly, get into fistfights with them, abuse and denigrate them in the clubhouse, and so on. Anyone who tried would make headlines, and probably get fired PDQ but the reason I say Gil might have been able, had he lived, to manage into the modern era is that screaming, punching, badmouthing people wasn't his personal style but he still projected strength.



Not that he was perfect for his time or for ours. He was extremely decisive, as managers go, not doing a lot of experimenting, waffling, second-guessing himself--he made a decision, and he stuck with it, sometimes when it wasn't working out so well. One decision, that I think was very bad for the franchise, was that I think he soured on Nolan Ryan, held him back when he was a Met, and gave the green light when management was looking to trade him. I see Hodges' hand behind a lot of the deals they did for American Leaguers whom he'd gotten to see in his years managing the Senators. This worked out well sometimes--obviously, Gil pushed hard to get Tommie Agee-- but it also, I think, got us Fregosi and Joe Foy and other moves that worked out poorly. His opinion of Ryan was strange, partly because he had witnessed, as a player, upclose and personal, the very slow development of Sandy Koufax who suffered from most of Ryan's problems, so you'd think he would have been Ryan's biggest fan, but no.

Johnny Lunchbucket
Jun 30 2022 02:52 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Otis was a guy who for whatever reason, got on Gils bad side and was fumbled away. I wanna pin the Ryan trade on the GM who succeeded Johhny Murphy, but i don't know how much he vs. Gil was actually responsible. One thing I've detected at times in Mets history was, a lack of "bench strength" when front office people get whacked, or die

roger_that
Jun 30 2022 04:29 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote:

Otis was a guy who for whatever reason, got on Gils bad side and was fumbled away. I wanna pin the Ryan trade on the GM who succeeded Johhny Murphy, but i don't know how much he vs. Gil was actually responsible. One thing I've detected at times in Mets history was, a lack of "bench strength" when front office people get whacked, or die

That was Bob Scheffing. But sabr's bio on Amos Otis screws up a lot of details [url]https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/amos-otis/, including mixing Murphy up with broadcaster Bob Murphy. The nut quote, though, has Gil Hodges meeting Otis at the 1970 All-Star and saying "Good Luck" to him, which Otis noted was about as many words as Hodges had said to him in his two seasons with the Mets. Scheffing was a newbie, thrust into the GM spot when Johnny Murphy died, and I think it's safe to read between the lines and make Hodges the moving force behind the Otis deal. Otis certainly pinned the blame on Hodges, and I think he was correct. As I say, Hodges was very decisive, and as sabr says, he was a man of few words who didn't explain things to his players as much as he made decisions and let the players adjust to his choices, which Otis and Ryan found difficult. This is the downside to Gil's leadership style--the players who get the playing time say "He leaves us alone and lets us do our job" but the ones who don't get pissed off and bitter.

Edgy MD
Jun 30 2022 04:38 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

For what it's worth, the online versions of my SABR bios on Ed Charles and Donn Clendennon are very badly edited — or simply not edited at all. Embarrassingly so. The versions in the book are mostly tight, fact-checked, and well formatted, but I've never successfully gotten them swapped into place for the online versions. I don't know if the editor turned in the early versions to SABR based on a tight deadline or by accident, but maybe the same thing happened to the author of the Otis bio, Bill Lamberty.



As far as Hodges being behind the Otis trade, I think we're still too fact-poor to put ourselves in "safe to say" territory. We're mostly in the realm of speculation, though I'll accept "likely."



As far as Scheffing, he's also in the middle of the Mets-didn't-draft-Reggie-Jackson-because-of-racism argument, so he just can't escape the Mets World of Unsubstantiated Conclusions. Maybe he has an unpublished memoir somewhere.

roger_that
Jun 30 2022 05:58 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Today is Ron Swoboda's birthday, by the way, an interesting date because if he had been born a few hours later, he would be listed in bbref as a whole year younger.

roger_that
Jun 30 2022 06:19 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edgy MD wrote:

For what it's worth, the online versions of my SABR bios on Ed Charles and Donn Clendennon are very badly edited — or simply not edited at all. Embarrassingly so. The versions in the book are mostly tight, fact-checked, and well formatted, but I've never successfully gotten them swapped into place for the online versions. I don't know if the editor turned in the early versions to SABR based on a tight deadline or by accident, but maybe the same thing happened to the author of the Otis bio, Bill Lamberty.


Yeah, they're pretty messed up. A few years ago, I wondered why they hadn't fixed a pretty fixable generic problem--that of rendering pitchers' innings in 1/3 or 2/3rds form. In other words, you read things like "Job Loew pitched 173? innings in 1932" the question mark being a placeholder for a partial inning. The answer I got from the chief executive in charge of editing sabr bios was "Stop asking us questions, we're doing just fine here, no thanks to you" roughly translated. When I suggested that it would be simpler, and less confusing, if they'd just dropped the question mark and round off the number of innings, I got a less polite response, so I gave up on offering suggestions.





It's still going on, btw. I don't know how many innings is ? innings.

Ceetar
Jun 30 2022 06:58 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

in regex, ? means the previous character is optional. So that means it's either 173 or 17 IP, clearly.

kcmets
Jun 30 2022 07:58 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edgy MD wrote:
For what it's worth, the online versions of my SABR bios on Ed Charles and Donn Clendennon are very badly edited — or simply not edited at all. Embarrassingly so. The versions in the book are mostly tight, fact-checked, and well formatted, but I've never successfully gotten them swapped into place for the online versions.


That's nutty. I have pretty good communication with the national SABR office.

I can probably help with this, or at least get an explanation as to why they won't

change it. I mean, it's a SABR book right? Why have online bios different than in

a published book? Nutty, wait already said that...

Edgy MD
Jun 30 2022 08:02 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

That might help.



I can send you a PDF of a scan from the book, but it'll take a while and search of three or so computers to find a clean copy of the text.

Edgy MD
Jun 30 2022 08:05 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Here we go:



Ed Charles



Donn Clendenon



If I have to extract that text from the PDFs, so be it, but it might take me a while.

kcmets
Jun 30 2022 08:10 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edgy MD wrote:
If I have to extract that text from the PDFs, so be it, but it might take me a while.


I can do that. Email the files.

Edgy MD
Jun 30 2022 08:14 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Done!

roger_that
Jul 01 2022 05:41 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Frayed Knot wrote:





Is he the one they called ‘Moms' or something like that?


Yeah, he was a real, soft-spoken, modest sort of guy and they teased him about that. I thought he got jobbed by the tyranny of W-L records--he lost a bunch of games that the Mets didn't score for him and he never really got a shot a full-time starting job, I think, in large part because of that.


We heard that Jim was a the type to hang around the Post Office and catch up on the gossip kind of guy when back in his home town.

But he wasn't there when we dropped by



https://www.instagram.com/p/CTDjBCeLAMAOHyt5hbhed8GgYpabdFTgloRa-00/


Wait--is that Jim McA himself? On the left I presume? Or two randos photobombing McA's hometown PO? Is there a story here? Do tell.

Edgy MD
Jul 01 2022 05:57 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Those two are the worst sort of randos.

Johnny Lunchbucket
Jul 01 2022 05:59 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Yes I know who scheffing is, and that he was thrust into position, but in a sense Johnny Murphy was as well, and it would seem the need for executive bench strength heightened given the fact that was so old.



History gives Murphy a lot of credit, but he was basically in the right place at the right time to benefit from the moves Devine made and the halo around the 69 club. I'm not suggesting he was incompetent, in fact it could be argued that he was wise to leave well enough alone until taking advantage of an opportunity in the Clendonon trade.



But not hiring his own successor was a mistake that doubled down on the fact that he too was an unexpected appointee due to Devine's sudden departure.



In my mind, the Mets ought to have done more to make Devine happy inasmuch as he would prove to have a very long and successful career ahead of him... and came from a point of view that the GMs job was to improve the club not just be sure the players don't get paid well. Instead they seemed to say let's give this important job to whoever the senior guy who happens to be around is, and the problem with that was Murphy didn't seem to have his successor in mind either, as the next man up, Scheffing, also wasn't destinted for success.



Consequential decisions post 69 were nearly all pretty bad. Berra hiring, drafting and scouting deteriorated, one bad trade trade after another, wrong posture and behavior once the player union made progress, wrong GM, wrong manager, and it sorta all points to there not really being an overarching guiding philosophy that was imaginative and forward looking, and that wasted of the potential of a young World Series winner that should have plowed their momentum into getting better all around.



This same kind of pattern would repeat itself often in the Wilpon era.

roger_that
Jul 01 2022 06:17 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

That seems like a fair and judicious reading of the overall situation to me. You've obviously devoted a thought of serious thinking to this subject. Sorry I took your "the guy who succeeded Murphy" line as implying you didn't remember who that was--plainly, you know this stuff pretty thoroughly.



I did a bit of delving into McA's career stats to see if I could figure out how he earned his "pitch good, get shitty W-L record" rep and it turns out it ain't hard to find: his first start was against Bob Gibson, 1 ER, 6 IP, and a 2-0 loss, next outing a 2-0 loss to the Dodgers, next a seven-inning 1-0 loss to the Giants, and fourth another 1-0 loss to the Astros. So that's an 0-4 W-L record and a 1.82 ERA.



Made an impression on me, which the rest of his hard-luck career did not dispel.

Edgy MD
Jul 01 2022 07:04 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

It's a scenario that plays itself out in history and literature all the time. An aging executive — inexpert and not particularly engaged in management — exploited by an ambitious mediocrity of an advisor.

Frayed Knot
Jul 01 2022 09:22 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

=roger_that post_id=97853 time=1656675695 user_id=128]


Wait--is that Jim McA himself? On the left I presume?



Please tell me you don't think the guy on the left looks like he's nearly 80 y/o

kcmets
Jul 01 2022 09:35 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edgy MD wrote:

Those two are the worst sort of randos.


I didn't get this earlier this morning. Gotta click on the instagram link...

roger_that
Jul 01 2022 10:03 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Frayed Knot wrote:

=roger_that post_id=97853 time=1656675695 user_id=128]


Wait--is that Jim McA himself? On the left I presume?


Please tell me you don't think the guy on the left looks like he's nearly 80 y/o





No, not really. He just looks taller, and McA was 6'2, and sort of facially resembles the guy on the left more than the guy on the right.

Edgy MD
Jul 01 2022 11:16 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Was McAndrew the only 1969 Met who had a big league son?

Frayed Knot
Jul 01 2022 11:29 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

JMcA, we were told, has lived in Texas for a long time now.

Probably been many years since he was in the bustling metropolis that is Lost Nation, Iowa.

Frayed Knot
Jul 01 2022 11:33 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edgy MD wrote:

Was McAndrew the only 1969 Met who had a big league son?


AFAIK, yes.

batmagadanleadoff
Jul 01 2022 11:35 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Johnny Lunchbucket wrote:

Yes I know who scheffing is, and that he was thrust into position, but in a sense Johnny Murphy was as well, and it would seem the need for executive bench strength heightened given the fact that was so old.



History gives Murphy a lot of credit, but he was basically in the right place at the right time to benefit from the moves Devine made and the halo around the 69 club. I'm not suggesting he was incompetent, in fact it could be argued that he was wise to leave well enough alone until taking advantage of an opportunity in the Clendonon trade.



But not hiring his own successor was a mistake that doubled down on the fact that he too was an unexpected appointee due to Devine's sudden departure.



In my mind, the Mets ought to have done more to make Devine happy inasmuch as he would prove to have a very long and successful career ahead of him... and came from a point of view that the GMs job was to improve the club not just be sure the players don't get paid well. Instead they seemed to say let's give this important job to whoever the senior guy who happens to be around is, and the problem with that was Murphy didn't seem to have his successor in mind either, as the next man up, Scheffing, also wasn't destinted for success.



Consequential decisions post 69 were nearly all pretty bad. Berra hiring, drafting and scouting deteriorated, one bad trade trade after another, wrong posture and behavior once the player union made progress, wrong GM, wrong manager, and it sorta all points to there not really being an overarching guiding philosophy that was imaginative and forward looking, and that wasted of the potential of a young World Series winner that should have plowed their momentum into getting better all around.



This same kind of pattern would repeat itself often in the Wilpon era.


Great history, there. As usual. One of the biggest hits the Mets absorbed from all of this was the eventual defection of Whitey Herzog, who harbored many resentments towards the Mets organization over what Herzog rightfully perceived as a lack of recognition of his accomplishments. Herzog was instrumental in developing the Mets awesome stable of young talent during the second half of the 60s, that was key to the Mets claiming the WS title in '69. Herzog was regarded as a baseball genius by many in the Mets org. Which he was, of course. The last straw for Herzog was getting skipped over for the managerial position that opened up after Gil Hodges's untimely death. Herzog, as we all know, would go on to not only manage, but build and develop powerhouse teams with two different franchises -- the two teams that call Missouri their home.



My favorite Herzog story involves the Mets hunting down an MIA Herzog, who was on a fishing winter vacation at some remote location in the middle of nowhere. I think that Herzog was needed so that the Mets could finalize their trade for Jim Fregosi. Herzog immediately flew into a mini-rage after learning that the Mets had traded Leroy Stanton, a young outfielder recognized by many in the organization as having enormous potential. Herzog didn't think that Fregosi was the solution to the Mets third base problem and certainly wouldn't have given up Stanton for Fregosi. Herzog had yet to find out that Nolan Ryan, of whom Herzog also thought highly of, was also included in the trade.



The saying went that the main purpose of Mets GM's during that post '69 era was not necesarily to acquire good baseball talent, but to ensure that their players weren't paid as much as they ought to have been paid.



Who knows what the Mets post '69 future might have been if Herzog and not Yogi was named Mets manage and Herzog was also given an important say in Mets development. But that'll be for another thread, some day.



I'm so happy that you "passed the audition". The Bob Scheffing audition. I'm so happy that he's now satisfied that you've heard of Scheffing. You must be happy, too, or at least relieved. Having had the pleasure of reading your thoroughly knowledgeable Mets posts over a span of close to 20 years, I couldn't imagine ever asking you or even suggesting that you hadn't heard of Scheffing. And if I'd only joined up here 15 minutes ago, I'd know my place to keep quiet and to not suggest that you were ignorant of Scheffing. It's basic common etiquette. It's how reasonable people behave. At least you got an apology (again). At least he didn't then double down and advance the absurd point that him naming Scheffing first means that you'd never heard of Scheffing. Or that you then faked it and looked up Scheffing only in response to his post to then save face.

Johnny Lunchbucket
Jul 01 2022 12:11 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

FWIW and not to be mean but the reason I said the "successor" was that this fuckin phone auto corrected me to distraction anytime I try to type a name it doesn't know, like scheffing and turns it into a word like "scheming."



The one thing I'll add to the rest of the discussion is, who did value Herzog? Bing Devine, that's who.

Edgy MD
Jul 01 2022 01:23 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

And Casey Stengel, certainly.

Fman99
Jul 01 2022 01:36 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Never knew that Whitey Herzog was a Mets front office type prior to his time in St. Louis. I just assumed his mother birthed him and he popped out wearing a red StL cap

batmagadanleadoff
Jul 01 2022 02:50 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

=Fman99 post_id=97899 time=1656704176 user_id=86]
Never knew that Whitey Herzog was a Mets front office type prior to his time in St. Louis. I just assumed his mother birthed him and he popped out wearing a red StL cap



He was also a third base coach for the Mets. He could do it all.

Edgy MD
Jul 01 2022 04:15 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Also a high-achieving motorsports enthusiast.



https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2022/07/casey-whitey.jppg_.jpg>

batmagadanleadoff
Jul 01 2022 11:23 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edgy MD wrote:

Also a high-achieving motorsports enthusiast.



https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2022/07/casey-whitey.jppg_.jpg>




Wow! Is that the back cover of the Whitey Herzog book? If so, I think I'm gonna buy that one. That pic of Casey on the motorbike, alone, is worth the price of the book.

batmagadanleadoff
Jul 02 2022 01:40 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!


Edgy MD wrote:

Also a high-achieving motorsports enthusiast.



https://metsrostercentral.files.wordpress.com/2022/07/casey-whitey.jppg_.jpg>




Wow! Is that the back cover of the Whitey Herzog book? If so, I think I'm gonna buy that one. That pic of Casey on the motorbike, alone, is worth the price of the book.




You know, Herzog had a big hand in both of the Mets World Series titles. He was instrumental in scouting and developing the young talent that would be key to their first championship in 1969. And then, some 15 years later, he practically singlehandedly traded --no -- traded isn't the right word here-- Herzog gifted Keith Hernandez to the Mets. Gifted. In a fancy box with giftwrapping.

roger_that
Jul 02 2022 01:34 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Iowa has weird town names, or at least memorable ones. In addition to having "Lost Nation" seared into my brain, the hometown of Jack Hamilton, Morning Sun, is similarly seared, mainly because it was Bob Murphy's practice to mention them every time these two men pitched. Murph liked mentioning hometowns: I must be among the few who associate the name "Waco, Texas" not with David Koresh immediately but rather with "Little Alvin Jackson of Waco Texas," which I thought was his full name.



It was practically Homeric, the epithets Murph employed, without much rhyme or reason. He would give players' middle names for no reason at all ("David Arthur Kingman in the on-deck circle...") and I took his epithets as normal, though no other Met announcer used them. Eventually, I saw them as tiresome and old-fashioned and pretty irrelevant, but when I was young I liked to do fulsome over-the-top imitations of Murphy calling games. "The bi-ig righthander from Morning Sun, Iowa, steps on the rubber and takes the signal, and we're underway...."



A huge change in pitching staff management that applied to both Hamilton and McAndrew was the dual starter/reliever roles both of them filled (and Ryan, too, with the Mets). For the past few decades you're either one or the other, but these two guys switched roles like you switch TV channels. Whenever you thought they were starters, they'd spend a month in the bullpen, and vice versa.

batmagadanleadoff
Jul 02 2022 02:21 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

More Waco! Murph loved to point out that Pat Zachry was from Waco, too.


=roger_that post_id=98014 time=1656790499 user_id=128]


A huge change in pitching staff management that applied to both Hamilton and McAndrew was the dual starter/reliever roles both of them filled (and Ryan, too, with the Mets). For the past few decades you're either one or the other, but these two guys switched roles like you switch TV channels. Whenever you thought they were starters, they'd spend a month in the bullpen, and vice versa.



This passage is pretty confusing. First of all, there was no meaningful change to the way the Mets used McAndrew or Hamilton. McAndrew was always primarily a starter, overwhelmingly so only until his last Mets season when his rapidly diminishing effectiveness coupled with the composition of the Mets starting rotation called for McAndrew to start less games and pitch out of the bullpen more frequently. He was traded to the Padres the next season, where he pitched 41 innings and then was out of baseball.



Hamilton never had a dual role with the Mets where as a fan, you'd never know whether he'd start or relieve. He always mainly a reliever with the Mets. He began his Mets stint as a starter where he made 13 starts. The quality of Hamilton's starts declined quickly over those starts ,and that, coupled with the arrival of Bob Shaw and Bob Friend a month or so into Hamilton's first year as a Met, relegated Hamilton to the bullpen, where he'd never again start a game for the Mets over the two seasons he'd spend in the orange and blue. Hamilton was never an interchangeable starter/reliever on the Mets. He was one, and then he was the other.

Edgy MD
Jul 02 2022 03:28 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Waco, TX means Pat Zachry to me.

roger_that
Jul 03 2022 07:42 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!


Does anyone have this book?



The Miracle Has Landed: The Amazin' Story of How the 1969 Mets Shocked the World

by Matthew Silverman (Goodreads Author) (Editor)





Now I do. Quite a good book, so far, with several stories I hadn't seen before, covering some players I haven't thought about in a long time. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.



I stopped buying Mets books around the last time I moved, and pared down my baseball library, but this was available electronically (for free, as a sabr member, which was basically worth the annual dues alone--it's really a great bargain) and doesn't take up any shelf space, which is good because I don't have any. The chapters seem especially well-researched and carefully written, unlike some other Mets books I own.

roger_that
Jul 03 2022 08:26 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Not trying to bust anyone's chops here, especially not if anyone here actually wrote the chapters I'm going to remark upon (Edgy has taken responsibility for the chapters on Charles and Clendenon, both of which I enjoyed) but as I read it, I might come up with a few questions and comments as a way of remembering some fine points about the 1969 Mets. There's a quote from Hodges to Don Cardwell before the World Series that struck me as odd:



‘Cardy, don't feel hurt because you did a great

job all year for us and got us into the playoffs and

this Series, but here's what we're gonna do. Rube

[Walker] and I agreed that we're gonna start Seaver,

Koosman, and Gentry in the three games, and then

we're gonna come back with them. But you're our

seventh game pitcher if it goes seven games.”



Does this seem a strange promise to make? I mean, Seaver, his 25-game winner, could have (and nearly did) pitch excellent winning games in #1 and #4, and for all Hodges knew, he could have thrown an 80-pitch shutout in game 4 and then, in regular rest for game 7, but Hodges is committing to starting Don Freaking Cardwell? Why offer Cardwell a game 7 start at all unless you're sure there's not going to be a game seven? Seems kinda nuts, as told.

roger_that
Jul 03 2022 09:11 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

The Jack DiLauro chapter gave me the documentation I wanted that he was, in fact, on the Series roster. It also provided a quote on Gil Hodges that more or less supports what I'd been speculating about his managerial style, particularly his communication with young players:



"I wasn't very comfortable with

Gil Hodges there. He just never talked to me. I don't

think he talked to anybody other than his coaches.

I don't think there was a single player on that team

who had a one- to- one with Gil. I hung out with the other

rinky- dinks on the

team, [Rod] Gaspar, Bobby Pfeil after he came up

from Tidewater, a couple of the scrubs. I got close to

Nolan Ryan. He was very unhappy there. He never

got along with Hodges. He was not used properly.

Anybody could see the greatness in him. Somehow

or other he was never used in turn, something would

come up, a rainout, an injury, anything to disrupt

his schedule. They never explained anything to him.

Nolan never talked negatively about anybody, but

you could see he was unhappy."

roger_that
Jul 03 2022 01:12 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

One of the oddities about the Cardwell chapter that I became aware of recently was that Cardwell's breakout season, 1961, which is described accurately and in great detail



He won a career- high 15 games for the 1961

Cubs and "finished over .500 for the first time despite

the Cubs winning just 64 times and finishing seventh

for the second straight year. Cardwell led the Cubs

in ERA (3.82), complete games (13), and strikeouts

(156). His 38 starts were the most in the National

League that year



neglects to mention that Cardwell arguably might have deserved the NL's Cy Young Award that year, if the NL had had one (there was just one for MLB), at least measured by WAR. Yes, Cardwell had the NL's best WAR for a pitcher in 1961 (appropriately, 6.1 WAR) but he got no notice not only because there was no WAR back then but because he pitched for a bad team in Wrigley Field, giving him a so-so W-L record (15-14) and a none-too-fancy ERA. He was, in other words, performing at a stellar level in 1961, but he never made the All-Star team in that or any other year.



I came across this information in an article about an even weirder fact, that the AL WAR crown in 1961 was (retrospectively, of course) won by Jack (who?) Kralick, another Cardwell-level type of pitcher, mainly as I recall with the Twins and Indians, pitching in the rotation most years but with substantial relief work, but never thought of as a star pitcher. The actual CYA went to Whitey Ford, a far better pitcher than either Cardwell or Kralick, but maybe not in 1961.

roger_that
Jul 03 2022 02:44 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Jul 03 2022 04:18 PM

Caught an error in the Bud Harrelson chapter!!! On the groundball that resulted in the infamous Pete Rose-Harrelson fracas, the Mets' first baseman is identified as "Eddie Milner," a later outfielder for the Reds, I believe, who never was a Met, instead of "John Milner," who was. Later "Koosman" is spelled with a 'z'--sloppy proofreading job, I'd say. But it's a good chapter, up to date on Bud's Alzheimer's diagnosis. It refers to Art Shamsky's terrific memoir, AFTER THE MIRACLE, so maybe this was written fast and proofed faster?





edit: typo

batmagadanleadoff
Jul 03 2022 03:11 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Or it could be that they simply don't know how to spell "Koosman" over there. You do, though, obviously.



Keep up the good work. This is riveting stuff. Meanwhile, I'll see if I can chip in by unearthing other spelling errors for our fascination, even though I'm fairly certain that you'll beat me to finding more spelling errors. Happy Hominen.

Edgy MD
Jul 03 2022 03:25 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Eddie Milner, of course, is John's cousin.



Catching errors is important.

batmagadanleadoff
Jul 03 2022 03:38 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edited 2 time(s), most recently on Jul 03 2022 04:11 PM






neglects to mention that Cardwell arguably might have deserved the NL's Cy Young Award that year, if the NL had had one....



I came across this information in an article about an even weirder fact, that the AL WAR crown in 1961 was (retrospectively, of course) won by Jack (who?) Kralick, another Cardwell-level type of pitcher, mainly as I recall with the Twins and Indians, pitching in the rotation most years but with substantial relief work, but never thought of as a star pitcher. The actual CYA went to Whitey Ford, a far better pitcher than either Cardwell or Kralick, but maybe not in 1961.


The voters were way more often, wrong than right when awarding the baseball hardware back then. And when the voters got it right, it was either because the award winner had a thoroughly dominant season, leading in virtually all of the important statistical categories - or because the voters, from sheer luck, blundered into the right answer.



And to tie all of this into the theme of this thread, Tom Seaver didn't deserve his 1969 Cy Young award. He wasn't better than Bob Gibson that season. But Seaver led the NL in Wins, and Wins meant everything to the voters back then. A pitcher who led his league in Wins was probably the favorite to win the CYA back then. And if that pitcher also happened to pitch for a first place team, like Seaver did, he was a virtual lock for the award. Plus, Seaver had the better back story, the leader, not just on the field but spiritually as well, of the team that captured the imagination of the whole wide world with their fairy-tale climb to the top of the baseball world. Gibson should have won the CYA in three straight seasons. But instead, Seaver was awarded the 1969 CYA, essentially because in that season, Seaver's teammates played better than Gibson's teammates.



But decide for yourselves. Click on the link and expand the leaderboards.



https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/1969-pitching-leaders.shtml

batmagadanleadoff
Jul 03 2022 03:41 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edgy MD wrote:

Eddie Milner, of course, is John's cousin.



Catching errors is important.


Yes. And I'm happy to report your error free post. Although, if you were writing about the errors a catcher makes on the field, It would be: "Catching errors are important."

Frayed Knot
Jul 03 2022 07:10 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!


Iowa has weird town names, or at least memorable ones. In addition to having "Lost Nation" seared into my brain, the hometown of Jack Hamilton, Morning Sun, is similarly seared, mainly because it was Bob Murphy's practice to mention them every time ...


Hamilton's NYC tenure was both earlier and briefer than McAndrew's so I don't remember the Morning Sun mentions the way I did Lost Nation, hence that town not being on the sight-seeing itinerary.

roger_that
Jul 04 2022 08:11 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

I mainly enjoy books about Mets history for nostalgic reasons. I don't often learn new things from them, mostly I get reminded of things I once knew but have forgotten (Shamsky's memoir provided some welcome exceptions--there were at least four stories I'd never heard before) but there was a detail in the MIRACLE HAS LANDED book that totally caught me by surprise, that of Ed Kranepool's first appearance on a Mets roster, in a Mets uni, ready to play in a major league game. I had thought for sixty years that Kranepool first appeared as a late September callup, and this is verified by bbref.com which lists his MLB debut as September 22, 1962 but I just found out that he had been put on the active roster the week he signed with the Mets, and



flew out to Los Angeles—his first plane ride—to join the Mets, who

were facing the Dodgers on June 30.



This was a big day in Mets history, actually, or MLB history anyway since Kranepool's



first day

in a Mets uniform was only a harbinger of what his

experiences would be in those early years with the

team, as he watched Sandy Koufax no- hit his new

teammates





And he nearly got into that game, too, as



manager Casey Stengel went to the bench

late in the game, but passed over the rookie in favor

of Gene Woodling.



As with my mystification about Jack DiLauro's spot on the 1969 Series roster when, because he appeared in no games, he doesn't show up on official records, I wonder where I could get documentation. There are other "ghost" Mets, who appear on the official roster but never played a game as a Met, but they're all, as far as I can recall, spring training guys, or guys who were acquired in November and traded in December, or maybe they were acquired but chose not to report or something of the sort (?) but Kranepool is the only player I know of who sat on the bench for a week or so in full uniform prepared to get into a game but did not. (In June or July--he later did make a few appearances in a Met uniform.) I'm satisfied that Kranepool's ghostly incarnation is accurate (he apparently has been describing it in print for decades) but where are things like this documented? I suppose I could look in old newspaper files or the like, if I were really curious.



I think Kranepool is the only signee this happened to, but I could be wrong. Anyone know if other players signed a contract out of high school and reported to the Mets as members of the 25-man team other than Kranepool? It seems kind of nutty, in retrospect, a nineteenth-century sort of thing, one step above hauling guys out of the grandstand to play a MLB game. I wonder who vacated a spot on the roster to allow Kranepool onto it.

Edgy MD
Jul 04 2022 08:50 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

I'm pretty sure G-Fafif, without checking notes, can rattle off a list of what you call "ghost" Mets (aka "paper Mets") who made it to the big league roster, but didn't get into a game. Thus far, 2022 has given us Gosuke Katoh.



Some years back, we had a thread about a blog post in which Keith Olberman declares Wilbur Huckle to have been a big leaguer on paper, an assertion that researchers in this group couldn't support.

batmagadanleadoff
Jul 04 2022 10:56 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edgy MD wrote:

I'm pretty sure G-Fafif, without checking notes, can rattle off a list of what you call "ghost" Mets (aka "paper Mets") who made it to the big league roster, but didn't get into a game. Thus far, 2022 has given us Gosuke Katoh.



Some years back, we had a thread about a blog post in which Keith Olberman declares Wilbur Huckle to have been a big leaguer on paper, an assertion that researchers in this group couldn't support.


Here are your ghost Mets, which I am rattling off from memory. I got stuck for a while on Anderson Garcia. He's always the last one to come to mind. It took me about 45 seconds to come up with his name after I recalled all of the others. If you want some documentation -- because you know, memories fade -- you can ask Brian Ostrosser. The last time Ostrosser came over to my house for dinner, I gave him a notarized affirmation, sworn to under oath and under the penalties of perjury, listing and documenting the Mets ghosts. They are:



Terrel Hansen, Jim Bibby, , Al Reyes, Ruddy Lugo, Jerry (or is it Gerry? or both?) Moses, Randy Bobb, Billy Cotton, Mac Suzuki and the aforementioned Anderson Garcia.

Edgy MD
Jul 04 2022 11:00 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

And Gosuke Katoh.

batmagadanleadoff
Jul 04 2022 11:10 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Edgy MD wrote:

And Gosuke Katoh.


He was already mentioned.

roger_that
Jul 06 2022 05:18 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Not sure how the count of threads in the Baseball Forum has shrunk itself back to 1935 but I'm not starting a new 1969 thread when that number approaches again.



In the Seaver chapter, the story of June 15, 1977 is well summarized and well-told, from specific dollar amounts down to the Ruth Ryan fakeout that Dick Young perpetuated on The Franchise:



After Seaver won in Houston on June 12, the

Mets offered to extend his contract so that it would

be comparable to a free- agent offering elsewhere. He

would receive a three- year extension which included

a pay raise to $300,000 in 1979 and then to $400,000

in 1980 and 1981. On June 14, one day before the

trading deadline, Seaver contacted McDonald to

halt trade negotiations with the Reds. He planned to

remain a Met.



Conventional wisdom suggests that if something

sounds too good to be true, it often is. After he

agreed in principle to a three- year contract extension

with the Mets, the ordeal appeared over for Seaver.

However, as he read the Daily News on the road in

Atlanta, he became appalled by the latest offensive

launched from Dick Young's typewriter:

“Nolan Ryan is getting more now than Seaver,

and that galls Tom because Nancy Seaver and Ruth

Ryan are very friendly and Tom Seaver long has

treated Nolan Ryan like a little brother.” As Seaver

told Bruce Markusen years later, his welcome mat

with M. Donald Grant had finally run out. Incensed

that Young would pull a false punch aimed at his

family, Seaver bolted in search of public- relations

director Arthur Richman. “Get me out of here!” he

ordered Richman, “and tell Joe McDonald everything

I said last night is forgotten.”



One thing was going on here, looking at those contract figures, is that while Seaver was justified in seeking a huge contract and multi-year deals, baseball salaries were accelerating so fast at the time, that the Mets would have been smart to meet his "demands" at every step of the way. They did just that, as I recall, which is what got them and Seaver into this predicament. I believe Seaver had asked for a gigantic salary. and got it, before 1977, but the problem from his perspective was that the top salary in baseball got left in the dust, and so he asked for the "three-year extension which included a pay raise to $300,000 in 1979 and then to $400,000 in 1980 and 1981." The sticking point here, as I recall, is that by 1981, 400K was peanuts and Seaver would have again been badly underpaid, yet he would have been getting what he was asking for in the winter of 1976-7. I guess the answer was to keep extending his deal, one year at a time, at top dollar.



M.Donald Grant was an idiot, of course, not to jump at Seaver's demands and sign him instantly for what he was asking, but he played it wrong, dragging negotiations out, and making nasty remarks in the press to the effect of "He's under contract now, and we don't sign multi-year deals because we could lose money if Seaver's arm falls off, so ha ha ha on him." But it really wouldn't have taken very much, in terms of either money or of smarts, to lock Seaver up for life. And this chapter sums a complicated situation up very neatly.

roger_that
Jul 15 2022 01:11 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Kranepool is the only player I know of who sat on the bench for a week or so in full uniform prepared to get into a game but did not. (In June or July--he later did make a few appearances in a Met uniform.) I'm satisfied that Kranepool's ghostly incarnation is accurate (he apparently has been describing it in print for decades) but where are things like this documented? I suppose I could look in old newspaper files or the like, if I were really curious.



I think Kranepool is the only signee this happened to, but I could be wrong. Anyone know if other players signed a contract out of high school and reported to the Mets as members of the 25-man team other than Kranepool? It seems kind of nutty, in retrospect, a nineteenth-century sort of thing, one step above hauling guys out of the grandstand to play a MLB game. I wonder who vacated a spot on the roster to allow Kranepool onto it.


Came across this article on FB about 1962 roster moves, which mentions Kranepool's getting called up from Syracuse in July (he didn't, ultimately) and I'm wondering if anyone knows how (other than reading old newspapers) you might learn which players got sent down to, or called up from, or released, or signed, or traded, put on the DL, or whatever. Does this data exist anywhere?





[url]https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10228316682330201&set=gm.10160359230853217

MFS62
Jul 15 2022 01:38 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Under the rules at the time, first year players had to be retained on the major league roster or be exposed to the draft at the end of the year. You were allowed to option one other player.

IIRC, they kept Kranepool in the majors, optioned Cleon Jones, and lost Paul Blair in the draft.

Not sure what happened to the three other first year players they signed, but did not keep.

Later

roger_that
Jul 15 2022 02:47 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

Thanks, but I'm hoping to find a site that tracks with OCD precision every single roster change, and the dates, of every MLB team, or at least the Mets. Sort of like the Transactions part of BB-ref, which tracks only trades, FA signings, releases and the like. I want one, preferably run by a crew of anal-retentives, that traces every minute adjustment that teams (or the Mets) have ever made. From reading the CPF, I can easily imagine the controversies, speculations, arguments, discussions, that accompanied each one at the time.

Fman99
Jul 15 2022 08:56 PM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

I can remember watching Mac Suzuki warming up in the bullpen for a game in which he obviously never appeared

MFS62
Jul 16 2022 07:04 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

=roger_that post_id=99896 time=1657918052 user_id=128]
Thanks, but I'm hoping to find a site that tracks with OCD precision every single roster change, and the dates, of every MLB team, or at least the Mets. Sort of like the Transactions part of BB-ref, which tracks only trades, FA signings, releases and the like. I want one, preferably run by a crew of anal-retentives, that traces every minute adjustment that teams (or the Mets) have ever made. From reading the CPF, I can easily imagine the controversies, speculations, arguments, discussions, that accompanied each one at the time.



I believe every transaction for all teams was listed in The Sporting News' annual Baseball Guide. I threw my collection out a few years ago when all of the information I was keeping them for was in Baseball-reference.com.

I don't know if that is even published any more or if old copies are available on-line.

Not sure if it had the granularity of detail you'd like, but you might want to try.



Later

ashie62
Jul 16 2022 07:12 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

At that time the Sporting News annuals were the bible for most things.

roger_that
Jul 16 2022 07:19 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!

all of the information I was keeping them for was in Baseball-reference.com.


Obviously, not "all."





Sounds like they probably have these annuals at the library in Cooperstown.

MFS62
Jul 16 2022 07:30 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!


all of the information I was keeping them for was in Baseball-reference.com.


Obviously, not "all."




Read the complete sentence, "all of the information I was keeping them for".

I was trying to help.

Later

roger_that
Jul 16 2022 07:33 AM
Re: 1969!!!!!!



all of the information I was keeping them for was in Baseball-reference.com.


Obviously, not "all."




Read the complete sentence, "all of the information I was keeping them for".

I was trying to help.

Later


Fair enough.