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Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Benjamin Grimm Aug 12 2022 05:00 PM

PEDs.

soupcan Aug 12 2022 05:07 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

That's quite a gut-punch for the Padres.

Frayed Knot Aug 12 2022 05:24 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

At least this doesn't come on the heels of something stupid like crashing a motorcycle. Oh wait ... So how's that $325mil decision looking now?

metsmarathon Aug 12 2022 05:48 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Holy shit.

Fman99 Aug 12 2022 05:48 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Good thing they picked up Soto, then, I guess.

seawolf17 Aug 12 2022 06:14 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Holy shit indeed. Wow.

Edgy MD Aug 12 2022 06:27 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Had he been activated?

Frayed Knot Aug 12 2022 06:30 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Edgy MD wrote: Had he been activated? No, but he was on the verge of doing so.

TransMonk Aug 12 2022 06:44 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

#lolpods

Frayed Knot Aug 12 2022 06:53 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

So this will peg his return to about a month into next year [50-ish remaining + the first 30 next year] meaning that stupidity [motorcycles + drugs] is going cause him to miss just shy of 200 consecutive games. Way to make your team regret making you their face and their highest paid player before you even had 100 ML games under your belt; making MLB regret making you the face of the game, and embarrassing your father while we're at it.

The Hot Corner Aug 12 2022 07:00 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Stupid is as stupid does.

G-Fafif Aug 12 2022 07:32 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Cano's stay in San Diego was brief, but his influence endures.

Frayed Knot Aug 12 2022 07:36 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Cano, Tatis, Bonds, Boone (Bret at least): steroid using second (and third) generation players.

soupcan Aug 12 2022 07:42 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games! Edited 1 time(s), most recently on Aug 12 2022 07:43 PM

=G-Fafif post_id=103653 time=1660354343 user_id=55] Cano's stay in San Diego was brief, but his influence endures.

Ka-pow.

kcmets Aug 12 2022 07:43 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

I don't know why at this point, but it always amazes me they think they can beat the system somehow to get an edge and it blows up in their face.

Frayed Knot Aug 12 2022 08:34 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

So I'm guessing that that those Dairy Queen commercials with Tatis & Bryce Harper are now out of circulation for a while.

roger_that Aug 13 2022 10:17 AM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

This only reinforces my position against signing long term contracts with anyone, no matter how young and stellar. if you're going to get burned on a deal, better to get burned on a Scherzer style deal, a ton of money with no long term commitment, and preferably for a pitcher rather than a position player. I was prepared to walk away from Soto and a lifetime contract, and now I think the Mets did a smart thing in doing so.

Benjamin Grimm Aug 13 2022 11:18 AM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

The Mets didn't "walk away from Soto and a lifetime contract". They opted not to trade for a player who has two and a half years before free agency. It's not like there was a contract on the table with Soto, a player they never even had a right to talk to, and they withdrew it.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 13 2022 11:24 AM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

=roger_that post_id=103723 time=1660407451 user_id=128] I was prepared to walk away from Soto and a lifetime contract, and now I think the Mets did a smart thing in doing so.

You were prepared to walk away? I didn't know that you were in on the Soto negotiations, assuming the Mets even had a shot.



And the Mets did a smart thing in not acquiring Soto, assuming they even had a shot, because of Tatis' PED suspension? That's like saying the Mets did the smart thing when they traded away Nolan Ryan because Dennis Ribant didn't amount to much after the Mets traded him.

Edgy MD Aug 13 2022 11:26 AM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

The only things that's worse than long-term contracts are short-term ones. But that's the game. Risk is everywhere.

MFS62 Aug 13 2022 11:40 AM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Frayed Knot wrote: Cano, Tatis, Bonds, Boone (Bret at least): steroid using second (and third) generation players. Forgot that Robinson Cano's dad was (briefly) a major league pitcher. Dale Berra was caught using drugs, but that was for cocaine. Later

Edgy MD Aug 13 2022 11:50 AM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Todd Hundley, too. And Garry Matthews, Jr.

metsmarathon Aug 13 2022 11:52 AM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

=roger_that post_id=103723 time=1660407451 user_id=128] This only reinforces my position against signing long term contracts with anyone, no matter how young and stellar.

Didn't we give like the exact same contract to Francisco Lindor like a few days later?

Marshmallowmilkshake Aug 13 2022 11:58 AM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

How did he get ringworm? And why not just go to the team doctor for a prescription? His story is goofy.

roger_that Aug 13 2022 11:59 AM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

We need to be sparing in signing long-term deals. You get burned on most of them, and burned badly on some. Pitchers especially, but I'm very leery about them in general. Of course the Mets walked away from Soto, when they dropped out of the bidding. I soured on the deal when it was apparent that most of the top prospects would be going to Washington, and then the matter of his contract needs would have to be addressed sooner rather than later. The smart thing might have been to trade the prospects, let him walk when he hit free agency, and hope you got a championship or two out of it, but signing him to a 15 year contract was always going to be a big mistake.

Edgy MD Aug 13 2022 12:35 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Risk aversion is natural. But risk cannot be avoided, only managed. Some degree must be accepted. It's all in the game.

roger_that Aug 13 2022 01:43 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Edgy MD wrote: Risk aversion is natural. But risk cannot be avoided, only managed. Some degree must be accepted. It's all in the game. Agreed. But some risks that people take are foolish. They have no chance of working out, or practically none, and people take them anyway. Signing players to expensive longterm deals is one of those. They're foolish deals for teams, if relatively safe for the men to make those deals, GMs. GMs understand that when such deals turn sour, as most will, they're going to be GMing another team by then, or selling cars, or retired or dead, so for them it's a relatively safe prospect, signing a healthy 25-year star player to a 15-year contract for a bazillion bucks of someone else's money. But for the teams, for the fans, for the organizations it's a formula for categorical disaster.

Edgy MD Aug 13 2022 01:48 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

I disagree that signing players to expensive longterm deals has no chance of working out, or practically none.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 13 2022 01:56 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Edgy MD wrote: Risk aversion is natural. But risk cannot be avoided, only managed. Some degree must be accepted. It's all in the game. This. There's risk in everything. But to say that the Mets were right in not getting Soto or that the Soto acquisition would have been awful because after the Soto trade, Tatis was just suspended is ludicrous. The Yankees have been signing players to long term contracts for decades now, including just past their prime players who'd no doubt be greatly diminished by the end of the contract and they're doing about as well as any team in baseball over the last 30 years, probably better than every other team. If the Mets signed Soto, Cohen's annual liquid net worth would only be $11.970 billion instead of $12 billion.

roger_that Aug 13 2022 02:22 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Edgy MD wrote: I disagree that signing players to expensive longterm deals has no chance of working out, or practically none. Well, all I need do to show you my point is to exaggerate the length of a long-term contract. If I sign 24 year old Juan Soto to a top-dollar deal through age 40, that makes sense to you. How about if it's through age 41, though? Still good? 42? 45? After some point (and I'll suggest that may that point is more like early 30s than 40s) it becomes a disaster, just speaking logically. After that point you're willing, I think, to concede that, yeah, there is very little value in the contract for you. We're just disagreeing about where that cutoff point is, and I'll remind you that the owner may be saying , "It's ok, I can afford it," and the GM is saying "I'm going to be long gone by the time this deal blows up," but the team is going to be taking it in the nuts. It's a little different if the team were willing to reduce the player to a role player when his talents diminish, but most teams are going to insist that the star salary warrants star playing time for at least three years of that player's often sharp decline.

Gwreck Aug 13 2022 02:27 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Edgy MD wrote: I disagree that signing players to expensive longterm deals has no chance of working out, or practically none. “Working out” is doing a lot of work in that argument though. What is does it mean to “work out?” There are plenty of long term contracts that could be recast as paying extra for prime years and zero for later years. If thought of in that fashion, they're quite a bit more palatable.

Edgy MD Aug 13 2022 02:50 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Edgy MD wrote: I disagree that signing players to expensive longterm deals has no chance of working out, or practically none. Well, all I need do to show you my point is to exaggerate the length of a long-term contract. Well all I need to do to show you my point is to exaggerate the number of homers he'll hit, championships he will be the difference in, and dollars he'll earn for his employers, but then we're not talking about facts any more. If I sign 24 year old Juan Soto to a top-dollar deal through age 40, that makes sense to you. I didn't write that. I thought we were discussing long-term deals in general. You can make up this random not-yet-existent future and define all the outcomes that haven't happened yet that you want, but please let me represent my own positions. Edgy MD wrote: I disagree that signing players to expensive longterm deals has no chance of working out, or practically none. “Working out” is doing a lot of work in that argument though. What is does it mean to “work out?” Mr. roger_that made the "working out" argument. If he's willing, he can clarify his meaning. I know what the term means to me, but you are also welcome to define terms and see if others will bite.

roger_that Aug 13 2022 03:23 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Edgy MD wrote: let me represent my own positions. I wish you would.

Edgy MD Aug 13 2022 03:25 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Well, you're the first person in a long time who wants me to write more, but which statement of mine would you like me to back up or clarify?

Frayed Knot Aug 13 2022 04:27 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

I remember doing a lengthy 'analysis' of long term deals ... probably going back to the MoFo days of the late '90s I recall there being more bad than good with naturally some in between as well. Randy Johnson (ARZ) was one of the best. More recently, the National's FA deal for Scherzer was great for the team and in both cases the players were already in the back side of their careers when the contracts began. As in trades and drafts and which prospects to keep and which to deal, you've got to pick the right ones. As the most important lesson from Moneyball said, it's easier to recover from the players you fail to sign than it is from the ones you sign at the wrong price. This is particularly so for Oakland and other smaller revenue teams but the idea remains true. Then there are the pre-FA long-term contracts of which the Braves are big believers having already given long term deals to - Ozzie Albies: 7 year deal signed in April '19 for $35 million when Albies was just 22 y/o and with about 1-1/4 yrs of ML service under his belt - Ronald Acuna: 8 years/$100 also signed in April '19. Acuna was 21 and was not yet even one full season of ML service - Austin Riley: 10 years/$212, signed just this month. Riley is a comparatively old man at 25 and with ~3 years ML time, hence the higher numbers. He also could be the NL MVP this year. Assuming all these work out (and they have so far) the Braves could have 20-something stars at three positions for well under market rates for years to come. They took the same strategy in the early 2010's although those deals turned out to be more a mixed bag at which point they quickly pivoted and got out from under them as fast as they could.

Edgy MD Aug 13 2022 04:29 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Teams get salary relief for suspended players, so in many ways (clearly not all) a PED suspension can be a win for them.

Frayed Knot Aug 13 2022 04:36 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Except that Tatis is still in the (relative) chump change period of his deal. 2022 salary = $5mil of the $340mil total (1.4%) and whatever portion of '23 he misses is at a rate of $7mil, so not much savings for a guy who they've already paid 2/3 of this year's salary to do nothing as a result of the motorcycle accident (unless that was ruled a breach of contract). The $20+ and $30+ years don't start kicking in until 2025

roger_that Aug 13 2022 05:19 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Edgy MD wrote: Well, you're the first person in a long time who wants me to write more, but which statement of mine would you like me to back up or clarify? Oh, you can start anywhere you choose. If you're going to denounce the Soto deal, then do so, but you can't denounce it while defending the generic 15-year deal for a 24 year old superstar, or vice versa. If you want to go that path, then I don't particularly care to discuss baseball, or anything else, with you. That's just too casuistic for my debating skills. As for me, I'll cite specific long term star signings that have blown up on the teams foolish enough to go for them: Albert Pujols, Jason Heyward, and then you've players like Adrian Gonzalex whose OPS+ nosedived 25 points as soon as the Dodgers signed him to his big payday. In previous generations, sure-thing young superstars like Tony Conigliaro and Tony Oliva and Orlando Cepeda missed seasons and huge chunks of their projected careers to injuries, and they certainly could have signed big long term contracts if such had been available to them. You've got to be rich, lucky, and smart to sign anyone to a ten-year deal at top dollar, and it won't work out as often as paying and promoting your own players will. Fans mourn when their team fails to sign a major deal but often enough for me the team that succeeds in signing one of these regrets having done so, sometimes sooner than later.

Edgy MD Aug 13 2022 05:43 PM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Edgy MD wrote: Well, you're the first person in a long time who wants me to write more, but which statement of mine would you like me to back up or clarify? If you're going to denounce the Soto deal, then do so, but you can't denounce it while defending the generic 15-year deal for a 24 year old superstar, or vice versa. I denounced the Soto deal? What Soto deal? If you don't want to exchange with me, don't. I haven't been dishonest or unkind and I don't know what the problem is here.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 14 2022 10:27 AM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Edgy MD wrote: Teams get salary relief for suspended players, so in many ways (clearly not all) a PED suspension can be a win for them. Not only that, but the Padres might be looking into whether they can now void Tatis' entire contract.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 14 2022 10:38 AM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Edgy MD wrote: Well, you're the first person in a long time who wants me to write more, but which statement of mine would you like me to back up or clarify? That's just too casuistic for my debating skills. What debating skills? Like when I thoroughly destroyed you after you twice ambushed and picked fights with me, so in a last ditch effort, you resorted to pulling out your "Do you know who I am?" card, further embarrassing yourself by bragging about once being published, as if that was supposed to earn you a victory in our brouhaha? Or when I mocked your ridiculous question about who's the Mets 8th centerfielder, and you responded by asking the mods to red light that post? Or when your silly idea to abolish the infield fly rule was so thoroughly debunked, you resorted to insulting the entire forum out of frustration by calling us all "hidebound"? And it was revealed that you didn't even have a solid understanding of how the rule even worked in the first place. Some debater.

Edgy MD Aug 14 2022 10:50 AM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Hey, I believe the abolition movement was instigated by me.

batmagadanleadoff Aug 14 2022 10:53 AM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

Edgy MD wrote: Hey, I believe the abolition movement was instigated by me. Yeah, but you didnt embarrass yourself or insult everybody when your arguments failed to persuade.

Edgy MD Aug 14 2022 10:53 AM Re: Tatis suspended for 80 games!

I'm so proud.