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Where do they find these guys?

Frayed Knot Aug 18 2022 02:41 PM

Prior to Wednesday night's game the Braves signed Eddie Harris II, who is the youngest player in MLB and has just 72 games under his belt, to a seven year contract. That puts him in a group with: - Ronald Acuna: 24 y/o, 8 yrs thru '26 + options - Austin Riley: 25 y/o, 10 yr deal thru '32 - Ozzie Albies: 25 y/o, 7 yrs thru '25 + options They've got other big deals as well but I'm focusing on the pre-FA (even pre-arb) deals for young players. And we all know these contracts are a bit of a risk, but if the player(s) does well it gives the club not just cost certainty but a very friendly number once those late arb-years and/or early FA-years they bought out start kicking in just as the deals are winding up. But I didn't really come here to talk about the contracts so much as I did how Atlanta keeps coming up with players who, even though often not 'blue-chip' amateurs (1st round picks and/or high-bonus int'l offers) who wind up not just being good but real good real quickly practically right out of the box. Harris, as mentioned, is currently the youngest player in the league (21 in March) even though just a 3rd round (98th overall) draft pick in 2019 who, like all minor leaguers, lost the 2020 season to Covid at least as far as true game action went. Riley at least was a 1st round pick (2015) but 41st overall so hardly a guarantee. Albies & Acuna were int'l signings, don't remember either being super high bonus types. And now their most recent call-up, Vaughn Grissom filling in at 2nd, is the 3rd youngest player in the league, and while as far as I know they're not in hot contract talks with him, in his first eight ML games so far she's hitting .414 w/power. And he was an 11th round pick out of HS in 2019 yet was on the express track as well and now has hit the ground running.. Just to put it in a bit of perspective, he and Harris are about 15 months younger than Baty & Vientos. And Atlanta has a history of aggressively pushing their guys through the minors which pre-dates the current front office. Andruw Jones was in the big leagues at 19. Raffy Furcal also comes to mind (though I think it turned out he was slightly older than claimed). Francoeur, Jason Hayward, etc. So my question: How the Fuck are they doing this?!?!? - maybe they're simply better at finding guys, although, like every team, they've also had their share of high draft picks who missed. - and if Harris & Grissom, for instance, looked that great to them, why pass on them multiple times and risk missing out? - or maybe they're simply better at developing players? - are they on to something with this aggressive promotion they do?

MFS62 Aug 18 2022 03:39 PM Re: Where do they find these guys?

I've always felt their player development program (scouting, drafting, coaching) is excellent in terms of both quality and quantity. When they have an immediate need, it seems they can just dip into the minors to fill that need instead of having to resort to signing 30+ year old free agents or AAAA players. (Maybe just my impression) I've also have been more than a bit [CROSSOUT]pissed[/CROSSOUT] envious that some Mets prospects haven't been developed as well (as the Braves) from when they were signed and moved up through the organization. Later DISCLAIMER: No animals were injured in creation of this post. It only represents my opinion and may be factually wrong. But if someone wants to track every Mets draft pick vs every Braves draft pick back to 1962, be my guest.

Edgy MD Aug 18 2022 04:28 PM Re: Where do they find these guys?

Acuña signed with the Braves in 2014 for $100,000. The same day, they signed outfielder Juan Yepez for $1,000,000. Yepez just deputed this year for St. Louis. Not doing badly. Not great. But very few others among the highest bonuses from that international class have broken through. Huascar Ynoa, still a not-yet-effective yo-yo with Atlanta, got $800,000 from Minnesota. The Yankees went VERY big that season signing not-so-householdy names like: [list] [*]Dermis Garcia, SS/3B, Dominican Republic: $3.2M [*]Nelson Gomez, 3B, Dominican Republic: $2.25M [*]Juan De Leon, OF, Dominican Republic: $2M [*]Jonathan Amundaray, OF, Venezuela: $1.5M [*]Wilkerman Garcia, SS, Venezuela: $1.35M [*]Miguel Flames, C, Venezuela: $1.1M [*] Hyo-Joon Park, SS, South Korea: $1.1M [/list] I won't waste your time summing up each career, but if you guessed it all added up to fuck-all for the Yankees, you would be right.

Edgy MD Aug 18 2022 04:58 PM Re: Where do they find these guys?

More importantly, that season, the Mets signed Venezuelan shortstop Kenny Hernandez for $1,000,000. He played four seasons and never made it above Kingsport. You can see him this season playing for Empire State in the Frontier League, where he is hitting .111. Other Mets signees from that class include catcher Juan Uriarte, infielder Edgardo Fermin ($250,000), thirdbaseman/outfielder Yoel Romero ($300,000), shortstop Hansel Moreno (only $50,000), and outfielder Wagner Lagrange (can't find the bonus). Obviously, the Yankees weren't the only ones who came up empty.

Frayed Knot Aug 18 2022 05:02 PM Re: Where do they find these guys?

There are always going to be hits and misses, especially in the int'l cuz you have to sign those guys so young. And the Braves have had their share of 1st round misses as well and particularly seem to miss more on pitching. The rate of their success though with young position players and the speed at which they hit the ground running seems to set them apart. Eddie Harris had barely 800 minor league PAs over one full season and pieces of two others including less than 200 above A-ball and then enters the majors as a five tool ROY candidate worthy of a long term deal in less than half a season. Grissom, from the same draft and virtually the same age, goes from an 11th round pick to ML in right about 1,000 PAs but less than 100 of those at AA Too soon to call either of these a success but they're succeeding right now. I suppose one could argue that rushing ultimately hurt Francoeur's career [23rd overall pick, in MLB at 21] as he succeeded early via his uber-athleticism but neverfully grasping the strike zone forever capped his progress. Maybe the same with Heyward [14th overall, in MLB at 20]. Both had decent careers but both arguably peaked as rookies. And, perhaps tellingly, the Braves didn't go long term with either. On the current team Dansby Swanson is the odd man out. He'll be FA this winter and will do so coming off his best season but his success had a slower path getting there despite being a 1/1 pick (by ARZ) btw, Harris, Francoeur, and Heyward are, not surprisingly, all from Georgia. For Grissom they went overseas and signed him out of Florida.

Fman99 Aug 18 2022 05:31 PM Re: Where do they find these guys?

I assume they're just better at evading PED testing. I mean, what other explanation is there?

duan Aug 19 2022 04:32 AM Re: Where do they find these guys?

=Fman99 post_id=104516 time=1660865514 user_id=86] I assume they're just better at evading PED testing. I mean, what other explanation is there?

This is quite possible.

Edgy MD Aug 19 2022 07:36 AM Re: Where do they find these guys?

I imagine it is possible. But systemic regime of drugging and evading testing, one that requires teenagers to keep silent, seems tricky to pull off. Ooh, maybe they don't even know they're being dosed!

Ceetar Aug 19 2022 08:14 AM Re: Where do they find these guys?

I assume they're just better at evading PED testing. I mean, what other explanation is there? I mean, their media guide has three guys employed as "Urine Sample Providers" so..

Ceetar Aug 19 2022 08:24 AM Re: Where do they find these guys?

http://www.ceetar.com/optimisticmetsfan/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/atlanta.jpg>

Edgy MD Aug 19 2022 08:27 AM Re: Where do they find these guys?

Go, John Gibbons!!

Willets Point Aug 19 2022 08:28 AM Re: Where do they find these guys?

Edgy MD wrote: Ooh, maybe they don't even know they're being dosed! What's in the vax?!?!

Ceetar Aug 19 2022 08:30 AM Re: Where do they find these guys?

please don't ask what area Alan Butts is supervising.

MFS62 Aug 19 2022 09:08 AM Re: Where do they find these guys?

Edgy MD wrote: I imagine it is possible. But systemic regime of drugging and evading testing, one that requires teenagers to keep silent, seems tricky to pull off. Ooh, maybe they don't even know they're being dosed! Player: '"Why doesn't my baseball cap fit any more?" Minor league coach: "You're just growing, kid". Later

vtmet7 Aug 24 2022 06:15 PM Re: Where do they find these guys?

the braves did also cheat or bend the rules in order to stock their farm system...and when caught, they didn't really have that severe of a penalty

Frayed Knot Aug 24 2022 07:58 PM Re: Where do they find these guys?

=vtmet7 post_id=105260 time=1661386524 user_id=80] the braves did also cheat or bend the rules in order to stock their farm system...and when caught, they didn't really have that severe of a penalty

If you've got details on that I'd be interested. I either don't know or don't remember that story.



But the fact remains that Harris & Grissom were drafted in the 3rd & 11th rounds of the 2019 draft and now, as the youngest and third youngest players

in MLB (both are about 15 months younger than Baty & Vientos) and with around 300 ABs combined above A-ball, one is going to be NY RoY while the

one that isn't is currently hitting over .400

So it's not like other teams didn't have shots at those guys too. But the Braves have a habit of not just finding these guys but also speed-racing them to

the big leagues where they somehow hit the ground running. And at the moment they've not only got a great lineup but have over half of them locked up

to team-friendly rates through most of the 2020's

MFS62 Aug 25 2022 04:51 AM Re: Where do they find these guys?

It may be the difference in scouting approach. Some teams look at a young player, see room for improvement and have a high ceiling. Some scouts look at a player who is mostly developed and has a high floor. If the team can develop that player beyond that, even better. The Brave seem to find, and then develop, players in that second category. The fact that they seem to find many of them in Georgia makes me wonder if other teams are scouting players there. (Yes, Jay Payton went to Georgia Tech, but he was obvious - I think he led the NCAA in batting) Later

Frayed Knot Aug 25 2022 06:34 AM Re: Where do they find these guys?

Everybody scouts everywhere. There aren't a lot of secrets in the world of elite amateur talent and the days of a scout offering some unknown kid a deal because he liked his arm when he saw him throwing rocks at crows back behind his barn somewhere are long gone if they even existed at all. The bigger mystery is the speed in which these non-elite draft picks (3rd & 11th rounds) rocket through the minors (essentially skipping AA & AAA) and then not just succeed but thrive at the major league level. Harris will almost certainly be RoY and is likely to see MVP votes while Grissom, at this rate, might be 2nd in RoY despite only being called up on August 10th.

vtmet7 Aug 25 2022 04:08 PM Re: Where do they find these guys?

Frayed Knot wrote: the braves did also cheat or bend the rules in order to stock their farm system...and when caught, they didn't really have that severe of a penalty If you've got details on that I'd be interested. I either don't know or don't remember that story. But the fact remains that Harris & Grissom were drafted in the 3rd & 11th rounds of the 2019 draft and now, as the youngest and third youngest players in MLB (both are about 15 months younger than Baty & Vientos) and with around 300 ABs combined above A-ball, one is going to be NY RoY while the one that isn't is currently hitting over .400 So it's not like other teams didn't have shots at those guys too. But the Braves have a habit of not just finding these guys but also speed-racing them to the big leagues where they somehow hit the ground running. And at the moment they've not only got a great lineup but have over half of them locked up to team-friendly rates through most of the 2020's here's 2 examples of what I was referring to, and if they got noticed in both of these instances, how much did they do that didn't get noticed? https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32600372/agent-scott-boras-tanking-mlb-competitive-cancer-led-atlanta-braves-world-series-title https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-hands-braves-penalties-for-signings-c262279086 and those articles don't even mention when the Braves purposely tanked, selling off most of their veteran players other than Freddie Freeman

metsmarathon Aug 25 2022 04:30 PM Re: Where do they find these guys?

the boras one isn't the braves doing anything untoward to enhance their farm system - its the braves sending draft picks and prospects to teams that are dumping veterans. the braves tanking to build their system in the past is also not untoward, no matter how much we dislike that approach. fact is, it works. the international signing thing, sure. but i doubt they're alone in that regard. not by a long shot.

vtmet7 Aug 25 2022 04:38 PM Re: Where do they find these guys?

the international signing thing is part of the cheating aspect...and the Braves purposely tanking to get better draft picks (and to dump veterans like Shelby Miller for prospects like Dansby Swanson) or other teams purposely tanking while giving up veterans to the Braves playoff runs, is part of the "bending the rules"...while it's legal, it still isn't right...Bowie Kuhn probably would not approve of when teams tank, or sell off their best players https://www.lexisnexis.com/community/casebrief/p/casebrief-charles-o-finley-co-v-kuhn

Frayed Knot Aug 25 2022 05:37 PM Re: Where do they find these guys?

All Boras is saying in that first linked article is that the Braves helped win their WS with good trades at the deadline. Nothing illegal or even remotely shady about anything there. Trades for those players were available for anyone. The second one was a bigger deal (which I don't remember) but the penalties for it don't seem inconsequential: forfeiture of 13 international prospects, future restrictions in the int'l market over a three year period, and a loss of a regular draft pick. But whatever they did, it can't explain how they get guys from the drawing board to finished products so quickly and successfully both from non-drafted foreign players (sometimes high bonus, sometimes not) and from less than top draftees.